By Kieron Gillen on November 16th, 2008 at 6:38 pm.
Returning from my favourite UK comic con of the year, there’s one thing I really like to do. That’s crash out and order takeaway food. Alas, I have to compile a list of our favourite thinky-head reading of the week for your delectation, while trying to avoid linking to the pop record which I destroyed my voice by screaming the key word when involved in mass indie comics dance-floor-ownage.
- Leigh Alexander writes about a phenomenon which is rarely talked about, but I suspect most of us recognise. Lengthy indecision at the character creation stage. While we all welcome the increased ability to customise our avatar, this is definitely the price.
- Contributing to the bloodbath of the World of Goo 82% Piracy Rate (ish) thread hasn’t been Cliffski’s only contribution to videogame letters this week. He’s also written a postmortem of his experience in making Kudos 2, which is – as is Cliffski’s general style – agreeably candid.
- Ooh – la,la (etc). Jim’s feature about game audio is translated to French. In case we’ve got some non-English speakers reading or something.
- Waitasec.
- More DRM fisticuffs with two new class-action suit against EA about their DRM, in the Sims and Spore.
- Popmatters speaks about Games as a Language System. The concept of games literacy is one of my perennial things I want to thrash a piece about, but never get around to. This makes other people better than me. Man!
- Over at the Guardian, Naomi Alderman’s writes about how her addiction with Diablo II helped her deal with the trauma of living in New York during 9-11. The utilitarian purpose of games is another those perennial things. At least I’ve written about that a few times. We do this for a reason, y’now?
- This is… well, interesting. Leigh Alexander (Who with two posts this week probably deserves some kind of prize) writes about issues of Style and Realism provoked by Kotaku’s earlier post showing an edited version of Faith from Mirror’s Edge tweaked to “Asian standards of beauty”.
- Dave Perry interviews Gabe Newell about getting into the games industry. I just wish this was longer.
- Talking Head’s Once In A Lifetime. The line in question being MY GOD! WHAT HAVE I DONE! If you ever get me in a pub, ask me my theory on what that line’s referencing and how it epitomises the Song’s whole point.
Failed.
16/11/2008 at 18:46 Little Green Man says:
Haven’t heard that song in ages. Thanks Kieron!
16/11/2008 at 18:55 Deathspank says:
god those Japanese dudes…
honestly, i’m really not surprised about the Japs’s response to Mirrors Edge. Just search anything in Japanese google and you’ll see what im mean
[Er, what? - RPS]
16/11/2008 at 19:14 Sum0 says:
As a guy, I’m always a little disgusted when designers stick in big-breasted, scantily clad, flirty women for players to ogle at. Of course it’s demeaning to women, but it’s demeaning to men too, to think that all we care about is shooting shit and starting at 3D models with big tits. Case in point: the irritating demon lass from Dark Messiah, or the token woman on every single RPG game box ever printed.
Give me a female character any day – Alyx Vance being the premier example. I haven’t played Mirror’s Edge, but Faith does seem like a realistic, strong heroine.
(On the other side of the … fence, I prefer JC Denton or even Gordon Freeman over Duke Nukem or Generic Soldier Guy.)
16/11/2008 at 19:21 Jim Rossignol says:
Don’t you talk like that about Generic Soldier guy!
16/11/2008 at 19:23 Ceremony says:
Thanks for the Gabe interview.
16/11/2008 at 19:27 N-Al says:
Heh, whilst (thankfully) I don’t agonise quite as much about my character upon creation as Leigh seems to be doing, I do find – sometimes quite far down the line – that the character I’ve created doesn’t really fit with me anymore.
My first character in Baldur’s Gate, for example, was a plain Lawful Good Fighter who I had grown incredibly bored with by the end of the game. Instead of immediately transferring the character to Baldur’s Gate 2, I found I had to go through BG1 again as a Mage before making the jump to BG2 with him. I ditched my first character in NWN2 as well, before finally settling on a character I liked.
So, I think there’s definitely some truth to wanting to get your character right – for the game, and more importantly, for you.
16/11/2008 at 19:38 The Poisoned Sponge says:
I actually found the most fluid and easy character creation that reaped the greatest results was Mass Effect. I didn’t really spend *that* long making my black handlebar mustachioed Commander Shepard, but through my actions in the game I formed a rather believable and engaging character, at least to me.
16/11/2008 at 20:04 Zuffox says:
Perennial.
16/11/2008 at 20:46 Yhancik says:
Fallout was the first game where I tried to make a character that looks like me… I don’t know why, it felt natural (and it turned out quite well, actually).
Usually I’d play girls.
16/11/2008 at 20:46 Flappybat says:
Good to see Cliffski is doing ok, proof that it’s still possible to be a PC only indie dev without making match three clones.
16/11/2008 at 21:21 KBKarma says:
Well done, Keiron. You’ve frightened the shit out of me.
Just as I opened the post, I was humming Once in a Lifetime.
I hope you enjoy peeking in my window, then going back in time and frightening me.
And I am finally adding Sexy Videogameland to my RSS feeds. Thank you.
16/11/2008 at 21:29 Klaus says:
More DRM fisticuffs…
lol
I’ll spend 30+ minutes on any character creation screen. It’s different for Baldur’s Gate. I’ll just select everything, but then realize I don’t want to be a midget with my Dwarven Cleric and have to be a Elven Cleric and then get annoyed with the Elves as usual and pick a Halfling Cleric all within 2 hours.
Mass Effect took an hour because I realized that your character will be shown at different angles during the game, and my first – while being nice looking from the front and those scant side angles, looked like she was always about to tear up.
I do like playing with monstrosities now and again though.
16/11/2008 at 21:30 Bhazor says:
Its worth mentioning that you can get new haircuts in fallout. From your robot butler no less, dang classy.
16/11/2008 at 21:31 Tei says:
I also hate unrealistic womens on games. Is better to have something like Zoey from L4D of that mirror edge game.
Anyway I like the version made by the fan, is looks better to me.
Anyway Kotaku is not more the center of the internet (nor 4chan or the Wikipedia). I claim the new center of internet (the eye of the storm) is RPS. Thats why I am here, I love to be where things are important.
16/11/2008 at 21:32 Dorian Cornelius Jasper says:
Deathspank: Whatever would that mean, old chum?
On the point of the Faith/Mirror’s Edge article…
But, ultimately, I think I had similar feelings towards the art design for Jade Empire. It was ultimately a question of style over realism, as the article points out. And I actually did twitch a bit when I first saw renders of Faith. Then again, at first glance, I usually assume female characters in video games are designed with a standard of beauty in mind unless they expressly aren’t.
While a lot of the pro-original commenters made some rather disparaging remarks about the edited picture, as well as those who thought the edited picture was more attractive, at first glance it looks like no-one’s pointing out that caucasian female characters often get depicted as supermodel-quality in games according to what they would consider beautiful.
While we can be sure as hell that Faith was not designed as a sex symbol sort of character, it’s still a bit disconcerting that when Asian characters are depicted by Western media their features are rather exaggerated for Asian-ness and don’t match up to what most Asians would consider beautiful. Or, indeed, most Westerners who don’t have presumptions concerning stereotypical Asian appearance or self-image or would consider beautiful, either. This was basically the main reason I never picked up Jade Empire. (The other being that it looked even more simplified than KOTOR, and I’m not putting down money to play am RPG with painfully stereotypical Western-idea Asians if the RPG part doesn’t rock like a mother. Note that many of the female NPCs in Jade Empire were designed for apparent attractiveness in mind, so while these concerns might not be especially valid for Mirror’s Edge they were valid enough here.)
