New Warhammer Online Footage, Interview

By John Walker on June 25th, 2008 at 11:07 pm.

Jeff and Paul in 30 years.

Over the years I’ve been following the development of Warhammer Online: Age Of Reckoning, I’ve noticed one steady trend. It’s the gradual subversion of the formerly calm, carefully paced executive producer Jeff Hickman into Paul Barnett‘s comedy sidekick. I blame Barnett entirely for this. That nice man, all gone strange. It’s very telling that when Kieron and I went to visit their studios in Washington DC a couple of years back, I was drawn to Hickman and Kieron to Barnett. What it tells is that Gillen and Barnett are both eccentrics, while Hickman and I are calm, thoughtful and better looking. I digress. The positive result of these personalities at the helm of WAR is seeing both sides appearing in-game. WAR is looking like an MMO that will sit down to tell you a good story, then fart in your face and run away. I stress that this is a good thing. Anyhow, point is, you can see Hickman and Barnett doing their thing in the video below, along with some new in-game footage.

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40 Comments »

  1. Stella says:

    The first video is the only interview I’ve seen with these guys but it looks to me like Barnett is the comedy sidekick.

    Or did you mean it with regards to the development process to make the point that Barnett’s ideas are having more and more influence over the product?

  2. Pace says:

    So I guess Kieron and Barnett are the “fart in your face and run away” half? Is there a reason you use that particular analogy?

  3. John Walker says:

    Because Kieron constantly farts in my face and then runs away.

  4. Kieron Gillen says:

    I occasionally just stay to point and laugh.

    KG

  5. Deadjim says:

    I have been waiting for years since they announced this when I was back at school playin the table top version…Can’t wait for this! its gonna piss all over wow too *glee!!*

  6. RichPowers says:

    Great, now I picture Kieron and Barnett as a sort of Terrance and Phillip duo.

  7. DragonSix says:

    Still no lightmaps :/

  8. neoanderthal says:

    i hope i’m not the only one who thinks the combat looks disappointingly paced. I was hoping for something along the lines of Age of Conan.
    Gods below, what a waste.

  9. weegosan says:

    I can’t decide what to make of this at all yet. I’d say most of the videos they have released should never have been shown externally as they all looked almost amateur. Graphical style, textures, combat, character animation are all stunningly bland. The way it’s talked up everywhere regardless is odd.

    Also it sounds like this RvR nonsense would screw with my PvE.

  10. Butler` says:

    If enthusiasm was the only deciding factor in making a good game, WAR would do well. Sadly, I’m not sure that’s the case.

    I still think it deserves to do better than AOC, though.

  11. Anthony Damiani says:

    Well, on one hand, they seem to have largely assimilated the lessons of WoW– rather than rebelling against them (as Guild Wars did, as Vanguard did, as wossname London did, as Conan does with the twitchy combos)– it looks like it’s bidding to be “Like WoW, only better,” which is kind of nice when everyone else is denying it, but transparently ripping.

    On the other hand, as a PvE player, this RvR stuff sounds like it could be inconvenient.

  12. Sasha says:

    common guys who do you think u are to critisize this game? these are some of the original pioneer masters of MMOs.. thed made DAOC wich was hella good.. “ripping of WoW” i’m sick and tired of you [having a different opinion to me]. if you WOULD know MMOs you would know other MMOs than the recent ones.. there are alot more than those.. Lineage 2, lineage, ragnarok, ultima and a huge lot more and they already had what WoW did.. even better but they didnt have the money for publicity so you think by [having a different opinion to me] that you can talk down other games.. ITS NOT “like” WoW ITS AN MMO .. it will always be like other MMOs because its shares the same objective, ever thought of that? no of course not, because everything is cool as long as you [have a different opinion to me].
    thanks, no offence but someone had to say this

  13. Ulnir says:

    RVR isnt just PVP.. its also PVE. so it shouldnt interfere with your PVE much at all. The developers have said that you could play the game entirely witout doing any PVP but there are advantages to “sticking your toe in the PVP water” so to speak. So evrything you do effects your race’s city and the war effort as a whole (even PVE).

  14. Okami says:

    Errr… Sasha? This isn’t Gametrailers.com, you know…

  15. Tak says:

    *fends Sasha off with a stool and whip* a LION TAMER!

    I believe the idea is that in each area, you have a ‘safe zone’. That’s where the PvE mostly takes place. If you cross ‘the line’ into the ‘no-man’s land’ then the PvP gets hot and heavy. The PvE thematically ties in to the PvP that is going on around it. For example, if the Dwarves are losing, you might be sent on a quest to gather more ore to make more armor, or kill more wolves for their pelts to make more…armor…*stumbles and falls*

    At least, that is my understanding of it. You’re never forced to PvP, but all of the PvE contributes to the RvR ‘score’. The most direct way to contribute is of course the PvP. I believe that during a stronghold capture you’re whisked off to a ‘hideout’ like location that is the PvE safe zone and respawn point and such.

  16. neoanderthal says:

    The RvR is something that actually interested me, but if the combat is like it is in the vids (you attack, wait, he attacks, wait, ad infinitum) I’ll have to pass.

  17. Tak says:

    That would suck. I recall hearing about ‘no-movement timer based’ combat last year some time, but it’s so reviled for melee combat that I’d hope they would have dropped it by now. I’ll take your description to mean that’s what the combat is still like.

    <–can’t watch the vids at work and has precious little time to at home

    Cry not for me, but with me.

