phuzz says:

“…and that’s why you should always check what temperature you’ve put your jacket into the washing machine on.”

(and why do we not get half dressed men eh? Come on codies, you’re missing a demographic here…)

July 7th, 2008 at 12:05 pm

Jaxtrasi says:

Surely, given that this is the sort of young lady who is going to be driving a motorbike up and/or along a vertical wall, gravity is far from her enemy?

Given the distinction between verisimilitude and realism, wouldn’t it would be *less* plausible in this case for someone so obviously unrestrained by fundamental physical laws to worry about wearing a sports bra?

July 7th, 2008 at 12:08 pm

Dinger says:

1972? Is there a scene with Charlotte Rampling and a giant flying head that yells “The Penis is Evil”? ‘cos I’d buy THAT.

(Now let’s see how long ’till someone points out that was 1974)

July 7th, 2008 at 12:13 pm

Del Boy says:

I’m just wondering whether a digital female body would like ’strange’ without huge breasts?!

July 7th, 2008 at 12:27 pm

ape says:

Remember Alyx? She was realistically proportioned plus she had a personality that avoided the cliché of cyberpunk tom-boy or retarded damsel in distress. So, I’m guessing Valve isn’t staffed with teenagers?

July 7th, 2008 at 12:36 pm

Wallace says:

I like under-boob as much as the next man, but jesus christ.

July 7th, 2008 at 12:39 pm

Al3xand3r says:

“I’ve heard from places that the studio is actually people who came close to the top on the Make Something Unreal Contest. I hope that it isn’t the Air Bucaneers guys”

Well, no, it’s the Damnation guys. It was a steam punk western post apocalyptic single player third person (with first person shooting) modification. Very creative setting, design and weapons marred by mediocre execution and gameplay that seemd to come from the early days of the 3D platformer genre. It looks much improved here in terms of design and possibly gameplay but the visual style has lost quite a bit of its charm and steam punk flair.

Anyway, not every game has to offer characters with depth and personality. Think of this as a Hollywood blockbuster action movie. It’s not like men are represented any better in those (movies or games) where their only redeeming quality is their masculinity and overall badassness. They’re used in the same way, they don’t have to be half naked for that. Women aren’t treated worse. They use a silly but apparently fun (?) demographic to the extreme for both genders.

You’re all just sexists for only seeing how women are apparently mistreated when the men are just so, except you find that cool. Well, other people find half naked chicks cool also so, just chill and either critique both or none at all really…

July 7th, 2008 at 12:43 pm

Dinger says:

You have to admit, it’s effective. Your eyes have been fixated on the shoulderpads for six months, and you haven’t even noticed that these screenshots bring in a new female character, with smaller boobs, and only a bare back.

I won’t be satisfied until all the women are in peasant dresses!

What do you mean, “We did that already back in 1982″?

July 7th, 2008 at 12:55 pm

Meat Circus says:

Perhaps it’s simply time to accept that, like it or no, emotionally-stunted under-sexed geekboys are the lifeblood of the games industry, and we should embrace — no — celebrate it!

Damnation: the first step on the John Walker’s difficult road to self-acceptance.

July 7th, 2008 at 1:13 pm

Albides says:

Or, in short, her costume appears to have been designed by an eleven years old.

Which isn’t only insulting to women, but insult to us (to a lesser extent), as the target audience.

“Conan, what is best in life?”

“To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and ogle the boobies of their women!”

July 7th, 2008 at 1:17 pm

Rob Merritt says:

Most women that I know that played Half Life 2, including my Mom, hate Alyx Vance. She feels Alyx is needy and manipulative.

July 7th, 2008 at 1:17 pm

gulag says:

I enjoy my escapism with big breasts. In a game with people driving nonsensical bikes up walls, why moderate?

July 7th, 2008 at 1:18 pm

Okami says:

@Al3x: I remember defending The Witcher quite vigourously here a few months ago and I’m with you on this one, but let’s not start the whole topic again.

And just because I love breaking my own rules, I want to add, that the portrayal of Geralt’s sex partners sometimes just reeks of adolescent wishfull thinking (strong, wild women with swords who take sex from whomever they want – in this case the player’s virtual representation – is such a 16-year-old-boy-who-jerks-off-to-louis-royo fantasy..) and in some cases it’s just plain sexist and exploitative (you give a starving elf girl food in order to have sex with her..).

Slightly more on topic:

Anybody else noticed, that these screenshots show nothing of their “vertical design”? Those levels all look pretty horizontal to me…

July 7th, 2008 at 1:23 pm

Meat Circus says:

@gulag:

Agree 100%. Do trivial concerns about the dignity of some polygons have any place in escapism? Especially one aimed so clearly at the aforementioned demographic with which Walker deeply wishes he weren’t associated?

I suspect the above rant says more about Walker than it does about the industry.

July 7th, 2008 at 1:24 pm

Rayna says:

Good grief, I can’t believe that’s real! It looks like something you’d see in some softcore tittie mag like Maxim! What a shame Codemasters haven’t joined the 21st century yet.

July 7th, 2008 at 1:25 pm

fluffy bunny says:

“What a shame Codemasters haven’t joined the 21st century yet.”

The 21st century sucks. I am sick and tired of the political correctness that pollutes the gaming world these days, from Duke Nukem-bashing to complaints about Laras breast size. And when people even start complaining about fantasy RPGs… sheesh. It’s gone too effing far.

July 7th, 2008 at 1:35 pm

ape says:

Is it me or are most of those defending this objectifying crap truly not aware of an actual social context outside of the escapism?

Games represent a powerful possibility for expression in many forms, and it just so happens that there are these intelligent and equal human beings called women. Now these women are just as complex as men and they also happen to represent roughly half the population of humans on the earth, more if I’m not mistaken. They also contribute heavily to society and have done so for the length of our evolution.

Many of them play games, many of them are aware that the plight for equality seems to be a pretty rough road. Maybe they would like to play a game where the only characters representing their gender aren’t relegated to traditional roles or simply cliché roles.

July 7th, 2008 at 1:45 pm

Okami says:

The funny thing is: You can create sexy female characters without making them look like whores. There’s nothing wrong with wearing outrageously revealing clothing, as long as they’re comfortable outrageously revealing clothes, that are actually suited to the job at hand.

(insert pun about hands, jobs and scantily clad ladies here)

When designing the appeareance of the character and her gear, you should allways aks yourself: Is she wearing revealing clothing in order to just show off her bodily assets? Or is she wearing something that fits the character and that a sane person would wear when going into combat and that just happens to look sexy and revealing in some places?

The problem with the girl in the screenshot is not that she looks sexy. It’s that no sane person would ever go into combat dressed like this! That outfit is neither very comfortable (look at those boots!) nor is it in any way protecting her from harm.

Ok, so she might not sweat to much with most of her torso bare, but the whole effect is kinda defeated by the long sleeves. If she really doesn’t like to wear too much clothing, why the hell does she have long sleeves?

