By John Walker on May 15th, 2008 at 10:35 pm.
First of all Briosafreak, how dare you accuse me of an “unfortunate piece” when I incredibly deliberately post month old news. Secondly, thanks for the tip off to the brand new Fallout 3 artwork.
There’s 11 new pieces to oogle, along with intricate commentary from concept artist, Adam Adamowicz, if you’ll only click here. It’s much more interesting than the usual concept art dump, with stories explaining each piece, entertainingly writte. Such as:
“Don’t shoot him, you’ll just make him mad.” The famous line from Blazing Saddles describing Mongo, was my guiding inspiration for these guys. I wanted them to look like they would step into a tree shredder, for relaxation. Their musculature was to be straining at the bone structure underneath, creating a hyper jacked up caricature of a person in the throes of radioactive testosterone poisoning, and liking it.
or
Nature gets uglier, bigger, and riddled with tumors, growths, hideous discolorations, excretions and where needed, extra appendages. Anatomy became a lego set, and like the weapons I wanted the new arrangements to not only look like they’d work, but also be deadly and contribute to superior speed, shielding and oversized pokey-stabby bits. Resilience to radiation would be a blessing and a curse, the curse part resulting in a perpetual state of pissed off, like someone with a body sized cold sore. The gross out factor possibilities were enormously fun and generally involved some manner of organic internal projectile or flail.
15/05/2008 at 22:53 Briosafreak says:
Sorry…
Since you misspelled my nick (in true Kieron fashion) I think we’re even. :)
I wish they had put this diary online a few months ago, and by now they should have one with 3d art and in game pictures instead, but it really is an interesting read so it’s ok, I guess.
The guys that go to E3 will be able to play it, that should be even more interesting.
15/05/2008 at 23:03 Pidesco says:
Yes, Kieron’s knowledge of Portuguese football cup winners is truly appalling.
This is some nice artwork.
15/05/2008 at 23:03 John Walker says:
Ok, but now you’ve accused me of being like Kieron, so we’re back where I have to be rude to you again.
You… you… POOPYFACE.
15/05/2008 at 23:16 O.G.N says:
So, any news on the really important things about Fallout 3? Will it use the same kind of screwed up DRM as Bioshock, Mass Effect, and Spore, or is it safe to preorder it?
15/05/2008 at 23:27 Ging says:
Surely, you can just pre-order it and if you hear that it contains said drm go ahead and cancel it?
16/05/2008 at 00:46 MindBrain says:
They better not dumb down Fallout 3. I want blood and gore, strong language, adult themes and hardcore gameplay.
16/05/2008 at 00:54 Schadenfreude says:
I still mourn the loss of Crotch-Shots. And the goofy looking mutants (Well, more like Desperate Dan).
Dunno, I’m just not all that excited about this game. Post Oblivion Apathy Disorder I suspect. It will be interesting to see NMA spontaneously combust when they finally get hold of a copy though.
16/05/2008 at 01:00 Buzzard says:
Fallout 3 is going to be fucking awesome. If you think otherwise you should go back to NWA and whine about how it’s lame that it’s no longer in 640 by 400 resolution and no longer isometric.
16/05/2008 at 01:02 The_B says:
Sorry, but does no one else think it’s a terrible shame that some great new games are coming out, and yet O.G.N’s response is the first thing people are wanting to know?
:(
(Not meaning to open the “can’o'p” here by the way, just an observeration.)
16/05/2008 at 02:16 SixStringSamurai says:
no crotch shots is sad. true. no child killing is just… tragic. not that I would do that of course. it just gets more and more badasser each time more info/concept comes out.
16/05/2008 at 02:30 MtotheThird says:
Based on the previews I’ve read and from what I’ve seen so far, I’m expecting F3 to be a resounding “Meh”. It looks as though Bethesda is focusing all of their efforts on making it both attractive and with a wonderfully coherent aesthetic. This was a great read, and I loved the look of CRAB MAN (hello man in a rubber suit from a 50s monster movie!). This game will undoubtedly be GORGEOUS.
Story-wise, though, from the previews it would appear that they’ve chopped dialogue and character development down to just-barely-above-Oblivion levels. Atmospherically, they’ve loaded it up on cartoony head-explody gore but left out the horror. And horror is what makes a game Fallout.
