You may remember when Codemasters put out their press release for the Damnation announcement, we felt inclined to mock it everso slightly. Codies responded in generous good humour, leading to this madness. Well now some more screenshots have appeared, and as excellent fun as this game looks like it could be, there’s some more mocking to come.
Specifically about the above.
Damnation is to be a large-scale action shooter, set in levels that boast their vertical as much as their horizontal, bursting with physics-defying stunts. Such as driving along walls on a motorbike. Now, we’re not Tim Gunn or anything, but it would seem that for flinging yourself from rooftop to rooftop, performing daredevil feats, and having shoot-outs in mid-air, this isn’t possible the most sensibly designed outfit for the task.
HELLO CODEMASTERS! IS IT 1972 IN YOUR OFFICES?
Do you see how you’re really rather enforcing the reputation we wish this industry didn’t deserve? Do you not want to offer female characters some dignity?
Er, okay, so that was ranting. But come on.
A rather more respectable collection of screenshots, all of them enormous, here.
Related Stories:
@Ian:
That’s Aidan Gillen, most famous (to me) for playing Stewart the amoral manwhore in Queer as Folk.
Was he linked because he’s a good actor, because Queer as Folk was also written by Russel T or both? [/off topic]
Though I tend to agree that hyper sexed female character designs debase us all, and not in the good way, I think occasionally there’s a time and place.
Deathproof was a weird mixture of sordid objectification (Tarantino’s clearly a foot fetishist) and kick ass female empowerment, that kinda worked for me while Mrs. Phil loved it. In games maybe Lara strikes the right balance.
Interestingly male characters aren’t immune to sexual objectication, Clive Barker ordered the male protagonist of Undying prettied up to look like someone he’d want to bed. Barker apparently appreciating a sensitive Captain Haddock look.
@Ian:
That, I don’t know. But he *is* a good actor. It certainly looks to me like Davies has a proclivity towards employing actors he’d like to fuck, but I suspect there’s nothing unusual about that in Tellyworld.
“Stook! Jaamed!”
lol Tak, with the last I was envisioning some guy off of a reality show in which he’s 30 going on about awesome his muscles are, then starts howling at the moon and throwing up the devil horns? I dunno, the things those kids do with their thumb and pinky finger. There’s also older men who get shit faced drunk and throw themselves through walls. Someone has to tell them they aren’t in college anymore. In both cases I think they emit too much testosterone.
Lara Croft is on the line for me, they seem to be trying at least to make her feasible. For a sexually objectified male, I’d expect a ditzy, clumsy version of Dante who is always shirtless for one reason or another. If he’s less than competent and you wonder about the point of character then I think it would work.
Also if I’m looking right, the fellow from Undying looks a little bit like Jesus.
Have we got more than a few names on the “female video game characters who aren’t portrayed as bimbos” list?
To which I’d add, one or two Final Fantasy characters, (some of the time), and maybe Midna from the recent Zelda, but on PC? Nah, I’m stuck after Alyx pretty much.
This whole issue might seem a bit academic and overly PC to some, but a hypothetical writer who can write a good strong female character, would probably be able to come up with a decent plot for the rest of the game. Something too many games are lacking.
So, by pointing out the obvious lack of imagination in the above picture (”just make her breasts bigger and the jacket smaller, that’ll do”), hopefully we’ll inspire someone to put some more bloody effort into game design.
can but hope eh?
(and while we’re on the subject, even this straight boy thinks David Tennent is hawt!)
Good old troubled Clive Barker.
“Stook!”
@Klaus, Strangely Imajica does leave you with the strong impression Clive Barker fancies Christ. And the Virgin Mary. And himself. At the same time.
Clive Barker’s cool.
Don’t forget Minerva – she’s female!
And GLaDOS, despite her robotic pretensions. Just try not to imagine her in a bikini…
There’s Cate Archer, who is very sexy, but also extremely competent, and the protagonist of a first person shooter, a genre that is, as previously mentioned, seriously lacking in female role models.
That game also made fun of objectifying males with the american spy character, whose name escapes me.
*sigh* You know. I google Cate Archer only to see someone has crafted nude skins for her. Though the Valkyries from Valkyrie Profile are pretty much competent, especially crazy ass Hrist.
“God, this thread’s got me listening to the Indelicates.
KG”
The number of times since I got that album that I’ve felt like holding people down and forcing them to listen to ‘Our Daughters Will Never Be Free’ on repeat is quite staggering.
