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	<title>Comments on: LivePlace: Online Photorealism On Rubbish PCs?</title>
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	<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/08/16/liveplace-online-photorealism-on-rubbish-pcs/</link>
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		<title>By: moonracer</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/08/16/liveplace-online-photorealism-on-rubbish-pcs/comment-page-2/#comment-79726</link>
		<dc:creator>moonracer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 01:10:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=2318#comment-79726</guid>
		<description>I kind of blocked out the iffy server-side rendering tech and focused on the game world itself. If this wasn&#039;t a hoax then it is pretty impressive. Making a detailed interior for every building is a LOT of work! Even if there are only 3 different house designs in the suburb area and the like that is a lot of information. Doing that AND being able to see the interior through an outside window? I can&#039;t imagine the amount of work required just to design a city map like that.

What would be a wild use for the server side rendering technology would be a massive scale upgrade to Google Earth or a similar mapping service. Start with a topographical upgrade, then roads, cities, towns,.... Eventually a highly detailed 3d map of Earth, that you can fly/drive/walk through.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I kind of blocked out the iffy server-side rendering tech and focused on the game world itself. If this wasn&#8217;t a hoax then it is pretty impressive. Making a detailed interior for every building is a LOT of work! Even if there are only 3 different house designs in the suburb area and the like that is a lot of information. Doing that AND being able to see the interior through an outside window? I can&#8217;t imagine the amount of work required just to design a city map like that.</p>
<p>What would be a wild use for the server side rendering technology would be a massive scale upgrade to Google Earth or a similar mapping service. Start with a topographical upgrade, then roads, cities, towns,&#8230;. Eventually a highly detailed 3d map of Earth, that you can fly/drive/walk through.</p>
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		<title>By: np</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/08/16/liveplace-online-photorealism-on-rubbish-pcs/comment-page-1/#comment-79173</link>
		<dc:creator>np</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:11:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=2318#comment-79173</guid>
		<description>I knew this was coming, thanks for confirming what I already suspected. This is the future folks!

&quot;So, say, for a online world with 200,000 people working at any time, you’d need a server stack of 200,000 computers.&quot; 

I don&#039;t quite agree with that. If it is uses ray trace rendering like it says it does in the video and every light source is traced then surely you can have lots of different perspectives captured from the same rendered instance, if that makes sense? It would take a hell of a lot of processing yeah but not the equivalent flops of 200,000 computers. Of course having multicore parallel processors will be the answer to all of this, I think when I read last some boffin at MIT are up to 64 cores on a single die. 

I am of course, like your self admitted no expert in this field and don’t pretend to be. Very interesting though!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I knew this was coming, thanks for confirming what I already suspected. This is the future folks!</p>
<p>&#8220;So, say, for a online world with 200,000 people working at any time, you’d need a server stack of 200,000 computers.&#8221; </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t quite agree with that. If it is uses ray trace rendering like it says it does in the video and every light source is traced then surely you can have lots of different perspectives captured from the same rendered instance, if that makes sense? It would take a hell of a lot of processing yeah but not the equivalent flops of 200,000 computers. Of course having multicore parallel processors will be the answer to all of this, I think when I read last some boffin at MIT are up to 64 cores on a single die. </p>
<p>I am of course, like your self admitted no expert in this field and don’t pretend to be. Very interesting though!</p>
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		<title>By: CJ McFly</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/08/16/liveplace-online-photorealism-on-rubbish-pcs/comment-page-1/#comment-79128</link>
		<dc:creator>CJ McFly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 15:09:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=2318#comment-79128</guid>
		<description>Wow I cannot wait to play with the realistic rubbish and fire hydrants. I really doubt that&#039;s a spoof... from the amateur chair it seems like just as much effort to do it as it would to make a fake that good - embedded programs etc! 