Everyone makes fun of NMA nerds for harping on and on about not being able to kill children in F3. While they may be creepy pedosociopaths, they have a point. The addictions, sleaze, desperation, and brutality of the Fallout world were what made it so different from other RPGs, throwing the numerous moments of nobility, heroism and kindness in its stories into sharp relief.
F1 and F2 were grand and epic tragedies, that drew you in by forcing you to make the same agonizing moral choices that the desperate survivors around you made. F3 looks like it will be Mad Max. I will certainly buy it, and I will almost certainly enjoy it. But I don’t expect it to affect me as deeply and permanently as Fallout has.
16/05/2008 at 03:56 lilgamefreek says:
The random, perfectly normal cockroach on the creature page was…. too cute. :D
16/05/2008 at 06:46 Brother None says:
Same old tune.
I’ve said this on multiple sites now which I hate to do, but it’s really weird to release concept art at this point in the development cycle. Half a month ago Todd Howard announced the game is “basically done”. So why am I looking at concept art?
Eh? I don’t think the subject of childkilling has come up in months now on NMA. Hell, when it became clear it was out, a few people cried foul but the others just pointed out that you can’t have child-killing in any game release in the industry as it is now.
And that’s reality, you can’t. It’s mentioned every now and again but honestly, “harping on”?
Is it? I think expectancies are so low at this point that it’ll be hard-pressed to get more than a shrug and a giggle. That’s what it got from me viewing the demo, anyway.
Oh irony
16/05/2008 at 08:01 Pavel says:
Hate supermutants, like almost everything else.
16/05/2008 at 08:28 Kadayi says:
I quite liked EDGE magazines recent and rather encouraging preview on Fallout 3, there were some choice comments in it as well:-
‘Thankfully as we see more and more of the game, it seems these detractors are misguided’
as well as (in reference to the sequenced combat):-
‘The arterial spray that resulted should satisfy both the desire for visceral action and tactical play, even if it fails to tickle those hampered by irrational levels of nostalgia’
Says it all really. Ultimately at the end of the day if a couple of hundred people don’t buy it, it’s not that big a deal tbh.
Personally I don’t see the problem with releasing some more concept art this late in the game. The same thing happened with bioshock tbh. There is no point releasing all your CA early on, because CA is principally about generating ideas, many of which won’t see the light of day, because it’s an evolutionary process. Artist comes up with idea based off initial outline, team discusses pros & cons, feedback to Artist, Artist makes adjustments, rinse repeat until everyone is happy with the over all. There would be no point releasing Art work that never went anywhere in the end.
16/05/2008 at 08:32 Brokenbroll says:
I’ll just change the name to Third Outfall in my mind, and pretend its a new IP inspired by, but not connected, to Fallout and its sequel.
16/05/2008 at 08:53 Jochen Scheisse says:
‘The arterial spray that resulted should satisfy both the desire for visceral action and tactical play, even if it fails to tickle those hampered by irrational levels of nostalgia’
Nah, that’s bullshit. If I wish a game where I can drink my coffee while I fight, I definitely won’t be satisfied by FPS with some effect remotely similar to bullet time. And that has nothing to do with Nostalgia, I just like the turn based school of game mechanics.
16/05/2008 at 09:24 Yhancik says:
Uh oh, someone said “dumb down” :p
16/05/2008 at 12:09 Roman Levin says:
Crotch shots are out? Then what’s the point in aimed shots now?
16/05/2008 at 13:59 Jae Armstrong says:
At least we have brain bots.
16/05/2008 at 14:02 Nick says:
If you can’t hit a child in the crotch with a sledgehammer, then what’s the point in teaching?
16/05/2008 at 14:09 Brother None says:
Yeah, I can see how that’s encouraging.
For me, it’s just old.
Still, it’s funny for me how absolutely obsessed these game journalists are with the opinion of a small fansite like NMA. “Just a couple of hundred of people”, yet nobody seems to be able to stop talking about us.
Then again, it’s less funny how bad gaming journalism really is. It’s like nobody ever heard of audi alteram partem. They’ll misrepresent us as much as they like, but actually approach us for a counter-word? Heck no, that’d be proper journalism, and we’ll have none of that (‘cept the Escapist and GFW).
16/05/2008 at 14:40 Acosta says:
Since when NMA is a organization with a sole voice that could give a counter voice? It wouldn’t be an unitary voice as the only common belief about the future of Fallout is that is not what Bethesda is doing. Out of that, is a can of worms where everyone is so passionate about the game that knows 100% where it should go.