@The thread in general:
Being opposed to the objectification of women is not political correctness. It’s feminism. Political correctness means taking that line just because it’s the only politically/culturally acceptable in the society you’re in. You’re not being politically correct if you actually think it’s wrong/idiotic, and shouting ‘political correctness’ whenever anyone objects to anything on anti-sexist/racist/homophobic grounds is missing the point.
No One Lives Forever, Pseudo?
EDIT: gads, fast growing thread. Posting while trying to fake working is fail for response times.
*heads off to google the Indelicates* Their wiki article is very slim. Maybe it’s best if I google them at home?
If men can be big burly masses with arms like giant vein-y penises with little visible bone structure or elbow (Gears of War), I don’t see the problem with buxom female characters. Every time you see a scantly clad female people yell (exploitation), whereas every giant muscle man is met with little of the same complaints.
It’s a video game, have fun with it, and lets hope that there’s some interesting physics too.
That’s silly argument to apply to fictional universe where the mesh and textures representing the clothing (or lack thereof) have no impact on one’s ability to move, and on offered protection. These characters could wear (or not wear) anything, and they’d be just effective.
So there’s no character incompetence here, as the choice of outfit doesn’t penalize the character so they aren’t making here any tradeoff. The only possible incompetence is on the part of the viewer, unable to look at things as they are on their own, rather than slavishly reuse preconceived notions lifted from their own environment.
Btw. The funny part of this whole discussion is, it still boils down to group of men being honestly convinced they have a say in how women should be dressing, and how these choices of attire should be basis to form opinions on mental qualities of women in question. Does it really deserve to be touted as “21st century” attitude, when it’s really no different from the attitudes of these ridiculed 11 year olds and game developers..?
Following a link on the Dragon’s Age thread I found this;
“We’re aiming for a Mature rating, so we’re not avoiding any mature content if it serves our purposes — but neither do we intend to dwell on it or use it in a gratuitous fashion. If a whorehouse is called for by the story, there will be a whorehouse, and it won’t be just to see jiggly bunny-suited women bouncing about the bordello.
And if there is, we’d have to make sure there are jiggly bunny-suited men bouncing about, as well. That way at least we’d be equal opportunity panderers.”
Bunny-suited men – the solution to sexism in games?
Edit- It’s from a Bioware rep, incidentally.
Are you saying virtual women should decide for themselves what their attire is, tmp?
GLaDOS did have some lovely orbs.
802.11N as well…ya get me.
Although if she has a friend with her then maybe wi-fi in MIXED MODE.
If you know what I’m talking about.
And I think you do.
(routers…*sniggers*)
You know, when game developers create sexy female protagonist with highly sexualized outfits, it still boils down to group of men being honestly convinced they have a say in how women should be dressing.
See what I did there?
dp
@Tak
They’re relatively new, debut album just released. A few songs on youtube I believe.
Tmp, it breaks the immersion. I can’t very well play that game seriously without laughing at her ’sexually liberating’ design. It’s unnecessary and distracting.
“…and how these choices of attire should be basis to form opinions on mental qualities of women in question.”
Yes because, people are going to respect Margaret Thatcher in a miniskirt and tubetop. In the real world we are judged on such things, we – fortunately – don’t live in Utopia.
You have repeated my point without really understanding it?
@the Hammer — i’m rather saying that making the issue to be “ohnoes revealing clothing = bad, it’s 21st century now” isn’t really advancing it from the original “revealing clothing = boner hence good” standpoint. It’s just basic flip-flop that still preserves the underlying mindset. The advancement imo would be adopting attitude similar to one people currently apply to men attires. That is, “loin cloth or kevlar suit, who gives a fuck”.
So you guys are outraged by a sight of an attractive woman?
How do you know that’s not a male character?
IRTA “Damnation is to be a large-scale action hooters” which I guess says everything that needs to be said about it.
What immersion; are you saying if it wasn’t for pair of gravity-defying tits, you could “seriously and without laughing” play the game where you ride four-wheel bicycles up the vertical walls? In the world where the Union rocketman fight burly machinegunslingers in Steampunk Temple of Elemental Evil?
Hence my comment about the 21st century attitude that really ain’t…
Speaking for myself, I wouldn’t say I’m outraged. More exasperated by the immaturity of these developers, and their implied target audience.
