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	<title>Comments on: Refunds For Buggy Games: Good Idea/Bad Idea?</title>
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		<title>By: carlosmessi</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/05/15/refunds-for-buggy-games-good-ideabad-idea/#comment-192429</link>
		<dc:creator>carlosmessi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 01:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I like the idea. It happens to me before , I buy a game and it&#039;s just not working. Publisher will be more careful when releasing a game.

CEO of Shop Carefully
http://www.shopcarefully.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the idea. It happens to me before , I buy a game and it&#8217;s just not working. Publisher will be more careful when releasing a game.</p>
<p>CEO of Shop Carefully<br />
<a href="http://www.shopcarefully.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.shopcarefully.com</a>
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		<title>By: JKjoker</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/05/15/refunds-for-buggy-games-good-ideabad-idea/#comment-191171</link>
		<dc:creator>JKjoker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 22:32:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@psyk: i don&#039;t even know if they are considered games, they are more like services they might not be affected by the law</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@psyk: i don&#8217;t even know if they are considered games, they are more like services they might not be affected by the law
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		<title>By: psyk</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/05/15/refunds-for-buggy-games-good-ideabad-idea/#comment-191091</link>
		<dc:creator>psyk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 20:15:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=11609#comment-191091</guid>
		<description>What would happen to mmos there never free of bugs, would i be able to get a refund on my subscription?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What would happen to mmos there never free of bugs, would i be able to get a refund on my subscription?
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		<title>By: Psychopomp</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/05/15/refunds-for-buggy-games-good-ideabad-idea/#comment-191068</link>
		<dc:creator>Psychopomp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 19:23:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@OJ

You can&#039;t trust the hyperbolic masses either.

&quot;Here&#039;s some screenshots of Deus Ex three, an-&quot;

OMG ITS NUDDING LIEK DX1 ITS GON DA BE TURRBLE.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@OJ</p>
<p>You can&#8217;t trust the hyperbolic masses either.</p>
<p>&#8220;Here&#8217;s some screenshots of Deus Ex three, an-&#8221;</p>
<p>OMG ITS NUDDING LIEK DX1 ITS GON DA BE TURRBLE.
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		<title>By: psyk</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/05/15/refunds-for-buggy-games-good-ideabad-idea/#comment-191063</link>
		<dc:creator>psyk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 19:03:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>oh yeah of course there outsourcing the testing to two man business that are set up in there mums basement why didnt i see that :s</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oh yeah of course there outsourcing the testing to two man business that are set up in there mums basement why didnt i see that :s
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		<title>By: JKjoker</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/05/15/refunds-for-buggy-games-good-ideabad-idea/#comment-191037</link>
		<dc:creator>JKjoker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 17:56:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>i doubt they have the size and experience they need to actually do their job right now, again, lack of incentive, &quot;set standards and they will come&quot;

i think the industry is big enough to start using ISO style standards that probably exist but nobody uses, you don&#039;t even need to get forced to use them, just like any other industry, products from companies complying with several standards can ask for higher prices and have access to bigger and better markets than those that don&#039;t</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i doubt they have the size and experience they need to actually do their job right now, again, lack of incentive, &#8220;set standards and they will come&#8221;</p>
<p>i think the industry is big enough to start using ISO style standards that probably exist but nobody uses, you don&#8217;t even need to get forced to use them, just like any other industry, products from companies complying with several standards can ask for higher prices and have access to bigger and better markets than those that don&#8217;t
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		<title>By: psyk</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/05/15/refunds-for-buggy-games-good-ideabad-idea/#comment-190973</link>
		<dc:creator>psyk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 16:00:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=11609#comment-190973</guid>
		<description>&quot;-companies that specialize in testing games in different rigs, efficiently and with properly studied and optimized methods (every other industry has found the need to outsource tasks to groups that specialize in a specific part of development, why not gaming ?)&quot;

erm joker those companies already exist. I cant see how anyone who has played pc games for a while can think this is a good idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;-companies that specialize in testing games in different rigs, efficiently and with properly studied and optimized methods (every other industry has found the need to outsource tasks to groups that specialize in a specific part of development, why not gaming ?)&#8221;</p>
<p>erm joker those companies already exist. I cant see how anyone who has played pc games for a while can think this is a good idea.
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		<title>By: Pod</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/05/15/refunds-for-buggy-games-good-ideabad-idea/#comment-190908</link>
		<dc:creator>Pod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 13:43:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=11609#comment-190908</guid>
		<description>TEXT TEXT TEXT TEXT  THE NATION TEXT TEXT TEXT  TEXT THE NATION 
BTU WAHT IF I DON&#039;t WANT TOO!?!
TEXT TEXT TEXT TEXT  THE NATION 
BUT I&#039;M USING EMAIL - IS THAT A PROBLEM&gt;?!?!
TEXT TEXT TEXT TEXT  THE NATION 
IT DOESN&#039;T MATTER:
TEXT!

