Despite our immediate early support, it seems that the masters of capitalism have decided Brutal Legend is not for the likes of us. So let’s do something about it. Let’s keep storming Doublefine’s headquarters and threatening Tim Schafer with the insertion of obsolete 3D-cards into much-needed body-orifices. As a Plan B, forumite Ulix has made a petition demanding Brutal Legend PC. Sign it. You may think that internet petition never change anything. But I think you’ll find that an internet petition was actually instrumental in the emancipation of women across many western states. It worked then, and can work again. Sign the petition here. And watch the trailer beneath the cut, then probably want to sign it again.
FOR THOSE WHO ARE ABOUT TO CHOP, WE SALUTE YOU, etc.
Related Stories:
Brulleks: That doesn’t swell the ranks much.
@Hümmelgümpf
You know, making claims and backing it up by throwing the names of schools around instead of taking the time to rationally explain why X isn’t Y generally discredits you from the argument because, to me, it really comes over as a high-brow version of this: “Planescape: Torment had philosophy!”, “Oh yeah? Your mom had philosophy!”
In my opinion Torment did contain some moral philosophical introspection, it might have been streamlined down a bit to introductory level to fit the nature of a videogame, and I’m not saying it’s James Joyce or anything, but I personally feel it was there. And if you’re going to make the kind of claim you did, then instead of throwing around school names you need to properly explain why you’re claiming (as a fact) that there’s no philosophy contained within any facet of Torment.
Not to mention that the Planescape setting is rather widely known as “philosophy with dice” (and people don’t call it that just for laughs).
So to me it looked like you were claiming something for the sake of claiming something and looking for an excuse to brag about your school to a bunch of people in a comments thread on the Internet who probably could care less, and do. To be honest, I haven’t seen such a fine example of waxing Arnold Rimmer at something in a long while, and all that that implies.
Oh, and I forgot this…
In Brulleks defense, there aren’t many games which undertake that theme, but there are loads of movies which try something along those lines, using comedy and electric guitarists to save the Universe. Bill & Ted, anyone? This list actually includes the really rather good Rock & Rule, and alongside Rock & Rule, Brutal Legend looks… meh.
Seriously, watch Rock & Rule and then set it alongside the Brutal Legend trailer. I would’ve preferred a Rock & Rule game.
So… I admit that most of my disinterest is because it just looks like a basic medieval World with Jack Black. If they’d picked someone who had more of a real tie to metal and they had them romping around the Electric Castle, or if perhaps you could build up a cast of playable characters defined by metal ballads, then I would’ve been excited. But this really does strike me as unimaginative.
It seems like it’s calling itself metal just to try and look different, when really it’s just a comedy action game in a medieval setting with a few metal-ish elements poorly tacked on.
Sorry.
@oddbob
I think I agree with you about the already great variety of games, but only if you include the peculiarities of indie gaming (PC and Console-based alike) into the mix. I’m sorry to say that modern major games all look the same to me.
But then, you don’t seem to find anything wrong with current TV output. That’s telling me we don’t agree on the basic level of gem : guff ratio we should strive for in a medium. I’m a big fan of some great TV series, but I’d be lying if I told anyone more than 12-15 of them (in half a century of output) are really worth one’s time. I don’t know about you, but that’s not what I want to be able to say about future gaming output. (Admittedly, there may be plenty of older stuff I haven’t even heard about that might be worth it. I’m no television historian.)
And the old bilge about “it sells so we can’t do anything about it” hasn’t cut it as a media argument since the 50s. As I told you, the initial debates were not about what sells, but what should be broadcast, in what proportion, to achieve what social goals, usw. What we have today instead is the “it sells/doesn’t sells” mantra copy-pasted on whole 200 pages marketing surveys: the programming is then reduced to what “sells” in such and such proportion of the public.
