By Jim Rossignol on March 14th, 2009 at 10:33 am.
We’ve begun exploring the unknown systems of wormhole space in Eve Online. I had my first encounter with the freaky Sleeper alien ships last night. I then returned to normal space slightly richer, and slightly wiser. The wormhole – an unstable, temporary gate to an uncharted region – was still open when I logged out of Eve, and so I let my corporation chums know it was there. About an hour later one of them IM’d me: “We’re trapped. The wormhole closed behind us.” His account of the event is posted below.
A Brief Wormhole Adventure, by Roburky:
This wasn’t meant to be much of an adventure, but it turned into one. Jim told me that there was a wormhole in T22, just one jump from our base, so I logged on to check it out. One of our corp members who had already been in gave me the bookmark, and then I scouted him out of Syndicate so he could sell his billions of isk-worth of Sleeper loot in empire.
There didn’t seem to be a friendly alliance gang in the wormhole, and there were no other corporation members about, so I thought I’d just send my alt-character through and practice some probing. The wormhole said it had plenty of mass left, but was nearing the end of its natural life. I spent a while considering whther I should go through, and if I did go through, whether I should go back and get a cheap frigate or something, in case I got trapped. I decided to go for it, with the Arazu – an expensive recon ship.
I discovered there were a bajillion exploration sites in there to be found. The first one I found was a mining site. The second one I found was a mining site, but with five Sleeper frigates at it. I thought about it. Can I kill 5 frigates solo? What if there’s another wave, though? I should play it safe. I should get some backup.
I called Neil in over Steam from his Total War game. I fitted out a drake, and he got his Sleipnir (a combat-focused command ship). We both fitted a salvager module, and went in. The frigates died easily, and there was no extra waves. We were scooping up the loot when Spiffeh, a corpmate, told me to read alliance chat. Someone was asking if anyone had gone through the wormhole recently. Because it had just collapsed.
We were trapped. The only way out was gone. We’d have to trust the dev’s word that there would always be another wormhole somewhere in system. And we’d have to hope it wouldn’t take us to some far-off, dangerously hostile region, such as Period Basis or Branch, or worse: another wormhole system. The best we could hope for was somewhere safe in empire. Whatever happened, we knew it was going to take a long time to get home.
We spoke into the dark local chat channel – which is blank by default in wormhole space – and got two replies. Another Huzzahian, and some random blue (allied) guy. We got them into our fleet. Random blue guy and my alt were the only ones with probes. So we got to work looking for another wormhole, while the others amused themselves with shooting each other in one of the exploration asteroid belts. Spiffeh offered moral support over Ventrilo.
Huzzahian soon had to leave. We tried to figure out a way we could get the bookmark for the new wormhole location to him if we found one. We eventually decided he would leave himself logged on, and if we found anything we would gang warp him to it. Random friendly Guy with the other probe launcher logged off a while after. Neil left for food after that. I was left on my own.
I was feeling horribly guilty by this point. I had dragged Neil in here in his expensive ship without even remembering myself that the wormhole timer was running out, let alone warning Neil. I was feeling the weight of the responsibility of being the only prober that other people were relying on, and getting increasingly frustrated and depressed at my ineptitude at the task.
There were so many cosmic signature readings wherever I moved my probes. If I scanned with several probes, I got a forest of little red dots. Tracking any one signature seemed impossible. I’d think I was following one reading down to a smaller scale, then somewhere I’d get misdirected back onto the trail of a site I’d already found. I spent hours on it, gradually improving my methods as I figured out how it all worked. I started systematically working through the possible signatures, warping to them and bookmarking them. Mining site after mining site. But each one I found made the map of little red dots a little easier to navigate.
Neil came back after his tea, and I fleet warped him to some of the mining sites I’d found with sleepers in them, so he could kill and loot them to keep busy. When the entertainment was gone, he logged off to play some more Empire. I carried on probing.
After three or four hours of this, something turned up on the scan results with a type that wasn’t gravimetric. It wasn’t going to be a mining site. It was ‘unknown’. “Are wormholes ‘unknown’?” I asked in corp chat. Nobody knew. I probed harder.
It was a wormhole. A sweet, sweet, unstable wormhole. Through it, I could see a system that was blue and black, with a cream coloured tube of cloud running through it. It was familiar to me. This was somewhere in Known Space, I was sure of it. I felt a sense of accomplishment greater than any I’ve felt in Eve to this date. I called Neil back in to the game. He went to fetch the AFK Huzzahian, and fleet warped his hawk over to the wormhole. I logged on my main again. We all gathered at the edge of the wormhole for a moment, and took some celebratory screenshots. “Who’s going to go first?” I said.
I went in. And I laughed. It was only 5 jumps from home.
14/03/2009 at 10:43 Morberis says:
Great fun eh!
I’ve had similar experiences having a wormhole close on us and finally getting after traveling several W hole systems 4 jumps over from where we started.