do doo dodo, doo doo dodoo doo</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TEXT TEXT TEXT TEXT  THE NATION TEXT TEXT TEXT  TEXT THE NATION<br />
BTU WAHT IF I DON&#8217;t WANT TOO!?!<br />
TEXT TEXT TEXT TEXT  THE NATION<br />
BUT I&#8217;M USING EMAIL &#8211; IS THAT A PROBLEM&gt;?!?!<br />
TEXT TEXT TEXT TEXT  THE NATION<br />
IT DOESN&#8217;T MATTER:<br />
TEXT!</p>
<p>do doo dodo, doo doo dodoo doo
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		<title>By: JKjoker</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/05/15/refunds-for-buggy-games-good-ideabad-idea/#comment-190681</link>
		<dc:creator>JKjoker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 02:02:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=11609#comment-190681</guid>
		<description>you know, things evolve when they are forced to
it might look impossibly expensive to develop games with this law now, but give it some time solutions to these problems will appear pretty quickly, for example:

-a DirectX like thing that properly handles hardware making it transparent to the software (why doesnt this exist now ? probably because of DirectX&#039;s monopoly and lack of incentive)

-companies that specialize in testing games in different rigs, efficiently and with properly studied and optimized methods (every other industry has found the need to outsource tasks to groups that specialize in a specific part of development, why not gaming ?)

-etc...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you know, things evolve when they are forced to<br />
it might look impossibly expensive to develop games with this law now, but give it some time solutions to these problems will appear pretty quickly, for example:</p>
<p>-a DirectX like thing that properly handles hardware making it transparent to the software (why doesnt this exist now ? probably because of DirectX&#8217;s monopoly and lack of incentive)</p>
<p>-companies that specialize in testing games in different rigs, efficiently and with properly studied and optimized methods (every other industry has found the need to outsource tasks to groups that specialize in a specific part of development, why not gaming ?)</p>
<p>-etc&#8230;
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/05/15/refunds-for-buggy-games-good-ideabad-idea/#comment-190649</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 May 2009 22:54:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=11609#comment-190649</guid>
		<description>&quot;Helen Kearns, spokesperson for Meglena Kuneva, said the commissioners wanted to kick start a dialogue with the software industry. 

&#039;The current status quo, where licensed products are exempt from EU law, is unsatisfactory,&#039; she said. 

At present, retailers are not obliged to give a refund on a video game that has a bug or glitch that prevents a user completing a game. If the proposals become law, this could change as users would have the right &#039;to get a product that works with fair commercial conditions&#039;.

Ms Kearns accepted that this assumes honesty on the part of users and that the system could be abused by people playing the game for a few weeks and then taking it back with a fraudulent fault. 

&#039;On the one hand there is the risk of abuse, but on the other it&#039;s not a good enough reason to say basic consumer protection should not apply.&#039; &quot; 

So she wants a dialogue with the industry? It sounds like the decision has been made and she wants developers to monologue their agreement with the new proposal. 

The problem with this is that there&#039;s no way of knowing how much this will increase the cost of game development, particularly when a lot of PC publishers are on the financial brink. If you&#039;ve noticed, the MSRP of PC games has fallen below that of console games by 20% or more. This despite the fact that it&#039;s more costly to develop for the PC and all its variations. There&#039;s no doubt that PC game purchases have declined steadily, especially compared to the explosive growth of console games. Raising the cost of the games will stunt sales even further, and could lead to the abandonment or cancellation of risky projects (as many others have mentioned). And that&#039;s not taking into account the effect of physical returns, which are actually more expensive and troublesome than simple non-sales, by either fraudulent or incompetent consumers. (It only takes a small percentage of miscreants to screw it up for everyone).

As a PC gamer, I voluntarily trade off the security of console gaming for the increased compatibility and customization, and unusual off-beat games by small developers that wouldn&#039;t make the console cut. This often requires more time and patience with developer mistakes, but that is a choice that I voluntarily make. I&#039;m considering the terrible irony that these laws, under the guise of increased protection, will actually restrict my choices of gameplay. Or in other words, I&#039;m willing to sacrifice a little security for a little liberty.