The very real and growing preponderance of console gaming predicated on such thinking is a real danger to FUTURE gaming variety (your frame), and FUTURE gaming high-mindedness (Quests’ frame): that is to say, I’m not agreeing with you or Quests, I’m saying both of you are on the wrong side of history, as far as I can tell. To say that we’ve attained a model of sufficient variety to withstand incoming consolidation and homogenization is in my mind very, unwarrantedly optimistic.
EDIT: to be clear, my problem with TV output is not so much the overwhelming mediocrity (which could be put down to me having exotic taste) but that it’s the SAME mediocre stuff anywhere you look. Granted, there are some fine pieces of television comedy, drama, scifi, etc. but the rest of the pile can more easily be seen as focus-grouped pretexts for advertising than properly ‘creative content’.
@Wulf:
Uhh… Because Torment didn’t explore any themes that philosophy is actually concerned with? “What can change the nature of a man?” is not a philosophical problem (I’d go even further and say that it’s not a problem at all), “What is the nature of a man?” is. Asking interesting questions doesn’t equal being philosophical.
At least we’re not arguing whether MGS or Braid have philosophy.
Kieron: OMM must stand for Old Man Moron, right?
It’s so easy to manipulate history and make up reasons for doing this and that.
I can say that guy badmouths her because she refused to hire him back in the days and he gets his revenge… hey i can say you go against her for the same reason, you say it’s not true and i say it is.
@Quests:
There are two ways to explain why Sierra’s later games didn’t sell as well as the early ones had:
1. Suddenly all Sierra fans caught a mysterious disease and died.
2. Sierra’s later games sucked donkey balls.
I wonder which one looks more realistic.
Quests: It’s a question of motivation, man. Why would KG, OMM or myself have the need to rewrite history? It’d serve no purpose, we’d have no vested interest in doing so.
Roberta Williams on the other hand, well, she certainly appears to think she does. And she’s welcome to think whatever she likes really. Creative people and fingering the blame at external factors isn’t exactly a new phenomena and she’s not the first and will be far from the last to do so.
Unfortunately for her, her reasoning doesn’t tally up with any sort of reality. You’re more than welcome to believe her view though, I just like a little more foundation with my speculation when it comes to gaming history :)
Apnea, ta for the reply. I’ll get back to you in a bit (fascinating chat btw), I think I’m going to need a brew first.
Subject 706:
If programmers try to appeal to those persons, there must be a reason, a market research that reveals that persons are keen to buy that product.
So, since the desirable result is finding that PC gamers are OLD folks(average age increase), and prefer steelbrained games:
-No action games on pc would mean that eventually all action kids will decide to buy a console and leave pcworld, so that we get rid of the flat mass and remain with exteremely polarized SLICES of market. Wouldn’t that be agreeable? Isn’t the flattening of tastes always bad?
But anyway, so you’re saying that PC has big enuff shoulders and it welcomes everything… it’s not really true cause flight simulations practically disappeared in the last years and are now slowly getting back to life, and the same goes for graphic adventures. But we’re talking about the triple A market, here, not the marvellous INDIE market, which we have to be ever thankful of, because they saved PC. So you can’t say triple-A PC market is fine because of the indie market, you give it a merit it doesn’t deserve, triple -A market SUCKS because of the invasion of action-games from console.
Good riddance. Psychonauts was rubbish anyway. And I don’t want a Jack Black in my PC.
Hümmelgümpf: I can manipulate facts too you know :)
Sierra games weren’t quality games because of the boycotting from the sierra bigwigs, and because PC market was already invaded by action-dongheads.
@Quests:
Are you really going to claim that Gabriel Knight 3 and Quest for Glory 5 were on par with their predecessors? You’ll be a dirty liar if you do.
I never played Qfg5(trying to find time to start the 3rd) but GK3 is a renown masterpiece(to most)
Quests:
Oblivion is a renown masterpiece to most. Doesn’t change the fact that it sucks. Thing is, most people are morons. You, an adventure gamer, should understand it like no other person.
As for why GK3 wasn’t that good, here’s another piece of Old Man Murray excellence:
http://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/77.html
Lol no, wait.
