By John Walker on April 26th, 2009 at 12:24 pm.
I’ve been playing Knights of the Old Republic making all the most evil choices possible. Like you do. Written up in three parts, the final chapter of Simon Evil’s wrongdoings has now appeared on Eurogamer. You can read parts one and two by clicking on these cleverly placed links. Here’s an excerpt:
“It’s interesting how picking the evil choice that destroys a woman’s life, or kills an innocent, or sees families slaughter each other, has a very different emotional effect than aiding the enslavement of an innocent tribal race. All are obviously deeply evil, but I think I’m able to compartmentalise the more individual actions more easily, mentally filing them under “terrible thing I did in a game”. Even though polluting the Kolto would have devastating effects across the entire galaxy, I think it’s still pretend enough to laugh off. Oppression struck deeper. I was still delighting in making the evil choices, but here on Kashyyyk I was feeling those familiar pangs from the first third of the game again.”
26/04/2009 at 12:39 ImperialCreed says:
Read it this morning. What you made Big Z do at the end actually made my mouth fall open in shock.
You evil man you.
26/04/2009 at 12:40 ImperialCreed says:
Still though, really enjoyable series. Playing KotOR anew because of you.
26/04/2009 at 12:44 HidesHisEyes says:
So depressing… :(
I don’t think Mafia lets you really make any choices, it’s not that kind of game. It’s already happened, for a start…
26/04/2009 at 12:54 Jeremy says:
I’d forgotten about you writing this. It’s a great read. I’ve just started KOTOR 2, and I’ve already accidentally gained light points.
26/04/2009 at 12:56 The_B says:
Hurray! Now I can continue my Mass Effect renegade playthrough without being outshone and out-eviled by this one!
On a more serious note – really enjoyed this series, bloody well done from start to finish. I still love KOTOR even though I’m not a huge fan of the Star Wars movies (any of them). And yes it is your fault I’m attempting my ME one.
26/04/2009 at 13:13 Echo says:
That Walker guy is such a bastard.
26/04/2009 at 13:21 teo says:
Pfft, it’s just a game
People have much stronger reactions to you when you’re evil and that’s more fun. Characters can’t smile in KotOR, but they can show fear
26/04/2009 at 13:32 CakeAddict says:
You know I loved that last part with Zalbaar (or whatever his name is) and Mission, I laughed when I saw the option.. it’s so evil! =3
I’ve recently played Kotor1 again to.. perhaps I’ll do Kotor2 to.. even though that game is missing a lot compared to 1.
26/04/2009 at 13:46 Cooper says:
Wow. I knew there was scope for evil in the game, but having Zalbaar kill Mission…
I’m gonna have to play this through again. I played a completely neutral character the first time – most by virtue of the fact that I mixed the odd good deed with outright selfishness. I’d always wondered what it’d be like to push one way or the other.
A fantastic game. Even for the odd bit of bad voice acting, over all it’s just epic. I knew it was a good game, but, after reading this, feel like I’ve only glimpsed a bit of it with one playthrough.
It’s a sign of amazing writing that they’ve managed to make it convincing even at the extremes.
26/04/2009 at 13:58 Duoae says:
Wow, really great writing, John! I really enjoyed this series as much as i enjoyed that first legendary play-through Gal Civ 2 by the PC Gamer guy. I hope they let you do many more interesting topics like this…. and if they don’t then just do them anyway and stick them on RPS!
26/04/2009 at 14:03 El Stevo says:
I don’t like you anymore, John Walker.
26/04/2009 at 14:13 Rei Onryou says:
Thanks a lot John, I’m playing through on my EEE and I’ve just got to Tatooine (my first planet), but now I can’t read any further for fear of spoilers that I may not already be aware of.
Wouldn’t be a problem apart from having no time to do it! *cries*
26/04/2009 at 14:18 orta says:
That was amazing. Its incredible how epic the story of KOTOR was, I played through as a constantly nice person, I find it tres difficult to be evil, even in video games.
Perhaps the next moral choice RPG I can try this, as mentioned above perhaps Mass Effect could be that RPG.
26/04/2009 at 14:57 tba says:
I played a very similar way through on my first go (I was curious about the evil/good choices vs the original black and white) and really enjoyed it.
For me the game was about being a bastard, no matter how much of a shit head I was people kept talking to me!
