I Am Become Death, Destroyer Of Virtual Worlds

By Kieron Gillen on January 28th, 2008 at 2:22 pm.

I was going to save this for the Sunday Papers next week, but after Jim and I have a chat, I figure it deserves to talked about all on its lonesome. Julian Dibbell writes an extensive piece for Wired on Griefing, the communities that support it and similar malarkies.

“Pwnage, zerging, phat lewts — online gaming has birthed a rich lexicon. But none, perhaps, deserves our attention as much as the notion of the griefer. Broadly speaking, a griefer is an online version of the spoilsport — someone who takes pleasure in shattering the world of play itself. Not that griefers don’t like online games. It’s just that what they most enjoy about those games is making other players not enjoy them. They are corpse campers, noob baiters, kill stealers, ninja looters. Their work is complete when the victims log off in a huff.”

Much is stuff you’ll almost certainly know if you’ve been following online life, but the interest is in the details. Of particular note is the closing vignette with SA-head man Kyanka, expressing how blessedly untouched he is by online vilification. What it made me think of is the old thought that there really are two sorts of people online – those who are capable of empathy (and, indeed, sympathy) through the intermediary of an electronic channel, and those who simply aren’t. What the anecdote neatly illustrates is that actually works both ways.

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75 Comments »

  1. AK says:

    Excellent article, although it makes EVE sound truly horrible. And I love the fact that whenever there’s a public event in Second Life, there are a thousand oversized love-lengths hovering patiently on the horizon waiting to strike.

  2. Kieron Gillen says:

    I’m hoping Jim will drop in with some Eve Stories in the thread. It’s a fascinating place.

    KG

  3. Meat Circus says:

    The article kind of misses the point of EVE though. The EVE universe makes no moral judgments upon you; Piracy is just a valid career as miner, industrialist, hotshot PVP pilot or carebear.

    The destruction of the Titan, far from being an act of irritating griefing, was a masterful and brilliant act of complacency-roasting that the game’s mechanics are supposed to promote.

    Good on them.

  4. Piratepete says:

    MEat Circus’ point of view asides, griefer are just the same sort of people that don’t return a kids ball kicked over their fence, far too full of self importance for thier own good IMO.

  5. Jim Rossignol says:

    Eve *is* horrible, which is sort of the appeal of it. The permanent loss of assets has a big impact on a player, and so the extreme difficulty of actually catching and killing someone is rewarded because you know that they’re not just losing a few minutes questing time.

    I won’t say any more as I’m writing my next long RPS rant with Eve PvP in mind.

  6. Phil says:

    Accounts of second life griefing, especially the continuous tit-for-tat between the hard right and left, is about the most entertaining thing about the place.

  7. Meat Circus says:

    @Piratepete:

    I’m not saying that griefing is good, per se. To me, griefing is normally a sign that a game’s mechanics are broken.

    What I’m saying is that the Titan-destruction event wasn’t griefing in any way. It’s exactly the kind of event that EVE is all about. Its entire game mechanics are based around a tangible feeling of loss.

    When you lose a ship you’ve spent weeks tooling out it can be bloody heartbreaking. When you’ve got the biggest ship in the galaxy, and are poncing around like you own the sodding place, and then get floored by a group of titttering pilots zerg rushing you in noob-frigates it should be utterly devastating. That’s the feeling you’ve earned with your complacency. It’s what EVE wants you to feel. I wouldn’t have been surprised if each and every member of that corp wept themselves to sleep that night.

    It was a brilliant moment in EVE history and they should be congratulated for it.

  8. Meat Circus says:

    @Phil:

    Accounts of second life griefing, especially the continuous tit-for-tat between the hard right and left, is about the most entertaining thing about the place.

    I mean, Second Lifers are just *asking* to have the piss taken out of them, aren’t they? Frighteningly earnest loons taking refuge away from the shattered remnants of their first life in the badly-rendered escapism of their second. I struggle to think of an environment that’s screaming out for more ridicule and grief than Second Life.