Oblivion is a renown masterpiece only to idiots, i devised a poll myself on a forum to proove that whoever liked Oblivion didn’t play/know Ultima7, it was a 4 answers poll “yes(liked OB) no(didn’t play U7)” and the other combinations… the people that voted “yes and no”(most) voted themselves idiots unawares, it was hilarious.
But GK3 esteemers are not douches, i guarantee.
But even admitting that Gk3 was bad, adventures weren’t dead at all, they were better than ever and showing evolutionary steps(like The Last Express by Prince of Persia’s Jordan Mechner), it was just a problem with the audience, after the first 3d games it was radically different, more average minded, wanted more action and less thinking.
So to recap all, BL not coming on PC might help this platform in getting back to its old niche identity.
What about people like me who liked Oblivion (heavily modded, admittedly) as well as Ultima VII and even the fifth and sixth game in the series? Or must they, in your understanding of the world, have suffered some catastrophic brain damage in the meantime?
Naturally we refer to Vanilla Oblivion, not a game modded enuff to completely cover up the horrible pile of dung Bethesda made, that insipid, boring, disgustingly bugged game.
Oblivion symbolizes what’s wrong with gaming today: mostly appearance, “immersive” and “realistic” combat that makes kids go “whoooa I feel sooo like im there”
@Quests:
“But even admitting that Gk3 was bad, adventures weren’t dead at all, they were better than ever and showing evolutionary steps(like The Last Express by Prince of Persia’s Jordan Mechner)”
Games like The Last Express and Blade Runner were an exception rather than a common occurence.
“it was just a problem with the audience, after the first 3d games it was radically different, more average minded, wanted more action and less thinking.”
You know what the REAL problem with adventure games is? Contrary to a popular belief, they don’t require thinking. They require guessing, an ability to see inside the deranged mind of the lead designer of the game you’re playing, and the “logic” of these games was only getting crazier as time went by. Again, there were exceptions, like The Last Express, Blade Runner and The Longest Journey, but they aren’t representative of the genre as a whole.
It’s amazing how this thread has transmuted slowly into PC Fundamentalists/Puritans vs Reality. It’s also very sad, as I grew up a PC-exclusive gamer (I am almost 26 now, and my first console was a Sega Saturn in roughly the final year of its shelf-life) to think that these people believe that they represent the system and/or (god forbid) me.
I just wish such dinosaurs would do us all a favour and just quietly fossilize, out of sight and out of mind and let me enjoy the system which (as others have pointed out) should be celebrating the HIGHEST variety of gaming software, due to its flexibility, not the least due to fanboys scaring off developers.
Dominic, do you really think that developers won’t make games on a platform because the odd one or two rotten eggs don’t welcome them? Why are you so firm in believing that a playerbase that you are part of scares off developers?
Apnea, I think we do have a fundamental 10-1 difference of opinion on things because I’m sorta not seeing what you’re seeing. I think you also (very kindly I might add) really overstate the Indie scenes contributions a tad. I’ll come back to that in a mo though.
I don’t really see all modern games looking the same at all. When you’ve got stuff like Demigod standing shoulder to shoulder with Prototype, Left4Dead and [insert random example from the past couple of weeks of featured posts on here alone]. If we look to consoles we’ve got Katamari sitting there alongside Halo and so on.
The indie scene might mix it all up a tad but like the mainstream, there’s just as much shit (probably more so, actually) and I say that both as an indie dev and someone who promotes a subsection of the indie scene and loves the wild variety of stuff that gets churned out. It’s likely feeling more disproportionate to some because we can bang out a game in a day, a week or a month or whatever and you can’t really do that with major stuff. I’d be a big fat hairy liar if I tried to pretend that it was all quality stuff though :)
To drift back to the TV discussion a bit. I’d be hard pressed to narrow it down to 100 great things for a Channel 4 Saturday night voxpopfest covering 50 Years Of Television, never mind as small a number as 12 or 15. Christ, I’d probably hit around half that with the Beeb’s Xmas Ghost Stories alone.
