Flubb says:

So whose ‘assets’ are we talking about exactly?

July 7th, 2008 at 12:00 pm

Noc says:

Another relevant question: How do those fellows’ hats stay on?

July 7th, 2008 at 12:05 pm

Ross B says:

I’ve heard from places that the studio is actually people who came close to the top on the Make Something Unreal Contest. I hope that it isn’t the Air Bucaneers guys, if so, put a shirt on Her and remove the goggles, you’re making us all cringe.

July 7th, 2008 at 12:10 pm

Ian says:

@Noc: Clear plastic chinstraps.

July 7th, 2008 at 12:20 pm

martin says:

Dear Codies, just make the female character a person and not a masturbation template for some minors.

Make the outfits modable, leave a complete nude mesh in the code and all desires are satisfied.

Just take a look at the Tomb Raider or Oblivion mods.

July 7th, 2008 at 12:29 pm

derFeef says:

@ Del Boy
Just look at Alyx Vance

edit: argh ape, you beat me to it

July 7th, 2008 at 12:39 pm

martin says:

yes, Alyx is a good example for a good designed, female character

July 7th, 2008 at 12:40 pm

James G says:

What is most disapointing is how rare it is for the majority of the gaming press to call them on it, indeed a large segment of it not only fails to see the issue, but trys to perpetuate it. (PC Format’s covers are embarassing quite frankly, and thats nothing compared to some of the comments seen online) A friend in the industry was genuinely shocked when I mentioned that PCG UK will highlight particularly bad cases of misogyny in games, such as in Alec’s review for ‘The Witcher.’ (She was also genuinely pleased, being both a games developer and a feminist)

July 7th, 2008 at 12:48 pm

Al3xand3r says:

There was nothing wrong with The Witcher, it was faithful to the original stories and it was done in good taste considering the source material. It was certainly no hot coffee mod. But really, is it so bad to present women in such sexual situations? Maybe most youngsters will be surprised but women can really be much wilder than what’s displayed in such titles. Do you find that kind of woman as less of a person? Why shouldn’t she be represented in video games? I’m sure you will agree many WOULD go for someone like Geralt in such situations.

The men are also misrepresented in such games, but I guess it’s fine by all of us to think of guys like Geralt as people who just slay monsters and fuck women and find that’s a happy go lucky life but it’s not okay for the women he does that with? Whatever, really, people should grow up, not everything that gets released is meant to display the reality as it is for EVERYONE, and yet everyone runs off to judge them for doing just that.

There are some pretty strong willed women in The Witcher also, are they somehow worse because they also get it on with Geralt at some point (IF THE PLAYER CHOSES TO AND SUCCEEDS, if you find it offensive, just DON’T TRY)?

Does it really make them worse, that they appear to have sexual desires and needs that go beyond settling down with a nice farmer or whatever, getting married and having kids? Again, you will notice much wilder situations are very common in the real world as well, while I can’t say the same about the representation of men in these games.

And no, I’m not boasting, I’m quite traditional, loyal and I have to be in love before doing more. I’m not saying I’m wild like that at all, I’m just old enough (being 25 years young) to see games really don’t present anything over the top that comes anywhere near close to what you can commonly meet in real life. At least not the games mentioned here as examples of mistreating genders.

July 7th, 2008 at 12:55 pm

Al3xand3r says:

Competent? Yeah, I’m sure every man can slay 150 mutants (or other men) and fuck 5 women in a single night and we should feel we’re not worthy if we can’t do that because it’s being competent. Everyone should be a killing fuck machine with biceps and a sixpack like arnie’s or not be at all.

As for my The Witcher comments, they weren’t aimed at you, someone else mentioned it so I responded. If I can’t comment on The Witcher in this topic then others shouldn’t either.

That guy with the skin tight shirt shows almost as much as the women here. Or would you consider the woman fine if she wore a skin tight costume that showed her curves just as much as her current?

If games adhered to the boring reality and dismiss any other kind of reality that shows things the majority or the vocal majority do not do or like it when others do it, then all we’d get is The Sims games.

July 7th, 2008 at 1:17 pm

Meat Circus says:

@KG:

But women are not being stereotyped here as *in*competent.

