Rock, Paper, Shotgun

07/05/2008 at 00:27 Kadayi says:

The shit has hit the fan over that one for sure. Pity Valves Steamworks pack has only just came out, I think that would of been a better route to go down and received less negative commentary. Any DRM ultimately gets bypassed, and this one runs the risk that the pirates might end up invalidating legitimate users codes further down the line….

07/05/2008 at 00:32 Riotpoll says:

Should either check the internet for no-disc play or need the disc in the drive for offline play; somewhat similar to Company of Heroes does these days.
Obviously they don’t understand some people are behind restrictive firewalls (like me at Uni) and can’t have millions of ports open!

07/05/2008 at 00:34 bob says:

No matter what they do for drm it will always be cracked eventually. Maybe it won’t be cracked within the first week or even month, but eventually it will. Doing this you are only going to piss off legal consumers.
If this is how the drm in the game is going to be I won’t buy it till a crack is released. Then I’ll buy it and apply the crack.

07/05/2008 at 00:44 Shih Tzu says:

One of these days I’ll play Bioshock, since I’ve heard such good things. But I hate FPS controls on consoles and I’ve yet to be convinced why I should accept SecuROM on my PC, so until one of these elements changes I’ll find other things to do with my time and money. Same with Mass Effect and Spore. This decision has cost 2K and EA a potential sale.

07/05/2008 at 00:45 Frymaster says:

why can’t they just use Steam and get it over with? They are having to re-check because they can’t tie a cd-key down to an individual, and because just checking the key on install and then not letting anyone else use it requires knowing who the individual is, unless you go down the “x many installs” route which is just so popular. Equally, noone wants to sign up for yet ANOTHER online account which they’ll have forgotten about come reinstall time.

Also, steam solves the distributor’s-dodgy-staff-liberating-a-copy problem which is how the 0-day piracy happens, which is the main source of illegal copies that might actually have been revenue. And steam’s community stuff might tie in well with Spore. And if you don’t have internet access after install it never invalidates. And EA’s servers always crumble to the ground when patches are due out. I could go on.

edit: wow, there were no comments when I started my rant! :D

those saying meh: a ludicrously large proportion of the UK isn’t on broadband.

Shih Tzu: “I’ve yet to be convinced why I should accept SecuROM on my PC” – You could equally say “I’ve yet to be convinced why installing j.random game requires Bink dlls or certain codecs”. True, I don’t have it either, but that’s because there’s a limit enforced as to reinstalls. The fact that it has SecuROM per se has nothing to do with it

07/05/2008 at 00:53 bobince says:

Cunningbeef: the original post is indeed unclear, but a later post in the topic says:

For clarity, though, an internet connection is not required to install, just to activate the first time, and every 10 days after.

So it is indeed – effectively – a connection every 5-10 days.

I realise arguing isn’t going to change anyone’s position on the P-issue these days, but here are two games that are definitely never seeing any money from me now.

(“A quick and painless check” – yeah, tell that to the people who bought tracks from MSN Music.)

07/05/2008 at 00:59 Doug F says:

I know this isn’t the point, but how many people are going to have the kind of computer needed to run a game like Spore or Mass Effect, and not have an internet connection?

EDIT – Bobince’s comment is my bigger worry. As someone who plays games years/decades after their release, what happens when the authentication servers get shut off on their end?

Maybe this is wishful thinking, but could a company perhaps implement such draconian DRM initially, and then lift it after 6 months to a year, once the demand for pirated copies goes down?

07/05/2008 at 01:05 mandrill says:

You’d have thought that SecureROM would have been totally discredited by now, EA were beginning to turn a corner, gaining the respect of gamers by displaying some kind of innovation, not only in the games themselves but also in how they are delivered to their customers. With this move I reckon they’ve gone and shot themselves in the foot.

Piracy is going to happen, and the only developer/publisher I’ve seen that’s being realistic about it is Stardock. Spore and Mass Effect will be cracked and pirated within a week of release (if not before) and things will continue as normal. I was really looking forward to Spore but now I’m not so sure. As a game it looks to be something very special but, as is the way with these things, the men in suits have gotten their way and legitimate users will more than likely suffer for it. The pirates don’t care, they’re not the ones kicking up a fuss when the DRM goes tits up, because they bypass it. EA are risking drowning one of the games of the year in effluent because they only see the bottom line. The fact is that pirates won’t be buying the game anyway, EA’s move will only inconvenience those that legitimately buy the game.

07/05/2008 at 01:15 Dot says:

I don’t really mind this if it helps fend off piracy. Bioshock’s DRM did and this is about the same except without the overly too harsh general application-it won’t have stuff like max number of lifetime installs or something like that. Seriously.
Most games distributed not on DD require CD checks, which are even more annoying than automated online verification, nearly all digitally distributed games already have stuff like that, and um, basically I am not seeing what’s the problem here-it remains the same thing for DD, and only replaces the obnoxiousness of having to swap CDs for retail buyers.
Besides, everyone who is posting about this on this issue probably has an internet connection so they don’t have an excuse to complain, unless they are really worried about internet outages lasting longer than a week, and that’s it I guess.

Oh and as far as Digital Distribution is concerned, I’d really like to see this on Steam, but Electronic Arts are probably going to use it to push EA Link. As much as that service sucks, I guess I’ll have to use that in the end. =/

07/05/2008 at 01:27 Indagator says:

@Dot The problem is, of course, that it won’t do a lick to prevent piracy.

I mean, seriously: does any actually believe that casual piracy of “I ripped this DVD for my friend” variety is actually what’s killing sales? Come on, it’s 2008! If someone wants to pirate something, they fire up bit-torrent or eMule, and as others have already mentioned, all it takes is one pirate group to crack it and it’s suddenly out there for the entire world. Personally, I give it maybe two weeks before the cracks are out.

One other thing that I saw mentioned on the quartertothree forums is that the DRM will limit you to three installs of the game. After that, you will apparently have to call up to get your account revalidated or some other nonsense. Hope you don’t like playing games more than once!

The worst part of all this, though, is they’re spending a ton of money for absolutely no gain. I just can’t fathom what’s going on in the heads of the suits at EA. I can understand how much it must burn to see something you poured time and energy being used without receiving compensation, but there’s a break even. You have to wonder how much such an elaborate setup (authorization servers, call center, the DRM itself) is going to cost.

07/05/2008 at 01:34 Cooper says:

If the biggest issue (as far as I’m aware) is the first-week sales – where’s the need for perpetual online-ness?

Sure, ‘everyone is online nowadays’. But that doesn’t quite cut it.
First off, many students in halls are behind firewalls.
Then there is the obvious issue of what happens after a few years and the servers are taken down.
Finally, I’m just not comfortable with this ‘phone home’ deal. Call me paranoid, but I’m not one for trusting large corporations.
And, most importantly – why complicate things for those who /gave you their money/?

I was looking forward to spore. But I’m behind a firewall (even postgrads here) and will have to wait for a crack. (Which is gonna happen, pretty soon I’d guess, especially as this is even more of an enticing challenge). In which case, I might as well just get a pirate version…

07/05/2008 at 01:36 Rustkill says:

I think CunningBeef is the only person to have mentioned this… But to me it looks like it’s a matter of rechecking the activation within ten days of the first activation “in case the CD Key has become public/warez’d and gets banned”. If the computer isn’t online within those first 10 days nothing happens, but after those first 10 days if there’s no recheck the game gets locked until the recheck happens. Seems to me that as long as you do that recheck once after the first activation you will be fine. Not sure where the “every ten days” idea is coming from tbh.

07/05/2008 at 01:44 DosFreak says:

The “Every 10 days” comes from the BioWare Community forums:

Here is the Part 1 Thread: http://masseffect.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=628375&forum=125&sp=180

I’ve created a FAQ since they don’t have one on their site. The FAQ was compiled from Part 1 and Part 2 of the activation thread on the BioWare Community forums:

http://vogons.zetafleet.com/viewtopic.php?t=18522

07/05/2008 at 01:56 SenatorPalpatine says:

Out of reading the comments, I think I only read one that supported what EA is doing (some who thought the internet check is only once at beginning and again after 10 days), the first one.

Maybe the popular uproar will be enough that EA realizes that this DRM policy makes them appear to be dickholes in the eyes of most people.

07/05/2008 at 01:56 Mickiscoole says:

@Rustkill
http://masseffect.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=628375&forum=125&sp=15
Second post down:
“For clarity, though, an internet connection is not required to install, just to activate the first time, and every 10 days after.”

07/05/2008 at 02:04 wyrmsine says:

Given that my internet provider recently shut off my internet for three weeks by accident, I find it hard to support this security feature. Both titles just became games I’d rather pirate, because it just makes more sense to have a game that works.

(long story short, and as near as I can figure it: My dad tried downgrading his net access, and it seems he got my fast connection and I got bupkiss. That’s at a guess, mind, no good answer was given me, but tech support kept confusing our phone numbers, and once, our names…. No mean feat, considering we don’t live in the same city…)

07/05/2008 at 02:19 Dot says:

@Indagator
It’s not as simple as that. Copy protection *IS* somewhat effective. Do you think any company would apply activation schemes like this if it had zero effect? No company would want to damage its own PR with stuff like that for nothing at all.