Just quickly glancing at the TV schedule for this week and well, I don’t have the time to fit in all the stuff I want to take a peek at. From documentaries on James Brown to catching up with The Daily Show, I’ve got plenty to keep me going – neither of those plucked out of my backside examples qualify into any sort of tickbox based “well, it sells” marketing decision based television unless you’re really cynical.
Essentially, I’m *really* struggling to see this potential drift into homogeneous mulch you’re predicting.
“And the old bilge about “it sells so we can’t do anything about it” hasn’t cut it as a media argument since the 50s”
I don’t want to do anything about it, that’s sorta my key point. I like the fact that this stuff exists and don’t have a problem with it. I loveses me some pop music, I loveses me some wild throwaway television and I loveses me some throwaway games. The last thing I want is a universe where media is dominated by some sort of cultural worth by diktat, I’m a human, I have different moods and tastes and I like having them all catered for. I like the fact that other people are catered for too.
I don’t have a problem with stuff I don’t like being popular and equally don’t have a problem with liking popular stuff.
It’s a total non issue for me and I truly believe that whilst you have creative people creating stuff, you’re never going to reach the disaster scenario of everything being some sort of marketing based hell.
Whilst I’ll happily concur that we should continually strive for better quality, more quality, we should also continually strive to keep on doing what we’re doing and that’s catering to the mainstream and niches alike.
We’re no closer than we’ve ever been before to falling into marketing mulch and we’re not likely to be either, IMO.
@Hümmelgümpf:
Well Graphic adventures have always been about guessing, most of the times. I always ended up doing the old “use all w/ all”… but the point is that it was frustrating, even boring, in a way. But we loved it nevertheless! We just loved to suffer! And even tho it was about guessing, your mind would still be grinding possibilities and combinations, it’s not like the mind was inactive while playing, unlike today. That’s the problem with mass players, they don’t intend to suffer when playing, they don’t wanna get stuck, they prefer the instant gratification… that’s why many adventures today contain way easier puzzles, in the attempt to attract the masses.
But this is out of topic already. The point is that we have to catch every possible chance to get rid of some of the crazy button-mashing people that are on PC. If a blatantly action-game like Brutal Legend isn’t coming on the PC it gives a clear message: “This platform is not for YOUR games, chums! Go buy the platform for you”.
And we can’t pass on that.
Maaan, Quests. You don’t even want this genre on the PC? I’ve never met anyone who would hate a genre that much to deny anyone from playing it.
Competition sustains demand and everybody can make an action game. Lucasarts had no real competition, so interest wanes and demand drops during their dev cycle when they’re not releasing any games. (Hyperbole).
Niche markets often become niche markets not as a direct result of the demand not being there, but because there aren’t enough people capable of delivering something to create that demand. So, devs and publishers create the demand, blame them.
Whose fault is it other devs weren’t able to make more games like Ultima 7? Did the people go and break arms and sabotage computers? No. There just weren’t enough capable devs. It’s not fair to judge the state of the industry based on a single studio.
(I made all that up)
Edit: I’d rather have a decent action game than 100 terrible adventure games. (Not that I’m implying Brutal Legend would be decent, I have no idea)
Dominic White:
Im sorry but that’s entirely utopical. The system’s variety isn’t due to software companies at all, if it were for them we’d just rot out of Bioshocks. It’s only thanks to corageous and nostalgic dinosaur-like indie houses that this variety exists, and indie houses constantly fight for some market and hate the massified market. Can you explain me why did the Vampyre story developers rise from their tombs only now?
The market that you so much praise literally strangled simulations and adventures for many years, until the blessed indie movement.
If there is such a great balance of videogames, how come the last Indiana Jones games were Tomb Raider clones and not adventures?
And what about the superb Vault D. Weller? Do you think he praises the market’s dumbing down?
Only 564 sig’s… *sigh*
But to be honest i’m always slightly dubious about games that you’d think would be ideal for PC due to the developers history but then only appear on console.