So, it’s men being stereotyped as competent.
Women being stereotyped as competent with nice tits. She hasn’t lost anything, she’s just gained a cracking pair ‘o norks. She should be happy.

I mean, she doesn’t look like some helpless damsel-in-distress to me. She looks like a fully-empowered woman, who knows enough about using sex as a weapon against feeble-minded men that she can ride roughshod over the conventions of adequate shielding during gunplay.

July 7th, 2008 at 1:18 pm

Meat Circus says:

@Rob Meritt:

It’s not so much that Alyx is clingy, more that she’s suicidal, and determined to drag Gordon to hell with her, when he’d probably prefer a nice cup of tea and a sit down.

Former employee of Black Mesa: “No, Alyx! It’s too dangerous. I won’t let you take this risk. The mission has a 99.7% chance of you being vaporised in a nuclear explosion powerful enough to rip a hole in reality!”

Alyx: “WOO! Let’s go! And, Gordon’s coming with me, whether he likes it or not, so we gots ourselves some QUICKSAVE.”

Freeman: “Pissbiscuits.”

July 7th, 2008 at 1:22 pm

Simon says:

Have these people, this industry almost, been informed yet that all those 90’s superhero comics they liked are actually shit?

July 7th, 2008 at 1:24 pm

fluffy bunny says:

Ok, I’m pre-ordering this game now. Say what you want, but that woman looks _nice_.

July 7th, 2008 at 1:25 pm

Sax says:

Well the Graphics aren’t that stunning, especially the non-character-textures.

“Her assets” try to distract from that.

July 7th, 2008 at 1:26 pm

The Hammer says:

Dayum! They’re still using that horrific excuse for an outfit? Have they not worked out that the original sex symbol of the games industry was sensibly clothed, and not -just- a symbol of waving your meat and two veg about?

http://purenintendo.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/lara-croft-tomb-raider-anniversary1.jpg

Or, if you want to get really retro…

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/9/95/Tomb_Raider_1_Box.jpg

This, on the other hand, is just blatant, ugly sexism.

(Oh, and speaking of Alyx, I always thought the fact that she seemed attracted to you despite having not uttered a word in the game was kinda worrying, especially when it was you achieving all the tasks, and not her. She was ever so thankful, because apart from a few unlocked doors, she accomplished little.

Kudos for the model, anyway)

Oh, and telling censorship it’s gone too far? CENSOR!

July 7th, 2008 at 1:41 pm

Ian says:

“It’s not so much that Alyx is clingy, more that she’s suicidal, and determined to drag Gordon to hell with her, when he’d probably prefer a nice cup of tea and a sit down”

Is this what Gordon’s home page would be?

July 7th, 2008 at 1:46 pm

Al3xand3r says:

If you don’t like it, don’t play it really. Play games with female characters that don’t offend you. Again, does EVERYTHING have to be politically correct? Can’t we present whores, sluts, hoes, in video games when there are worse women in reality? I’m sure she’s not even that bad as a character, even if she looks that bad.

Too bad for guys it’s much harder to find a game where the male lead is not an arnie knock off with the endurance and bloodlust he had in Predator and perhaps at the same time the kindness and sensitivity of Hamlet’s Romeo.

I guess the Silent Hill games are one series with an average joe looking guy. Yay.

Also, is the outfit really the main issue? As someone mentioned already, it’s as if it’s cut out from a magazine cover. If we have it in magazines, why can’t we have it in video games? Is an outfit more important than the actions of a character? If it’s accepted in society (really, how many girls are getting photographed, and how many more WISH they did?) then why not video games? And if society accepts it, why do you think you’re right in not accepting it? You’re obviously the minority.

I’m sure we can all agree it’s a ridiculous outfit for a combat situation, and very few people here expressed finding it attractive in the least, but then again most of the game’s setting is ridiculous. Steam punk zombie post apoc? Whatever. If you can accept that kind of things, I think gravity defying boobs are plausable also. She WILL fight in that outfit and I’m sure her boobs won’t fall out of it anyway, even if they look like they should.

Would it be better if they fell out and she started screaming and covering herself? Would that be good because it’s more “real”? I’m sure you wouldn’t like it so let’s not stray off topic with silly remarks about what real boobs would or wouldn’t do if that outfit was real. Keep it to the point to have a sensible argument at least.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:01 pm

Alex says:

Anyway, not every game has to offer characters with depth and personality.

