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	<title>Comments on: Generation Games</title>
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		<title>By: Bobsy</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/18/generation-games/#comment-107533</link>
		<dc:creator>Bobsy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Oct 2008 15:09:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The &quot;first&quot; Battlezone? Think hard now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;first&#8221; Battlezone? Think hard now.
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		<title>By: Urael</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/18/generation-games/#comment-107528</link>
		<dc:creator>Urael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Oct 2008 14:46:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Midwinter II rocked my world. I must have played that game for months, never ever finishing the campaign but having massive fun playing freedom-fighter in a world laden with people and fun vehicles (I like the underwater vehicles best). 

My seminal games:
The Sentinel: The first time I felt the presence of a geniune enemy - one who could destroy me and needed to be conquered. Avoiding him and his minions while traversing these odd little levels provided years or fun for me.

Midwinter II. It felt like a world I could inhabit, even as crudely realised as it was back then.

Thief: The first time I remember guile, patience and observation being valued and rewarded over the simple and nigh-on ubiquitous concept of perpetual combat.

@Lachlan: The first Battlezone was an amazing game, largely because of the slidey feel of the craft you were driving, and the fabulous terrains you got to drive them in. I adored the very realistic looking moon terrain the most, and wished more of the game could have been set there. To my mind realistic non-terrestrial environments have never been bettered, sadly. Also, how about that whooshing roar sound from the engines as you flew off a cliff and landed again? What an immersive experience that was!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Midwinter II rocked my world. I must have played that game for months, never ever finishing the campaign but having massive fun playing freedom-fighter in a world laden with people and fun vehicles (I like the underwater vehicles best). </p>
<p>My seminal games:<br />
The Sentinel: The first time I felt the presence of a geniune enemy &#8211; one who could destroy me and needed to be conquered. Avoiding him and his minions while traversing these odd little levels provided years or fun for me.</p>
<p>Midwinter II. It felt like a world I could inhabit, even as crudely realised as it was back then.</p>
<p>Thief: The first time I remember guile, patience and observation being valued and rewarded over the simple and nigh-on ubiquitous concept of perpetual combat.</p>
<p>@Lachlan: The first Battlezone was an amazing game, largely because of the slidey feel of the craft you were driving, and the fabulous terrains you got to drive them in. I adored the very realistic looking moon terrain the most, and wished more of the game could have been set there. To my mind realistic non-terrestrial environments have never been bettered, sadly. Also, how about that whooshing roar sound from the engines as you flew off a cliff and landed again? What an immersive experience that was!
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		<title>By: Optimaximal</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/18/generation-games/#comment-32912</link>
		<dc:creator>Optimaximal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 10:26:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1351#comment-32912</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t believe nobody else has mentioned it...  I DEMAND A SOLAR-POWERED ELECTRO-SUSPENSION CAR DAMMIT!!!

Seriously, someone needs to show that video to the Japanese or German car designers (although I suspect the latter are still enjoying their &#039;Nazi Supermen are our Superiors&#039; video).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t believe nobody else has mentioned it&#8230;  I DEMAND A SOLAR-POWERED ELECTRO-SUSPENSION CAR DAMMIT!!!</p>
<p>Seriously, someone needs to show that video to the Japanese or German car designers (although I suspect the latter are still enjoying their &#8216;Nazi Supermen are our Superiors&#8217; video).
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		<title>By: James T</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/18/generation-games/#comment-32902</link>
		<dc:creator>James T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 08:13:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1351#comment-32902</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;You say this, yet then go on to describe a bunch of things the game did that very few games ever made have done (I haven’t played it, so I don’t know how well the comments apply), so I’m curious about this comment; whether it holds up or not is irrelevant if it has done unique things like that, and it sounds like it fully deserves every mention it gets in the history of gaming (and, in fact, would be a crime if it wasn’t)&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Their innovations being unique implies that said innovations weren&#039;t taken up by future creators -- since they apparently got left behind by history, regardless of merit, there&#039;d be no point including them as any more than a footnote in a &#039;historical nar--

Why are we talking about this?

Anyway, I&#039;d have been interested to see more game-makers try messing with goal/endgame conventions after Ultima IV.  I can see why they didn&#039;t -- I&#039;ve racked my brains trying to think of how I&#039;d TOTALLY MESS WITH THE MINDS OF GAMING&#039;S MONOSEXUAL PATRIARCHY (oops, went a bit &#039;Torchwood&#039; there, *ostentatiously kisses gay man*) without just, y&#039;know, ripping off Ultima IV myself, but I&#039;m sure there are plenty of answers out there.  U4 has a final dungeon, and a &#039;network&#039; of quests to give you the impetus to travel, but largely you progress in its thoroughly open world by living in the accordance with the 8 Virtues, thereby becoming the Messiah (or just a Very Naughty Boy if you used the Skull of Mondain.  Tisk tisk!)