  9. Seniath says:

    A good read indeed. And glad to hear you’re still working on that EVE post Jim, looking forward to it.

  10. davidAlpha says:

    ^ seconding that

    The article says make it seems like only the Goons are playing a whole diffrent kind of EVE but I think its true for any kind of player. The online life of a miner or a pirate in EVE couldnt be more different from each other. Its like two separate games.

  11. Stick says:

    “You may be playing EVE Online, but be warned: We are playing Something Awful.”

    I think this sums up griefing pretty well – it’s not that they’re not playing, it’s just – they’re not playing the same game.

    Agree with MC on the missed point re: EVE – equating PvP with griefing is… off. Especially in EVE. (And of course the Titan had to get ‘sploded. It was was a big, scary fleet-eating monstrosity.)

    As for Goonfleet…. ignore the E-O forums, and you can play forever without even hearing about them. (Then you find some stragglers pirating in low-sec, bring a few pals and swarm them with Expendables.)

    Jim R – \o/

  12. Stick says:

    Another thing: am I the only one getting annoyed at the – seeming – trend of equating in-game assets with the real money you’d get if you – EULA-violatingly – sold them on eBay?

    Let me rephrase that. With less convolutions.

    Are you the kind of person who watches a fireworks display thinking “that’s 10000 bucks ON FIRE”? Then you have no soul.

  13. Mark-P says:

    It’s hard to know what to make of the organized griefers. I guess they’re funny until they happen to you.
    On the one hand, they’re mean-spirited, mischievous jerks who enjoy kicking over other people’s sandcastles. On the other hand, they really hate furries. Is the enemy of my enemy my friend? I’m so confused :|

  14. Nick says:

    “…Second Lifers… Frighteningly earnest loons taking refuge away from the shattered remnants of their first life in the badly-rendered escapism of their second.”

    That’s a pretty broad and ignorant statement.

  15. Jim Rossignol says:

    The death of the second Titan, by the Goons’ sworn enemies, Band Of Brothers, was actually far closer to griefing, as it directly exploited game mechanics to force the kill.

    The first Titan kill was thanks to the pilot being careless, rather than anything else.

  16. Meat Circus says:

    @Nick:

    Broad, yes. Ignorant, no.

  17. Acosta says:

    I have played City of Heroes, Vanguard (a little bit, would like to go back some day). Tabula Rasa (not much yet) and World of Warcraft (from the beginning). Furthermore I love the concept of MMOs and has read a lot about them, especially from UO, Eve, Asheron’s Call, DAoC or Everquest, games I never played.

    My feeling is that the stories from the games I never played are much more interesting and more “human”. They are virtual worlds where power is a key element that motivates player to keep going forward, and abusing of weaker players is one well known way to show that power. I find that games like UO weren’t designed to be “games”, but true alternative worlds, so their designers didn’t care that much if it was frustrating or not, they created a world and a set of rules, letting everyone a lot of freedom to forge their way.

    Maybe I don´t want empathy, maybe I want to be a ruthless lone assassin that kills for testing my own skills, or a thief that profit from the dumbness of other player. It is a game of powers, if you don´t want your castle being stolen, put the necesary resources in defending it, if you don´t want to be beaten by the first PK, put more time.

    These are empty words from someone who have just played extensively to WoW in a RP server (which in some ways I regret it), but when I read things like the Eve heist, it makes look the game fascinating and more credible as a virtual universe.

  18. Butler` says:

    EVE’s underlying concepts interest me greatly, and the ‘tangible feeling of loss’ is perhaps the biggest pull. Id liken it to Diablo II Hardcore mode, perhaps. Any given multiplayer game can be enhanced ten-fold by this alone; although that’s not to say it is something that is applicable to most games.

    Unfortunately I’m put off by the whole sci-fi thing immensely.

    As for the meta game only known as ‘griefing’, it’s what makes MMOs for me.

  19. Meat Circus says:

    @Butler:

    I know what you mean. Griefers frequently display a creativity and flexibility that your average treadmill-monkey never does. In many ways, it’s the people who work out how to break the game and feed the monkeys that drive the game’s evolution.