Your idea of depth and personality is a pair of big tits?

July 7th, 2008 at 2:05 pm

Okami says:

@Al3xand3r: If you don’t like it, don’t play it is such a lame argument. It’s like saying, don’t read “Mein Kampf” if you don’t like the antisemitic passages in it.

If you like your game heroins looking like hoes: No problem, nobody stopping you from doing it. But don’t get offended if other people think that it would be nice to have, you know, really sexy female leads for a change. Believable characters and all that stuff.

Believe it or not: Some of us really are more attracted to the personality of other human beeings than to their secondary sexual attributes. Of course personality is something that can be expressed through looks.

Also: It’s rather cheap to be offended by other people taking offence at the sexist portrayal of women in games.

EDIT: Ohhh.. I just noticed a few other things in your post, that I take issues with. Here we go..

Concerning mal3 leads: Yup, they suck too most of the time. But just because male leads are stereotypical macho killing machines doesn’t mean all female leads need to be whores. That’s not really an argument, you know.

But now we come to my favorite part of your post:

If it’s accepted in society (really, how many girls are getting photographed, and how many more WISH they did?) then why not video games? And if society accepts it, why do you think you’re right in not accepting it? You’re obviously the minority.

I could write a whole article about that statement. A series of articles.

1) Just because young girls are taught by the media, that it’s okay to sell their bodies and that they need to conform to some kind of ideal beauty standard, doesn’t mean, that it’s ok. America’s Next Top Model and other shows like it aren’t a sign that our society has grown more open minded, it’s just shows that in a capitalist society everything, even your body, has become a commodity.

2)In Nazi germany it was accepted that Jews have nor right to live. In ancient (and not so ancient) societies, slavery was accepted by society. In medieval europe burning witches was accepted by society, as was torture, the fact that the earth is a disc and that the sun orbits the earth.

Just because the majority of society accepts something, doesn’t make it right.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:09 pm

ape says:

Klaus: I agree, that way of defining female empowerment is in itself boyish fantasy.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:11 pm

Meat Circus says:

Mr Circus is playing his doublethink game. Pay him no heed.

I’ll get you next time, Walker. NEXT TIME.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:12 pm

Matt says:

Clearly she fights in the old Highland Manner. Bear breasted and each carrying an eight pound baby!(or in this case shotgun) It is the old Highland manner for the new millennium.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:17 pm

L.B. Jeffries says:

@ Al3xand3r

Your argument would have a lot more weight if there were more “politically correct” games competing with this. I can rattle off dozens of games that have girls in whorish outfits and are crazed agents of death in bikinis. Games with competent female leads that aren’t objectified? I can barely think of 2 that are written competently.

What you are so adamantly defending…is hardly an underdog. Does EVERYTHING have to be man-boy escapist fantasy?

July 7th, 2008 at 2:17 pm

Faust says:

Examples? Bear in mind I’m talking about fitting into the world the game has created, not into the everday world… hence why I think the Gears of War example holds up.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:21 pm

Matt says:

The lack of sensibly created male characters is also an issue. Is the masculine ideal also offensive? Arguably it is, is Gears of War offensive? The fact that over determined masculinity occurs in games is what is being discussed, the fact that almost all games are written entirely from a masculine perspective is the core issue. It is not an argument against the way women are portrayed in games.

I agree Alyx isn’t a good representation of a well portrayed women though. She is defined entirely by you the player. She wears low cut jeans and the first time you meet her you are made to follow her, the game clearly wanting you to look at her rear. Also she stares at you and is used to be a mirror, the way Alyx looks at Gordon (you the player) is with adoration, she repeatedly states that you are heroic and impressive.

Criticism is a good thing, ignoring something you don’t like is not always the best thing.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:23 pm

ape says:

Al3xand3r, notice how in one of your last posts you talk about not taking statements out of context and then immediately quote a short phrase in said manner? Good stuff.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:24 pm

Matt says:

Isn’t the point that it is not fine whatever the medium? Two wrongs not making a right and all that.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

Dinger says:

But without big boobs, what use would there be for bump mapping and pixel shaders? And rag doll physics? And dynamic shadows?

Will someone please think of the technology?

