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A Dirty Word
Written by Alec Meer on September 6, 2008 at 2:25 pm.
If you’ve been following the 200+ comments in the thread below our recent discussion of our experiences in the Warhammer Online closed beta, you’ll have spotted that a vocal minority of the WAR community, having made their way here thanks to a link on the warhammeronline.com frontpage, are absolutely furious with us. All those that were simply critical remain, but there were at least another 50 abuse-filled tirades we deleted, consisting of the usual expletives, judgements about our intelligence and sexuality, and a surprising amount of racism towards the British. It’s true: we do drink a lot of tea.
Whether expressed politely or furiously, there were three or four central complaints about what we said - but one stands above them all.
We said it’s got its similarities to World of Warcraft. Well, in fairness, John said it was exactly like World of Warcraft, but clearly the fact he went on to list several ways in which it wasn’t meant the tongue-in-cheekiness of that statement was lost on some folk. (My sneaking a WoW screenshot into the post as a gag was probably a bad idea in retrospect, but it made me giggle). We did, admittedly, come back to the comparison quite a lot, but that we were generally very positive about the game was either dismissed or unnoticed - the simple fact of making that comparison enraged a fair old slice of the WAR community. All the incensed comments weren’t a surprise, nor were they especially distressing - this is, after all, the internet - but I think there’s more at play than simply another case of Angry Internet Men.
A similar outpouring of abuse happened to Richard Bartle when he made a somewhat reckless judgement about WAR’s WOWiness a while back, and I’m sure similar venom’s been poured on a thousand forum posts and news stories the web over. So I’m aware that this post is a little akin to saying ‘Candyman’ into the mirror three times, and fully expect further fury below, but let’s try and have some considered conversation about this.
It’s without a doubt true that dismissing WAR as a WOW clone would be wrong and stupid - there are important differences, and with its perma-war theme and PvP foundations it’s genuinely aimed at achieving a different overall atmosphere than WoW’s cartoon high-jinx and endlessly repeated dungeon runs.
There are also important similarities. Huge similarities, in both its mechanisms of play and its appearance. It’s bizarre that so many people won’t allow this observation to be made. WoW was not the first of its kind, and no-one here is saying it is. It is, however, by far the biggest of its kind, and as a result of that it’s the grandest inspiration for any current MMO developer: 13 million subscribers means cash and glory beyond almost anyone’s wildest dreams. WAR exists because of World of Warcraft. Of course, it also exists because of a number of other factors and influences (including Mythic’s own earlier Dark Age of Camelot). It’s also very true to say that World of Warcraft might not exist without the Warhammer tabletop game, as many WAR fans never tire of mentioning.
The reason we don’t explicitly state that Everquest did it first and Blizzard borrowed from Games Workshop and yadayadayada every we talk about Warhammer Online is not because we don’t know it - of course we know it - but because it doesn’t alter the simple truth that EA’s interest in making and funding WAR is, I have no doubt, because they want a piece of Warcraft’s pie. WAR does a lot of stuff better (and some stuff not as well), and in being so PvP focused does ultimately head to a slightly different place, but WoW’s landmark success is why Warhammer Online looks as it does, why major elements of it play as they do, and most of all why it’s being released now.
I think it’s going to work out, too - I’m expecting an awful lot of dispossessed WoW players to head WAR’s way. It bundles in some new ideas at the same time as evolving and streamlining certain core WoW/Everquest concepts that had, over time, proven themselves a little tired, and that’s enough to make the game seem newer and fresher than it perhaps fundamentally is. There is nothing wrong with that; MMO players have every reason to hope WAR will be a rewarding place to spend their online time.
Still though - why are these guys so angry? There are, I think, two root causes for the unchecked fury. One is that ‘WoW’ has become a negative term to a lot of gamers. It carries connotations of grinding and repetition and dumbed-down cartoon noobishness or whatever - witness too the anger around Diablo 3’s art style. There’s also the simple fact of its popularity - Coldplay sell a lot of records, and it’s for precisely that reason (as much as the fact they make awful music) that a lot of people despise ‘em. The ubiquity is cloying. There’s crossover with the Sims too - the games’ own interestingess ignored by a certain slice of gamers because they consider them aimed at a different audience, thus somehow beneath them. So WoW is a dirty word, interpreted as an insult even when it’s not intended as one.
It’s beyond simply gamers’ own distaste for WoW, though. In the wider world, that is to say the tabloids and worried mothers, WoW is a by-word for the worst stereotypes of PC gaming: anti-social fat guys, killing pretend boars for 24 hours a day, speaking in tongues of statistics and cod-Shakespeare. While the stereotypes may be largely inaccurate, no-one wants to be associated with that - you say WAR is like WoW and people feel insulted. While there are plenty of concrete reasons to be given why WAR is not the same as WoW, it’s telling that a great many of the angry comments haven’t listed them - they’ve just called us stupid and wrong (and much worse). And it’s because they’re offended as much as because of traditional web tribalism. With its darker theme and focus on all-out war, Warhammer Online is considered cool where other MMOs are not. Say it’s like WoW and people feel you’re undermining its cool, and that you’re accusing it of being old news rather than this impossibly momentous upcoming event in their lives.
Which leads onto the second reason. MMOs aren’t like other games. They’re closer to a lifestyle choice, for a lot of people defining how their spare time is spent, how their lives are lived. So if you criticise the game, you criticise the player. God knows there are plenty of non-MMO games that people treat as though they’re bound to their very souls - witness the pile-on for Eurogamer’s MGS4 review, or even the outrage about various RPS writers being down on Stalker: Clear Sky - but it’s even worse with MMOs. Telling a WAR player that his game is similar to WoW is like telling a goth that he’s emo. No-one wants to be told they’re not unique and interesting, to be dismissed as a stereotype they’re not.
WAR is not WoW. But it is a lot like it in a number of crucial ways, and for one essential reason: money. I suspect Mythic and EA aren’t too concerned about the comparison themselves - they might disagree with the sweeping generalisation, but if they didn’t want to be compared they would have gone for an entirely different interface and art approach. Saying WAR is like WoW is not the same as saying it’s a bad or a lazy game, but unfortunately there are guys who do intentionally make the comparison unfavourably, and that’s perhaps understandably made a lot of WAR fans very touchy. I wish they wouldn’t take it so personally, but it can’t realistically be stopped.
