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	<title>Comments on: The Sunday Papers</title>
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	<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/27/the-sunday-papers-15/</link>
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		<title>By: Kadayi</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/27/the-sunday-papers-15/comment-page-1/#comment-43641</link>
		<dc:creator>Kadayi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 23:47:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1635#comment-43641</guid>
		<description>@Rook

Much like watching the proverbial lady exiting the car, sometime you see it, and sometimes you don&#039;t, and clearly in this case you don&#039;t. You didn&#039;t like his review, I did and we&#039;ll leave it at that, so as not to provoke the RPS gods further.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Rook</p>
<p>Much like watching the proverbial lady exiting the car, sometime you see it, and sometimes you don&#8217;t, and clearly in this case you don&#8217;t. You didn&#8217;t like his review, I did and we&#8217;ll leave it at that, so as not to provoke the RPS gods further.</p>
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		<title>By: RPS</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/27/the-sunday-papers-15/comment-page-1/#comment-43414</link>
		<dc:creator>RPS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:17:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1635#comment-43414</guid>
		<description>Play nice, gentlemen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Play nice, gentlemen.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Rook</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/27/the-sunday-papers-15/comment-page-1/#comment-43412</link>
		<dc:creator>Rook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:14:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1635#comment-43412</guid>
		<description>kadayi: You&#039;ve basically said nothing there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>kadayi: You&#8217;ve basically said nothing there.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: kadayi</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/27/the-sunday-papers-15/comment-page-1/#comment-43282</link>
		<dc:creator>kadayi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:56:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1635#comment-43282</guid>
		<description>@Rook

Trying to assess a game (or anything else creative) critically outside of it&#039;s context is absurd. Everything exists within a frame.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Rook</p>
<p>Trying to assess a game (or anything else creative) critically outside of it&#8217;s context is absurd. Everything exists within a frame.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Rook</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/27/the-sunday-papers-15/comment-page-1/#comment-43238</link>
		<dc:creator>Rook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 10:24:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1635#comment-43238</guid>
		<description>Kadayi: It&#039;s not a fair assessment as NWN2 isn&#039;t a particularly great game, and it has nothing to do with the rules or lack of them.  Saying if you like D&amp;D rules you&#039;ll like NWN2 is fucking retarded.  The rules have so little bearing on the game compared to say broken AI, pathfinding, camera, mission bugs etc.  

And honestly, if you can cope with the combat and rules in Planescape or Baldur&#039;s Gate, it&#039;s 99% the same as NWN2.  Cast spells, hit things and backstab.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kadayi: It&#8217;s not a fair assessment as NWN2 isn&#8217;t a particularly great game, and it has nothing to do with the rules or lack of them.  Saying if you like D&#038;D rules you&#8217;ll like NWN2 is fucking retarded.  The rules have so little bearing on the game compared to say broken AI, pathfinding, camera, mission bugs etc.  </p>
<p>And honestly, if you can cope with the combat and rules in Planescape or Baldur&#8217;s Gate, it&#8217;s 99% the same as NWN2.  Cast spells, hit things and backstab.</p>
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		<title>By: Noc</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/27/the-sunday-papers-15/comment-page-1/#comment-43192</link>
		<dc:creator>Noc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 01:27:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1635#comment-43192</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t played through NWN2 (computer can&#039;t run it), but considering how complete crap the NWN1 campaign was, I can believe every word.

And the original NWN Campaign is probably the worst RPG experience I&#039;ve ever had.  Every so often I think &quot;Hey, I never finished it.  I should go back and play it through.&quot;  And then I get a few chapters in, and then realize exactly how tedious it is.

The subsequent expansions were &lt;i&gt;alright,&lt;/i&gt; if not particularly inspiring.  Still, even with the official campaigns being mediocre (at best), and my relationship with DnD ambivalent (at best), I still &lt;i&gt;really really like&lt;/i&gt; NWN.  Why? 

Because the DnD system, at it&#039;s heart, is a facilitator for storytelling.  The point of a roleplaying system is that it figures things out for you; instead of sitting down and trying to puzzle out if Batman could beat Superman or something, you&#039;ve got two blocks of stats, and two sets of tools, which then play against each other until someone ends up with negative hit points.  Yes, the things that it figures out are nearly entirely combat oriented, or progress oriented, or &quot;shit you find in a dungeon&quot; oriented, but that&#039;s because human characters tend to be too complex to be flattened into a stat block.  So the logic of emotion and motivation and such is left to the devices of the GM and the players.  

