By Quintin Smith on February 3rd, 2009 at 7:38 am.
And now, in a feature I like to call Forbidden Discourse: The Oily Fruit of the Broken Heart, we present an interview with Ice-Pick Lodge CEO Nikolay Dybowskiy and all-purpose Ice Pick developer Aleksey “the LxR” Luchin. Ice-Pick are of course the Russian studio responsible for the award-winning Pathologic and The Void, two fascinating PC games.
I could give this chat an introduction about how the attitude that comes across in it gives me hope, but screw it. Instead I’ll just say that this interview proves just how much these guys are Doing It Right.
RPS: Between Pathologic and The Void it’s clear you guys invest almost unheard-of levels of creativity into your games, to the point of making them unlike anything else available today. Where does this drive to be different come from?
Frankly, we never specifically aimed for being not-like-others. What we do began as an attempt at a cultural experiment. Back then, in 2002, we wrote a manifesto, in which we proposed that the computer game is a new, independent form of art with huge and yet unexplored potential.
For us it means primarily that games possesses a unique arsenal of specific “tools” — ones that, unfortunately, we are yet to discover and master — that will allow this artistic form to become the language of the age we live in. We believe that the computer game could become “art of the XXI century” — just like cinema became, to some extent, the primary form of art of the XX century.
And so our studio was born as an artistic laboratory. We decided to set a few experiments — test some ideas, confirm some assumptions and find the artistic tools, unique for the computer game form. Not ones borrowed from the filmmaking industry, painting or literature — but ones based on the uniqueness of playing a game, specific to the form from the very beginning. Ones based on the player’s freedom of choice, irreversibility, non-linearity and pseudo non-linearity of the process in real time… and, of course, many others.
The Russian gaming publications (and some foreign ones) compliment our games for the rare “literature level” of the script, the “artististry” of the visual design and for the ability to use cultural references from movies. But we don’t credit ourselves for any of these. It’s clear that games are a synthetic artform, and therefore attempts to master cultural heritage in order to add “profoundness” to the game might seem like the easiest way. But that’s wrong, proven by the death of post-modernism.
To unlock the true cultural potential of the computer game enormous effort must be put into it, and a huge job done. And here, unfortunately, we didn’t achieve much. But the general feeling of originality (in Pathologic) must have come from the gameplay being oriented towards a catharsis.
RPS: So let’s talk discoveries. If Pathologic is or was a grand exercise in decision making, what were the results? And after seven years spent making games, which tools do you think you’re starting to understand?
We’re not ready to talk about the results just yet. To harvest and process the result of artistic work there needs to be an important twist or change in your outlook, or you must achieve some new level of maturity.
For now I can only say that the material turned out unsuspectedly and is proving exceptionally difficult and refractory. The root of everything is the player’s freedom of choice. The rich variation in the player’s possible behavior rarely allows us to create “predictable environments and situations” (as proposed by Stanislavsky for the theatre). Frankly, a man is usually not ready to entertain himself — he wants to have a shooting range built for him, then be solemnly led into it, given a gun and offered a variety of targets to shoot at.
In order for the player’s decision to mean anything these “predictable environments” must be directed — and that’s where the turf for research is nearly unlimited. The main idea to keep in mind is that the player must not feel that the game is “working” with the simulation of a player that came before him, but with himself directly — the guy who is actually sitting in front of the monitor. The hero’s problems should derive from the player’s problems. There are no recipes or laws to follow here — everything depends on the setting, the game’s world and the key goal.
For example, in our current game — Tension / The Void — the game begins with the death of the main character (who is never shown or referred too), who was lucky enough for his soul to linger in a strange place called the Void. Our main goal as the developers is to make the player believe that he’s playing the game in order to save his own soul from disappearing completely. And who knows, what really can happen to your soul in real life and what not? ;)
Besides solving this damned problem — the freedom of the player in an “ethically pre-set” setting, the most intriguing directions for research are the flow of real time (the problems of irreversibility of actions) and the potential of Chaos (random events and conditions) within the game world, that, nevertheless, must carry an ethical and meaningful sense.
RPS: One element that links Pathologic and The Void is… not so much an unflinching look at death, because the death in both games never seems meant to shock. The death is just there. Would you put that down to your being a Russian studio?
Catharsis always assumes a vivid death experience. Always. And if you remember Aristotle, the meaning of catharsis is in metamorphosis, in this case the metamorphosis of the gamer. The metamorphose is a “ritual” event that assumes a “small death” of the person that went through it. For a new, enlightened man to be born, the old one has to “die”.
Death itself doesn’t interest us. We’re people who quite like life, it’s just that some of us are more drawn to the dark side of Existence. And the experience of death in a game is a clear challenge for the player, one that he must stand up to.
It’s quite flattering that our games are associated with Russian national traditions because one of our aims is to build the foundation of the “Russian school” of game development. Culture does exist in the national form, there’s no running away from that. We can’t run away from our history, our language — and, frankly, we don’t want to. It’s the national tradition that defines the unique style of each art form and its individual contribution into the world common tradition.
What’s peculiar is that you tied this to the image of death. Russia is inclined towards dark, solemn thoughts in the fundamental questions of human existence, but I wouldn’t say that the Russian tradition experiences the phenomenon of death as sharply and substantially as the rest of European culture. For example, we never had anything like the “dances macabres” or the Barocco culture. But that’s a subject for another time.
RPS: Okay, well aside from a tendancy towards the sombre what would you say are some of the hallmarks and beliefs of Russian games development? From what I’ve played I’ve noticed a fair few of the heavy-handed politcal allegories and spoken debates that populate Russian literature and film.