Heck, I&#039;d have been pretty happy if the Ultima games thenceforth all became refinements of the U4 &#039;plan&#039; -- increasing the sophistication of &#039;Virtue-tracking&#039;; chucking in some neato side-quests containing extra armaments and moral quandaries that affect your Virtue standing; branching chains of consequence according to your particular moral leanings; fixing that &lt;i&gt;horrible&lt;/i&gt; combat system...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>You say this, yet then go on to describe a bunch of things the game did that very few games ever made have done (I haven’t played it, so I don’t know how well the comments apply), so I’m curious about this comment; whether it holds up or not is irrelevant if it has done unique things like that, and it sounds like it fully deserves every mention it gets in the history of gaming (and, in fact, would be a crime if it wasn’t)</p></blockquote>
<p>Their innovations being unique implies that said innovations weren&#8217;t taken up by future creators &#8212; since they apparently got left behind by history, regardless of merit, there&#8217;d be no point including them as any more than a footnote in a &#8216;historical nar&#8211;</p>
<p>Why are we talking about this?</p>
<p>Anyway, I&#8217;d have been interested to see more game-makers try messing with goal/endgame conventions after Ultima IV.  I can see why they didn&#8217;t &#8212; I&#8217;ve racked my brains trying to think of how I&#8217;d TOTALLY MESS WITH THE MINDS OF GAMING&#8217;S MONOSEXUAL PATRIARCHY (oops, went a bit &#8216;Torchwood&#8217; there, *ostentatiously kisses gay man*) without just, y&#8217;know, ripping off Ultima IV myself, but I&#8217;m sure there are plenty of answers out there.  U4 has a final dungeon, and a &#8216;network&#8217; of quests to give you the impetus to travel, but largely you progress in its thoroughly open world by living in the accordance with the 8 Virtues, thereby becoming the Messiah (or just a Very Naughty Boy if you used the Skull of Mondain.  Tisk tisk!)</p>
<p>Heck, I&#8217;d have been pretty happy if the Ultima games thenceforth all became refinements of the U4 &#8216;plan&#8217; &#8212; increasing the sophistication of &#8216;Virtue-tracking&#8217;; chucking in some neato side-quests containing extra armaments and moral quandaries that affect your Virtue standing; branching chains of consequence according to your particular moral leanings; fixing that <i>horrible</i> combat system&#8230;
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/18/generation-games/#comment-32890</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 02:41:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>System Shock showed me the best way to do difficulty settings.  Sadly noone else paid heed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>System Shock showed me the best way to do difficulty settings.  Sadly noone else paid heed.
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		<title>By: cannon fodder</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/18/generation-games/#comment-32864</link>
		<dc:creator>cannon fodder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 19:14:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1351#comment-32864</guid>
		<description>Deus Ex and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines taught me that RPG + FPS = satisfying treat with immense replay value as I try to subvert my natural play-style.

Counterstrike (1.3-6 + CS:S) and Call of Duty (1-4) taught me:

- Aim for the back of the head in short bursts.
- No-one likes snipers. 
- Having a scoped weapon does not make you a sniper.
- Players called &quot;Vasily Zaytsev&quot; are not snipers.
- Avoid standing about in open spaces.
- Keep X-hairs at the head level of a crouching enemy.
- Reloading going round corners/through doorways = pain.
- Few people are cheating, but there are lots of bad losers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deus Ex and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines taught me that RPG + FPS = satisfying treat with immense replay value as I try to subvert my natural play-style.</p>
<p>Counterstrike (1.3-6 + CS:S) and Call of Duty (1-4) taught me:</p>
<p>- Aim for the back of the head in short bursts.<br />
- No-one likes snipers.<br />
- Having a scoped weapon does not make you a sniper.<br />
- Players called &#8220;Vasily Zaytsev&#8221; are not snipers.<br />
- Avoid standing about in open spaces.<br />
- Keep X-hairs at the head level of a crouching enemy.<br />
- Reloading going round corners/through doorways = pain.<br />
- Few people are cheating, but there are lots of bad losers.
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		<title>By: Omnibus: March 16th - 22nd &#124; Rock, Paper, Shotgun: Pretentious, moi?</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/18/generation-games/#comment-32807</link>
		<dc:creator>Omnibus: March 16th - 22nd &#124; Rock, Paper, Shotgun: Pretentious, moi?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:29:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] What did games teach you to expect from the future? What a complex question. Kieron interviews Audiosurf&#8217;s creator Dylan Fitterer. He made a few bob. The RPS verdict on Dawn of War: Soulstorm. We mostly like it, but meh. Rogue-like competition stuff. ACSII LOL. Kieron&#8217;s photo journalism in That London. Play dress-up. Kieron&#8217;s photo journalism in That London. Part two. Sex game amusement. Jim gets aroused easily. John looks at Scott Miller&#8217;s promises. Jim goes weird over Sudden Strike 3. Civ: Revolutions, makes Alec wordthink. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] What did games teach you to expect from the future? What a complex question. Kieron interviews Audiosurf&#8217;s creator Dylan Fitterer. He made a few bob. The RPS verdict on Dawn of War: Soulstorm. We mostly like it, but meh. Rogue-like competition stuff. ACSII LOL. Kieron&#8217;s photo journalism in That London. Play dress-up. Kieron&#8217;s photo journalism in That London. Part two. Sex game amusement. Jim gets aroused easily. John looks at Scott Miller&#8217;s promises. Jim goes weird over Sudden Strike 3. Civ: Revolutions, makes Alec wordthink. [...]
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		<title>By: Lachlan</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/18/generation-games/#comment-32311</link>
		<dc:creator>Lachlan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:22:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The X-COM games made me realise you could lose a battle and still win the war. To this day I grind my teeth at arbitrary MISSION FAILED screens. 