16/05/2008 at 17:15 kadayi says:
@Brother None
It’s not so much to do with their obsession, but more to do with yours Brother None. If it wasn’t for the very vocal protestations regarding Fallout 3 here, there and everywhere by hardcore fans such as yourself I doubt they’d hold you up as a target for ridicule. Acosta makes a good point tbh, if you were perhaps a previous developer like say Warren Spector was with Deus Ex then perhaps the professional press might care for your input on the game, but simply being a longtime fan of a series is no real qualification. Coaches of football clubs don’t listen to advice from the terraces when it comes to how their team plays. Your massive post counts are pretty meaningless tbh.
16/05/2008 at 17:41 Moorkh says:
Lame argument. Computer games are – at least in some people’s minds – a cutlural product and thus involved in a constant interchange between developers and consumers at some level. NMA has been the ‘chruch of Fallout’ for a long time when nobidy cared for the heritage – they do have a certain right to the game, even if copyright law and limited mindsets refuse to recognize it. Using the Fallout label for something that does not respect the legacy is about like adding an official third testament to the bible and designing it as a jump’n'run for Nokia’s NGage…
In addition to that, both Brother None/Karn and Briosafreak have always stayed respectful in their scepticism. If you want to accuse them for the words of some members of their community, you better hold BethSoft and others to that of theirs.
BTW, any football coach wanting to keep his job for any lengh of time is bound to listen very closely to elements of the terrace as soon as his luck runs tough for the first time.
16/05/2008 at 17:56 Briosafreak says:
Actually it was you that started going off topic, because of your own personal obsession with Fallout fans and NMA.
We were talking about the Dev diary, can we continue now?
And “poopyface”?… That means a game of M.A.D. is coming!
16/05/2008 at 18:09 Nick says:
“they do have a certain right to the game”
What about everyone else who loved the games but don’t post there? They are somehow less worthy?
Although I’m betting a lot of people who don’t post on NMA are still highly dubious of Fallout 3. I know I am.
16/05/2008 at 18:18 Moorkh says:
They have more of a right to it because they cultured it. That’s why. Others just sat back and did nothing, forgot about it for a while and only now come back to it because it’s the new Oblivion.
16/05/2008 at 19:27 YogSo says:
Just my two cents about the concept art:
I don’t like the design of the robots. They all have a very “unFallouty” appearance, specially the humanoid ones. The rest of the concept art is pretty spot on the visuals of the Fallout universe, but those robots? They could be in any generic sci-fi B-movie. Very meh.
And Torr was right: bugmen DO exist!
16/05/2008 at 19:40 Nick says:
“They have more of a right to it because they cultured it. That’s why. Others just sat back and did nothing, forgot about it for a while”
Or maybe they just didn’t post on NMA? A lot of NMA people modded it, enhanced it for others, that’s great and some of the work is fantastic, but sitting around masturbating over it or creating third party enhancements doesn’t give you any more right to it than anyone else. And this is coming from someone who is in agreement with a lot of what the NMA chaps have to say about how F3 is looking. What you are saying just sounds like purely arrogant rubbish.
You don’t hear the people from Pocketplane group or Gibberlings 3 harping on about how they have some sort of extra special divine right to the Infinity engine games and they are just as dedicated. For example.
16/05/2008 at 20:03 Kadayi says:
It’s quite disturbing how you seem to have somehow turned a 10 year old computer game into a religion. The idea that unless you’ve squandered years of your life posting on obscure websites obsessively arguing the pros and cons of whether this or that is the best perk to pick, you have no right to comment on the development of Fallout 3 is laughable, and smacks of little more than empty elitist geek snobbery. I’d put the opinions of a broader gamer/reviewer over those of a fanatic on the pros and cons of a new iteration of a franchise any day of the week, because the response is going to be much more measured and meaningful.
As for Football, I’ve yet to see Alex Ferguson, Arsene Wenger or Rafa Benitez turn to the terraces at half time for a tactical briefing, and those guys seem to be pretty successful.
Anyhows, back on topic. I think the art looks very good and the ideas well conceived, I just hope that when it comes down to the game itself the creatures don’t look too generic, and there is a suitable degree of variation, rather than 3 models for this and that. I’m also concerned as to how large the actual game world will be in terms of size. I think fallout does require an epic scale, and suspect simply because of technological constraints it will be less than that.