Actually, compared to the exceptionally rich and vivid traditions of Russian literature and cinematography the contemporary game development is dull, grey and secondary. In my opinion at the moment it’s only the Russian studio Phantomery Interactive and the Ukrainian studio Action Forms who dare to experiment with form and content. Andrew
But we don’t feel we have the right to speak for an entire country. One thing is doubtless, which is that there can be no talk of national individuality in Russian gamedev. Not many are interested in it and the major developers cynically sell out to the crowd, taking pride in successfully copying foreign hits. But we hope this is just a matter of the age we live in.
The most important task is to involve the ‘thinking’ part of the public in gaming and wait for the appearance of intelligent game journalism and criticism. As soon as the average level of intelligence of players and journalists rises, developers will respond immediately.
RPS: More than anything else the design of your games reminds me of the attitude that was so often present in Amiga games – a collection of ideas stitched together, most of them just crazy enough to work. Does your team harbour any disappointment that the rest of the European games industry has grown up to play things so safely?
Of course, one would always want to have a decent artistic competition. I dream of a luxuriant “Renaissance of gaming” when not only the Japanese, but the American, French, English and Russian game industries will create many bright talents, and when players will ask more from the developers — because that’s when our dream comes to life.
Games will find and acquire their own language. And when they do, everyone will have to use it, and thus develop it (neatly paralleling now, when AAA projects feel they have to use stereotypes from other genres). It’ll happen inevitably — it’s just a matter of time. And most likely the decisive factor to this event will be the appearance of a bright personality, a genius of game development, or possibly even more than just that.
But now it looks like the best thing to do is just work and wait for the cultural breakthrough, bringing it closer as best we can, little by little bringing more intelligence to the boundaries of game production. “Dig the soil that the genius will plant seed into”.
RPS: Are there any other large development studios out there that you feel are pushing in the same direction as you? Which is to say, teams focused on learning to use the artistic tools of this new medium instead of leaning on the stereotypes of other genres.
We’ve already mentioned Andrew
Right now we’re waiting for him to wake from his stasis and shock the world with a new revolutionary idea.
RPS: This one’s for both Nikolay and Aleksey- what are you favourite games? Or alternatively, which videogames do you each find most inspiring.
Nikolay: My favourite one is Thief: The Dark Project. Others include American McGee’s Alice, Metal Gear Solid and the Silent Hill series. I’ve got very good impressions from at least half of the Japanese games I’ve yet encountered (which, by the way, a good example of a national gamedev). And, well, I can’t deny it- I love Planescape: Torment and Fallout… But I must note that I only love this games because my life took the path it did, and not because they illustrate our credo.
Aleksey: As for me, I can distinguish the following games: Silent Hill 2 is definitely the best attempt at interactive storytelling, and a very successful one — not many games have managed to repeat its successes. And from what I can say right off my tongue, there’s Call Of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth and that’s about it. I’m also greatly in love with the original Fallouts (1 and 2), Vangers, Perimeter, American McGee’s Alice and… Duke Nukem 3D. You can’t forget the classics that managed to be so revolutionary — I still believe that Duke 3D offers unprecedented levels of interactivity that only some contemporary games manage to achieve. And I’m fascinated by anything Tale of Tales made and will ever make (Hi, Auriea, hi Michael!).
Of course, my favorite games of all are the ones that haven’t been made yet. ;) Many concept ideas are wandering in my head, concepts which will hopefully someday be brought to life — maybe a story of a crashed ship with the people you managed to help escape stranded on an uninhabited island (would really like to have A Silver Mt. Zion’s “Mountains Made Of Steam” as part of the soundtrack for this one); or a game about an expedition into the unknown, where one has to keep in mind that his initial resources are the only ones he’ll ever have; or a lyrical fairy tale about a girl who wakes up in a frozen deserted city and realizes that there’s a strange being somewhere here — this one I’ve thought of with my best friend and the one behind the modeling in Tension / The Void, Alexander Jukov.
RPS: When I reviewed Pathologic for RPS the overwhelming response from the people who then went out and bought it was that they could glimpse what you were trying to do, but couldn’t bring themselves to face the drudgery and confusion of it and stopped playing after an hour or two. Is that something you were expecting when you made the game?
Aleksey: No, of course not. You see, “Pathologic” is just our first attempt, and it didn’t turn out like it was meant to be in many respects. It’s our lack of experience that stood in the way. The fact that Pathologic was developed as a “uncomfortable” game doesn’t forgive our game design mistakes. Or the horrible English translation, which we, unfortunately, didn’t have much influence over. With Tension/Turgor/The Void we decided to do the English translation in-house and pretty much succeeded — the people who played the Russian with English subtitles were positive about the quality (here I would like to thank hydra9 for all the help he offered with proof-reading and stylistic fixes! Without you, the translation wouldn’t be nearly as good! — The LxR).
So, if we were to remake Pathologic (and we’re thinking about it) — we’d do a lot of things differently.
03/02/2009 at 08:40 Mythrilfan says:
Our own hydra9? I should have known!
03/02/2009 at 08:43 Satsuz says:
Man oh man, these guys are really growing on me.
Let’s hope their ambition is infectious enough to catch the whole industry. We’re a little young for a renaissance, but I dig the idea that there’s so much room to grow (you have to peak before you can peak again, is what I guess I’m trying to say). “The sky’s the limit!”, and all that.
03/02/2009 at 08:43 Ben Abraham says:
These guys are treading SUCH a fine line between being Ballsy and being just plain arrogant. The language of these guys is so certain. Everything is “must”, “absolutely”, “definitely”…I hope for their sake The Void is absolutely stunning.
27/04/2011 at 21:01 oldmanflabby says:
thats EXACTLY what i was trying to say (just better)
03/02/2009 at 08:58 The Poisoned Sponge says:
Really awesome interview.. these guys seem like they really know what they’re trying to do.