Bioshock’s developers admitted the scheme they used was flawed-and those flaws were unfair to the customers, but it helped to generate a whole load of sales regardless. Why? Every game sells the most in the first two weeks. If a game is leaked out and cracked before the first day, most people, who don’t give much thought to piracy will just go out to torrent sites and download it for free, early, without any hassles. It kills actual sales big time. With internet activation, when the game is leaked, it typically is missing a few key files so the pirates can’t produce a crack and make a “release” before the game is actually out, and by delaying that for a few days, up to a week and a half, as with Bioshock, it means that those people who wouldn’t mind pirating stuff but really want to play the game will have no choice but to buy it, which is good.
Furthermore, games are not video or music, those two industries work differently, not to mention that DRM put on movies and music is going to be exactly the same for every item so in that case it’s pointless. Here we’re talking absolutely harmless internet activation, polished so as to get rid of the flaws of Bioshock’s CP, like the activation limit and such, so that it shouldn’t even inconvenience anyone, and is the way of the future, replacing disc checks and coexisting with digital distribution in harmony.
So, in my opinion, this isn’t a big deal. If EA will botch this up and make it inconvenient for buyers, I’ll obviously be angry about it and become an opponent of their particular implementation of internet activation, but as of right now, it looks like that they are trying to make it as transparent and unobstructive as possible so I don’t have a case against them.

@Aaron
Just dismissing a game you want to play from the get-go because of a very light DRM scheme sounds like folly to me. I mean, I boycotted Starforce releases at the time, but compared to Starforce, this is absolutely nothing IMHO. I’ll still be getting both most likely, unless some other newspiece closer to release makes that copy protection look like a total trainwreck.

07/05/2008 at 02:28 Mario Granger says:

Wish I could say I was bothered by this. I’ll just do what I’ve been forced to do for years: buy the game, then head over to one of a thousand game cracking sites and download the cracked executable.

Developer gets their well earned money, I get a game that works properly without hassle.

Win-win.

I’m in suport of what Valve does with Steam: boxed copies ship incomplete, thus cutting down on zero-day piracy.

07/05/2008 at 02:41 Fisherman says:

I’d join in the bitching, but I’m still waiting to see how the last EA internet shitstorm over Rock Band costing a month’s rent in Europe turns out. At this rate I expect Sims 3 to come with an aborted fetus and spray anthrax from the screen.

07/05/2008 at 02:58 Tim says:

This is really silly. This is so absurd I’m assuming I’ve got this wrong. Does this mean that even if you don’t play the game for ten days, you’ll never be able to play it again?

Why don’t they just check each time you start the game like steam does?

07/05/2008 at 03:07 Shih Tzu says:

“Um, loads and loads of games use SecuRom, dude.”

This is true! And how many of them do I have installed? Looks like none.

07/05/2008 at 03:11 RichPowers says:

Both games just lost my sale (and no, I won’t pirate them).

Pirates will crack the game as usual and paying customers will suffer. Seems as if the wrong crowd is being punished here. One keycode, one activation. No need to check up on us every 10 days, Big Brother. I’m already PO’d at EA for adding in-game ad mumbo-jumbo to BF2142.

It’s funny how pirates offer superior products, ones without absurd DRM or nagware. Based on product quality alone — and not on ethics, legality, etc. — the pirated copy is your best bet. Not condoning here, but food for thought.

07/05/2008 at 03:30 Txiasaeia says:

Oh well. Spore looked pretty good, too. I guess I’ll play one of the thousands of other games that doesn’t have such restrictive DRM. Stalker: Clear Sky’s supposed to be coming out soon, right?

Another question: does anyone think that the $10 Spore editor to be released next month will include this DRM? Hmm.

07/05/2008 at 03:49 Indagator says:

@Dot

Do you think any company would apply activation schemes like this if it had zero effect? No company would want to damage its own PR with stuff like that for nothing at all.

Absolutely they would, because when faced with a potentially critical threat that none-the-less is impossible to empirically quantify, all organizations (publishers, school councils, governments) fall back on the basic response of we have to do something. And since there isn’t any way to actually tell how well a game might have sold if not for piracy/the economy/phase of the moon, the publishers have no way of knowing whether the all the money they poured into the DRM actually accomplished anything at all. They can simply decide whether the sales of the product were satisfactory or not. And because no one likes to think that they wasted money, these same groups are more likely to interpret unsatisfactory results to mean “We need more DRM!” than “Well, that DRM didn’t work, let’s scrap that idea and start over.”

Every game sells the most in the first two weeks.

Minor nitpick: That’s not strictly true: Homeworld immediately comes to mind in the category of “sleeper hit.” I think what you really meant to say was “Tremendously hyped AAA titles sell the most in the first two weeks,” which I’ll readily agree with. However, if the goal was just to stop piracy early on, why bother with the recurring 10-day activation? Surely just a single one time activation could stop that (it seems to work for Valve).

Furthermore, games are not video or music, those two industries work differently, not to mention that DRM put on movies and music is going to be exactly the same for every item so in that case it’s pointless.

Regardless of their individual differences, all types of DRM share a single point of failure. Once it’s cracked, the secret’s out. This is just as true for games as for movies and music.

Here we’re talking absolutely harmless internet activation, polished so as to get rid of the flaws of Bioshock’s CP, like the activation limit and such

Have you actually seen where the devs said that the activation limit is out? The post I referred to earlier claiming that there was a limit turned out to be quoting a secondary source, so I’m going to back off that claim until I have corroboration one way or another. Onto the other two points you made:
Re: harmless internet activation – This would have made it impossible for me to play two years ago, when I didn’t have internet at home. It would have made it impossible for me to play during college vacations when I was with family members who didn’t have Internet or didn’t have a wireless router. A one-time activation is relatively easy to work around those issues, it’s the continual bit that’s the deal breaker.
Re: polished to get rid of flaws – Do you honestly believe, in the era when new releases are more like expanded beta tests than finished products, that the component of the system that designed to inhibit the normal functions of a computer is going to be flawless? That it won’t cause problems? Hopefully you said yes, because if so, could I interest you in a couple of investment opportunities with my Nigerian friends? :)
It’s too bad, really, because EA just lost two (possibly three) sales with this nonsense. I was on the fence regarding Mass Effect, but I was quite excited about Spore. I’ve also been planning on picking up Bioshock (which I don’t have because it came out before I had my latest machine built), which I may still get, but over Steam. In fact, I might not purchase another EA game at retail ever again. I’ll either get it via DD or go without.
Edit – sorry for all the verbiage, I’ll be more succinct in the future.

07/05/2008 at 04:13 Durandal says:

“I don’t really mind this if it helps fend off piracy. Bioshock’s DRM did ”

I know twelve people at my work with hacked copies of Bioshock. Twelve. Clearly, it didn’t help shit.

Keep in mind that not only will this not help piracy, it’ll just generate negative press and misgiving against the creators of the game. It’s lose-lose for them.

07/05/2008 at 04:35 Jonathan says:

Goddamn it RPS! Haven’t you learnt not to mention anything to do with piracy.

Really I don’t care about DRM because I only care about the game. If I have to do a special jig to play it, or heaven forbid install a 2mb verification program, I really don’t care usually if you hold off a couple of months the problems with verification have been sorted and you save money. I mean I know it can be annoying connecting to the internet but come on! There’s a heck of a lot worse things in the world and in space(!) and in time.

07/05/2008 at 04:47 Dot says:

The system DID work with Bioshock, and it worked even better than expected, why do you think they started using it? And it’s not disc based either.
God, all this comes down to a knee-jerk reaction to a very simplistic copy protection measure that wouldn’t affect anyone posting about it right now, except for the people who would actually pirate those games. Well, if it’s not botched up or anything though, but let’s just hope for now and decide later when it’s all clear.

07/05/2008 at 05:14 Kuma says:

This would be fine with me if it wasn’t SecuROM. They’ve botched other roll-outs, and this seems like, essentially, a perpetual rollout for them. There will be server issues, there will be down periods, there will be chaos, and there will be shitty service, because SecuROM really doesn’t give a crap about you, the end-user.

07/05/2008 at 05:34 shiznit says:

This game isn’t that great anyway.

07/05/2008 at 05:53 RichPowers says:

“The problem with PC game sales isn’t piracy. It’s a lack of appropriate games for the market, followed by the poor quality of games ported from consoles.”

Elle: Bingo! You articulated very concisely my thoughts on the state of retail PC gaming (to distinguish from indie games, free games, etc.). Treating the PC as a backwater recepticle for half-arsed console ports is a doomed strategy. Dealing with the PC’s hassles — and there are many — isn’t worth it if I can get the same games on Xbox or Wii.

But I’ll gladly deal with gfx card drivers, installing a god-awful MS operating system, and other irritations for games like Sins of a Solar Empire, Civilization, StarCraft, etc. In other words, GAMES MADE FOR THE PC, that take advantage of the PC’s strengths as a platform.

07/05/2008 at 06:45 Txiasaeia says:

@Frank:

Clear Sky will be digitally distributed exclusively through Steam – but they’re still putting out a boxed copy. (And no, I don’t subscribe to Steam, either.)