Though in our case it was caused by chasing a Rorqual out, which then overloaded the WH closing it.
I didn’t seem to have the difficulties probing out a site WH the author did though – there were only 5 grav/ladar sites and I found it relatively easy to exclude them in each system we jumped through.
One thing that is great fun, raiding through lowsec-lowsec wormholes. You can warp in and lay devastation upon everything without fear of retaliation and you have a built in escape hatch for when you start getting chased.
14/03/2009 at 11:15 Stupoider says:
Wow. That was a great read, the idea of wormholes in EVE makes me want to try it out!
14/03/2009 at 11:17 Alex Hopkinson says:
Haha, excellent Rob. :)
14/03/2009 at 11:21 Heliocentric says:
That is awesome. That might get me into eve, just imagining a team building up a base in one of these.
14/03/2009 at 11:24 Helm says:
This game seems amazing when I read about it, but I doubt I could play it myself.
14/03/2009 at 11:24 Wallace says:
All these “lost in space” stories are awesome. My corp went out on patch day and got stuck after an exiting fleet collapsed the wormhole. I had to scan down three seperate wormholes to get everyone back, thanks to the battleships in our gang that kept breaking the mass limits, and the last of us to escape ended up about thirty jumps from home.
14/03/2009 at 11:27 Xercies says:
Hmm this makes me want to go back to EVE, I really liked the game.
14/03/2009 at 11:30 anonymous17 says:
Great story.
; but
Does this not make EVE even more inaccessible to newcomers? New players – although semi-protected from older advanced players, with better ships, because they are off hunting through wormholes – are left with an even greater learning curve. All players that want to get somewhere in the game will reach the wormhole stage – a stage that seems impervious to recon in that although you can enter, the exit is not stable – leaving the player at the whim of the game as to how long they play. The risk of having to abandon an avatar or expensive ship it could be argued is an incentive, similar to player death, but to me the mechanics of the game are limiting the players rather than freeing them to enjoy the game. To play properly would require you to realise that every time you sit down to play that you could end up stuck in a system, on the far side of the multiverse, unable to find the exit.
Work your way up through EVE starting with no skills, only to reach a stage that then leaves you in the dark as to how long you could be playing. I guess it is possible to argue that this is just the same as WoW in that you could find yourself needing to log off, however “you are distant from a resting place and your temporary companion ‘DETHTOALLHUMANS’ seems to foam at the mouth every time you suggest turning back to the nearest save location”.
At least in WoW you could still technically back track or keep going forward until you reach a save location. My point is that there simply seems no way in EVE to anticipate whether you will even reach a save location.
Is this feeling of the possibility of pre-unquantifiable time in EVE appealing to players? I understand that perhaps some players would want this experience in their games but as an incentive for new players, I consider it a bit of a misnomer. Should worm holes even be something that new players can expect to benefit from?
I think I will continue to respect the spreadsheet staring players of EVE, while avoiding the game itself.
14/03/2009 at 11:33 Cypher says:
Had a go at this last night, and it kept me up into the small hours, just learning and using the new scanning system and finding wormholes. It was a breath of fresh air for my Eve-life, I think I may even just spend my time forever ‘lost in space’.
14/03/2009 at 11:44 Daniel says:
Accounts like this make me want to pick up an EVE account and start playing. Then I actually load up the game and realise I am a tiny, insignificant little shuttle without anything interesting to do.
They really need to work on their newbie circuit.
14/03/2009 at 12:17 Ben Abraham says:
Wow. What an adventure!!!
14/03/2009 at 12:27 El_MUERkO says:
We found a wormhole in high sec, got all excited and tooled up to go in … it was just a shortcut wormhole that moved us 4 jumps across the region :(
14/03/2009 at 12:29 Mil says:
So it looks like you guys are in Huzzah Federation? Which corporation?
14/03/2009 at 12:29 Chaz says:
@ Daniel
Yeah I agree, all these exciting accounts of the game sound great until you start playing it for the first time, and then you realise that to get to that stage will take you months of work and countless hours of tedium. EVE is just about the most utterly unforgiving hardcore MMO I have ever come across.
14/03/2009 at 12:58 El_MUERkO says:
the new player experience is much improved and gives you a better idea of what you need to do right from the start, also if you read some of the skill points guides and new character guides available on the forums and plan out a character with a PvP goal (pew pew fun) and a PvE goal (money making) and you can be making cash and getting kill mails by the end of the month, especially with the flood of newbies out there now
14/03/2009 at 13:09 Ian says:
I still love reading about EVE despite knowing I wouldn’t like playing it.
14/03/2009 at 13:12 mandrill says:
@ Anonymous17: They have done alot of work on the new player experience in EVE for this expansion, though not having been through it myself and having been playing for 5 years I’m not sure how much of an improvement it is. That being said New players should be able to find a decent crew of people to go wormholing with without too much bother. Also there are player run corps and alliances which specialise in helping out new players by filling in the gaps in knowledge and experience left by the tutorials. Random Players are generally quite helpful too, I try and answer any questions that come up in the chat of the NPC corp that I’m in.