Also, they like A Silver Mt.Zion, so that’s sold them to me.
03/02/2009 at 09:12 ilurker says:
To be honest, the part that excited me the most was that they’re thinking about remaking Pathologic. If ever there was a game deserving a second go to do itself justice, it’s that.
03/02/2009 at 09:13 rob says:
Fantastic interview from one of the most exciting developers out there. More games inspired by ASMZ please!
03/02/2009 at 09:33 Subject 706 says:
Devs that actually have an artistic vision, and don’t just toss around meaningless buzzwords like ‘next-gen’, are always refreshing. Sort of like an antithesis to that Blezinski idiot.
03/02/2009 at 09:38 Throdax says:
@Ben
Well Tension/Turgor/The Void is stunning :)
At least from my point of view.
—
Interesting interview all in all. It is always good to know the motivations and methodology that creates the paradigm in which a game developing company works on.
At the same time I was a bit disappointed as I was expecting more juicy details about the English Tension/Turgor/The Void release, but oh well at least now I know how the game starts (the intro doesn’t have subs).
I think the art design and art work of Tension would make a fine interview by itself.
03/02/2009 at 09:42 Rosti says:
And miss a wonderful chance to use the Quinns tag again?
More importantly, ace interview. More Of This Sort Of Thing, obv.
03/02/2009 at 11:06 The LxR says:
Looks like a lot of people TL;DR’ed out of this one :-D
03/02/2009 at 11:21 Orange says:
It’s not too long :)
Very good interview, didn’t get to try Pathologic but I’ll look out for the Void.
03/02/2009 at 11:22 Lord Retro says:
“I hope for their sake The Void is absolutely stunning”
Ben, have you seen the trailer? That was stunning enough…and that was before it started showing me naked women.
http://www.tension-game.com/files_en.php#music
03/02/2009 at 11:24 windlab says:
Fascinating read, many thanks to Nikolay Dybowskiy and Aleksey Luchin for being interviewed by RPS.
I want to know what goes on in the mind of Russian game dev.s that leads the to create such… bleak games.
03/02/2009 at 11:26 ylw says:
Great interview. Like others have said, they walk a fine line but it’s to be expected. Pathologic was such a unique experience I’ll try anything they have to offer.
03/02/2009 at 11:28 Brother None says:
Ooof.
They’ve got the kind of interesting ideas you would expect to result in such an interesting game as Pathologic. Whether or not it’s “right” might remain to be seen; it is easy to create a kind of digital view of art vs commercialism that is not really representative of reality. A lot of what we call art now was developed from commercial viewpoints, and a lot of art never reaches the level where it is distinguished as such no matter what the intentions.
And did they really have to pad their fluff with that much needless intellectualisms? The best way to state truly intelligent ideas is in simple language, you’re only selling yourself short by trying to sound smart. Frith in the sky, I wish more people realised that by now.
03/02/2009 at 11:48 yhancik says:
That was a good read !
I’m not only looking forward Tension, but also their 10 next games :p
03/02/2009 at 11:58 Dozer says:
To be honest I only understood about one paragraph in five because they’re using terms I don’t understand. But it seems like they’ve got a clear idea of what they’re doing, and that’s very good from my point-of-view!
03/02/2009 at 12:19 Rook says:
To be honest I only understood about one paragraph in five because they’re using terms I don’t understand.
A bit like playing pathologic then.
03/02/2009 at 12:36 Vandelay says:
Pathologic is a game that I do mean to try out and some point when there is a drought in games and I have some cash to spend. This interview has made me more interested in finding out about the direction they want to take.
I share their view that gaming can become an important art in the 21st century and we are already seeing this from the commercial side of the industry. Hopefully the growing wealth of the games industry will allow for more experimental developers to emerge.
And a shout out for Call of Cthulhu is always good to see.
03/02/2009 at 12:36 Dan Harris says:
Fabulous. Love the attitude. Good luck to them.
Also, as an aside, there are so many phrases in here that you just aren’t going to read in interviews with 95% of other games devs. My personal favourite is:
‘But that’s wrong, proven by the death of post-modernism.’
Of course. Everyone knows that :p
03/02/2009 at 12:37 Xagarath says:
Been sold on these people since I first tried Pathologic after that Eurogamer review.
Here’s hoping The Void gets the kind of attention they deserve.
03/02/2009 at 12:52 Jonas says:
They seem to really like Aristotle, huh?
03/02/2009 at 12:54 Heliocentric says:
The naked women in the void actually puts me off.
I’d like it if they can offer a suitable censorship without simply sticking the nudes in bikinis. But here i am the oppressed english family man. Sexuality is a private matter.
03/02/2009 at 13:20 mrrobsa says:
Wonderful stuff. I wish this creative and thoughtful team every success. I also look forward to other dev teams across the world springing up with the same level of thematic creativity going into their games. Definitely have to track down and play Pathologic now.
@ Brother None: ‘….needless intellectualisms’
Not sure which parts you’re referring to but everything I read seemed relevant to this team’s design and development process. And sometimes simple words won’t do, some ideas are best expressed through ‘complicated’ words with their associated connotations, which the simpler words would fail to do justice.
03/02/2009 at 13:24 jay says:
Entertaining and interesting interview (and I actually read it LxR!).
03/02/2009 at 13:38 ET says:
Funnily enough, I didn’t notice any ‘intellectualisms’, at least not in the level that I’d call it such. There IS some uncanny valley-styled English going on, which may be why it could some a bit odd, but nothing too complicated.
But I do agree on the ballsy thing. Hopefully the game is stunning. And hopefully Pathologic would get a remake. I’d love to try that game when it’s not broken!