EDIT: Talking about believable female action characters: Sarah O’ Connor from T2 comes to mind. She looks like she could hold her own in a fight, she’s not wearing to much clothing, but it seems like a sensible choice when fighting liquid killer androids from the future.

http://tinyurl.com/rnfeu

July 7th, 2008 at 1:51 pm

ape says:

Don’t forget that a knee to the tits probably hurts as much as one to the balls.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:00 pm

ape says:

You don’t have to be offended to think something is stupid or backwards.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:03 pm

Klaus says:

“I mean, she doesn’t look like some helpless damsel-in-distress to me. She looks like a fully-empowered woman, who knows enough about using sex as a weapon against feeble-minded men…”

I don’t like agreeing with feminazi’s but I have to say this is flawed. A scantily clad female who ‘knows how to use sex as a weapon’ is a cheap excuse just to have a scantily clad, sometimes whorish, female present. It can be used to explain why any female is ever scantily clad. Let’s be honest she’s just dressed like that just so people can see her boobies, I doubt there’s a feasible excuse for it. There rarely ever is.

However…
I don’t care if she’s riding two motorcycles at same time while dual wielding rifles, I’m still too busy lol’ing at her outfit to care.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:06 pm

Al3xand3r says:

“Your idea of depth and personality is a pair of big tits?”
Try reading properly next time.

Okami I’m offended they’re being pretentious and are only offended to what suits them and think the rest things are fine and not worthy of any comments in the same vein.

As for telling me what I find attractive, well, I haven’t expressed what I like or dislike sexually or in video games here in any way so don’t assume because it makes you look like [you have a different opinion]. Thanks.

Way to go for ignoring most my post and just arguing the parts which are arguable on their own but not so easy to argue in the full content which is co related and intertwined and shouldn’t be taken random piece by piece.

Also:
“No problem, nobody stopping you from doing it.”
I’m sorry but these discussions about what SHOULD or SHOULDN’T be in video games do attempt to stop things from happening. They don’t just present an opinion and one’s personal likes and dislikes, they present one’s opinion as a FACT and the ONLY decent choice on what SHOULD happen in games or whatever else as a whole.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:09 pm

Faust says:

I think the main problem here is not that in this particular instance we have a barely clothed woman in a videogame. It’s that in pretty much EVERY videogame there is a barely clothed woman is there is a woman at all. That’s what Walker is commenting on I feel.

Damnation is just adhereing to the stereotypes of the genre that are basically going to self perpetuate. People are mentioning Alyx here because she’s pretty much a singular exception in the portrayal of women. I mean look back to the Mirror’s Edge previews and look at the quite surprised comments about how the character wasn’t i) a man, ii) big breasted iii) scantily clad. She looks practical and athletic, and the problem here is that the character in the screenshot is utterly impractical, more suited to men’s magazines than a warzone…. I think that’s the main problem being placed here..

On the flipside, the men in games usually look like they belong, to a degree… even something as preposterous as Gears of War had characters that looked like they fit in, even if they were obscenely macho.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:16 pm

Al3xand3r says:

There are many more games with sensibly created heroines than sensibly created heroes. Check out more or less every adventure game with a female character or any PC RPG (non MMO) which allows you to create a female character, or many other types of games such as Half-Life 2, Portal, Tomb Raider (and to think it was called sexist, now it’s presented as having a decently clothed woman LOL). Also JRPGs like Grandia, action adventures like Shenmue, Action RPGs like Zelda, survival horror games like Resident Evil (not sure if any had hoes, but many didn’t) and many more. If you can only think of 2, you haven’t gamed enough to comment on what’s the (bad) standard in video games.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:19 pm

The Hammer says:

I’d also like to raise the issue that accusations of political correctness are misplaced. If anything, this is social correctness. This has nothing to do with forcing people to make games which adhere to their opinions, or changing the law for that to happen. This is about developers getting a bloody clue.

@Al3x: I do believe there is slightly more understanding from the general public now about computer games than there was when Tomb Raider was first released. It was more of a kneejerk reaction of a female character with breasts being in a videogame – this was still the dawn of 3d graphics, you understand – than what she was doing in that videogame.

I think ZP’s review of Anniversary, with the comparisons of Anniversary Lara and original Lara were pretty on the mark too, in thw way she responded to flirtations. Coyly responding to them or going all STFU? There’s an extreme there, and it isn’t the former.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:22 pm

AbyssUK says:

Am with Meat Circus, if its fine for the film/tv industry to make films/programs for a target audience then its fine for computer games. If a sex and the city the game contained a semi-naked Fireman as a playable character then the universe would be in balance no ??

July 7th, 2008 at 2:27 pm

L.B. Jeffries says:

@ Al3xand3r

Way to insult how much of a gamer I am than stick with the issue. What the hell though, lets say there are 6. 7. Whatever. You’re never going to convince me that there aren’t a helluva lot more man-boy games out there than ones with mature, competently written female characters.

Every single character you named either does not talk, is a damsel in distress, or wears ridiculous outfits in combat.

Tomb Raider? Are you serious? In the first game she’s wearing short pants in the arctic.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:30 pm

ape says:

Sadly, no. Men are already seen as dominant.

Not many people starting protest groups against the objectification of male strippers. The taboos on women are different than tose on men, especially in regard to sexuality… hey, it’s a patriarchal world.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:31 pm

AbyssUK says:

I’d also like to add to Mr Walker list of good female characters the lead role in Beyond good and Evil and the lead role in the Siberia games both beautifully done.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:32 pm

The Hammer says:

Abyss, that’s a “you too” fallacy if I ever saw one.

“Johnny stole a lollipop, so it’s fine for me to be doing so!”

Also, watch a few television dramas. I think there are far, far more believeable female characters in them than there are in videogames.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:32 pm

Matt says:

The feminist reading of Aribeth would be. Aribeth was the fallen woman who could only be redeemed or damned by you! If you assume the male is the player then she falls neatly into a particular kind of objectified image of a woman, one who falls because of her loss of a man meaning she is weak and can be redeemed by a man.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:34 pm

ape says:

Actualy, I am hoping for ugly characters too. Especially ugly protagonists.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:37 pm

Vivian says:

@Abyss UK

Target audience in this case being wankers, literally? The problem with massive fake tits is that if you’re unsophisticated enough to let your sex-drive be spoofed by such crude naffness, then its likely that you’re stupid. Imagine a cow with udders half the size of its abdomen.
I mean, thats not even what tits look like. Thats what silicon balls look like. They’re perfect hemispheres, for flips sake.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:38 pm

Klaus says:

Exactly. That was my problem with Aribeth, she’s a paladin! A divine servant of a god, and not just one of those weak, useless gods.

There’s also Bastila in kotor, who I refer as Aribeth2. Another pitiable ’strong female’.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:39 pm

AbyssUK says:

@Vivian – hey I don’t do/like the big fake titties I just don’t see why people shouldn’t be able to do the big fake titties. Like I’ve been saying games exist with good well proportioned female roles too you know.