07/05/2008 at 06:47 Roman Levin says:

What sucks is that if the games sell well (and at least Spore will), people on the business side of gaming will perceive this as DRM vanquishing piracy, and we’ll see more of this kind of bullshit.

07/05/2008 at 07:15 c-Row says:

No, shitty Publisher/Developers who hide under the “piracy is killing PC gaming” banner are ruining PC gaming.

Of course. It wasn’t the pirating/warez scene that ruined Amiga gaming and eventually killed it as a gaming platform. Yeah, right…

07/05/2008 at 07:53 FuKuy says:

If you have an Internet Connection this protection it’s not annoying….. It’s like login in WoW every time you use it.

You’ll play Mass Effect and you won’t be aware of the periodically activation.

I hope this will work and piracy will be stopped.

I support EA and BioWare. And I’ll buy the game. Mass Effect and of course Spore.

07/05/2008 at 08:01 Valentin Galea says:

Silly producers, it’s like they forgot all the programming they did:)

Don’t they know those DRM checks all come eventually to an IF in the code that can be easily patched?

07/05/2008 at 08:14 Andy says:

Offline mode in Steam doesn’t work occasionally through malice, it’s just a bit buggy. I tried the experiment myself, disabled my wireless internet connection, restarted Steam, went into offline mode, launched HL2. No problems at all. Your mileage may vary, but it’s supposed to work.

Anyways, the problem with all DRM schemes is that on an open system like Windows, there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop people cracking your system once it’s in their hands. The best you can do is make it hard for them, and risk the pirates introducing bugs into the game.

You hear some real horror stories out there of games getting a bad reputation for being buggy because the pirates broke something while they were hacking out the copy protection.

You can only put a gate-keeper into a system you control, or where the owner has a good reason not to break it, like multiplayer servers, the Spore custom content distributors, the WoW servers, Steam only delivering you the exe on release, etc.

The way to discourage piracy is to use these kind of features to improve the experience, e.g. Steam making it easy to login and download your game at any computer, or having a friends list and achievements and the like, stuff it’s going to be a lot harder for the pirates to duplicate.

This kind of restrictive DRM scheme just screws the people who actually pay.

07/05/2008 at 08:21 po says:

I have no problem with this, and think it’s a good way to combat piracy without causing buyers too much hassle, provided:

* I can install it on as many computers that I own as I want, within reason (say 3 at once).

* I can play LAN games with 3 computers per copy (any more and internet cafe’s would be using 1 copy for all their comps). Small LAN parties should get by on this number, as there should be enough seperate copies for everyone to play.

* I don’t get banned when I accidentally put 2 of my computers online at once. Instead I get told that a system is already using that serial (had problems working out which serials I was using for my installed copies of BF2, as I’ve 2 copies on 3 computers, and there’s no way to work out what serial is on which computer since later patches). If one serial gets seen too often, then it should get banned, with the original owner having the option of buying a new serial (the cost being to dissuade giving away the serial, and to make people look after it better).

* there is no limit to the number of times I can install it

* After the game’s sales drop sufficiently, and the manufacturer is no longer willing to support it, they release a patch to disable all DRM (BF2 has had it’s account servers screwing up for over a week. Is this the end of the game’s support, and subsequent death from DRM?)

These games /will/ be pirated anyway, as there is no such thing as closed source to someone who can program assembly language and run a debugger. Both things being rather easy to do on a PC.

07/05/2008 at 08:38 Homunculus says:

I’m currently playing through a heavily modded Baldur’s Gate, cleverly brought into the game engine of its sequel. The interaction of all of the party members has been brought up to the level of Baldur’s Gate 2 as well, with a quality of writing that easily rivals and oft surpasses Bioware’s original. As they entertainingly bicker, forcibly interject and contradict me the length and breadth of the Sword Coast, I’m rather thankful that playing this hasn’t required anything more onerous than installing the mods and game, which is coming up to a decade old. After such a long period of time, and had such a thing been implemented back then, I’d seriously doubt there’d be any effort to maintain an authentication server for it, as the recent farrago regarding Microsoft’s MSN music amply demonstrates. Heaven forfend that I’d ever have wanted to play it on a laptop without internet access.

This reminds me. I’ve yet to pick up Twilight of the Arnor.

07/05/2008 at 08:42 Feet says:

Great pun.

I don’t see how this is all that different from Steam really, though I suppose you can use Steam in Offline Mode once you’ve unlocked your games…

I guess they are applying MMO DRM logic to non-MMOs. Which with Spore they might get away with, since it’s heavy on the user-created content and community sharing stuff you know? There is a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER aspect to the game, kinda. Not being online with Spore will gimp the game to an extent I’m guessing. Mass Effect however has nothing like that, it has no MASSIVELY part to it at all.

I’ll probably still buy Spore but,
*waves a tiny “Go Stardock!” flag*

07/05/2008 at 09:00 Pidesco says:

Big Brother is watching you.

07/05/2008 at 09:31 Butler` says:

To me this is an unwelcome and wholly unnecessary controversy around a game (or publisher) that really can’t justify its insecurities.

07/05/2008 at 09:43 Him says:

DRM, Honesty or Shoddy Console ports. Choose one.
It seems people are unable to choose the middle one.

And yet, Stardock are still in business, still profitable, and still giving the consumer the games we hunger for.
A strong DRM scheme like this is of no bother to pirates. It’ll no doubt put the smack down on schoolyard swapping of games, but I can’t help but feel that if, perhaps, those titles offered something *more* to the consumer with the legitimate CD key it would help push the sales figures upwards.

07/05/2008 at 09:44 Homunculus says:

“DRM, Honesty or Shoddy Console ports. Choose one.
It seems people are unable to choose the middle one.”

Stardock, and the success of Sins of a Solar Empire, have already amply demonstrated that option two of the presented three choice false dilemma is more than viable.

I’ll rescind the quoted statement anyway, as a simple, quick review of the recent historical pattern of behaviour from Electronic Arts seems to contradict it so. Exhibit A, Rock Band’s pricing in Europe, which is eyewatering when compared to its U.S. counterpart. Exhibit B, a commentary on the decision to charge for cheat codes. Their download service, EA link, necessitates paying more for redownloading a title once a period of time after its original point of purchase has elapsed, which compares unfavourably with Steam. Some executives within their echelons are making these consumer unfriendly decisions which, taken as a whole, could be perceived as symptomatic of an inculcated corporate culture of cynicism towards their customers.

Can I get some investigative journalism up ins?

07/05/2008 at 09:46 SwiftRanger says:

“One other thing that I saw mentioned on the quartertothree forums is that the DRM will limit you to three installs of the game. After that, you will apparently have to call up to get your account revalidated or some other nonsense. Hope you don’t like playing games more than once!”

As mentioned in the Bioware-thread, you can install Mass Effect on three different PC’s and it will all be playable. You can reinstall on those machines as much as you like. If you want to install on a fourth machine though, that’s when things get tricky. In other words: every of those three activation processes are tied to a single machine each.

Anyway, for a singleplayer game, this all sounds a bit daft. We’ll see how the servers will handle it, and how user-friendly it’ll be.

07/05/2008 at 09:52 Saskwach says:

Well I don’t know what everyone else thinks, but Spore was a game I was going to get, and now…it’s not.

07/05/2008 at 09:58 cliffski says:

“Well I don’t know what everyone else thinks, but Spore was a game I was going to get, and now…it’s not.”

Thats fine. But in case anyone did, do not for one picosecond think that this justifies you pirating it. People are free to get upset about having to send 16 bytes of data every 10 days to play a big budget, anticipated game for the PC, but if you don’t like the sale terms, then you go without the game. Thats the deal. If you pirate the game, you just made EAs point for them, and lose all moral high ground.

07/05/2008 at 09:59 James T says:

Steam makes me log on every time I want to play my games. Is that so much worse?

Yeah, I dunno how everyone manages to play stuff in Steam’s ‘offline mode’, ‘cos Christ knows it’s never worked for me.

edit: Oh, now I bleedin’ get it, you have to be online first. How perverse. Explains why it never worked in a pinch, at least.

07/05/2008 at 10:21 Gnarl says:

Surely this is more of a missed oppurtunity? Two high profile, probably high selling games released not eons apart on the PC by the same publisher. A chance to have one with large amounts of DRM, and one without, and try and clear up the question of whether it does actually make a difference. Or if the Stardock method really works.

In essence, I can’t remember the last time honesty was given as an option to choose. It might work, who knows?

07/05/2008 at 10:23 Colthor says:

I liked the pun too.

Oh, RE: Steam’s offline mode:
I just tested it; turn off wireless, fire up Steam. “Couldn’t connect. Try again? Start in Offline mode?”
Blimey, it works – I thought you had to set it in advance from being online too. I’m happier with it now.

07/05/2008 at 10:30 Him says:

Actually, I think the root of my issue with this particular DRM scheme is a simple one. I’m not paying for a product to play it on the publishers terms. I’m paying to play it on my terms.
Why should I pay for a product where the when, how, and how often are dictated to me by the producer? Can you name another industry where the person who purchases a product can be treated so badly? Can you go one better than that and name another industry that experienced unending growth in spite of treating its customers with such contempt?
You can cite the argument that “These schemes only exist because people pirate the content.” But if you do that, you’ll need to explain to me why a paying customer should have to put up with such a situation.