16/05/2008 at 20:41 SwiftRanger says:
“Although I’m betting a lot of people who don’t post on NMA are still highly dubious of Fallout 3. I know I am.”
Oh yeah, good luck trying to convince the press about that though.
The art isn’t bad but it’s clearly no Anderson or Boyarsky. I’d still say something is “odd” about it. Please don’t squash me now.
16/05/2008 at 22:18 Moorkh says:
If you think of games solely in business, materialistic manner, of course you are right – whoever buy the right of a franchise from someone else is the new owner and can do whatever he wants with it.
However, if you consider games cultural goods, then they are more than that. They in a way forever belong to their authors and to their audience. This cannot just be traded away. Of course, there were people outside of NMA that had played and cherished the games. But those that invested more, that embraced the game this with consequence and thus kept it alive are doubtlessly more entitled to it than others.
BTW: I don’t agree with much of what the NMA folks demand for, but I believe they have maybe not THE, but some right.
16/05/2008 at 23:25 Pijama says:
You don’t need to be a huge fan of Fallout to notice that BethSoft will not do justice to franchise. Just play Oblivion with a more critical look, and see the flaws. I wouldn’t mind if they were irrelevant… But AWFUL dialogue, four actors to speak for all characters in game and an atrocious lack of effort in the development of story is quite a bad track record when you are making a sequel to a game which is known for it’s amazing atmosphere.
This isn’t your average RPG. It is Fallout. Do it justice, Bethesda.
P.S.: Before the post I was trying to find a site which contained all the damn hype (which I fell for) of Oblivion thanks to their blood-powered PR machine. One thing is to exaggerate; other is to make blatant lies. I will try finding it.
17/05/2008 at 00:17 Jochen Scheisse says:
Oh god, the worst thing is always when someone forces the justification debate on some fanboy, because he who does so will make both himself and the fanboy look like total asses. And justifying it isn’t even necessary: Everyone’s got the right to his or her own opinion.
17/05/2008 at 11:17 Kadayi says:
It’s a game, not the sacred teachings of Jesus Chris. What part of that don’t you quite understand?
@Pijama
Amusing as it is to anthropomorphise entire companies into mindless unseeing automatons, I think it’s reasonable to assume that Beth are probably well aware of the various criticisms they’ve received regarding Oblivion and won’t necessarily repeat their mistakes. That’s not to say they might not make new ones with Fallout 3, but it would be naïve to assume they will repeat old ones. I’m sure the people working at Beth have as much passion for gaming as anyone else and take pride in their work, and ultimately want to make a good game and one that is better the Oblivion.
@Jochen
But they have more rights apparently. Don’t you see, don’t you see? ;)
17/05/2008 at 11:52 Jochen Scheisse says:
That’s a bit mean. Also totally justified, of course :D
Anyways, it’s not unfair to assume that Bethesda will have problems with the story, because they were never really known for their excellent storytelling. But I think they will try to change this with Fallout.
17/05/2008 at 12:13 Nick says:
The storyline in Daggerfall was pretty interesting I thought..,
17/05/2008 at 13:36 Jochen Scheisse says:
I found the special thing about Fallout was how social interaction could drive the story line, and I can’t remember that Bethesda ever managed to archieve that, in any Elder Scroll game. I really found the dialogue tree one of the most distinguishing features of the Fallout series. Making the character’s general intelligence and skill values influence the dialogue options led the storyline away from the general railroading you experience in many RPGs. Smalltalk options completed the feeling of the places you entered, instead of being random and meaningless. Vampire developed this even further, with skills tieing into your dialogue tree directly (you could choose to roll against intimidation and such) as well as indirectly (options being unlocked by ‘hidden checks’).
Bethesda tends to produce stat managers with a comparably lame real time combat system (compared to that of Prince of Persia or Dynasty Warriors or even Mount and Blade), excellent graphics and a nice main storyline. But I can understand the doubts people have about them being able to hold and develop the FO social interaction system standard.
17/05/2008 at 14:28 Nick says:
I thought Oblivion’s main storyline was utter tosh (and super short for that matter). In fact the only thing resembling a good storyline in the game was the Dark Brotherhood – which at least shows someone can write there.
17/05/2008 at 21:25 Brother None says:
NMA is an organization was a single voice, as worded by its staff (who are obviously not a “single” voice, but come pretty close). No one else represents NMA.
As I said, our staff has been interviewed before. It works. If good journalists like The Escapist or the folks from GFW can do it, what’s so hard about it?