03/02/2009 at 13:51 Feet says:
@ LxR: I think it’s less TL:DR and more a case of people not being used to the mindset and attitude you have regarding game development. I really don’t know how to respond to what you say in the interview myself, it’s kinda blown my mind abit. The whole “are games art or just entertainment\escapism” subject has been done alot in the past but only by poncy games journos and never in such “heavy” terms as you guys or really by any games devs as far as I’m aware.
The proof of the pudding, as they say, is in the eating. Suffice to say I’ll be checking out Tension\The Void once the English version is available to see how close you come to your philosophy. :)
03/02/2009 at 14:19 tWB says:
These guys are treading SUCH a fine line between being Ballsy and being just plain arrogant.
I’ll take arrogance in my artists, though. The Nation recently ran two articles by Ted Solotaroff about his time as a literary critic for Commentary during its heyday (before Podhoretz took the sharp right ideological turn that poisoned his journal), and it sparked a nostalgia in me for the days when artists were, unapologetically, artists — in failure perhaps more than success.
03/02/2009 at 14:40 dhex says:
that was crazy delicious.
though trying to imagine a game that uses mountains made of steam is a bit hard – though i think a case could be made for 1,000,000 died…
03/02/2009 at 14:53 Heliocentric says:
I need to play pathologic, saw it on gamers gate for $15 anyone seen a better price? Gamers gate don’t tend to be dicks(charges/activation limits) when you redownload do they?
03/02/2009 at 14:53 rob says:
Every time I hear Dead Flag Blues I think of some sort of post-apocalyptic Max Payne.
03/02/2009 at 15:06 Cooper42 says:
That was wonderful, thankyou.
I’ve recently gone back to Pathologic, after only having got through 4 days before. I’m finding it much better now I’ve picked it up again; like Planescape Torment (another game I put down and will probably go back to) you have to be in a very different frame of mind to play it. It is a disconcerting, awkward and uncomfortable game, and, like literary works which do the same, this is not something you can pick up any old time. But I’ve been really getting back into it recently.
I’m loving the style of English in this interview. Wonderfully florid. Also, I can’t think of any interview I’ve read with game developers that discusses the cultural relevance of their work with such insight, and can so easily bring Aristotle’s notions of metamorphosis into the interview…
I agree with before, even if this does sound arrogant – with the ‘musts’ and ‘wills’, that’s fine. I like my artists to be strong in their beliefs.
03/02/2009 at 15:16 Al King says:
Yeah, the interview is pretty frank and down to earth. I mean, they’re talking about the way they think about games and Russian cultural heritage, so it’s heady stuff, but I don’t see unwarranted “intellectualisms”.
The only thing that might seem out of left field is discussion of ‘catharsis’, but it’s a cultural formula that comes up often – just as ‘anagnorisis’ is embodied in ‘the big reveal’, ‘ecstasis’ in being ‘out of oneself’, and as the hero’s journey archetype crops up everywhere from Star Wars to the Odyssey. You can’t scorn preciseness. Also, IcePick have a history of making use of Greek tragic ideas, like in Pathologic where masked players address the players themselves conjuring the whole ‘other reality’ idea of Greek drama.
Man, this comment is already sounding more pretentious than the fleeting mention it’s defending.
Ben, I don’t see anything really arrogant here, most of the imperatives are either personal or obvious. I’ll hope that The Void is stunning either way ;)
But anyway: loved the interview, and loved the spirit of Pathologic in spite of the crappy translation; I’m sure we’ll see great, or at least though-provoking, things to come.
03/02/2009 at 15:21 Grandstone says:
What’s this Barocco culture they’re talking about? The mixture of Baroque art and a French furniture style? What does that have to do with experiencing death any more sharply than Russia?
03/02/2009 at 15:33 Kieron Gillen says:
In passing, I tend to think the Creative act is intrinsicaly an arrogant act. Getting on the stage in the first place requires a certain amount of ego: “I am worth listening to”.
KG
03/02/2009 at 15:37 Ian Dorsch says:
Great interview, thanks! I definitely agree on the Doing It Right assessment. Ice Pick Lodge’s goals as game developers–and the uncompromising approach that they are taking to those goals–are inspiring to see. I look forward to experiencing the fruits of their labors.
03/02/2009 at 15:37 Dan Harris says:
I think it’s just the Latin which English translates into ‘Baroque’. Not sure what he means by Baroque culture though, if that is the case – Wikipedia thinks Baroque was “exemplified by drama and grandeur in sculpture, painting, literature, dance, and music”.
So maybe that.
03/02/2009 at 16:07 Grandstone says:
A big criticism was that Baroque didn’t have much substance, even if it was technically brilliant, so the passing reference might have been Ice Pick’s way of saying Fuck You to Western developers.
As far as the Danse Macabre comment: I think Russian writers’ investigations of guilt and death are sharper and more substantial than a medieval folk art tradition. But I guess we’re talking more about cultures and less about individuals in those cultures. Oh well.
03/02/2009 at 16:08 Pavel says:
REMAKE PATHOLOGIC with perfect english translation and release it everywhere.
Thank you.
03/02/2009 at 16:11 Al King says:
Grandstone, you’re thinking Rococo :P But you know, Medieval culture is full of morbid recognition of death, memento moris and all that.
03/02/2009 at 16:18 grmnf says:
Hello,
to just slightly abuse this comment area:
I’ve read that there’s a patch for Turgor to get English subtitles. Is that true, and if so, does anyone know about that? Because that would be the perfect reason to buy the Russian version. I don’t want a – speculatively – toned down version if I can have the “real deal” with subs.