07/05/2008 at 10:42 Rob says:

I have to confess I find it very difficult to get riled up about this. As long as the game works; in practical terms I never don’t have an internet connection. I guess people up thread have had enormously frustrating experiences with Steam but I never have, and consistent connectivity is (I imagine) a large part of the reason for that.

In the end it all comes down to how obtrusively it’s done. I’ll check for the brouhaha immediately post-launch and if it’s not too bad at that point I’ll purchase.

@Kanakotka

What is the workaround of this, and the best way to boycott it?
Workaround : Keygenerator. They can’t block every single of the keygenerator’s keys, since some of them will be completely legitimate keys, owned by others.
Best way to boycott, from the pirate perspective : Get as many legitimate keys under the ban -> paying customers will start to complain -> this kind of bullshit will never happen again.

Both of these are such jerkish ideas it makes me head spin. Sure, complain to EA, but deliberately go out of your way to spoil the experience of a legitimate consumer? That’s some entitlement you’re feeling right there.

07/05/2008 at 10:49 jamie says:

it’s silly because the pirates will bypass all this rubbish and paying customers will be the only ones to suffer it

07/05/2008 at 11:00 Colthor says:

…In three years EA turn the servers off and you have to buy Spore 2010 if you want to keep playing.

…Somehow your CD key gets added to the “pirate scum” list and you can’t play any more.

…The uninstall-to-get-one-of-your-three-installs-back works almost as well as BioShock (did they ever fix it?), and after a couple of upgrades and a dead mainboard you can’t play any more.

On the other hand, the advantages to “the consumer” are endless, right?

07/05/2008 at 11:02 Rob says:

@Colthor
You’re right, groundless speculation is a good basis for an argument.

07/05/2008 at 11:07 Colthor says:

@Rob:
Well, Microsoft turned their music DRM servers off recently, and EA have been berated for turning multiplayer servers off before; the entire point of the regular re-check is to make sure your CD key is still valid and not on the “pirate scum” list; it has a three-install limit, and BioShock used a similar version of SecuROM in which the install credits were never returned (and, as I said, was it ever fixed?).

So, groundless then?

07/05/2008 at 11:11 Rob says:

@Colthor
I’d say your arguments are tangential, as you say it’s Microsoft -> Music, not EA -> Games; turning off multiplayer servers isn’t the same as turning of a key authentication system (which can be patch-fixed); and the only way the pirate scum list is going to be a problem is if the pirates end up trying the implausibly long winded keygen attempt they did with Bioshock (it turned out to be easier just to crack the .exe after all).

AFAIK, Bioshock is not currently a significant problem for a significant number of people, and all games (especially for PC) are a small problem to a small number of people.

07/05/2008 at 11:13 Feet says:

If EA were to implement this DRM on all their releases then they will never turn the authentication servers off. They would be tied inextricably to their business. No servers, no sales.

However, if they did turn them off for older games, then I’m sure they would release a patch that allows the game to operate in an offline mode. Once the game has been out for 6 months and it’s no longer the flavour of the… 6 months, they probably care alot less about piracy as the large amount of sales for that game will already have been had. I reckon an offline patch should be out for ME within 6 months and for Spore within 12.

This is ignoring the fact that pirates WILL crack the game eventually. I bet they can’t wait for the challenge. -_-

07/05/2008 at 11:40 rocketeer says:

Steam?. Since when do you need the DVD in to play games in Steam, fluffy?.

BTW, you should NEVER need the DVD in the drive to play the game you bought. It’s another of those stupid schemes that publishers don’t seem to realize that doesn’t work, and only end up bothering buyers.

07/05/2008 at 11:57 Kanakotka says:

@ Rob

Jerkish? Sure. But what are EA being to us about this? Nice and understanding customer’s wishes? Righhhht.

And since most of you ignored Jim here, let me answer.
The problem is that the game stops working after those 10 days. Can you name another product that does that? Just spontaneously stops working if you don’t call a random phone number and submit information? Imagine your microwave or oven doing that. What if you lose your internet for 10 days or more? What then?
Besides, it is generally just too invasive, sure, starforce was more invasive, and shit hit the fan about that one hard. But we all thought a lesson was learned. But guess there wasn’t anything to learn of it. And securom is a touchy subject in any case, it’s getting closer to starforce’s crappyness. It already has a malicious rootkit, if that isn’t enough…

Yeah, it does. I found it by accident no less. If you have any securom protected games that have securom… 7.x or higher (i think) it will have it’s rootkit visible in a rootkit revealer. And just like Starforce, it won’t go away with the game being uninstalled. And the game won’t work without the rootkit being there.

07/05/2008 at 12:05 fluffy bunny says:

“Steam?. Since when do you need the DVD in to play games in Steam, fluffy?.”

You don’t. But you need Steam to play Steam-games. You need a third-party application that has nothing to do with the game you’re buying, and you need to launch it every time you want to play this game.

See, not everyone has Steam installed all the time. Not everyone buy stuff using Steam. Most people have it installed because they have to, due to some game or other. And regardless of how much you like Steam as a digital distribution system, it’s a big, clunky program that most users shouldn’t have to install on their computers.

On the other hand, this Securom-system will simply perform background checks that will, unless there’s a problem, be totally invisible for the user.

“BTW, you should NEVER need the DVD in the drive to play the game you bought.”

No, but still, that’s the way it is. However, with this system, we might finally get rid of disc-based DRM.

07/05/2008 at 12:16 fluffy bunny says:

I dislike DRM as much as anyone else, but unfortunately it’s here to stay (just like piracy). So I’m just hoping for the most hassle-free DRM systems possible, and this does actually seem more hassle-free than most existing systems (esp. because of that no-cd thing). So I welcome it, sort of.

07/05/2008 at 12:37 Bozzley says:

I just hope the boxed copies of Spore point out in a very obvious manner that, if you don’t have an internet connection going into your PC, then you’re pretty much fucked.

If it’s not obvious that the DRM needs an internet connection to validate your copy, then EA’s brand awareness with not-net-connected PC-game-buying people will surely suffer. Brand awareness is something I’m sure EA care about.

Also, will retailers be told that the game needs a net connection? I remember being asked if I had a net connection whenever I’ve bought a MMO before, wonder if the same thing will happen with Spore.

07/05/2008 at 12:44 Ruatha says:

It would seem that everyone here is rather devided. Mostly between not caring and abhoring the idea, and of course. Some saying they will just pirate it.

To be honest we don’t even know much about the DRM in Spore and Mass Effect bar this one post, this could all change tomorrow for all you know. Insted of wailing and ranting about piracey people should probably wait and see what happens in the long run.

Alot of the conversation seems to be directed at Steam VS EA’s DRM, and I think alot of people are missing the point with these two diffrent systems, and there are alot of differances. Differances that make Steam look good, and EA’s style of DRM look god awful, it’s easy to see why people are geting upset at it. So we might as well dig out the differances into plain format.

EA DRM on one hand.
Checks to make sure you have the right serial every 10 days.
Doesn’t require the CD after install
Comes with SecuROM

Steam on the other hand.
Stores your serial key insted of checking constently
Has an intergrated friends network, acheivements, gameplay statistics, friend clubs, profiles.. Etc etc.
Allows you to play your game anywhere, anytime in offline mode.
Has a working auto patching system, and keeps a log all updates for user ease.
Doesn’t require the CD either.

So why are people furious about EA and not Steam? What could this reason? It’s simple. EA is offering a shoddy, down trodden and unpredictable (At times) service that comes with a program that -has- proven problems in the past. As of yet there is no word that SecuROM has improved at all. It could cause (And probably will) Cause a ton of hassle. That you can’t do crap about. Look at what EA is doing, they check your serial insted of storing it. If someone uses a keygen and just happens to land on your serial key, you are f**ked.

Steam however keeps your serial in your account with your games, your statistics, with your choice on playing it in offline and online mode. Your choice of how you want the program to react. Steam gives you the freedom to do whatever you want. Yes, you have to log in once so offline mode will work, but hey. You have to put a serial in every time you install a game. So there’s no real differance here.
Your serial is totally safe from any outside intervention, and hey. Not only that, but you get a fully working system for keeping track of all your budies, profiles and clubs so you can keep in touch. A fully intergrated messaging system that you can use -while- playing the game, you get detailed stats on everything you do. Hell, there’s even stats on what other people do, and maps that show where people are killed the most in TF2, achievements. a news system, auto updating. It even helps indi producers sell their product in a safe enviroment to the masses where they would never get it out otherwise. Look at all this stuff

I think the real point of the problem here is “Why should I pay just to get slapped in the facem with a horrible, faulty system when there are better alternatives” Checking up every ten days is going to hinder people. Sure, it probably wont be us, but there are people this will hurt. Big brother will be looking down your shoulder once every few weeks, and if you arn’t there playing the game. You’re going to have to go out of your way to fix the problem.

I shouldn’t have to worry about my game not working because I haven’t rushed out to give Big Brother the serial key again, I shouldn’t have to put up with a program I don’t want on my computer. I shouldn’t have to put up with subpar serial key protection when there are many proven, and still working methods out there. Sure, it’s not going to kill me to make sure my key is updated every 10 days, but it’s annoying, it’s counter productive. It’s taking away my freedom. It’s removing my choice. This is the real problem, this is why use Steam, even if it is a style of DRM in it’s own way.