I think you mean if it isn’t for those ridiculous idiots that go as far as stating death threats or taking offensive, personal stabs at Bethesda, then…etc. etc.
We’re not all that insane, though. But if you want to say “those kind of people exist, and they detract from the fanbase as a whole”, I can only agree. They exist, and they do. Even on NMA they’re not the majority, though. I’ve seen collections of overstated negative quotes from NMA before, they tend to all come from two users, Sorrow and Rosh, neither of which post anymore (note: I respect Rosh, but he did overstate his case with some “violent” words)
This isn’t the NFL and Todd Howard is not The Tuna.
Besides, when it comes to the Fallout fanbase, that’s a *very* novel take. Other than Fallout:BoS, all major Fallout developers have always stayed in touch with the fans, asked for opinions in open debate, and some still post on NMA.
And that changed, fine, but don’t act like it’s a weird thing to occur. It’s quite normal in the gaming industry, though in decline.
Also, I’ve given us no qualification at all. You’re twisting things upside down. It’s the magazines and sites that start talking about us, and *then* I say “if they wish to speak for us, they should ask our opinion”, if they stop talking about us, which they never do, it would be fine. That’s audi alteram partem, a core journalistic principle, do not presume to speak for someone who can speak for himself. Since some name NMA *exactly* and speak for it, they do have the journalistic obligation to give us a chance to speak for ourselves. Hell, even Fox does that
The great thing about Interplay’s era was that everyone who cared to get involved was worthy. Some extremists soured it up somewhat, sure, as did everyone go wrong at some points (MCA, Feargus, even with Sawyer).
Worthy is such a ridiculous term. As is trying to block of who is a fan or who isn’t. But NMA is the only existing single major entity representing the fanbase. The rest are significantly smaller or single voices. It’s not perfect, but it’s what we have. And since NMA is not insular, anyone can come aboard and argue points.
Attitudes don’t matter. Opinions and arguments do. I don’t care if you think is a car is the second coming of Christ, as long as you can still rationally explain to me how and why it’s better than any other car.
18/05/2008 at 09:47 Kadayi says:
The best you can do is wriggle on the words? The analogy is entirely the same whatever the setting. Creators create and fans choose to consume, some creators might chose to engage interactively with their fans (Josh Whedon, Lindelof & Cuse), but ultimately that is their choice, not their obligation or your right as you seem to believe.
Also I’m surprised you cite The Escapist as ‘good’ Journalists given Russell Pitts permanently banned you for daring to denounce their dismal Witcher Review (Something we actually agree on btw), he’s hardly the gleaming light of the gaming industry. As for GFW, at best they were marvelling at your sites completely overblown and myopic reaction to Jeff Greens initial and fairly innocuous observations as to what Beth were doing with fallout 3 in terms of replicating the visual style of the original games. What Jeff said in his blog:-
If you actually bothered listening to his podcasts and read enough of Jeffs’ articles (I know it’s not your strong point, you prefer to sound byte secondhand) you’d realize that he’s probably about the most reasonable man in games journalism (Kieron comes a close second), but that didn’t stop you collectively turning on him like a pack of rabid dogs in the end, despite his more than sincere attempts to discuss the matter with you. Ultimately short of Black Isle miraculously reforming and buying back the license, there doesn’t seem much that’s every likely to please you.
Now you say this:-
But in the very same post you say this:-
This kind of contradicts the former. Is it a single voice or a collective one? From what I’ve witnessed it’s generally a ‘my way or the highway’ approach, followed by cheers from the arena, as the Christians are fed to the lions. If you were that concerned for your sites image you’d shit can the very people who drag your site down, with their overboard death threats and 7000 word mega rants, but instead it seems as long as you’re ‘hating’ it’s all good at NMA. God help Kieron or Jim when they finally get to (p)review the game at length for Eurogamer, as to how their articles be received by the crowds. Fair and balanced? I think not.
18/05/2008 at 21:15 Brother None says:
No, the best I can do is point out the analogy is invalid. Because fan opinion is irrelevant in sports, but it is used as a tool in game development. It isn’t for Fallout 3, but that doesn’t mean it’s a general impossibility. Hence the analogy is invalid. That’s all I’m saying.
Please quote where I claimed any entitlement of NMA vis-a-vis Bethesda here? Simple request.
And yet, relatively, they’re strong gaming journalists. Says a lot about the gaming industry, no?