We’ll be talking a lot more about WAR over the coming weeks, and will be able to better discuss the RvR/PvP elements that were so marginal in the underpopulated EU closed beta, but I suspect we’ll still end up making the occasional WoW comparison. It’s not meant to be an insult.
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171Comment on this story — Share/save/Digg this story
Tags: Angry Internet Men, feature, MMO, WAR, Warhammer-Online, Wow
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Schtee says:
A very calm and reasoned article, Mr. Meer. I like how if you said “WAR is a lot like one of the (generally accepted) best games ever”, it has an air of positive. However, if you say LOLzWAR’sLikeWoW it’s a massive blow to everything the game stands for. WAR has clearly been inspired (that sounds nice and diplomatic) by the bits of WoW that worked and fitted with the specification for Warhammer. Which is fine. It just needs to have added enough of its own personality to merit a new game.
September 6th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Bas says:
I missed all the drama mentioned, but it sounds pretty sad. It’s just a game. If you enjoy it, good for you.
September 6th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Ben Hazell says:
With its darker theme and focus on all-out war, Warhammer Online is considered cool where other MMOs are not.
I’m a fan, but I’m not sure Warhammer is cool. Quite the opposite - aren’t there a lot of people who wouldn’t touch it with that license? If I played I wouldn’t want to mention it where I’d have no problem with WoW or AoC.
That’s how it always seemed/felt to me, but maybe we live in enlightened times?
September 6th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
sbs says:
Aw man, I missed the shitstorm. Now I have to wait for the next piracy-thread to satisfy this need.
I fully expected to see an “Angry internet Men”-Tag at the bottom of the post, and I was not disappointed. Hooray for RPS <3
By the way: I found it rather strange that, to me as someone who does not play either WOW or WAR, the Impressions read really positive.
edit: Then again, that may not be strange at all, it actually explains a lot.
September 6th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
shon says:
I am curious if the nasty comments are indicative of the typical WAR player. I find the population of an MMO to be more important than the game sometimes. City of Heroes players for example made up for the game a lot of time, while WoW players often made me consider reading a book.
I am amused by the idea of insulting the Britishness of a reviewer on a game like WAR. Doesn’t being British make you more qualified to review a game based on a British property?
September 6th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Lorc says:
Perhaps it would have gone down better if you’d said “Much like World of Warcraft, it’s fundamentally an Everquest clone”.
Actually, scratch that. There’s not much point in mincing words to avoid offending people who don’t actually read the article.
September 6th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Michael says:
Alec, if you are surprised that knaves behave like knaves, than I am surprised with you.
September 6th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
mooey poo says:
I think is says a lot that Warhammer is frequently abbrieviated to WAR on this post, whereas World of Warcraft retains its unabbrieviated dignity.
September 6th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
kadayi says:
“I don’t think you understand what the word ‘racism’ means.”
He does, but you don’t apparently.
September 6th, 2008 at 3:01 pm
Octaeder says:
@mooey poo:
Try actually reading the article again and actually notice how many times the abbr. WoW is used.
September 6th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Styngent says:
To be perfectly honest, having played WoW for the one month I could stick it without stroking out over boredom I can recognise and sympathise with a fraction of mmo communities seeing it as a derogatory comparison. Having siad that, it doesn’t matter an inch because quite frankly, anyone with a critical head screwed on can see the inspiration of WoW in WaR. From the graphical style to the gameplay (which in all honesty has been seen in more than one mmo) WoW can’t help but heavily influence developers since it pieced together popular elements of current MMOs and through in a pinch of Warcraft legacy to make it the mother of all cash cows. So, in turn, it’s nothing short of insanity to think it wouldn’t get worked into future games.
I’m willing to stab wildly into the darkness and say the anger is more likely derived from the threat to their “niche” status. Like it’s been said in this article, WoW sucks because it’s fun for all the family. In comparing the two games you compare these fat guys in their home made wizard robes to the hardcore, eat their own guts and ask for seconds, mmo gamers who, god forbid, play pop games that require zero skill.
At the end of day, the proof will be in the pudding, so right now all we can do is revel in the ACME land graphics I swear I’ve seen somewhere before.
Good article, hits the nail on the head!
September 6th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Patrick says:
Um. I won’t pretend to have paid any attention so far to this conversation, and I also won’t indicate that I really care much, since I don’t care for MMOs personally and never played Warhammer, but my primary objection to the statement “Warhammer Online is a WOW clone!” is that Warcraft, all the way back to the first, was basically just a computer version of Warhammer the tabletop mini game. I always found it quite shocking that Blizzard didn’t get their little pants sued off.
So, you know. Credit where credit’s due - maybe it’s a clone because the existing thing stole the source material.
September 6th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Inhocmark says:
It’s like being compared to WoW is bad or something. WoW managed staggering subscription numbers because they did something right. I was no Warcraft fan when I started playing WoW but that didn’t stop the game from being awesome.
WoW is an evolutionary step in MMO development and any game following it will always borrow what worked from it.
September 6th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Nny says:
Omg, this page seems not to use any styles at all under Chrome and looks hideous - please fix! 
EDIT: Funnily enough, just as I posted it, Chrome displayed the css - you guys are great ;).
September 6th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Apollo says:
As you admitted yourself, the RvR was sparce in the UK beta. This is problematic as that IS the game. Some of the described angst my have been due to an attempt at a game review that only focused in on what most would consider to be the packaging in which the real gameplay is to be found. This is flawed as the article was merely your “impressions” and not an all out attempt at a review.
September 6th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Heliocentric says:
i see wow and war have positive traits. But they are both designed as all mmo’s, like abusive relationships. They treat you badly and make you think its normal, or worse your own fault.
September 6th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
onkellou says:
Very good article, but I am not sure about the “cool” factor, either. The Warhammer franchise makes even Dungeons & Dragons look like base-jumping, I’d say. While hugging sharks.