Faith is fine as is, however. She’s there to Run. She kicks ass and just happens to be of Asiatic descent.
But it’s not hard to find depictions of people who are commonly considered to be attractive among Asian women, you just have to google it. Presumably using the terms regarding nationality you’re searching for (Chinese, Korean, Japanese, and so forth) and the word “model” or “idol.” For the Japanese you could also use “gravure.”
I know this opens up a whole ‘nother can of worms concerning overly demanding standards of beauty, but that’s something all cultures suffer from.
If I recall correctly MGS4′s Raging Raven, sans armor, was absolutely gorgeous. And you’ll be hard pressed to find someone who would honestly disagree, “Western,” “Eastern,” or “Antarctican.”
16/11/2008 at 21:33 qrter says:
Once in a lifetime must be one of the very best songs ever made, both musically and lyrically.
The bit that always (and I really do mean every time) makes my eyes well up and my throat hoarse is the watery bit:
It evokes this kind of shouty feeling inside of me, the kind that wants to make me scream “YES THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IT IS LIKE!” at the top of my lungs. And I’m not entirely sure what the ‘IT’ in question actually refers to.
16/11/2008 at 21:41 RichPowers says:
Despite spending way too much time customizing characters, I always end up with unsatisfactory results. Yesterday I booted up The Sims for the first time in six years to revisit the characters I had all but forgotten. My first reaction was, “Wow, every character I’ve designed for this game looks like a complete tool.”
16/11/2008 at 22:02 MetalCircus says:
Who dares foul the name of Duke Nukem?!
Although I agree with your point about female characters. Please start making better feminine heroes please game devs?
16/11/2008 at 22:14 Leeks! says:
Japanified Faith reminds me of Final Fantasy X, all those years ago, where the cutscene renders of characters were supposedly more in-tune with Japanese standards of beauty, and the in-game models had been adjusted to appeal more to North American pig-dogs. Of course, near as I can tell, ‘Japanese standards of beauty’ is basically equal to rounded-out cheekbones and larger eyes, which may or may not be kind of racist.
16/11/2008 at 22:16 Dinger says:
Our epic heroines should look more realistic.
Save the childlike eyes and swollen breasts for low mimesis.
Gabe Newell sure likes DigiPen, doesn’t he?
16/11/2008 at 22:32 Dorian Cornelius Jasper says:
You would think that a style appealing to the “lower,” or popular classes, would have an inherently greater instinctual draw. After all, the assumption between “low” and “high” class in that context presumes the higher requires greater cultural preparedness to accept or “properly” appreciate. And since the dismissal of the low appeal also gives additional weight to the smug, it’s an inherently less egalitarian position.
On the one hand, it’s a bit much to think that a pretty person couldn’t be a hero. On the other it’s a classic case of cultural shallowness to always present the opposite. But you have to admit that Western depictions of Asians tend to be stereotyped to the point where what the West tends to think makes a “pretty Asian” is rather far removed from what over a billion people from that part of the world would consider “pretty.”
Yes, Faith isn’t supposed to be a pretty hero, she’s supposed to be a strong one. Still. The origin of the discussion and the point of the discussion are two entirely different beasts at this point.
16/11/2008 at 22:42 Saflo says:
I’m not sure if I understand you correctly, Dorian, but are you saying Faith is a stereotype because she isn’t stylized?
16/11/2008 at 22:55 Meat Circus says:
Character creation is the best part of an RPG! The more fatuous choices, the happier I am.
16/11/2008 at 23:09 Dorian Cornelius Jasper says:
No, I actually meant to divorce the discussion from Mirror’s Edge seeing as how it’s actually a poor place for it.
Faith shouldn’t factor into the equation because she’s not designed to be a supermodel-type. She’s an athlete. I’d actually brought up Jade Empire a post ago because it’s more obviously appropriate.
The comparison from whence the discussion started is also a poor place to start because she’s obviously stylized when, in fact, I made it pretty clear where to find actual, real women who folks on The East Side Of The Big Green Continent In Risk find attractive. Beautiful, even. Not stylized drawing or depictions, but actual women. Who are “The East’s” benchmark for Unrealistic Standards of Beauty compared to the supermodels and starlets of “The West.”
I also pointed out MGS4 because the Beauty and the Beast unit was designed based on real-life models, all of them ludicrously gorgeous, one in particular who happens to be modeled after Yumi Kikuchi–a model. They happen to fit both Eastern and Western ideals for beauty and there was never a debate about differing cultural standards for beauty there because there was no room for one. However, in Western depictions of Asian women (those expressly meant to be depictions of beautiful Asian women, which is something that Faith was not expressly designed for–hers being strength and motion, see the wing-like tattoo on her face) there is room for debate because instead of depicting the Asian equivalent of the Western supermodels usually depicted in popular works, they choose to depict a stereotype of Asian-ness that’s almost a caricature.
And to repeat myself again, none of this applies to Faith. She’s a poor start for the discussion because she’s not designed as a supermodel type. She’s the strong heroine that the politically correct want, was designed to be that, and has no purpose being included in a discussion on differing cultural perspectives regarding standards of beauty.
(As an aside, I know we’re all an intellectual bunch here, but let’s not kid ourselves in thinking that the inherently unfair depiction of beauty and women doesn’t exist for some instinctual reason. The same reason we’ll never turn heads the way Brad Pitt might.)
I hope this suffices as a clarification.
16/11/2008 at 23:11 Erlam says:
Frankly, I think we need more plain heroes in general. More Gordon Freeman’s/Alyx Vances, less whatever the Grays of War guy is/Lara Croft’s.
Mirror’s Edge girl is close to that, but (mostly due to the parkour stuff) is still.. well, more attractive than average.
16/11/2008 at 23:22 Dorian Cornelius Jasper says:
Yes, that’s true. It’s more refreshing seeing relatable heroes (of either gender) than the usual easily-marketable array of unrealistically depicted protagonists.
My point actually had little to do with increasing the prettiness in heroes (I was only contrasting that perspective with another for the sake of setting my tone), but mostly about the perception of beauty between two cultures and how, on more than one occasion, stereotype enters play in coloring that perception when one culture takes a peek outside.
Which, I think, is also a bit closer to the heart of the matter in the article itself.
16/11/2008 at 23:42 Jive says:
Can everyone please stop slagging off GenericToughSpaceMarine(tm)?
Some of us like pretending to be future army dudes, even though we’re not 14 years old.
16/11/2008 at 23:47 Gorgeras says:
I remember that Jean Reno in Leon had a small pot-belly and looks like a commoner. The closest game comparison would be Agent 47, but despite not being ugly or handsome, he still looks ethereal. That’s what I like about the style of the game: everyone around him is either definately ugly or definately beautiful, but they are small, wordly and normal. He is the only average person, but elevated to supremacy by his quirks. He’s a clone, has a number and barcode, but he’s the only unique and special person.
I’m half-expecting it to be revealed in Hitman 5 that he actually is an escaped mental patient and that his original escape was not from a clone lab disguised as a psychiatric hospice but a genuine psychiatric hospice. Everything he has experienced since is a mix of delusion and real events as he’s evaded capture.
17/11/2008 at 00:02 Matt says:
Are not models often chosen because they look odd and unusual themselves? They stand out because their features stand out in an unusual that satisfies some animal part of our brain and not because they conform to some cultural norm. I really don’t think that softening Faith’s features and giving her huge tracts of land is something that only appeals to the Japanese.