Or they contacted me, we discussed the article they were doing and why, and I went with it. You assume too much.
I think assumptions aren’t your strong point. You assume I haven’t been mailing privately with Jeff Green for a long time now, and that we’ve not discussed his and mine attitude towards Fallout 3 and the job of the media in the middle of the fisticuffs Bethesda and NMA are at. You assume wrong.
You also presume to speak for me. I respect Jeff Green. I have stated so many times.
Uh-huh. You slid in this standard tripe…because? I could point out and discuss the history of NMA, how we tried to make contact with Bethesda but were turned away, how we enforced a wait and see rule. But I think your mind’s already made up, so I see little point. You’re not interested in facts, you just want to write NMA off. Your choice.
Where did I say it was a collective one?
Our ban list includes many people who went too far in their language. Anyone who breaks our rules is out.
Go to any of the newsthread at the top of the forum now and you’ll see posters disagreeing with us, but being civil and factual. That’s all it takes, for everyone. In this idiotic protracted flame war, there are no innocents, but it is not NMA that wrote off people as “NMA trolls” for having an opinion (that’d be Something Awful, QT3 and NeoGAF), nor NMA who has attempted to hack other people’s sites or their staff computers (again, SA). I’m not going to make protracted excuse, like any community NMA has its flaws and I can live with that. But compare is to that other major Fallout-dedicated forum, the Bethesda Gamesoft Fallout 3 forum, and it’s not hard to figure out where the most civil and sensible discussion happens.
I think you have twisted views of who is responsible for what here, though. I care about your opinion, but certainly not enough to adapt NMA’s policy to it even if I could (I can’t, I’m not NMA’s boss).
18/05/2008 at 21:25 Kadayi says:
You fell at the first hurdle there, try again. The rest is you vaguely attempting to cover your ass in the usual contradictory manner, I’ve come to know and love.
18/05/2008 at 21:27 Brother None says:
I notice you weren’t able to quote me stating any entitlement. Does that mean you want to stop talking? If so, I’m fine with that.
I’m not going to sit here disputing an analogy which I already explained my viewpoint on, especially since the analogy isn’t important when the viewpoints are already clear and don’t need extra explaining.
If you wish to continue actually talking, I’ll be here.
18/05/2008 at 21:50 Kadayi says:
You claimed it when you stated NMA was an organization with a collective voice rather than merely a fansite to support Moorkhs bizarre assertions regarding NMAs legitimacy of opinion above all others.
As for how NMA is run, you still haven’t answered me from a previous thread why this guy got banned:-
http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41857
No swearing, no trolling, just looking for answers (albeit naively). But banned outright.
Whereas our good friends Sorrow & Rosh, practically calling for the murder of the entire Beth team, and any games journalist who likes the look of Fallout 3 are still posting. ;)
18/05/2008 at 21:57 Brother None says:
That was in the context of speaking of journalists using audi alteram partem. In fact, in this entire comment bit, all I have been talking about is journalists presuming to speak for fans without bothering to check with the biggest fansite. You put words in my mouth that this relates to me claiming Bethesda should listen to NMA. Again, where did I claim that?
And I thought I made it clear last time: I do not agree with that ban. There are plenty of bans I don’t agree with. Note how I did not claim above that NMA is perfectly run, I claimed it’s better run than places like BGSF. And so it is. But I don’t run NMA. I’ll see if I can get this one lifted and yes, I probably should’ve done so before.
I already said neither Sorrow nor Rosh is actively posting. Rosh returned a bit but left again, Sorrow left ages ago and was about to be banned anyway. Why do you say they’re posting only a few posts after I point out they’re not?
18/05/2008 at 22:21 Kadayi says:
Why would or should a Games Journalist bother to speak to a fanbase, or a specific fan site for their opinions? GFW did you an unusual courtesy tbf, and that was only in light of NMAs vilification of Jeff Greens blog post. A games Journalists responsibility is to convey to his/her readers the nature of the game as a whole experience, not to get bogged down into minutiae regarding what’s come before.
No games Journalists are out there bemoaning the fact that in GTAIV Liberty City is nothing like Liberty City in GTA 3. I’m quite sure there are some fans of the series railing against that very matter, but is it fair to assume their views even if organized represent the opinions of all, or that those opinions should used to attempt to hamstring the project? If it fair and reasonable to put continuity above creativity?