September 6th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
I could well be wrong, but I think in the wider world’s eyes WAR and Games Workshop will seem oddly disassociated. Even I often forget that it’s GW-related while playing it - it’s much more about being The Next Big Fantasy MMO than it is about being A Warhammer Game.
September 6th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
brog says:
I had to look quite closely to figure out which of the screenshots in that article was the WoW one.
In fact, I’m still not 100% sure. They all look very similar and very WoW-ish. It’s the last one right? Or is it the third one? I haven’t played either game, so perhaps it’s obvious to those who have.
September 6th, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Rudolf says:
I just have to say, I really love your style of writing. And while this arcticle is a meta commentary disguised as an article, I still read it and it feels worthwile. You could be writing about dishwashers, I’d probably still read it.
That said, fanboys will be fanboys will be…you get the idea. The interesting bit here is that a lot of those now bashing any comparison to WoW probably were hardcore WoW players themselves, which quit the game and now harbor hard feelings. These feeling bubble to the top now and again. Still no excuse to assume the English drink tea, whoever came up with that idea? =) …probably from the Asterix comics 
September 6th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
Styngent says:
Apollo - it’s painfully obvious RvR isn’t just the game otherwise you’re stating that the RPG and elements out of the PvP battlefield are just worthless.
Not only this, but the same claims were made about Dark Age of Camelot RvR, only to find that in game a lot of the lower level PvP stuff wasn’t worth bothering with it was so unrewarding and late game you could only compete in an elite group and while in possesion of the best equipment. To get to these levels you need hours of prep work while not directly competing with players. Hence, developers make a profit by charging per month. Without this “grind time” the mmo genre falls on it’s ass. It either burns out to quickly or no one wants to play it because there is no hard work involved in making your player different/better/worse than anyone elses.
September 6th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
BaronTwelve says:
Of course WAR is like WoW, they are both big mmos made in the same decade!
September 6th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Nick says:
Damn British with your good looks and your oversized sexual organs.
Charming devils the lot!
¬_¬
September 6th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Mark Stephenson says:
Warhammer cool? Bwah-ha-ha!
Oh seriously? Fat nerds into their Chemical Romances with Iron Maidens?
I don’t think there’s been such a serious miscalcultion of core market since 2000AD kidded themselves they had an audience of hip hop DJ dance heads.
Warhammer fans are below Furries on the cool scale.
I’d still rather have a pint with one of them than a furry but cool … no that’s a stretch too far.
September 6th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Paul S says:
Sweet sexy Jesus. I just had a wander through the comments on that beta piece you did. I’m looking forward to WAR, but if that’s the community…
September 6th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Dorian Cornelius Jasper says:
I wasn’t here when the shit-fan-convergence occurred, but apparently there were still a few stragglers in the other thread up until a few hours ago. I wonder if those poor, angry, angry internet men are too emotionally wounded to try reading the follow-up.
Which, of course, is just a polite way of saying I’d like to catch, if not another great fan-frenzy, then at least the aftershocks. Not to jinx your servers or anything, I just hate being left out.
I wonder how many WAR beta-testers have ever kneaded out their own globs of the green stuff? Do they properly store their leftover globs in the freezer for longevity? Do they realize that what I’m talking about isn’t the least bit indecent–except possibly in some parts of Wyoming and Utah?
I’m not quite sure what to make of the idea of WAR having a wide fanbase not the least bit interested in the Warhammer franchise at large. And I’m not even that old. I think.
EDIT: And Mark, I reject your coolness and replace it with my own! I’ll have you know, all the sexy kids say cardigans are the new Havarti.
September 6th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Put it this way: how many people signed up for Age of Conan because they were Conan fans? Or even WoW because of Warcraft?
September 6th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Snarf says:
I signed up for AOC because after 3 years of WoW i was seriously bored of it. Had done most of the End Game (went into SWP a few times), and really couldnt be arsed with WoW any longer. Most of our WoW guild is gonna try WAR, the starting areas have 10 times more character than WoW’s and its something new. I dont care that it takes aspects from WoW, aslong as it’s the good ones. I want something new, with new mechanics and fun PvP, hopefully WAR will delivery. AOC certainly didnt. Oh and Goths getting angry when called emo isnt to do with the fact of being unique, it’s being linked with crap music :p
September 6th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Butler` says:
Warhammer raging fanboy/nerds rock.
September 6th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
I don't understand this comment system says:
MMORPGs are a plague upon the industry, much like the FMV games of the mid 90s.
September 6th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
friday says:
Your impressions about beta article actually sparked my interest in the game. Before I read it I was just brushing it off as another mmo that was going to suck. The one thing that pissed me off a little bit was when the developers said they were not trying to compete with WoW, like then what are you doing? Trying to make a shit game?
September 6th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Garreth says:
Maybe I’m making a massive judgement error here (and clearly I have) but I would have expected a group of people who have the patience stand around a table for hours taking turns to charge small models at one another (not that I have anything against that) would be slightly less angry about comparing WoW and WAR when they are both based, to a certain degree, on the same thing.
September 6th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
meeper says:
I’ll agree that FMV games were a plague on the industry, but I hardly think MMORPGs fall into that category. Nobody truly enjoyed the FMV games, yet millions enjoy MMORPGs 
September 6th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
mateo says:
It’s simply further proof of John Gabriel’s Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory. What amazes me the most is how people will make such a big deal about how different the games are, when the similarities vastly outweigh the differences. But then, people do that about all kinds things, including other people (hello racism and homophobia), so I suppose I should stop being surprised.
September 6th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Willem says:
How about you drink some pee-flavoured tea, Alec? PEEEEEEE
TEEEEEAAAA
>: |
September 6th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Jayof9s says:
Clearly the real issue is that today no one seems to understand the difference between ‘being critical’ and just being plain insulting. And so gamers especially seem to take any critical writing of their favorite new fixation (even if its only critical in their eyes), whichever game it might be and instead of saying “huh, that’s a valid point” or even just accepting it as some nutters opinion its; ZOMG U HATES WAR U HATE ME!!!!1One (substitute war for halo or some other horrid fps that people play for no apparent reason when there are dozens of good alternatives or any other game really.)
