So I’ve had a bit more time on the Dawn Of War 2 multiplayer beta, and some thoughts come to mind. I’ve written them up after the jump, and I’m fairly certain you’ll tell me whether or not you agree.
Different, and yet agreeably samey. Less of a battle and more of a brawl. That’s how I’m feeling about Dawn of War 2. I love the spread of options that the four races (and three hero-types per race) provide, and I’m also glad of the absurd Warhammer 40k bombast that was so perfectly pitched in the original. Fights are ostentatious, macho, and bloody. Not-quite-cartoon brutality that makes this entertaining even when you lose. Just the way we like it. The entire game is a little closer in, and much better defined. Everything, from the main menu inwards, is swathed in useful detail. It has a sense of purpose. I love the jungle map, and the Tyranids hiss and shriek just so.
Early on, I wasn’t so sure. The focus on your units, particularly your hero, rather than your structures, is a distinct and far-reaching change. And it’s blatantly clear that the game can be won or lost in the opening couple of minutes, which I’ve heard a few grumbles about. That’s true, but this does not mean that it will be lost in that period, which is quite a different conclusion. In actual fact, if teams manage to deploy fairly evenly in those opening moments, and keep their core assets reasonably well defended, then a proper scrap can emerge.
That’s not to say it’s quite what I wanted. I do miss being able to build a large complex of buildings, and especially turrets. As that kind of player I was, of course, drawn to play the defensive hero classes. The techmarine was particularly satisfying, and I managed to do fairly well in early games by spamming Tarantula turrets across my most sensitive areas. Immediately these kinds of units begin to reveal what is interesting about DoW2, with the techmarine levelling up, and the turrets suppressing enemy units. The heavy weapons really do feel heavy in this game, not just because of the suppression effect, which slows enemy assaults, but also because of the visual splatter of them. The effects rip across the map in a most satisfying manner. They are big guns wot shoot like big guns should
And assuming things don’t fold in the first few minutes, the game really does begin to open up in an interesting way, thanks to that levelling dynamic. The fights become fiercer, more likely to be turned by the sudden burst of a special power. (Possibly at the risk of there being too much micromanagement? I can’t tell yet.) This time the upward spiral of firepower is not simply thanks to base upgrades giving you more tiers of units, but in the clear focus on sexy equipment. Pretty much everyone can be upgraded, with the hero getting three slots for special abilities and additional powers. Once these are in-play then the micro-level of the actual fights become a good deal more compelling. Once again Relic have aced the fighting animations, and watching an Ork warboss beat the hell out of a Tyranid hive tyrant makes for happy nerding.
All this stuff benefits from the lessons learned via Company of Heroes too, with the use of both cover and structures. This I really do approve of. Dawn of War battlefields are no longer fancy, but essentially featureless, playing fields. Instead – as in CoH – the entire thing is enriched by their being made up of a network of possible chokepoints and entrenchment lines. This makes the battles feel far more malleable: you sense there’s more to master, and more options to play with. More to worry about, too. The cover system doesn’t always seem to work for squads, with one dude almost always standing out in the open, but it’s an addition that seems to genuinely rejig the way you have to think, if you want to win.
Of course, having been a complete junkie for hugely unit-rich base-building mega-battles in the original game, I do feel a little disappointed by the pared down, smaller feel of the multiplayer ways, and it makes me fear for the single player too. But that feeling is nevertheless offset by the general new-and-improved shininess of the game. This is one of the instances where a small step up in technology and design talent makes a rather major difference. They’re a couple of games wiser and smarter, and my newer, beefier PC is happy to shoulder the extra graphical load. The tigher focus seems to have brought some details to the fore, and make the large units all the more essential, and impressive.
Once again the Relic team seems to have captured what’s interesting about Games Workshop’s grim 41st century of Only War, and yet still made it colourful and approachable. So approachable, in fact, there’s something quite Blizzardian about it. It’s got that kind of sheen, which seems appropriate, given the history. And that user-friendliness will make the contrast with ultra-traditional Starcraft 2 all the more interesting. It does feel like Relic are making the bolder moves in the RTS world, but whether that will count for much in the race for sales and general acclaim, it’s hard to say. Maybe. I hope so.
We’ll be talking a load more about Dawn Of War 2, which is set for release on 19th/20th February, in a couple of weeks.
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Simply register your SS key as a Steam game. It works even with the non-Steam version.