19/05/2008 at 16:04 dhex says:
long story short, the moral of all things we learn from the internet is the same:
liking anything is bad.
19/05/2008 at 18:47 Brother None says:
Kadayi: I don’t know if you’re just trolling or really misreading, but I repeat: *IF* game journalists pretend to speak for us, it becomes their duty to apply audi alteram partem because that’s journalism, *IF* they never mention us or pretend to speak for us, they have no such obligation.
I’ve repeated that multiple times now, very clearly, and you’re either being obtuse in your intended disliking of NMA or – sorry – kind of stupid.
19/05/2008 at 21:36 Kadayi says:
Where exactly are these Journalists whom are pretending to speak exclusivelyfor NMA? Not those speaking for fans of fallout as a whole, as in:-
‘Fans of the series might appreciate the way in which Beth has cleverly reinterpreted the 2D gameworld into 3D’
but those exactly saying:-
‘Members of NMA appreciate the way in which Beth has cleverly reinterpreted the 2D gameworld into 3D’.
Being a fan of fallout I’ve read plenty of previews, and listened to plenty of podasts, and heard a fair amount of the former, but none of the latter. If there’s someone out there you feel the need to out for a lack of journalistic integrity go for it. But unless someones citing you directly I’m not seeing a case. Either way though, your opinions are your own alone and you shouldn’t mistake them as anything more than that.
Agreed. When passion turns to obsession, no good can come of it.
19/05/2008 at 22:31 Brother None says:
Well, here is an example of speaking of NMA and attributing opinion to it (you need to have that question in context to understand why, though), it’s happened before, but you’re going to have to excuse me if I’m not going to dig back up.
Besides, mentioning “rabid fans” in general and then pretending there is no one available to speak for said fans is just a cop-out. It’s true, there’s less of an obligation there, but that doesn’t mean it’s not journalistically unsound.
It’s not my opinion that audi alteram partem is a core journalistic value, it’s fact. If you want to refute it, you’ll have to come up with something better than “it’s just your opinion”.
The obsession comment is so funny when you consider Fallout isn’t even my favourite game, and the same goes for several staff members.
20/05/2008 at 00:03 Kadayi says:
I’m not disputing audi alteram partem, I’m making the point that your opinion on fallout 3 is yours alone, and you shouldn’t mistake it as a universal one, simply because you have a website.
I listened to the Game theory Podcast (the source of the interview) and although the interviewer does name check your site, he only does so only when outlining his experience with RPGs such as fallout/Morrowind, not to speak on your behalf or to misrepresent you as you claim.
20/05/2008 at 13:05 Corwin says:
Kadayi, Brother None – in the interest of getting back to discussing the concept art, a moment of your time, please.
The debate you’re both running is very old, as you’ve both pointed out, and comes down to a simple point – games companies either respect and listen to their fans or they don’t.
I’m not going to speak to which approach I favor, but has it occurred to either of you that if you look at the two highest-grossing games companies of all time – Blizzard and Bungie – you need only to look at their operating methodology to see why.
Blizzard and Bungie both listen to their fans.
In both cases, both companies admit that they were wildly successful because of – not in spite of – the massive amount of support and input they receive from their fans.
The Elder Scrolls, while a healthy franchise, has never and will never generate sales figures like “Most sold media in history” – that’s media of any kind, kids. No movie, no music, no game – in fact, no combination of the above – ever sold more than Halo 3. World of Warcraft, the next highest grossing media of all time, was the product of a studio the listens to its fan base.
Why is this the case? Because ultimately, gamers (and in specific RPG fans) are not sheep. They will not bow to concepts like Bethesda’s “We Know Best” theory.
Real gamers want someone to listen to their input on their games, and make changes as needed. More modernly, they will accept other members of the community repairing a game in the absence of the designer’s involvement (see also: 3rd party hacks needed to make Oblivion remotely realistic/playable), but that doesn’t absolve the game company of the need to work with, rather than against, their fans wishes.
Just the perspective of a moderately interested general gamer who’s vastly more interested in the Starcraft 2 release and is mainly looking over this Not Really A Fallout Game ™ in his spare time.
20/05/2008 at 13:19 Corwin says:
Another quick point – again without personal bias, I hope – is that not every game survives the transition to an alternate platform. Castlevania basically died as a franchise when it went 3D, but has resurfaced with a massive following now that it is a Platform Game again.