September 6th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Will Tomas says:
Personally I really disliked the idea of FMV games and although one or two were okay I agree that they blighted the industry - it was patent cheating. However some people do seem to have absolutely adored them - as the number of comments on Eurogamer’s review of MGS4 shows.
September 6th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
Joseph says:
Bottom line is, WAR is a WOW clone, and there is no amount of bitching that it’s already vocal fanboys can do to change the game. Having played the beta now, the game is a carbon copy of World of Warcraft with a splash of new, non-innovative ideas thrown on top to make it seem shiney.
September 6th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Noc says:
Hmm.
I think the sticking point here is that comparing a game to WoW involves tacitly saying that it’s a “WoW clone.” Being an anything clone is a bit of a dismissal; I mean, just think about all the times we’ve heard “Oblivion with Guns” tossed about recently. It doesn’t matter if “Oblivion with Guns” would actually be a really cool game or not . . . if it’s “just another clone” it, in a sense, doesn’t count. It’s “just a spinoff,” and it lacks the legitimacy of a more original title.
More pragmatic observers, including yourselves, it sounds like, aren’t entirely concerned with this. If at the end of the exercise, you’re left with a better game (or even a game that better fills a different niche), then all is well. But pragmaticism has little to do with fandom; you don’t really become a “fan” of something (much less a “fanboy”) because you experienced it and thought it was pretty good, really. Fandom is about pride and tacit ownership, and dismissal, even implied dismissal, strikes pretty deeply at that.
And it’s even worse if the dismissal is something that’s so believable. Which is, honestly, because there are several really big knobbly grains of truth wedged in the center. You folks’ve listed a ton of them. But the problem is that the idea that WAR is just (or even mostly) like WoW is such a believable idea. If I went up to anyone I knew and said “Well, I played the beta, and WAR’s pretty much like WoW,” they’d shrug and say “Alright, that’s what I thought.” It’s a very believable position to take, and it’s a dismissal. That right there is a recipe for a sore spot.
[Edit: the fellow who simulposted me is an excellent example of this. It's not a matter of people not liking the game; it's a matter of the dismissal, in many people's eyes, being so self-evident. In the manner of "You're stupid to think otherwise." It's a little silly to ignore all the similarities too, neither side is really being reasonable, are they?]
It’s like . . . I play PnP RPGs. And every so often, among people unfamiliar with the process, the subject comes up. And they say something about silly people running around parks with foam swords and wizard hats, and I feel compelled to point out that I am not a fucking LARPer. It’s not even that I’ve any personal distaste for the practice (certainly not enough to warrant the expletive), it’s just that the sentiment feels like a dismissal, and consequentially that’s an image I want to distance myself from.
Run that through the filter of the Internet, and factor in people not approaching things with a critical mind, and you get what you’ve got.
September 6th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
kenoxite says:
Wait… aren’t goth and emos the same?
Oh! *snap*
September 6th, 2008 at 6:57 pm
Radiant says:
WoW is to WaR what Coldplay is to MGMT http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtUI5MC9tVM
September 6th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Gerfervonbob says:
Whats with the jab at Coldplay? Not cool, you’ve hurt my feel bads!
September 6th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
malkav11 says:
I think it’s basically just that a lot of people who want to play MMOs other than WoW have already played WoW and either disliked it or burned out on it. The suggestion, therefore, that they’re getting the same cake with different frosting is horrifying.
I got similar reactions when I talked about how fundamentally WoW-like LOTRO was, when I was beta-testing that. And while I can’t speak to WAR, LOTRO really is mechanically almost identical to WoW. This is a good thing. It takes all the stuff WoW does right and riffs on that with a new, well-beloved setting and some cool new ideas like monster play and the deed system. But god forbid anyone should acknowledge that/god forbid anyone should recognize that WoW is successful because it does a lot of basic gameplay things entirely right.
I don’t know that it would be accurate to describe WoW as an Everquest clone, though. (This may be slightly hypocritical, I realize.) I mean, yeah, they both have levels, spells, quests, and thwacking things on the head with sticks, but there’s a major paradigm shift between the two. The elements they have in common date back to the earliest games in the genre - MUDs. EQ moves beyond them mostly in adding graphics and upping the scale. WoW fundamentally alters how things work. And yes, I know, the whole Blizzard “polish vs innovation argument”. In this case it’s a bit of both. The basic building blocks Blizzard’s assembled are mostly the same (battlegrounds possibly excepted), but the way they’ve assembled them makes for a radically different, imho vastly better, gameplay experience.
September 6th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
EyeMessiah says:
Angry people on the internet are angry. Just ignore them!
September 6th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Jahkaivah says:
Noc summed it up perfectly.
Yes those comments were unjust knee-jerk reactions because your impression (not a review) was actually a fair one.
But having followed WAR some time myself (don’t think I will get it, but who knows) I know how irritating being told the game is a WoW clone is when the things that really matter are completly differant.
I think we need an unwritten rule that judging a MMO (or even just an online game) by screenshots and Gameplay videos is a very bad idea.
Incidently, has anyone seen Yahtzee’s review of EvE? He produced alot of justified criticisms that some up why you may not want to play the game.
But unfortunatly, he failed to explain the good parts of the game and because of this he deemed it “just like WoW”.
Possibly the last MMO in existance to deserve that title.
I imagine hearing his review is a bit like being told WAR is a WoW clone.
September 6th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
graham says:
LOUD NOISES
September 6th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
EyeMessiah says:
Yahtzee does what it says on the tin though - sometimes in less than 3 minutes. Personally I agree with him about Eve, but in this case I did feel that he was a little harsh (I wouldn’t call my worst enemy a wowclone). But then, that’s what he does!
(Unless we are talking about spore or clear sky) I don’t really need the reviewer to dwell on what is so great about a game as much as I need them to dwell on its faults. When it comes to games I just don’t find that the good stuff “makes up” for the bad.
I bought COD4 on his recommendation, not so much because he said it was very good, but because he said it was very good and not that broken.
