Comments on: The Sunday Papers

By: Al3xand3r

Al3xand3r — Tue, 27 May 2008 23:40:52 +0000

And for the record I also disagree with the need for “abstract” graphics for a turn based game. If Silent Storm did look photo realistic (it also had great use of realistic physics by the way) it’d still be the same amazing game, just looking even better making combat even more impressive I suppose, but hardly affecting the gameplay.

By: Al3xand3r

Al3xand3r — Tue, 27 May 2008 23:20:58 +0000

I already gave an example of a far more realistic looking game in the post right above yours. Anyway, “abstract” (I don’t think you can really call cartoony styles abstract anyway) is far from text based which was the original point I disagreed with.

That’s why I mentioned games like the original Might & Magic (not Heroes) series or Fallout and X-Com or whatever else has been a fucking awesome not-text-based but still turn based game.

Some of them didn’t look “photorealistic” (not that many games did, up to a couple of years ago) because of a lack of technology (old games) or resources (smaller companies usually work on these), not because of desired abstract elements.

By: Okami

Okami — Tue, 27 May 2008 16:31:29 +0000

The graphics of Heroes and King’s Bounty are highly abstracted, eventhough they are full of polygons and special effects and nifty lightning and shaders and all that stuff.

But now imagine a game like that using photrealistic represantations of human soldiers. That would look just silly.

By: Al3xand3r

Al3xand3r — Mon, 26 May 2008 18:11:19 +0000

Like I said it has its own appeal and charm really. Silent Storm comes to mind when thinking of something more realistic looking.

By: Pace

Pace — Mon, 26 May 2008 16:44:58 +0000

Sorry, didn’t mean to stoke that particular fire, nothing against turn based combat, but it just seems like something that would work best with some level of abstraction.

By: Al3xand3r

Al3xand3r — Mon, 26 May 2008 16:22:12 +0000

There are many graphically pleasing games that use turn based combat and are far from silly. Even older titles like Might & Magic are far from having text based graphics and were still great. Turn based combat has its own appeal and charm regardless of graphics. Some of the games I look forward to the most these days are an English version of King’s Bounty: The Legend and the release of Age of Decadence. Turn based games have offered a lot more than text for many years now, and will hopefully continue to do so for many years from now… Roguelikes are not the only place for turn based bliss thankfully (not that I have anything against those).

By: Rook

Rook — Mon, 26 May 2008 16:15:55 +0000

At least with PC games (and especially with Crysis) you can fix these things. The reality enhancement mod for Crysis really helps improve the game a lot for me, reworking your suit and the damage modelling makes the game a lot more intense but still enjoyable.

By: Pace

Pace — Mon, 26 May 2008 15:52:17 +0000

ASCII graphics are perfect for their task, in many cases – the point being, appropriate graphics which support the game.

That’s a good point. I’m reminded of one of the common complaints about Crysis, that the North Koreans took too many bullets to die. But really, it’s the same in all shooters, but when the bad guy is very realistically rendered it starts to seem fake that one bullet in the noggin doesn’t kill him. That is, the very realistic graphics can sometimes highlight the fact that the underlying ‘gameplay’ isn’t realistic. (Like turn based combat; fine in text games, rather silly when seen realistically.)

By: Al3xand3r

Al3xand3r — Mon, 26 May 2008 15:27:38 +0000

Okay, my argument’s not foolproof, but I don’t think any argument is when discussing such a wide topic as “videogames”. For example, many adventure titles seem to rely on presenting beautiful or weird worlds to explore when gameplay mainly consists of clicking around with some thinking for the riddles. Still, who’s to say those games wouldn’t be just as enjoyable with “inferior graphics” but good art? Certainly the likes of the hand drawn Broken Sword or Monkey Island aren’t worse than the likes of Myst III: Exile or Syberia with their impressive 3D renders… Not to me at least…

Developers basically have to understand when they have to stop racing for technological advancement and just focus on making good use of what they already have. Oblivion would have been better if they had paid attention to their world and character and setting instead of try to make it all work with procedural generation (randomly opening crappy oblivion gates) or with that Radiant AI failure for example. Ok that’s not about graphics, but it’s just an example…

By: Al3xand3r

Al3xand3r — Mon, 26 May 2008 15:13:08 +0000

I think people have mixed up “art” with “graphics”. When discussing “graphics” as being secondary to gameplay, I’m sure most people mean technically advanced graphics. If Fallout was done with the drawings of a 2 year old which can hurt your very eyes, I seriously doubt most of today’s fans would have played through it. It did have good and atmospheric art for its time though, while using a technically outdated engine as most RPGs did back then.

Perhaps this example is wrong though, people might still associate art with graphics. I’ll bring up examples of board game-like PC titles such as teardown’s Space Hulk remake or the allegro based Hero Quest. Lovely games, with just icons and menus for “graphics”. Still enough to enjoy them.

Did NWN’s new found 3D-ness make it any better game than classic 2D RPGs? What about Oblivion, is that one better? I won’t answer these questions myself, I rest my case. Regardless of your opinion to this, you’ve made up your own mind by now. People can be so very different anyway, I just wish there were more games for every type of person instead of having certain genres and ideals disappear (only to be resurrected by indie developers! Hurrah!).

By: Nick

Nick — Mon, 26 May 2008 14:50:10 +0000

Good point about the ASCII graphics actually, I prefer them to poor graphics if that makes sense in those games. I’d rather my character was represented somewhat abstractly by an @ symbol than a stick man.

I suppose as long as I know what everything is meant to be I don’t care how shiney it is or isn’t. Function first then form?

By: easychord

easychord — Mon, 26 May 2008 14:42:29 +0000

Gameplay is closely linked to graphics. It’s hard to imagine different gameplay without imagining different graphics although an idea in one can inspire or dictate terms to another.

If all you can imagine when you close your eyes is a world that you look at through the iron sights of a gun then you will almost inevitably make an FPS. That’s unless you are as imaginative as Grasshopper/Suda51 and make Killer7 which people will complain about for bad gameplay because it doesn’t play like an FPS. Creativity in gameplay isn’t recognised or rewarded nearly enough in my opinion.