Is DnD a labyrinthine, feature-bloated system that arguably gets in the &lt;i&gt;way&lt;/i&gt; of storytelling?  Arguably.  Actually, on second thought, &quot;yes.&quot;  It is.  It totally is.  There are far better systems to work with.  But even then, NWN helps alleviate that somewhat by taking care of all that stuff for you.  You don&#039;t need to worry about whether or not you&#039;ve applied your Dodge AC bonus this round, so you can worry about other things.

So, if DnD, and by extension, NWN is a facilitator for storytelling rather than a game in its own right, then what do you do?  Well, you tell stories.  And you share them, and play through other people&#039;s.  And NWN is one of the only games &lt;i&gt;specifically designed to let you do that.&lt;/i&gt;  It&#039;s a game that revolves around user-created content.  It&#039;s a facilitator, as much as the DnD system is, taking care of the graphical representation of the world and the people, and the rules for how they can physically interact - it&#039;s essentially doing all the hard bits for you, and letting you get on with making a game.

None of the player-made NWN modules I played changed my life.  I don&#039;t think there were any Torments in there.  But there were several very decent bits there, and PLENTY that were better than the official campaign.

A lot of the criticisms about the rules system being labyrinthine are on-target.  And I believe the bits about the campaign, even without seeing them firsthand.  But I feel like the Game itself is more about providing people with storytelling tools than anything else, and that the Official Campaign is more like sample material.  A &quot;Here, look at what the engine can do!&quot; thing, as opposed to a game in and of itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t played through NWN2 (computer can&#8217;t run it), but considering how complete crap the NWN1 campaign was, I can believe every word.</p>
<p>And the original NWN Campaign is probably the worst RPG experience I&#8217;ve ever had.  Every so often I think &#8220;Hey, I never finished it.  I should go back and play it through.&#8221;  And then I get a few chapters in, and then realize exactly how tedious it is.</p>
<p>The subsequent expansions were <i>alright,</i> if not particularly inspiring.  Still, even with the official campaigns being mediocre (at best), and my relationship with DnD ambivalent (at best), I still <i>really really like</i> NWN.  Why? </p>
<p>Because the DnD system, at it&#8217;s heart, is a facilitator for storytelling.  The point of a roleplaying system is that it figures things out for you; instead of sitting down and trying to puzzle out if Batman could beat Superman or something, you&#8217;ve got two blocks of stats, and two sets of tools, which then play against each other until someone ends up with negative hit points.  Yes, the things that it figures out are nearly entirely combat oriented, or progress oriented, or &#8220;shit you find in a dungeon&#8221; oriented, but that&#8217;s because human characters tend to be too complex to be flattened into a stat block.  So the logic of emotion and motivation and such is left to the devices of the GM and the players.  </p>
<p>Is DnD a labyrinthine, feature-bloated system that arguably gets in the <i>way</i> of storytelling?  Arguably.  Actually, on second thought, &#8220;yes.&#8221;  It is.  It totally is.  There are far better systems to work with.  But even then, NWN helps alleviate that somewhat by taking care of all that stuff for you.  You don&#8217;t need to worry about whether or not you&#8217;ve applied your Dodge AC bonus this round, so you can worry about other things.</p>
<p>So, if DnD, and by extension, NWN is a facilitator for storytelling rather than a game in its own right, then what do you do?  Well, you tell stories.  And you share them, and play through other people&#8217;s.  And NWN is one of the only games <i>specifically designed to let you do that.</i>  It&#8217;s a game that revolves around user-created content.  It&#8217;s a facilitator, as much as the DnD system is, taking care of the graphical representation of the world and the people, and the rules for how they can physically interact &#8211; it&#8217;s essentially doing all the hard bits for you, and letting you get on with making a game.</p>
<p>None of the player-made NWN modules I played changed my life.  I don&#8217;t think there were any Torments in there.  But there were several very decent bits there, and PLENTY that were better than the official campaign.</p>
<p>A lot of the criticisms about the rules system being labyrinthine are on-target.  And I believe the bits about the campaign, even without seeing them firsthand.  But I feel like the Game itself is more about providing people with storytelling tools than anything else, and that the Official Campaign is more like sample material.  A &#8220;Here, look at what the engine can do!&#8221; thing, as opposed to a game in and of itself.</p>
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		<title>By: Kadayi</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/27/the-sunday-papers-15/comment-page-1/#comment-43181</link>
		<dc:creator>Kadayi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 23:47:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1635#comment-43181</guid>
		<description>@Rook

If he was writing a review for a D&amp;D specific audience, you might vaguely have a point, but the guy was writing a review for a general PC gaming magazine, so he&#039;s looking at it in the broadest context of computer gaming, not simply whether it&#039;s better or worse in terms of how it implements D&amp;D rules compared to Baldurs Gate or Icewind Dale. One accepts that with a game like Madden or Fifa, the rules applicable to the sports they represent are sacrosanct in terms of gaming mechanics, but that kind of rigour hardly needs to be applied to cRPGs. Planescape torment was D&amp;D based, but it was all over the shop in terms of how it went vs D&amp;D rules. Did anyone give a shit at the end of the day about that? No, because it had a great story driving it. The guy pretty much said, if you love the D&amp;D rules you&#039;ll love NWN2, however if your looking for something different, look elsewhere. I&#039;d say that&#039;s a pretty fair assessment tbh. 