July 7th, 2008 at 2:31 pm

Tak says:

I didn’t think Aribeth was smutty. Though granted, she fell from grace, I at least felt for her doing so. So far as *action* gaming though, women get the shaft pretty thoroughly. The action side of gaming is still very much the male side full of all the mostly-nude women, large guns, and fist-pumps-while-driving-exploding-cars of a major Hollywood summer release.

Bad? Eh, no more than the above mentioned movie. But that doesn’t totally invalidate people’s complaints.

I’m waiting for a game to come along that’s *just* for the ladies to oogle over, super he-man quake or something, just for laughs at the sure to be outrageous poopstorm that will follow. Picture all the women in power armor and full of deathly grace, and all the men running around in loincloths. Does nothing for me personally but I would follow that game’s commentary closer than any I had before.

Actually, now that I think about it, WOULD we see a shitstorm about that? Or is the industry still so male-dominated that it would go unnoticed or just dismissed as ‘odd’?

EDIT: Great scots this thread is asplodin’. Nuts to everything I typed getting said before I was done typin’ it :p

July 7th, 2008 at 2:31 pm

Klaus says:

I don’t mind whorish characters when they’re done well enough. I mean, I liked Jeanette in Bloodlines. Virginia in Wild Arms 3 isn’t a whorish, scantily clad female. She’s probably my favorite female heroin ever.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:32 pm

Meat Circus says:

@John Walker:

Aren’t you concerned that she’d want to have your honeymoon in a leaky nuclear power plant about to explode or a zombie-filled abandoned military base in the arctic or something?

She’s a mad bitch and she wants you dead.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:32 pm

Okami says:

@Al3x: I’m pretty sure RPS and everybody commenting here are flattered by your presumption, that things discussed in the comments section of an RPS article lead to mandatory laws concerning the whole gaming industry.

Everybody here is expressing their opinions about the portrayal of women in games and some of us are hoping (against all odds) that someday we’ll have a believable action heroine, that manages to look hot and believable at the same time, without resorting to cheap adolescent fantasies.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:34 pm

AbyssUK says:

@Okami - Beyond Good and Evil already has a hot female lead who kicks ass and takes photographs while remaining unwhorish… why wait!

July 7th, 2008 at 2:38 pm

Okami says:

@Abyss: You are, of course, right. Jade is awesome.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:42 pm

Turin Turambar says:

So, what’s better? Sideboob vs underboob? XD

About The Witcher. I didn’t see a a very sexist game. It was almost tongue-in-cheek, you being a badass hero (with long white hair!) who bangs every hottie he find in every adventure. Not very far away from James Bond’s movies, a superspy who always get the girl in every movie , or at least bangs some femme fatale at the middle of the film.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:47 pm

gulag says:

Where was all this stink when we were all giggling over the boobie physics in the Conan MMO?

July 7th, 2008 at 2:49 pm

Tak says:

@Matt

I could see that. But what if the lead is female? What if it’s simply a case of ‘this is a fallen teacher, saved by the pupil?’ There doesn’t necessarily *have* to be an overtone of sexism just because the characters are of opposite sex. She was a well enough fleshed out character that she stood on her own without having to be the slut.

I would say if you ended up hooking up with Aribeth or the likes, then that argument would hold more weight, but just because you’re doing the saving doesn’t make her weak just because she’s a ‘her’, as opposed to a him.

The role would have worked with either gender. I guess that’s sort of my litmus test. ‘Does huge bits of armor and massive guns work for either gender’: more or less, yes. ‘Does nothing for clothing work in a gun fight’: more or less, no. Unless you’re fighting with weird ass clothes-rending guns.

EDIT: Also, Mass Effect: Gender bias or no? Characters of both genders range from the bull-headed to the admirable. Yes, the women are drawn all kinds of sexy, but so are the underwear model men.

EDIT2: Age of Conan actually ends up being one of the least gender-biased in terms of player characters (NPCs are a whole different matter in terms of how they’re portrayed). Armor is armor, and it doesn’t care if you’re a he or a she. It’s going to cover you depending on how good of a suit of armor it is. Given what the source material is though, I think they did a great job not being *too* over the top.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:51 pm

Mman says:

“Tomb Raider? Are you serious? In the first game she’s wearing short pants in the arctic.”

Peru.