September 6th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
ape says:
This has probably been said but most everyone knows that Warcraft is itself a ripoff of Warhammer. I am never one to say the r word but in this case it is true… hmm, but I guess nerd rage is inevitable.
September 6th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
Arnulf says:
I wonder what WAR would have looked like if WOW never (or at least not yet) had happened?
WOW did some things to the MMO world that could be taken for granted now, but were back then quite astonishing. Effectively no zone borders, thus eliminating loading screens when moving through the world. Removing the level grind. Allowing to customize and extend your user interface. And tons of little things more.
What if Games Workshop would have decided to create a Warhammer MMO without prior WOW experience? I dare say that it would have been clunky, and its only appeal would have been the Warhammer setting. That’s just not good enough nowadays.
Believe it or not, WOW set a new standard. And newcomers (and old blokes alike: Mythic/SOE) better take a hard close look at what makes a MMO successful.
September 6th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
Nick says:
Eh, plenty of MMOs had no zone borders before WoW. I’m not sure how it removed level grind… again customizing interface was there before WoW as well.
It wasn’t innovative at all. What it was was very polished, easy to use and well presented which is Blizzard’s trademark.
September 6th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
The Hammer says:
Okay. I’m a huge fan of Blizzard, and a vocal supporter of World of Warcraft here. It’s my favourite game of all time, and the release of WoAoR isn’t going to change that, because it’s less about the games’ mechanics and more about the settings and the players I adventure with. To me, WOW has a better world. I like my orcs with a sense of humility. I don’t want ONLY WAR. I want a chance of peace, I want usually opposing factions working together against even more dangerous foes. I want to find out what happens to Thrall, Jaina, Arthas, Tirion, the Cenarions… basically, I’m absorbed in both the narrative and the community that WOW offers. As an RPer I’m slightly different to the rest of the playerbase (which, I admit, a large amount of them are immature and mean to the extreme), in that these things -will- matter more, but I’m in no way saying that these are views that represent most of WOW’s players.
That aside, y’know, I was reading an article about Fable 2 about how although fantasy is meant to be the most varied of genres, gaming fantasy at least tends to mostly feature orcs, which are Tolkien’s creation, so creativity is often hampered by always using already accepted concepts and symbols.
And this is true in two ways for this issue. Firstly, yes, Warcraft as a franchise is very similar to Warhammer. There is a very strong reason for that. Warcraft: Orc and Humans was going to be a Warhammer RTS until Games Workshop decided they didn’t like what Blizzard were doing, and cancelled their involvement. This was pretty late on in development, and Blizzard, a company that needed to get something out really bloody quickly cobbled together their own lore and modified the least amount of assets they possibly could, and ended up getting this in the shops. As it was a brilliant RTS (what game of Blizzard’s hasn’t been brilliant?), it did well, and Blizzard found themselves with a popular franchise, and GW spent the rest of the years after kicking themselves, in all likelyhood. It’s a bit like the ol’ Nintendo/Sony deal, although this one was based on IP and actual creative worlds than technical malarkey and marketing. But, in the same way that Blizzard took a lot of inspiration from Warhammer (both almost avoidable, and probably on hindsight a wise move), Games Workshop took a lot of inspiration from Tolkien and Gygax and co. Warhammer ain’t original. It’s derivative. Orcs didn’t exist before Tolkien created them. They’re not steeped in folklore, they’re steeped in the mind of one who lived in the 20th century and never thought about getting them patented.
So, Blizzard was always meant to be making a game in the Warhammer world, and that -is- reflected in Warcraft, yes. Over the years however, they have successfully distanced themselves. Night-elves, dragons, redeemed orcs, many new breeds of foes and protagonists, and also a great amount of detailed characters. Gosh. I am really licking ass here.
But, the main point I am trying to make is not about setting, but about those same game mechanics I mentioned before.
Warhammer Online follows the traditional MMO system of both exploration and combat. You have a map. You have an action bar at the bottom full of abilities which you click in order to hurt your foes. Your character’s quality is based not only on “talent” choices, which you gain every level, but also equipment which comes with stats, such as Stamina, Strength, and Agility. You advance through zones as you advance through the levels. A low level character will find higher level zones impossible for PVE, and a high level character will find low level zones pointless. It is not a game wherein strafing, ducking behind obstacles and flanking your opponent is important. You approach your enemy, engage combat, and hope you choose the right abilities, and have the best skillset and armour possible.
It is D&D style mechanics, and right at the minute, it defines roleplaying games. Stat crunching, and how they are related to the world, and the NPCs and quests in the world have changed very little from WOW. THAT is how it is similar, and that is how, from a layman’s point of view, the two games are two peas in a pod.
No matter the RVR combat, no matter the Tome of Reading, no matter the similarities in setting and tone and colours and shapes and what have you. Looking at the interfaces of both games, and playing a battle of both games, and exploring the world of both games is very similar. Cooldowns, hitpoints, class roles… they all feature in Warhammer Online, and they are all in very steep traditional fantasy RPG territory, because that is what has been tried and proven and that is what sells.
Warhammer Online is with World of Warcraft and Everquest in the group of MMOs like that, away from your EVE Onlines and Planetsides. Those are the innovative titles out there, whereas WoAoR, whilst looking lovely, is only innovative in slight areas, invisible to the layman’s eye.
September 6th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
projectmayhem says:
In fairness, all WAR and WOW fans are ubar ghey because they don’t have the l33t skillz of FPS players.
Word to your guild master, bitches.
As a serious point though, I’m someone who’s completely outside of the MMO community. I’ve never really set foot in one, as they don’t appeal to me. If Blizzard went with World of Starcraft I’d sign up immediately, even if it meant the loss of vital organs.
I like the IDEA of MMO’s, but their fantasy-wank setting really doesn’t sit with me at all… and that’s actually the only reason I don’t play ‘em. That and I spent a lot of money on my PC to make sure textures don’t look like that…
…But I digress. My point is actually that I’m surprised at the vitriol WoW is getting. I was under the impression (as an outsider) that WoW was the be-all, end-all god of MMO’s and not having a girlfriend. If it has an entire episode of South park dedicated to it, it HAS to be good, right? Apparently not!