The thing about EVE is that it is a community in a way that no other MMO is. help is there you generally just have to ask, and whilst there are those who will take the mick out of new players they are few in number in my experience. There are also alot of guides and tutorials available online.
14/03/2009 at 13:47 Cooper says:
When I played Eve, there was quite a good support network for new players. The Eve University corp was quite good at the time I remember. I keep promising myself that I will, eventually, go back to eve. (Once I have a network that can maintain a stable ping for more than 20 mins) accounts like this always bring that itch right back…
14/03/2009 at 13:51 anonymous17 says:
@mandrill
Defending my previous post, I would argue that whilst it is possible to learn EVE, with or without other player help, this simply doesn’t remove the fact that EVE is a difficult game to learn, play and ultimately enjoy.
I think a game without a decent community, suffers, regardless of target audience, type of game, theme of game or owning company profits. However to say there are tutorials and players out there to help newbies is like Linux users telling Windows guests to learn linux because ‘it’ too, is easy – with the necessary information.
My post does is not intended to castigate the (complex) nature of EVE, nor the immense effort of the community placed at attracting new players. EVE is a game targeted at players looking for a different experience. It would be foolish for existing players to try and have a game that doesn’t grow in size. Nor that wormhole-ing is something that is restricted to high level players. My concern is that, ultimately, you are eventually forced to go through a worm hole and that once you are at this stage, you have little control over how long your then ‘attached’ to your computer.
Perhaps my point is a little specific, or that it questions the function of a game for players. Additionally I accept that perhaps, as someone that has tried EVE but not continued with it I am looking at a point in the game that is theoretically several months away from the start of play.
I continue to support my first my post, wormhole-ing, although fascinating in terms of new arenas and situations for the player, is ill-thought out as a mechanic, as it restricts player freedom – and that this will prevent new players from joining the game.
14/03/2009 at 13:58 LukeE says:
I’ve been going out in 2 stages – one tooled up in my covert ops exploration ship, and a second with a gang of friends in cheap t1 cruisers to engage the sleepers.
With the covert ops, the new probing system actually makes finding anything ridiculously easy. A set of 4 deep space probes is all I need, and even set at 4 or 8 AU ranges, I’ve normally got at least a type id on any sites I find, if not a name. Having run around and bookmarked anything of interest – other wormholes, hacking/archaeology sites, a few belts – I call in the cavalry.
In the last engagement I was in, our gang of 3 cruisers was reduced to 2 in the middle of running a lowsec intermediate sleeper archaeology site (guy logged). And we resorted to warping in and out finishing off one cruiser at a time, from the gang of 8 that had engaged us. Whilst repping up at a planet we were set upon by a battlecruiser pilot – with us in completely inappropriately setup ships, designed to take on the sleepers, not other people (and regardless what the devs say, the two are not the same). And despite losing both our ships to the pirate, we gave him a good run for his money, dropping him into almost structure before we both went down.
Now my friend is reasonably new to the game, hence why I’ve been “enforcing” a t1 cruiser gang composition, and he hasn’t done much in the way of anything except missions. In his words – “That was the first time I’ve engaged in pvp where I didn’t feel like I was just being picked on; when are we going in again?”
Me and my friend spent the next hour talking in excited tones about when our next expedition was going to occur, and what we’d do differently. It’s gonna be a good week beyond the wormhole.
14/03/2009 at 14:02 Mysteriesofkabir says:
After playing through the tutorials and starting to hang out on the forums, I’ve discovered that the community gossip is actually more fun than the game itself. This sounds fun, with emphasis on ‘sounds’.
14/03/2009 at 14:23 Sleeper says:
@anonymous17
I think perhaps you’re not looking at wormholes within the scope of Eve in it’s entirety. Wormholes are just another challenge in the universe that is entirely optional for those who are bold enough, you’re not ‘forced’ to go that way by any measure. With teamwork and applied grey matter even releatively young players can attempt to find and enter wormholes. But like everything else in Eve, there is a high element of risk inolved but of course the rewards are potentially high.
I’d dispute the notion that you are ‘tied’ to your PC with wormholes, yes I agree, you can indeed be lost for sometime. But the nature of the systems (delayed local chat etc.) means it is relatively easier to logoff and come back to it. If you’re in a group, well, arrangements have to be made of course, like in every other mmo. Eve is no different.
But the potential for committed time is no different to any other type of fleet operation, especially when things go bad.
Personally, in what nearly 6 years of playing this game now, this is one of the better addons I’ve seen. It most certainly isn’t ill thought out. The Eve community can be pretty demanding and so far as I’ve seen, there have been very few complaints.
Eve is a behemoth, and I’ve had countless discussions with non-players about certain aspects of it, but you’ll never really ‘get it’ unless you invest some serious time in playing it.