Like that new Star Wars game with all the fancy physics.
Makes me wonder if the game’s gonna appeal to PC types.
Reply to Quests
I think you’ve confused indie with the ds.
@Stupoider:
Heh heh.
If not playing it helps a renaissance of the more engaged genres, then no, why should you play it here and stifle this possible new golden age, since you can play it on another platform? Why make it twice? It’s important that platforms remain different in their styles and genres, levellation is always wrong. IMO.
Quests, I’m disappointed in you. You started this thread off as a top-quality troll, but faced with people who actually know what they’re talking about you’ve been losing your composure, and letting the mask slip as you flail about, trying to drive home any point you think might work, and missing them all.
I will still be linking your blog to a few of my friends though – that is some top-notch pseudo-intellectual BS, and entertaining as hell to read.
Signed, thought I’m optimistic this will turn up on PC eventually down the line.
@oddbob
Yeah, well, agree to disagree and all that. Just adding that in no way was I intending to grumble about other people’s niches being catered to and not mine. That was not my point if you’d reread what I wrote. Apart from that rhetorical twist you kept on making, I think that was a useful outlining of boundaries.
I want.
I’ve played DMC4 on a 360 gamepad, you won’t believe but PC games are supposed to have workable keyboard and mouse controls. Do they bundle DMC4 with a gamepad? No, they do not. Ergo, it should be expected Kb/M would be workable.
You can go on about ‘game design moving on’ and other such horrific nonsense involving mostly games that have always been console-specific, but the fact remains: if you want to make a game that sells on the PC, you’re supposed to at least support the most basic, most common control scheme PCs have. For DMC4, it’d be easy as pie too, say, for Dante, F1-F6 for weapon selection, 1-5 for style selection, mid click and scroll for lock on, LMB for attack, RMB for style attack, mouse rotation for camera, obviously and so on and so forth.
It’s not ideal, but it at least is workable. I’ve completed Psychonauts with Kb/M once, not ideal either but, hey, I didn’t have a gamepad at the time, what can I do? But instead, Capcom chose an absolutely idiotic scheme which was a direct gamepad to keyboard remap, and well, there they go-half the reviewers complained and most of the PC gamers took it to heart and decided to not buy it.
So to sum up, DMC4 was released on a platform with an audience that generally doesn’t care about the genre because it always had few PC entries, without workable Kb/M controls, and it wasn’t on any digital distribution. Argh, those god damned PC Elitists ruining everything again! At least I give Capcom props for how well their engine behaves on a variety of PCs.
Let’s do an experiment, make Hearts of Iron: 360 Edition, make it so that you’d have to buy a kb/m adapter for it, and make it a full retail release. Your bets on how much that would ’sell’ presumably due to ‘Console Elitists’?
That said, I’ll still be buying Resident Evil 5 on release because I don’t believe it’s possible to screw up controls in a shooter game, on the PC, but it doesn’t excuse Capcom from their own previous stupidity you want to blame upon people who choose to game on PCs.
In the meanwhile, please, don’t restrain yourself and add some more ignorant comments about RTSes, keys, and what-have-you. I’ll be here to listen.
Well the big problem with DMC4 was it was a great port of a mediocre game. Without all the hype the repetition and restriction (especially the non interactive scenery) were far more evident by the time it was released to the PC. Honestly, everyone here takes games seriously enough to spend £15 on a controller like Game Stores generic dual analogue controller. Also how would they include a controller with a download purchase.
To take your example, there’s plenty of console players who wants some hardcore strategy, just look at Koei’s Romance games, but getting a licensed keyboard and mouse? I’m no expert but two unique inputs going into one socket sounds a bit tricky to me. Also it would presumably have to be licensed so you can effectively double the price there. Then there’s issues with it being a totally different platform, Xbox 360 games are made on computers not the other way around.
DMC4 uses every thing on the 360 controller which includes 10 buttons, three directional controls and a rumble pak. The game is about using this complexity to create combos switching weapons mid move and plowing through swathes, if they’d streamlined it for a keyboard it would not be DMC now would it?