    *tear

  18. KingMob says:

    Not sure what you mean by “no movement-timer based” combat, but so far as I know the combat is like WoW. I’ve seen players strafe, fast-cast and slow-cast abilities, etc. and I’m pretty sure you hit a button and the ability fires soon after.

    I believe what people are referring to when they say the combat is lacking, is that the combat doesn’t seem very fast-paced. Again, this is like WoW’s PvE but in WoW’s PvP and similar games you have stuns, instant spells, etc. going off to speed up combat and give you different strategic options. I think the issue right now is that combat doesn’t seem up to the visceral punch of AoC’s combat system, for example.
    Of course, this could be due to a number of videos from people “just learning the system” – I know in a new game you tend to just hit one or two buttons, but when you really get into an MMO the combat is on a whole different level.

  19. Tak says:

    Right right, fair enough, which is why I lament not being able to watch it yet.

    I’ve heard tell by a tester that some time last year the combat, frankly, was rubbish. Everything was an interuptable cast timer ability, like ‘spells’ in most other games. Melee are generally exempt from having to stand in one spot while swinging (indeed a good part of what makes a good melee or a great is how they place themselves for their varied attacks). That’s more what I was saying, sorry for not being more clear :)

  20. Erlam says:

    I would like an insiders story on how the combat works. It does look a little.. sad there.

  21. neoanderthal says:

    if WAR’s combat is “as good as WoW”, I’ll pass. All that timer and hotkey pressing is akin to a lounge-version of Street Fighter. This property needs something fast-paced, like AoC or even DDO:Stormreach. Warhammer demands click to attack, not click to activate your melee/spell/power timer and pray it’s not interrupted. Rubbish. If Mythic wants to steal WoW’s audience away, why not do it with something better? The world does not need a rehash of an already tired game.

  22. WyrdOne says:

    I think this game has some amazing things that WoW doesn’t offer. It blends PvP and RvR in a very interesting way. It was designed from day one so that everything you do in the game contributes towards your realm’s ultimate goal; capturing the opposing sides cities. To accomplish this goal you can actually level from 1-40 doing nothing but PvE content, nothing but PvP, or any amount of both you want. You can’t level your renown from 1-80 without doing PvP though.

    Something I thing a lot more games will suddenly have after WarHammer comes out are Public Quests. It’s like an automatic raid you don’t have to sign up for, or schedule, or gather a group of X guildmates for. You just walk into an area and poof, you’re helping to complete a multistage PvE quest with everyone else around you. The lower level PQs usually have 2 stages of objectives to complete and then a boss. The higher level PQs can have as many as 10 stages. The system automatically tracks aggro and other factors generated by each player, and then awards loot at the end with a random roll, so higher contributers are more likely to win the toss up. Each item awarded is keyed to the class that wins it, so no cool new shoulders for some class that isn’t even present. And there are roughly 300 PQs throughout the game. One of the cities actually has a bar fight public quest.

    As cool as those will be, storming a keep with catapults, batter rams, boiling oil, and 100+ players is going to be where I’ll be spending much of my time. This is what really sets the game apart. This is no Halla, or Alterac Valley. Some of the keeps are huge. And the fortresses guarding the gates to each of the six racial cities are like small cities themselves.

    If you manage to defeat your enemy at their fortress then you get to the city gate itself. Once you destroy that you’re then split off into instanced town fights through the streets. If the attackers win more of the instances they win the city.

    But the fun doesn’t end there. You then run into your enemies’ city and start setting fire to buildings, and looting everything in sight. There are some high level public quests in the city, for example in Altdorf you attack the bright wizard college and take on the head wizard himself. If you complete all 3 public quests you unlock the King encounter, the hardest PvE content in the game. It’s really interesting how they’ve interwoven the PvP and PvE content in the game.

    Each city has 2 or 3 dungeons that you can do PvE content in too. You have to level your city up to gain access to most of these. Each city can level up from 1-5 depending on how you’re doing in the quests, and PQs, and keep taking… basically everything. There are also dungeons in your enemies’ city. If they’ve leveled their city high enough to unlock the dungeon content, then when you sack their city you get access to it too. So the PvP and PvE crowds will get to work side by side. And for those of us that like to do both, I think game has very high potential.

  23. WyrdOne says:

    As for the combat in the videos that have been released, I don’t know who they got to play these characters while recording. Certainly some of them are from conventions where people just walked up to a machine and had no idea what they were doing. But even some of the official videos have everyone standing still, trading blows.

    Well, I know I’m personally not going to just stand there like a wooden post while I fight. I’ll be strafing, and maneuvering, and generally being as active as I can be. I suspect many of you will too. It will certainly vary from class to class how much you can do this, but I’ve always liked ranged DPS, and they will be able to be quite mobile.

    I think the introduction of enemy collision detection will make things interesting too. Now parking a squishy behind a tank character will actually mean something. The opponent will have to go around the tank, not just literally run right through them. And as a former WoW Warlock, no more Melee DPS running through me an instant before my spell goes off and cancelling the spell entirely.

  24. Matt says:

    This game will be rubbish because they didn’t invite me into beta. Without my input and brilliant insights I don’t see how it can work.

  25. WhiteRabbit says:

    I have been looking forward to this game for quite a while now, and have been learning all about how it works . . .

    WyrdOne gave a pretty in-depth description of why the game is awesome.