As per the discussion of truely interesting and new mechanics in such games, just wait for ActiBlizzard to get World of Call of Duty going. The MMOFPSRPG, filled with stats padding and double XP bonus weekend bonanza madness.
September 6th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
Elikal Ialborcales says:
I am sorry so many people felt it necessary to attack you. I am a vivid gamer for about 25 years now, and I love my games and MMOs like any other guy, but heck, its damn PIXEL games! Some defend “their” game with the religious zeal like in some MF crusade! I can argue about any detail, but why so many always get aggressive an personal over some trivial HOBBY is beyond me.
I like your writing style, and your humor, guys, so I hope you keep it up! If some people are so aggravated, you obviously must have stung into the right place, innit?
September 6th, 2008 at 10:58 pm
Tamrielo says:
“Warhammer Online is with World of Warcraft and Everquest in the group of MMOs like that, away from your EVE Onlines and Planetsides. Those are the innovative titles out there, whereas WoAoR, whilst looking lovely, is only innovative in slight areas, invisible to the layman’s eye.”
What’s interesting here is that, by and large, the WoWs and WARs of the world are the games that are *popular*.
Successful game development is not just about innovation, it’s about learning from your predecessors and, essentially, giving people more of what they like.
How many times have you completed an excellent game and simply wanted to play more of it? More levels, more character interaction, more everything.
Innovation is only one piece of the pie, and honestly it’s a very small one. People can claim to want something totally new and different, but their purchasing habits and analyses of the actual games they play belie that.
Warhammer Online is derivative of World of Warcraft, which is derivative of Everquest, which is derivative of multiplayer RPGs like Baldur’s Gate and Icewind Dale, which are directly inspired by pen-and-paper Dungeons and Dragons, which is, when distilled, simply a storytelling device, and stories have been told for thousands of years.
September 6th, 2008 at 10:58 pm
Dorian Cornelius Jasper says:
Alec: Well, you’re right. Still makes me feel old, though.
Tamrielo: Mentally, I translated that as…
“Warhammer Online is derivative of World of Warcraft, which is derivative of Everquest, which is derivative of multiplayer RPGs like Baldur’s Gate and Icewind Dale, which are directly inspired by pen-and-paper Dungeons and Dragons, which is, when distilled, simply a rip-off of Tolkien.”
September 6th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Jahkaivah says:
@Tamrielo
This is where WAR fans get irritated, you say “Warhammer Online is derivative of World of Warcraft”, what you mean to say is “Warhammer Online is a derivative of Dark age of Camelot”.
Because, theres a bit of differance between killing loads of enemy players in large conflicts and organising and carrying out attacks against scripted AIs.
September 6th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
BrokenSymmetry says:
Good remarks, The Hammer. In fact, I didn’t even know that orcs were completely invented by Tolkien, such an inherent part of our fantasy culture they seem.
September 7th, 2008 at 12:20 am
Tamrielo says:
@Dorian
“… which is, when distilled, simply a rip-off of Tolkien.”
See, but Tolkein isn’t the be all end all of fantasy storytelling, either. Tolkein has his inspirations, which have their own inspirations, and so on more or less forever. Everything Tolkein “created” has a direct line to older stories, except *possibly* orcs, and there are even still some parallels there, although arguably he didn’t use them.
@Jahkaivah
“This is where WAR fans get irritated, you say “Warhammer Online is derivative of World of Warcraft”, what you mean to say is “Warhammer Online is a derivative of Dark age of Camelot”.
Because, theres a bit of differance between killing loads of enemy players in large conflicts and organising and carrying out attacks against scripted AIs.”
No, I said what I meant. The parallels between WoW and WAR are much more prevalent than the parallels between WAR and DAoC.
Certainly WAR and DAoC offer Realm-versus-Realm combat which differentiates them from the more small-group oriented PvP of WoW, but saying that WAR draws more from DAoC than WoW is incorrect. WAR has its share of PvE (what you call “attacks against scripted AIs”), and WoW has its share of PvP (Arena and battlegrounds, against enemy players). The difference is largely the focus, but there is no denying that WAR draws heavily from WoW.
Just because something is derivative doesn’t make it bad. The best and most successful inventions in the world are almost universally the *second* ones of that type, because (as I mentioned above) innovation isn’t everything.
There *isn’t* very much difference between killing loads of enemy players in large conflicts and carrying out attacks against scripted AI, if what you’re talking about is programming (assuming multiplayer infrastructure exists on the scale you need). The basic, core mechanics are still nearly identical, just the targets are different. Everything after that is balance (which is no small task, mind you).
September 7th, 2008 at 12:28 am
EyeMessiah says:
projectmayhem says:
“In fairness, all WAR and WOW fans are ubar ghey because they don’t have the l33t skillz of FPS players.”
BOOM! HEADSHOT!
September 7th, 2008 at 1:01 am
J.A. says:
I don’t dislike Coldplay because they sell a lot of records, I dislike them because they make terrible, bland music I am forced to endure from the radio during worktime! No, give me Fugazi, give me Black Flag, give me Okkervil River! Save us from slick Apple commercials, give us powerful imagery and important issues with amazing music on top!
In all topic-related seriousness: I think a lot of the anger stems from old rage. Can you folks remember back when WAR was first announced?
Some said: It’s a WoW-killer!
Others said: It’ll be great!
Most said: WoW ripoff!
Over the past few years during the development of this game, there’s been a steadily growing fanbase supporting this game, bravely fighting off all doubters, sneering at forumites from all the game forums in the world: “You don’t know it’s a WoW clone, you haven’t played it!” All along not even grasping to the hope that WAR isn’t a WoW clone, but believing in it as a zealot believes in his God.
And then comes hopping along the “reviewers” of RPS, whose words they’ve been reading in pauses from defending their precious game, and says within the first couple of sentences: “This is WoW!” (naturally you didn’t but that seems to be the general fanboy perception).
They’re hurt, confused and soon turn to anger, posting wildly about soppy british tea, bad teeth and, uh, masturbation, for some reason.
September 7th, 2008 at 1:24 am
Major McMuffin says:
1) It is pretty much impossible to discuss a MMO without mentioning WoW, it being the industry leader. All other MMOs just have to reconcile the fact that their market is essentially already playing WoW.
