As Jim alluded to in the comments thread for our Demigod discussion last week, one of the many interesting issues around writing for the web instead of for print is that a verdict passed on a game doesn’t have to stay static in the event that game’s problems improve/worsen. Demigod’s a fine example – if one of us had written it up on compressed tree-matter and shoved a number at the end, that number would reflect its enormous netcode screw-ups, and would sit as a faintly damning judgement upon it for all time (of course, damnable parasite-site Metacritic means that problem still exists for a lot of web stuff too).
While releasing a game that was problem-riddled in the first place is scarcely something that should be condoned, as GPG and Stardock (I’m becoming increasingly confused as to who’s really in charge of DG now) have been frantically racing to patch the thing up over the last week, such a judgement would already have been innacurate. Especially as it appears – oh dear – piracy may have significantly exacerbated DG’s multiplayer problems….
According to one of Stardock’s ongoing status reports about Demigod, “The system works pretty well if you have a few thousand people online at once. The system works…less well if there are tens of thousands of people online at once. And if there are over 100,000 people, well, you get horrific results such as the game being incredibly unresponsive due to simple web service calls that were considered pretty benign during the beta that suddenly start to bring down firewalls and such due to the sheer massive number of calls that are being made. Sadly, most of the ~120,000 connections are not customers but via warez. About 18,000 are legitimate.”
A result, it seems of Gamestop breaking Demigod’s street date early, and the DRM-free game rapidly showing up on slew of Torrent sites. Do bear in mind that copies without a valid serial number can’t actually play online, but that doesn’t stop them trying, attempting to download patches or the game polling them. And that’s key – every copy of Demigod, legit or otherwise, phones home – apparently as an update check. If that check wasn’t in there, apparently, the servers wouldn’t have been struggling so. So while the amount of pirated copies is causing the multiplayer problems, those problems mightn’t exist if Stardock/GPG hadn’t put that check in. That is, of course, presuming you take Stardock at their word as to why Demigod’s multiplayer was so torturous at release.
In a follow-up status report, we got more details:
The issue boiled down to us having put together a multiplayer infrastructure that was designed to handle around 50,000 or so connected users. If the game took off, we would simply add more servers as the load increased.
But what happened was that we ended up with 140,000 connected users, of which about 12% were actually legitimate customers. Now, the roughly 120,000 users that weren’t running legitimate copies of the game weren’t online playing multiplayer or anything. The issue with those users was as benign as a handful of HTTP calls that did things like check for updates and general server keep alive. Pretty trivial on its own until you have 120,000 of them. Then you have what amounts to a DDOS attack on yourself.
So the day 2 update we released basically made sure legitimate customers were no longer being affected by those users. As a side note, no we can’t just eliminate the infrastructure being used up by warez users because they’re running the unprotected retail version and we can’t make a distinction between retail and pirated since there’s no copy protection. It’s not a huge deal in the long run (except to our metacritic score), it was just an unexpected challenge that made day 1 a very bad multiplayer experience.
Another interesting element in the web vs print argy-bargy is that we now get this kind of transparency from developers/publishers – immediate word on exactly what’s happening with a troubled game, which can appease fans. Of course, the relies on the publisher/developer being prepared to be open and honest, rather than the cold, closed ranks and dismissive attitudes towards fans some outfits demonstrate.
Anyway, there’s King Fact – around 12% of Demigod’s first-week players were legitimate. As always, that doesn’t mean the other 88% are lost customers, but it’s forever startling to see these kind of numbers. More important, really, is the experience the genuine customers are having – have the couple of patches since launch fixed the multiplayer problems? What say you, faithful types? After a couple of days on the road I’ve not been able to stick my head in just yet, but hopefully it means Jim’s forthcoming full Wot I Think is finally all engines go…
While clearly piracy is the flashpoint to end all flashpoints on this site, do be grown-ups and human beings as you debate this in comments.