“Quoted because it’s a key thing. It’s a game that’s removed base-building economic stuff because it totally demands your attention on a squad based level.”
That sounds much much better to me. I’ve been trying to get info without giving everything away, so this was extremely helpful. Thank you!
Something I find interesting is the whole “Champion” dealie. Even though I have a number of losses, I can claim that those losses were due to incompetent teammates because I have been the Champion in almost every winning game I’ve been in (bar the first game where I was still getting used to things). I find it odd, though, that they say you’ll be the champion if you get the highest score regardless of whether or not you win or lose – as far as I can tell, it’s impossible to be the champion if you lose because the winning team gets a 250-point bonus for winning. Bit of an oddity, there.
Anyway, I like the detail in the stats. Neat stuff.
Overall, DOW2 strikes me as an attempt, with the help of COH game mechanics, to produce an experience which is slightly closer to tabletop W40K than DOW1 was.
Another thing: Is it just me, or is the sound in the demo just a bit muted-seeming? When I’m watching a fight, it sounds like the fight is happening on the other side of a hill from me, rather than right in front of me. Perhaps a levels/compression issue?
Just needing info, when I crashed a few minutes ago a bug report program called ‘bug splat’ came up and wanted me to fill in details and my e-mail. I had never seen it before and didn’t trust it so closed it in task manager.
Is it normal or is this just me who has had this appear after a crash?
DoW2 strikes me as a game with a lot of potential that will likely be unrealised. The new engine is clearly a great improvment from DoW1, with battles potentially being twice as epic as before. I say potentially, because everything the epic feel of 40k has gained from the improved graphical effects, it has lost in the scaling down both of squad sizes and unit sizes (eg. no more vehicle arty, infantry instead).
Furthermore, the game seems to have swung too far towards mobile warfare. As it stands, the game rewards you for not fighting. I’ve won more than a few games by avoiding any major confrontation at all and capping points instead, this is worrying to say the least.
Another problem is that requisition is so damned slow to gather. The power rate feels about right, I can’t spam high tech units, but I’m not left waiting to be able to build any. If I lose my army, there isn’t much chance of having the req to rebuild it any time soon. Again, this rewards the player that avoids any confrontation they aren’t certain to win.
It wouldn’t take much to make DoW2 a game I’d be crazy about. Doubling the number of members in main combat squads would be a start (and a proportionate increase to vehicle power). Listening posts would be another, I don’t need the super-fortified LP2s from DoW1, but something to stop a single weak squad capping all my points would be nice. A corresponding requisition boost from LP building would also deal with one of my gripes with the game as it is now.
Much as I doubt either of those will be implemented, I can’t see any reason not to. The weak LPs in CoH did little to stop the fighting moving around, but at the same time kept mobility within reason. And with squad sizes, my rig is quite high spec, but aging (top end machine 2 years ago) and runs everything on high settings with no fps loss ever. If the game is optimised well enough to do that, it can do more.
Heh, I’ve now learned about the big advantage of mobility and now my fave commaner is the Kommando Nob.
A common tactic of players is to send just a single squad to take a point without support whilst battles are being fought elsewhere, so the Kommando always gets ambush oppotunities.
I’ll have the word “Blizzardian” playing through my mind for days now!
I feel it’s too late to make the game “bigger” though it sounds like a patch-ish feature. I think too many people would jump on to that boat instead of learning the intricacies of the way it is, though…
Fenix, do you think modders could do something like that? I haven’t actually played at all, but would a low damage but good suppression LP do what you’re asking for?
Gorgeras: Yes, it’s their bug reporting utility. It sends Relic info about the crash so they can fix it :|
And DarkFenix, I disagree, I don’t think it has to be “bigger” or more epic. The SM Tactical squad is a bit on the small side, I think, but other than that, I think they’ve struck a good balance, and it’s not a vastly different scale from the tabletop game.
As for the focus on mobility, I like it. I like that you have a chance of winning even if you’re outgunned. And at the same time, you can bunch your troops together and force the enemy into a fight too, if you want to. A large army guarding two VP’s can’t easily be avoided, so it’s still fairly easy to force the enemy to fight, at least in the games I’ve played.
I was really excited about DoW but it’s quickly fading the more I hear about the game. From my point of view it sounds like it has the hero implementation and slippery slope of WC3 as well as the random luck of CoH combined to make one monster of a RTS horror.