PS you can play minesweeper with the 360 controller. It rumbles when you die.
I once tried to play a flight sim with keyboard and mouse. That didn’t last long.
Clearly the game was broken and crap because it doesn’t use keyboard and mouse, because keyboard and mouse keyboard and mouse keyboard and mouse keyboard and mouse keyboard and mouse keyboard and mouse keyboard and mouse etc etc ad nauseum.
Or perhaps we can be grown-ups, and realise that the PC is a modular system, where different games might demand different control setups, and that the almighty fucking KB/M setup isn’t gods gift to gaming after all – it’s just one of many possible configurations that has its strengths and weaknesses.
As for the other way round, the PS2/PS3 have USB ports, and they accept standard mice/keyboards for certain games. The 360 even lets you plug in a standard keyboard for MMOs and typing messages.
“I’ve played DMC4 on a 360 gamepad, you won’t believe but PC games are supposed to have workable keyboard and mouse controls. Do they bundle DMC4 with a gamepad? No, they do not. Ergo, it should be expected Kb/M would be workable.”
This is ridiculous. Games come out on console that are better played with a peripheral like fighting games with a stick, or flight sim games with a flight stick, yet you don’t see consolers complaining that the optimal control method isn’t the one bundled with the system. Guess what, most people actually use different keyboard and mice than what came with their system, if they did at all. It’s not some standard (which the PC has never had, in anything) that all games need to adhere to.
The same pc snobs on here that preach about how the PC is so diverse and can basically do anything are the same ones whining about it getting a game that actually uses something different to control than the things you’ve been using for 20 years. And seriously who doesn’t have a gamepad by this point? No wonder most developers don’t even bother with the PC.
The keyboard was made for text input, just because you’ve gotten used to using it for games since games started coming out on PCs, doesn’t mean its anywhere close to a good input for video games.
‘For DMC4, it’d be easy as pie too, say, for Dante, F1-F6 for weapon selection, 1-5 for style selection, mid click and scroll for lock on, LMB for attack, RMB for style attack, mouse rotation for camera, obviously and so on and so forth.’
Wow, this would be terrible. Never design games please.
FWIW, I agree entirely. Both developers* and the public’s attitude to using appropriate control set ups (and in so, so many cases allowing a variety of control set ups) is generally grim in the PC space. Using 16 keys and a mouse to replace a simple-ish system like a joypad is a madness and generally an uncomfortable one at that. Of course, you could argue that using 16 buttons is a madness also :)
Perhaps there is a point in that if we bundled joypads with a shop built system then there might be a shift in that attitude, but it seems a bit odd that given the not exactly small expense of a PC to not go that £20 extra and get a decent pad instead of demanding all developers fudge a control scheme for the sake of keeping the peace.
At the moment we’ve got a scenario where regardless of how useful it is, mouse and keyboard is deemed king. I know of portals that insist on mouse control for games no matter how inappropriate it may be (it’s allegedly accessible, I’d beg to differ if it’s broken) and given there’s so many complaints over broken controls in ports precisely due to this issue, perhaps it’s we that should adapt our expectations a tad?
I dunno, in the meantime and given it’s a pipe dream – the best that can be expected is to offer configurable controls as standard and give people the choice of how to play. Sadly, the easier option is to just not try and I’d guess that it’s one of many reasons we don’t actually see that many ports.
Badly mapped controls aren’t a solely PC-centric problem though. Try playing any of the old arcade games designed for digital sticks on the 360 with an analogue pad. Ouchie. Game design break central.
*if I hear “but it’s innovative” one more time from a dev as an excuse for cumbersome or broken controls, I swear I’ll shed a little tear. This isn’t a solely PC game issue, mind you!
I just find it funny that Quests thinks Adventure games are intelligent, brainy, engaged, etc. Honestly, I liked a lot of old LucasArts adventure games, but it seems I only picked them up to play when I was feeling too tired or lazy to play anything that required more focus, like an RTS, RPG or (*GASP*) action game, because adventure games require practically ZERO brain activity when compared to pretty much anything else.
