the first Deus Ex changed my perception of gaming radically, to go into detail would be to repeat most of what has already been discussed above. The second game i enjoyed too, but my faults with it stemmed from some very basic flaws in the physicality of the game itself, namely incredibly bad motion/lip synch in cutscenes, which left you feeling as if you were watching a puppet theatre rather than interacting with a dystopian film noir (sorry, i have been watching blade runner)

Comparison of the two games is difficult, particularly because of the high regard in which the first game is held despite the fact it is not without its flaws-for instance, you are the pinnacle of human/technological integration, a super spy in every sense, but your aim with a ranged weapon is like that of a small child until you upgrade your skill in that area. NOLF 2 had a similar skill system, but at least you could aim properly to begin with.

Regarding DX3, the first question shouldn’t be “is it going to be any good?” it should be “Why do we need another DX?” Sequels rarely stand up to the originals (with a few exceptions such as HL2), in fact another badly made game bearing the DX name will make the original have less impact-and that’s most definitely not a good thing

Freelance Peacekeeping Agent, yes?

seems like this could be a prequel.

Good catch! That would certainly be a solution to the otherwise seemingly intractable problem of following on from the ending(s) of DX2.

But the vent solution is simple and easy and efficient,and people took it every time it turned up and were bored.

That’s because the vent solutions were presented so transparently; at one point an NPC even explains the three possible routes you can take out of a situation, including the vent. You don’t get the joy of finding a well-hidden vent for yourself, exploring, and feeling like you’re coming up with your own creative solutions nearly as much as in DX1.

DX2 also had very little element of mystery compared to the first game. I hope DX3 chucks out all the people constantly spewing lazy pleas into your head and leaves you to work it out yourself for a bit.

Agree with the points above about their unlikeability of most of the characters, which just makes their paths even more obviously mechanical. (I seem to remember enjoying the hologram, though… the character that’s not supposed to be real, natch.)

Still, I don’t hate it. It could have been a lot worse. They could have licensed it out and given us Deus Exxxtreme: JC Denton Radical Skateboard Racing.

But I may well be wrong, it’s been a long time since I watched that ending.

Even the independent ending screws you in that respect when the Omar turn the planet into Fallout 3.

Actually, you’re misremembering. The Omar don’t cause the apocalypse, they’re just the only ones fit enough to survive the mess humanity makes when it doesn’t have strong, guiding hands to lead it towards an eternity of techno-communism/hyper-capitalism/fascism. *snarl*

I’m not nearly as hard on Invisible War as most people, but the fatalism, lack of any ambiguity or hope of those endings really pissed me off.

I think you and I are focusing on separate critical responses to IW. I think the (delayed) negative reaction has completely outweighed the initial reviews, which I agree were too blindly positive. “Name a game that does it better” is a poor defense. All I’m really saying is that there was an overcorrection.

Richard – apologies: I am having this discussion on several other forums/comments threads as well, so am having difficulty remembering what has been said where.

Fairy nuff.

And you can’t take that away from me, IW-Hate-Brigade!

Aha! A challenge! (clicks fingers) SEND IN ZE DOKTOR!

Basically this all boils down to personal preference (what doesn’t?!) – I found that there was a lot of choice in IW, which you admit, but I also found that there getting inspiration to experiment with the choices wasn’t something I found lacking. Evidently I am in the minority – but that was my experience, and that is why I don’t understand the hate.

I thought it provided just as much of a toy-box as the original. I prefer the original because of its story line, length, depth (in terms of interface and conversation trees) French people, and so on, but in terms of the freeform lovin’ that DX is often remembered for – I found enough of that in IW as well. And you can’t take that away from me, IW-Hate-Brigade! :)

Richard: if Invisible War had been an obscure Russian title, it would, if anything, be better regarded than it is now for not being subjected to the massive backlash it received.

No. At best, I think would be regarded like Stalker – a brave attempt, but one that only the hardcore are really going to remember a few years on. Possibly an action-RPG Gothic.

But that’s not the point. The point is that the Deus Ex name was more than a millstone round its neck, especially on launch. In much the same way as a marine will seem to have better AI than a zombie simply by dint of looking human, people mapped their expectations on it both ways. The difference is that while there’s a backlash now, the initial response was very much “It’s Deus Ex, therefore it must be awesome. Even though…”

What really stuck in my mind: the pub conversations at the time it was released didn’t revolve around what was great about it, but rather “Name another game that does it better.”

There weren’t any around t the time, sadly. And wouldn’t be until Bloodlines. But that doesn’t change anything.

I don’t get where this “and at the end of IW none of your choices mattered” thing comes from, anyway

I don’t get where you’re getting that line of argument from. It’s not something that anybody’s said at any point in the thread. However, the endings aren’t a particularly great example to bring up, simply because the only break-point that I remember is whether you help the Templars. Once you get to Liberty Island, you can still pick and choose whatever ending you like. The difference is that instead of making it as a moral, personal call, as Deus Ex invited you to do with its choice of apocalypse, all of Invisible War’s endings are straight up “Pick the incredibly unpleasant people you want to rule the world.” Even the independent ending screws you in that respect when the Omar turn the planet into Fallout 3.

The problem with the choices in it isn’t that they’re not available, it’s that the game does a very bad job of inspiring you to make use of them. Compare… well… any of it to Liberty Island in the first game, where it hands you a toybox and says ‘This is your world – go play!’

It never builds the connection to the world that makes you want to save it – to hate the baddies and connect with the good guys in the way that you could when wandering through Hell’s Kitchen. Where was the scale? Where was the discovery? Where were the set-pieces and the moments that really inspired you to be a hero?

At the risk of sounding like a luvvie, where’s the motivation, dahling?

Really, the biggest moment in the whole game happens in the intro. Nothing you experience as Alex D comes close. Even the nanobot Statue of Liberty – the iconic ending – just splutters.

But the amount of hate it’s generated (which has far eclipsed the initial “pretty good” reviews) has always been way out of proportion with how bad it actually was.

Hate’s too strong a world in most cases. Vivid disappointment is closer to the mark. For my part, I don’t think Invisible War is a mediocre game – I think it’s a bad one. I don’t insist that everyone agrees, and I’ll give it some kudos – it’s an ambitious enough game, no question about that. And I won’t say it doesn’t have some good moments (NG Resonance for instance). And it has the finest comedy line in any serious RPG, thanks to:

Small time? I’m Sophia Sak! I’ll show you small-time. Small time to live!

…which had me howling with laughter in the office. But sadly, that wasn’t enough. Not for a Deus Ex sequel. Not as an individual game in its own right.

And the thing is, there’s no reason for it to not be at least ‘good.’ They had a great story to work with, great characters, setting, and so on. Instead they went “ok, let’s shave this down, remove these key elements from the original (skill points, wow.)”

It would be really interesting to have seen how the game would have fared sans the Deus Ex name.