Oh, and if you want the more personal touch, here’s Stardock’s Brad Wardell recording a video diary for IGN wherein he looks into and explains the launch problems:
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The devs didn’t just work Easter weekend. From release, to a few days ago, the devs were up till AT LEAST 3AM trying to get everything fixed; in addition to being in the Impulse chat channels getting specifics from/to us.
@Ging: Nah.. I don’t think thats feasible for one thing: What about of box versions? these people with DVD’s will lost the ability to update his game.
Yes. And?
Most of us do it. Birthdays. Weekends. Hannukah. Easter. Christmas Day. MLK day. Every day.
So wot? Send them a box of cigars for working around the clock to fix a game they flat out broke due to stupid decisions? Really?
We’re all missing the point here.
The Unclean Beast is clearly innuendo and should make the game 18+
A demo helps make the decision as to whether a game is worth one’s money. If Demigod had had a pre-release demo, or a day 1 demo, I have no doubt there would have been less pirating of it. Much less? Beats me. Frankly, demos help make the decision, but having access to the entire, uncrippled game provides a lot more information to make that decision on.
Unfortunately, it also tends to skew it towards “don’t buy”, because most of the time the main difference between using your pirated version and a legitimately purchased version is feeling better about yourself in the morning when you opt for the latter.
No one is claiming a demo -must- be released, or that people are forced into piracy by…well, any decision the publisher and developer make (save perhaps ones that render purchase impossible, or the occasional completely broken DRM software). But I know I for one have no desire whatsoever to drop more than about 10-15 bucks on an unknown quantity, gamingwise, and certainly not $40-60 as usually required. This has made Gamefly invaluable, and I continue to wish a similar rental option were available for PC titles.
And for what it’s worth, Demigod is not a singleplayer game. You can play multiplayer against the AI, but that’s hardly the same thing.
The devs didn’t just work Easter weekend. From release, to a few days ago, the devs were up till AT LEAST 3AM
That’s pretty much a normal working day for me, 10am to 3am — if I’m lucky, this last week I’ve been working far more. So I really don’t have any sympathy for the devs having to do that as a one off.
In my vain opinion, you’re truly delusional if you think that no DRM is a viable business model.
Stealing is stealing, pirating games with DRM on is not some kind of noble action, for the greater good to promote a consumer’s nirvana. We few on here may honestly believe DRM is a great evil and piracy to check a game has its purpose, but for the masses, they just download it and play, don’t fool yourself otherwise.
And once again dsmart starts dropping massive truth bombs all over RPS’s face.
But of course here come the evangelists to downplay piracy and try and push the blame onto something else. 12% of 140,000 people are playing legitimate copies and people here have the nerve to blame Gamestop and the lack of a demo? Are you kidding me?
The sooner you all realize piracy is a plague upon PC gaming the better. Developers have been fighting this war for years while the people that should be on their side (the gamers) side with basement dwelling losers who crack games for fun.
Its readily apparent even in the writing of this news article compared to other sources on the web that people here want to try and shrug off piracy and act like its not a problem. Unfortunately what you want to be true isn’t reality.
Stardock’s always had DRM in their software, Impulse is just another form of DRM just like steam. The difference is most people were stupid enough to buy into their ‘We’re on your side, please don’t steal our games!’ marketing with the Gamers bill of Rights garbage and no-DRM marketing.
Clearly that has failed. PC games needs a solution or its on the fast track to mmorpg-ville.
Piracy, its here to stay. I find these numbers not even shocking anymore. And 80% seems like a statement that can be applied to most games. Still the industry is growing and i know a lot of people that pirate games, but also buy it if they think its worth there money. Although i think you should just wait until it reaches a price you think is worth(not 60 euro, common for now games nowadays).
@ catska
And you didn’t bother reading the ACTUAL dev post of which this all escalated from. That’s nothing new…you believe everything you read from the internet.
12% of 140 000 CONCURRENT users were using the updated version and the rest were pirated or non updated(but legit) versions to ping servers.
Those figures don’t tell ANYTHING of actual sales. Just look at kotaku or any other site that posted the “100 k pirates vs 18 k legit” news…they have updated it with the actual story.