Sure hope you can embed something a bit more exciting than paint though...are there any links to a development site or similar?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow I cannot wait to play with the realistic rubbish and fire hydrants. I really doubt that&#8217;s a spoof&#8230; from the amateur chair it seems like just as much effort to do it as it would to make a fake that good &#8211; embedded programs etc! </p>
<p>Sure hope you can embed something a bit more exciting than paint though&#8230;are there any links to a development site or similar?</p>
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		<title>By: Nallen</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/08/16/liveplace-online-photorealism-on-rubbish-pcs/comment-page-1/#comment-79102</link>
		<dc:creator>Nallen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 13:34:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=2318#comment-79102</guid>
		<description>What the shit is this &#039;the cloud&#039; rubbish on TechCrunch. &quot;it couldn&#039;t even be done by the cloud!&quot; &quot;maybe this is possible on the CLOUD&quot; &quot;omg some1 said clawd so now I repeats it&quot;

Urgh.

It&#039;s as if no one has heard of the concept of distributed computing before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What the shit is this &#8216;the cloud&#8217; rubbish on TechCrunch. &#8220;it couldn&#8217;t even be done by the cloud!&#8221; &#8220;maybe this is possible on the CLOUD&#8221; &#8220;omg some1 said clawd so now I repeats it&#8221;</p>
<p>Urgh.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s as if no one has heard of the concept of distributed computing before.</p>
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		<title>By: Kurgol</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/08/16/liveplace-online-photorealism-on-rubbish-pcs/comment-page-1/#comment-79030</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurgol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 07:47:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=2318#comment-79030</guid>
		<description>Okay I call b*llsh*t on these guys.

3min 20 sec into the video you see &lt;a href=&quot;http://3dblasphemy.com/OPTIMUS/OPTIMUS.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Optimus Prime&lt;/a&gt; - basically copied straight from the same guy who did the &lt;a href=&quot;http://3dblasphemy.com/personal/CITY.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;opening sequence&lt;/a&gt;.

Now 3:54 into the video a straight rip of &lt;a href=&quot;http://3dblasphemy.com/personal/LOFT.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;more artwork&lt;/a&gt; by the same artist!

Now go take a look at the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.otoy.com/site/start.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Otoy screenshots&lt;/a&gt;. I don&#039;t belive this video has anything to do with Otoy. The published screenshots on their actual website are vastly inferior to those in this video.

If you want to look at the origonal artist&#039;s own website you can find it &lt;a href=&quot;http://3dblasphemy.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. I&#039;m sure there are more examples I have missed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay I call b*llsh*t on these guys.</p>
<p>3min 20 sec into the video you see <a href="http://3dblasphemy.com/OPTIMUS/OPTIMUS.html" rel="nofollow">Optimus Prime</a> &#8211; basically copied straight from the same guy who did the <a href="http://3dblasphemy.com/personal/CITY.html" rel="nofollow">opening sequence</a>.</p>
<p>Now 3:54 into the video a straight rip of <a href="http://3dblasphemy.com/personal/LOFT.html" rel="nofollow">more artwork</a> by the same artist!</p>
<p>Now go take a look at the <a href="http://www.otoy.com/site/start.htm" rel="nofollow">Otoy screenshots</a>. I don&#8217;t belive this video has anything to do with Otoy. The published screenshots on their actual website are vastly inferior to those in this video.</p>
<p>If you want to look at the origonal artist&#8217;s own website you can find it <a href="http://3dblasphemy.com/" rel="nofollow">here</a>. I&#8217;m sure there are more examples I have missed.</p>
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		<title>By: ohGr</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/08/16/liveplace-online-photorealism-on-rubbish-pcs/comment-page-1/#comment-78921</link>
		<dc:creator>ohGr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 18:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=2318#comment-78921</guid>
		<description>If they do manage to get this thing working right, Second Life will be crushed. All they need to do, is to add Furrys. And it&#039;s good bye Second Life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If they do manage to get this thing working right, Second Life will be crushed. All they need to do, is to add Furrys. And it&#8217;s good bye Second Life.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/08/16/liveplace-online-photorealism-on-rubbish-pcs/comment-page-1/#comment-78893</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 15:11:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=2318#comment-78893</guid>
		<description>Colour me hhhhmmmmmmmmm&#039;d big time.
I&#039;m in to 3D and I&#039;m fairly confidant that rendering of that quality, even at low resolutions, then compressing and packaging it up as a vid (that&#039;s 24 frames per second), then sending it across the internet to the client, while all the time being INTERACTIVE would require colosal amounts of rendering power and bandwidth.
I could imagine the Pixar render farm techs laughing their asses off at this one.