Standing back and looking at the comments here, people say it’s no diffrent then having the CD in the drive. But the CD isn’t going to start hissing and refuse to let you play the game if you don’t give it the key when it commands.

This whole topic will probably blow over, people will get the game. It will be forgotten about. But I know I wont be buying the game. Not because “Waah. DRM SUCKS I hateZOR EA” But because I don’t want to have to worry about a possibly faulty system that we -know- has f**ked up before. I don’t want to have SecuROM forced onto my computer, and I don’t have to mess around with showing off my serial if I don’t want too.

In the end. Pirates will torrent, crack and play the game. The casual crowd will probably never notice the differance, die hards wont, or will buy it and crack it, and it will all be for nothing but to annoy us users who wish to buy a (hopefully) good product. But hey, maybe EA will change its mind ,maybe.

And on a side note, piracy isn’t killing PC gaming, Piracy, no doubt. Is a thorn in its side. But have you all forgotten the pirating scene on the console front? PS2, XBOX, PSP, DS, Wii, Gamecube, 360 and (Possibly. I haven’t actually looked at hacking sonys new wonder system) PS3 all have methods of pirating games and everyone here has turned a blind eye. I know this is a PC gaming blog, so it should be about PC. But can no one bring up the topic when it is just as rampart on the consoles as on the PC? And yet no one seems to care, not the PC people, not EA, just about everyone. The only thing i’ve heard recently is that the Wii had an update to fix it, but give it a month at most and people will be playing modded Wiis again.

To end it.. Even with my bit of ranting, we still don’t know alot about this. Lets just sit back and wait alittle and see what happens.

07/05/2008 at 13:01 Hobbes says:

“(in case the CD Key has become public/warez’d and gets banned). ”

So, does this mean that if the CD key you have, from your purchased boxed copy, happens to be the one that ends up in the hacked versions that will inevitably appear, you copy stops working next time your system checks in with master?

That, surely, can’t be right. Odds of it might be low-ish, but I imagine its not impossible.

Anyway, bring back decoder wheels I say, or better yet, I always liked Starglider 2′s novella approach. Sure, the cracking process involved half an hour with a photocopier, but at least you got a fairly decent read out of it.

07/05/2008 at 13:15 MeestaNob! says:

Hobbes, thats EXACTLY what will happen.

At least BioShock (BS, heh) only had to do it upon install, so it least you got fucked before you got half way through the game.

Spore: Internet based DRM almost understandable due to overwhelming online nature of the game.
Mass Effect: Long single ‘Action RPG’ that could break at any time through absolutely no fault of the user.

Burn in hell EA.

07/05/2008 at 13:16 The Second Hand Market for PC Games says:

Hello! I’d just like to… Garrgh. (Dies.)

07/05/2008 at 13:40 Muzman says:

There is something delicious about Spore, a game made in large part through programming techniques and people taken from or inspired by the demoscene (ie a decades old hothouse of artistically competitive computer piracy and its software graffitti) having the meanest third party protection system yet. So much so the special edition comes with a life size cardboard Secret Serviceman who glares at you while you play. I bet there’s guys who made the game who could have come up with a better system.
I wouldn’t be against it if it weren’t so terribly unimaginative, and exponentially more involved than the last version. We know it’s not going to work, that’s the thing. The servers a going to go down, people are going to get locked out, the regions are going to screw up. If they were doing the Bioshock style one again (but change it a bit so that it’s not already been broken, obviously) but say this time have enough servers and so on that it’s smooth; good idea, that might seem like you’ve learned a thing or two. These guys are raking leaves in high wind and they bring a leafblower to the table. When it doesn’t work they just stick a bigger, louder engine on it and few more fans until it’s a preposterous Wallace&Gromit-esque monstrosity that can be seen from space.

07/05/2008 at 14:11 Hypocee says:

I have a wish. And the nice thing is, for once it’s coming true!

I wish all these publishers (and small devs, hi cliffski) who are so terrified of Little Jimmy playing without paying would just get out. Seriously! I just bought a second 360 for my little brother across the country; with some savvy shopping, both of my NTSC 360 Premiums cost me under USD160 door-to-door. That’s less than an FPS video card, even before you take our currency’s collapse into account. You could even pay the import duty like a good boy and still come out with a deal. It hooks right up to your monitor; get a KVM switch if you must, or rock two monitors.

Then all these publishers get to play ‘put up or shut up’. Just get on your knees in front (ahem, I said on your knees, that’s better) of some product manager for Microsoft or Sony – or Nintendo, if you don’t need a specular bumpmapped firearm – and you just beg them to bestow upon you the honour of gracing your hypothetical videogame with a license on their box. What! Groveling doesn’t hurt. Once you develop it, submit release candidates for a couple years while you learn to produce software without crippling bugs, wait for the approval process and centralised duplication, and heave your sigh of relief as nobody plays your game without paying you for it. Except everyone who has ever set foot in a media retailer. The rest of us can play Sins and Noitsu and EVE and M&B and Dwarf Fortress and Orange Box… and whatever little wonder gets created this week.

And everyone can be happy (except cliffski, because |_|rmum5atiger6969 doesn’t buy Political Simulations and the product managers know it), and nobody will ever try to secretly break my Von Neumann machine’s disc drive.

Fl0w did it. Everyday Shooter did it. They picked the wrong horse, but they did it. N did it, and I cheerfully bought their console version. I suspect Braid will be mysteriously delayed on PC, and I’ll wind up playing it on the 360. I’ve already bought World of Goo, but I might well buy it again just to have it on the telly. I don’t see the problem; they think they can get more money this way, and more power to ‘em. EA already releases its moneymakers as halfhearted, broken ports. Really, why bother?

Big or small, if you don’t like us – if you can’t wrap your head around the idea that good titles will sell without breaking our machines, just as thousands of other titles have sold without breaking our machines – then get out, and leave this box to people who know what they’re doing. I do not think I will starve.

07/05/2008 at 14:14 eyemessiah says:

I would just like to add that if it turns out to be more than a glorified sand box (still a BIG if at this stage, for me) I will just buy it and crack it. No big deal.

The problem is that if it turns out to be a B\B title rather that an A, I will just skip it. The reason being that cracking is all well and good until the patch to fix that game-breaking bug or add that essential feature comes along and then you have to re-crack – potentially opening up a whole can of worms trying to get the game you paid for to work again!

Why crack it at all? Sometimes I move house. Sometimes I change internet provider. Sometimes my ISP goes weird. Sometimes my router becomes unhappy. Sometimes shit happens, and I don’t expect games that I have paid for to ‘turn-off’ in this or in fact any eventuality.

So basically, as others have said, this will only have a small negative affect on how I score this game, but unless the game is supernaturally brilliant it could potentially be the straw that convinces me not to bother picking it up at all. Maybe this will have no effect on the industry (I never bought a single Sims game, but that did well enough!) but there you go.

07/05/2008 at 14:21 Michael says:

I will not buy either of these games.

In fact I spit on both of them, as well as their publisher. I would like to spit in the faces of knaves directly responsible, but alas I can’t do that.

My shit-list has now been topped.

07/05/2008 at 14:35 AbyssUK says:

Spore must be like the most obvious game ever to have micropayments.. so why it isn’t free in the first place is beyond me. I’ll wait am sure it’ll become free at some point after its 5th-6th upgrade

Mass Effect is, well lets face it its a console RPG who actually wants to play that on a PC ? Want to play it buy an xbox its cheaper than buying a graphics card upgrade.

SecuROM is piss poor and the internet knows it, don’t worry about it it’ll fail again and everybody will laugh at it. I forsee 2 weeks after release a patch is released to ease/remove the copy protection.

Mainstream PC Gaming is dead anyway, and good riddance I say. Indie gaming for the win, bring back shareware. Deathworm beats Spore or Mass Effect hands down.

07/05/2008 at 14:40 Lukasz says:

how stupid those people are? I bet that it will take no more than 7 days for perfectly working Mass Effect to be available for download.
with spore it is a bit different cause it will base a lot of gameplay on connecting to internet.

DRM prevents friendly neighborhood piracy when friends share their games. which is minimal.

07/05/2008 at 14:53 spd from Russia says:

Turin: just get a job and stop beaing a petty thief just cause you have no money!

07/05/2008 at 14:59 Senethro says:

Jesus christ, some people are just embarrassing themselves horribly with their words here. Have a sense of perspective guys.

And given all the hand waving and conspiracy theories over “WHY ARE THEY DOING THIS?”, I suggest you go find out how long it took them to crack Bioshock. Theres a simple answer to everything.

Its not Starforce.

07/05/2008 at 15:42 J. Prevost says:

So—this site does retrogaming every once in a while, or so I hear.

What happens when ten years down the road somebody decides they want to install Spore? What do you think the chances are of the license servers still being up?

Here’s a hint: The only game company I know of that is actively supporting (i.e. still releasing patches for) a non-MMO game over ten years old is Blizzard. Admittedly, there are a lot more that maintain web pages with static downloads for patches—but I’d be very surprised to see EA or SecuROM care enough to keep a license server running that long. That’s a different sort of proposition from just putting up a download.