No sane person buys a pig in a poke(like you brits say)…so actually seeing what you buy makes perfect sense. no trailers or previews give you a complete picture,demos might.
I’m not saying piracy doesn’t hurt,but it is way over exaggerated just to get some headlines and attention.
You could even say it’s a sort of advert for the game…who knows if those numbers are real. think about it. ;)
I’ve found the multiplayer to be getting MUCH more responsive. It’s still a challenge to find and join a Pantheon game, but it’s gone from never (the first day I played) to an hour down to maybe fifteen minutes. Not good, but considering they’ve had to pull together a ton of extra server power and how transparent they’ve been I’m willing to deal.
@DerekSmart: During a talk at GDC, Wardell called CompUSA a bunch of “bastards” because they demanded that you pay for shelf space. Guess they aren’t the only retailer who does that.
Plus, they can get away with it because as it stands, retail space still beats ESD for certain markets.
Who crosses the Rubicon first? When it comes to newish games, retail is almost always cheaper than DD (just ask European customers). Why buy digitally when you can save 25-35% by purchasing a physical copy?
Also: like I said in the forums, 18k concurrent connections is pretty good. At release, E:TW peaked at maybe 40k concurrent connections. L4D has sold millions of copies, but peaks at 20k concurrent users.
Would something like Steamworks have prevented this? The game stays encrypted until the official release date, at which point Steam decrypts the game files. So even if someone leaks a copy before release, it should be unplayable.
The saddest part is that so many people were stupid enough to pirate a game only to find out that there is no singleplayer content. http://forums.demigodthegame.com/313497 my ass.
dsmart, I don’t see why you think you’re in any position whatsoever to comment on the game’s sales.
Their planned capacity amounted to roughly 50,000 simultaneous connections in the first few weeks. 18,000 legitimate simultaneous connections on the first day seems awfully reasonable to me.
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Demigod is doing any worse than Sins of a Solar Empire. But higher piracy numbers do mean a higher level of interest, which could mean that in the end, more people end up buying the game.
18,000 peak connections on day-1 is right inline with how games like Left 4 Dead and Team Fortress 2 did, FYI.
Also note, please don’t start with the straw men and pretend like I’m in any way advocating piracy. I buy all my games and think that game pirates are the scum of the earth.
The only thing I’m saying here is why Brad Wardell’s “ignore the pirates, treat legitimate customers well” mantra has not been proven wrong here, and why there’s no reason for that mantra to continue serving him well.
@Psychopomp
So if devs who work till 3am deserve a prize or some sort of special mention, what about the thousands of us who work in IT support that have to be on-call 24/7/365 and quite often do get calls at all hours of the day and night? It would seem that by your scale, we should be up for the Presidential Medal of Freedom or similar…
Honestly, if the game was on Steam… I’d buy it in a heartbeat. Also, I doubt this problem would have occurred since it requires considerably more effort to pirate a Steam game. There’s something unnerving to have to install another game distribution system on my PC just to play a single game. I like to consolidate.
Also, without a demo, they really should have expected this much piracy. All it would have taken is to have a stripped down multiplayer-only demo with 1 map and 4 demigods. Sales would have skyrocketed.
Oh, and one more thing – I’m not sure, dsmart, why you think you’re in a legitimate position to claim that Stardock is lying about their no-DRM claim in Demigod. Demigod doesn’t have DRM.
It doesn’t require activation to allow you to play. There is no way for Stardock to revoke your rights to play a game you bought. There is nothing stopping you from reselling the game. DRM = digital rights management. Demigod as a blasted CD Key, and that’s it. There is nothing within Demigod managing the digital rights you have with the game.
Only thing that’s “managed” is access to patches. If you think that it’s “DRM” to force you to provide a legitimate CD Key to download a patch from their servers, that’s an asinine standard you’re holding them to.
@Chiablo
Sins of a Solar Empire didn’t have a demo until a month and a half after release. Makes more sense to get your initial sales in right at the beginning from dedicated customers, wait a month or so to get the initial glitches fixed, gameplay tweaked a bit, and then release a demo.