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Rook</p>
<p>If he was writing a review for a D&amp;D specific audience, you might vaguely have a point, but the guy was writing a review for a general PC gaming magazine, so he&#8217;s looking at it in the broadest context of computer gaming, not simply whether it&#8217;s better or worse in terms of how it implements D&amp;D rules compared to Baldurs Gate or Icewind Dale. One accepts that with a game like Madden or Fifa, the rules applicable to the sports they represent are sacrosanct in terms of gaming mechanics, but that kind of rigour hardly needs to be applied to cRPGs. Planescape torment was D&amp;D based, but it was all over the shop in terms of how it went vs D&amp;D rules. Did anyone give a shit at the end of the day about that? No, because it had a great story driving it. The guy pretty much said, if you love the D&amp;D rules you&#8217;ll love NWN2, however if your looking for something different, look elsewhere. I&#8217;d say that&#8217;s a pretty fair assessment tbh.</p>
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		<title>By: Rook</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/27/the-sunday-papers-15/comment-page-1/#comment-43180</link>
		<dc:creator>Rook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 23:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1635#comment-43180</guid>
		<description>But how you get to the score, I think is important.  Afterall, 
reviewers are always complaining that the content of the reviews is as important as the number itself

I think the re-review does this quite well (6/10 - Jeff Green).  The game is a bunch of clichés, was horrendously buggy at release, horrible system requirements etc although it has some moments of charm which certainly put it above average - the second chapter that climaxes in the court room scene I thought was well done).

But, and this is the important part,  when a more polished version of the game with a better story comes along (Mask of the Betrayer) then it becomes a good game.  But for people that found the combat to overwhelm their ability to enjoy the game, then I don&#039;t think anything is going to fix that. 

After reading through Duncan Fyfe’s articles a few times, I find them a bit contradictory.  I honestly wonder how he&#039;d react if Planescape came out for the first time tomorrow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But how you get to the score, I think is important.  Afterall,<br />
reviewers are always complaining that the content of the reviews is as important as the number itself</p>
<p>I think the re-review does this quite well (6/10 &#8211; Jeff Green).  The game is a bunch of clichés, was horrendously buggy at release, horrible system requirements etc although it has some moments of charm which certainly put it above average &#8211; the second chapter that climaxes in the court room scene I thought was well done).</p>
<p>But, and this is the important part,  when a more polished version of the game with a better story comes along (Mask of the Betrayer) then it becomes a good game.  But for people that found the combat to overwhelm their ability to enjoy the game, then I don&#8217;t think anything is going to fix that. </p>
<p>After reading through Duncan Fyfe’s articles a few times, I find them a bit contradictory.  I honestly wonder how he&#8217;d react if Planescape came out for the first time tomorrow.</p>
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		<title>By: Albides</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/27/the-sunday-papers-15/comment-page-1/#comment-43176</link>
		<dc:creator>Albides</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 22:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1635#comment-43176</guid>
		<description>Yes, but if a game sets its sights on doing an RPG by-the-numbers, as the 1up reviewer thought this was, should we really praise it if it gets it right? Isn&#039;t this merely encouraging mediocrity? If a 5 is an average, I think it&#039;s a reasonable score.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, but if a game sets its sights on doing an RPG by-the-numbers, as the 1up reviewer thought this was, should we really praise it if it gets it right? Isn&#8217;t this merely encouraging mediocrity? If a 5 is an average, I think it&#8217;s a reasonable score.</p>
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		<title>By: Rook</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/27/the-sunday-papers-15/comment-page-1/#comment-43170</link>
		<dc:creator>Rook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 22:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1635#comment-43170</guid>
		<description>I think the original 1up NWN2 review brings up the problem of whether your review serves the audience.  I don&#039;t think anyone would seriously take a review of Madden that bitched about the futility of that 10 yard gain and silly scoring system and try to spin it as an arguement for the &quot;progression of the medium of computer games&quot;.  I think a review should deal with what a game has done, rather than what the reviewer wanted it to be.   If you know you don&#039;t like american football, I wouldn&#039;t pick up Madden, and if I didn&#039;t like D&amp;D, I wouldn&#039;t buy NWN2.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the original 1up NWN2 review brings up the problem of whether your review serves the audience.  I don&#8217;t think anyone would seriously take a review of Madden that bitched about the futility of that 10 yard gain and silly scoring system and try to spin it as an arguement for the &#8220;progression of the medium of computer games&#8221;.  I think a review should deal with what a game has done, rather than what the reviewer wanted it to be.   If you know you don&#8217;t like american football, I wouldn&#8217;t pick up Madden, and if I didn&#8217;t like D&amp;D, I wouldn&#8217;t buy NWN2.</p>
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		<title>By: fluffy bunny</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/27/the-sunday-papers-15/comment-page-1/#comment-43163</link>
		<dc:creator>fluffy bunny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 21:54:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1635#comment-43163</guid>
		<description>The Amiga tribute video was genius. Cool that Eric Schwarz is still around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Amiga tribute video was genius. Cool that Eric Schwarz is still around.</p>
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		<title>By: Kadayi</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/27/the-sunday-papers-15/comment-page-1/#comment-43155</link>
		<dc:creator>Kadayi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 20:23:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=1635#comment-43155</guid>
		<description>Interesting stuff about NWN2 and the pulled article (which I had to read as well). I can understand why the NWN fan base got so hot under the collar about it, but I have to admire Mr Peckhams honesty as a computer games reviewer assessing it as a computer game, with a view to the progression of the medium of computer games, rather than it&#039;s strengths as a solo D&amp;D campaign. 