The Battlezone series taught me that RTS and FPS genres could merge seemlessly, each genre providing to the hybrid something neither knew it lacked. It also showed how fun sliding around in low gravity could be, and did some lovely alien environments (anyone remember the Venus chemical fog?). Alas, there never was an RTS/FPS hybrid that sold well.

And System Shock 2 taught me a good design team could make any location believable, with a little effort and thought. For me half the fear in that game was generated by the way the environment /made sense/ - in most FPSes, corpses on the floor were just doodads. In Shock 2, you actually started to look around and try to work out what had killed this group of heavily-armed people...and was it still around?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The X-COM games made me realise you could lose a battle and still win the war. To this day I grind my teeth at arbitrary MISSION FAILED screens. </p>
<p>The Battlezone series taught me that RTS and FPS genres could merge seemlessly, each genre providing to the hybrid something neither knew it lacked. It also showed how fun sliding around in low gravity could be, and did some lovely alien environments (anyone remember the Venus chemical fog?). Alas, there never was an RTS/FPS hybrid that sold well.</p>
<p>And System Shock 2 taught me a good design team could make any location believable, with a little effort and thought. For me half the fear in that game was generated by the way the environment /made sense/ &#8211; in most FPSes, corpses on the floor were just doodads. In Shock 2, you actually started to look around and try to work out what had killed this group of heavily-armed people&#8230;and was it still around?
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		<title>By: Robin</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/18/generation-games/#comment-32257</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 14:23:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>This was the kind of thing I was thinking about when writing about &lt;a href=&quot;http://citystate.co.uk/archives/stunt-island/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Stunt Island&lt;/a&gt;. There have been times when developers, usually working outside of the limelight of risk-averse, mega-bucks development, have tried ridiculously ambitious and innovative things. Midwinter, Another World, Syndicate and UFO were other good ones.

Betrayal at Krondor was another one that had an impact. Not necessarily the way it chose to technically realise it&#039;s world (it looks like a gouraud-shaded golf game with naff digitised actors pasted on top), but the completely unbound from convention, MacGuyveresque design ethos: exploration was a mix of Dungeon Master and Midwinter, combat was straight out of an early Ultima, cities were matte paintings with hotspots, and much of the plot recounted through plain old screens of text. It had word puzzles and grave robbing and overwrought descriptive prose for trying to use the wrong objects with each other.

Bioware&#039;s games were (by their own acknowledgment) massively indebted to the basic RPG mechanics (skills, inventory, etc) but went down the route of specialising their engines and trowelling on tons of &#039;content&#039;.

More recent action games (starting with Mafia) have been a modern take on this ethos, not making a driving or a fighting engine, but making a great generalised engine that can support a wide range of activities as the plot demands.