    The combat system may seem a little slow-paced, but how many MMOs are like this? Most of them. Very few have a real-time attacking system. That’s the whole idea behind RPGs. You level up and get items to make you attack faster, not button-mash faster.

    As far as the info about the combat from a year ago . . . the dev team takes beta feedback seriously. If something was wrong a year ago, they’ve long fixed it by now. The game was originally set to be released already; they are holding it back to make sure everything is just right before they release it. That’s something AoC forgot to do . . .

    Everybody compares any MMO to WoW because it was the most popular. WoW had a lot of good things. Thing is, most MMOs play fairly the same, WoW included. Almost everybody knows WoW, that’s why they compare to it. Think of WAR like WoW without the stuff you hated, like grinding and getting ganked in PvP by a twink. They have added revolutionary ideas to this game, and I suspect it’ll be a WoW killer. And and AoC killer. And a . . . oh well, you get my point.

    One more thing: about the graphics of the videos. They just barely started upping the graphics in the recent beta tests. They care more about the game being fun than how shiny everything is. I don’t care if a game looks almost realistic; if it isn’t fun, I’m not gonna play it. And, by the way, the new videos’ graphics are looking pretty good.

  26. The Discordian says:

    Epic Fail. If I want to play WoW, I will. No amount of franchise or skin changing will make this game anything but yet another WoW wannabe. Dwarves farting and dark elves dancing does not make up for hours of time watching my toon do all the things I’d like to do. No inherent skill other than the ability to shove enough toolbars onto your screen is required. At the end of the day, you can put glitter on a turd and it’s still a turd. Gussying up sub par combat and calling it RvR is still sub par combat.

  27. Cleon says:

    Many of you who claim “fail” obviously have no idea how RvR works as a PvP system. Anyone who ever played Dark Age of Camelot knows exactly why this system is far more superior than any other PvP related system ever released or thought of in any other MMO–including WoW.

    Warhammer takes all the things we love about WoW and a few other MMO’s, and then adds the things we loved about DAOC’s RvR, and then adds fresh and new ideas–especially the wonderful crafting system and public quests–that will keep us on our toes for hours on end.

    Being able to level up in both PvP and PvE is a very enjoyable aspect. Slaughtering someone who tried to gank you while you were on a mob, and simply doubling your experience for that pull is a win-win situation in my book.

    Don’t bother looking at graphics right now. They haven’t bothered polishing off the beta materials yet. Unless you have followed all of the videos and materials released on Warhammer these past few years, you’re simply not capable of understanding the overall picture that is taking place. Those of us who have followed everything can and will tell you that Warhammer is certainly not “fail” and you will regret not joining upon release when everyone else does–forcing you into a 6 month late start when you finally give up and follow all your friends to Warhammer.

    <3 C

  28. The Discordian says:

    In fact, I don’t intend to play it at all, and I’ll tell you why. Since I am, in fact, not capable of understanding your position of playing the next and shiniest thing, perhaps you’ll be capable of understanding mine. Maybe easier for you to step up than me to step down. I’ll even use parts of your argument to defend mine. Note that the following Fails are not just WAR, but WAR will do in a pinch.

    1) Fail: Click to Attack. I want a real game, not one whose engine is dumbed down to the lowest common denominator so everyone can play. If the point of the MMO is to reach the highest amount of people OVER an aesthetically pleasing world and/or combat experience, lets all play a text/turn based RPG. If your game cannot handle even a slightly dynamic response to the way I attack and not just the numbers I push on my screen, its not for me.

    2: Fail: PvP in general. While I suppose I can stretch my imagination to understand the need to click-pwn some kid from Uzbekistan, it doesn’t appeal. A stripped down, no armour bout of fisticuffs for drunken laughs, I get. Gaining any form of e-cred from the amount of hours you spend out of daylight, not so much.

    3. Fail: Releasing a teaser that’s not polished. Shoddy work may be fine for fanboys who are going to nerdgasm over it either way, but I’m not sold on a game that has been in production for, as you put it, years and still lacks a decent teaser flick. Am I supposed to want to play this game based on that vid?

    4. Fail: Taking all the things you “love” (read: come to expect because it’s been shoved down your throat and you can’t imagine anything better) and mish-mashing it into one giant Frankenstein monster of crap. Adding glitter (especially someone else’s glitter) to a turd doesn’t make it any less one. Just makes me wonder what you’ve been eating.

    5. Fail: An existing fan-base who already judges people on the amount of time they’ve been playing. I wouldn’t really care that you would, in theory, have a six-month head start on me, except for one, tiny, niggling little factotum: You and yours would never stop reminding me that, in fact, your e-peen is that much longer than mine.

    5b. Fail: 6 months of effort required to catch up to you. Maybe I don’t take this whole business seriously enough, but am I really required to spend my $15US (or £7.5) to work another 40hrs a week? I thought this was a game, not a second job I paid for the privilege of working.

    I can guarantee you that better ideas have been thought up. Search the archives here for the Love MMO for an example. An FPS, no less. You want to know why it and it’s ilk are not huge? Because crap, as long as its familiar crap, easily marketed crap, mass-produced crap, no-thought-necessary crap will always sell better than its opposite.

    I think you, sir, are simply not capable of understanding. I demand better games, and I will not throw good money after bad simply because its the next “best” thing. Enjoy Warhammer, and thank you for keeping the standard low for the rest of us.