Really, let’s think about this for a second: they do not require a high intellect, since most puzzles are random and we all just do the old “use-everything-on-everything-else” routine anyway (according to Quests himself). They’re not really that stimulating or involving, either, since they’re “frustrating, even boring, in a way” (again, his own words). If you’re performing a monotonous, boring and frustrating activity, you’re not submerged in deep thoughts, you’re just killing time for the sake of killing time… It’s only mildly more involving than staring at the ceiling or counting sheep.
Even though it may not sound like it, I’m a fan of adventure games. But to claim they’re intelligent games? I’m sorry, that’s just incorrect: they’re as mindless as they come. The so-called “button mashers”* usually require a hell of a lot more strategy.
Plus, it doesn’t make sense to eradicate all the action games to make “room” for the adventures and hardcore rpgs. Let’s think for a bit:
Imagine that the total amount of PC gamers in the universe is 100. Out of those 100, only 4 like adventure games and old-school hardcore rpgs, while everyone else is strictly an action, FPS or casual gamer. Naturally, developers and publishers alike will tend to prefer working on action games, because adventures will at best sell only 4 copies and that’s not enough to make a decent profit. But, if we somehow magically banished all the action, casual and FPS games from the PC market, the developers would not start creating adventures and old-school RPGs left and right, they would simply leave the PC market and work exclusively with consoles. After all, the number of adventure fans is STILL only 4.
If anything, the existence of several different genres is a good thing for the adventure and hardcore rpg fans. Out of the 96 action and casual gamers, a few of them might stumble upon a hardcore rpg and end up liking it. Either by getting it as a gift, or buying the wrong game accidentally, or because the RPG was made by the same devs that made his favorite FPS, whatever. There’s naturally gonna be some overlap between the two groups and that will make it a little more viable for devs to create the niche games occasionally, even though it will still be a bit risky.
*This is off-topic, but a HUGE pet peeve of mine. Most games that get labeled as button mashers are usually precisely the opposite of that. Fighting games in general tend to get called that a lot, even though randomly mashing buttons results in complete and utter failure, and the only way to become a decent player is to be dexterous enough to pull off the correct sequences of buttons at the correct interval of time and be clever enough to remember which moves counter which quickly. Generally, people who use the expression “button masher” simply don’t know how to play the games they’re thrashing. I suck at fighting games too, but at least I recognize that they actually do, in fact, require skill and even intelligence.
@Doug F:
Harumpf!
Eh… there’s no such a thing as bad publicity, they say. And yeah well one starts trolling so one gets ppl’s attention, then one just discusses friendly. That’s uhm my policy.
@ Rubeck :
“Puzzles are random”.
You must be high on something. A friend of mine got SO much frustrated when playing Broken Sword, it was like a nightmare, I had to guide him in and out of it… he’d tell me that his mind would boggle with all the possible combinations of items usage and dialogues, they drove him nuts out of frustration and often snuck a peak at the walkthrough. After that he had to take a long pause with action games and swore never to play an adventure again. He just wanted to play relaxing games, where all you do is punch and kick stuff. As i said even tho in adventures you end up using all with all, the mind never stops reflecting on the possible ways to utilize the objects you have and link those with the short-termed “goals” you have in mind as you proceed… the line of electricity established(which is what i define as interaction in my blog) is the greatest achievement a videogame can hope for… tho there’s A LOT of room for improvement.
The fact that you played adventures trying to randomly get the right action to proceed without at least attempting to reason it out , doesn’t make the genre brainless or casual, it’s just your attraction to FAIL
In action games you’re too focused on killing enemies in the most gruesome effective ways, and you just grow reflexes and twitch skills with practice… so it’s basically just YOUR selfish self, you don’t really interact with anything except your desire to kill things and be most effective at doing combos and fatalities.