&quot;(Excuse that floating ‘n’ - a bug in our polling plugin)&quot;

I demand a refund. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Helen Kearns, spokesperson for Meglena Kuneva, said the commissioners wanted to kick start a dialogue with the software industry. </p>
<p>&#8216;The current status quo, where licensed products are exempt from EU law, is unsatisfactory,&#8217; she said. </p>
<p>At present, retailers are not obliged to give a refund on a video game that has a bug or glitch that prevents a user completing a game. If the proposals become law, this could change as users would have the right &#8216;to get a product that works with fair commercial conditions&#8217;.</p>
<p>Ms Kearns accepted that this assumes honesty on the part of users and that the system could be abused by people playing the game for a few weeks and then taking it back with a fraudulent fault. </p>
<p>&#8216;On the one hand there is the risk of abuse, but on the other it&#8217;s not a good enough reason to say basic consumer protection should not apply.&#8217; &#8221; </p>
<p>So she wants a dialogue with the industry? It sounds like the decision has been made and she wants developers to monologue their agreement with the new proposal. </p>
<p>The problem with this is that there&#8217;s no way of knowing how much this will increase the cost of game development, particularly when a lot of PC publishers are on the financial brink. If you&#8217;ve noticed, the MSRP of PC games has fallen below that of console games by 20% or more. This despite the fact that it&#8217;s more costly to develop for the PC and all its variations. There&#8217;s no doubt that PC game purchases have declined steadily, especially compared to the explosive growth of console games. Raising the cost of the games will stunt sales even further, and could lead to the abandonment or cancellation of risky projects (as many others have mentioned). And that&#8217;s not taking into account the effect of physical returns, which are actually more expensive and troublesome than simple non-sales, by either fraudulent or incompetent consumers. (It only takes a small percentage of miscreants to screw it up for everyone).</p>
<p>As a PC gamer, I voluntarily trade off the security of console gaming for the increased compatibility and customization, and unusual off-beat games by small developers that wouldn&#8217;t make the console cut. This often requires more time and patience with developer mistakes, but that is a choice that I voluntarily make. I&#8217;m considering the terrible irony that these laws, under the guise of increased protection, will actually restrict my choices of gameplay. Or in other words, I&#8217;m willing to sacrifice a little security for a little liberty.</p>
<p>&#8220;(Excuse that floating ‘n’ &#8211; a bug in our polling plugin)&#8221;</p>
<p>I demand a refund. ;)
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/05/15/refunds-for-buggy-games-good-ideabad-idea/#comment-190634</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 May 2009 21:48:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>H says:

&quot;...
If you bought a toaster and it didn’t work you’d take it back. Same with a vacuum cleaner, TV, DVD player, car. You take it back. You’re protected and you should get your money back if you want it.&quot;

Can we drop the ridiculous toaster analogy by now? Is there any compatibility issue with toasters remotely similar to PC software? Are there any health and safety considerations with software? Can a toaster be copied and returned for a refund? 

&quot;However most game’s retailers won’t give you your money back because, technically, it IS working, it’s just not working on my particular spec. I consider that out of my control; why the hell should I pay another grand or so on a different machine or on improvements to my rig just so see if the game works or works better?&quot;

First it doesn&#039;t cost a grand to upgrade a machine. If your system is out of spec, then that is darn well within your control. Part of PC gaming is using a machine meeting or exceeding the specifications required by the software; this is a responsibility of the gamer. Console gamers reliquish this responsibility in return for reduced freedom with the hardware.

&quot;You should get your money back plain and simple, I can’t even see the other side of the argument to be honest.&quot;

Clearly!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>H says:</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;<br />
If you bought a toaster and it didn’t work you’d take it back. Same with a vacuum cleaner, TV, DVD player, car. You take it back. You’re protected and you should get your money back if you want it.&#8221;</p>
<p>Can we drop the ridiculous toaster analogy by now? Is there any compatibility issue with toasters remotely similar to PC software? Are there any health and safety considerations with software? Can a toaster be copied and returned for a refund? </p>
<p>&#8220;However most game’s retailers won’t give you your money back because, technically, it IS working, it’s just not working on my particular spec. I consider that out of my control; why the hell should I pay another grand or so on a different machine or on improvements to my rig just so see if the game works or works better?&#8221;</p>
<p>First it doesn&#8217;t cost a grand to upgrade a machine. If your system is out of spec, then that is darn well within your control. Part of PC gaming is using a machine meeting or exceeding the specifications required by the software; this is a responsibility of the gamer. Console gamers reliquish this responsibility in return for reduced freedom with the hardware.</p>
<p>&#8220;You should get your money back plain and simple, I can’t even see the other side of the argument to be honest.&#8221;</p>
<p>Clearly!
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		<title>By: Bhazor</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/05/15/refunds-for-buggy-games-good-ideabad-idea/#comment-190498</link>
		<dc:creator>Bhazor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 May 2009 16:14:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Reply to Hyper

&quot;In any other industry it would be 100% unnaceptable for a company to deliver an unfinished or non-working product. If a car company shipped a new car model without steering wheels, they would likely go out of business, but it’s ok to ship games without “steering wheels” as long as the developers let the consumers download a “steering wheel” later?&quot; 

Wow, just wow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reply to Hyper</p>
<p>&#8220;In any other industry it would be 100% unnaceptable for a company to deliver an unfinished or non-working product. If a car company shipped a new car model without steering wheels, they would likely go out of business, but it’s ok to ship games without “steering wheels” as long as the developers let the consumers download a “steering wheel” later?&#8221; </p>
<p>Wow, just wow.
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