    >-X-<
    Hail Eris!
    -TD

  29. Cleon says:

    Thank you for proving precisely why I stated, “Many of you who claim ‘fail’ obviously have no idea how RvR works as a PvP system.”

    Your breakdown commentary proves nothing more than you are making arguments over things you know nothing about. Allow me to break it down for you since I’ve nothing better to do at the present moment.

    First, playing Warhammer is not at all about “playing the next and shiniest thing.” The elements of strategy, game play, realm participation, and guild involvement is what makes Warhammer appealing for avid MMORPG guilds. Finally, we gamers are getting a game that includes the game play the player bases have been screaming for many years now. I could care less whether you choose to play it at all. Everyone has different tastes and not every gaming title is for everyone. I will certainly, however, explain to the masses exactly what you’re missing.

    When you state a game fails by using Click to Attack, then you must certainly be forgetting these are PC-based games. What you are saying is you want a First Person Shooter Role-Playing Game. You wish to just point your gun in the air and hope that your ammunition lands on a target, rather than have a target selected. That concept simply does not work well in these types of games where it takes time to kill an opponent rather than a one-shot kill. I will explain how some things work in Warhammer and help you to understand a little better.

    1) First, you don’t have to click any target with your mouse to attack. The option does exist, but you can also pick up targets automatically or with your keyboard. In addition, there are classes available which will do AOE/Cone damage which doesn’t require you to have any target at all if you prefer that play style over selecting targets. Enhancing it a step further, if you knew anything about how siege works in Realm vs Realm combat, you’d understand that when using a siege weapon, you aim your siege in a direction and hope your ammunition lands on your target. That takes skill and is as close as it gets to FPS in these styles of MMO’s.

    There’s nothing like pouring boiling oil on the heads of enemies pushing a ram into your castle doors—none of which you must click to attack. If you ever played Age of Empires, then you can imagine yourself in an Age of Empires strategy warfare in first person—that is the Realm vs Realm concept of Warhammer. You should do some more research on how that type of game play works before judging whether or not the game is for you.

    2) Next, you think PvP in general fails. I agree that most games have missed the boat here, and your argument holds water—especially for World of Warcraft, and other releases. For Warhammer, however, PvP takes on a whole new meaning. It has nothing to do with your “need to click-pwn some kid from Uzbekistan.” Instead, PvP is set up on a Realm vs Realm basis. Every kill you obtain and every fight you participate in goes toward strengthening your realm as a whole against the opposing realm. You slaughter three enemies in an outnumbered 3v1 situation, you might feel great about your achievement; but better yet, you just contributed toward your realm’s overall success as well. PvP in Warhammer is not about mindless killing for “e-peen” status, but rather obtaining honor and glory for your realm and guild’s sake—substantiating meaning and purpose. Even then the zones are divided into PvE and PvP-PvE areas, so players can level up however they wish–either by PvE or by PvP. Those who take the open-field PvP road will obviously contribute more to their realm, and will be more skilled and rewarded in the long run accordingly.

    The bottom line is simply put—Warhammer will give us a mix of Strategy, Role-playing, Warfare, Siege Combat and Community like we’ve not yet witnessed in an MMO—and to top things off, they added an incredible crafting and quest system just to take the reins a step further. Try reviewing one of the Podcasts on how questing alone works—and anyone who has “grinded” in an MMO will get chill bumps just thinking about Warhammer’s new questing alternatives.

    3) Next, you think it’s a bad idea to release a “teaser that’s not polished.” You claim that a game which has been in production for a few years should be able to provide a finished and polished teaser to appease the masses of people like yourself. What you fail to realize is that your way of thinking is exactly why other MMORPG’s have failed in the past. The failure of other MMO’s generally is caused by pushing for a release of a title before it is ready, and forcing the paying customers to provide the income needed to bring the game out of “beta stages” during the first 6-12 months of release—while the developer works on bug-fixes and content—just to appease impatient consumers like yourself and make up for insufficient budgets.

    If what you want is eye-candy over content and a “gittering turd,”, then of course you would never “play this game based on that vid.” Mythic is proving that they are focusing all of their time on quality content, and they’ll add the finishing touches on the graphics once the game itself is complete. Take Age of Conan for example—beautiful graphics and scenery, yet severely incomplete as a game and full of bugs—causing nearly everyone to cancel less than two months after release. The eye-candy only lasts so long before people start screaming, “Class balance; more content; bug fixes; broken abilities; etc, and as you put it, “fail!”

    Give the community a quality product, and then worry about eye-candy. Mythic is more concerned about having a lasting player base, rather than releasing a good-looking and unfinished product. Same holds true with any product—take Automobiles for example: Ever wonder why a Mitsubishi Eclipse costs $7,000 more than a Honda Civic, but 1 year after a new purchase, the Honda Civic has $7,000 more trade-in value than the Mitsubishi Eclipse? Quality products hold value, while poor products with a pretty wrapping will leave you upside down. The choices you make in life define your character—therefore, choose to be practical.

    4) You also think there is something wrong with combining game play elements we love into one game. Why should we gamers be forced to play 5 different games to enjoy 5 different gaming elements we enjoy, when we could have everything wrapped up in one? Your argument here simply fails the “common sense” test, unfortunately.