14/03/2009 at 14:29 Jesse McLaughlin says:
@Anonymous17
You can exit the game at any time, and as long as you’re not flagged for PvP, you’ll warp out and disappear from the system (which takes 30-60 seconds). When you come back, you’ll be right where you left off. While not a save point, it by no means ties you to the computer.
14/03/2009 at 14:41 Rei Onryou says:
Great read. Shame EVE didn’t do it for me. Sounds like such a great place to be.
14/03/2009 at 15:00 Jim Rossignol says:
Re inaccessibility: It’s one of Eve’s most important features. I actually think Eve is getting to be over-subscribed anyway. If it takes on too many new players the galaxy will be filled beyond breaking point.
14/03/2009 at 15:19 Mil says:
By “breaking point”, do you mean that of the server capacity or of the game mechanics?
14/03/2009 at 15:22 Jim Rossignol says:
Both.
14/03/2009 at 16:16 np (spiffeh) says:
Great write up roB. Congrats on finding your way out and really glad you got out in one piece!
14/03/2009 at 16:26 MeestaNob! says:
This game sounds bloody brilliant.
14/03/2009 at 16:35 MeestaNob! says:
Question re wormholes: Is it possible to have a Star Trek Voyager style adventure where you go through a wormhole then just ‘pick a direction’ and travel about, or is it standard MMO stuff where you have no choice but to mine/fight/blah?
I think what I’m also asking is can you go to planets? Can you land on them and search for valuable trinkets and tech?
Are there adventures (ie stories set within the confines of some sort of mission structure), or do you make your own fun?
I have so many questions actually, I don’t even know where to begin.
14/03/2009 at 16:47 jalf says:
Jim: How come? Server capacity is a real concern, of course, but so far, CCP seems to be keeping up. I haven’t played the game for some months now, but last I checked, it was more responsive than ever, pretty much.
But I don’t really see why game mechanics would become a problem with more subscribers. There’s plenty of room in 0.0 space, and it can be easily expanded. They could expand empire space too, if necessary (just say that the empires are expanding and conquering the nearest 0.0 systems.)
@MeestaNob: Nope, you can’t visit planets. It’s spaceflight only. Also your warp drive only lets you jump to points of interest, like asteroid belts or space stations (of which there are only a finite number). You could in principle fly freely if you liked, but you’d be limited to the ~1km/s speed of normal flight, so it’d take you ages to get anywhere. ;)
14/03/2009 at 17:09 Larington says:
I know they want to put landable, colonisable planets in, just haven’t gotten that far yet. Amongst other design challenges, they’ve got to decide how they’d go about allowing players to make landside bases and such, not to mention the possibility of having to create landable planets in 0.0 space, which would probably be an implementational nightmare purely from a content generation perspective.
14/03/2009 at 18:22 dadioflex says:
Interesting read. This http://www.roburky.co.uk/?p=10 helped me understand why I hated Far Cry 2. I would never have picked up on that on my own but once it’s out there it all becomes obvious. Is this guy a journalist? His writing is awesome. Whatever he does, I hope he posts a little more frequently in future.
I have two Eve accounts. So I’m only an amateur.
14/03/2009 at 18:28 Philip says:
I can see what you mean by inaccessible, to a point.
The new improvements that come with Apocrypha are amazing, and are really designed to help out new characters.
Especially with the re-roll available once a year, helps if you screw up your character.
As for newcomers, check out Eve University. We’re in a war at the moment, so we can’t take applications, but please come to “EVE University” channel anyway and after the war we can sign you up. :)
14/03/2009 at 18:30 Mike says:
Very nice little story. Sounds like this is really adding something to EVE. I assume you can set up stations out there?
14/03/2009 at 18:53 Vanderdecken says:
Wow… just wow. I want to have enough money and a credit card and no job so I can play EVE all the time. I’ve been on 2 free trials so far and loved it, but this brings a new dimension. The only thing that puts me off is that it seems so hard to get into a corporation, to get well known with friends, connections and camaraderie needed for this kind of thing.
14/03/2009 at 18:57 Jim Rossignol says:
Setting up a station in wormhole space is a logistical impossibility (it seems) due to the unstable nature of the entrance. That doesn’t mean people won’t try it.
14/03/2009 at 19:23 Cypher says:
Tower up already;
http://tinyurl.com/bfa6hf
I’ve just been exploring in covops, learning the scanning ropes really. Found lots of ‘good stuff’, so think I’m going to just meander through endless wormholes in a decent ship preying on hapless explorers.
My alliance seems bent on shoving endless huge ships through every wh it finds. With the inevitable loss of the wh and ensuing chaos, I think it’s better to have a smaller fleet with a more carefully considered make-up of ships.
If anything this is the excuse I’ve neded to get out of all that alliance claptrap and go alone or with a couple of old friends.
14/03/2009 at 21:00 Rob says:
I love EVE stories, they’ve compelled me to a resolution to subscribe once I have sufficient free time. Keep up the posts Jim, they’re always enjoyable reads.