Particularly insightful was his closing comment:-

&quot;That five-of-10 is actually a hedge, by the way. For D&amp;D fans who want to play an amazingly thorough PC translation of the system they’re carting around in book form, it’s probably closer an eight or nine. But if, like me, you want less “rules for rule’s sake” and more depth and beauty to your simulated game worlds, you can certainly find more exciting prospects. Part of the reason we call them “the good old days” and think fondly of games past is that it’s always easier to love what we don’t have to play anymore.&quot; 

One of the aspects of computer gaming I personally enjoy is  how the medium is constantly evolving in terms of storytelling, environmental complexity and visual fidelity. Recently I played through all of GTA 3, then moved onto Vice City and am right now on the final stretch of San Andreas. It&#039;s been quite fascinating to play them all back to back and experience the way in which albeit the core game elements are the same (Drive around, undertake missions, shoot guns), with each iteration the product has moved on. I look with envious eyes at Rockstars latest offering (cmon PC release announcement...weedle it out of them Kieron, you must know someone at R*NORTH), and I can&#039;t help but think if there is such a thing as progressive PC role playing, it&#039;s not found in NWN2 or it&#039;s ilk these days but in sandbox games like GTA IV, where the statistics are secondary to the action/immersion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting stuff about NWN2 and the pulled article (which I had to read as well). I can understand why the NWN fan base got so hot under the collar about it, but I have to admire Mr Peckhams honesty as a computer games reviewer assessing it as a computer game, with a view to the progression of the medium of computer games, rather than it&#8217;s strengths as a solo D&amp;D campaign. </p>
<p>Particularly insightful was his closing comment:-</p>
<p>&#8220;That five-of-10 is actually a hedge, by the way. For D&amp;D fans who want to play an amazingly thorough PC translation of the system they’re carting around in book form, it’s probably closer an eight or nine. But if, like me, you want less “rules for rule’s sake” and more depth and beauty to your simulated game worlds, you can certainly find more exciting prospects. Part of the reason we call them “the good old days” and think fondly of games past is that it’s always easier to love what we don’t have to play anymore.&#8221; </p>
<p>One of the aspects of computer gaming I personally enjoy is  how the medium is constantly evolving in terms of storytelling, environmental complexity and visual fidelity. Recently I played through all of GTA 3, then moved onto Vice City and am right now on the final stretch of San Andreas. It&#8217;s been quite fascinating to play them all back to back and experience the way in which albeit the core game elements are the same (Drive around, undertake missions, shoot guns), with each iteration the product has moved on. I look with envious eyes at Rockstars latest offering (cmon PC release announcement&#8230;weedle it out of them Kieron, you must know someone at R*NORTH), and I can&#8217;t help but think if there is such a thing as progressive PC role playing, it&#8217;s not found in NWN2 or it&#8217;s ilk these days but in sandbox games like GTA IV, where the statistics are secondary to the action/immersion.</p>
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