07/05/2008 at 15:57 Turin Turambar says:

@Okami: Piracy is irrelevant here. I will always buy games when they cost 40$ or less, it’s my self imposed top price for a game. I can wait perfectly some months and buy a game for half the price, it’s not my fault the game’s market is so devaluable.
Sometimes i buy a game for that price without waiting: i bought ET:QW, The Witcher and Stalker at full price, because the full price was less than 40$. My last bought game is Mount & Blade, 30$.

@spd from Russia: I already have a work, i am a software developer.

And at least i buy games!. Most people i know only pirate them, it’s over their heads the mere thought of buying something you can get for free!.

07/05/2008 at 16:15 cliffski says:

“I will always buy games when they cost 40$ or less, it’s my self imposed top price for a game”

My self-imposed top price for a ferrari is £10k, but then I don’t have an expectatiion to be able to drive a brand new one regardless of my inability to pay…

07/05/2008 at 16:29 cliffski says:

cite what? go to a bit-torrent website and show me how many entries in the top 10 are linux distros. You really pretending that PC piracy isn’t out of control.
I don’t pirate games either, but we are very much in the minority sadly.

07/05/2008 at 16:46 Colthor says:

According to TPB’s “Top 100″ list (whatever it measures), the top 86 torrents (and about 95 out of the top 100) are TV programmes and films.

87 is CoD4, 91 is Nero and 98 is Vista Ultimate. They’re the only software in the list.

Clearly the true enemy of copyright holders are people who watch films and TV; they should go after them and leave us poor gamers alone -_-

07/05/2008 at 17:08 fluffy bunny says:

“2. Judge if it is good or not. Yes, i need to pirate (or hire) the game, a review won’t cut it, nor opinions in a forum, nor even a demo. Could you judge the quality of a novel reading only the first chapter?”

So, out of curiosity, how do you decide if a novel is worth buying? Do you carry a folding chair with you to read it in the store before deciding if you want to buy it? Or do you just put it under your coat and steal it, and then pop back in with the money if you like it?

Great example, Turin.

07/05/2008 at 17:16 Theory says:

I can’t help but think of how EA like to switch off the auth servers for their multiplayer console games after they’re a few iterations down the line.

Aside from that though, this is only going to be an issue if you’re offline for long periods of time. And even given that they’re single-player games, how many people with the hardware to run them are?

It’s not like they’re publicly-funded…

Edit: thinking a little harder, my internet connection craps out once an hour and starts delivering an HTML login page instead of whatever the application is actually expecting. I hope Securom’s program can handle that properly.

07/05/2008 at 17:33 Bisor says:

Cliffski, you said the “majority” of PC gamers pirate games. I highly doubt that. If you really stand behind your argument, you would cite something for all of us to see. I mean really, you must have some reputable source for this odd discrepancy or you would not being arguing such a statement, right?

Please don’t make ridiculous claims with no backing whatsoever besides your emotional appeals to gut-feeling and/or your oppressed minority bullcrap. Correlation doesn’t imply causation, as your “Oh look! The top 10 torrent distros are all PC!” argument has shown us. Show us some numbers that the extent of piracy is as widespread among the PC gaming population as you say it is. How do you account for all those who clearly state they don’t pirate/have EVER pirated but disagree wholeheartedly with your argument? Without pigeon-holing me/us as pirates too…You could’ve just admitted piracy is a problem instead of taking it one sensational step further and saying most of us are guilty of it. You realize the implications of it (for the PC gaming industry) if that were actually true, right?

I’ll just assume that was an offhand comment not meant to be taken literally(?).

07/05/2008 at 17:35 CrashT says:

I’m enjoying the irony of people saying “I won’t be buying Mass Effect now”, every single person who says that is proof that PC game sales are lost due to piracy.

If there was no piracy there’d be no need for DRM and therefore no need to boycott a title because of it.

If piracy doesn’t kill off PC Gaming then DRM will.

07/05/2008 at 18:05 Alarik says:

Hmm, as long as Securom doesn’t mess with PC’s low level system (drivers, ring 0 stuff etc.), it doesn’t bother me.

In fact, I would certainly prefer this type of verification to that stupid “need DVD in drive to be able to run the game” crap – main reason I haven’t played Gothic 2 yet (I’ve bought it 2 years ago and it gathers dust since I wasn’t able to find the crack for this obscure European release).

I have a suggestion – for those folks afraid of unrealiable internet connection, there could be this feature like “verify now” and you are safe for next 10 days (you could basiclaly verify the game every day you would play and the next “required” check would be postponed each time).

07/05/2008 at 18:19 Robin says:

@Optimaximal: When I said “everyone”, I meant, every publisher of PC software of any kind from the most trivial of casual games up to industrial strength apps, but you make a good point regarding apps in a business environment being audited.

@Evan: 1. The overhead of competently written service-based DRM schemes on modern PCs is literally inperceptibly tiny. 2. Only the implementation that we’re discussing re: Spore and Mass Effect needs to verify to keep the product alive. It’s inaccurate to tar all games that use SecuROM technology with the same brush. Hoever, I agree that it should be easier to expunge any DRM software when the applications that need it are uninstalled.

Regarding SecuROM (or other copy protection licensors): I don’t think that they should be apportioned all the blame if publishers decide to put their tools to inappropriate uses. Unless they were only offering an evil option, like Starforce were.

One last thing – the Steam client. I’d not really thought about it, but it’s actually really bizarre, considering how successful the system has been and how many online-distributed games depend on it, that after five years the client is still this bloated, IE-using, unintuitive, dog-slow pile of crap. I’m 100% certain that I’d buy more games through Steam if I didn’t have to wait around for the client to load and do mysterious things before I can interact with it in any way.

07/05/2008 at 19:05 Shih Tzu says:

Robin:

Right, so you’ve boycotted hundreds of games released over the last decade for no discernable reason? Erm, well done.

More like I haven’t been into PC games much for the past five years, except for indie titles. BioShock got me sort of interested again, but the idea of DRM software that runs constantly and can’t be uninstalled is enough to tip me back into “Meh, I’ll pass” territory. If they release a version eventually without SecuROM, I’ll probably be inclined to take another look. I’m patient.

07/05/2008 at 19:16 Rob says:

@Shih Tzu

If they release a version eventually without SecuROM, I’ll probably be inclined to take another look. I’m patient.

I’m in the same boat on this one, although I’m also waiting for the European price point on Steam to achieve parity with the US.

07/05/2008 at 19:37 Duoae says:

I can’t stand for this type of DRM. Two thoughts:

1) As increasingly internet heavy applications crowd onto our PCs (due to DRM requirements) we not only have problems with compatibility of DRM but also the amount of traffic that’s passing across our connections. With ISPs starting to move towards charging for bytes uploaded and downloaded (or in otherwords lower usage caps becoming common) – because their systems can’t handle what they advertise – these measures are effectively making the consumer PAY for this through the use of their connection. Sure, only a couple of bytes per activation * however million people who bought the game * how many games there are on the service * how many services are on the PC * etc…

2) If they’re making us rent our games (which is what is happening) then we should pay rental prices. Two months of an online MMOG costs me around £20. If i complete ME in two months or Spore in two months then i’ve already paid £30 for a game that i have no control over.

Internet connections are not reliable and no game or physical media should be reliant on a service that is unreliable. Needless to say, i won’t be buying either of these games.

07/05/2008 at 19:49 Meat Circus says:

It’s a great pity I shall have to pirate Mass Effect and Spore.

I was itching to hand over money for them.

But I won’t pay for crippleware, when warez is full version.

07/05/2008 at 20:05 Gap Gen says:

It’s probably an obvious point, but in this case the pirated version will be a superior product to the retail version, because the pirated version won’t contain the DRM. And they’d be naive to believe that it won’t be cracked and pirated.

To be honest, just having the DVD as a dongle probably deters most casual pirates. If someone wants to pirate hard enough they will probably find a way, and so until games find a real way to bypass piracy, the best approach is (in my mind) just to suck it up and not punish your customers for something they’re not guilty of.

07/05/2008 at 20:11 gnarr says:

Meta Circus: Or you could, I don’t know, not play them. Just because you don’t think they deserve your money doesn’t mean you are forced to steal it. It’s a game, not a loaf of bread.

Anyway, add me to the list of people who had planned to purchase both titles and now won’t be playing either one. If piracy really is forcing this and Steam’s DRM as the only alternative to the death of the platform, I say let it die in peace. I won’t be buying games for the PC either way, since it’s just not worth the money for the annoyance and the possibility of the game’s “service” being canceled at anytime. I might as well just get a console.

07/05/2008 at 20:19 obdicut says:

Rob:

Well, what a prime example of a false dichotomy; astonishing, if hardly unique here. I think I’m starting to understand why cliffski gets so annoyed in discussions like this.

Yes, it’s a false dichotomy. So is “Either you use DRM or you lose lost of money from pirates.”

And despite being a false dichotomy, it contains a very important point: The legal version is inferior to the cracked version. This is why I legally buy all my games, but replace most of them with the cracked/pirated version, because they have greater utility.

People like Cliffski overlook the genuine, actual good that pirates do. I am more inclined to buy games knowing that, should the SecurROM fuck with my computer, as it so often does, I can just use a crack to get around it.

