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	<title>Comments on: PC Gamer Goes To War</title>
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		<title>By: calabi</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/10/pc-gamer-goes-to-war/comment-page-1/#comment-31306</link>
		<dc:creator>calabi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Mar 2008 15:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1289#comment-31306</guid>
		<description>Hi, Just thought I would add to the enumerable comments to point out.  There is some evidence that people are crying out for criticism as seen in the popularity of Zero punctuation.

The popularity isnt just because of the funny anecdotes and rude language, but because the things he does point out are true.  Rarely do we here or see how absurd some of these things in games are.  He exposes these games, with there shallow and overused gameplay elements.

In general I think a lot of the media is rose tinted, caught up in empty hype and promises of gold.  A lot of games now have changed very little from their core beginnings(in the gameplay sense), no one seems to see or care.  I wonder at why games in general have not evolved or come as far as they could, but it could be because no one cares to see anything wrong with the current games, or expects much more from them.

Anway I dont think the lack of criticism is specific to games at the moment.  There seems to be a fear in general of criticism perhaps in part because of possible reactions to it, jihads, litigations, nasty forum posts.  You need to have tough skin and be prepared for the backslash which is all but impossible to avoid now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Just thought I would add to the enumerable comments to point out.  There is some evidence that people are crying out for criticism as seen in the popularity of Zero punctuation.</p>
<p>The popularity isnt just because of the funny anecdotes and rude language, but because the things he does point out are true.  Rarely do we here or see how absurd some of these things in games are.  He exposes these games, with there shallow and overused gameplay elements.</p>
<p>In general I think a lot of the media is rose tinted, caught up in empty hype and promises of gold.  A lot of games now have changed very little from their core beginnings(in the gameplay sense), no one seems to see or care.  I wonder at why games in general have not evolved or come as far as they could, but it could be because no one cares to see anything wrong with the current games, or expects much more from them.</p>
<p>Anway I dont think the lack of criticism is specific to games at the moment.  There seems to be a fear in general of criticism perhaps in part because of possible reactions to it, jihads, litigations, nasty forum posts.  You need to have tough skin and be prepared for the backslash which is all but impossible to avoid now.</p>
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		<title>By: mister slim</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/10/pc-gamer-goes-to-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30299</link>
		<dc:creator>mister slim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 08:57:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1289#comment-30299</guid>
		<description>Does Tim Rogers still write for GamesTM?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does Tim Rogers still write for GamesTM?</p>
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		<title>By: Buceph</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/10/pc-gamer-goes-to-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30260</link>
		<dc:creator>Buceph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 00:38:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1289#comment-30260</guid>
		<description>Fine, you&#039;re right, I concede. Gaming journalism is bastion of high brow intelligent critique. It has far surpassed nob jokes. Every sentence of any worth isn&#039;t preceded with self derision. Games journalism is in no way hypocritical, it does not demand that games be treated as art and a valued element of society all the while writing the literary equivalent of pull my finger jokes.

You&#039;re correct. Games journalism isn&#039;t a joke. It isn&#039;t something the developers themselves are laughing at.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fine, you&#8217;re right, I concede. Gaming journalism is bastion of high brow intelligent critique. It has far surpassed nob jokes. Every sentence of any worth isn&#8217;t preceded with self derision. Games journalism is in no way hypocritical, it does not demand that games be treated as art and a valued element of society all the while writing the literary equivalent of pull my finger jokes.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re correct. Games journalism isn&#8217;t a joke. It isn&#8217;t something the developers themselves are laughing at.</p>
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		<title>By: Cueball</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/10/pc-gamer-goes-to-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30231</link>
		<dc:creator>Cueball</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 22:10:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1289#comment-30231</guid>
		<description>Personally I think Kieron Walker is being too kind to Costikyan in the main post here. His entire article reads simply as self-aggrandisement, rather than an opening to a discussion, and one of his closing comments is a bit of a giveaway. 

&quot;we are still viewing the works under question from an inherently critical stance.

Would that anyfuckingone else in gaming did so.&quot;

If he&#039;s limited his reading to mainstream websites and consumer mags to allow himself to come to his conclusion, that&#039;s his loss, frankly. Do film buffs have the same arguements about there not being enough heavyweight articles in Empire, or book lovers bite down their fury when the Guardian&#039;s book section isn&#039;t penned by Terry Eagleton (or, that when it is, he merely &#039;reviews&#039; a novel rather than &#039;critiques&#039; it)?