And yes the majority of gamers are stupid, thats why this game will do well and put food on codies table.. they know this thats why they have done it.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:43 pm

Meat Circus says:

@AbyssUK:

At core, that’s the root of the problem. A large majority of gamers are morons. This offends the RPS hive mind to know that they work in an industry widely and correctly regarded as being full of idiots, so they pretend that if we cover up all the outward signs of gamer idiocy, suddenly they’ll all grow 50 IQ points.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:46 pm

ape says:

I don’t think many people are saying there is no place for this in games. It’s just that catering to the lowest common denominator at the stage where games are is probably not a good idea if the medium doesn’t want to end up like comics.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:48 pm

Al3xand3r says:

Walker, are those fat men that often the good guys, or important characters, or even the main character? I can certainly think of many ugly women in video games also, but they usually aren’t important to the game either. Not to mention such male characters would still hardly be what the average adult male can corelate to, especially if they’re just there for comedic value like old 2D adventure titles.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:51 pm

Klaus says:

I’m fine with all that, I just get a bit annoyed when people attempt to justify it. Just call it wank and move on. The worst is watching the knuckleheads justify something like DoA Beach Volleyball.

“Uh, they’re at beach. That’s why they’re dressed like that.”
“They feed each other fruit because they can.”
“It’s just ladies on beach, ladies undress in front of each other all the time”

July 7th, 2008 at 2:54 pm

Tak says:

DoA Beach Volleyball is indefensible as anything other than fan service. If someone tries to hold a position other than that, they’re just being a wanker, to borrow the phrase.

So called fan-service being defensible or not as a whole is entirely different, but doesn’t appear to be what’s up for debate here.

July 7th, 2008 at 2:58 pm

Al3xand3r says:

Well Walker, I think they’re more similar issues than you make them. Both adhere to the main stereotype of each gender and take it to the extreme. It just happens it’s not the same stereotype, but it’s still just as offensive. Does being about sex and character rather than character and physical form make it all that different? It’s still mistreating a gender.

July 7th, 2008 at 3:01 pm

ape says:

Wish fulfillment indeed. But the fact that so many gamers wish for this is rather alarming.

July 7th, 2008 at 3:10 pm

ape says:

Wish fulfillment indeed. But isn’t the fact that so many gamers want this slightly alarming?

July 7th, 2008 at 3:11 pm

Malagate says:

@Ape: “Actualy, I am hoping for ugly characters too. Especially ugly protagonists.”

Go play Arx Fatalis, you can choose the character’s face and one of them is really ugly, always my first choice.

I’m just waiting for a game where you can finally have a gunfight between people only wearing thongs and nipple-tassels. Where else but in a video game could you have such silly things?
Also I find those describing the female clothing in such games as “whorish” and the phrase “slut” to be sexist in their own special little way, as that brings about the idea that a woman dressing up to willingly seduce men for pleasureable sex is Wrong and Immoral. Not a very 21st Century notion, especially considering as many men who do the equivalent are lionised. Of course this depends on how the character is represented and for what purpose, if it’s purely eye candy for using tissues then that’s not quite as woman’s liberation as representing a character who is open-minded or sexually liberal.

July 7th, 2008 at 3:16 pm

Daz says:

That picture made my tummy go funny. I’ve not had sex for a while, though.

July 7th, 2008 at 3:19 pm

dhex says:

this may be a bit pat, but isn’t this basically all comic books’ fault? having ridiculous adventures in half an outfit and all that? the omnipresent whiff of the v-card and stale sweat?

on the other hand, this is a company called “codemasters” so…yeah.

“are you guys any good at coding?”

“good at it? we’re fucking *masters*, dude.”

July 7th, 2008 at 3:23 pm

Klaus says:

Even if the women have a myriad of products getting them to their ‘utmost quality’ the difference of the wish-fulfillment in games is that the handsome male lead usually has some poor lady wanting to hop down his pants. Most of this wish-fulfillment seems have a requirement to objectify women.

Looking at game above, the men look handsome and macho *and* they have that scantily clad female trailing with them which makes them even more macho. That is wish-fulfillment to the max, me thinks.

July 7th, 2008 at 3:24 pm

cliffski says:

even forgetting how silly and infantile this makes the game look, has it not occurred to them that a fair chunk of gamers are people my age, married, or living with their real life woman, and who just wont buy a game if it means lots of disapproving looks or sarcastic comments from the other half?
I’m ashamed to be part of an industry that resorts to such tragic attempts to get attention.

July 7th, 2008 at 3:25 pm

Noc says:

Also: there IS an important point here, and it’s that theres a tendency to equate “not sexist” as “sexless.” There’s nothing wrong, I believe, with having female characters be sexually confident. But for example, in the context of THIS game: they aren’t going club-hopping, they’re going out to kill people. Choosing that sort of clothing entails prioritizing being eye candy over staying alive. Which, well, doesn’t speak so much for their competence and professionalism, and renders the character as nothing but eye-candy. And it’s the “Nothing but eye-candy” bit that’s the core of the objection, not the fact that they’re looking attractive all.

July 7th, 2008 at 3:26 pm

Meat Circus says:

@Noc:

I think that the men in Gears of War *are* sexualised. The absurd homoerotic overtones behind GoW have been much commented and ridiculed, of course, but they’re very real.

Sexualisation of men in games tends to be more subtle, because it has to be viewed through the developer’s own repression, sexual frustration and self-revulsion at being secretly turned on by burly men, but it’s still there, and in games like GoW, pronounced.

Marcus Fenix: bear icon.

July 7th, 2008 at 3:31 pm

Shanucore says:

“However, you simply cannot conflate this issue with their being presented as nothing but sexual objects. Their role in the game is not equivalent. They are generally intended to be power fantasies, allowing the male player to realise his inner beefcake. The barely dressed woman in her tattered bra and panties we encounter is no one’s power fantasy, but instead an objectified presentation of a sexual offer.”

Comments like this are one of many reasons why I love RPS. Good thread, provided your reading comprehension exceeds that demanded by a pack of Top Trump cards.

July 7th, 2008 at 3:33 pm

Okami says:

@MearCircus: If Marcus Fenix is a bear icon, then what is [insert any JRPG male lead here]?

July 7th, 2008 at 3:34 pm

Klaus says:

“Also I find those describing the female clothing in such games as “whorish” and the phrase “slut” to be sexist in their own special little way, as that brings about the idea that a woman dressing up to willingly seduce men for pleasureable sex is Wrong and Immoral…”

Eh, I’d still call it whorish if man did that as well. Jeanette’s outfit in bloodlines is indeed whorish and her goal seems to be just to sleep with anything that moves. And this is another issue I have, let’s just call a spade a spade. If anyone wants to be a slut, that’s fine, I refuse to get all pc and call them sexually liberal people.

As for ‘faggoty’, take a look at Magna Carta for the PS2. I thought Calintz and really all the males fit in that role well. You can see his hips because his pants have huge holes in the sides. I was surprised, it was more than I wanted to see but I grew to accept it, after all the women in that game have huge breasts. Equality??

July 7th, 2008 at 3:36 pm

Jaxtrasi says:

The female characters in the Resident Evil series are, on the whole, highly sexualised. There are a couple of debateable exceptions. (Someone mentioned Resi as an example of female characters done non-sexually, earlier.)