While I&#039;m going off on one, I should probably mention &lt;a href=&quot;http://citystate.co.uk/archives/silent-storm/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Silent Storm&lt;/a&gt; as well. The turn based tactics paradigm with a simulation taken to extremes that haven&#039;t been replicated, well, anywhere. I would buy a game that reimplemented it&#039;s mechanics in a modern engine in a femtosecond. Give it a character-driven story and you&#039;d have an episodic game that could run and run.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was the kind of thing I was thinking about when writing about <a href="http://citystate.co.uk/archives/stunt-island/" rel="nofollow">Stunt Island</a>. There have been times when developers, usually working outside of the limelight of risk-averse, mega-bucks development, have tried ridiculously ambitious and innovative things. Midwinter, Another World, Syndicate and UFO were other good ones.</p>
<p>Betrayal at Krondor was another one that had an impact. Not necessarily the way it chose to technically realise it&#8217;s world (it looks like a gouraud-shaded golf game with naff digitised actors pasted on top), but the completely unbound from convention, MacGuyveresque design ethos: exploration was a mix of Dungeon Master and Midwinter, combat was straight out of an early Ultima, cities were matte paintings with hotspots, and much of the plot recounted through plain old screens of text. It had word puzzles and grave robbing and overwrought descriptive prose for trying to use the wrong objects with each other.</p>
<p>Bioware&#8217;s games were (by their own acknowledgment) massively indebted to the basic RPG mechanics (skills, inventory, etc) but went down the route of specialising their engines and trowelling on tons of &#8216;content&#8217;.</p>
<p>More recent action games (starting with Mafia) have been a modern take on this ethos, not making a driving or a fighting engine, but making a great generalised engine that can support a wide range of activities as the plot demands.</p>
<p>While I&#8217;m going off on one, I should probably mention <a href="http://citystate.co.uk/archives/silent-storm/" rel="nofollow">Silent Storm</a> as well. The turn based tactics paradigm with a simulation taken to extremes that haven&#8217;t been replicated, well, anywhere. I would buy a game that reimplemented it&#8217;s mechanics in a modern engine in a femtosecond. Give it a character-driven story and you&#8217;d have an episodic game that could run and run.
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		<title>By: The Archetype</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/18/generation-games/#comment-32179</link>
		<dc:creator>The Archetype</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 01:59:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Civilization II taught me that there was a future for games that  take months to play, forgetting about them over time and then picking them up again later, just to ultimately come in second. Most games that force you to work on that kind of timescale are awful, which is why there haven&#039;t been many, but there&#039;s certainly a lot of design space in that style of gameplay that hasn&#039;t been mined yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Civilization II taught me that there was a future for games that  take months to play, forgetting about them over time and then picking them up again later, just to ultimately come in second. Most games that force you to work on that kind of timescale are awful, which is why there haven&#8217;t been many, but there&#8217;s certainly a lot of design space in that style of gameplay that hasn&#8217;t been mined yet.
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		<title>By: Ging</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/18/generation-games/#comment-32174</link>
		<dc:creator>Ging</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 01:32:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Planetside taught me that MMOs could be fun - nothing quite like having a squadron of Reavers arsing about across a continent. I think I&#039;ll always remember the guy who accused me of cheating because I saw his cloak shimmer while he was hiding from us.

He&#039;d set up an AMS for himself so he kept popping back in the same area - I don&#039;t think the thought of running away went through his mind, even with 6 Reavers floating around overhead.

That video was awesome - even had a couple of things just about right (GPS, self driving vehicles (see DARPA Grand Challenge)).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Planetside taught me that MMOs could be fun &#8211; nothing quite like having a squadron of Reavers arsing about across a continent. I think I&#8217;ll always remember the guy who accused me of cheating because I saw his cloak shimmer while he was hiding from us.</p>
<p>He&#8217;d set up an AMS for himself so he kept popping back in the same area &#8211; I don&#8217;t think the thought of running away went through his mind, even with 6 Reavers floating around overhead.</p>
<p>That video was awesome &#8211; even had a couple of things just about right (GPS, self driving vehicles (see DARPA Grand Challenge)).
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		<title>By: caramelcarrot</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/03/18/generation-games/#comment-32171</link>
		<dc:creator>caramelcarrot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 01:10:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Natural Selection taught me that after the attempts of games like Counter Strike and Frontline Force, true blissful teamplay based tactical squad combat was actually attainable - and it has never been really replicated since.

The teamfortress 2 previews way back when made me dream of multiplayer games where you could drive anywhere in tanks or fly or walk, engaging in delicious tactical teamplay - Battlefield 1942 and BF2 brought those, though didn&#039;t pull off teamplay anywhere near as well as NS. Teamplay shouldn&#039;t be something that&#039;s coerced with point systems, but something absolutely necessary to survive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Natural Selection taught me that after the attempts of games like Counter Strike and Frontline Force, true blissful teamplay based tactical squad combat was actually attainable &#8211; and it has never been really replicated since.</p>
<p>The teamfortress 2 previews way back when made me dream of multiplayer games where you could drive anywhere in tanks or fly or walk, engaging in delicious tactical teamplay &#8211; Battlefield 1942 and BF2 brought those, though didn&#8217;t pull off teamplay anywhere near as well as NS. Teamplay shouldn&#8217;t be something that&#8217;s coerced with point systems, but something absolutely necessary to survive.
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