And just to throw in some random opinion. I think Pathologic was awesome – but I can’t be sure, because after several hours my frustration-tolerance just ceased to exist ;)
03/02/2009 at 16:19 McCool says:
I couldn’t be much happier after reading this article. Games developers aren’t meant to say these things, these are the laments passed between disgrunted gaming pseudo intellectuals on the way out of philosophy class.
Jesus, if this stuff doesn’t make you want to make a game I dont know what will.
03/02/2009 at 16:30 The LxR says:
@ Grandstone: Sorry, this was a mistranslation of mine – I did it in a hurry. I meant, Baroque: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroque
@ grmnf: There is one, the only way to get it is ask me, BUT you’re wanting it for all the wrong reasons – we’re making the English version better, than the Russian one. That’s why we bothered to enchance it anyway
@ all: Thank you for the positive feedback. :) Now we feel even more motivated to make the game better, as we can see that many people actually need our work!
03/02/2009 at 16:33 The LxR says:
@ kobzon: What the hell are you talking about? :) Everyone’s cool, no stereotyping there.
03/02/2009 at 16:33 Jake R. says:
@ Kieron: I think this probably applies to game design more than other types of art due to the necessity of intention. You can claim arrogance or pretension on the part of an artist who feels driven or compelled to paint/compose and probably be right, but there’s the outside chance that it really is just some deeply personal and largely uncontrolled convulsion of content generation on their part. An egoless experience in gaming, on the other hand, is only really possible for the end-user. The complexity of game design and programming practically demands that arrogance and conscious intent.
03/02/2009 at 16:36 Jim Rossignol says:
Funnily the head of 1c games division says the same thing, that Russian developers want to create bleak games, or “the next Fallout”. Is he guilty of amateur culturology too?
03/02/2009 at 16:41 The LxR says:
@ Jim Rossignol: It’s an internal joke with a rich background. :) It’s based on the fact that every college student team out there wants to do the game of their dreams as their first game. Usually, it’s Fallout MMORPG or the like. :)
03/02/2009 at 16:45 kobzon says:
They wanna make dark games ’cause they’re underrepresented, but yeah, it was a humorous comment. I’m all for curling up into a little ball and crying. In games.
03/02/2009 at 17:10 Noc says:
Grandstone: Three seconds of Wikipedia searching produces this. Which is quite relevant.
And, personally? I was very pleasantly surprised by this interview. Not because it wasn’t the sort of thing I’d expect from Icepick, but because it’s so atypical of what we tend to hear from game developers. This struck me particularly clearly as I was looking up Borocco, and recalled this article from a few days ago.
03/02/2009 at 17:12 Noc says:
Re: Borocco: Or, not. Hooray coincidences!
03/02/2009 at 17:22 Cooper42 says:
I do think there is something to be explored in regards to what Russian and Eatsern European ex-Soviet states bring in regards to cultural background to game making. Clearly you can generalise too much, but, like the golden era of British games making before hand, there is certainly something distinctive about the gaming flavours we’re getting from these developers. And a good thing too, given that AAA titles from the US are currently conjured up from stale Hollywood tropes. It’s something I keep trying to wrangle in as a side project during my current research around Chernobyl; hopefully I can pull a month off to write it up.
03/02/2009 at 17:25 Pijama says:
When art needs some serious refresh of perspective, say, a somewhat different look that investigates some of our darker corners, you can rely on the Russians to bring a damn good one.
Oh, don’t look at me like that. Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky makes the case for me. Or perhaps War and Peace by Tolstoy?
Fact is – If there is a people suited to do this kind of stuff, it is the children of the Rus. :D
03/02/2009 at 17:33 Pags says:
Hydra9 was behind the translation? Small world!
I would dearly like to make a long comment on this, particularly on the remark that gaming could be the artform for the XXI century because I’ve always thought about the parallels between the way movies and gaming have grown up, but sadly my hands hurt from shovelling snow.
Oh, and to coincide with Pijama’s comment, I would like to point out how rapidly culture matures in Russia; the Russian language, for example, being very young when Dostoyevsky and Tolstoy were writing what are still some of the most defining works of the past couple of centuries.
03/02/2009 at 17:36 ZIGS says:
I first downloaded Pathologic and then I bought a legit copy on Ebay. It’s the kind of game you JUST have to own. Unfortunately, I got stuck on a quest (had to analyze some blood samples under the microscope but it didn’t do nothing) so I stopped playing it. I WANT that remake, I WANT to finish this game :)
Also looking forward for The Void, I just hope Atari won’t mangle it beyond recognition (heard the game will suffer lots of changes to “adapt” it to the western market). Hopefully some fan will add English subtitles to use with the original version :D
03/02/2009 at 17:41 Halfgild Wynac says:
2ZIGS: No, as we said it already, the game will suffer for its own good. As through suffering it will be reborn and rise as a new, better game.
03/02/2009 at 17:44 Dominic White says:
@ZIGS, and others:
Don’t worry about The Void. From what I’ve heard (you can get the skinny from LxR and other Ice-Pick dudes over on the Unknown Pleasures thread for the game), they’re doing a Witcher-esque ‘enhanced edition’, and will be relaunching the game (or offering a download upgrade, not sure) in Russia as well.
Among the content is new locations, new enemies, new dialogue and general improvements across the board.
03/02/2009 at 18:07 Tei says:
I have played a few hours of “Pathologic”, and what I like, is the textures, and the big eyes of characters. How baroque is all that, I love it. Othar than that, is a impenetrable game, I am still around looking stuff, maybe I will “get it” soon.
03/02/2009 at 19:16 dhex says:
“Oh, don’t look at me like that. Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoevsky makes the case for me. Or perhaps War and Peace by Tolstoy?”
the master and margarita.
03/02/2009 at 19:32 Helm says:
This interview was full of agree from me. I am actually tempted to submit resume and move to Russia to join them, heh.