Trying again a year later to be really good, I found it a sterile game with no punch that lacked any story related to me. Then again it might have been because I knew how it ended and was not drawn in as much, anyway exact opposite experience here.
26/04/2009 at 15:01 Jockie says:
Reinstalling the game now, great series of articles.
I probably mentioned this in the comments of the last part, but Kotor 2 does a pretty decent job of allowing relationships to flourish with your party members even if you’re pretty evil, due to an influence system whereby your actions and personality will change your companions. But thumbs up to bioware for having you able to get a 14 year old girl killed by her best friend, I wonder if Lucas knows!
26/04/2009 at 15:32 FhnuZoag says:
Great. Now do the same for Planescape. I dares ya.
26/04/2009 at 15:50 YouAteMyCheeto says:
Wow, my brain exploded when I read the last page. Great job, John. I really loved the whole thing. It blows me away that LucasArts put so much thought into the evil side of things. I never would have guessed that they would make such horrible acts possible.
I like Zoag’s suggestion. Do it for Planescape.
26/04/2009 at 16:00 Orange says:
John Walker, the ultimate Bastard.
26/04/2009 at 16:26 sbs says:
Excellent read, John Walker.
The numbness you talked about in the end is familiar, I had the most vivid experience of that when I was watching Rambo IV. I was really kind of disgusted with myself when I realized how much my senses were being dulled(correct usage?) in the timespan of maybe a hundred minutes.
26/04/2009 at 16:32 Jonas says:
I messed up my dialogue choices so hard in the end of KOTOR, I was forced to kill Bastila on the Star Forge. That was surprisingly unpleasant, but in a good way. I still remember KOTOR as a very tragic game because of it.
26/04/2009 at 16:45 skalpadda says:
“It blows me away that LucasArts put so much thought into the evil side of things.”
Well, Bioware did, I doubt LucasArts had much to do with the story writing (thank god) ;)
Another great read, and I have to say I agree very much, it’s refreshingly different to play evil when you’re usually play good, but it does numb you after a while
26/04/2009 at 16:47 Dean says:
If I remember correctly, if you take Zaalbar with you in the last bit after having him kill Mission, he becomes so consumed by guilt he eventually turns on you.
26/04/2009 at 16:51 Bhazor says:
It’s good to see I’m not the only guy who struggles to be mean to imaginary people. I even struggle with books like Lolita or Nineteen Eighty Four. I feel as if my reading the book is the cause of their suffering and find myself wanting to apologise.
Reading that helps me realise how stupid it is. I’m still going to feel like a complete dick everytime Winston has a bit of a sitdown in Room 101. Boo, O’Brien you big bully.
26/04/2009 at 16:51 Spd from Russia says:
Good reading. I agree its kinda hard to hurt people personaly, even in the game, where you know its not for real.
Could replay kotor just for that
26/04/2009 at 16:57 Headwoünd says:
Aw, I tried to figure out an understandable neologism using KotOR, tour and torture in one word for ten minutes and now I forgot where I was actually going with this…
You bastard. :c
Also nice read.
26/04/2009 at 17:11 YouAteMyCheeto says:
@Skalpadda
Wow, I’m dumb. I really should make a rule not to write any comments just after I wake up.
26/04/2009 at 17:43 malkav11 says:
Having Zaalbar kill Mission is indeed one of the great evil moments of gaming. It was even a bit worse for me, because in these games, while I take pains to be as evil as possible to everyone else, I treat my core crew of party members well – at least…as long as they’re useful. So I’d been nice and helpful and understanding with Mission, etc etc (you don’t get good points from party conversations, mostly.)….and then when she takes a hike, well, it’s time for her to die.
26/04/2009 at 18:04 Pijama says:
I also support a Planescape version.
That (evil KOTOR playthrough) is easy when compared to offer a sacrifice to the pillar of skulls…
GO AHEAD, MR. WALKER. (or any RPS who feels like it)
26/04/2009 at 18:55 pilouuuu says:
@ pijama Be careful with spoilers to those of us who didn’t have the chance to end Planescape. Or advance too much really. Planescape seems to be like an epic experience. Sometime I’ll have to play through it.
Great article. The convincing Zaalbar to kill mission reminds me of classic Star Wars dilemas like when Palpatine want Vader to kill his son. I guess Revan can be even more evil than Darth Vader!