14/03/2009 at 21:12 Daniel says:
Pah, I will register an account when I get my monsterous PC back up and runnning, and play EVE and DM NWN similtaniously to take an edge off the boredom.
How hard can it be?
14/03/2009 at 21:31 cncplyr says:
Makes me wish I could still afford to play EVE…
14/03/2009 at 22:48 marks says:
hahahha, this is the wormhole I found in 1-N lmao. I found a blue hawk AFK by the wormhole, with a velator trying to kill him. I permajammed the velator with the single T2 multispec I had fitted on my covert ops ship until he warped away hahahahaha. Awesome.
14/03/2009 at 23:15 Melf_Himself says:
““Are wormholes ‘unknown’?” I asked in corp chat. Nobody knew.”
Lol.
14/03/2009 at 23:49 dalig varg says:
best plan is to drop a warp bubble near the wormhole and kill anyone who goes near it
15/03/2009 at 00:26 Kaltano says:
I find it amusing to learn that Jim’s alliance is set -10 by my alliance….
15/03/2009 at 00:30 Kelron says:
Wormholes and the new probing system have managed to do what CCP failed to do previously with the introduction of “exploration”. There’s now a real sense of exploration and adventure to the game. It’s really revitalised my interest in playing – I’ve never stopped enjoying it in the 3+ years I’ve played, but I’d gone past the stage where I’d stay up all night playing. This expansion has fucked up my sleep patterns, but i’m having too much fun to care.
15/03/2009 at 00:59 Laukei says:
I love Eve so much… It’s just such a time-consuming game. I can’t play *and* exist as a functional human at the same time. And being in the third year of a degree, functional human takes precedence.
15/03/2009 at 03:27 LukeE says:
“Setting up a station in wormhole space is a logistical impossibility (it seems) due to the unstable nature of the entrance. That doesn’t mean people won’t try it.”
Not at all… it only needs an alt with minimal scanning skills permanently left in the system to find an exit wormhole (and a great deal of patience, with such rubbishy skills) – and from then you can refuel the pos at any time, assuming you can get to the new entrance with your industrials – and if not, you’re only ever 24h away from a new wormhole. With only a minimal of planning it should be more than feasible.
15/03/2009 at 04:59 elffas says:
Does this not make EVE even more inaccessible to newcomers?
No, it doesn’t make EVE more inaccessible to newcomers. You don’t seem to understand the mechanics of the game.
All players that want to get somewhere in the game will reach the wormhole stage – a stage that seems impervious to recon in that although you can enter, the exit is not stable – leaving the player at the whim of the game as to how long they play.
Wormhole…………. stage…?
Wormholes are optional. No one forces you to go through. They are not a “stage” of the game, nor can the player even access them without going out of their way to acquire the ship components needed to do so, and then figuring out how to use them. And at that point, there the tutorials to warn you of the dangers of entering a wormhole.
As to the game dictating that you keep playing, you can log off at any time in space, and disappear quickly, as long as you haven’t fired on anyone. If you get shot, and escape, you can log off fine.
The risk of having to abandon an avatar or expensive ship it could be argued is an incentive, similar to player death, but to me the mechanics of the game are limiting the players rather than freeing them to enjoy the game.
You can enter the wormhole on your own terms with nothing but cheap equipment and ships, and risk almost nothing. What’s more is that you CAN get out of wormhole space instantly by self destructing. You’ll appear wherever your clone is stationed, and be set back a small amount of ISK to buy a new clone. Actually, new players won’t have to pay any ISK for a new clone because Alpha clones are free, and will hold up to 900K skillpoints.
15/03/2009 at 09:09 Bas says:
Jim Rossignol: if they have so many subscribers, what’s stopping them from buying golden, diamond-encrusted servers that can handle more people?
15/03/2009 at 09:33 Arnulf says:
@Bas:
Buying more servers does not solve the problem. If you have more computer nodes, they in turn need to increase the communication bandwidth between these nodes. That’s harder than it sounds.
Also there are things that simply cannot be made faster just by throwing more computer power at it. For a more in-depth example take a look at Amdahl’s law.
15/03/2009 at 09:46 Jim Rossignol says:
@ Bas: they already did that, the current servers can cope with 200-300% what they used to. The architecture of the game is not the same as other MMOs, however. It’s a single galaxy, which means it can actually “fill up”.
Re stations inside wormhole systems: Yes, maybe they will prove to be practicable, especially in hi-sec systems, but it’ll take some extreme dedication. People are already trying it, and Eve players are nothing if not dedicated. So I guess we’ll see.
15/03/2009 at 11:14 Acosta says:
I have my own experience with wormholes.
Random guy in militia forms a small fleet to explore a wormhole, so I go it with the only ship I can afford right now (a frigate, my character is one month old after all). We go in, only to be welcomed by a bunch of pirate players who destroy us, I only have time to warp with my capsule to a planetary corpse with other guy.