Silent Hill 2 is about the most powerful sexual-not-sexualised game you could play. It has a heavily sexualised female character whose role is a to be a mysogynistic male fantasy, and that’s *part of the plot*, where she is contrasted with the other female characters, all of whom are profoundly non-sexualised (again, part of the plot).

July 7th, 2008 at 3:42 pm

cullnean says:

@meat circus

yup give max clifford a bell reasonably prices and lots of stories that start “during the war”

also for sexualised men look at “clive barkers undying”

they gave him concept art and he told em to come back with a lead that he would like to fuck!

also as an ex squadie some of the best soldiers i knew looked like sacks of potatoes with a rifle straped to them but them boys could shoot and had the endurance of a god

July 7th, 2008 at 3:48 pm

Ian says:

The fact of the matter is, there is a perception (which probably isn’t far off the mark, truth be told) that whether we be reading a book, watching a movie/TV show or playing a game, we want our heroes and heroines to be pretty.

In many cases it’s most acceptable to be a little less photogenic and desirable if you’d do the decent thing and let your character be a Rincewind or a Guybrush, the bumbling, incompetent sort. I can’t off the top of my head think of too many examples of the comedy, hapless sidekick being one of the beautiful people.

July 7th, 2008 at 3:52 pm

cullnean says:

@jaxstrasi

also a tight ass i would imagine

July 7th, 2008 at 3:55 pm

Meat Circus says:

@Ian:

That’s an American disease. In the UK, we seem more prepared to tolerate a certain degree of ming in our actors and actresses.

I think the disease came to a head with Heroes, a programme in which everybody was just so damn good looking, it seemed to shatter the willing suspension of disbelief.

July 7th, 2008 at 3:56 pm

Ian says:

@Meat Circus: That’s probably true to an extent. But even the ones who you probably would kick out of bed in the morning still rarely have a comedic foil who’s a hottie. We wouldn’t want to suggest the fuglies could be as competent than the poster-folk now, eh?

Let’s be honest, the world of celebrity has shown us there are at least as many thick-as-pigshit lookers as there are people who are that thick and half as attractive.

July 7th, 2008 at 4:06 pm

Mike says:

Perhaps Codies could redress the balance somewhat by making this chap into the hero?

http://www.b3ta.com/board/8516803

Looks like similarly sensible adventuring attire to me…

July 7th, 2008 at 4:11 pm

cliffski says:

and on the topic of doctor who, its notable that he has to have suppressed desires to fuck his assistants. he never felt that way about roy castle, Bernard cribbens or the guy who played harry or adric (sp?)

Bah

July 7th, 2008 at 4:16 pm

ape says:

Now male stereotypes are another matter. Sadly they reflect the inner anguish of action game devellopers and certainly the plague that are focus groups.

and there goes my gag reflex.

July 7th, 2008 at 4:18 pm

Jaxtrasi says:

I’m really struggling to think of “decent” female characters under this working definition we’re using. Put me in the “Alyx is a creepy fantasy” box. There are a lot of female characters who aren’t remotely feminised, but I’m not entirely sure they count; Alex D from Deus Ex 2 springs to mind, because male Alex D and female Alex D are essentially the same character with two different skins. They both wear a downright tasteless leather getup and have similarly comic sexual lines in about two places in the game.

Fall-from-Grace and Annah are just as much sex objects as Elexis is. They’re just much, much better written, but no more well-rounded as characters when we’re looking beyond their role as sex objects.

There’s New Lara. She definitely counts. She’s obviously overtly sexualised, still, but she’s also confident and assertive in a more-than-just-wanting-to-be-the-one-on-top sort of way. (Shame on you, Lilith!)

The funniest example I can think of is the female love interest in Far Cry. I assume she’s supposed to be enticingly sexualised, but for some reason they decided to model her face on Christine Hamilton. The result is something that reads like a deeply disturbing indictment of the objectification of women. A lot like Window Licker.

Presumably adventure games are rife with well realised remale characters. Cobbett would know better. Is that a target audience thing?

July 7th, 2008 at 4:19 pm

Jaxtrasi says:

I seriously couldn’t sleep the first time I saw that video. So maybe Christine Hamiltonface isn’t as bad.

July 7th, 2008 at 4:24 pm

Cargo Cult says:

Judith Mossman. *SWOON*

July 7th, 2008 at 4:33 pm

dhex says:

Men are either gun-toting muscle-laden supermen, or fat whiny nerds.

that’s generally how it works, no?

July 7th, 2008 at 4:59 pm

Feet says:

I bet she can pick up wifi networks with those nipples.

July 7th, 2008 at 5:07 pm

cullnean says:

@feet

nah that’s just kevlar pads, who the hell goes into battle without kevlar these days………apart form the british

July 7th, 2008 at 5:14 pm

Ian says:

Was he linked because he’s a good actor, because Queer as Folk was also written by Russel T or both? [/off topic]

July 7th, 2008 at 5:27 pm

Meat Circus says:

@Ian:

That, I don’t know. But he *is* a good actor. It certainly looks to me like Davies has a proclivity towards employing actors he’d like to fuck, but I suspect there’s nothing unusual about that in Tellyworld.

July 7th, 2008 at 5:33 pm

Klaus says:

lol Tak, with the last I was envisioning some guy off of a reality show in which he’s 30 going on about awesome his muscles are, then starts howling at the moon and throwing up the devil horns? I dunno, the things those kids do with their thumb and pinky finger. There’s also older men who get shit faced drunk and throw themselves through walls. Someone has to tell them they aren’t in college anymore. In both cases I think they emit too much testosterone.

Lara Croft is on the line for me, they seem to be trying at least to make her feasible. For a sexually objectified male, I’d expect a ditzy, clumsy version of Dante who is always shirtless for one reason or another. If he’s less than competent and you wonder about the point of character then I think it would work.

July 7th, 2008 at 5:44 pm

phuzz says:

Have we got more than a few names on the “female video game characters who aren’t portrayed as bimbos” list?
To which I’d add, one or two Final Fantasy characters, (some of the time), and maybe Midna from the recent Zelda, but on PC? Nah, I’m stuck after Alyx pretty much.

This whole issue might seem a bit academic and overly PC to some, but a hypothetical writer who can write a good strong female character, would probably be able to come up with a decent plot for the rest of the game. Something too many games are lacking.
So, by pointing out the obvious lack of imagination in the above picture (”just make her breasts bigger and the jacket smaller, that’ll do”), hopefully we’ll inspire someone to put some more bloody effort into game design.
can but hope eh?

(and while we’re on the subject, even this straight boy thinks David Tennent is hawt!)

July 7th, 2008 at 5:51 pm

Phil says:

@Klaus, Strangely Imajica does leave you with the strong impression Clive Barker fancies Christ. And the Virgin Mary. And himself. At the same time.

Clive Barker’s cool.

July 7th, 2008 at 6:01 pm

Pseudonym says:

There’s Cate Archer, who is very sexy, but also extremely competent, and the protagonist of a first person shooter, a genre that is, as previously mentioned, seriously lacking in female role models.
That game also made fun of objectifying males with the american spy character, whose name escapes me.

July 7th, 2008 at 6:05 pm

Dolphan says:

“God, this thread’s got me listening to the Indelicates.