    So, we enjoy slaughtering 25 sailors for the heck of it, but we don’t enjoy reaching a Quest-giver NPC only to find out that he wants us to kill 20 sailors for their bandanas (which drop once every 10 kills)—while we don’t even get credit for the 25 we just killed. Well, guess what, Warhammer keeps track of what we kill. We arrive to a quest NPC with sailor blood dripping off our axe, he recognizes that fact, and says, “Wow, I see you have done well in your fight against the sailors—here’s your reward! Now, if you still feel a burning in your heart to slaughter sailors, I need help with another tribe in this other camp.” Just that questing element alone is something ALL gamers have desired for years in ALL MMORPG’s to reduce grinding. Next, add to that a fun crafting system that actually rewards you; a siege and RvR/PvP system that rewards everyone; a guild system better than any we’ve experienced to date; public quests; capturing an enemy’s capital city; pulling out attractive ideas that have been appealing to the masses in other MMO’s; and the list goes on. Tell me, please, what is wrong with giving the MMO community a game that delivers exactly what the majority of us have desired during all of our years playing MMORPG’s? Other than satisfaction—absolutely nothing is wrong with it!

    5) Next, no one is judging you based on how long you have played. My guess is you don’t have any friends to follow, so you cannot possibly understand the frustration in joining a game 6 months late and hoping others will start new characters so you have people to group with as you level your first character. It has nothing to do with an “e-peen is that much longer” as you put it, but instead making things more complicated for yourself. If you enjoy things that way and don’t mind living the solo MMO life, then by all means have at it. No one is going to judge you at all, nor would anyone care—especially if you have no friends to group with anyhow. The good news is there’s a chance that Warhammer will have grown exponentially by then, and perhaps they will be releasing new servers around that time which you can join—then you’ll have a chance at being on an equal playing field with everyone else from the start of your character.

    Next, if you are playing a game to catch up with me, then you’re failing at gaming altogether. How many hours you play is your prerogative. I could care less if you spend 5 hours or 50 hours a week playing—what matters is if when you play, you are having fun with your gaming experience. $15 per month is very inexpensive compared to other forms of entertainment. It costs me more than $50 to take my wife and kids out to a movie that lasts for 2 hours, yet we can all make characters and play at our leisure for endless hours for only $15 a month? The problem is that other games in the MMO genre do feel like a part-time job to play—leaving people such as yourself feeling defensive on such topics. What you’re missing here is that Warhammer has implemented ideas to help casual gamers and hardcore gamers alike to both have qualities they can find fun in their MMO, without their gaming experience feeling like a job. While there are character levels associated in the game, Warhammer takes your “focus” away from endless grinding and leveling, and takes you right into the core of the game—even from level 1—and provides the fun entertainment you’re paying for on an ongoing basis.

    6) Lastly, you stated you can “guarantee you that better ideas have been thought up.” If so, prove it? Is the one-man operation FPS-RPG, Love MMO, seriously your example of proof? Heck, Asda Story looks better than Love MMO. You assume the Warhammer is the same as other “crap” you’ve seen just because some of the graphic content you’ve witnessed looks similar—you have obviously not researched the actual game play. Why would you comment on something you clearly haven’t researched in depth? You obviously favor FPS games over MMORPG’s. We get it, and we understand that Warhammer is not the game for you. Therefore, don’t play it, and buy a FPS for a console or join Eskil Steenberg’s solo Love MMO adventure for a FPS-RPG feel if you like. No one will care one way or the other.

    Lastly, I am certainly capable of understanding—in depth as well. I tend to view the full picture rather than the surface. Warhammer will not be the next best thing—it will be a revolutionary change to MMORPG’s and an example of what takes place when the expectations of the MMO player-base are finally being met. I will certainly not be biased as to say Warhammer won’t have issues—of course they will, as all other games have. Eventually in years to come, something will hit the market that is even better than Warhammer—such is the progression of technology. For our current generation, though, if we want to have fun with a game that has it all, then this is our ticket.

    I am reminded of people who refuse to buy a computer because the ones on the market will be obsolete in 2 years. Unfortunately, the facts of technology-life prove that you eventually will leave Windows 3.1, 98, XP, Vista, etc., behind and upgrade to the newest version available to be on par with modern requirements. Sure, you will miss your first loves, but life will continue to move on. You can continue to live in the past, or you can prepare for the future. What you choose to do is again, your choice. No one will prevent you from walking the paths you take. Just make sure you take a road you’ll enjoy—even if it’s the road less travelled.

    Enjoy your x486 motherboard with 8MB RAM while waiting for the perfect machine to grab hold of you years down the road—I won’t stop you. Claiming that Warhammer is a “low standard,” however, is just [a different opinion to mine] — plain and simple.

    I won’t bother holding you to your statements, because it is quite evident you have no idea what you’re talking about when it comes to Warhammer other than having just witnessed a couple of promotional films released months before open beta has even started. What exactly do you expect? Check back in 5 months when they start publishing the eye candy on top of their content, and then feel free to revise your opinions. You’re more than welcome to have less fun in other games if you like when Warhammer releases. Chances are your pride will stand in the way, and you’ll despise Warhammer just based on the opinions and arguments you make today—missing out on what could have been the gaming experience of your lifetime. Once again, that is and always will be your personal prerogative.

    As a guild leader for many years online, I prefer that my guild family is happy with the choices we make. We are moving to Warhammer as a collective choice made by us all, and not because Warhammer is the “next shiniest thing” on the market. We know that Warhammer will deliver what we want. End of story.

    Enjoy, Sir.