Deliberately making ugly characters seems like a good idea for game branding IP technicians. Yuna from that Final Fantasy game has mismatched eyes and slightly mongoloid facial structure. Max Paine looked like the most painfully constipated man to ever not exist.
17/11/2008 at 00:13 Dorian Cornelius Jasper says:
It’s as much that people are willing to admit that softening features and exaggerating others creates appeal as much as it is an issue of cultural difference.
I suspect a number of people who derided the second picture honestly thought the edit made Faith more attractive. The whole exercise, with regards to Mirror’s Edge, only being moot because Faith isn’t designed to be a sex symbol but an action hero. However, there’s a large number of people ridiculing the second picture and anyone who could conceivably prefer it. And I wonder if they only did so in order to look more smugly upon their perceived lessers.
And say what you will about models looking odd, unusual, or striking. They still have to conform to a cultural norm of beauty at the baseline requirement for the job, the “quirks” in appearance are bonuses to the resume, as it were.
17/11/2008 at 00:27 Matt says:
Yes, some people just look more attractive to most people than others but asking an artist to draw a generically attractive woman will not give you the next supermodel. I’m pretty sure that a lot of whatever we find attractive about women (or men) is hard wired into us and most of the men (or women) who go out the way to say how much they dislike some character with a stereotypical attractive appearance are being a little hypocritical.
I think that ugly people do have more character. Like faking sincerity, if you can fake ugliness while being beautiful then is the world yours.
17/11/2008 at 00:39 tmp says:
More accurately it boils down to childish features (round face, large eyes) combined with body of adult –and well developed– woman. Don’t think there’s anything racist about noting that, it’s simply type of aesthetics that seems to be common in both comics and animations over there.
On the other hand on the western side of world this exact kind of aesthetics pretty much turns a character into blatant jailbait. So not surprising there’s more wariness about having this sort of character in one’s work.
17/11/2008 at 01:01 Dorian Cornelius Jasper says:
Matt: Wise words that somehow ring true to my cynical ears. Well said. (You can’t accuse Spider Jerusalem of being pretty, but you can charge him of the crime of being filled with too much character for one man to handle.)
And Tmp: I’m reminded of a study, I can’t remember if I read it online or saw a piece on it on a television news magazine program, where scientists tested the reactions of men and boys of various ages to pictures of women and girls of various ages. All across the board the most positive reactions were to girls around the age of 17. “Positive” covering a wide range of reactions of varying intensity, but the nature of the reaction probably has a lot to do with the age of the male subject in question.
I think Japanese media is just more blatant about going for hard-wired, instinctual appeal than the more opinionated Western onlookers are comfortable with. And since intellectual culture isn’t fond of acknowledging human attraction outside of media involving paintings of nude women with depictions of urns or draperies nearby, it was probably rather easy for commenters to look down on “low appeal.”
And back to Matt: Yes, it’s quite true that what people consider attractive is hard-wired, both for men as well as women. Personal preference due to genetic disposition as well as upbringing will always tweak the “preference settings,” but there’s a human commonality there that a lot of people don’t like to acknowledge.
17/11/2008 at 01:42 Cooper says:
Whilst I have my niggles about the linguistic turn (in that it tends to reduce objects of socio-cultural analysis to various textual forms, which can be restrictive) that was an interesting piece.
What I find more intersting than an excuse to treat yet another cultural form as a text, is the common knowledges, languages if you will, between games players. Whilst each play-through of a game can be said to be a text written in that games languages – sure – it is the shared languages outside of individual games that I find fascinating.
Not only the words and abbreviations, such as frag, FPS, RTS etc. which makes us sound jargonistic to others. But that material-semiotic knowledge of gameplaying. Not quite language and textual only; it’s the affects of the crosshair in the centre of the screen, the platforms, ledges and baddies, the spaceships and lasers which can be represented in a minimal number of pixels (See: http://armorgames.com/play/841/grid16) which result in a material, more-than-language response in the way we engage with the game and the computer.
I guess Rom Check Fail made this explicit to many people. That we have stored all this knowledge in regards to certain forms of gametype, and that knowledge is not game specific, and it’s only partially conscious.
We can switch so fluently and quickly between game archetypes and their related mechanisms, in response to the languages of various gaming acrchetypes, even just a matter of a few dozens of pixels.
It’s partially a pavlovian muscle memory, but it treads that strange line, that realm between a textual, representational world of games – one which has all sorts of complicated social and cultural roots and dynamics, but with an affectual, semi- and non-conscious, material response.
Whilst these shared knowledges are to be enjoyed, and are quite impressive, it’s hard not to wonder if the evolution of these representational/material responses to game types has limited what games can be. Since various archetypes are so thoroughly entrenched, it becomes difficult to move beyond or do something different. Games which require a whole new approach to the game world representations and the material interactions with mouse, keyboard, controller (and, or course, the other forms of interface which we have not seen because of the dominance of those three) anything which challenges that is likely to be too ‘abstract’ or just plain difficult.
That being said, the Wii did well, despite somewhat doing away with precisely those material-semiotic game knowledges that Nintendo themselves were so central in producing.
There’s an article in all that there, somwehere.
17/11/2008 at 01:50 tmp says:
Would chalk up lot of that to legal differences and climate — when the basic law sets age of consent at 13 (it’s been up to individual prefectures to override that) this can create quite different attitude towards the subject, and also much more wriggle room to make one’s bucks. Or yens, for that matter. In similar manner but to opposite effect… keep punishing and brow-beating people for enough decades about something, and lot of instincts can be overriden or augmented with self-policing buried so deep one might not even be aware it’s there.
17/11/2008 at 02:09 tmp says:
Incidentally. It is quite amusing to read opinions in the original Kotaku article, where the 2nd option is frequently chosen on basis of ‘hotter face’. When you consider that facial structure and proportions of original Faith come very close to this lady…
http://teens.aol.com/entertainment/trail-of-kisses-alba-hartley
facing its own 10 year younger rendition this is apparently not hot enough for the average intraweb, anymore. Can read whatever you want from it.
17/11/2008 at 02:31 Quater says:
I tend to just play as myself in role-playing games. I pick the kind of dialogue choices I probably would choose in real life, and I act like myself. I can’t think of a situation in which it would be especially appealing or entertaining to try and be an asshole. I find it perfectly easy enough to act like a dick in real life, thanks very much.
Of course, my policy of trying to insert myself into the game as much as possible can backfire somewhat in games like Fight Night Round 3, where I witness my nose being smashed inward, or The Godfather, where my pale Irish complexion appears totally miscast among a family of swarthy guinea wiseguys.
Oh, and you guys really need to find out what good song lyrics really are. I’m not saying David Byrne isn’t a talented guy, but there’s nothign difficult about writing his style of disjointed, impressionistic song lyrics. Your mind makes up for the fact that they’re only just this side of gibberish by filling in the blanks. There is a certain knack to it, but it ain’t poetry. On the other hand…
Then I took the dust of a long, sleepless night, and I put it in your little shoe
And then, I confess that I tortured the dress that you wore for the world to look through…
Bonus points if you know who wrote that. The real master.
17/11/2008 at 02:39 Quater says:
Also: “Faith shouldn’t factor into the equation because she’s not designed to be a supermodel-type.”
have you seen what most supermodels look like? They look really weird. Most of them aren’t really beautiful in a sexually attractive way, rather in a striking, boldly stylistic and aesthetically interesting way. Doesn’t that sound like Faith to you? If anything, she looks more like a supermodel than, say, Lara Croft, who looks more like a Hollywood actress or perhaps a comparatively wholesome class of porn star.