I’m a fairly old gamer. I’ve seen games make the successful leap to 3D (Warcraft is the only one I can think of off hand, but I’m a little tired) and I’ve seen games land like dead fish by changing platform.
While not a “rabid fallout fan”, I am looking forward to seeing how this game does. I would like to think that the game is intrinsically strong enough to survive – even flourish – as a 3D game. But, ultimately, the game will have to be Fallout at its core, rather than Elder Scrolls: Wasteland.
20/05/2008 at 13:33 fluffy bunny says:
Blizzard and Bungie are also two of the most boring companies around. Yes, they release quality stuff. But everything they do is so _predictable_. I wish they’d stop listening to their fans, who always want more of the same, and do something interesting for a change.
Oh, and Fallout 3: yay! I wish Bethesda had found a more interesting franchise to revive, or made something original, but I’m still looking forward to it.
20/05/2008 at 19:00 Corwin says:
*laughs in good-natured humor* Fluffy, no one makes original games any more. I’ve seen a few new “original” game engines, but no new game concepts.
*grins* Personally, I found the Elder Scrolls series completely predictable – disappointingly so considering the number of places where they could have gone for an original concept and didn’t. Their games under the Star Trek franchise were both unoriginal and boring – though I will give them credit for making Star Trek games that are no worse than anyone else’s concepts.
The fact is, Bethesda makes wonderful game engines. Beautiful, masterful game engines. Then they tack on a bunch of easily predictable plot and an interface that’s more of a hindrance than a help and pay a bunch of game magazines to tell us all how the new game is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
I agree with you, Blizzard and Bungie don’t aim for original any more, much to my regret. One could argue that they don’t need to – they ARE the original, in virtually every category except MMO, and there they basically rewrote the book (from what I hear – I still refuse to play a Warcraft game that doesn’t involve armies ;-))
Find me a game company in the last 10 years that set a standard, and I can find you the game it’s based on – if not a video game then a tabletop RPG, war game or board game. In many ways, that goes for Blizzard and Bungie, too.
Regardless, my point wasn’t that they were original – a concept I no longer believe in – but that they were successful. Wildly successful – based in large part on the fact that their fans trust them (mostly because the company listens to its fan base).
*grins* If I don’t like a shirt, I don’t buy it. If a coffee shop has bad coffee, I avoid it. I don’t need anyone else to agree with the assessment – hell, Starbucks would be out of business if they did. But I do have to admit Starbucks must be doing something right if it’s America’s coffee house – even if I don’t agree with the reason for the success.
20/05/2008 at 20:34 Kadayi says:
The debate I’m having is very much here and now, and it has nothing to do with whether games companies listen to their fans or not (that is their prerogative at the end of the day). Whether they are financially successful or not as a result of their actions is of little consequence to me, because it is not a gauge of success I’m interested in (it has no bearing on the subject). What I am interested in is Brother None coming up with some legitimate argument to support his assertion that Journalists should somehow defer to NMA as an official point of reference when discussing Fallout 3.
Regardless of how big a game fansite is, it’s rare even in these days of interconnectivity that one exists that purports to represent the majority viewpoint of fans/consumers of a series. NMA has about 13k members registered, though barely more than 1500 have more than 20 posts, at a conservative estimate the actual active community is probably about 150 – 200 posters tops. I don’t have the exact sales figures for Fallout, but given it’s high regard it’s probable it sold somewhere around half a million units. Is it fair to assume those 200 posters represent the views of all those past consumers? Is it fair to believe their dedication to visiting a website entitles them to more of a voice as to fallout 3s direction? Those are the questions I’m interested in.
21/05/2008 at 04:02 Albides says:
Says Corwin:
…
Where have they done this? One could argue that the whole Elder Scrolls series development tells a story of listening to their fans, or, at the very least, their critics. Morrowind attempted to reduce Daggerfall’s absurd filler while still retaining the open world (which I think it did quite well, even if some fans disliked not being able to join 20 different guils all of which did the same thing). Oblivion, which many accuse of being more dumbed down than Morrowind, was really an attempt to address the concerns raised in the previous title, from combat, to creating the illusion of a living city, to that stupid hand-holding compass, which was a direct result of people whining about not knowing what to do after they’re pushed through the bureaucratic process involved in creating a character and dumped in Seyda Neen to make it on their own.
They achieved this refinement with varying degrees of success (or failure), but to say that they’re blind demi-urges of gaming is, I think, very wrong.