    <3 C

  30. Cleon says:

    Oh, I forgot to mention:

    Warhammer = Win

    =)

    <3 C

  31. The Discordian says:

    One, to point out your lack of reading up on the subject at hand, I’m not a sir. I’m a ma’am to you. Way to harangue me about not researching and then miss the first line of my first comment on this thread. I’ll also skip the comparison about technophobes and late-adopters, as it was ostensibly only a remark on a perceived similar outlook than a challenge to argue about systems. Your response rankles on a number of levels, but I’m sure I had the same effect on you, so let’s not get personal. Also, either you were modded or modded yourself, so the tone has been held down a bit.

    And a final note, I am not promoting FPS over turn-based. I don’t hold any especial love for either medium, except that truthfully, my current addiction is an FPS. My previous addiction was a combination of click-to-attack and spam-clicky goodness. I don’t have an attachment to either one, except for the tendency of click-to-attack to be mind-numbingly boring.

    “When you …. better.”
    I’m actually not forgetting at all. Role-Playing, by definition neither includes nor excludes any method of attack. The virtue of a game being PC-based as opposed to console based (and yes, I am exclusively a PC-Gamer) has no bearing on this argument and will not be addressed specifically. Whether the combat style is FPS or Turn-Based has no bearing on whether it is either Massively Multi Player or a Role Playing Game. I don’t think you understand that to shoot something or cast a spell in an FPS style game, unless I am using the equivalent of a shot- or scatter- type ammunition, the ‘point-and-pray’ tactic rarely counts. I aim my weapons.

    Also, when did it become a bad thing to actually have to point your weapon carefully at your target in order to hit it? Hitting ‘tab’ hardly counts as a challenging method of choosing my next victim. Having ammunition be a concern hardly makes an argument against “my” style of play. Auto-attack in any form, whether you click a mob to start it, hit tab to choose it, or let your computer do your thinking for you is *not* a challenge. The launched siege is so far the only interesting mechanic I’ve seen with regard to WAR.

    2) Next, you think … accordingly.
    Right, well, in my opinion, your above response proves my point about a need for e-peen. If you had an opinion that could change my view of yours with regard to PvP, you’d have something something along the lines of, “PvP in WAR is not the focus unless you want it to be, and a character can have just as much fun in the sandbox of the world as he can on the front lines of a continuing fight.” Not, “But its BETTER than every other game’s pandering to the pointless need to ‘win’ in an open-ended game… oh and we threw in ways to level without that, but your character won’t be as good as one who plays the game the way we intend the game to be played.” Again, its not *what* you call sub-par combat. I don’t care if winning a war gives me the right to force the Devs to add my name to a monument. If the combat sucked getting there, RvR is just as crap, no matter who you’re fighting or why.

    The bottom line is simply put—… alternatives.
    My attack on this game is not regarding the quest mechanic, it’s the combat mechanic. I think you’ll reference and see that I haven’t said anything about grinding or questing or concerted play time except as a response to your “6-month late start” jibe. Questing is hit or miss, and if everything else were perfect, I would deal with it.

    3) Next, you … insufficient budgets.
    No, see, I play a game that was crippled by being forced into release too early. I’m not impatient, I just prefer to look at a teaser and be teased. I’d like to, as Houghton-Mifflin as defines teasing, be: “To [be] excite[d] by exposing something desirable while keeping it out of reach.” I don’t care about the release date. I don’t even need it to be of game play. A teaser should be something that makes me say, “Ooooh, I want that, even though it’s going to drive me batshit insane waiting for it!” And not, “Oh wow, if I watch years worth of podcasts and read Dev Diaries, I’ll totally understand why this should be rad!” I’m comfy as pie waiting for the game to be good, but if you’re going to defend the game against the moronic masses that I clearly fall into, please stop to realize that your people released an ugly video with boring looking combat. That is what is being attacked, not the years of insider info that may or may not actually be relevant after open-beta begins, let alone what will be relevant when the game is actually released. (read: Mythos’ recent change to Overworld that completely changed the dynamic of the game.)

    If what you want is … “fail!”
    What Mythic is proving to me is that they know that the people who are going to play this game are already sold on it. You’re doing a fine job proving it to me, too. If, as you say, Mythic is waiting to do the job right, absolutely more power to them. I respect and laud that. However, in that situation, why would they release a shoddy teaser? Those two points are at odds with one another.

    Give the …be practical.
    In fact, no, I don’t wonder why some cars are more expensive. I do wonder why people buy cars that look like every other car (except for a neat fin!) and run like every other car (except for “more power!”). I have a feeling, though, that the sticker price on WAR is like the one on new Mustangs. Its ugly, it gets crap mileage, and it doesn’t hold up worth a damn on the road, but it’s a MUSTANG so it must be cool. Also, other than providing me a chance to make a really funny come-back, your argument doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Are you saying not to judge a product by its price-tag or its ‘cool’ factor? If so, I guess we agree? If not, visions of me perplexedly asking, “Wait, what?” are appropriate. Practicality in a word war about MMOs? Come now; let’s not lose all perspective here. We’re having an argument of preferences, not reality.

    4) You also … unfortunately.
    Except when paired with your previous comment about this game being NOTHING like WoW or anything else, except for those games it IS like. You’re telling me that this game is not a copy of WoW or of SWG or of AoE or of DAoC, but that it does take the good parts of those games (few and far between though they may be) and use them to its advantage. It is either like them or it is not. I’m not asking for complete originality. I’d like it, but the genre of games is, by the nature of being a genre, sort of binding. RvR is not my gripe, I cannot emphasize this enough. RvR is intriguing, PROVIDED that the combat used to hack my way across the enemy’s lines is not boring.