Also, I find it a little off that the conversation barely ever seems to swing around to the unrealistic depiction of men in media like videogames and comic books. I’d say it’s possibly just as damaging to male self-esteem to be constantly bombarded by representations of chiselled, straining six-packs as the “norm” in our imaginary worlds.
17/11/2008 at 03:23 Dorian Cornelius Jasper says:
Quater: Well, if you insist, I’ll concede that much. The most exposure I’ve gotten to supermodels was from mass media–the difference between a regular model and a model that’s really broken into mainstream popular consciousness. And the supermodels (models who are also honest to goodness celebrities whose names could even be recognized by people who know nothing of modeling) that the media promotes tend to look smashing.
But by nitpicking terms you’re also missing my point.
There was an East vs. West dichotomy in the original discussion, and stepping beyond the insults and implications of mutual ignorance, there was an issue of stylization vs. realism. I stepped back from the stylization/realism angle to spin the cultural divide issue (which is what most of the unsavory comments from both Kotaku posts tended to originate from), and attacked it at its core because I honestly don’t think there really is a significant difference of cultures between modern East and modern West as to what constitutes beauty. The reason why I believe the depiction of Asians in Western culture is so “off” compared to depiction of Asians by Asians is an issue of stereotyping. The issue of beauty merely being the one that’s up for discussion.
And let’s not bring up the “unrealistic depiction of men” bit. Not only does it have nothing to do with the discussion, it overlooks the message behind the depictions of overly masculine men in media. That is, unrealistic men are depicted as paragons of physical traits, and often character traits, that men look up to in admiration. The assumption being that just by working out enough you too could look like that. And those men are not objectified or reduced to secondary throwaway “romantic elements” in media but are heroes whose deeds other men could admire (or, in video games, live out).
Having said that, the issue of the depiction of men as opposed to the depiction of women wasn’t even on the radar, far as I could tell. The conversation didn’t swing around that way because that wasn’t what the conversation was about.
17/11/2008 at 03:31 Muzman says:
We can split hairs over the definition of supermodel forever, but it makes the point. As does the comparison to Jessica Alba actually. Side by side nearly everyone picks the ‘cuter’ one, yet the original is closer to every other real adult female beauty anyone’s likely to see (People call the orginal mannish, which is obviously ludicrous, but it’s only by comparison. For all the knee jerk popularity real super cute Japanese girls, or for that matter super cute of any other regional look, aren’t to pinnacle of looks. Else that’d be all we saw on every magazine and billboard). And when we’re talking about beauty seen in person, the spectrum gets even wider.
Anyway Faith’s quite an achievement in naturalism for any invented character. The picture where she’s hanging on the building looking in the window was the best. They took the care to get the muscle tension in her arm and shoulder looking right, as opposed to the (photoshopped to) slight form bodies, low gravity environments of cheescake shots or the can’t support/can’t-be-arsed-rigging-the-model for that detail of 3d stuff. That says a lot right there about what they’re going for.
17/11/2008 at 03:38 Thiefsie says:
They’re just characters (or people). I find Faith maybe slightly more attractive than Alyx, but both are neither people I would traditionally find hot. And that’s where that ends for me. The only time that attractiveness might actually play a HEAVY role on a game for me is if the game was a dating game (or involved something as such).
They’re women, they’re fake. I don’t think about it too much. I don’t fantasize about Manga or Lara Croft or elves (maybe I’m the odd one in that regard) but real people yes. Hence I don’t care much for this debate apart from outside cultural interest.
I don’t care if male characters are typically portrayed butch either. Maybe deep down this has affected me, but no more so than CK models or footy players etc.
Even the ‘gayness’ of GoW doesn’t make me waste more than 5 minutes thinking about it. The game is fluff (as most are) and not worthy of fanciful exposition of genderal stereotypes and inequality.
Have fun, move on. Be happy Faith isn’t a Lara Croft pornstar of a character.
17/11/2008 at 03:39 Dorian Cornelius Jasper says:
Which is why I’ve said again and again that Faith is not the right character for the discussion to center itself around. She’s a hero. She’s realistic in a game whose original idea was to make something that has traditionally been very unrealistic in games into something very realistic–speaking, of course, of motion in the first person perspective.
I still point out to the models in Japan, China, and Korea (real-life models) as the real “Eastern” ideal of beauty, not to the stylized “anime” look that the original article highlighted. And each country’s media has its own criteria for what it looks for.
But yes, you’re absolutely right Muzman. It would probably be more conducive to the discussion if it hadn’t started with one guy Photoshopping that pic of Faith. She’s just not a character designed with the root issue at mind.
17/11/2008 at 04:41 Arathain says:
I think it’s interesting to refer to Gordon Freeman and Alyx Vance as plain. Gordon may be on the geeky side, but he has good facial lines and striking eyes. I consider him quite a handsome man. Alyx, in particular, is very pretty. She’s just not unrealistically proportioned. I think it says a lot about how distorted our standards have become.
17/11/2008 at 05:36 Psychopomp says:
I concur with Quater on the lyrics, and Dorian on the rest.
Faith is, as far as i’ve seen, the most realistic female hero in a (I LOST THE GAME)game so far.
Lyrics?
Sister, walk through these fields of delight, but I want you to know
Desperation’s the tenderest trap, so gently you go
What will it take?
Sister awake
Hint:It’s about a woman who willingly returns to an abusive ex time and time again.
Also, bonus points if you know the song.
Embrace my desire to…
Embrace my desire to
Feel the rythym, to
Feel connected,
Enough to step aside, and
Weep like the widow, to
Feel inspired, to
Fathom the power, to
Witness the beauty, to
Bathe in the clouds, to
Swing on the spiral, to
Swing on the spiral, to
Swing on the spiral of,
Our divinity, and
Still be a human
Again, bonus points if you know the song.
17/11/2008 at 06:02 eyemessiah says:
There was a time, before we were born. If someone asks this is where I’ll be. Yay talking heads.
17/11/2008 at 06:39 Klaus says:
Yeah, Gordan Freeman I wouldn’t consider average. Once you get past those huge glasses on his face anyway. Alyx isn’t what I’d consider average either.
Amusingly enough I find the default male Shepard from Mass Effect average, despite the fact he’s based on a model of some sort.
17/11/2008 at 06:45 Klaus says:
I’ve always liked this – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hibyAJOSW8U
17/11/2008 at 06:51 RaFannie says:
Guys Zoo Digital is bringing an updated and fixed version of NARC, check it out:
http://www.zoodigitalpublishing.com/product-item.php?id=349
17/11/2008 at 07:04 tmp says:
Could the difference simply stem from what sort of looks one is subjected to, on regular basis? Exotic flair can have considerable sex-appeal. Thus it doesn’t seem unusual at all that to Western person an attractive Asian character would be someone with pronounced Asian features, something they don’t witness frequently… while at the same time to Asian person these features could be perceived as average and boring… and so also in search of the exotic flair their attention would be drawn to characters with some Western influence, if anything.
This is of course aside from much more universal attraction to certain features, which are indeed not that different ( http://www.uni-regensburg.de/Fakultaeten/phil_Fak_II/Psychologie/Psy_II/beautycheck/english/index.htm )
17/11/2008 at 07:43 eyemessiah says:
The Mirrors Edge discussion seems a little Bizarro. Both versions of Faith seem incredibly glam to me. I don’t know a lot of women who present as flawlessy as Faith A or B.