My reaction is more of an eye-rolling than actual anger.
@Tak – yes, No One Lives Forever.
Wow. So, this is a writeup complaining about a tits-out female game character, lamenting the designer’s lack of endowing their character with any dignity. And it even includes the thought-provoking observation about how impractical such an outfit is for all the running-and-gunning and rooftop-jumping the wearer will be engaging in!
This post counts as a major strike against my confidence in being able to rely on RPS for anything remotely resembling original thoughts and commentary about videogames.
“More exasperated by the immaturity of these developers, and their implied target audience.
My reaction is more of an eye-rolling than actual anger.”
This is dead on the money for me. I’m just so tired of being associated with these morons.
So what should he have said, Cedge? “I love the objectification, bring it on!” He’s posting what he feels isn’t that crazy?
@Cledge – I disagree, this has to be the only popular gaming forum on net where the writer could even ask the question without being accused of being a ‘fag’ by a gaggle of 13 year old Texans.
The perceived strength of the 13 year old Texan demographic is, of course, part of the problem.
tmp, good point.
I meant the feeling I get when I play Kotor 2. That I am concentrating on what’s going on and enjoying whatever nonsense the characters are talking about. Until Kotor 2 crashes then I remember where I am.
In this particular case, I imagine a character babbling on about the plot and then she comes onto the screen and I start having a… giggle fit, if you will. The same thing happens when I look at Ivy in Soul Calibur.
I don’t know what other attitude to feel, because I feel it’s completely reasonable and effective to judge people on how they choose to present themselves.
“More exasperated by the immaturity of these developers, and their implied target audience.
My reaction is more of an eye-rolling than actual anger.”
Ditto, I’m not angry. It’s more “Come on! Really!? You needed to go there? Game must suck…”
to the eye-rollers and deriders, i should think that the ’solution’ would lie in making a point to play & purchase those games with characters and plot-devices which meet your standards of social responsibility.
BUT LET’S BE HONEST HERE, we all know plenty of real-life women whose attire is often situationally irrational if not outright absurd.
maybe this chick reeeeeally wanted to wear the private-label Hedi Slimane top she’s had laying around, and didn’t really give much consideration to what she’d be doing later in the day..
Okay Cedge, I’ll just happily sit back and let all these things slide no matter how often they happen!
Sigh.
Why such anger? Do you need to talk?
“maybe this chick reeeeeally wanted to wear the private-label Hedi Slimane top she’s had laying around, and didn’t really give much consideration to what she’d be doing later in the day..”
I dated a girl like that once, and while it was fun to always draw jealous looks, it really just resulted in a lot of me being very cold, and her having my damn nice jacket. Gladly, that’s a thing of the past now.
And Cedge, join in the convo. This is a great place generally speaking, once you get past the fact that it’s full of Brits :p *flees from the wrath*
Gettin’ a pretty big boner here.
the brits thing is only a problem when trying to parse slang like “bummed.”
Almost two hundred posts talking about tits in a video game. Only at RPS. :D
There is a difference between being a subject and being an object.
Men tend to be presented as subjects and women as objects.
Yeah, men are stereotyped as being strong, brave, muscular, capable of being in charge…but those aren’t considered bad things by our society and the more you live up to them, the more you are rewarded. The stereotypes of women are mainly that they are not people in and of themselves…but that they are objects for men to look at…and that is not going to make a woman president or get her any real power or respect in this society.
Sure, we can see a lot of women who put themselves on magazine covers as objects…that doesn’t mean women enjoy it…it means that women who don’t conform don’t get the work. Look at all of those TV shows where the sort of average dumpy guy is married to the smoking hot model…because average women don’t often get jobs in Hollywood. You don’t have to be Fabio to get a job in Hollywood…there are lots of jobs for you. It is really hard to get a job in Hollywood if you don’t present yourself as an underweight unempowered object. Similarly, there are quite a lot of games where male protagonists aren’t steroided out hulks…almost all of the gazillion World War 2 titles for example.
Anyway, the real point of this post is to address something else that was commented upon. People saying that it is just as wrong to not let women be sexy–that we shouldn’t be sex negative. Women certainly can be sexy…but are women allowed to be sexual subjects. Most of the time they aren’t…they are just objects. In my experience teaching music history, when I present my students with women who are sexual subjects…a number of the guys who aren’t used to it get really nervous really quickly and the women look surprised to see something they often hadn’t seen before. Often not surprisingly, women who were sexual subjects often had more trouble with censors than ones who presented as sexual objects.