KG”

The number of times since I got that album that I’ve felt like holding people down and forcing them to listen to ‘Our Daughters Will Never Be Free’ on repeat is quite staggering.

@The thread in general:
Being opposed to the objectification of women is not political correctness. It’s feminism. Political correctness means taking that line just because it’s the only politically/culturally acceptable in the society you’re in. You’re not being politically correct if you actually think it’s wrong/idiotic, and shouting ‘political correctness’ whenever anyone objects to anything on anti-sexist/racist/homophobic grounds is missing the point.

July 7th, 2008 at 6:11 pm

Chemix says:

If men can be big burly masses with arms like giant vein-y penises with little visible bone structure or elbow (Gears of War), I don’t see the problem with buxom female characters. Every time you see a scantly clad female people yell (exploitation), whereas every giant muscle man is met with little of the same complaints.

It’s a video game, have fun with it, and lets hope that there’s some interesting physics too.

July 7th, 2008 at 6:15 pm

Phil says:

Following a link on the Dragon’s Age thread I found this;

“We’re aiming for a Mature rating, so we’re not avoiding any mature content if it serves our purposes — but neither do we intend to dwell on it or use it in a gratuitous fashion. If a whorehouse is called for by the story, there will be a whorehouse, and it won’t be just to see jiggly bunny-suited women bouncing about the bordello.

And if there is, we’d have to make sure there are jiggly bunny-suited men bouncing about, as well. That way at least we’d be equal opportunity panderers.”

Bunny-suited men – the solution to sexism in games?

Edit- It’s from a Bioware rep, incidentally.

July 7th, 2008 at 6:21 pm

Okami says:

You know, when game developers create sexy female protagonist with highly sexualized outfits, it still boils down to group of men being honestly convinced they have a say in how women should be dressing.

See what I did there?

July 7th, 2008 at 6:31 pm

Dolphan says:

@Tak

They’re relatively new, debut album just released. A few songs on youtube I believe.

July 7th, 2008 at 6:35 pm

tmp says:

See what I did there?

You have repeated my point without really understanding it?

@the Hammer — i’m rather saying that making the issue to be “ohnoes revealing clothing = bad, it’s 21st century now” isn’t really advancing it from the original “revealing clothing = boner hence good” standpoint. It’s just basic flip-flop that still preserves the underlying mindset. The advancement imo would be adopting attitude similar to one people currently apply to men attires. That is, “loin cloth or kevlar suit, who gives a fuck”.

July 7th, 2008 at 7:03 pm

K says:

How do you know that’s not a male character?

July 7th, 2008 at 7:07 pm

tmp says:

Tmp, it breaks the immersion. I can’t very well play that game seriously without laughing at her ’sexually liberating’ design. It’s unnecessary and distracting.

What immersion; are you saying if it wasn’t for pair of gravity-defying tits, you could “seriously and without laughing” play the game where you ride four-wheel bicycles up the vertical walls? In the world where the Union rocketman fight burly machinegunslingers in Steampunk Temple of Elemental Evil?

Yes because, people are going to respect Margaret Thatcher in a miniskirt and tubetop. In the real world we are judged on such things

Hence my comment about the 21st century attitude that really ain’t…

July 7th, 2008 at 7:14 pm

Cedge says:

Wow. So, this is a writeup complaining about a tits-out female game character, lamenting the designer’s lack of endowing their character with any dignity. And it even includes the thought-provoking observation about how impractical such an outfit is for all the running-and-gunning and rooftop-jumping the wearer will be engaging in!

This post counts as a major strike against my confidence in being able to rely on RPS for anything remotely resembling original thoughts and commentary about videogames.

July 7th, 2008 at 7:22 pm

Phil says:

@Cledge – I disagree, this has to be the only popular gaming forum on net where the writer could even ask the question without being accused of being a ‘fag’ by a gaggle of 13 year old Texans.

The perceived strength of the 13 year old Texan demographic is, of course, part of the problem.

July 7th, 2008 at 7:30 pm

St. Andrew says:

to the eye-rollers and deriders, i should think that the ’solution’ would lie in making a point to play & purchase those games with characters and plot-devices which meet your standards of social responsibility.

BUT LET’S BE HONEST HERE, we all know plenty of real-life women whose attire is often situationally irrational if not outright absurd.

maybe this chick reeeeeally wanted to wear the private-label Hedi Slimane top she’s had laying around, and didn’t really give much consideration to what she’d be doing later in the day..

July 7th, 2008 at 8:02 pm

Tak says:

“maybe this chick reeeeeally wanted to wear the private-label Hedi Slimane top she’s had laying around, and didn’t really give much consideration to what she’d be doing later in the day..”

I dated a girl like that once, and while it was fun to always draw jealous looks, it really just resulted in a lot of me being very cold, and her having my damn nice jacket. Gladly, that’s a thing of the past now.

And Cedge, join in the convo. This is a great place generally speaking, once you get past the fact that it’s full of Brits :p *flees from the wrath*

July 7th, 2008 at 8:12 pm

dhex says:

the brits thing is only a problem when trying to parse slang like “bummed.”

July 7th, 2008 at 8:16 pm

Trooper6 says:

There is a difference between being a subject and being an object.

Men tend to be presented as subjects and women as objects.

Yeah, men are stereotyped as being strong, brave, muscular, capable of being in charge…but those aren’t considered bad things by our society and the more you live up to them, the more you are rewarded. The stereotypes of women are mainly that they are not people in and of themselves…but that they are objects for men to look at…and that is not going to make a woman president or get her any real power or respect in this society.

Sure, we can see a lot of women who put themselves on magazine covers as objects…that doesn’t mean women enjoy it…it means that women who don’t conform don’t get the work. Look at all of those TV shows where the sort of average dumpy guy is married to the smoking hot model…because average women don’t often get jobs in Hollywood. You don’t have to be Fabio to get a job in Hollywood…there are lots of jobs for you. It is really hard to get a job in Hollywood if you don’t present yourself as an underweight unempowered object. Similarly, there are quite a lot of games where male protagonists aren’t steroided out hulks…almost all of the gazillion World War 2 titles for example.

Anyway, the real point of this post is to address something else that was commented upon. People saying that it is just as wrong to not let women be sexy–that we shouldn’t be sex negative. Women certainly can be sexy…but are women allowed to be sexual subjects. Most of the time they aren’t…they are just objects. In my experience teaching music history, when I present my students with women who are sexual subjects…a number of the guys who aren’t used to it get really nervous really quickly and the women look surprised to see something they often hadn’t seen before. Often not surprisingly, women who were sexual subjects often had more trouble with censors than ones who presented as sexual objects.

Anyway, here are some examples. Sadly, most of the examples of sexual subjects are way old. Says a lot about our current situation. So first, a classic example of a sexual object.

Brittney Spears, “Baby one more time”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_bsniYwSaWg
She is dressed and presented in a way to make her an object of sexual desire, but not presented as in control of her own sexuality. She is regularly presented with shots where the camera is above her, which gives a feeling of disempowerment. Plus the lyrics emphasize her lack of power and control…the male listener is reassured of her sexual availability and his power over her.