More relevant is the fact that Pauline Kael wrote - as far as I&#039;m aware - primarily for the New Yorker, not for a film mag, thus enabling her to reach a far wider audience (and therefore recognition) than film buffs. If the New Yorker had a games section, and appointed any one of the RPS quaduvirate as its editor, you&#039;d have a your Pauline Kael for film - ie intelligent criticism taken out of the confines of &#039;enthusiast&#039; outlet. It&#039;s as much about the cultural relevance of the medium as it is about the actual writing.

Or, to put it another way, if Mark Twain had written Literary Offenses today, it&#039;d be just as memorable as Cotskyan&#039;s article will be tomorrow.

I&#039;d disagree strongly with Buceph as well - &quot;even the best reviews pale in comparison to the proper critiques other media enjoy.&quot; That&#039;s just not true - ask the award-winning Kieron Gillen what he won his award for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally I think Kieron Walker is being too kind to Costikyan in the main post here. His entire article reads simply as self-aggrandisement, rather than an opening to a discussion, and one of his closing comments is a bit of a giveaway. </p>
<p>&#8220;we are still viewing the works under question from an inherently critical stance.</p>
<p>Would that anyfuckingone else in gaming did so.&#8221;</p>
<p>If he&#8217;s limited his reading to mainstream websites and consumer mags to allow himself to come to his conclusion, that&#8217;s his loss, frankly. Do film buffs have the same arguements about there not being enough heavyweight articles in Empire, or book lovers bite down their fury when the Guardian&#8217;s book section isn&#8217;t penned by Terry Eagleton (or, that when it is, he merely &#8216;reviews&#8217; a novel rather than &#8216;critiques&#8217; it)?</p>
<p>More relevant is the fact that Pauline Kael wrote &#8211; as far as I&#8217;m aware &#8211; primarily for the New Yorker, not for a film mag, thus enabling her to reach a far wider audience (and therefore recognition) than film buffs. If the New Yorker had a games section, and appointed any one of the RPS quaduvirate as its editor, you&#8217;d have a your Pauline Kael for film &#8211; ie intelligent criticism taken out of the confines of &#8216;enthusiast&#8217; outlet. It&#8217;s as much about the cultural relevance of the medium as it is about the actual writing.</p>
<p>Or, to put it another way, if Mark Twain had written Literary Offenses today, it&#8217;d be just as memorable as Cotskyan&#8217;s article will be tomorrow.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d disagree strongly with Buceph as well &#8211; &#8220;even the best reviews pale in comparison to the proper critiques other media enjoy.&#8221; That&#8217;s just not true &#8211; ask the award-winning Kieron Gillen what he won his award for.</p>
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		<title>By: KingMob</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/10/pc-gamer-goes-to-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30206</link>
		<dc:creator>KingMob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 20:33:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1289#comment-30206</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
Deviating myself here from Tim’s defence of reviews onto Greg’s wider claim that there is little or no ‘games criticism’, I can point to PCG pieces such as Kieron’s incredible Cradle feature, Jim’s eye-opening Korean gaming investigation or John’s teary text-love for The Longest Journey, and his concerns seem a little hasty.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Haha, when you punctuate your points by citing work by other RPS members it seems a bit too much like patting yourself on the back...

That said, I agree with Alec&#039;s point in this article. Good game criticism is out there. In my opinion the difference between review and criticism starts with omitting a numerical score. Now if only both reviews and criticism would work harder at focusing on the game and its significance to the industry and leaving out anecdotes and referential humor...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
Deviating myself here from Tim’s defence of reviews onto Greg’s wider claim that there is little or no ‘games criticism’, I can point to PCG pieces such as Kieron’s incredible Cradle feature, Jim’s eye-opening Korean gaming investigation or John’s teary text-love for The Longest Journey, and his concerns seem a little hasty.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Haha, when you punctuate your points by citing work by other RPS members it seems a bit too much like patting yourself on the back&#8230;</p>
<p>That said, I agree with Alec&#8217;s point in this article. Good game criticism is out there. In my opinion the difference between review and criticism starts with omitting a numerical score. Now if only both reviews and criticism would work harder at focusing on the game and its significance to the industry and leaving out anecdotes and referential humor&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Buceph</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/10/pc-gamer-goes-to-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30180</link>
		<dc:creator>Buceph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 19:14:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1289#comment-30180</guid>
		<description>But doesn&#039;t Costikyan have a right to feel insulted. The industry has been asking to be taken seriously for ages, to be treated as an artform, something that deserves to be treated as a serious medium. Magazines have been agreeing for quite a while, often by addressing the 15 year old spotty nerd* they presume reads their articles and tells them to stand up to the bigger boys in the playground and all those stupid grown ups and let them know that gaming isn&#039;t just for kids, that&#039;s as good, if not better than telly. And then, for the most part, write fairly shallow reviews. And even the best reviews pale in comparison to the proper critiques other media enjoy.