26/04/2009 at 19:03 Bhazor says:
Reply to Pilouuuu
Well I thought everyone knew he was a ghost already.
Besides Planescape is better to read about than it is to play. Unless you really really enjoy taking advantage of badly, occasionally offensively, defined deranged people and terrible combat.
Fuggin’ bring it fanboys.
26/04/2009 at 19:37 Kanamit says:
I played through KotOR as an evil person first. The only time I felt any guilt was that bit with Mission.
26/04/2009 at 19:56 Vinraith says:
This was a very enjoyable read. Much more enjoyable, IMO, than actually playing the game. Then again I’ve always said games like Planescape, KOTOR, Mass Effect etc would be better off as short stories rather than making claims to real interactivity.
26/04/2009 at 20:03 Nick says:
Then you’ve always been wrong.
26/04/2009 at 20:09 Vinraith says:
@ Nick
To each his own. If I’m going to spend 80% of my time reading anyway, and the other 20% in awkward, unenjoyable combat, I’d rather just dump the combat and the faux decision-making (because anything as tightly plotted as these games doesn’t really let you deviate that much anyway) and just get to the good part.
I’m obviously unusual, though. Most people adored Planescape, I found it downright unplayable.
26/04/2009 at 20:12 Pidesco says:
Now, you should do it with a game that actually has proper evil in it.
26/04/2009 at 22:04 Funky Badger says:
Fantastic article.
(In my own evil playthrough I’d managed to hold onto an ember of rage at how I’d been treated by the Jedi – and in general how smug they are. Thus justifying my monstrous choices. Of course Mission had no part in this, Carth got what was coming to him, but Mission really was innocent.)
26/04/2009 at 22:30 Ozzie says:
@Vinraith: I partly agree with you. Planescape is a wonderful world filled with strange and eccentric characters und an unusual story, but the combat was pretty annoying. So it wasn’t the best game ever.
But there was more to it than just combat in terms of interactivity. Dialogues, choices, exploration and some puzzles were part of it, too. All in all, Planescape should simply have been a better game. It is still a must play for every hardcore gamer, despite its many faults. It’s just too incredible in many ways!
26/04/2009 at 23:19 John Walker says:
Vinraith, I’m a little unsure how you could have read these articles and concluded that KotOR doesn’t offer real decisions. That’s what the last three articles have been about: the consequences of making different decisions.
26/04/2009 at 23:28 TooNu says:
John John John, you evil sick twisted man. I hope that doing this has shown you the error of your ways and never to do something like this again. I think your mother should be told and brought in for a meeting on this matter.
In the meantime you are to stay behind and do 1000 lines of the following:
I WILL NOT DESTROY MY GAME COMPANIONS LIVES EVER EVER AGAIN AND I REGRET MY ACTIONS DEEPLY.
27/04/2009 at 00:01 Vinraith says:
@ John Walker
You did everything you could to derail the plot line, and ended up in essentially the same place you end up if you play the game as a good character. The same basic things happen, the only difference being the ending and a lot of the “fluff” that doesn’t directly impact gameplay.
Honestly, it seems KOTOR is better about this than most games of this stripe. Look at Mass Effect, where being “evil” amounts to being bitchy in conversations and getting a slightly different ending.
27/04/2009 at 00:05 Thirith says:
@Vinraith: You’re right, the “fluff” doesn’t directly impact gameplay, but if you’re trying to play a role within the game the “fluff” is essentially what makes the game – if done well. With all of these CRPGs, it’s usually been about the relationships with the other characters for me, not about the overarching plot and main antagonist etc.
27/04/2009 at 00:11 paddytehpyro says:
When I read what Z was forced to do my mouth just fell open in shock… and a little bit…disgusted.
27/04/2009 at 00:13 Vinraith says:
@ Thirith
Clearly it’s a matter of taste, and again I know full well I’m in the minority on this. Nevertheless, being asked to choose between one of three predefined narrative paths doesn’t constitute “role playing” to me, especially when all three paths meet in the same place as often as not. I think it might be having been raised on pen and pencil games, I expect more freedom than that in something that claims to be an RPG. To me, expansive, pre-scripted storytelling is simply antithetical to allowing the player to actually role-play.