2) The British may drink a lot of tea, but I’m convinced that we Irish drink more tea per person.
3) Once (if) the Pokémon MMO is released, all other games will be swept up by it, so this discussion will ultimately become moot.
September 7th, 2008 at 1:38 am
Bhlaab says:
I once accidentally walked into a hobby shop thinking it was a craft/art supply store and I have to tell you that Warhammer is not at all cool.
September 7th, 2008 at 3:02 am
Dean says:
Those throwing criticisms at you guys are either those that played WoW and burned out on it, so now dismiss it as a boring ‘grind’ - in which case you can’t help but point out how much they must have enjoyed WoW to start with to have spent 500+ hours playing it.
Or they’re people that never played WoW and have chosen to hate it because of what it represents or on principle because it’s so successful. They obviously hate the comparison because the fact is there are similarities and frankly if you like one of the games, there’s a high chance you’d like both. But they don’t want to believe that they might actually like WoW if they tried it, so have to maintain that they’re totally different.
I doubt there’s many that get upset that just played WoW a bit, figured it wasn’t for them and moved on after a month.
And it’s interesting because for both the aforementioned groups, if it wasn’t a fair bit like WoW they wouldn’t play it. Not that they’ll ever admit it. If it was a hardcore Korean-style grind they wouldn’t like it. If it were an EVE-like player-driven open world they wouldn’t like it. If it were more twitch and action-based they wouldn’t like it.
The actual gameplay mechanics on a micro level have to be similar to what’s already been done to attract people and give an air of familiarity. Where it differs is is on the macro level. Total War’s skirmishes are similar to Command and Conquer on a basic level. There’s a different flavour, different scale, but the basic mechanics are the same - select units, move them around, send them at enemy, certain units counter others. But beyond that they’re hugely different games.
So with WAR and WoW, the difference being that in MMOs you don’t really see the big picture and notice the big changes until the endgame.
September 7th, 2008 at 4:26 am
Ben Abraham says:
Great piece Mr Meer. Onwards and upwards for the good ship RPS!
September 7th, 2008 at 4:33 am
Doug F says:
mateo: or for a more topical bit of PA…
More like World of Warhammer. Online. Craft.
September 7th, 2008 at 4:35 am
CoS says:
I’m playing WAR right now, and I didn’t think you’re review was negative. WoW comparisons are inevitable. It’s Coke and Pepsi…
September 7th, 2008 at 5:20 am
xeno says:
Frankly, I hope it’s exactly like WoW, only PvP. Then it’ll leech all the assholes away from World of Warcraft and leave a game that’s actually fun to play.
September 7th, 2008 at 5:58 am
Nick says:
It wasn’t a review.. how hard is it.. *hair falls out*
September 7th, 2008 at 6:53 am
sigma83 says:
Personally, I’m still anti-WAR for the simple reason that it wasn’t 40k online. To me they just missed the single greatest opportunity to niche carve since the invention of single layer velcro.
I cannot think of a single reason (but am entirely happy to be enlightened) for choosing Warhammer over 40k that isn’t to do with the fact that it would sell better.
The inevitable World of StarCraft (let’s face it, it is coming) is going to be both niche AND fun, and will end up selling even more cause of both.
Massive opportunity wastage imo.
September 7th, 2008 at 8:05 am
Björn says:
You really should have compared WAR to some Warhammer MUD*. I’m sure the term MUD would have confused and angered many of the Angry Internet Men!
* Googling shows that there used to be one called Wolfenburg, which was endorsed by Games Workshop, but it looks like there was a falling out or something. Perhaps the WAR publishers didn’t want any other games endorsed by GW.
September 7th, 2008 at 9:53 am
sinister agent says:
Hmm. So the formula is “wow warhammer piracy fallout”. We’re getting there, lads!
September 7th, 2008 at 9:53 am
Abriael says:
I’m not surprised to see so many people angry at an article that iterates the comparison between Warhammer Online and WoW so many times. Sorry my friends, I don’t feel much sympathy for that for the simple reason that such comparison is quite improper in many ways.
Sure, Warhammer Online shares WoW’s mechanics in the same way as WoW has milked other previous games of theirs. But that’s most definately not a reason to deem Warhammer Online similar to WoW more than it’s similar to DAOC, Everquest, LOTRO or to any other fantasy MMORPG with a classic approach to combat.
You say that Warhammer being RvR oriented brings it in a “slightly” different direction. No, I’m sorry. It doesn’t. It brings it in a COMPLETELY different direction compared to WoW. While WoW’s PvE is entirely grind and farm based (or better, it’s Blizzard farming it’s players) with an entirely meaningless (and still grind/farm based) PvP thinly painted on top of it, Mythic did their best to avoid the grind as much as possible both in PvP and PvE (and even in crafting), expecially with an extreme variety in content (both PvE and PvP) and with the ability of exping entirely in RvR (fully, from level 1 to level 40, if one wants. RvR isn’t just a matter of endgame like some think, and is just as efficent as a leveling way as PvE), This not to mention that the RvR campaign has a completely different scope that WoW’s meaningless and honestly boring PvP. And that’s the core of the game. Sorry that you guys didn’t get to try it properly, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.
It’s a 100% different approach to how the game is played.
Not even the art is similar. It’s quite improper to say that whatever doesn’t have an hyperrealistic style (like AoC’s for instance) can be defined cartoonish. While WoW purposedly imitates a late 20th century amercan cartoon (like Masters of the Universe or Prince Valiant), Warhammer’s style is clearly inspired from illustrations, GW’s illustrations to be precise. And to say GW’s illustrations have any similarity to He-Man would be quite funny to say the least.
War -> Complex models
WoW -> Simple models
War -> Texture design oriented towards detail
WoW -> Texture design purposedly simplified, with a lot of flat color areas
War -> Realistic equipment and armor
WoW -> Extremely overexaggerated armor, with immense shooulders and lots of bling
War -> Varied but not overly saturated color palette
WoW -> Extremely saturated color palette
Almost every element in the art style of the two games goes in entirely opposite directions. It’s like comparing Dragonball to Spawn because they’re both drawn on paper.
having short beardy dwarfs and green orcs isn’t really enough to make them the same or even similar.