I understand why this has touched a nerve though. I too prefer my heroines to be marginally less glam, ala Alyx & Zoey and would resent it if Valve were proposing a BOOBS patch for HL2 & L4D. But they aren’t, and neither are the makers of Mirror’s Edge. The article itself even said “The language will be localized in Japanese, but not the character design.” It doesn’t get much clearer than that!
This is more like some random internet guy making a BOOBS skin for Mirror’s Edge, but its not even that significant. Its just some random internet wierdo messing about in photoshop.
Re. realism
Alyx, Faith A and Zoey are just not that realistic IMHO. If some of you remain unconvinced go and stand in a train station in 30 mins and have look at the commuters. Generally speaking your average person is substantially less attractive than even the most politically correct entertainment-heroine.
For me, the thing I dislike about Fakefactory’s Alyx & Alyx(again) is not so much how much she doesn’t look like the frankly unattractive people on the High Street, but simply that on an aesthetic level I don’t particularly like the way she has been stylised. She looks like a porn star and that ruins the fiction for me, not because it represents a failure on the part of the character designers to represent the reality of lowest common denominator attractiveness, but just I find it hard to take porn stars seriously.
Until some game designer bases his heroine on his short, overweight ex girlfriend, or her hero on her pudding faced ginger ex boyfriend I’m going to find it hard to take a discussion of realism in character design seriously!
17/11/2008 at 08:20 Gap Gen says:
The Gabe interview is good, but it’s a shame he didn’t come out of his shell a little more. Sometimes the questions are longer than the answers.
17/11/2008 at 08:24 eyemessiah says:
Re. Character Creation
I spent a long time in ME chargen. I think I did it about 3 times before settling, going through the entire unskippable intro each time before deciding to restart. In the end I began to suspect that I actually had recreated an ex girlfriend of mine, only with a more athletic body and fuller lips (I was never really happy with the lips tbh, but couldn’t face starting the game again!). I then proceeded to roleplay her like Kusanagi Motoko.
I don’t know what any of this says about me.
17/11/2008 at 08:58 Gap Gen says:
Also, isn’t Mirror’s Edge all about escaping a tyranny characterised by aesthetic perfection?
17/11/2008 at 09:20 Heliocentric says:
On the character creation note. Some games the stats (creating a weak character fears) cause me to obsess on the character creation. Notably baldur’s gate in which i rolled until i got 18 in most stats (for hours)them proceeded to walk through the whole game without a single challenge, a regret. But in games with visual character design i have a hard time resisting “maximum face”. That being a character with the sliders all as far as they can go to one side.
17/11/2008 at 09:51 Malagate says:
Ahh the ol’ Face: TO THE MAX! method eh Helio? When it comes to character creation I’ll usually keep it short and sweet, I’ll either make something that looks like what I want to look like (like me but better), make something that looks really hideous or I’ll just make something that really makes me laugh.
For instance in Mount & Blade I use a wrinkly old guy with big bushy beard, in Fallout 3 I use a pale guy with the Dead Man’s Hand facial hair (both funny and something I couldn’t grow myself) and in Mass Effect I made a black guy with platinum blonde buzz cut and matching handle-bar mustache (it was just ridiculous, so much so that I loved it).
17/11/2008 at 09:55 Kieron Gillen says:
I admit, the thing which throws me in the Faith debate is the subtext on the pro-remix side that Western Developers don’t understand the Eastern standards of beauty, when part of the remix is just giving her bigger tits. I think we all grasp the concept of bigger tits well enough, and someone not doing bigger tits on a character may be about something other than Just Not Getting It.
(Yeah, others have said similar things, but this is just the core piece of anti-evidence.)
KG
17/11/2008 at 10:27 cullnean says:
fight club was on last night.
“you are not your fuckin khakis”
sums it up quite well
17/11/2008 at 11:05 Quater says:
@ Dorian Cornelius Jasper: I’m not sure why you’re so adamant that you know what the conversation is supposed to be about, and nobody else seems to. The topic of a conversation changes subtley as it progresses. Maybe it started off being about one specific thing, now it’s about something else. From most of the recent posts, the conversation has, indeed, become about the idealisation thing, not the cultural difference thing, and as such Faith, who is a woman in a videogame, is perfect subject matter for the topic at hand, which is now about unrealistic depictions of people in the popular culture, among other things.
“Generally speaking your average person is substantially less attractive than even the most politically correct entertainment-heroine.”
Ooh, now there’s an interesting thing to say. By my estimation, the “average person” (and by the way, who is this “average person”, exactly? Is there such a thing? Really?) is substantially more attractive, by virtue of, apart from simply being flesh and blood, having more (ironically) character than the kind of blandly, slightly offensively (even to my randy male sensibilities) sexualised construct that we as gamers usually have thrust upon us. And yes, even Alyx falls into that category, I’m afraid. She’s still just too airbrushed and cover-model for my liking, and there’s a bit of “ooh she looks a bit exotic and foreign, but in a politically correct sort of way” kind of sexual wish-fulfillment going on with her character design. Perhaps it’s just impossible to create a fictional character with any acceptable sense of realism?
17/11/2008 at 11:11 phil says:
Good character creation should impact the game’s story and overall experience, rather than just the player’s haircut.
Mass Effect’s character origin selection was nice touch, I felt slightly more justified in my ‘shoot first, loot corpse, mock the dead’ approach knowing my character grew up ugly and tough in a urban hellscape. That way, when I went paragon later on, it felt like a proper character arch.
An intelligence 1 playthough of Fallout 2 has got to be the gold standard though for character creation influenced gameplay, you can hardly talk to NPCs or use anything more complex than a stick.
17/11/2008 at 11:13 Dinger says:
The assumption is that the heroine is supposed to be beautiful to the point of superhuman perfection. And while I’d like to throw that out as absurd, maybe there is something to the assumption. We’re talking about a character with superhuman physical performance (leap building in a single bound, take a can of 7.62mm to the legs and still run a marathon), why should the depiction be any more realistic?
On the other hand, the “assumption” falls down when you look in the mirror and see an unathletic 14-year-old with obvious eyelid and breast surgery, and say, “No way she could do that.” So perhaps she needs giant bulging calves instead?
Cliffski referred to “a journalist I know”. Not one to drop names, eh?
The GN interview’s major weird point seemed to be where the interviewer was trying to get Gabe to explain how he got into games as a viable approach for someone just starting out. (Make millions and millions of bucks, then start a company).
I didn’t particularly appreciate his conclusion, that it’s either Renaissance French Poetry or DigiPen. Consider, for example, the recent IP discussion in Gamasutra and picked up by Slashdot. One of the better arguments for the DigiPen “keep your best ideas at home” policy was made by a slashdotter claiming to be a DigiPen student: they’re college students, and they have academic requirements beyond making games. One of the big risks for a bunch of motivated students like that is that they’ll spend too much time on game design projects, and ignore their general requirements. You know, like Renaissance French Poetry.
So even there, it’s not all making games; sometimes you gotta take classes with Christ the Redeemer.
17/11/2008 at 11:58 Ginger Yellow says:
I don’t have the character creation indecision problem, as I’m completely unable to make a character look like anything/one in particular. I can’t begin to mentally translate multiple parameters for chin size or eye separation etc into a single “real” face. So I just end up plumping for one of the defaults or dragging the sliders to extremes to make the freakiest character I can.