07/05/2008 at 20:34 obdicut says:

And so is “Either you’re with us or against us”. Simply constructing a list doesn’t make the argument that one not only should but must pirate sooner than buy a game with DRM any more convincing.

I didn’t say it did. However, when DRM exists only because of the false dichotomy “You have to have DRM or you lose a lot of money from pirates”, when there is no data whatsoever to back that up, I think that’s the more significant false dichotomy. It’s also one that Cliffski uses, with great regularity.

what I do object to is the idea that either you get a game without DRM or you pirate it.

That wasn’t what he said, actually. He said he wouldn’t pay money for crippleware, and therefore would pirate it. DRM and crippleware are not synonymous; not all forms of DRM are intrusive. Some, like Stardock’s very, very loose version, are actually a benefit to the user. Steam, too, for all its quirks, can actually claim to be a benefit as well, in terms of updating, allowing backups, etc.

If the functionality for the DRM on ME and Spore is only to cause this check and disable functionality, without providing any benefit to the user– like updates, etc.– then it is different from DRM that’s bundled with an update system, etc.

07/05/2008 at 20:41 obdicut says:

Rob

Fine, change my statement to “what I do object to is the idea that either you get [these] game[s] without DRM or you pirate [them]”, is that what he said, actually? Assuming it is, I still think it’s an appalling argument.

No. I thought I made the DRM/Crippleware difference clear in my post. Is it not clear somehow?

I don’t agree with the argument either, but it is an entirely different argument, since he’s basing it around the “crippleware” concept, and not merely DRM.

07/05/2008 at 20:56 obdicut says:

You complained about the generalization of crippleware to DRM (while still accepting that crippleware is a subset of DRM),

No, I didn’t. I complained about the generalization of DRM as crippleware. I focused on how not all DRM is cripplewear, and that this DRM in particular does appear to be crippleware, allowing the possibility that Meat Circus only pirates games that have crippleware on them, not ones with functional DRM, like Valve’s, or Stardock’s.

“What I do object to is the idea that you either get [Mass Effect and Spore] without [crippleware] or you pirate [Mass Effect and Spore]”

That is now, I feel, an accurate representation of his post, since he’s talking about crippleware, and not DRM. And yes, as I clearly said in my first post, it’s still a false dichotomy.

However, it is true that his only way to get a “fully functional” game is to use the pirated version, as I will. I will also pay for the game, he will not. But the only reason I am able to get a fully functional game is through the efforts of the pirates.

Sweet zombie Jesus it shouldn’t be this hard.

The distinction between functional, valuable DRM, like Stardock’s and Valve’s, and intrusive, crippleware DRM like SecurROM, is a very, very important one.

07/05/2008 at 21:00 Rob says:

Well, that was all excitingly semantic. :) I’ve contributed rather more than I expected to towards the 300 post prediction; some form of agreement having been reached I think I will bow out, at least until the next outrageous comment anyway.

07/05/2008 at 22:19 cliffski says:

Reading all this just makes me 100% convinced to get into console dev. PC gamers are just way too keen to pirate everything at the drop of a hat, and then whine at the devs for daring to protect their investment.
If you want devs to stop treating all gamers as potential criminals then

a) stop fucking pirating everything and
b) apply the same outrage at shops with clothes tags and security guards.

07/05/2008 at 22:39 Alex says:

b) apply the same outrage at shops with clothes tags and security guards.

I’ve made this point before (although I’m not sure you’re really interested in any form of discussion, you’ve made up your mind), but that really doesn’t fly.

If I buy a jacket, the tag is removed. Done. Go home, wear the jacket as much as you like without any further trouble.

When I buy a game, the security guard moves in with me.

Then you’ll say “it’s the fault of the pirates!” and then I’ll say “but your security measures hardly stop pirates at all and only inconvenience the paying public more and more” and then you’ll say I’m making excuses for the pirates and then I’ll say something about siding with consumers, etc.

07/05/2008 at 22:51 Meat Circus says:

@obdicut:

[EVIL RPS CENSORSHIP! Go for opinions, not people - Ed]

If you treat your customers like shit, you deserve to get fucked.

And the easiest way to ensure they do is to pirate Mass Effect and Spore. I certainly wasn’t planning to before today. But as of a few hours ago, I cancelled both my pre-orders for the crippleware versions from Amazon, and am committed to getting the free full versions instead.

I’d urge us all to do the same.

07/05/2008 at 22:53 RichPowers says:

Good riddance cliffski. You could design The Best Game Ever and I wouldn’t buy it just to spite your presumptuous attitude.

07/05/2008 at 23:11 theleif says:

Cliffsky is right, i think. Most PC gamers play pirated games. But, that’s completely irrelevant. It doesn’t matter if a game is pirated 1 time or 10.000.000 times. What’s important is however the person that pirated the game would have bought it if it wasn’t pirated. I think the vast majority of the pirates wouldn’t. Hence, no lost sale (from the non buying pirates). It might be morally and legally wrong but the company doesn”t loose any money. And i also believe that a lot of the lost sales is recuperated by people that pirate the game and then buy it.
And, the cost of implementing DRM is not to be disregarded. It’s not cheep for a company to use SecuROM or other equivalents.
Stardock has proven that you can have great sales using the carrot (you need to register your game to get the updates) instead of a whip.
Steam has proven that you can use DRM as long as you give the users other benefits (unlimited downloads, play your games from any computer with internet access).
These attempts by EA and 2K just generates bad press.

Finally, Bioshock has been brought up a couple of times during this discussion as a game that got greater sales thanks to it’s DRM. Funny, i seem to remember an interview with Ken Levine (i think) where he said that they lost sales due to the protection being cracked a week before the game got released. Good thing they released it on Steam, or i wouldn’t have bought it.
Piracy is an issue, but there’s more ways to counter it other then penalising the legit owner.
One more thing, there is a limit to how many times you can install the games (if they don’t lie on the Bioware forums). 5 times i think. The awful thing is that you need to run a special uninstaller, that you download from their site, to deactivate the game on a given computer. I don’t know you, but i usually upgrade (read: by a new) computer every second year. And i like to dabble with my windows configuration, which always leads to me having to reinstall windows 2-3 times/year. It’s a hobby of mine, ok? :) How many times do you think i will remember to run that special “deactivator”? You guessed right. Not one time. So, to reactivate my game i will have to phone them. Just to be able to play my frigging game!
I don’t get it. As others have posted, even Adobe that sells programs that costs 3000 Euro uses DRM this invasive (invasive to some).

When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn?

07/05/2008 at 23:18 obdicut says:

Theleif:

Thank you for posting that. I’m hoping that perhaps the “DRM yes, Crippleware no!” idea might actually sink into a few executives at companies other than Stardock and Valve.

Keiron:

Everyone, can we keep it civil. Just deleted a couple, and may do more.

Does that mean making fun of your name is right out?

07/05/2008 at 23:24 suibhne says:

Cliffsky is right, i think. Most PC gamers play pirated games.

Uh…sorry, I just don’t buy that. I’ve been an avid online gamer since Myth, and I’ve never run with a crowd that included more than one or two pirates; almost everybody I know buys their PC games new. (Interestingly, tho, some of them were rabid pirates of console games…go figure.) My experience is obviously not generalizable, but c’mon – “most PC games play pirated games”? That’s not supportable.

It doesn’t do anyone (except the DRM makers) any favors to casually bandy around pseudo-facts like that. Let’s put it in perspective: even a 20% piracy rate for a big-name title would be huge, but that still wouldn’t be anywhere close to “most”.

Anyway, I’ve always found it interesting that I don’t experience too much compunction about pirating CDs (unless I’m a big fan of the artist), but I can’t stand the thought of game piracy. Part of it is that I believe in the medium and in its potential for generating transformative experience…but another factor is just that it’s goddamn irritatingly inconvenient. Pirating a CD amounts to maybe 60-90MB of mp3; pirating a game can require d/ling 5 GB of data. I have a damn fast connection by U.S. standards, but that’s still a significant barrier to entry and adds yet another reason for my skepticism about oft-repeated claims that “most” PC gamers are pirates.

07/05/2008 at 23:43 theleif says:

To clear thing up, i didn’t mean that most PC gamers play mostly pirated games. What i meant was that i think most PC gamers have pirated games among their game collection. I know i do. And i can’t think of one friend that has never played a game he didn’t buy.
How do i live with myself as a pirate? I buy at least 2-3 games/month. Once in a while i pirate a game that seems interesting but maybe not worth buying. If i like it, i buy it. If i don’t like it i stop playing it and i don’t buy it. Is that illegal? Yep. Do i feel bad for it? Absolutely not.

07/05/2008 at 23:47 Cooper says:

69% of statistics are made up on the spot

07/05/2008 at 23:55 Saflo says:

He says it makes him 100% convinced, but frankly, I doubt he has the evidence to back it up.

07/05/2008 at 23:59 Dinger says:

Jeezus. Another long thread. Maybe just call it: “Rock, Paper, Pirates.” The journalists and academics (are there any?) can be the paper, and cliffski can be the malleus liberorum.