There are plenty other difference across the board, that, IMHO, far outweight any similarity. Which one is better is a matter of taste, even if personally, after seeing the 4.1 version in the last couple days on the US preview Weekend plus, I can definately say that Warhammer went over WoW by a notch or two in basically every aspect of the game (in addition to the ones in which it already was superior to the competitor by a landslide, like PvP).
So yeah, if you compare Manowar to Tokyo Hotel, some are gonna laugh it off, some are gonna shrug and walk the other way and some are gonna be irritated.
September 7th, 2008 at 9:56 am
Meat Circus says:
@Abriael:
Sure, Warhammer Online shares WoW’s mechanics in the same way as WoW has milked other previous games of theirs. But that’s most definately not a reason to deem Warhammer Online similar to WoW more than it’s similar to DAOC, Everquest, LOTRO or to any other fantasy MMORPG with a classic approach to combat.
Um, I can’t think of a *better* reason to deem the two games ’similar’. Angry Internet Men should learn what words mean.
BTW, being similar to the most successful MMO in existence is only really an insult if you share the opinion that being a MMO fan is gaming’s equivalent of being in a violent, abusive relationship that you never end because you’re periodically told “I love you”.
September 7th, 2008 at 10:14 am
Okami says:
I think that the angry internet men really made a difference. After reading all their fair and fact based arguments brought forward in such a polite and intellectual way, I’m really looking forward to spending time in an online world populated by them. They did their religion of coice a great service.
All hail the angry internet men!
September 7th, 2008 at 10:19 am
The Hammer says:
Oh, so taking part in RvR does not grant you points which, when you have culiminated enough, let you upgrade your gear and stats?
RvR might be a major change in terms of the subgenre of Fantasy Level-Based MMORPGs With Goblins In Them, but it is not a major change for the MMOs as a whole. It’s minor, and is a recycled formula from Camelot. It may indeed influence future Fantasy Level-Based MMORPGs with Goblins In Them Or Maybe Space Marines If We’re Thinking Outside The Box, but again, this is a sub-genre of quite conservative, D&D style gaming on a wider scale.
No one is saying this game, mechanics wise, is more similar to WOW than it is is to Camelot. Sure, WOAOR probably is more similar, but Camelot isn’t the most popular MMO on the market right now. Camelot does not have a similar setting to WOAOR. WOW does. That is why people are making the comparison too, because the settings are similar. Again, we come back to the layman’s point of view, and as WOW has appealed to a lot of laymen, then it’s understandable that these laymen might make the comparison much more strongly.
Additionally, games can be similar to more than one of their peers. Half Life 2, with its aliens, is similar to Halo, and with its geekiness, to Deus Ex. Making one comparison is not akin to negating the others, and when you have an elephant in the room in WOW, it’s pretty impossible not to talk about Blizzard’s money maker.
And the art style IS similar. Saying “similar” is not saying “the same.” Exxagerated limbs and heads for the small goblin characters. Similar builds to the orcs, and dwarves. The same kind of snowy mountain/enchanted forests/desolate wasteland/underground city archetypes of regions. Yes, it has been desaturated, and yes, the models are more complex, but the former doesn’t negate the silhouettes, and the latter comes from this game coming out four years after WOW, and the development team evidently deciding that they can take the risk of boosting the necessary system specs. It’s a bit like saying that Timesplitters 2 doesn’t look like Timesplitters 1 because the graphics are better. Or maybe Morrowind doesn’t look like Oblivion. This is a given, but not an extensive given.
September 7th, 2008 at 10:21 am
myname says:
thanks for taking the bull by the horns - i agree with the observations WOW/WAR. Noone likes their love to be scorned
September 7th, 2008 at 10:31 am
Meat Circus says:
I think all this talk has pretty much helped me make up my mind to skip this year’s slate of MMOs.
I was going to pick up Conan and/or Warhammer in the first half 2009 games lull. However, I just don’t think they’re *enough* of an incremental improvement to make it worth my while.
If WoW was the epitome of MMORPG 1.0, WAR and AoC are aiming for MMORPG 1.5. Unfortunately, I’m looking for MMORPG 2.0.
Guess I’m waiting for Age of Darkness or The Secret World or APB or The Agency or Champions then, to see if any of those deliver.
September 7th, 2008 at 10:42 am
Gap Gen says:
Abriael: As Meat Circus says, that was exactly what RPS said. So I’m not sure why you felt the need to say it again, but as if you were disagreeing with them.
September 7th, 2008 at 10:44 am
JM says:
I’m just not sure why you’re surprised that your “beta review” of a PVP game that basically ignored PVP was given abuse.
September 7th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
BECAUSE IT WASN’T A REVIEW.
And I wasn’t surprised, in the same way I’m not surprised about your comment.
September 7th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
Myros says:
Im with Meat Circus on this one. Nothing recently or upcoming in the near future has anything appealing for me. They all seem to offer the same things Ive done over and over … and over and over … etc
Oh I might give football manager live a try though, no swords and spider hunts in that one at least
M
September 7th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Meat Circus says:
@Myros:
In the meantime, we have Spore. Massively single player win.
I note with some interest Walker’s Purple Tentacle and Brian the Bunny creatures.
September 7th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Jahkaivah says:
@Tamrielo
You lost me… if WoW is “mostly PvE” then is derivative is EQ which is “Mostly PvE”,
If WAR is “Mostly RvR” than its derivative is Daoc which is “Mostly RvR”.
Thats how I see it.
@Meat Circus
Heh is it me or has your opinion of WAR actually improoved? I recall you ruling it off as a “WoW Clone” before now, not “MMORPG 1.5″.
Nevertheless I agree with you. I definatly am waiting for MMORPG 2.0 as well, which will hopefully be “EvE without the boredom-factor”.
September 7th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
It’s S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Clear Sky! ARGH You’re all stupid and gay, and British.
I’m starting an online petition about something…
September 6th, 2008 at 2:37 pm