    I mean, you can bet your life that no pilot is ever gonna be complacent again about the UNSINKABLE NATURE of their Titanship Titanic.

  20. Butler` says:

    Despite being relatively pro-griefing, and although I’ve never played EVE, I think that the whole event in question is in fact due to poor game design — it shouldn’t have happened.

    A fascinating event nonetheless, and one that drew my attention to EVE in the first place.

  21. Okami says:

    @Meat Circus: Whenever I hear the phrase “..XYZ is just asking to be…” I’ immediately reminded of the old “women in mini skirts are asking to be raped” argument.

    Second Lifers are a strange bunch, true. Think about them what you like. But they don’t hurt anybody doing it. Hell, I know a lot of people who’ve got really strange interests. I wouldn’t join them in their activities, but I can tolerate them doing it and I’d never call them out for it or spoil it for them.

    But those griefers.. They’re just assholes. Pure and simple. There’s nothing clever about their antics. They remind me of the assholes in school who’d made fun of you if they caught you with your d&d or warhammer rulebook.

    They see something they don’t understand and instead of just turning away, they need to destroy it for them. Woooo!!

    GO MATURE!

  22. Meat Circus says:

    @Okami:

    I think you have the griefers wrong. They are not bullies, attacking what they don’t understand in general. In fact, quite the opposite. They understand the games rules and flaws and social norms rather better than you do, which is why they’re so efficient at exploiting them for their own advantage and amusement.

    Griefing is a very creative pastime and is to be applauded. Projecting your own childhood neuroses onto them is unfair.

  23. BKG says:

    I really, really wish I could get into EVE as an indepth pursuit, but my dabbling has never really amounted to anything very exciting other than one minor corp war which I indirectly started.

    I had just got a shiny new battlecruiser and was mucking around with my load-out when someone in a similar class ship jumped in on top of me. I wasn’t at my sharpest at the time and didn’t make for my safe point – it was my first really major engagement with another player on my own.

    I eventually succumbed and lost my ship, but just as a corp mate jumped in and finished him. I was furious at having lost such a big investment, and while the other two people involved chatted in local I found it very hard to keep my anger in check.

    I got back to the site of the fight first and looted what was left of my ship, and cleared out the opponent’s ship by way of a small revenge, but the loss festered and I didn’t really play for a few days.

    When I came back, it turned out that the corp had taken notice of the attack, despite my being a very low-rung and new member, and in my absence routed the attacker’s entire corp out of several systems, taking out a huge swath of their ships.

    I felt quite a bit better despite the impact the war had no doubt had on innocent or uninvolved players.

    I submit that in a more coddled PvP environment, that kind of vindication is omitted making griefing a one-way street. It’s really a case of empowering players to make life more difficult in gameplay terms for those who want to live outside the “law”, and I think most people who think and play like that would relish being a pariah.

    More social Darwinism, less Systematic or GM nanny services would make MMOs more interesting.

  24. Noc says:

    I think the issue with EvE, though, is that killing someone’s Titan isn’t griefing. After any amount of PvP, most people learn that you don’t want to fly something you aren’t willing to lose . . . because even with the most pleasant and honourable enemies, they’ve still just blown you up.

    Griefing in EvE is dropping a jetcan right in front of a newbie station, then lurking around in hopes that some poor fellow who’s blundering about in confusion four minutes into the game will take something out of it so you can shoot him. Or “lending” him some minerals so you can shoot him. Or any of a dozen variations on that tack.

    EvE’s a big playground where you get to build your own sandcastles, and kick over other peoples. But it does a fantastic job of making sure that you know what you’re getting into when you sit down at the low-to-no security beach and start grabbing handfulls of sand. Since it’s about ball-stealing and castle-kicking, the “griefers” don’t stand out . . . but even reading the article, there’s still a pretty clear division in mindset. A griefer wants his opponent to stop playing the game. He doesn’t, in the case of EvE, want the alliance he’s fighting to fracture, and its corps to flee the proverbial sinking ship, join other, smaller alliances, and leave them free to move into the territory . . . he wants his opponent to be so frustrated with the untenable position he’s put in to stop playing all together.