&quot;By the time technology has evolved enough to make this idea truly feasible, your common-or-garden rubbish PC will have sufficient processing power to render ultra-realistic worlds anyway, thus eliminating its primary advantage.

Hmm.&quot;

You may have hit the nail on the head there Monkfish.  This is prototyping/10 year plan stuff.

However, I have to admit, I only have experience with off-line rendering, so I can only judge from that.  All kinds of wizardry goes in to real time rendering so who knows.  But even with that admittance this still has hhhmmmmm stamped all over it for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Colour me hhhhmmmmmmmmm&#8217;d big time.<br />
I&#8217;m in to 3D and I&#8217;m fairly confidant that rendering of that quality, even at low resolutions, then compressing and packaging it up as a vid (that&#8217;s 24 frames per second), then sending it across the internet to the client, while all the time being INTERACTIVE would require colosal amounts of rendering power and bandwidth.<br />
I could imagine the Pixar render farm techs laughing their asses off at this one.</p>
<p>&#8220;By the time technology has evolved enough to make this idea truly feasible, your common-or-garden rubbish PC will have sufficient processing power to render ultra-realistic worlds anyway, thus eliminating its primary advantage.</p>
<p>Hmm.&#8221;</p>
<p>You may have hit the nail on the head there Monkfish.  This is prototyping/10 year plan stuff.</p>
<p>However, I have to admit, I only have experience with off-line rendering, so I can only judge from that.  All kinds of wizardry goes in to real time rendering so who knows.  But even with that admittance this still has hhhmmmmm stamped all over it for me.</p>
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		<title>By: GothikX</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/08/16/liveplace-online-photorealism-on-rubbish-pcs/comment-page-1/#comment-78890</link>
		<dc:creator>GothikX</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 14:54:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=2318#comment-78890</guid>
		<description>First of all: calling it raytracing is an absurd stretch, and I say that without having watched the video or anything. True raytracing needs to be computed for every camera/point of view, which would mean calculating it for every user, which is pretty much impossible beyond a couple users even with a zillion processor machine (well you get the point). Radiosity is much more likely what they meant; that can be calculated once and rendered multiple times (with enough trickery), with relatively less overhead after the initial calculation.

I was going to go on a big rant on why this won&#039;t work but there&#039;s no point really. If it does work somehow within my life span (and before hybrid quantum/bio computers and hyperspace communications or whatnot), kudos to them.

Also: &quot;In other words, there needs to the the equivalent rendering power to create the image for each person on a server.&quot; - not really. One of the commenters had it right - once you have the physical/meta aspects of the world computed and the geometry all ready for the pipeline, you can take snapshots of the world from multiple viewpoints without much overhead; that&#039;s actually the one thing that makes it even remotely possible. And since it runs on a (presumably) custom-built special-purpose machine, the comparison with graphic cards isn&#039;t correct; there is some level of resemblance (at least with traditional rendering without raytracing), but saying that you need an 8800 for every client is just wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all: calling it raytracing is an absurd stretch, and I say that without having watched the video or anything. True raytracing needs to be computed for every camera/point of view, which would mean calculating it for every user, which is pretty much impossible beyond a couple users even with a zillion processor machine (well you get the point). Radiosity is much more likely what they meant; that can be calculated once and rendered multiple times (with enough trickery), with relatively less overhead after the initial calculation.</p>
<p>I was going to go on a big rant on why this won&#8217;t work but there&#8217;s no point really. If it does work somehow within my life span (and before hybrid quantum/bio computers and hyperspace communications or whatnot), kudos to them.</p>
<p>Also: &#8220;In other words, there needs to the the equivalent rendering power to create the image for each person on a server.&#8221; &#8211; not really. One of the commenters had it right &#8211; once you have the physical/meta aspects of the world computed and the geometry all ready for the pipeline, you can take snapshots of the world from multiple viewpoints without much overhead; that&#8217;s actually the one thing that makes it even remotely possible. And since it runs on a (presumably) custom-built special-purpose machine, the comparison with graphic cards isn&#8217;t correct; there is some level of resemblance (at least with traditional rendering without raytracing), but saying that you need an 8800 for every client is just wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Jetsetlemming</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/08/16/liveplace-online-photorealism-on-rubbish-pcs/comment-page-1/#comment-78889</link>
		<dc:creator>Jetsetlemming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 14:42:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=2318#comment-78889</guid>
		<description>It won&#039;t uniquely render the world per user- rather, it&#039;ll render the entire world in one instance, or one instance per server shard, and then have users occupy view-points of the world- think of it in a similar manner to local console multiplayer.
I&#039;m still doubtful, though. 
Also, some of those shots were goddamn creepy. What is this supposed to actually BE, anyway? Horror themed Second Life?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It won&#8217;t uniquely render the world per user- rather, it&#8217;ll render the entire world in one instance, or one instance per server shard, and then have users occupy view-points of the world- think of it in a similar manner to local console multiplayer.<br />
I&#8217;m still doubtful, though.<br />
Also, some of those shots were goddamn creepy. What is this supposed to actually BE, anyway? Horror themed Second Life?</p>
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		<title>By: Pishtaco</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/08/16/liveplace-online-photorealism-on-rubbish-pcs/comment-page-1/#comment-78854</link>
		<dc:creator>Pishtaco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:03:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=2318#comment-78854</guid>
		<description>However good cheap home PCs get at rendering, this technology will still be attractive because it makes piracy much more difficult and makes advertising easier.