This can be contrasted with (going backwards in time for those who want to avoid the old stuff):

Peaches, “Set it Off”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qlmlaSwjfv8
While she is certainly scantily clad, she is certainly a subject and not an object. The camera often films her from below, emphasizing her power…plus she morphs to become less sexy from the viewer…but she herself continues to have her sexuality.

Betty Davis, “Nasty Gal”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iDvvQq4leoo
Marlene Dietrich from Morrocco
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_oNkwYQkoEw
Sophie Tucker…I believe the song is called, “Only the Right Kind of Man Can Do Me Wrong”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JM77L051XEg
The Amazing Mae West, “I Like a Guy What Takes His Time”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dCHlz2iz-RQ&feature=related
(This clip is very long…the first 3.5 minutes give a sense of her Vegas stage show from the 1950s. You can also check out this heavily censored of the same song:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tjG1xeiwjb8)

July 7th, 2008 at 8:28 pm

Chris Keegan says:

Well your very right to post this,

Its time games started to try to influence other creative media instead of aping off forms of the lowest common denominator culture. Games can influence the outside world such as the great pixel art we get from eboy that is clearly influenced by Will Wrights Simcity. Its great to hear Will Wright has/is collaborating with Brian Eno for Spore. We need Eno’s in the games industry. Games exist inside there own space to much. The music industry has all sorts of counter culture types that work with the mainstream and so should games. There are so many great graphic artists out there that would make great character designers.

How many games contribute to culture outside of the games world itself?
Not a quarter as much as film or music do. I guess this shows that games are still very much in there infancy i hope. When they start to stimulate debate outside of the game world then we are laughing.

Its embarrassing some still use Baywatch as a source of inspiration.

July 7th, 2008 at 8:56 pm

EyeMessiah says:

Afaic the problem isn’t so much that making your female lead characters look like they stepped off the cover of Nuts isn’t disappointingly obvious and juvenile (though it is), its that gaming in general often seems like it struggles to do anything different.

I’m not overly worried by the ten trillion films that come out every year with bimbo female leads because there is a fairly constant, if some what limited stream of “high-brow”*1 films also coming out that try do something different with their female characters. I don’t think ‘Y tu mamá también’ would have been a better film if the most notable thing about Luisa had been that she dressed and posed like the Damnation chick*2. There are different ways of dealing with female characters. Nuts is one way. I think gaming needs to experiment more with some other formulas.

Don’t get me wrong, I am all for more sex in games, just provided its more like ‘Y tu mamá también’, and less like Nuts – there is more than enough Nuts out there already. And also Nuts sucks gay balls compared to internet pr0n.

*1 Pinch of salt
*2 Maybe the Damnation chick will distinguish herself in other ways? Who knows… I’m not hopeful, at all.

July 7th, 2008 at 9:53 pm

Fumarole says:

Anyone else think of this?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Stripperiffic

July 7th, 2008 at 10:08 pm

EyeMessiah says:

Nuts, nuts, nuts.

@Alyx haters, sure she is a *bit* obvious, but you’ve got to start somewhere, and surely she represents a decent start.

And re. her apparently having the hots for gordon, lets see how that plays out. I am hopeful that valve can do a decent job of managing their relationship without it becoming too cringe-worthy.

Hell, on the off-chance that the whole thing (by thing I mean the “romantic” subplot) turns out to all be in Gordon’s mind and Alyx isn’t at all interested I’ll even be impressed. Maybe there is some other guy she hasn’t had time to mention? But in that case I will require the last level of HL2 EP26 to be a crazy climactic-race-to-stop-the-wedding level with Gordon hellbent on disrupting Alyx’s nuptials. Ideally with another resonance cascade.

July 7th, 2008 at 10:13 pm

Dolphan says:

Umm, way to go wildly speculative, not to mention seeming to confuse patriarchy and the exploitation/objectification of women with the repression of sexuality (linked, but certainly different).

July 7th, 2008 at 10:30 pm

EyeMessiah says:

@Chemix
“This is an ACTION game based in a steam punk wild west that has robots in the 1800s, motorcycles, dual revolvers, etc. etc. this isn’t meant to be taken seriously.”

Like I said, its not disappointing just because its an obvious, juvenile way of rendering a female lead, but because its an obvious juvenile way of rendering a female lead adrift in an ocean of other games with female characters which are also rendered in an obvious, juvenile way.

IMHO its just disappointing to see yet another developer take the Nuts option and go down the path of least resistance, when they could have bucked the trend and tried to do something more interesting. Like I said before, if you are into Nuts then are plenty Nuts to go round. Nuts, nuts, nuts.

And before someone starts, I understand *why* all games are Nuts, and I realize that I’m just a minority with special interests, and you all can’t get enough Nuts, and I’m just not entitled to demand not-Nuts e.t.c. e.t.c.

Just because male sexuality is a bit crass (and that’s OK) doesn’t mean that it doesn’t make sense to agitate for people to make more stuff to do in between wanks.

.

@Duoae: Why do you think modern video cards are so expensive? Nowadays boob lighting requires a dedicated core all of its own. And that’s before we get on to boob physics.

Although I think boob physics is fine. I mean really its more realistic. I have seen girls. I know your not supposed to look, but honestly. Sometimes they move!

Also I like Gainax anime. Bustgunner is awesome.

July 7th, 2008 at 10:39 pm

Radiant says:

203 comments.
Right so that’s Piracy, Zombies [speeding], Valve [money] and now Boobs [glowing] on the RPS “banned from conversation” list?
Well done boys.

July 7th, 2008 at 10:56 pm

Trooper6 says:

I have another post pending…hope it comes through soon.

But for those who say, it’s just a game not meant to be taken seriously…I just ask. If a bit of flesh is all a bit of fun, why aren’t the male main characters all shirtless with pants that emphasize the unrealistically huge size of their massive packages? Why aren’t they all freeballing or wearing boxers and why aren’t we discussing the special physics of penis jiggles.

Why don’t we have men being treated as sexual objects rather than sexual subjects in the same way that women are treated as sexual objects rather than sexual subjects. It isn’t all just in fun.

July 7th, 2008 at 11:09 pm

Dinger says:

Damn Mr. White: it took something like 150 posts to get to this breakthrough. You’re right, of course. And Imessy has shown the price of returning to the early 70s, when Mr. “videogames-aren’t-art” was a prominent scriptwriter, and not writing film reviews for some Chicago paper. (But, of course, Zardoz is filmic genius that must be viewed every lustre at pain of angering the lares.)

But blather on all you like, boobies ain’t gonna further discourse so much as pacify one of the vocal elements. And the penis is evil. It shoots the seed upon the Earth that spreads the plague of men.

The gun is good.

Somehow, Boorman got everything wrong, except how computers fit into elite culture.

July 7th, 2008 at 11:40 pm

sinister agent says:

I’ve only skimmed the comments because I am fat and lazy, but it’s a massive relief to see you gents rolling eyes and getting a little miffed about this kind of thing.