Anyway, here are some examples. Sadly, most of the examples of sexual subjects are way old. Says a lot about our current situation. So first, a classic example of a sexual object.
Brittney Spears, “Baby one more time”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_bsniYwSaWg
She is dressed and presented in a way to make her an object of sexual desire, but not presented as in control of her own sexuality. She is regularly presented with shots where the camera is above her, which gives a feeling of disempowerment. Plus the lyrics emphasize her lack of power and control…the male listener is reassured of her sexual availability and his power over her.
This can be contrasted with (going backwards in time for those who want to avoid the old stuff):
Peaches, “Set it Off”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qlmlaSwjfv8
While she is certainly scantily clad, she is certainly a subject and not an object. The camera often films her from below, emphasizing her power…plus she morphs to become less sexy from the viewer…but she herself continues to have her sexuality.
Betty Davis, “Nasty Gal”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iDvvQq4leoo
Marlene Dietrich from Morrocco
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_oNkwYQkoEw
Sophie Tucker…I believe the song is called, “Only the Right Kind of Man Can Do Me Wrong”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JM77L051XEg
The Amazing Mae West, “I Like a Guy What Takes His Time”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dCHlz2iz-RQ&feature=related
(This clip is very long…the first 3.5 minutes give a sense of her Vegas stage show from the 1950s. You can also check out this heavily censored of the same song:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tjG1xeiwjb8)
the way forward for all female characters portrayed in gaming is to be adorned in a red fire retardent suit, a black gasmask and equiped with an oversized flamer.
sensual im sure you will all agree.
Well your very right to post this,
Its time games started to try to influence other creative media instead of aping off forms of the lowest common denominator culture. Games can influence the outside world such as the great pixel art we get from eboy that is clearly influenced by Will Wrights Simcity. Its great to hear Will Wright has/is collaborating with Brian Eno for Spore. We need Eno’s in the games industry. Games exist inside there own space to much. The music industry has all sorts of counter culture types that work with the mainstream and so should games. There are so many great graphic artists out there that would make great character designers.
How many games contribute to culture outside of the games world itself?
Not a quarter as much as film or music do. I guess this shows that games are still very much in there infancy i hope. When they start to stimulate debate outside of the game world then we are laughing.
Its embarrassing some still use Baywatch as a source of inspiration.
Hah! Confirmation!
Acolytes! Commence your pontificating!
Afaic the problem isn’t so much that making your female lead characters look like they stepped off the cover of Nuts isn’t disappointingly obvious and juvenile (though it is), its that gaming in general often seems like it struggles to do anything different.
I’m not overly worried by the ten trillion films that come out every year with bimbo female leads because there is a fairly constant, if some what limited stream of “high-brow”*1 films also coming out that try do something different with their female characters. I don’t think ‘Y tu mamá también’ would have been a better film if the most notable thing about Luisa had been that she dressed and posed like the Damnation chick*2. There are different ways of dealing with female characters. Nuts is one way. I think gaming needs to experiment more with some other formulas.
Don’t get me wrong, I am all for more sex in games, just provided its more like ‘Y tu mamá también’, and less like Nuts – there is more than enough Nuts out there already. And also Nuts sucks gay balls compared to internet pr0n.
*1 Pinch of salt
*2 Maybe the Damnation chick will distinguish herself in other ways? Who knows… I’m not hopeful, at all.
I was thoroughly entertained by the repeated mentionings of ‘Nuts’.
Anyone else think of this?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Stripperiffic
Walker > GLaDOS had some fantastic curves
Nuts, nuts, nuts.
@Alyx haters, sure she is a *bit* obvious, but you’ve got to start somewhere, and surely she represents a decent start.
And re. her apparently having the hots for gordon, lets see how that plays out. I am hopeful that valve can do a decent job of managing their relationship without it becoming too cringe-worthy.
Hell, on the off-chance that the whole thing (by thing I mean the “romantic” subplot) turns out to all be in Gordon’s mind and Alyx isn’t at all interested I’ll even be impressed. Maybe there is some other guy she hasn’t had time to mention? But in that case I will require the last level of HL2 EP26 to be a crazy climactic-race-to-stop-the-wedding level with Gordon hellbent on disrupting Alyx’s nuptials. Ideally with another resonance cascade.