    He doesn’t want to win the game, he wants to win a personal victory over the other player. Which is why griefing in FPSs isn’t about finding interesting ways to overrun the opponent . . . it’s about shooting your teammates in the back until they get pissed and leave.

    I don’t think that griefers drive the evolution of anything . . . if anything, they simply force the makers of games to put more stringent limits on what the players can do, because they can’t trust players to voluntarily play on the same team. They don’t exploit game mechanics to build improbably effective characters . . . they hang around in newbie areas with high-level characters and PK people who can’t defend themselves.

    And they don’t simply see things that amuse them and poke fun at them . . . they find a forum or a venue of people they don’t respect and flood it with spam until the place’s users are driven out and the site is shut down. Griefing isn’t about being good enough at your job that you edge someone out of a promotion . . . it’s about seeing someone on the street who’s dressed funny, following them home, then taking a baseball bat to everything in their house.

    The only reason it’s an “internet” phenomenom is that you’ve a far smaller chance of being tracked back and arrested for a forum attack then you would for home invasion, assault and battery, and malicious property destruction.

  25. fluffy bunny says:

    Meat Circus: Could you _be_ any more arrogant?

  26. Meat Circus says:

    Yes, Ms Aniston. I could _be_ more arrogant, kthx.

  27. kadayi says:

    I’m all for creative griefers, Agent provocateurs who break the rules so much that they actually force developers to directly address issues and exploits through effective action, however such sterling examples are the exception rather than the rule.

  28. Kieron Gillen says:

    Keep it polite, people.

    KG

  29. Champagne O'Leary says:

    I’d have to support Circus.

    @Stick
    Are you the kind of person who watches a fireworks display thinking “that’s 10000 bucks ON FIRE”? Then you have no soul.

    That’s a beautiful quote.

    Mindless griefing I generally disagree with, but a deliberate and unified effort to effectively break through to the other side is lovely. Especially if it upsets a few people in the process.

  30. Matt says:

    I remember watching a youtube video of some people who had pk’d some characters on WoW because the players had gathered together to hold an in-game memorial to a WoW player who had recently died. Odd as I thought the idea of an in game memorial was in some ways, I remember thinking it was a strange way to get your jollies, especially since it said there were family members and friends of the deceased person there.

    Essentially I have always thought it to be a case of people using the relatively safe shield of anonymity as a weapon to attack others. It is an act of empowerment for the people involved who perhaps don’t feel, as many people in society don’t, particularly empowered in real life.

    It is an extension of the same fantasies and desires that make people play these games in the first place, to become something else in a game, gathering wealth, becoming influential, or living out other fantasies. Griefing is just another route to achieve the same goals, it seems like a weak argument to suggest it is a protest against these things, they are deriving the same satisfaction from their actions that other players do from theirs.

  31. BKG says:

    Noc: Yeah, I take your point, the boundaries of what could be called griefing doesn’t really apply to EVE where loss of property is the norm. I think the daily life of an EVE player would amount to the worst you could get away with in most other online games though, which is why it always comes up in relation to online misbehaviour.

    Just after posting though I was taking out the trash and thinking about if and when I’ve ever griefed or been accused of griefing and an interesting anecdote came to mind.

    There was a point on WoW where, on my server at least, but judging from the forums it was pandemic, there was a state of mass-griefing/outright social collapse around the time of the infamous “War Effort” patch to unlock AQ40/20.

    Pre-patch, the PvP field of play had an increasing number of people in gear from Molten Core or the fairly new Blackwing Lair which outclassed the blue instance items most people had been contently clad in for a long time, and with no real access to any items outside of raiding they were relegated to cannon fodder.