Either the DRM will be innocuous and easily overcome, or it will be a huge nightmare. Will Wright games aren’t designed for the hardcore; heck I’d wager a significant percentage of their demographic doesn’t know how to pirate a game disc, let alone download an iso. If they don’t even those basics, how do you expect them to be able to manage “phone-home” game DRM?
Guys, for it to work without damaging your reputation, you need to your DRM to have a lifetime failure rate of less than one in a thousand. And it’s that high because we’re talking the PC platform here, where, without DRM, you’re getting a much higher “natural” failure rate. The same factors that cause PC development to be a configuration nightmare make DRM a bitch: it cannot not work. If y’all are so keen on DRM, perhaps you should estimate the cost of every DRM false positive.
So the “hardcore” solution is going to do lots of damage to the brand, and the “innocuous” version isn’t going to help much (but if these guys are smart, that’s what they should be doing: diligence). My money’s on the latter.

Either way, it’ll be cracked, probably before release. If it’s really good, there’ll be cracked servers too. And they will run better.

08/05/2008 at 00:00 unclebulgaria says:

Software as a service just strikes me as another way to hike the margin. Cut the middleman, cut the middleman’s margin. I’d be a bit more in favour if this translated into tangible benefits for me.

Edit: direct tangible benefits.

08/05/2008 at 02:51 heartless_ says:

If all PC gamers are pirates, then how come the #1 game worldwide, World of Warcraft, is not pirated and has managed to sell umpteen millions of copies? There is more than enough evidence, given proper business models, that the majority of PC gamers will pay for a game they wish to play.

The fact of DRM is that companies don’t want to change. They want to put a box on a shelf and get paid for doing so, regardless of whether that is what the customer wants. It is the only way they get paid and it is the only way their distribution channels get paid. It is a “good ole boys club”, and nothing more.

08/05/2008 at 08:14 Larington says:

“If all PC gamers are pirates, then how come the #1 game worldwide, World of Warcraft, is not pirated and has managed to sell umpteen millions of copies? There is more than enough evidence, given proper business models, that the majority of PC gamers will pay for a game they wish to play.”

Primarily because subscription based games have a much greater barrier against piracy, in the sense that as an online game it checks you have a legitimate copy everytime you log into the server and can match log-ins up against CD keys…

08/05/2008 at 09:09 aldo says:

@cliffski

What about Stardock? They’ve made a reputation in not enforcing DRM, and their games have went from strength to strength.

08/05/2008 at 09:15 John P says:

“Everyone enjoying GTA IV on PC right now right?”

Yeah but rockstar went console-lead like 8 years ago or something, I’m not sure it was about piracy. Maybe i’m wrong!

We’ll be playing GTA4 within the year, mark my words!

08/05/2008 at 10:48 Crispy says:

“dot” (comments made way up there) you’re either incredibly naive or an EA plant. Nobody in their right minds would prefer to use EA Link over Steam. Nobody.

Yes, it would have made it impossible for you to play the game two years ago or outside of internet access boundaries, or whatever, but at present, people who would have problems with it are in the absolute minority.

Included in the minority are:
- People in the majority visiting people in the minority for extended periods (i.e. grandparents)
- People in areas of the globe not served with a dedicated internet connection (step out of your Western, geo-centric shell for a moment, think about the emerging Indian, Eastern European and Chinese games markets, and remote parts of the Western world)
- University/College students (you’re talking about a lot of people with a LOT of disposable income and a LOT of time on their hands, 3-4 years, in fact)
- Anyone living in a household who does not have admin access to the Firewall settings
- People who travel a lot as part of their job and play games in their downtime using hotel internet connections

Honestly, I don’t want to call you cruel, cruel names so I’ll just leave it at ‘naive’.

08/05/2008 at 19:38 Nick says:

“Everyone enjoying GTA IV on PC right now right?

Wake up.”

Yeah, just like I enjoyed GTA3, Vice City and San Andreas the same month they were released on PS2.

Stop making stuff up.. even if they don’t release a PC version it’s more likely due to all the crap they went through thanks to Hot Coffee (which was their fault anyway to be honest) rather than piracy.

And I hate Piracy. I understand why they use DRM, I just wish it either worked so there was a good reason for all the money they spend on it (I’d like to see figures collected on how much they spend on DRM and how much they lose from piracy actually, it would be interesting as it’s basically a dual loss anyway), or it wasn’t occasionally a pita for the guys actually buying the games.

09/05/2008 at 18:34 Bob says:

I don’t buy single-player games that require online activation or “phoning home”. To me, it’s like renting a game not buying it if they can turn the servers off and deny me usage of something I paid for. This kind of crap makes me root for the pirates… *&^% them…$%^ them in their stupid @$$e$.

30/05/2008 at 02:15 GrX says:

why is everyone talking about the activation only?

you do know you can only ever re-install this game on the same or another PC 3 times then it’s worthless right?

you have 3 install tokens no re-voke tools it cannot be re-activated after 3 re-installs and there is no revoke tool

you should all be concentrating on that issue alone not
just the “Activation” on start up.

and for the people saying they support this, why?
imagine 300 games in your collection you could never ever install or re-play in the future ever again because at some point you installed them 3 times or upto 3 times.

what happens when they turn their activation servers off/
like the MSDN Music club, Virgin music, Google Video, SuperBowl, And a whole lot of other content providers.

what then? how do you play activate your paid for game?

Wake the hell up and take the blinkers off Ken,

31/05/2008 at 14:41 Sidious says:

Cracked day after release go fuck yourselves ea :)

31/05/2008 at 17:51 neon neophyte says:

i dunno why you people act like pirating doesnt happen on consoles. after you mod your console, you pirate EVERYTHING. dont believe it? look at gta IV on the torrent sites, one hot download. doesnt work on pc. you do the math. console pirates never pay for anything. console pirates are 10x worse than PC pirates. pc pirates tend to buy the odd title. also, considering most consoles are/were sold at a loss, i think the damage being done by console pirates is far worse.

31/05/2008 at 19:21 neon neophyte says:

ps, the resolutions in this game are utter crap. 720p? wtf is this, an xbox? i play my games at 1080p. learn to program.

01/06/2008 at 02:21 neon neophyte says:

mmk, theres 1080p. my bad. *whew*

09/08/2008 at 21:07 Seven8nine says:

Securom never ever stopped a game from beeing pirated. This approach is not working and they must know that by now. There must be another reason for still using securom. Maybe they are spying on you. Anyway Mass Effect was cracked and pirates have no trouble with the game. Spore Creature Creator was also cracked and I bet the whole Spore will not be any different story. DRM is just a big fail for the customers. If you have the choice to put your money on some crappy disc that will not install or tell you that you are not using the correct disc even when you are or have the choice to get a working game that you can enjoy for as long as you like, whenever you like, then what will you get? Games are meant to be fun, thats why we get them.

29/08/2008 at 03:59 TokeyMcBongRip says:

“Larington says:

“If all PC gamers are pirates, then how come the #1 game worldwide, World of Warcraft, is not pirated and has managed to sell umpteen millions of copies? There is more than enough evidence, given proper business models, that the majority of PC gamers will pay for a game they wish to play.”

Primarily because subscription based games have a much greater barrier against piracy, in the sense that as an online game it checks you have a legitimate copy everytime you log into the server and can match log-ins up against CD keys…”

is it just me or do none of you know that there are hundreds of private world of warcraft servers out there(if not thousands)the game is being pirated as much as any other game out there i originally downloaded an played world of warcraft on a server called xaos wow, then relized that if i payed per month, the game actually worked properly with little to no lag! some people pirate games just to try them out, and then buy them because the game is good and deserves the cash, some games just dont deserve any money because they are rushed(need for speed pro street) glad i rented that game lmfao!

im just getting tired of EA all together! and is it just me or did anyone else notice in the retail creature creator for spore in the manual it states that before installing spore you must uninstall the creature creator or the game wont install ( meaning EA successfully scammed 10 extra bucks off of everybody who went out and bought the creature creator because they were not aware that this was not needed to play the game) the box is even misleading, im looking at it right now it clearly states SPORE STARTER KIT, hmmm starter kit-building block needed to play the entire game….WRONG!!! and worse yet i even emailed EA asking if this was needed for spore because i wasnt going to buy it if it was included in the full game when its released(which it is!) and guess what i got, an email back going on about something else and never answering my question maybe later ill dig up the response i got, to show how useless their support staff is! im just ticked because i preordered the galactic edition because its going to be one of the biggest games of the year(it deserves it) but now instead of paying 80 bucks i just payed 90 bucks and got a ten dollar dvd and case that are utterly useless! im not worried bout the drm that will be fixed by some kid in korea or china who first cracks the drm and uploads it to the world(props to whoever that is) im just sick of EA trying to swindle us all out of every cent they can get their sticky little fingers on, microtransactions, charging for cheatcodes or other content that can easily be unlocked by playing through the game, and now only allowing a game to be installed only 3 times(if say it was 10 or 20 id say ok but 3 FUCK YOU EA!)

23/09/2008 at 14:02 John D says:

The EA fora have been heavily suppressed and censored. Dissent is deleted. Complaints are deleted. Threads and posts about editing or modding have been deleted. All without any word as to why or chance for appeal.

EA are a god awful company and treat their customers like garbage and rely on flashy spin and slick marketing to win over the dim-witted fanboys into another purchase and parroting their press releases.