Slippery slopes (in this case leveling up units) is terrible for competitive RTS play. Already in an RTS, even one with as many units as Starcraft or Age of Empires, losing a small number of units is a very significant loss to the top end player. It’s very easy for another top end player to exploit even a 1 to 3 unit disadvantage. By adding in experience gain on top of that you are reinforcing the ‘top’ guy artificially. For mid/low end players this gives them the chance to better push one medium/good victory into further momentum but for a high skilled player this does nothing but neuter the chance for exciting gameplay by limiting the chance for comebacks even further than it already is.
On top of that it seems like DoW has the random luck in CoH. I won’t know until I play it but from the sound of people talking about certain units not ending up in cover, units garrisoning in buildings, and other gameplay elements it seems like there’s a little too many spots where the dice is rolled. Random chance = poor for competitive play.
So I’m excited to play this game next week but I’m also really ready to be disappointed. I was hoping that with ES out of the picture DoW could really step up to provide a competitive RTS game but it looks like instead it may just be a distraction until SC2 comes out. Hopefully I’m wrong though.
I’m not sure what gives you that impression. it’s not how I see the game, certainly. There definitely isn’t the same slippery slope as WC3, partly because of the focus on take&hold gameplay, which means you don’t always need the biggest guns, and partly because the retreat mechanic allows the loser to preserve his squads as well, while granting him cheap reinforcements.
If even one squad member makes it back to HQ alive (and they often do, because they move faster and take very little damage when retreating), the squad retains its XP.
I’m not sure how you think cover and garrisoning has to do with luck though. It isn’t random as far as I’m aware. Or did I misunderstand you?
There’s still a random element, but mostly in fighting, because your units will perform special moves pretty much randomly. In a sandbox/test game with a friend, his commander got lucky at the start of our duel and performed a knockback strike 3 times at the start, which brought his commander ahead for a while. But in the long run it evens out.
That said, I don’t think DoW2 will be competitive in the sense that Starcraft is competetive. The races are simply too different, and it’s impossible to balance to the extent that SC was. But that also opens up the gameplay and makes it much more varied. It won’t be something Koreans play in tournaments for the next decade, just like the original DoW wasn’t. But it’s far from a random game, and luck doesn’t determine the winner.
If you expect something like SC2, then yes, you’ll be disappointed, and the game isn’t for you. SC has always been about exact fairness and balance, between every side and every unit.
Really looking forward to this one. I always thought DoW was great in shootouts, not so much in base building. So it’s a good thing DoW2 is concentrated on what it does best.
Also, it’s 41st millenium of Only War. Nerd mode off, kthx.
@Logo: I am impressed by the competitive people needs on a RTS. I think is very doable to make a RTS with that guildelines, but is not what most people want to do, for once. Competitive players are a minority (I suppose). Most people want just to have fun and some laughts. CoH was full of these laughts, the way stuff destroy and the terrain change was awesome. More games sould be like CoH.
But I digress… If you guys really need something like that, and devs target is something different (because make games for different people) maybe you guys sould step into dev position, and make a game for your community. Maybe a mod, create a game (or mod) exactly like what you describe.
Or.. what you say, wait for SC2, that seems designed for you guys.
Yeah about those Techmarine turrets… What is the counter to those things if you’ve been pushed all the way back to your base in an annihilation game and you’re not making any real rec/power? Suppression is hugely effective in this game.
I do hope Relic patches in a max limit for the turrets and forces you to dismantle old turrets manually with your commander once your limit has been met.
The base building aspect isn’t something i miss that much. In DOW base building always just felt like you were building your own lifebar in case the enemy got close enough.
That said, it’s pretty fun on a really basic level to change the geography of the battlefield, if only in a little way. I do hope for bigger battlefields and an optional doubled unit cap eventually.
Sunjammer: The obvious counter is to play the game as it was intended, with victory points rather than annihilate… ;)
But yes, SM turrets are probably overpowered at the moment. But ultimately, their weakness will always be their immobility. Walk around them, avoid them, or exploit the fact that they can’t come to each other’s aid. Focus fire on one that’s not within range of other turrets. Sneak around, and retake the req points.
But honestly, if you’ve been pushed back to your base and earn no req, I think you have bigger problems than the turrets. You need to play more agggressive.