And they noted Vangers! Amazing!
03/02/2009 at 19:54 grmnf says:
@LxR
Oh, ok. It sounded differently elsewhere, but if even you say the English version will be better, that would be awesome :)
Anyway, getting the patch would still be awesome. If you’d be so kind, my e-mail adress is fuslz[at]web[dot]de – that way I’d be able to play both versions :)
03/02/2009 at 21:11 Markoff Chaney says:
For sure, speaking in simple, small words can help when one is speaking to the lowest common denominator. On the other hand, when you are intelligent and properly plan out your words AND you are writing/speaking to an intelligent community, you tend to use words they know, and can convey a richer tapestry of your creative vision.
Communication is only communication if one side sends and one receives. Speaking to your audience is a good thing. Now, if this were a company that makes Petz: Imagine Dreamz 4 and they talked like this, I’d appreciate the delicious irony. As I can already tell from playing Pathologic these devs actually think and want to create emotion and for us to think as well. For them to speak intelligently and communicate with others of intelligence is surely not a bad thing. I know I couldn’t communicate that well in Russian. I could probably get away with saying Yes and No…
There’s nothing wrong with speaking too smart, in my opinion. If people can’t understand it, so be it. Maybe they aren’t ready to hear. That’s not the speaker’s fault. However, speaking too dumb can be something you never get away from. Especially when you make games that engage the brain and make you think. For some of us, you have to go way out there to engage us. For some, you just have to put a box there for us to bash.
To many extents, any time any one utters anything they are being self important. They are speaking from their own self perspective and, by nature, are being subjective about their experience they are relating. Perhaps they want to share something personal, a subjective perception of a singular event, which makes it a hair’s step from narrating a true psychotic event.
My own hair’s-breadth away from psychotic ramblings aside, allow me to say I’m looking forward greatly to thinking about The Void (Tension) and would love a cleaned up Pathologic (but I’ve told you guys this before). I love reading what is going on in the heads of my favorite creators. Some, like David Lynch, don’t like sharing where many of their ideas and concepts come from. Others do. Thank You, Ice-Pick Lodge, for sharing. I love exploring the head space you let us in. Can’t wait for your new world to explore either…
03/02/2009 at 21:49 ZIGS says:
@Dominic White:
A Witcher-esque ‘enhanced edition’ huh? I hope that’s true, here’s a quote from a The Reticule article:
“The game is undergoing some big changes to prepare it for the English language release, the story is being totally re-written and the game is being re-balanced. The Russian version has been described as being very hardcore orientated, this is being changed to make the game easier for new players.”
As you can imagine, this left me scared and pissed as hell. I still don’t know what to think, I don’t want a dumbed-down game, that’s for consoletards, not PC players >:(
03/02/2009 at 22:04 Gaph says:
And so our studio was born as an artistic laboratory. We decided to set a few experiments — test some ideas, confirm some assumptions and find the artistic tools, unique for the computer game form. Not ones borrowed from the filmmaking industry, painting or literature — but ones based on the uniqueness of playing a game, specific to the form from the very beginning. Ones based on the player’s freedom of choice, irreversibility, non-linearity and pseudo non-linearity of the process in real time… and, of course, many others.
This is so nice to hear from a developer and it’s probably the biggest reason I see gaming mostly going downhill. Stop trying to be a movie or a book. Games these days aren’t “gamey” enough.
03/02/2009 at 22:32 Throdax says:
@Zigs
Having played the Russian version allow me to say you this.
It is probably being rewritten due to the fact that the story has a few plot holes, not the kind to leaving you wondering for yourself ala David Lynch, but the kind that come from nowhere mid game and linger there in conversation without making much sense.
Re-balance wise, well some of the battles are piss easy while others are psychoticly hard. Not that hard is a bad thing and I has much as the next man like a good challenge, but some of the battles are way above that.
I believe the rebalance is just that, making the ones easy a bit harder and the ones harder a bit easier, even perhaps adding difficulty level to choose from (the Russian has none).
Well, those are my impressions anyway.
03/02/2009 at 22:40 A-Scale says:
Three shames
1. I couldn’t buy Pathologic (had to torrent it instead)
2. The English translations were so bad that I didn’t know what to do.
3. He used a winky smiley face.
I hope to see much more good work from these guys. I love Russian games.
03/02/2009 at 23:20 Adventurous Putty says:
Game developers speaking in the language of artistic movements turn me on.
Peter Molyneaux, eat your heart out.
03/02/2009 at 23:38 Michaël Samyn says:
Hi Aleksey! ;)
04/02/2009 at 00:56 Grandstone says:
Al King: In the second comment, or the first? I’m happy to be wrong about the difference between Rococo and Baroque in the second comment, as it’s good to learn specifics about history, but I knew I was talking about both in the first comment–hence my confusion about LxR’s mistranslation. And wasn’t it grim all around in medieval Europe? Maybe with the exception of Muslim Spain…
@the LxR: Thanks for responding. It was a good interview and it was just that one thing that threw me off.
04/02/2009 at 02:16 Candid_Man says:
A long-term thinking CEO? A studio actively and genuinely trying to extract players from their comfort-zone? Talks of cultural contributions and influences rather than ‘nextgen’ posturing?
That’s Ice-Pick Lodge for us pre-Renaissance gamepaupers.
I can’t help it. After the Year of the EA, that kind of talk is morning dew on the very parched, so very arched back of an ol’ wandering PC gamer.
And of course, they just so happen to have good music taste. Damn them !
Simple English: More like this.
04/02/2009 at 02:50 Al King says:
Ah right, a joke! Sorry, I did mean your first comment, that was at around 3AM. Thing is, Rococo does incorporate elements of Baroque aethetics, hence my confusion.