Problem, we are both in capsules, we have no way to search where the wormhole was located in that space, we can do nothing and attempts of convincing the pirates in local to give us the location and let our capsules escape are answered with laughs (yes, pretty naive I know, but worth a try). So we asked one of the guys in fleet that were podded if he could came back one sec so we can warp to him and try to escape, which he very kindly does.
Sadly it has not a happy ending, as soon as we warp the pirates tacked us and destroyed our capsules, so I lost the expensive augmentations I had (fortunately, my clone was updated). The good news is that I have another happier wormhole story, where I come as part of a fleet that defeat some sleeper guardians (the random shoot AI is pretty nasty, all my shields were one shooted a few of times, luckily I could escape).
I’m in love with the game and for being a newbie I think I’m having lots of nice experiences.
15/03/2009 at 11:24 TooNu says:
You went in with a HAC the first time around? I can’t see you soloing these sleepers in anything smaller.
We went in with some BS’s and got a few of those Argus (Argos?) sleepers. Pretty odd loot but totally overpriced in Jita right now.
Another question. What T3 are you going for first? THe Legion looks really pretty as does the Tengu which is odd for a Caldari ship so I will settle for that.
15/03/2009 at 11:46 anonymous17 says:
@Jesse McLaighin & elffas
Wormwhole ‘stage’; the notion that should an advanced player wish to continue to move up the ‘level ladder’, they need the technology and wealth from the wormhole sector.
I could attempt to sail across the Atlantic in a badly made coracle if I wanted to, just because I could does not mean I will. It sounds like venturing into wormhole space without decent equipment would be pointless, even if you did happen upon something decent – the whole reason for going there – how would you get it back?
No one forces you to play the game, nor even to venture to into WHS. My post questions whether the mechanics of the add-on restrict player freedom as the game and community (pvp) forces you into a bottleneck as you compete to be a player with power/impact/charisma. Venturing into WHS is not an unknown risk, same as normal space, you could loose your ship, pay the fines, get respawned. Even ‘saving’ is the same. However in normal space you would try to not save in the middle of an enemy or pirate sector, so that when you load up your not stranded, by yourself, in the middle of no-where without friends, or worse instantly destroyed by enemies in the area.
@Jim
“Re inaccessibility: It’s one of Eve’s most important features.”
Jim, could you explain – sure any game wants to attract new players, but do you mean important ‘outstanding’ features or important currently in game, or is ‘important’ in that the developers place emphasis in the game for new players. You also said that EVE could become oversubscribed – is not WHS designed to alleviate this problem whilst maintaining the storyline?
Perhaps I should clear up that EVE, as a game, appeals to me. A community game, heavy in game technology and scope for development. Player controlled empires and economies, but I think EVE’s failing is considering and applying mechanics that restrict players. Many of the ideas in game reflect the philosophies of ‘leveling and grind’, openly or covertly. For example, a new player needs time to adjust get some skills and orientate himself in the universe, whether they use a guide or not – but the whole game stills seems massively bewildering rather than encouraging players to pursue a path that will be rewarding. By playing the game you take the chance that it may not ‘be’ a game for you because you are constantly fending of or being wary of players that ‘do’ go through wormholes, that ‘do’ build massive corporations with the sole intention of gaining ISK to get more ISK to get bigger cruisers to get more ISK……
In this sense, EVE seems a little too similar to many parts of the world (Earth world), people’s fun spoiled by those who have forgotten the reason why they started to play.
15/03/2009 at 12:10 Mil says:
@Jim: I’m fascinated by EVE in many respects (which currently don’t include — maybe oddly — the actual individual user’s gameplay). One of the things that interest me is the game server architecture. And this is the first time I read a suggestion that it might not be scalable or that the galaxy might “fill up” as you say. It would be great if you could provide or link to some more information about that.
15/03/2009 at 12:33 Janek says:
Mil: I think it’s more about the availability “habitable” space, particularly in 0.0. Due to the nature of alliance politics these days, and the ability of large alliances to project power over large distances (thanks to the logistical abilities of capital ships, jump portals, jumpclones and the like), a sizable proportion of nullsec space is in the hands of just a few powerblocs.
Even though much of this space is empty, the fact that it is within the sphere of influence of the big boys makes it very difficult to actually “live” there – sooner or later, any infrastructure you try to erect will be kicked over. The only real way to get established in the almost-empty regions is to join the bloc, or else create your own.
This means that, say, small alliances wanting to carve their own little niche are pretty much limited to regions where there are NPC stations, of which there are only a limited number, unchanged from the early days of the game – and they’re becoming increasingly crowded.
I’m simplifying somewhat, and there are exceptions, but it boils down to the (ever-increasing) “independent” 0.0 population being stuck in just a few regions, while powerful alliances are able to control vast tracts of empty space.