27/04/2009 at 01:52 John Walker says:
Vinraith – Certainly however you play KotOR you will end up following the same main story. However, the sheer volume of choices along the way, which you describe as “fluff”, can cause you to have a wildly different experience. Major characters live or die depending upon your actions, the outcome of the main quest plots throughout can be utterly opposite depending on the extremes of your behaviour, let alone the dozens of side quests. I don’t see how that you’ll still head to the Star Forge at the end makes this meaningless. I still fucked over all those people, I still destroyed the galaxy’s major source of health, I still murdered innocents, turned families brutally against one another, robbed and stole and lied. I’m not sure how to define “role play” if such criteria do not meet it. I was certainly choosing how to play my role.
However, you go on to suggest that pre-scripting is your issue. Since any other option is literally impossible, I can only assume you’re wholesale against RPG games, rather than believing there’s another way they should be made.
I accept that the game will take you down its prescribed route no matter what you do. However I contend that the depth of ways to behave and the variety of consequential outcomes means that journey offers a great deal.
27/04/2009 at 02:23 Vinraith says:
@ John Walker
KOTOR may be less linear than I think, I wouldn’t know (not having been able to make it more than 5 hours into the game on any given run). So if I’m wrong about that, then this was the wrong thread to (inadvertantly) start this discussion in. My own brief experience, along with the overwhelming sense I got from reading your and other pieces about it, is that it follows the Bioware mold of sticking the player on a preset path and only allowing significant deviation in the surrounding fluff. This is as opposed to, say, the Morrowind model, which allows the player to tell the main quest to bugger off completely if so desired.
I quite like RPG’s, but I hate being railroaded.
27/04/2009 at 02:28 unclebulgaria says:
/*edit: Apologies, originally written before Vinraith’s reply.
Walker, */ couldn’t agree more. A delightful game, certainly up there with Grim Fandango and Planescape in terms of quality of writing, if not outright humour.
There will always be physical limitations on developers’ time; this is an example of that time being spent in the most productive fashion possible. How long would it take to code a completely open-ended game? Sadly we just don’t have the technology to model these things in anything like the adequate detail; in my opinion, games like this are the best we can hope for (and my god was it good).
/* edit edit: de-ris:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_syntax#Comments */
27/04/2009 at 02:31 Thirith says:
My problem with what you’re saying is that you’re dismissing characterisation as fluff. In the fiction of any genre or medium that I find most involving, characterisation is at least as important as plot – and sometimes it’s the latter that is fluff.
Morrowind does not railroad you in the same way, but it’s also largely lifeless – an MMORPG played offline. It’s got a fascinating world, but forget about the NPCs…
27/04/2009 at 02:34 Vinraith says:
@Thirith
I’ve yet to meet a game where the characterization was above the level of a B movie, so I don’t see much different between the NPC’s in Morrowind vs. Mass Effect except that the ones in Morrowind know when to shut up.
If a game involved genuinely involving characters it might be different, I suppose, but I’m hard pressed to think of an example where that was the case. Certainly, reams of personal back story dialogue (again, ala Mass Effect) does not an involving or sympathetic character make.
Again, I look at CRPG’s as a means to reproduce my experiences with pen and paper RPG’s. If a pen and paper GM glurged out the kind of backstory excess that spews out of every character I’ve ever encountered in a non-NWN Bioware RPG the entire table would fall asleep before he was done.
Linear, story driven RPG developers seem to have forgotten one of the first rules of good story telling, show don’t tell.
27/04/2009 at 02:37 unclebulgaria says:
Thirith: indeed. I had trouble remembering the names of Morrowind NPCs because they felt so interchangeable. Oblivion suffered from much the same malaise. I guess for me KotOR had both characterisation and plot, making it one of the more memorable games of the last decade.
Come to that, GTA4 was probably the best game I’ve played in the last year for quality of each.
Vinraith, have you actually engaged with any games? Would you be upset if I were to suggest getting involved can actually enhance the experience?
27/04/2009 at 02:43 Vinraith says:
Thinking about it longer, the last RPG I can recall playing where any character personalities actually stood out to the point of still being memorable was the Baldur’s Gate series.
Ouch.
27/04/2009 at 02:44 JasonM says:
How do people get upset when in game non main strangers ask ridiculous and impossible tasks/quests of them? These npcs are jerks! They expect you to risk the only life you have to save the galaxy or to help them profit because they can not establish a normal life so you are designated their workhorse…No I do not think so and for their bothering I have a double bladed light saber as a reward. Many times the evil choices in kotor would serve the player with unrealistic consequences.