    This built up a lot of resentment, as did the fact that on our server we had really on one elite Alliance guild doing this content, who basically dictated economic balance on the highest-tier of trade goods and items – they charged ungodly amounts of gold merely for a place in a farming run, where you’d get the chance to bid against other customers on anything that dropped which they didn’t need.

    The raider/non-raider rift was really apparent once the war effort started. All manner of items had to be submitted from all level bands. At first most people did submit items to get the reward vouchers, but over time they slowly stopped turning anything in and our server’s progress ground to a halt.

    The realisation had sunk in that a/ most people doing these hand ins would never see the content they were working to unlock b/ the raid guild’s drive to see this new content had driven the auction prices on most basic trade goods up to insane prices.

    Everyone started gouging, gradually increasing the prices until base metals like copper were selling for ten gold a stack to the point that it became unwise to post things for sale on your main character, with raiders whispering sellers insults for their behaviour. These illicit war effort profiteers were driven underground, and I was one of them.

    This went on the whole time, with Horde side raiders even coming into IF general chat and abusing the Alliance’s economic griefers for holding the whole realm to ransom.

    But the ransom was paid, and my Warrior went all the way to 60 with the finest things in life, epics from the AH were no object and even my epic mount was little effort given the gold I’d amassed had allowed me to start reselling choice items for a steady income.

    At first, I think I was probably swept up in the peasant’s rebellion aspect, but in reality I just made my fortune at the expense of another playstyle, and playerbase.

    Good times.

  32. Cian says:

    As has been noted, I think Eve is very different from other games in terms of where the line lies. For example, in Jita, a character offers to help people run difficult missions. This character then gangs up with the hopeful newbie and promptly warps him into an ambush possible due to war standings set between a well known griefer and his apparently helpful alt.
    On the other hand, for a while I lived in BWF, a gateway 0.0 system which saw alot of action (for about 6 months I fought for or with nearly every alliance that passed through there). As the residents and defenders of this system, we would occasionally be attacked by a small local corp who possessed a mothership. A vessel we had very little chance of defeating and suffered alot of losses to.
    Both these scenarios are allowed within the rules of the game, but I think one is griefing whilst the other is entirely agreeable, if somewhat aggravating. In another game however, and against other rules both can seen as griefing.

    On the topic of Goons though, I’ve always been quite fond of their tactics. I don’t think they’re griefers (anymore than RA are, who’ve suffered their share of accusations). However, perhaps inevitably, their members contain a sizeable proportion of imbeciles. I recently was in a gang on the Southern front that lost a friendly pilot to a passing Goon. When asked to apologise for shooting a blue ship he instead responded with threats towards my alliance. Thats not griefing, just old fashioned idiocy.

  33. Phil says:

    The funeral crashers were contemptible assholes.

    The furrie baiters on the other hand, I find hugely amusing and in many cases, very creative.

    I suppose it’s the difference between racist graffiti and Banksy.

  34. Noc says:

    @ BKG: Yeah. But that’s not griefing. You could call it “exploiting,” or “playing aggressively” or whatever, but you were exploiting the game and the other players for personal profit. Whether it was “fair” or not is a matter of opinion, but it’s not griefing.

    Griefing would’ve been if you took a rich, high-level character and intentionally screwed up the economy in a lower-level area to send the prices up to a place that no one of a lower level could afford . . . and knowing full well that you’d never make any money out of this scheme, but simply delighting in the fact that you’re making it impossible for low-level players to get anything at all out of the auction house.

    It’d be a clever thing to do, to be sure. But all it’s accomplishing is making someone else’s game difficult for your own amusment . . .and if it gets bad enough, making Blizzard regulate the AH at the expense of any legitament entrepreneurs. “Exploiting” provokes players into finding ways to compensate and overcome your advantage . . . but the only steps you can really take from actual griefing are backwards ones.

  35. Lu-Tze says:

    http://www.stage6.com/user/FLOOR_MASTER/video/1911646/TEAM-ROOMBA-PRESENTS:-Team-Fortress-2-Griefing
    and
    http://www.stage6.com/user/FLOOR_MASTER/video/1973259/TEAM-ROOMBA-PRESENTS:-Team-Fortress-2-Griefing-2

    Are the two best examples of griefing in my game of choice at the moment. Yet I found both of them hilarious to watch.