15/03/2009 at 12:35 Jim Rossignol says:
Mil: it’s a static universe. There’s a limited number of systems, astroid belts, and so on. The Wormhole thing is directly linked to this: it provides more space, and takes people out of “real” space. Eve is scaleable in the sense that they could add bits on, as they have done with the wormholes, and the drone regions before that, but there’s nevertheless finite about of “space”.
Also see Janek’s reply above.
But it’s larger than that: some areas are actually over-subscribed, because they attract so many players. the key example of it “filling up” is the ongoing problems with core trade hub Jita, which regularly hosts over 1000 people at any one time. The system has been know as a kind of black hole of lag for years, and much of CCP’s server development has been intended to support that system.
The same is true for fleet battles: where 100 vs 100 was a once a big battle, now 400 vs 400 is possible, and fairly routine.
15/03/2009 at 13:24 ShardPhoenix says:
If necessary, couldn’t they add another whole previously-unexplored galaxy to the universe, or something?
15/03/2009 at 13:50 lumpi says:
Great game. I wish I had the patience for MMORPGs…
15/03/2009 at 17:13 Janek says:
Shard: Yeah. In fact they’ve already added space several times – first with the drone regions, then with lowsec Black Rise for faction warfare, now with wormhole space.
Thing is, it doesn’t solve the core problem of overcrowded NPC regions (which since we live there is all I care about ¬_¬) – drone regions got gobbled up quickly, Black Rise isn’t 0.0, and living in W-space is impractical.
But you’re right, chucking in another two or three 0.0 regions with NPC stations would reduce the problem, if only temporarily.
15/03/2009 at 20:34 Mil says:
Re 0.0. space, I remember having read a recent interview with an EVE developer (or maybe a blog post), which said more or less that at the moment 0.0 alliances feel compelled by the game mechanics to hold on to as much space as possible, but that CCP are planning to address that next.
Re Jita: yeah, I can see how that could be a problem, but CCP could just give everyone the ability to trade with the closest 2-3 systems (at the moment I understand you have to train a skill to be able to do this) so there’s no reason for all that people to be concentrated in a single system.
15/03/2009 at 23:48 paddytehpyro says:
Pah to Jita. Dodixie is sheer horror atm. Its one of (if not the) main trade hub of Gallente space. After the Apoc it seems to be capped at about 200 people. This is no where near enough in the evening where the server actually disconnected me (and quite a few other people) then when we logged back in asked us to move to an adjacent system :/. Even now I have ships left in there that I cannot reach. And about a dozen buy orders not being filled :)
Overall though its a little thing really. I’ve been happy cruising about in my covert-ops scanning down WHs for my corp to exploit.
15/03/2009 at 23:58 nabeel says:
Good stuff, Roburky, nice read.
16/03/2009 at 08:58 Daedren says:
Nice writeup. Made me go reactivate my EVE trial account. I want to like this game, I really do!
If anyone has any advice on a good noob friendly corp (or maybe a RPS one?) or would mind answering a few questions, drop me a line. (daniel@r1ft.com)
16/03/2009 at 19:35 Mil says:
Re newb-friendly corps, EVE University seems to be very highly recommended by many people. You should be able to contact them in-game.
02/04/2009 at 11:20 Fergie says:
To the many that are unsure how a new player can get along in EVE….it is a huge misconception, even by many that play EVE. That low SP players are weak and useless… i found this out when our corp joined a more PvP alliance…. our corp is mostly miners and PvE mission runners….
I was very surprised to find out that even thou I had an extra million or two skillpoints and could fly bigger ships they had vast more PvP experience and could wipe my battleship with there smaller PvP fit ships with ease.
If you start EVE, find a corp….they will help you out and bring you to exactly where you want to go if you are willing to put in the time and effort EVE is a great game.
02/04/2009 at 11:24 Fergie says:
“The same is true for fleet battles: where 100 vs 100 was a once a big battle, now 400 vs 400 is possible, and fairly routine.”
This is very true and an issue of lag, the last major battle to be talked about had over 600 ships destroyed.
03/04/2009 at 21:05 schmunkel98 says:
To add to what Fergie said on the new player experience:
I had been playing WoW(flamesuit activated) for a while and craved a SCI-FI MMO. EVE looked like a great fit. The offline skill system appears great until you realize the amount of time it will take you to actually be able to do anything effectively. This can be months away or even years depending on your goal. Yes, you can go out there and PvP in a frigate with relatively low skillpoints, but you are going to be extremely easy pickings. About the only thing you can do in EVE from the start effectively is mining and mission running. These are incredibly boring with the exception of the more advanced missions that require much larger ships and friends to be able to do.
I played EVE for roughly 8 months. I even made my way out into 0.0 with a good corp to experience “real pvp”. This consisted of two things. The first was large fleet battles that were nothing more than focus firing one target after another with very little tactics until one side won. The other was small PvP that consisted mainly of either camping out at a gate for hours with the hopes of seeing anyone or getting ganked when traveling back from empire space. Even if you did find someone while camping, you had to spend a significant amount of time actually hunting them down.