Risqué in the odd game is fine. Gratuitous, idiotic tit-on-stick festivals aren’t (or at least, should be confined to a small minority of games in the same way that tongue-in-cheek games like Duke Nukem and Serious Sam are thin on the ground). Not just because it’s demeaning to women and renders the characters lame, but because it’s goddamn insulting to any man with more than two brain cells to rub together.

And, y’know, it’s pretty stupid tactically, as well. I’ll wear armour everywhere except over my cleavage! I definitely don’t have any vital organs around there!

Also, while I am very much in favour of excellent hats, the ones pictured don’t quite match the rest of the outfits, I be reckonin’.

July 8th, 2008 at 12:10 am

EyeMessiah says:

They should really put Zed on the cover of Nuts.

That would be a fucking revelation.

July 8th, 2008 at 12:59 am

Lavitz says:

i thinks the boobs might be a marketing tool. But if this was anything real which it isn’t it would be humanly impossible to have jugs like that if your a fit women. I think they would be pretty distracting while playing the game but I think its just a cheap marketing tool.But thats been the case for ages using plastic women for marketing to attract men. Anyways i think the game looks really cool, like the character models(other then the female), weapons and the gameplay from the screens looks interesting and exciting.

July 8th, 2008 at 1:25 am

malkav11 says:

This is one of those things where I am continually torn. On the one hand, I am against the objectification of women, against sexism, heartily in favor of getting more women into gaming (which things like this tend to work against), and yes, think that such garments are ludicrously inappropriate in combat situations.

On the other hand, I like breasts. Lovingly rendered, and shown off to advantage in silly, skimpy outfits. And it’s kinda got to be in a proper game, because the mild thrill from that sort of thing (as opposed to outright porn) is not nearly enough to put up with the ludicrously pointless “play” of something like Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Volleyball.

It is indeed a conundrum.

July 8th, 2008 at 2:31 am

Anthony Damiani says:

I’m not entirely uncomfortable with this– and most of my discomfort comes from the knowledge that I’m in the privileged social position here, and I don’t want to be exploiting or dehumanizing anyone.

But games are an escapist medium, to a large extent. Many have no goals beyond escapism (and sales). Hot women in ludicrously scanty clothing firing off enormous weapons is something that triggers some very primal, adolescent impulses in members of my gender.

Obviously it wreaks hell with any sense of realism, seriousness, characterization or suspension of disbelief– but FPS is a genre where you tend to be reborn after death in 30 seconds or less. None of that is really there to be jeopardized. The whole thing is a ludicrous bloodsport violence fantasy, why is that so much more acceptable than the equally ludicrous sex fantasy?

It’s the video-game equivalent of a big greasy plate of Doritos. It’s fattening, messy, not nutritious, not cheap, and it doesn’t even taste that good when you really think about it– it’s just a bright-orange artificially-flavored link to some deep-seated part of human neurology that rewards fat intake with endorphin release. It’s junk food, but sometimes people still buy it– and even still enjoy it– because it hits us on this lowest-common-denominator level.

The imagery above is exploiting a very similar neural pathway.

July 8th, 2008 at 3:50 am

DSX says:

Great read, and this sort of debate is exactly why RPS is the best game site online.

I’m surprised no one has stated the immensely obvious: Sex sells. More people will buy this title for the the very reasons that will cause others to avoid it.

@Ape said it accidentally best “catering to the lowest common denominator at the stage where games are is probably not a good idea if the medium doesn’t want to end up like comics.”

and yet, comics have been around how long compared to video games? This *is* the future of video games. They know their target demographic. They will continue to cater to the majority.

July 8th, 2008 at 8:41 am

cullnean says:

any publicity is good publicity we are discussing a game i probably and many other couldnt give 2 hoots about.

devs 1 us o

July 8th, 2008 at 11:51 am

Mike says:

Someone mentioned the fact that she shows admiration and affection towards Gordon (you) as a bad thing, which I don’t get either. In that situation I certainly would myself, and I also find myself admiring her quite a lot throughout the games.

As far as I’m concerned, Alyx may not be excessively physically sexualised, but her constant dependence on Gordon and near constant congratulation whenever he pulls a lever or smashes a door down comes across as simpering and not a little submissive – she may not be catering to the physical objectification of women, but when she’s cited as a strong, well-rounded female game character I can’t help but think we’ve got a long way to go.

I actually think Mass Effect’s Ashley Williams is closer to how female characters should be portrayed than Alyx is. One of my favourite lines in the game occurred when she’s expressing her dismay at the sleazy club at the citadel, and went something like ‘If you want to see me in a tin-foil miniskirt you’ll have to buy me dinner first’ (the implication being that she’s unimpressed with the cheaply dressed women, not that if you buy her dinner she’s yours forever).

Of course when you first meet her she is wearing figure hugging, bubblegum coloured armour…

July 8th, 2008 at 1:11 pm

tmp says:

Also, this is an action game where you’re supposed to play the hero in trying to save the world. If the NPCs weren’t dependant on you to solve the puzzles and take out the bad guys it would just be a movie where you decide camera angles rather than a game.

Well that pretty much shoots a hole in the “she’s there as independent strong character capable of holding her own” argument, though. It’s a supporting character, easy to look at, dependant on the “strong, silent male type” to get anywhere and massaging his ego for everything he does. Not much more than mental equivalent to the pair of walking boobs, when you think of it like that.

July 8th, 2008 at 5:55 pm

St. Andrew says:

why aren’t the male main characters all shirtless with pants that emphasize the unrealistically huge size of their massive packages?

because then it would get an AO rating and no store would carry it, which says a lot about sexism at large, but doesn’t shed any new light on the issue at hand.

however, if Steam carried a game like that, i would totally consider buying it. DOES Steam carry AO titles? I’ve no idea..

July 8th, 2008 at 5:56 pm

Dorian Cornelius Jasper says:

Old Hat Note:

“When you’ve got artists who tear their photo-ref out of Porn mags, you can’t really fucking treat any idea they’re not actually sexist, objectifying trash seriously.”

Oh snap. Is that how they really do it in the superhero comic business? Seriously?

July 9th, 2008 at 2:14 am

tmp says:

Oh snap. Is that how they really do it in the superhero comic business? Seriously?

Well, if you need a reference for drawing a well-proportioned human figure in skin-tight bodysuit then i’d figure yeah, porn (like any other pictures of naked humans) would work very good. But to go from this to “sexist, objectifying trash” is quite idiotic — in the process of drawing/3d modeling the human form, that form is treated as object no matter where the reference material comes from… and regardless of object’s gender.

July 9th, 2008 at 3:39 am

Albides says:

Bearing in mind that I haven’t played Ep 1 or 2, but I thought Alyx kind of unremarkable. The one thing that stands out in my mind is her skills, not any prominent character quirks or flaws. This might sound like a bad thing, but I think it makes her more a person than a character.

But it’s been ages since I’ve played HL2 and my memory isn’t the best at the best of times.

I don’t think anyone’s mentioned the fact that Gordon Freeman doesn’t conform to the macho macho man stereotype either. He’s a nerd in a supersuit, which is appropriate considering the game’s commitment to the very personal 1st person perspective, which ensured that though he might not say a single word, we still felt attached to him. Half life has always been about the common guy.