27/04/2009 at 02:52 unclebulgaria says:
Wow. I never thought I’d feel sorry for an internet person.
27/04/2009 at 03:01 Vinraith says:
-comment scrapped, this whole thing is getting excessively acrimonious and it was never intended to do that
I like open ended RPG’s that allow what I consider real choices, you guys like scripted mostly linear RPG’s that involve choices principally affecting the story and dialogue (rather than the main plot/gameplay). That’s fine, to each their own, enough said.
Summaries of gameplay from “your” type of RPG’s are an entertaining read in my opinion, which is all I came in here to say in the first place. Thanks for the write up John, we’re going to have to agree to disagree on the dynamics of a good RPG.
27/04/2009 at 03:06 Thirith says:
Out of interest: do you only read books once too? Because, let’s face it, it’s not as if the story will change on a second or third reading.
27/04/2009 at 03:10 Vinraith says:
Scrap that too, this entire thread has somehow become about me when it should be about John’s excellent write up. I’m out, and my apologies for the inadvertent threadjack.
27/04/2009 at 04:22 Baris says:
@Thirith: The average person actually reads a book more than once? I’ve never understood that and thought only my one complete book nerd friend read through books multiple times. Although I do always play through multiple choice RPGs more than once.
27/04/2009 at 04:29 Frosty840 says:
I’ll read books multiple times, but only a few, and only once every ten or fifteen years or so. If a book is particularly awesome, it does help to remind yourself of its specific awesomenesses.
27/04/2009 at 04:33 Kanamit says:
@Baris: I’m the same. I usually don’t even watch movies more than once unless it’s been so long that I’ve forgotten the plot. Games with choices, on the other hand, I’ve been known to play through upwards of four times.
27/04/2009 at 04:54 Idle Threats & Bad Poetry says:
See, that’s exactly why I chose Walker to win the Zeno Clash fistfight. You don’t mess with a bloke like him.
27/04/2009 at 09:49 Richard Beer says:
Another fantastic read, Mr Walker. I played through KOTOR twice, the first time as my normal caring, helpful self, and the second time as a complete arsehole, in much the same way as you have. I don’t remember if I forced the wookie to kill Mission or not, but there’s a good chance that I did and then erased it from my memory for the sake of my sanity.
I really enjoyed the concept behind this article actually. But what next for Simon Evil? Mass Effect? KOTOR 2? Or will he retire, knowing that nothing can compare to the complexity of KOTOR?
27/04/2009 at 10:08 teo says:
I hope you continue with KotOR II and do a comparison because I think that game is much better. It actually has believeable characters, unlike KotOR I where the characters are extremely flat and only serve the purpose of having a certain moral alignment. That’s what their entire character is based around, being really good or really evil. It’s kid’s stuff. BioWare only do black and white
27/04/2009 at 10:44 Ian says:
“and after having hermit Jedi Jolee Bindo join my group and tell me his story, replied, “I hate you, old man.”"
Best part of the three articles. :D
Perhaps not, but I did like it. Another thoroughly enjoyable read, Mr Walker.
27/04/2009 at 13:25 skalpadda says:
teo: “It actually has believeable characters, unlike KotOR I where the characters are extremely flat and only serve the purpose of having a certain moral alignment.”
I take it you never spoke to Jolee Bindo or Canderous much then? ;)
Don’t get me wrong, I somewhat agree with you. KotOR 2 had characters that delved much deeper and expanded the concepts of the first game in more interesting philosophical detail. The characters in both games are pretty much there to tell you their own little stories and give you their own personal view of things and in the end I think the first game pulled it off better as a full experience.
I also realize that whichever you liked most is largely a matter of taste though, just as the discussion above of a linear story RPG versus an entirely open RPG where you can go off and do whatever you want is also largely a matter of taste :)
27/04/2009 at 15:23 Jacques says:
You didn’t get the two saber crystals from the space station before kicking arse in the star forge?
04/05/2009 at 02:43 Lanster says:
Nice articles. Especially love the moments such as ‘Sadly it’s so shadowy and secret, I’d never know who to boss around’ and ‘after having hermit Jedi Jolee Bindo join my group and tell me his story, replied, “I hate you, old man.”‘