    Maybe that’s because I don’t have a “home” server that they invaded (although I believe this was mostly down on their own server) and my playing routinely involves flicking servers to find one that I have more fun on or with some custom map I fancy a go at. In MMOs there’s often no escaping… you have a very small area of the world that’s very public in which you can play. You can’t take your game somewhere else.

  36. Piratepete says:

    @Meat Circus

    No I wasn’t saying you condemned griefing, merely that I understood the distinction between griefing and being a sneaky bar steward in Eve.

    The post was hastily written, and not phrased well. Look at the amount of typos ffs :)

  37. BKG says:

    Noc: It was considered griefing by the fairly harsh abusers most of my guild got whispers from :P

    What I’m saying is that griefing can, in the victim’s eyes, rightly or wrongly, amount to a clash of legitimate play styles or motives as much as unmitigated destruction for destruction’s sake – with a preference for self-defeatism – that’s really just an anarchist standard which accounts for some friction in virtual worlds.

    Ninja-looting for example is down to a miss-taught version of the assurance game in the likes of WoW – it goads the player into selfish item grubbing with the left hand and with the right indicates that all items of worth require other item-grubbers to get.

    EVE is, to my mind, an example of a game world where daily life would amount to constant griefing for anyone who can’t develop a bit of a mean streak themselves though.

  38. zergl says:

    One of the games most vulnerable to griefing I’ve played recently is Empires, a HL2 mod crossover between RTS and FPS (awesome game, btw, give it a try).

    Main griefing points are wasting resources (be it respawn tickets, the moneylike ingame resource or the vehicle limit) by suiciding, spamming jeeps or extremely high cost but crap vehicles or the oh-so-popular comm-flippers which flip the command vehicle on its head or into water (by exploiting game mechanics) after which it slowly takes damage until it’s either dead (and team lost) or some other people notice it and manage to flip it back.

    Very annoying and if you’d like to see it in action:

    MOVING PICTURES

  39. Will Tomas says:

    I tend to agree with Matt that the griefers are out to get kicks in a similar way to those playing the game “properly.”

    I have a mixed view about this, because whilst some griefer activities are genuinely worthwhile, and taking things, especially online, far too seriously is patently silly and ripe for having the mickey taken, a lot of griefers you come across are right pillocks.

    In some ways it’s the difference between drawing a copy of the Mona Lisa and putting a mustache on it, and drawing a mustache on the actual Mona Lisa in permanent marker. The first is worthwhile and entertaining, and you could even argue is making a valid point, the second is just idiotic and misunderstanding the point of the exercise. Or in other words, the difference between Brian in Life of Brian being someone with a similar life to Jesus, to Brian actually being Jesus. The problem I have with griefers is that several I’ve come across don’t seem to get the distinction between making valid and quite funny points by taking the mick, and just being insensitive twonks.

  40. Stick says:

    @Champagne O’Leary:
    Thank you. I do try. :)

    I’m a bit leery of the Apologetics of Griefing. I’d rather apply Occam’s Razor or the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory.

    Simply, you are immune to face-punching. So, you act out. With more or less style. (Dropping 100 jetcans to lag out system vs. Flying Penis Attack.) But it still says more about you than anything else.

    That said, I’d love to have a Proper Talk about the relationships between griefing, exploits, emergent gameplay and canonized exploits (e.g, “advanced movement”) at some point.

  41. Noc says:

    I don’t think the issue is one of whether they’re funny or not. Some griefing activities are hilarious YouTube fodder, and others seem nearly as lame as the objects of their ridicule.