Do you think that releasing a demo when all these connection problems were going on would have bode well for demo->purchase converts? Of course not.
In the meantime, releasing a demo might cut down on piracy numbers, but:
1) Pirates can’t play the game online anyway, and
2) Having legitimate demo users encounter connection problems on launch week isn’t exactly a positive introduction to the game.
@JC You misunderstand, DSmarts point is that theres different kinds of DRM out there, theres the online activation type with stupid install limits, and theres CD keys, CD keys are still a system designed to limit (Restrict) unauthorised play of the game, it IS a form of DRM, just less controversial and intrusive than Securom.
I’ll be glad to wait a few weeks till this comes out at retail in Europe (May 8th or 15th I think), seems to have a sort of advantage after all. :) Though a SupCom: FA patch is higher on my wish list.
As for that netcode, Stardock did all that apparently. I don’t think there’s anything GPGnet related in Demigod left except for the fact it’s also p2p. Maybe they should have built on GPGnet though because it was a decent service overall except for a few bugs (oh, that patching). As for p2p itself, pretty much every major RTS is using it, must mean something, doesn’t it?
@dsmart:
“3. If there is a key required – whether offline or online – it is a form of DRM. What has happened in this DG case is that this “DRM” has – just like SecuROM, Tages, Starforce etc – deprived legit gamers from using the product they PAID for.”
uh, what?
gamers weren’t deprived because of any DRM / auth checks. gamers were deprived because the check for game updates was timing out. How is that a DRM issue?
I agree that the game does include DRM (but not copy protection*) in that you need a legit key to get updates and play online, but that seems irrelevant to the problem.
@catska:
“Stardock’s always had DRM in their software, Impulse is just another form of DRM just like steam”
this is almost a question of definitions. (Just let me say to begin with that I don’t like impulse; I find steam a lot more user-friendly). In the sense that stardock doesn’t have an anonymous-access ftp server with all their games on it then yes, impulse is controlling access to downloads based on what it thinks is in your account. But unlike steam, once the game is on your computer you don’t need impulse installed to play it. My definition of _any_ kind of DRM (and I consider copy protection to be a subset of that) is that it’s something that happens after the game is installed, on a continuing basis. And yes, I consider Stardock’s “no DRM” mantra to be nothing more than marketing
I know some people consider even Steam’s “redownload your games at any time and get all your updates from one place” form of DRM too intrusive (possibly because of update delays); I wonder if Valve would do the zero-day-decryption-of-content thing without making the game exe require steam to run?
“gamers weren’t deprived because of any DRM / auth checks. gamers were deprived because the check for game updates was timing out. How is that a DRM issue?”
I don’t know, but maybe he mean if the game where “FFA”, everyone is able to connect to some random server, or other people, withouth the AUTH HTTPS checks, the server would not have been hit hard.
I don’t know. *shrugs*
Never argue with a fool Tei. The argument is simple.
If this were a SecuROM game and the CD-ROM didn’t work when you took it home, you won’t be able to play the game. DRM.
If this were Steam and you preloaded, tried to play and couldn’t – as has happened NUMEROUS TIMES – you won’t be able to play the game. DRM.
If this were Impulse Drive and you bought the game (store or ESD) and tried to play (THIS IS A MULTIPLAYER GAME BTW) the game and couldn’t – because you couldn’t connect to an auth server – you won’t be able to play the game. DRM.
Now imagine this. You buy the game. No DRM. You take is home, plug it in, play. You don’t need a CD-KEY to go to an auth server to get patches or play multiplayer, you don’t need the CD-ROM in the drive to play etc. NO DRM. NO HASSLES
If ALL the people and pirates who couldnt’ play DG when they BOUGHT or STOLE it didn’t have to auth, we would NOT be have this [DRM] related argument.
People just like to bury their heads in the sand and ignore then elephant in the room.
If nothing else, maybe Brad will shutup now about this “No DRM” nonsense. Sadly it took someone else’s product to teach him that PEOPLE MOSTLY CAN’T BE TRUSTED no matter how good your intensions.