The system works! Nabbed myself a beta key. Still plenty left got anyone interested. What a crying shame it is that I’m downloading at around 25kB/s.
Hmm not sure how I managed that fail of a link. Let’s try again.
Cool! How lucky am I? Wake up at 3pm, randomly check RPS and get myself a DoW2 beta key!!! Can’t wait to check it out.
Jalf i don’t have this problem ;) it’s just a hugely effective tactic when I use it. So much so i can’t be bothered playing Techmarine anymore.
The reasonable counter is to use jump troops and get in close for a smashing. But considering the TM can just about spam the things all he has to do is pull back and build another while you’re still wailing on the previous one.
Thanks for the link Kua, I’m in. 350 KB/s download here.
Just a reminder, you need a free Games for Windows Live to play DoW2 online.
Frankly, I’m glad Dawn of War II is a significant gameplay change. Except for Tyranids, they already did pretty much the definitive Dawn of War 1 with Dark Crusade (or, I *guess*, Soulstorm. Blah.). More of the same would have been pretty redundant. You can, after all, always go back and play more Dawn of War 1 if you crave base building and turret chokepoints and such.
Now all I need is Warhammer 40K: Total War. ;P
No base building? Friggen sweet! I’m all for micromanagement, as long as it’s all tactical. Bring on DoW 2!
I am now interested. Not interested enough to pay to access a beta though…
The little touches are truly what make this game great. The fact that every unit shows up on your HUD and is automatically bound to a control group is awesome. How is it this hasn’t been in a game before? The more I play this, the more I like it, and I generally don’t like playing RTS’ versus non-friends.
@Fumarole: what you comments sounds like how Sins of Solar Empire, and others..
Diary:
3.12pm: Remember Eurogamer are giving away 3000 beta keys at three. Imagine they’re all gone.
3.13pm: Go to Eurogamer website. Open beta key giveaway link. Discover 2734 remain.
3.14pm: Can’t remember Eurogamer login details. Created new account.
3.15pm: Logged in. Still 2512 keys remaining. Get one. Wonder what all the fuss was about.
3.32pm: Bless Virgin for 1.1MB/s download speed. Launch game.
3.40pm: Realise I’m terrible at the game.
3.55pm: Discover the game is easier as Tyranids. Think I’m not so bad at it.
4.12pm: Confirmation that I am so bad. Even as Tyranids. Sigh.
Wow, Eduardo, you played it for an hour and decide you’re bad at it?
Methinks you need to invest a little bit more
I just played with a guy called Eduardo, lol. Was that you? I was butlah in that 3v3.
I have to say the game is pretty……………. meh. It strikes me as a contradiction in terms: it has an onus on units, micro and combat, but the speed of a macro, base building RTS.
Which basically means that it’s infuriatingly slow.
Just played my first round and didn’t enjoy it. I’ll give the beta a few more shots before relegating DoW II to “bargain bin purchase 3 years from now” status. Like Butler said: it plays like a base-building RTS sans base-building. At least WiC is action-packed.
Exactly. It’s fighting on WiC’s turf, and it’s a fight it can’t win IMO.
I don’t think it has much in common with WiC. Methinks you need to give it a liiiittle more time before you judge it. ;)
I loved CoH to death, and DoW was darned good; but I like macro, not micro. I like base-building, and I HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE games that are over in the first five minutes; CoH made that a totally solved issue.
There have been so few good RTS games in the last several years. The whole genre has been suffering widespread consolification, with dumbed down and arcadified games abounding (C&C, Red Alert, WiC).
I am not a happy, optimistic panda with regards to the future.
DoW2 is certainly not over in the first five minutes either, any more than CoH was.
I can understand liking basebuilding and such, but calling dow2 “dumbed down” is just silly. It isn’t, and it’s not over in the first five minutes. But it might focus on your least favorite gameplay aspects, and then it’s probably not for you. ;)
I don’t think there’s more micro in DoW2 than in CoH though. The difference is simply that DoW2 allows you to concentrate on it so it doesn’t become the same burden. But CoH had exactly the same elements of microing. You still had to tell your units to use cover, you still had to tell them when to use grenades, or which unit they should attack. None of that has changed.
I think the whole “micro vs macro” discussion is completely missing the point. RTS’es have never been about macro. As long as you have to watch the fights and order your units to move or attack, it’s micro. And show me a RTS where not doing those things was a viable strategy.
I don’t like it.