17/11/2008 at 12:06 Jochen Scheisse says:
Yes, why is Faith not a pregnant dick girl with knockers the size of watermelons? That is racism!
17/11/2008 at 12:41 eyemessiah says:
@Quater: “Is there such a thing? Really?”
Yes. There are many of them. I can see them from my window right now.
“…is substantially more attractive…”
This depends on the context. If I were having to pick between having sex with a commuter and sex with Alyx I would probably go for the commuter given that physically speaking I can actually have sex with a commuter, and choosing Alyx is unlikely to result in intercourse. However, if I were asked to rate commuters and Alyx, Lara Croft and Yoko on their attractiveness I think I’d probably (given the attractiveness of most commuters) rate the fictional characters higher than the real people.
I don’t think this is as unusual as it sounds!
On the website about studying beauty somewhere above they did tests where they asked people to compare super “attractive” computer manipulated images and also images of more normal looking people, and people selected in favour of the computer “enhanced” faces. I don’t think the “fakeness” of illustration, animation or CGI is necessarily a turn off. Attractiveness imho is an abstraction all if its own.
“…sexualised construct that we as gamers usually have thrust upon us…”
And in the game?
17/11/2008 at 13:08 eyemessiah says:
@KG: “I think we all grasp the [concept of] bigger tits well enough, and someone not doing bigger tits on a character may be about something other than Just Not Getting It.”
But her buffed bust isn’t the only thing the HIM changed. Her face is substantially reworked as well. Would it appeal more to the Asian audience? I don’t know. Maybe someone should POLL ASIA.
Either way, it seems uncontroversially obvious that aesthetic preferences in Asia might be different to those in The West. But even if they are it doesn’t matter. The devs wont have “failed” if they have made an Asian woman that is more attractive to the western audience than to the Japanese & Chinese – unless they had some pretty odd milestones on their design docs.
IMO the whole regional preference discussion is nonsense given that its all based on one random internet guy, who is probably a Naruto fan from Dundee, claiming to speak on behalf of all of Asia.
I think
17/11/2008 at 13:10 Quater says:
So show me what this “average person” looks like. I want to see a picture of her/him, because I certainly haven’t met them.
My point, which I’m being purposefully obtuse about making in the hope that someone will pick up on it anyway, is that there is no such thing as the average person and that our perceptions of what’s realistic and what isn’t have become so skewed that it doesn’t seem to have occurred to a lot of people in this discussion that, in fact, there are women in the world who look exactly like Alyx Vance, Faith and Lara Croft. In what way, then, are they unrealistic? You may not see so many of them on the train to work, but you’re probably not a fashion photographer.
My problem, from an aesthetic point of view, is this: why are we constantly reinforcing, among ourselves and each other, this accustomisation to the ideal of everything, to the point where, rather than thinking of Alyx or Lara as especially attractive, you think of the real women you see around you as unattractive? Similarly, if Superman had a pot belly, would that make it harder to take him seriously? Why?
17/11/2008 at 13:13 Gap Gen says:
Yeah, while I think the reworking is more attractive than the original, I don’t think that’s the point. Faith is supposed to be a hard-as-nails outcast, not a Japanese booth babe. Unless the point of the reworking was “by cynically manipulating your images like this, you can make more money from horny Asian teens.”
17/11/2008 at 13:14 Kieron Gillen says:
eyemessiah: Yeah, but they *did*, and then presented the image as “Why Western Devs don’t get it”. It undermines them totally, and kind of shows why some people are on the internet doing fan art and some people are art directors on major videogames. It’s just a really good short-cut to dismissing him, y’know?
KG
17/11/2008 at 13:15 Gap Gen says:
“Similarly, if Superman had a pot belly, would that make it harder to take him seriously? Why?”
Interesting – since Superman has super powers, does he need a good physique? I mean, I understand why a fat fifty-something in Far Cry wouldn’t last five seconds, but if you actually have magic powers then maybe you don’t need a six-pack and massive biceps.
17/11/2008 at 13:23 cullnean says:
@gap gen
inner geek ahoy, its due to the way his metabolism reacts to sunlight (of the yellow variety) also as an alien changes in gravity etc could bring on physical changes and you know stuff…
17/11/2008 at 13:40 James T says:
Go on Kieron, tell us your Once in a Lifetime thing. They’re my favourite band, but I find ‘Lifetime’ a little tiring… I’m more of a ‘Buildings and Food’/'Fear of Music’ man.
I’m looking forward to creating my doppelganger in APB, that looks like some classy avatar-moulding (Mass Effect and Fallout 3 weren’t terribly inspiring. …And neither were their avatar-making widgets, har har). A chuckle when Leigh says she ‘kinda hates’ the element of choice in games — I know the feeling of having played through a ‘factional’ game with my preferred choices, and then having to bite my tongue and go against all my usual inclinations on later playthroughs to try out the other path (I still haven’t played for the Order in Witcher EE, and I scarcely ever join Duty in the STALKER games. And I’m always a pacifistic JC Denton). The extra possibilities being open to you, however, remains awesome (potentially, anyway — The factions in the Witcher were a nice ethical headscratcher (a heartscratcher? Ouch), and although the feud in STALKER is ridiculously petty, it’s not just pat good-vs-evil; Fallout’s “I’m a sweet guy”-vs-”I’m a JERK” branching doesn’t do nearly as much for me). Plus it makes for good conversation after the game! (“dude u got order in my scoiatel” “u got scoitael in my order” “tahts gay i like order why did u go with gayatel?” “ur mom said i shuld”)
17/11/2008 at 14:17 eyemessiah says:
@Qatar:”In what way, then, are they unrealistic?”
Just in the sense that they don’t resemble most of the people we meet in our everyday lives. I do agree with your obtuse point though, and imo it serves to demonstrate that realism or lack of it isn’t really the problem. I’d say Faith A is uncommonly attractive as well.
The problem some people have with Faith B, I think, is simply that they like Faith A (and all that she implies) better – I don’t think it “really” has to do with a failure of realism.
17/11/2008 at 14:33 eyemessiah says:
@KG
I’m not 100% sure that he’s wrong though, as I say the boobs aren’t everything (I don’t actually say that that often). If I wasn’t going out I’d spend the afternoon looking at pictures of Japanese Gravure idols to try and determine if Faith B is more in-style than Faith A.
But even if he is right, is that honestly troubling? Does anyone care if Asia has different taste in women than the West and that devs in the West might not be able to synthesise their product to perfectly fit the Asian palate?
I suppose he thought it was significant enough to make a point out of it though. I don’t.
That said I can see why it touches a nerve though, as I say I much prefer non-glamour model based character design and more than that I think it represents something that is politically-progressive, and I’d agree that Faith B as a videogame heroine is relatively politically-regressive.
But that has nothing to do with whether or not Western devs “don’t get” the Asian beauty conventions.
17/11/2008 at 14:34 eyemessiah says:
I was kidding about looking at Japanese gravure models by the way. I’d never do that.
17/11/2008 at 14:38 Kieron Gillen says:
The boobs are *something* though. I’m looking beneath his actual statement to see the real meaning. His argument was “Western designers don’t know how to make something hot in the east” while his real meaning was “I want my game characters to be hot”. His response to Faith-as-is was “She needs bigger tits”. This is the core issue beneath the race questions – It’s still the Male Gaze, whether it’s from the East or West.
KG
17/11/2008 at 16:26 Muzman says:
Oh the guy saying the new Faith (his new Faith, as I understand it) is more true to ‘Asian standards of beauty’ is demonstrably full of shit. Anyone could post any number of Asian women, well known and popular for their looks who, according to him, shouldn’t be and he’d have to alter.