Who said anything about lying? Your words, not mine. Its just frigging common sense that no matter how you slice or dice it, this is a DRM related issue. But go ahead, ignore that if you will.
Exactly. But that other person said that because someone was making $8 an hour (as if he was there and knows who was working until 3AM and who wasn’t) that we should feel sorry for them. If I’m being paid $8/hr and didn’t have to work at 3AM and you asked me? I’d say fuck you and go right back to sleep. You get to make a choice.
But what would happen if you cleaned the Unclean Beast? Would it die? Would it be a Clean beast? Would it simply develop diseases resistant to the detergents?
I’m fed up of pirates. Whether they directly make single-player PC games unprofitable, or they are simply percieved to, my favourite area of gaming may very well be on the way out, because of these kind of wankers. I sincerely hope that the Pirate bay lads don’t manage to appeal their way out of their year inside. Fuck them, and the next ones, and the next ones.
I’ve just been practicing offline, honestly. When you hear the explainations, the netcode problems make perfect sense, so I see no real reason to get up in arms about it, especially with how prompt they’ve been about fixing the issues. Pity web reviews won’t take this into account, though.
Mr. Smart is famous for releasing buggy, unfinished games, and yet he’s here criticizing GPG and Stardock, who have released some of the best PC games of recent years: Sins, SupCom, and GalCiv I/II. I bought Demigod and am enjoying it despite the netcode issues. I have been playing with friends over Hamachi. Does no-one remember the horror that was Steam when HL2 was first released? I couldn’t even play single player for several days, and when I was finally able to do so I was affected by a horrible sound-caching bug that was patched about a week later.
Demigod is a good game and it’s sad that the netcode/piracy issues (and criticisms like Mr. Smart’s) have overshadowed that.
Since this entire issue has been grossly misrepresented by Ars and some other blogs (I’m really sick of “journalists” cherry-picking info that fits the story they want to tell), I think it’s appropriate to link to another Brad Wardell interview. The important bits:
I don’t want to do anything that inconveniences our legitimate customers because even if I stop all piracy, I don’t agree that it would noticeably increase our sales.
You have to take a step back and say, “if you had stopped them from pirating it, would they have bought it?” The answer is probably no.
Lots of commentators here and elsewhere totally ignore everything Wardell’s said about the issue and instead, quite frankly, proceed to talk about their hindquarters.
Awww, Wardell seems like such a nice guy ;-(
O where have all the Ninjas gone?
thinkingork: You know, when you accuse people of being factually iffy, it’s traditional to point out a fact which is wrong. There’s nothing in Brad’s post which contradicts anything Alec has said.
KG
It’s the forces of light against the forces of evil. But evolution released human with broken neural net code, so people cannot connect to each other.
Love
How poetic.
So . . . Love is the best DRM?
I like Demigod.
@Noc: Love is DRM? So we should all boycott it and downrate it on Amazon, I guess?
They’re not beyond reproach. They are good developers, however, who put out decent games and who will fix the issues which have arisen. The “damage,” as you say, lies primarily in that reviewers (read: Gamespot) seem to be reviewing Demigod rather more harshly than the many other titles which launch with networking issues. Some people still think game review sites which apportion out grades are credible, and that will impact sales for the entire lifetime of the product. It’s very disappointing.
As for ad hominem attacks, well, the irony there is hilarious.
“But of course here come the evangelists to downplay piracy and try and push the blame onto something else. 12% of 140,000 people are playing legitimate copies and people here have the nerve to blame Gamestop and the lack of a demo? Are you kidding me?”
Are you kidding? Piracy is not something that’ll bring the industry down. Are they still making movies despite the ease of piracy (wonderfully symbolized by VHS)? Last I checked, they do. Do they still make music, despite the ease of piracy? Last I checked, they do.
In both of those cases, vocal figureheads (mostly the publishers) have becried piracy and that it would destroy their respective industries. It has not happened then, it will not happen now.