– It needs LIVE, that is fun as herpes.
– …actually, is all built with a consoley style.
– If you hate the L4D matchmarking stuff, you will hate this game even more.
– Confusing GUI in-game.
– Ignore all the comments about “squad based”. DOW1 was squad base. This one is about 4 guys and chief. Thats not a squad, thats more like a music group. You can control more stuff in AoC with the necro.
– Combat is confusing.
Everything else is very good, and playing with friends against a AI machines (coop) maybe is fun. Against other people, is just too confusing.
Wow i have the exact opposite experiences as naysayers here:
- Live is, unfortunately, completely alright once it’s up and going. I’m not bothered by it beyond the initial setup phase. It does help that i already have an XBL account.
- It *IS* quite consoley. But none of its consoley bits bother me the slightest. This is not DX:IW territory.
- The GUI is completely clear to me; Keyboard shortcuts are abundantly clear, control groups are predeclared in the order of unit construction, and it takes a quick glance to the top right to get an assessment of everyone’s status. I flopped around in it for a couple of games, now it’s totally fine.
- It’s totally squad based. It’s about a chief and 4 SQUADS. There be squads! Squaaads! It’s a squaddy game!
- The pace is far from slow. So much so that i can effectively retreat a unit from a skirmish on the far side of the map, reinforce them at the stronghold and still have time to get them back in the skirmish before it’s done. It really does depend on the kind of army you’re playing. If you think the game is slow, play some Eldar.
- Cover is FAR easier to get into than in CoH. CoH, for me, was one of the most taxing games ever. I wanted to love it, but it just wore me down. Too much bloody micro in too many corners of the map at the same time. With DoW2 the unit count is low enough that i can successfully micro two separate skirmishes without ever losing track of what’s going on. I am NOT good at micro, but it feels genuinely fun in DoW2 as opposed to toil.
- I think people are playing it wrong. Don’t, DON’T play annihilation games. My god, the boredom! And don’t play 1v1! This is a game where you “are” your commander dude, and the makeup of your force are the weapons you equip him with. Play it 2v2 or ideally higher. The more commanders are on the map the more tactically complex and rewarding the game becomes. 1v1 is like playing 1v1 counterstrike or something, it just makes no sense.
- You kind of need to use voice comms online.. Just saying..
Anyway i’m stoked. And i’ve gone from “what the helll….. gahhhh…..” to being really excited.
Live is horrible. I’m getting far more NAT negotiation failures than in DoW and CoH combined. People get disconnected or lag out impressively often. And the GfW interface is a monstrosity. Try timing how long it takes to invite 5 friends to a game.
Now try the opposite, one of your 5 friends is hosting a game, but you don’t know who. How long will it take you to join his game?
Now contrast this with Steam. shift-tab to pull up friends list *instantly, with no fancy animations slowing it down*, right click->invite on each friend, without having to open his profile or anything.
The GfW interface is *ridiculous*. Yes, it might have worked on 360, but sheesh, on PC…
Apart from that, I agree with Sunjammer on the above.
RTS’es have never been about macro. As long as you have to watch the fights and order your units to move or attack, it’s micro. And show me a RTS where not doing those things was a viable strategy.
Urgh. Supreme Commander and Total Annihilation being the obvious ones.
With SC and WC being the best of both worlds, with heavy, demanding micro and a quite indepth base building and expansion necessary to get anywhere…
That top paragraph was meant to be in :/
I have no idea what people are complaining about. DOW2 is the first RTS in a while that’s really got me hooked. With a few tweaks (as in, is it just me, or are the Eldar a little OP?) and some stability fixes, this game will go down as one of the year’s greatest. WiC is a great game, but I don’t see the comparisons. They feel like totally different games to me.
So, anyone who reads this that may be on the fence. Try it out. I went in with low expectations after hearing all the complaints here and found the game to be incredibly engaging. I’ve already pre-ordered through steam and am counting down the days until release. Hell, you too can try it starting tomorrow, anyway….
That’s my two cents…or quid….or whatever it is you guys say over yonder.
@jalf “I don’t think there’s more micro in DoW2 than in CoH though. The difference is simply that DoW2 allows you to concentrate on it so it doesn’t become the same burden. But CoH had exactly the same elements of microing.”
That’s exactly what dumbed down means in this context. They made the game easier to manage in order to appease to more casual players. For players that could manage all aspects of CoH highly efficiently, DoW2 is dumbed down.