    So, we enjoy … nothing is wrong with it!
    Again with not commenting about questing. I hold to my previous argument about RvR. If killing those sailors bores the piss out of me, I will hate killing 1, 10, or 100 of them.

    5) Next, no one is … basis.
    In this situation, I cannot disagree with your stated outlook. If I enjoy it, $15/month is well worth it. My point was not that $15 is too much for a good game; it is that any amount of money is too much for a bad one. Secondly, every game says they have implemented a system to make it fun for hardcore gamers and day-trippers alike, and it usually turns out to mean, “Sure, you can play part-time, but only if you don’t mind being completely alone in the newbie areas or being constantly hassled by your guild if your toon is not up to the next high-level thing they want to do.” I’ll believe WAR is different when I try it. I don’t actually mind the gap, when my 6-month lag is not used as an argument or threat against my future enjoyment of game-play. My experience with guilds has been mostly positive, and the bad experiences have been rectified with a simple checking of a “Leave Guild”box. Lastly, I’ll ignore your comments about having a guild “family” if you don’t make assumptions about my friends, or a lot more of this thread will probably get modded.

    6) Lastly, you …the other.
    No, it was an example. So, yes. Well done there. Also, in a spirit of not too much repetition, my stance on the teaser is well covered above. You do seem to care, though. As do I. If we didn’t we wouldn’t have spent so much time debating it, now would we?

    Lastly, I … travelled.
    Irrelevant. It is your viewpoint, and it doesn’t happen to apply to me. It may to other readers, but not in my case.

    Enjoy … simple.
    Almost wish I knew what was originally here. Mythic may state a high standard in the hours and hours of podcast, but the general response of the fans (“Omg, nerdgasm!”) is not one of holding them to a high standard. Else you simply would not be pleased with the image that this video gives your chosen game. This is the low standard to which I refer. On a side note, please don’t take the actual nerdgasm as an insult. I have them regularly. It is only what causes them that I question from time to time.

    I won’t bother… prerogative.
    Again, exactly to whom is this vid targeted? People who already love the game, and will no matter what it looks like or people who visit sites like RPS to see what the skinny is on new and future games? You may forgive it because you already know “the back story.” I do not forgive it, because as a representation to the general public of what this game is capable of, it is woefully unimpressive. What do I expect? A promotional video that promotes the game, not one that leaves a vast amount to be desired, both in information, game-play, and visual attraction. If WAR suddenly appeals to me through some miracle or perhaps, simply through a decent advert, then I’ll change my mind. Until then, yes, I despise it. It’s ugly, chunky, and its fan-base are by and large a mass of people rabidly defending a sub-par product that you have to ‘research’ to ‘get.’

    As a guild leader … End of story.
    Well, I hope you and, erm, your family are quite happy there, and that you are not let down by your choice.

    >-X-<
    Hail Eris!

  32. The Discordian says:

    Oh hell, time to eat my hat. The reference to it being obvious that I’m a chick was in another thread. Red-faced embarrassment much! Hate when I have a good argument and then discredit it by not checking the trivial stuff…

  33. WAR Fan says:

    Can’t play the HD version for some reason!

  34. Cleon says:

    Welcome back, Discordian!

    Well, don’t eat your hat! I will easily forgive that oversight. It’s not every day I get to debate with someone who actually has the capacity to keep up. I appreciate you taking the challenge and providing a list of cons vs my pros. My intent was to give readers the exact conversation we had. I hate to douse your curiosity, though—the moderator didn’t edit anything juicy. I basically said “a different opinion to mine,” but only worded in a different way. I’m guessing he didn’t like the way I worded it, perhaps? I don’t recall now what it was, but it was a basic generalization, so the mod personalized it to be my own opinion. To that, I will agree.

    I could tell you held a love for FPS. I never really got into those; but if indeed you like that style, I imagine you’ll enjoy the siege warfare. It was incredibly fun in Dark Age of Camelot. Even World of Warcraft is seeking to adopt it in their next expansion. There’s nothing like firing a trebuchet and watching damage just fly everywhere within the supposed safety of the castle walls.

    Targeting opponents is crucial in a game where it takes time to whittle down your opponent. The group PvP becomes more about team-work and focus-fire. In a game where you must carefully aim your weapon at your target, you need to be able to do so and make your kill right away. Imagine group PvP where your targets keep moving around dodging your fire, and the moment you do hit them, the healer heals them right away—negating your damage. Such a game would only promote AOE casters, and people would leave out of sheer frustration. The only alternative is having people die more realistically in just a few blows—but then more people would get frustrated and leave due to getting 1-shot all the time. Challenge is a great thing, but not when it outweighs the fun and intent of the game to keep ongoing customers.

    Warhammer is about war. That is certainly the intention of the game, and exactly what they encourage. While they will have lots of PvE, they integrate it heavily with PvP as well. People who enjoy PvE only will either not enjoy Warhammer as much, or else they’ll learn to realize how fun RvR can be. In any game where winning is an option, you’re going to have people declaring some sort of “e-peen” status. There’s no way to avoid that, but making the game fun in every possible aspect is a great start. It is a way to encourage (not force), players to try new things they didn’t enjoy in previous titles.