He may have his finger on the pulse of fashion in anime cute aesthetics but that’s all. The implication that she’s some sort of anglicised image of an Asian woman is derranged. The whole continent ought to punch him for that one. You can even see in the various angles she’s got a rather flat, broad face; typically the first characteristic to go when westerners design ‘Asian-ish’ people for games/ comics/ whatever.
Character design is hard, particularly naturalistic character design. Real looks are all in the subtleties. There’s a lot of generica that acts as a shortcut to achieving a certain end that’s very easy to fall back on simply because it works in that first glance. Everyone with the vaguest experience knows if you want to make someone prettier you toy with the proportions; women- make the eyes bigger, neck narrower and more curved, bring in the corners of the mouth, wider cheekbones, heart shaped face etc. Most of these work for men too (although maintain masculinity by keeping the neck wide, the jaw strong etc unless you want FF bishounen).
For all the supposed vast insight the guy just proved he’s a hack.
17/11/2008 at 16:33 Rei Onryou says:
Has anyone else thought about the physical problems with Faith B (I assume the B stands for Breasts)? I doubt she’d be able to carry out her job without a couple of black eyes unless her sports bra has some sort of nipple-shaped anti-gravity device keeping them in place.
17/11/2008 at 17:13 Andy F says:
I think the basic problem with the Faith thing is the assumption by whoever made the modded version that she was supposed to be “hot”, and that because she isn’t seen as such in Asia, the developers had somehow “failed”. I find that assumption kind of sad, and immature.
FWIW, regarding the two renderings, I think the fan-modded one is prettier, but the original is more attractive.
17/11/2008 at 17:26 Gap Gen says:
“I find that assumption kind of sad, and immature.”
Alternatively, it could be an interesting insight into the Asian games market. Or it could be the incorrect opinion or a random forumite, which is possibly more likely.
I’m not sure I could see the fan-made Faith landing a punch like that, for one.
17/11/2008 at 17:41 Andy F says:
Indeed, it could be an interesting insight, and I’m perfectly willing to have my mind changed – what I posted above was just my initial reaction.
If it is an insight into the Asian games market, what does that mean? Is it possible/right to consider the whole Asian games market as a homogeneous entity? Do Japanese gamers want the same thing as Koreans? Then again, do English gamers want the same thing as Americans, or Germans, or Norwegians?
17/11/2008 at 18:22 Mister Hands says:
Can I just say I love this place?
17/11/2008 at 19:08 Gorgeras says:
The original looks like Faith. The ‘asian’ re-doing looks like the boy out of The Grudge, with tits.
Maybe that is what makes it ‘asian’: girls have tits, boys don’t and that is the only difference the asian market can see without seeing genitals. If so, then Asia is apparently unaware of the ‘moob’ phenomenom.
Vote moobs for Duke Nukem when he next actually gets a release. He must be in his 50s by now, so he should have them.
17/11/2008 at 20:28 eyemessiah says:
@KG
Agreed, the regional preference issue isn’t significant.
You didn’t think that the changes to the face we more striking than the generic bust?
Lets consider Faith C and Faith D.
In Faith C I don’t think the generic bust changes Faith that much.
Faiths B & D on the other-hand seem like very different sorts of characters to Faith A.
If any of you think Faith D is the hottest then you must go to jail.
17/11/2008 at 20:55 Tom Camfield says:
Yeah but Kieron, I’m not likely to bump into you in a pub, so, Talking Heads: isn’t “My God! What have I done?” that feeling that you’ve taken the wrong road in life? Or do you think he’s drowned his wife in the deep blue or something?
17/11/2008 at 21:13 Psychopomp says:
@Eyemessiah
…shit.
17/11/2008 at 21:34 aldo says:
Well, I asked my wife (who knows about this sort of thing :) ) and asian (or specifically oriental) people definitely have different definitions of beauty and attractiveness to western (or perhaps caucasian). The first (original) picture of Faith is not particularly attractive (i.e. about above average) to oriental people, largely due to facial structure – particularly the eyes.
17/11/2008 at 21:38 Saflo says:
The Orientals, you see, share a sophisticated hivemind.
17/11/2008 at 21:42 mrs aldo says:
Yup.
;)
17/11/2008 at 21:51 Klaus says:
I agree aldo, and though I shouldn’t judge many based on a few, I came to such a conclusion after spending years as anime loving Japanophile and seeing the Magna Carta game for PS2 really brought it to light.
Reith and Eonis from Magna Carta – http://ui16.gamespot.com/1455/oxidemc2_2.jpg
No one in that game looks like the original Faith, in fact, in an anime based in a fictional setting – Faith A, would have likely came from some mock Asian ‘We must have faith in Honorable Grandparents’ country.
17/11/2008 at 21:57 Malagate says:
@Mrs Aldo, I’m a gonna talk to my gf and confirm this then, but if it’s true then you’ll already know what she’s thinking…
I’m honestly not that surprised at the idea that an Asian dude has photoshopped Faith for his own sensibilities, I mean have you seen what most women look like in Asian games? Have none of you seen a Korean MMO? MMOs which are invariably the many lands of giant muscly blokes and tiny women with huge…lower-back problems in later life, and a nation wide shortage of adequate clothing.
Which incidentally sheds light on Andy F’s point about whether Koreans want the same thing as Japanese in their games, compare say the Dead or Alive women to any woman in Granado Espada. Hmmmm, draw any parallels there?
17/11/2008 at 22:06 Klaus says:
lol, to clarify. Magna Carta is Korean made.
17/11/2008 at 22:41 Dorian Cornelius Jasper says:
EyeMessiah: *claps* Good point on the whole “standards of realism being skewed.” I’d completely overlooked how “realistic” female characters actually match up with women one’s likely to meet in real life. But I think a pass could be given in comparison to other popular media, such as movies and TV. Compared to stylized presentations, Alyx and Faith definitely fall on the more “real” side of the gradient.
Quater: Sorry if I offended, but I was only reacting out of offense to you. You don’t italicise “you” in text without meaning to offend someone, it’s like pointing a finger in public. But, honestly, the question of whether or not men should feel offended by the unrealistic depictions of men in media is both an old “derailing” method of discussion whenever the issue of female depiction comes up (so much so that it’s entered the Anti-Comics-Feminist Bingo, albeit in a much more specialized form) and a bit moot. Because, honestly, there are far fewer offended men out there than offended women. And when you look at the messages portrayed by these unrealistic depictions it’s not hard to see why. But that’s a whole ‘nother issue entirely.
KG: On the bit on anti-evidence, you’re absolutely right. I still hold to the idea that the “East” is just more willing to pander. This is not a phenomenon unique to the male demographic either (see: Any popular Japanese or Korean media involving unreasonably attractive guys, real or stylized–there’s a stereotype about Dramas floating around there somewhere). That’s not a comment on the gender politics side of the discussion as much as it is on the geopolitics one because there’s a real divide between popular Western and Eastern media with regards to “skin deep beauty marketability.” The editing artist has probably gotten too used to the standards of media from over there and, in a manner that’s easy to do, tied up his personal reaction to Faith’s design with her apparent stereotypical appearance (Asian with a flat haircut being a factor, probably) with the presumption that she was the West’s idea of what makes an attractive Asian. There’s the Male Gaze there behind his intentions, and behind his reference material he’s using in contrast, and he didn’t notice it.
At least take comfort in the fact that Western popular media’s a bit less cynical in that regard. A bit, anyway.