I, like many here, really wanted to like this game. However, there are just too obstacles to have to overcome. I’m praying someone else can make a game with the good points of EVE without the pitfalls.
25/04/2009 at 03:14 ucnt says:
Thats not that bad — how bout this one…
So I found a WH in the same system I had a pos at, I spent 3 hours going in and out in small ships running anomolies in the system taking out some sleeper loot.
Leaving my scanner ship at my pos, i went in one last time finished an anomoly, and fly back to the wormhole to get my salvager ship — and what do I see on overview?
NOTHING
yep you guess it, stuck all alone in a WH with no probes to find my way out..
Now thats a bitch ;)
25/04/2009 at 03:48 psyk says:
“I can’t see you soloing these sleepers in anything smaller.” was soloing sleepers in a wolf but then the wh went pop and I had to self destruct my ship and pod was a happy day.
16/05/2009 at 05:30 silverx10 says:
Agreed, EVE has a painfully steep learning curve. I’ve been playing for three days now, and still have essentially no idea what’s going on. Each item has almost an infinite number of attributes which only adds to the confusion, and the time it takes to actually learn new skills is ridiculous.
Though it does give you a reason to stop playing every now and again. After all, if you have to wait for a few hours to learn the requisite skill to pilot a cruiser, what else are you gonna do? Mine? Yeah, okay.
In closing, I’d say that the game definitely holds promise, but the difficulty factor is keeping me wary about its survivability: at least in my life.
Through all three games I’ve played, I’d say the difficulty flows as such (in order of most difficult to easiest):
EVE Online > EverQuest 2 > World of Warcraft
But I agree with other posters: reading posts like this makes me want to perservere and see how far I can make it.
21/05/2009 at 03:48 Zephyr says:
Wormholes are amazingly good fun.
I’ve been playing the game under a month and my corp and I are capable of hauling in loots totalling 200,000,000+ from certain sleeper sites.
Join an established wormholing corp and get a BC with decent shield resists.
26/05/2009 at 13:41 Deerhoof says:
A few points after reading this entire comments thread.
My corp has been living in a single wormhole system for a couple of months now. It is a Class 5 with a Pulsar Anomaly.
We have a member who is barely 3 months into the game, and is already a very active and useful member of the team.
Living out of a large POS, and relying on your fellow corpmates for things like, scanning out new entrances/exits to empire (to allow members who have left the wormhole for shopping or industrial reasons, OR if they’ve been podded), for running Class 5 Mag/Radar plex in a team of BS, harvesting/hauling Fullerite Gas (C-320 ftw!), scanning the system each day for the new sites/wh’s, and many other things.
All these things we do as a corp, and the new members who are still learning the tricks of EVE, are getting a full experience out here. Being a low SP character doesn’t prevent you from taking advantage of wormholes, even if you can’t set up structures in one of the systems. They can be involved in the logistics, they can haul or harvest VALUABLE gas (6000 units of 320 is worth a billion ISK or more), there’s always opportunity to learn how to use the new scanning system (I love it), and overall, it teaches you how to operate as part of a team.
The PvP within wormholes is superb, and in my opinion has hailed a new era in eve combat.
The mechanics of wormholes mean several things,
1, USUALLY no capital ships, being too large to fit in most wormholes, these are very rare to find in w-space.
2, the death of blob-warfare. There’s very little chance of hopping into a wormhole to find yourself confronted by a 50 man roaming HAC gang
3, No local list, means hunting is easier, your prey will not always instantly notice you, or your combat probes, on their scanner. Similarly if you’re mining or harvesting etc, you have to be more vigilant, and keep your eyes on that scanner window looking for hostile probes.
.. and if you DO find yourself with hostile neighbours, you can rest safe in the knowledge that after downtime the next day, the wormhole will no longer lead to their system.
An experienced, high skillpoint player, will fare the same as a relatively low sp player in wh-systems.
The NPC’s are fearsome (in the higher class systems), the logistics require consideration, but the rewards are huge)
The mining/scanning/harvesting requires the most basic of specialized skills, and many different types of ships are adaptable to do these things.
As a few others on this thread have mentioned, Apocrypha has piqued my interest once again, in a game that I felt was going a little stale.
I’m planning to go on a week-long ramble through wormhole space, from WH to WH in a cov ops with a friend in a combat ship, seeing what there is to see, going where the ever-shifting tide of wormholes takes me.
If it’s note-worthy, I will report on the trip when I’m safely back in my C5.
01/04/2010 at 22:13 MMOChamp says:
@anonymous17: I’ve played WoW, stopped after getting Vglad/Fglad. EVE has so much more risk. You can’t make a mistake, die, and rez with a 10G Repair Bill or a loss of 28 Rating in case of Arena. The incredible amount of risk involved in EVE causes you to be a lot more selective about the company you keep, making it in essence a more enjoyable gaming experience. Unless you’re a sub-average gamer and keep dying, lol.
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