*ok, this may have changed in the past few years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But doesn&#8217;t Costikyan have a right to feel insulted. The industry has been asking to be taken seriously for ages, to be treated as an artform, something that deserves to be treated as a serious medium. Magazines have been agreeing for quite a while, often by addressing the 15 year old spotty nerd* they presume reads their articles and tells them to stand up to the bigger boys in the playground and all those stupid grown ups and let them know that gaming isn&#8217;t just for kids, that&#8217;s as good, if not better than telly. And then, for the most part, write fairly shallow reviews. And even the best reviews pale in comparison to the proper critiques other media enjoy.</p>
<p>*ok, this may have changed in the past few years.</p>
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		<title>By: Kieron Gillen</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/10/pc-gamer-goes-to-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30176</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieron Gillen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 18:49:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1289#comment-30176</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s because Costikyan was openly insulting against reviewers in the piece. There&#039;s an implication that reviewers can&#039;t do it, because they&#039;re too dull.

KG</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s because Costikyan was openly insulting against reviewers in the piece. There&#8217;s an implication that reviewers can&#8217;t do it, because they&#8217;re too dull.</p>
<p>KG</p>
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		<title>By: josh g.</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/10/pc-gamer-goes-to-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30174</link>
		<dc:creator>josh g.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 18:44:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1289#comment-30174</guid>
		<description>Why is Edwards writing in &quot;defense of reviews&quot; when Costikyan&#039;s argument was not an attack on reviews in the first place?  At least that&#039;s not what I took from his rant - I saw it as a complaint about the lack of good games criticism out there.  I certainly didn&#039;t understand it to be saying, &quot;Hey, you reviewers, you shouldn&#039;t be writing anything intelligent.&quot;  But for some reason that seems to be what Edwards is getting defensive about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why is Edwards writing in &#8220;defense of reviews&#8221; when Costikyan&#8217;s argument was not an attack on reviews in the first place?  At least that&#8217;s not what I took from his rant &#8211; I saw it as a complaint about the lack of good games criticism out there.  I certainly didn&#8217;t understand it to be saying, &#8220;Hey, you reviewers, you shouldn&#8217;t be writing anything intelligent.&#8221;  But for some reason that seems to be what Edwards is getting defensive about.</p>
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		<title>By: Buceph</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/10/pc-gamer-goes-to-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30168</link>
		<dc:creator>Buceph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 18:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1289#comment-30168</guid>
		<description>Cheers. 

I still think it&#039;s one of the best magazines out there. 

And to add to the thing, the debate is still going on over on the PCG blog section.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cheers. </p>
<p>I still think it&#8217;s one of the best magazines out there. </p>
<p>And to add to the thing, the debate is still going on over on the PCG blog section.</p>
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		<title>By: Buceph</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/10/pc-gamer-goes-to-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30167</link>
		<dc:creator>Buceph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 18:30:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1289#comment-30167</guid>
		<description>Cheers. 

I still think it&#039;s one of the best magazines out there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cheers. </p>
<p>I still think it&#8217;s one of the best magazines out there.</p>
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		<title>By: Aimless</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/10/pc-gamer-goes-to-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30131</link>
		<dc:creator>Aimless</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 16:08:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1289#comment-30131</guid>
		<description>Buceph, I didn&#039;t call you a &quot;retard&quot;. You&#039;re probably more of a linguist than I; when my friends went off to Uni I stayed at home and played videogames.

My suggestion was that you were labelling Edge as pretentious because it&#039;s the easy thing to do. Everyone&#039;s a little bit prejudice, after all; sometimes you have to pigeonhole things so you can get on with what really matters.