And I’m going to go into this more. It’s quite similar in essence (it’s still cold and snowy), but it hints at something more; how is anyone supposed to have a decent discussion on things like this when people make flippant comments like this that show they obviously haven’t even played the games in question (or, at least, payed so little attention it essentially amounts to the same)?

July 7th, 2008 at 2:56 pm

ape says:

*applause*

July 7th, 2008 at 2:58 pm

ape says:

Al3x, they are different taboos, fitting in to a larger social context where women actually aren’t treated all that equal to men.

July 7th, 2008 at 3:04 pm

The Hammer says:

Men making condescending portrayals of other men, of the same race, creed and sexuality?

Hmm…

If I’m allowed to quote Schafer, it’s wish-fulfillment. A lot of men, or at least young folk, wouldn’t mind having huge muscles and big guns. If they find it offensive, then by buying them all like hotcakes they have a funny way of showing it…

July 7th, 2008 at 3:05 pm

Al3xand3r says:

Well there’s certainly no shortage of young women eager to show their assets on magazines (mind you not just porn or softcore tittie mags, they’re everywehre) regardless of their career (porn, singing, dancing, anything public) and certainly no shortage of women that wish they were like that also (just look at the popularity of all products and services which are helping getting them there). So that’s just as okay really. Which is, not that much.

July 7th, 2008 at 3:11 pm

ape says:

Al3x: Who owns the porn, fashion, advertisement, cosmetics, tv, movie, etc. industries…. hmm I’ll guess men.

July 7th, 2008 at 3:13 pm

AbyssUK says:

@ape
Only halve as alarming as the amount of readers the The Daily Sport has.

July 7th, 2008 at 3:14 pm

The Hammer says:

“Wish fulfillment indeed. But isn’t the fact that so many gamers want this slightly alarming?”

Oh, definitely.

July 7th, 2008 at 3:17 pm

Noc says:

Huh. I go away for three hours and I miss an argument.

Anyways, I think the problem with saying “Look at the MEN in videogames” is that while they may be idealized, they aren’t sexualized. I think the only time I’ve seen this (Outside of maybe Conan) is in some Asian art styles, with the men wearing bare-stomached armor and such. And the response to that is overwhelmingly that it looks “faggoty.” Which it does, because, well, they’re sexualized and we are the male half of the audience.

I mean . . . poses of several female characters in games could be pulled straight from Maxim. But if poses of male characters ever started being pulled from Playgirl . . . ?

July 7th, 2008 at 3:21 pm

Okami says:

@Malagate: Or play Morrowind or Oblivion, everybody’s ugly there…

July 7th, 2008 at 3:24 pm

The Hammer says:

The classic example of that, Noc, is when Blizzard buffed up the male blood-elf player models thanks to people shouting their homophobic abuse. They used to be skinnier, and that to be was a breath of fresh air.

July 7th, 2008 at 3:25 pm

Meat Circus says:

Of course, Blizzard caved in. Because to a gamer, LOL FAG is the most powerful incantation imaginable.

July 7th, 2008 at 3:26 pm

skalpadda says:

It always has me confounded that people will jump at the sight of unsolicited breasts yet be entirely ok with incredibly graphic and detailed murder and maiming, no matter what the medium. I personally have no problem with either but there’s that line where it becomes ridiculous/contrived/distasteful and I’d say that outfit is definitely ridiculous.

It’s a bit strange to promote a game with boobs when the rest of the presentation raves on about how strong their gameplay, design and story is. To me it just sends the message that it’s “one of those games”, and makes it easy to just ignore it.

Oddly enough, when trying to think of a really compelling female in a game, GLaDOS comes to mind, with her personality and dialogue expressing every level between motherly love and crazed psychotic. Perhaps not distinctly female, but eerily human.

And she doesn’t have breasts.

July 7th, 2008 at 3:29 pm

cullnean says:

lol ugly looking vidya games boobies cause agrument

im not fussed i dont really play shooters i play MMO’s now theres another kettle of fish, the diffrence in style between men and women in the same equipment is mental.

once again digital boobies LOL

July 7th, 2008 at 3:31 pm

Meat Circus says:

@Cullnean:

Do you do after dinner speaking engagements? Who’s your agent?

July 7th, 2008 at 3:34 pm