I’m no cultural historian, though. I mentally associate the fixation with death with the Catholic tradition and Italian culture, whereas Russia’s got the Byzantine influence and Orthodox church etc. But, you know, that’s just vague impressions.
04/02/2009 at 02:57 Filipe says:
Great interview. I’m really looking forward to the Void especially now that I know the translation is in-house. Also, a potential remake of Pathologic? Awesome!
04/02/2009 at 02:57 Grandstone says:
Thanks for clearing that up, Al–you’re right that making a distinction between the two is kind of ridiculous, as Rococo is part of Baroque, but not necessarily the other way around. I don’t know my art history well enough.
Similarly, I’m not enough of an anthropologist to talk about death fixations.
04/02/2009 at 09:15 The LxR says:
@ All: Thanks again for all the positive feedback! And for not taking everything that’s there for word – it was good to see the small discussion about Baroque. ;)
@ Michaël Samyn: Hi! :)
@ ZIGS: Don’t worry about that – that was all the way back in December, we’ve tuned the game a lot from then, and achieved a great balance between the level of Tension we need from the player, and the difficulty not to become insane in some places, like in the Russian version. I’m hoping that we’ll have more on the changes to the Void on RPS… Time will tell. :)
@ Markoff Chaney: A big warm thank you for your in-depth reply. :)
@ grmnf: I can’t send you the patch now, but if you stick around somewhere, I won’t forget about you (maybe the forums – http://forum.ice-pick.com/ ) – I will in due time. :)
@ Helm: You’ll have to pass the bear-vodka-balalaika exam first. ;) And we couldn’t NOT mention Vangers – they were a one of a kind. I’d also add, that KD-Lab without Krank is just as good as it was before, and still making a lot of fun games. :)
@ Pags: I’m getting the feeling, hydra9 is a nauthor here, but was hiding it from me. ;)
04/02/2009 at 09:39 Dan Harris says:
I love RPS. Nowhere else do I get to discuss art history and anthropology while a few clicks away on the same site I can find shooty shooty bang bang games.
Altogether now: we’re better than Edge.
04/02/2009 at 10:08 Heliocentric says:
In KD labs news Perimeter 2 is on steam.
04/02/2009 at 14:17 Deuteronomy says:
I’m surprised they didn’t mention GSC Gameworld. The original Stalker had artistic merit hanging out of every orifice. Even though Cryostasis is on a different engine, with different artists and developers, there still seems to be an odd similarity in the graphics. Maybe a Russian art style?
04/02/2009 at 15:12 Heliocentric says:
its probably just the absence of
UNREAL 3 VASELINE TECNOLOGY
Which makes everything look wet… EVERYthing
04/02/2009 at 16:22 The LxR says:
Errr… STALKER does have good graphics and all, but it’s hardly art. If you read the book (“Roadside picnic” by the Strugatsky brothers) or the movie (“Stalker” by Tarkovskiy) you’ll understand, that STALKER isn’t all that great. It gets it’s votes because it’s definitely an AAA project with a lot of effort put into it, and alien (for the western player) designs. :)
04/02/2009 at 17:20 Adventurous Putty says:
Portal is definitely art, though.
…
..what?
04/02/2009 at 20:26 The LxR says:
Portal sure is. :)
04/02/2009 at 21:48 Jed says:
Hey, Brother None, aren’t you that lovely chap who runs NMA?
04/02/2009 at 23:10 Dominic White says:
@Jed – Yes. Yes he is. Charmingly positive fellow, isn’t he?
One thing I remember of note – a couple of russian-speaking folks I’ve talked to say that Pathologics original script is excellent, and ‘literary’ is a word they’d genuinely use to describe it. The fact that the publisher mangled the translation hurt it more than most could understand. It makes the highbrow tone of the interview make a lot of sense if you go beyond the broken russlish.
05/02/2009 at 12:15 The LxR says:
@ Dominic White: The problem with the translation and its reasons was quite obvious and expected – most games can do with an average translation, as texts are usually thematic (future/war/fantasy) and rather generic. While here the usual quality just won’t do – the original Russian was already quite sophisiticated and translating it into Enlgish wasn’t a walk in the park. Originally, there was a very good translator, who used to live in America, and he did a lot of text for the game – a large chunk of the Haruspex scenario. But then he didn’t have enough time for all that text and bailed out, so the studio had to find how to finish the other 2/3 of the texts and fast. So the publisher hired two translation agencies, which was a mistake, as the terms weren’t documented, and nobody knew the whole story. Also, perevod.ru did a crap-job on this one – the Devotress (who’s, actually, the Impostress) scenario is unplayable. That’s why we (I) did the second translation in-house – it took me one month and the help of Sam (hydra9) and his friend Luchian. Once again, if you’re reading this – thank you. :)
05/02/2009 at 13:57 Dominic White says:
@LxR – Now there’s a question I’ve been meaning to ask. Just how on earth does anyone manage to mistranslate ‘Devotress’ instead of ‘Impostress’. They’re completely different terms with wildly seperate meanings. Do they sound similiar in Russian or something? Or did the translation agency just randomly throw alphabet soup letters at a wall and saw what suck?
Any word on the retranslation progress? Any chance of us seeing a Pathologic revival before The Void hits, or is it on a back-burner until your current workload is lessened?
Thanks again for keeping us all informed here. I hope you’ve got plans for some nice informative press releases sent out to all the standard gaming blogs once The Void goes gold, as without such efforts it’ll probably remain as unknown as Pathologic, which I never would have found out about were it not for RPS.
05/02/2009 at 13:58 Dominic White says:
Stuck, even, not suck… Although either works.
Oh great gods of RPS, please return our beloved edit function! It was very, very useful!