Clearly you&#039;ve given the subject quite some thought. I still disagree, but that&#039;s okay: it&#039;s only a gaming magazine. I can certainly see why someone would think Edge pretentious even if I don&#039;t subscribe to that point of few.

The term itself is a pet hate of mine and I often see it used with little or no validation. It isn&#039;t that people don&#039;t know what the word means, I just find it&#039;s over- and lazily used to the extent it&#039;s become little more than a semi-polite form of name calling. To attribute it to something is to assume its intent, and that is always shaky ground.

Still, you seem to genuinely think Edge is pretentious so that&#039;s fair enough. I don&#039;t agree, but it&#039;s no skin off my nose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Buceph, I didn&#8217;t call you a &#8220;retard&#8221;. You&#8217;re probably more of a linguist than I; when my friends went off to Uni I stayed at home and played videogames.</p>
<p>My suggestion was that you were labelling Edge as pretentious because it&#8217;s the easy thing to do. Everyone&#8217;s a little bit prejudice, after all; sometimes you have to pigeonhole things so you can get on with what really matters.</p>
<p>Clearly you&#8217;ve given the subject quite some thought. I still disagree, but that&#8217;s okay: it&#8217;s only a gaming magazine. I can certainly see why someone would think Edge pretentious even if I don&#8217;t subscribe to that point of few.</p>
<p>The term itself is a pet hate of mine and I often see it used with little or no validation. It isn&#8217;t that people don&#8217;t know what the word means, I just find it&#8217;s over- and lazily used to the extent it&#8217;s become little more than a semi-polite form of name calling. To attribute it to something is to assume its intent, and that is always shaky ground.</p>
<p>Still, you seem to genuinely think Edge is pretentious so that&#8217;s fair enough. I don&#8217;t agree, but it&#8217;s no skin off my nose.</p>
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		<title>By: calday</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/10/pc-gamer-goes-to-war/comment-page-1/#comment-30044</link>
		<dc:creator>calday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 10:10:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1289#comment-30044</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I&#039;ve found game “reviews” to be useless in determining rather or not I’ll enjoy a game&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;ve found them useful a bunch of times. Professional reviews are much better as buyer&#039;s guides than Amazon cruft when (i) they&#039;re decently articulate (ii) the reviewer makes some attempt to highlight their own prejudices. This is the &#039;professional&#039; bit.

A decent stand-in for (ii) is that you can read enough of their work to learn where they can and can&#039;t be trusted.  (i) is a bonus here because it means their work isn&#039;t painful to read that much of.

A lot of the best reviewers (and RPS has at least a couple of those) could write great criticism, but they&#039;re terrified of being taken too seriously. So a lot of the keener insights are buried under self-deprecating of-course-I-didn&#039;t-pay-attention-at-uni jokes, or carefully offhand references to complex points that need more detail.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Pretension isn’t a substitute for critical analysis. It’s just that they often look similar.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

plus 1 for this. Insightful criticism is difficult. It needs real, grounded engagement. Cargo-cult criticism, where you borrow the forms of real criticism and salt with buzzwords, is much easier and very very popular.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I&#8217;ve found game “reviews” to be useless in determining rather or not I’ll enjoy a game</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;ve found them useful a bunch of times. Professional reviews are much better as buyer&#8217;s guides than Amazon cruft when (i) they&#8217;re decently articulate (ii) the reviewer makes some attempt to highlight their own prejudices. This is the &#8216;professional&#8217; bit.</p>
<p>A decent stand-in for (ii) is that you can read enough of their work to learn where they can and can&#8217;t be trusted.  (i) is a bonus here because it means their work isn&#8217;t painful to read that much of.</p>
<p>A lot of the best reviewers (and RPS has at least a couple of those) could write great criticism, but they&#8217;re terrified of being taken too seriously. So a lot of the keener insights are buried under self-deprecating of-course-I-didn&#8217;t-pay-attention-at-uni jokes, or carefully offhand references to complex points that need more detail.</p>
<blockquote><p>Pretension isn’t a substitute for critical analysis. It’s just that they often look similar.</p></blockquote>
<p>plus 1 for this. Insightful criticism is difficult. It needs real, grounded engagement. Cargo-cult criticism, where you borrow the forms of real criticism and salt with buzzwords, is much easier and very very popular.</p>
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