I’ll reiterate once more the only important point I made above, and the only important point that the vast majority of people have chosen to ignore:
Stardock planned for a 50,000-person capacity that they didn’t expect to reach until a few weeks after launch, if they EVER reached that.
On release day, they already reached 18,000 (legitimate) users – the same numbers that Team Fortress 2 and Left 4 Dead regularly put up, and not too far off from what those games did on their own launch days.
What does that mean? Demigod is doing fine. Their legitimate userbase is already well on track to meeting their predictions for how much server capacity they should have.
dsmart – you’re making bold, baseless claims about what numbers the game might put up or might not put up, and alluding to the idea that they’ll be disappointed with sales. Well, the only true pieces of evidence we have – expected capacity a few weeks down the road, and legitimate concurrent player base on launch day – seems to demonstrate that the game is doing damned fine and dandy sales-wise.
And then, the game got fixed, and GPG/Impuse got a butload of money, and everybody was happy, happy, forever, ever, ever, ever, ever…. lalala, ..
This should cheer everyone up.
@ Interjecting
Thats not even remotely close to what you – or him – are implying that I said.
Never said anything about numbers, low, high or otherwise. Nor did I say anything about them being disappointed with sales. Failing to meet expectations doesn’t fall in either category. Nice try though.
My comment has everything to do with Brad’s notion that they sold 500K of SiNs because of “No DRM”. Which, we all know – at least us sane ones here in reality land – is rubbish. The game suceeded for all the aforementioned reasons, but was still pirated as hell. THATS what I’m talking about and refering to – and is exactly what I wrote.
Big deletefest here. We go away for five minutes and look what happens… Everyone – be you reader, developer, whoever – keep your crazy rage in check.
Brad Wardell never said that Sins sold well because of a lack of DRM, actually. He said this:
1) Sins wasn’t pirated much because its target audience was of the type who are more than happy to purchase games, and because those who normally go and pirate everything probably wouldn’t be interested in pirating it.
2) Stardock’s DRM policy is not to increase sales, but rather to not harass legitimate consumers with copy protection that doesn’t help very much.
He never said that lacking DRM increases sales, and has therefore never and would never brag about sales using a lack of DRM as a reason for those sales.
@ DSmart:
If you say so man.
*rages crazily*
@dsmart: How is it possible for a game to fail to meet expectations, *without* the developers being disappointed? Isnt that essentially what the words “disappointment” and “expectation” mean? You are disappointed if something does not meet your expectations.
I wrote out a few paragraphs about this but I can’t control my rage. Every time piracy is mentioned I start fuming.
I bought this game and I buy a LOT of games, I also pirate games. I also love taking drugs and many other illigal things. I know they are not strictly relevant. But I feel like I am being called a criminal for everything else I do so screw it, why not pirate things.
I’m still pretty enraged and this probably doesn’t really represent my views and is just a rant so apologies for that.
“Are you kidding? Piracy is not something that’ll bring the industry down.”
Ok, that kind of (Frankly presumptuous) comment I can’t overlook, let me present you with some factual research, this comes from the Independent Game Developers Association Quality of Life White Paper, bottom of page 42:
“It is a well-known fact that a very small proportion of games published become successful in the marketplace. In 1999, fewer than 3% of PC Games available on the market, and about 12% of console titles, sold more than 100,000 copies – a figure that is itself often far below the breakeven point [Laramée00].”
That is to say, of the games released in 1999, the majority of games failed to break even, they made a loss. It is unlikely that this situation will have changed, especially as game development budgets have gotten more expensive, not less. If piracy weren’t so rampant, how many of those games might’ve broken even, how many might have kept a developer afloat long enough that the stars might align for the company, resulting in a stellar game that goes down in legend? How many? How many jobs are pirates going to put at risk until they put down their self righteous attitudes and admit that piracy is a bigger problem than they want to admit. Sales are high in the games industry, maybe, but profits certainly aren’t…
Maybe the industry needs to change? And maybe for this to happen it has to crash and burn.
Just speculating, don’t bite my head off!