I’m still a bit bugged that it was, of all characters, Faith was the one to be at the center of it. C’mon, Torokun, you’re letting the otaku side down.
As an aside, to Malagate and Klaus: Hah! Yes. Japan and Korea’s popular culture is a lot more similar than some folks would like to give them credit for. China’s a bit different, but mostly on material made for the male demographic–their comics look positively Western-non-continental-European at first glance. For the female demographic, things skew cuter and closer to what we’d imagine from Japan, though.
17/11/2008 at 22:56 Fat Zombie says:
I happened to be listening to the album Stop Making Sense when I read this. Fantastic.
17/11/2008 at 23:26 Janto says:
Now I understand why what appeared to be gorgeous Chinese girls would always be with the most bet-down Chinese guys – the girls were the ugly ones! I could have been so in there.
As far as the models debate goes, I’ve been unfortunate enough to see a fair bit of America’s Next Top Model, and trust me, the girls who got to the top tended to not be the hottest. Apparently it’s much worse with male models, certainly very few male models look like guys you’d see walking down the street, and most look like the vanguard of an alien invasion. But I’d argue that the remixed Faith is just a pretty girl with big tits, and if you got roughly 20 female first year college students together, there’d probably be at least one girl with similar enough looks.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that cultural relativism is all well and good, but sometimes your culture, or sub-culture, or fundamentalist looney wingnut culture, is wrong and stupid, and shouldn’t be tolerated or pandered to. Just to be clear, I’m talking about things like insisting on adult women being portrayed as childlike sex objects, rather than everyone having their own standards of hotness.
On an interesting side-note… any black guys out there with comments on beauty culture in games? Because I suspect many white guys would tend to rate black women according to how caucasian their features are.
17/11/2008 at 23:49 Quater says:
@ Dorian Cornelius Jasper: Actually if you look back up, I didn’t italicise “you” (which, by the way, I had no idea anybody could possibly be so over-sensitive as to interpret as a serious personal insult) until you had already accused me of “nitpicking… missing my point… insults and implications of mutual ignorance”. Prior to that little tirade, all I’d said was essentially that, big tits or not, Faith still looks like a supermodel whichever way you cut it. I took the opportunity to expand the boundaries of the discussion a bit into other areas of idealisation in the depiction of people in general in popular culture. How you managed to infer any kind of personal attack out of that whatsoever, or how you can seriously justify peppering me with passive-aggressive belittlements and accusing me of “derailing” a conversation about idealisation by merely contributing my opinion about the topic at hand, is utterly beyond me.
I haven’t bothered to comment about the “East / West divide” aspect of the debate purely because A. I had my fill of that dualistic hogwash at SOAS and it’s just not interesting any more (and while we’re at it, there is no such thing as “The East” or “The West”) and B. it was based on the picture submitted by that guy insisting that he knew what all Asian men liked and that Faith’s character design was therefore a failure. That guy is clearly an outright moron, and his point is therefore not actually worth serious discussion.
Now, I myself am a sometime artist and I have been particularly interested of late in the whole area of idealisation and its role in the way people see, interpret and represent/reproduce the human form. Of course sexual politics is pertinent to the debate, and of course I, being a man, am entitled to be concerned about male representation every bit as much as the other way around.
If you are going to insist on being some kind of arbiter of relevance and argumentative integrity in this comments thread, you might want to start paying attention to who said what, when, and with what intentions before dismissing someone as a petty neanderthal “Anti-Feminist”, which is, as near as I can fathom and to my complete incredulity, what you appear to be trying to paint me as.
17/11/2008 at 23:53 Dorian Cornelius Jasper says:
Oh. Right, then.
18/11/2008 at 02:20 perilisk says:
While Faith #2 appeals more as a potential boning target, Faith #1 appeals more as a competent, powerful protagonist. Faith #1 tends to call up qualities males are more likely to associate with other males, people that you may need to rely on while hunting mammoths or in war (strength, athleticism, bravery, etc.) As an airheaded sidekick who dies a lot in escort missions and spends most of her time stroking the protagonist’s ego, Faith #2 would shine.
At any rate, the whole “Eastern standards of beauty” thing is missing the point. It’s not that Faith #1 was considered more beautiful, it’s that the people who designed her realized that you’re twice as effective as an artist if both of your hands are free when you’re working. Or maybe they’re trying to evoke the qualities above, generally reserved by males for males. I’m pretty sure that #2 is more attractive in -every- market, despite the disturbingly exaggerated paedomorphic facial features (but to be fair, neotenic facial features in women are generally considered more attractive by men everywhere — just ask Wikipedia).
18/11/2008 at 07:55 aldo_14 says:
If you mean Faith#2 by ‘childlike’, I think you’re viewing that from a western or perhaps caucasian perspective. I should probably point out (because she won’t read this and give me into trouble for revealing personal info… hopefully) Mrs Aldo was born and brought up (mostly) in a south-east asian country, and lived with a few people from Korea etc at uni in the states, so I’d wager she’s had a pretty good experience of what’s considered attractive. And her first reaction was something along the lines of ‘she’d be considered very attractive’ rather than ‘she looks like a kid’.
I think it’s a question of cultural/physical norms. Features like bigger eyes et al are apparently rated pretty highly, to the extent of Japanese girls having eye surgery, simply because the general physical architecture of the asian body is slightly different (which includes tits, frankly). Pretty sure most ‘ideal’ women for any race are like that – notably different from the norm.
That said, Mrs. Aldo also commented that Faith#1 (i.e. the proper DICE one) was a far more realistic looking woman – just not one who’d stand out in a crowd. Which to me is pretty much what DICE wanted (and, of course, the whole argument could be negated if the original artist was asian).
18/11/2008 at 12:44 mister slim says:
The argument the image’s creator is trying to make fails because his version is stylized rather than idealized. He might have been on point if Dice were aiming for a stylized version of beauty, as I think Eastern and Western tastes do diverge there, but Dice was clearly aiming to create a realistic but perfect woman rather than a abstract but pandering lead.
There is definitely some interesting territory to explore in how different cultures abstract characters to appear beautiful. As random examples, the stylization of Akira Toriyama’s women differs from Rob Liefeld’s significantly, due to the way manga and Western comics are produced and how those differences have been magnified over the lifetime of the medium.
18/11/2008 at 13:55 tmp says:
Would disagree with that, considering facial characteristics of a child are something that’s pretty universal around the globe and simply part of growing up process. There’s a rather interesting study of it, that lists these factors.
Now, there might be cultural differences which leads to stronger and/or more open endorsement of these factors in some locations, but that doesn’t really make these attributes themselves any less ‘childlike’. To use slightly absurd example, if the standard of beauty included the person being as short as possible, it wouldn’t make being short any less of characteristic that’s normally (and universally) observed in kids, no matter the child’s race. It works the same for less obvious features like large eyes, small chin etc.
18/11/2008 at 17:30 sinister agent says:
So anyway, I’ve only reada bout three comments on this page, because I’m a child of modern times and there’s a good chance I’ll see something shiny across the room and abandon this comments before posting, but I just want to sa I wholeheartedly agree with this:
As a guy, I’m always a little disgusted when designers stick in big-breasted, scantily clad, flirty women for players to ogle at. Of course it’s demeaning to women, but it’s demeaning to men too, to think that all we care about is shooting shit and starting at 3D models with big tits.
Seriously. Thank you.
Also, thanks pretty much everyone else for being so interesting and mature in these here comments.