    One thing you are missing about the “teasers” is that right now, anything you see online is merely ways to keep the community informed of the content. Seeing that open beta won’t even start yet for a number of months, you cannot view these podcasts as teasers to gain new customers. In fact, what they are doing is keeping their faithful following informed and allowing word of mouth to work its magic meanwhile. I’m quite positive when the time is right within a few months nearer to beta, there will be a nice teaser that is sent out to allure all of the public in—and I highly doubt the developers or marketing team will be in the feature. They will let the game speak for itself with its own footage. The only thing this video was about is a “New Warhammer Online Footage, Interview.” It’s only part of the ongoing footage to keep people informed of content—certainly not intended to be wide-spread teaser material. Of course we are sold on Warhammer, and Mythic expects their player base to be the true salesmen—as does any company.

    The idea about the cars is that a Honda is made of quality parts and holds its value, even though it doesn’t look that great on the outside compared to the style of a Mitsubishi. Whereas the Mitsubishi looks great, but loses its value incredibly fast due to poor manufacturing and electrical issues. The same holds true for Warhammer. They are working intently on quality content, even if the currently polishing doesn’t look that great—the quality content will help the game hold its value with the player base. Games that sacrifice quality for great graphics/teasers, however, and push for that early release, end up suffering due to poor mechanics; and they will not hold their value or player base. Try not to miss the concept here—I know you have a strong intuition from reading your well-thought out responses.

    Also, I never stated anywhere that Warhammer was “NOTHING like WoW.” You merely added those words to my mouth. I said specifically, “Warhammer takes all the things we love about WoW and a few other MMO’s, and then adds the things we loved about DAOC’s RvR, and then adds fresh and new ideas–especially the wonderful crafting system and public quests–that will keep us on our toes for hours on end.” Basically, I said Warhammer was a mix of current games we know, and is bringing a few original ideas to the table as well. I’m not sure whose post you may have read that stated this misquote, but it certainly wasn’t mine. Need I remind you of your first paragraph? *chuckles* Nah, I won’t do that—I promised to forgive you. =)

    As for questing, it’s not about getting bored killing sailors, it’s simply about being rewarded for anything you enjoy killing for the heck of it. Warhammer rewards us just for killing random stuff—another unique idea, and enjoyable if you ask me.

    I’m not making assumptions of your friends, by the way—at least that was not my intent. I would try to explain the logic I was getting to, but it seems like a very touchy subject with you, so I will just leave it alone. The bottom line is, I have personally experienced playing the devil’s advocate exactly like you are right now back before WoW came out—and let’s just say, 6 months after release, I had to “eat my hat.”

    Also, of course we care! We are all tired of paying to play games that feel like jobs rather than entertainment. Gaming is our hobby and private endeavor, or else we’d not be on these boards making sure we choose the right avenue for our guilds. In my opinion, debating the topics gets us the answers we need to make appropriate judgments and decisions.

    I render you as a quality individual and well-rounded guy. Quite frankly, I hope you do choose to play Warhammer, as I know quality gamers are much desired. The one thing you’ll need to understand if you don’t have a Dark Age of Camelot background, is that most of the players of DAOC were mature gamers who loved the game for the community and RvR warfare. There was a very small population of childish and immature gamers such as those you find in Warcraft due to the interface and challenge of game play. As a result, we held an increased quality of people compared to what you find in most MMO’s, and with that said, I have high confidence in the opinion of people who played Dark Age of Camelot. Not all, but most will support Mythic in Warhammer just because of the wonderful experiences we had in DAoC prior to the Trials of Atlantis expansion.

    I hope none of us are let down by our choices. I sincerely want to find the “right” game for our guild, and remain there until we celebrate our 20th year anniversary online in Feb, 2015. We’re almost there!

    Thank you for the quality debate, Sir. It has been a pleasure.

    <3 Cleon

  35. The Discordian says:

    I think we may have officially reached the “agree to disagree” stage.

  36. Trevor says:

    I hate it when companies release fanbois before they release the game.

  37. Cleon says:

    Told me what?

    Read the entire article before arriving to your conclusion.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/239/feature/2040

    and

    http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/239/feature/2041 (Three pages worth–make sure to read all three)

    I’m very glad about the changes myself.

    Punkbusters will help them detect cheaters. This can’t be a bad thing.

    Two capitol cities will prevent the ghost towns we experienced in Dark Age of Camelot when there would be no defenders at a relic keep because there were just too many of the same keeps scattered abroad. Not to mention, it will give Mythic time to see if adding additional cities is even worth doing. I’d personally rather fight players than NPC’s when taking over civilizations.

    As for cutting classes, I’m sad to see the Black Guard go simply because I wanted a Dark Elf tank, but I would much rather get rid of it now than find myself at level 40 and playing a broken class. Not to mention, Warhammer had 24 classes reduced down to 20. That is 11 more classes than WoW has and 8 more than Age of Conan. How in the world is this a problem? If those classes were not cutting it, then they better remove them. I think 20 classes will be plenty of variety.

    The only mistake I see here is over-advertisement of those classes before enough testing went in to them–which is the only reason the customer base had any dissappointment at all. What the players don’t know, simply won’t hurt them–but since they knew about the 4 classes, of course they were disturbed.

    Nonetheless, it is easy to grab a snippet and derive whatever conclusions you may–but try reading the source first.

    Telling someone you “told them so” with only half the facts is pointless. Try again, Sir.

  38. petere25633 says:

    I think we may have officially reached the “agree to disagree” stage.
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