@ jalf and devildogff
the only comparison made to WiC was the bias towards unit management as oppose to base management. I don’t see the problem with that comparison.
I’m not dismissing the game – I don’t think anyone is – more just voicing my initial impressions. And to me, it seems to have a fundamental flaw.
Butler,
No, I agree…after looking at your comment again, your comparison was more than fair. My apologies.
I guess it all comes down to flavor. I like DOW2’s flavor; you may not. Totally acceptable. Just means more DOW2 for me :)
But don’t get me wrong. I see some problems. Just nothing so bad that it turned me off in the slightest. Now I just need to get better at it so that my losses don’t outnumber my wins…
Eldar OP? Dunno about that. I’ve had way, way tougher fights against Orks. As with any DoW2 game, supporting melee units with ranged firepower is tantamount. Eldar are traditionally *under*powered by virtue of being so damn specialized they fall apart when separated, and have their fleet of foot skill to compensate for that. They also die when there’s a breeze; guardian squads just disappear under heavy weapons fire, and aside from upgraded banshees most Eldar are extremely vulnerable to close combat.
One thing that’s easy to forget is that even units that aren’t dedicated melee units are often times better at melee than their adversaries. Space marines shooting it out with guardians for instance is sort of hilarious once you send those dudes in for melee.
My only complaint about this game is that there is no push to talk, and that it doesn’t scale down far enough; I’m going to need a new box for this. Fuck.
Does anyone else find the icons in the UI of this game too small?
I’m inclined to agree with you, Sunjammer, except that Howling Banshees with the Exarch and the Aspect upgrade are deadly. Even a single squad can rip through infantry and vehicles alike, if they manage to close the distance. War shout suppresses infantry, vehicles get torn to shreds with their upgrades blades, they do lots of knockdown against infantry while meleeing… They’re lovely.
@jalf
Cover and garrisoning in CoH was random from what I remember for a few reasons. For garrisoning you couldn’t pick which window to have your units station at when loaded in the building. On top of that each window had a set arc and possibly exposed you to fire. So it wasn’t uncommon to see your unit garrison in a poor window and get gunned down. I believe you could learn the patterns of how the buildings loaded but it seems kinda shallow and annoying in comparison to being able to move the crew to the window you want them at or some other mechanic.
For cover the problem in CoH that I had was that you could have some units ‘outside’ of the cover taking extra damage simply by the way the AI positioned your squad. Also the cover I believe worked as part of a % chance situation. So instead of a sure thing cover could, by roll of the dice, be completely worthless to you. CoH in general had a large amount of randomness to it from what I remember (fine for a game aimed at casual players but it kills any competition of the game). If you can’t rely on certain rules and truths (like you can that 1 zealot beats 1 zergling in a straight up fight) then would you really want to have tournament winnings relying on it?
@Tei
Oh don’t get me wrong I’m more than happy to see more games come out that expand the genre even if they aren’t competitive. It’s just that beyond the ‘craft series there really isn’t anything for the competitive RTS scene at the moment. I think I’m ‘disappointed’ (which I’m not until I actually play the game on the 27th/28th) because I really enjoyed the original DoW other than initial balance/bug issues. So if I can’t get into DoW2 like I could DoW1 it’d be a disappointment for me
The RTS genre is lacking when it comes to casual online matches. BF2: join server and play. TF2: join server and play. CS: join server and play. Then leave whenever, no real obligations. I guess it’s because FPS games are so alike that you only have to really learn it once. Try going from StarCraft to SupCom to DoW to C&C…each one is totally different. I don’t have the time or patience to master each game’s esoteric interfaces and random damage calculators and build orders.
Outside of WiC, I’ve yet to play an online RTS that’s friendly to those of us who don’t spend hours mastering hotkeys and unit clicks. As much as I like the genre for single-player, I think that it sucks ass when it comes to multiplayer, but maybe I’m an exception. DoW II seems like a step in the right direction, I just find it incredibly boring.
I flatter myself that I became pretty expert at Company of Heroes, and the only hotkeys I ever used were control groups. I found the mouse perfectly adequate for the game’s intense micromanagement otherwise.
Despite playing RTS games since ‘97, CoH was the first one I became actually good at. I strongly believe that anyone can do so, and from the beta, I think Dawn of War 2 is the same.