And much more compression should be possible with this than with live video, since you have a complete model of the  geometry of the world which you can use to decide how to compress things. Maybe there&#039;s a simplified model running on the client as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>However good cheap home PCs get at rendering, this technology will still be attractive because it makes piracy much more difficult and makes advertising easier.</p>
<p>And much more compression should be possible with this than with live video, since you have a complete model of the  geometry of the world which you can use to decide how to compress things. Maybe there&#8217;s a simplified model running on the client as well.</p>
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		<title>By: thesombrerokid</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/08/16/liveplace-online-photorealism-on-rubbish-pcs/comment-page-1/#comment-78853</link>
		<dc:creator>thesombrerokid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 09:42:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=2318#comment-78853</guid>
		<description>compression = not runnable on any device! and thus defeats the purpose not to metoin you&#039;re introducing more latency into the equation at best you can encode a stream in the same amount of time it takes to watch this intorducing another .5 second lag on the already .5 second lag you&#039;ve got thus meaning you are seein your getting significant frames a second apart so you&#039;ve solved one problem but made the other one eve worse   xvid working on a .5 second stream would be pretty bad compression anyway

ohh and
800×600 at 24fps = 263,7 Mbit - XVID 2700 Kbit - H.264 270Kbit
isn&#039;t better than what local processing can do now it&#039;s worse, people don&#039;t pay more or surrender some of the power they have for worse, the do it for significantly more or not at all</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>compression = not runnable on any device! and thus defeats the purpose not to metoin you&#8217;re introducing more latency into the equation at best you can encode a stream in the same amount of time it takes to watch this intorducing another .5 second lag on the already .5 second lag you&#8217;ve got thus meaning you are seein your getting significant frames a second apart so you&#8217;ve solved one problem but made the other one eve worse   xvid working on a .5 second stream would be pretty bad compression anyway</p>
<p>ohh and<br />
800×600 at 24fps = 263,7 Mbit &#8211; XVID 2700 Kbit &#8211; H.264 270Kbit<br />
isn&#8217;t better than what local processing can do now it&#8217;s worse, people don&#8217;t pay more or surrender some of the power they have for worse, the do it for significantly more or not at all</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/08/16/liveplace-online-photorealism-on-rubbish-pcs/comment-page-1/#comment-78841</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 06:07:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=2318#comment-78841</guid>
		<description>God damnit, people keep stealing my ideas.  First it was the smaller buttons toward the body on the Guitar Hero controllers, now this! I was literally thinking about server-side rendering earlier today.  
*puts on tin-foil hat*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>God damnit, people keep stealing my ideas.  First it was the smaller buttons toward the body on the Guitar Hero controllers, now this! I was literally thinking about server-side rendering earlier today.<br />
*puts on tin-foil hat*</p>
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