05/02/2009 at 16:23 The LxR says:
@ Dominic White: I’m still not sure, what Devotress even means. If you know – please, explain. :) I think it was actually a decision, not a mistranslation, but I have no idea, why. The translation agency, on the other hand, did the jibberish translation, which isn’t nowhere near being gramatically right.
I think we’ll actually halt retranslation for now – it’s too much of a task for just me and a team of proofreaders – we need translators, but there aren’t any. :( And as it’s my own project I’m doing in free time – I’m afraid it means it’ll go really slow, unless we’ll actually do a remake.
As for the Void – I offered to write some stuff about the changes in the new version, but got no answer from Quinns yet.
05/02/2009 at 16:27 Throdax says:
Devotress would be someone who devotes, as in devoted to something.
At least I think that is what they had in mind.
05/02/2009 at 18:01 Dominic White says:
I guess ‘Devotress’ sounds vaguely cooler in english, but as mentioned, the meaning is almost the opposite of what the correct translation should be.
The name ‘Impostress’ immediately makes me think of someone who isn’t who they seem to be. Someone you should be suspicious of, no matter how benevolent their actions seem to be. Much like how the townsfolk react to her.
The name ‘Devotress’ strikes me as more of a faithful religious follower. A priestess or equivalent. At least, that’s what the word conjures up in my head.
I have a feeling that they just went with Devotress because it rolls off the tongue a little better, which is exactly the wrong approach you want to take when translating something like that.
05/02/2009 at 18:09 The LxR says:
Actually, then Devotress fits. The plot of Klara is about her and her twin sister. One on them is evil, the other – good. But which one? :)
Oh, and is it a real word anyway?
05/02/2009 at 21:49 Candid_Man says:
@The LxR:
Is your impromtu team responsible for the aborted attempt at translation of Pathologic on the Something Awful forums:
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2988164&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1
If not, were you aware in any way of this attempt? Seems to me that the guy was really involved in conveying the mood, and maybe he could be useful to you.
I don’t know much about the author, sadly.
05/02/2009 at 22:10 The LxR says:
I know about this, and there’s another guy who continued this – but they’re not transalating. As I undestand LP is when one plays a game and then tells the others about his experience. This has nothing to do with actual translation. :)
06/02/2009 at 00:30 Dominic White says:
That LP died a death, because Grawl had never played the game before, and had no idea what he was getting into. He only got a couple of days in before just getting horribly stuck and giving up.
Here’s the new one, by folks who know what they’re doing:
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3033830
And there’s some kind of semi-retranslation going on this time. LxR, I’m sure Brass Monkey (I’ll forward your sentiments – I post on SA as well) would be perfectly happy if you used parts of his revised script to save you a little effort.
And as for the whole Let’s Play thing, it started on SA, but seems to have infected the internet now. There’s seveal SA-independent LP forums, and a bunch of groups on youtube doing them for the youtube community. It’s weird, but it works.
06/02/2009 at 00:30 Dominic White says:
Oh, and yes – Devotress is a real word.
06/02/2009 at 00:53 hydra9 says:
Dominic: The Something Awful playthrough is awesome, and Brass Monkey has done a great job with the script revisions, IMO. He actually popped up on the Ice-Pick Lodge forums and we invited him to contribute to the re-translation project… if it ever gets going again ;)
09/02/2009 at 12:38 The Shed says:
Wow, what a totally refreshing concept. Games being to the 21st century what films were to the 20th. It already makes sense- imagine in 40 years time with realistic quality game graphics/physics, and the young kids complaining about 16-bit and low res games just like some kids today complain about black and white movies! When/if that stage comes, games as art should truly take off as well, and developers will be able to explore themes, characters, and concepts in a much more in-depth way.
Also, kudos on the choice of Silent Hill 2. I ordered it off eBay a while back, and while playing through it I realised it is in fact the most movie-like game I’d ever played. The way the story is told as you find yourself on the large dilapidated streets of the town, travelling through dank and disturbing locations, all with a perfect cinema-like desolate mood. It captures loneliness perfectly, giving you fleeting moments of company, before quickly snatching them away like all good SurvHors. Such a good call on Aleksei’s part
12/05/2009 at 15:27 Deprave says:
That was a wonderful interwiew, the Ice-Pick guys are’nt talk about their plans and thoughts about gamedev often. I’m surprised that no one mentioned Team Ico with their two masterpieces (Ico and Shadow of The Colossus), but I’m glad that there are people, that still remember the Thief and other games of “Golden Age of game-dev”. Anyway, I wish IPL good luck and unstopably growing inspiration, expirience and funds, to do their artist’s duty on!
27/05/2009 at 04:54 The LxR says:
@ Deprave: When you do an interview you’re bound to forget someone — indeed Shadow Of Colossus is one of our teams favourite games and definitely a milestone in interactive storytelling.
01/02/2010 at 18:01 Henrik says:
It always seemed to me that The Void drew from the Silent Hill 2 treatment of atmosphere and psychology. I found there to be similarities also in aesthetics. For example the brothers share the same shadow self-styled appearance with the subconsciously lurking imagery of the Silent Hill monsters and surroundings (the two of which can be hard to tell apart at times). It led me to believe that Team Silent probably made an impact; a notion you strengthened.
I do not think that it necessarily is an intentional decision, however, I often find that progressive peers within art, in all its forms, have a lot in common with each other. Especially the kind that explores darker aspects of what it means to be alive, to be human and to have a mind. This is true of music, as Akira Yamaoka (the sound producer of Silent Hill), has proven, as well as movies, games and literature. It trancends genre, and it trancends medium. Sometimes I feel as though it could transcend existence too.
Thank you for this profound game. It has given me so much.