    But it seems to me that the issue is more the difference between drawing a cartoon involving Jesus pissing on something, and busting into a church during Sunday Mass and relieving one’s self on the altar. Whether the cartoon is a genuinely funny bit of satire or whether it’s a lame, derivative attempt at Middle School humor isn’t the point . . . but point is that it’s an entirely different thing from actively finding people engaged in one of their own pasttimes and deliberately and maliciously making it impossible for them to congregate/play their game/whatever.

  42. Kadayi says:

    Having read the article in full over a post work cup of tea, I have to say I find the whole subject rather hollow. For people who are all about not taking the internet seriously, they sure seem to, if not more so than their victims. If there is a point to be made in terms of a flaw with a game, or some such fair enough. But to effectively terrorize people endlessly and without any cause beyond them daring to object to it, is just plain playground harassment, regardless of how much spin is put on it. Would these same people ruin live sporting events given the opportunity? Dash onto the field during the Olympics mens 100 meters you think? After all it’s only sport, what’s the big deal? Or would the notion of a court case, fine/sentence, public exposure and the contempt of millions likely including their families, make that much of a difference? If ‘teh internets’ is not serious for these people, what is? When some one claims they are psychotic, you can pretty much dismiss them as a desperate attention seeker (look, look I am a unique snowflake!!!, watch me soar!!!). The whole point about a state of psychosis is that the afflicted isn’t aware of it.

  43. Sum0 says:

    It’s a cycle of violence, innit? Little Billy in his Burberry cap gets beaten by his dad, so he goes to school and joins a gang and takes it out on the nerds playing D&D. And the nerds playing D&D can’t physically beat anyone up, so they go online and they form a gang and take it out on innocent players. And they pretend to be hard, but they’re just nerds too.
    It’s one of the sad things about the internet. Kadayi just puts it really well: it’s the smartass hypocrisy of griefers that annoys me the most. It’s not serious business? Then why the hell are you dedicating your free time to ruining it?
    (Having said that, the TF2 griefing is comedy gold, mainly because it’s not malicious, it’s just a bit of absurd fun.)

  44. Kadayi says:

    The thing is though with CS or TF2 it’s a short lesson normally, (5 minutes of infamy), and people have the freedom to at least escape to another server or have an admin ban them (I ban plenty), but with the whole MMO/Virtual World scene there isn’t that leeway. You’re getting shat on from on high in WoW, you don’t have anywhere you can escape to, save the exit screen.

  45. Zeno, Internetographer says:

    Ah, the griefer. The dirty bastard of the new generation…

    For one, Second Lifers deserve a good griefing, because they take that “game” way too seriously.

    All this talk of EVE stuff makes me want to play it. Gonna wait for it to come to Steam, though.

  46. Kieron Gillen says:

    “Deserve” is one of the interesting things about the debate for me. I’m naturally wary of “She Was Asking For It” arguments, y’know…

    KG

  47. Will Tomas says:

    Well, the comment in the article that the griefers in EVE only feel that they win once they’ve driven people away from the game never to return does speak volumes.

    Another analogy, in agreement with Kadayi, pointing out what the griefers in the article profess to be doing ( this ) and what they are actually doing ( this ). The thing that’s really wrong with griefers is the great delight they take in doing the latter type of activity.

  48. Pace says:

    Well said Kadayi, in several posts above.

    If I may say something else, far less eloquently, sometimes being a dick, is just being a dick. The occasional valid point doesn’t justify unmitigated jackassery.

  49. Nick says:

    “For one, Second Lifers deserve a good griefing, because they take that “game” way too seriously.”

    Unlike most MMO players then.

    I’m just surprised as to why it’s singled out and its players worthy of such vitriol, a lot of them seem to play it for the creative outlets it allows – which no other MMO has. Certainly, it has a large playerbase of “freaks, weirdos, furrys” etc, but that doesn’t make everyone who plays it a raging lifeless pervert, deserving of your scorn.

    I don’t play it, I have a few friends who do – they are entirely “normal”.

  50. Chris R says:

    I have to admit that I was laughing pretty hard at the TF2 griefing videos. The Engy’s building teleports to trap their team-mates and blocking the exit from the spam had me in stitches. Great stuff.

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