July 9th, 2008 at 6:34 am

Albides says:

brog: What? Don’t tell me you don’t have a doctorate in theoretical physics! What a newb.

…

I knew someone was going to bring that up.

Still, I can relate more to a scientist than I could do, say, a soldier with bulging muscles. The first Half-life’s opening – in which you go about your routine like on any other day sort of reinforces that. You have a feeling you’re just another guy on his way to work. It’s only later that you’re forced into a martial role. Then there’s that perspective “realism” I talked about making you empathise with the whole thing that little bit more. So Gordon Freeman isn’t a hero, he’s an ordinary guy, albiet highly educated, forced into heroic deeds.

July 9th, 2008 at 6:51 am

brog says:

Albides: Working on it, takes a while (well, maths, but it’s related and I’ve been having to listen to a lot of physicists lately). But most people don’t; it’s a lot of work and the thought of having a regular job with predictable hours and decent money can be very tempting.

July 9th, 2008 at 7:07 am

Saflo says:

@Albides

For one thing, do get around to the episodes, they’re fantastic. For another, understand that Alyx plays a much bigger role in both of them, to the point where it wouldn’t be a stretch to call them cooperative games. Accordingly she’s fleshed out more and more as the series progresses (although I think they did a fine job in HL2).

July 9th, 2008 at 7:37 am

Saflo says:

Freeman might as well be the Doom Marine, they are functionally the same. Hell, in Doom 3 you’re just Joe Shmoe new guy on his way to his new post.

You make a good point, but in this case I think a blank-slate character was used quite intentionally rather than because it’s just the way things were (or are) in the FPS world. It’s clear that Valve’s intention is to essentially eliminate Gordon as a character, that he might be more effective vessel for the player. So far they’ve been very successful. Alternately, there is still something strangely intriguing about him, whereas no one could be bothered to find out who the Doom marine is.

July 9th, 2008 at 7:48 am

Gap Gen says:

I don’t really like the macho thing either. Or rather, if you do it then your story becomes fantasy. For example, Brothers in Arms does the whole farmboy-affected-by-war thing rather well. Whereas in Company of Heroes, everyone is built like a fricken’ tank, and spouts gruff crap that makes you want to punch their faces in.

Actually, ironically, the characters in CoH seem more realistic in-game, being more likely to die horribly than the cast of BiA, who can take down entire regiments with a four-man fireteam.

July 9th, 2008 at 9:26 am

Muzman says:

Alyx Vance is pretty toned down as female characters go, for sure. Any problems seem to draw attention to the player centred gaming ethic more than anything else, for me. But that does hurt the character. It’s weird ’cause I find myself wishing she was … cooler (ie, more like all those typical hyper-competent female characters, if only slightly). The Gordon-fangirl vibe really gets weird after a while, “Oh Gordon that was amazing, thank you!” (quiet double-entendrites) “Really? All I did was wear a fantastically armoured suit and point its light at some zombies so you could shoot them. And you’re effectively naked as far as physical harm goes. Give yourself some credit! Oh, that’s right, I can’t talk.”
The partnership thing works really well for the most part, functionally speaking. It’d be even more effective if her character kinda developed along with it and became a more relaxed compadre sort, to me anyway. Oh well. You can’t counterweight the entirety of the gaming and comic girl canon with one character.

July 9th, 2008 at 10:08 am

Gap Gen says:

Kerrigan was pretty good, IIRC. Also, Lady Diedre Skye.

July 9th, 2008 at 11:08 am

tmp says:

There’s a really long stretch between a supporting character and eyecandy in my opinion.

Certainly, but then i’m not making this stretch. That is, i was pointing out the character’s behaviour was effectively giving the player ego/confidence boost and said nothing about the eyecandy factor.

Although since you bring it up, one could wonder exactly what reasons were there to have a female cast in that particular role. And if people were so ready to jump to defense of a male acting in the very same manner she does.

July 9th, 2008 at 4:38 pm

tmp says:

Because sycophantic behaviour tend to quickly become irritating. But oddly enough part of male population finds it less irritating when associated with pair of tits…

July 9th, 2008 at 5:12 pm

Al3xand3r says:

I’m sure people would have loved Barney as a side kick, throwing his witty lines and stuff… Also, most squad based games have male, er, squadmates, though they tend to not talk much at all, thanks to the games’ theme if nothing else.

I think you can have males admire other males without making people think they’re gay (not that it would be so wrong if they were) and/or attracted to them. Look how everyone admires Neo in The Matrix or basically how everyone admires most every super hero. It’s all in how it’s presented. Heck, most real world teen males admire their favorite heroes anyway and fight over who would beat who.

July 9th, 2008 at 5:46 pm

skalpadda says:

I remember reading an article on how they shaped Alyx’s behavior a while back, and I’ll link it if I can remember where I found it.

It’s also mentioned in the developer’s commentary you can turn on in the game after finishing it. Alyx’ voiceactor (Merle Dandridge) talks quite a lot about her job doing the voicework and the reasonings behind much of her character.

Interesting stuff :)

I don’t think it would be weird or “gay” to have a male sidekick (Barney would fit in well) telling you that you’re doing well in the same manner Alyx does. You would obviously not use the same words and body language, because Alyx is written as a woman and women are not the same as men. There’s nothing morally wrong with acknowdedging that.

July 9th, 2008 at 7:40 pm

skalpadda says:

I don’t think it’s a problem if you treat both your characters and and your costumers with respect.

I’m making the maybe not so wild assumption that the thing we’re having a problem with is that the only way a lot of developers/gamewriters can characterize male and female characters is something like the Terminator for men and Jenna Jameson for women (pushing to extremes here, but just to make a point).

July 9th, 2008 at 8:14 pm

Al3xand3r says:

Next comment (I’m just curious).

July 10th, 2008 at 5:59 pm

Al3xand3r says:

Well I mentioned that men are mistreated and objectified just as much as women in the way they’re presented like arnold clones. Obviously an average joe’s LIFE wouldn’t make for an exciting game, but you CAN put a more human, more average joe kind of guy in extraordinary situations and have him realistically take them on.

Think the original Silent Hill where it was quite hyped about having an average joe main character who wasn’t even very good at shooting stuff with a gun and often missed etc… Sure you ended up killing an awful lot of things in the game (and you didn’t miss that much, else combat would be worse), but the character was still better than most guys in games, and a step in the right direction, not only in his abilities but also his motives and morals.

As for the world saving missions, yes, those tend to get old also, you can have smaller scale stories that are just as exciting if you present the story properly, make the player care for the characters and what happens to them, and put them in more realistic distress than some comet heading to earth or am evil god getting resurrected.

Think of the Odyssey, the guy just wants to get home dammit, not save the world ;)

July 10th, 2008 at 6:22 pm

steve says:

To quote Old Man Murray:
I took an informal poll of women at the Duluth Center for American Indian Resources yesterday, and overwhelmingly they found it much more pathetic that gamers spend much of their time ordering little pretend army men around. Women at least understand sex. According to my sources, breasts and men’s tendency to be distracted by them are the most recognizably human thing about the whole fucking subculture.

August 11th, 2008 at 7:03 am