Action games do NOT require intelligence, just practice to learn timings. If any, it’s a very LOW grade of intelligence.
And now plz let’s get back on topic.
@Rubeck:
“Imagine that the total amount of PC gamers in the universe is 100. Out of those 100, only 4 like adventure games and old-school hardcore rpgs, while everyone else is strictly an action, FPS or casual gamer. Naturally, developers and publishers alike will tend to prefer working on action games, because adventures will at best sell only 4 copies and that’s not enough to make a decent profit. But, if we somehow magically banished all the action, casual and FPS games from the PC market, the developers would not start creating adventures and old-school RPGs left and right, they would simply leave the PC market and work exclusively with consoles. After all, the number of adventure fans is STILL only 4″
This is actually an interesting point and pretty much the core of the whole Brutal Legend subject.
I suggest we keep around these lines.
Does everyone think that scenario is true?
Yep.
Blah blah blah. Expecting kb/m to be inferior for mouse-unfriendly stuff with multiple analogue inputs like a flight sim or racer or fighting game is reasonable; claiming that DMC4 is inherently unplayable on a keyboard and mouse — rather than the porting guys just being spectacularly clueless and/or lazy about making controls for PC — is comedy.
Given that DMC4 inherently requires multiple control inputs that would make a keyboard shit itself and just fail to register any of them, yes, it is inherently unsuitable for keyboard play.
It is a game that uses five relative analogue axes (revving Neros sword-engine is mapped to an analogue trigger), a D-pad, and 11 buttons on top of that, many of which have to be used simultaneously. Unless you can find a way of mapping that effectively to mouse (two absolute analogue axes, lets assume two buttons) and a keyboard (no analogue, many buttons but only 2-3 can be reliably pressed at once), then be my guest.
Whatever you come up with, it will be completely unplayable, unless you somehow redesign the entire gameplay structure to match, which isn’t the point of a port.
It is exactly the same as a flight sim being unplayable with keyboard – you WILL fly straight into the ground because you’ve not got the right hardware. This is not because the game is bad, and this is not because the developers are lazy. It’s because you’re trying to fly a fucking plane with four digital buttons.
Enough with this retarded Keboard & Mouse Uber Alles stupidity. It is one of many possible control configurations, and there are MANY things that it is crap for.
HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!!!
Hulk Hogan is belly laughing a storm at all the PC Gaming eltiists in this thread.
Whenever you find out yet another game isn’t going to be developed for the PC you start suddenly hating it along with the company who’s making it. (sour grapes, much?)
It’s even funnier because whenever a console devoloper decides to dip their feet into PC Gamng you also automatically hate them because they usually only make console games.
DO YOU GET WHAT THE HULK IS SAYING, BROTHER?! MAYBE IF YOU STOPPED DOWNLOADING ALL YOUR GAMES FROM THE PIRATE BAY, QUIT TREATING DEVS LIKE SHIT UNLESS THEY’RE SOME INDEPENDENT NOBODY WHO SHOULD BE MAKING PAINTINGS INSTEAD OF VIDEO GAMES (BECAUSE THEY’RE BAD AT MAKING THEM FUN), AND DIDN’T GATHER A LYNCH MOB EVERYTIME A PC COMPANY MAKES A CONSOLE GAME (OR VICE VERSA) THEN MAYBE PEOPLE BESIDES VALVE AND BLIZZARD WOULD BE WILLING TO MAKE GAMES FOR IT!
IS HULK HOGAN GONNA HAVE TO BODYSLAM YOU?!?!
your just bitter because no wrestling games ever come out on pc.
“Enough with this retarded Keboard & Mouse Uber Alles stupidity”
Yeah, that’s a pretty retarded phrase alright (which you now used twice).
I don’t think you understand the difference between ‘workable’ and ‘ideal’. Because outside the 360’s d-pad, every fighting game, every Ace Combat game I’ve played on a console(the PS2 mostly), the basic, default controller used worked fine. Yes, an arcade stick is always better, but the fact is: the basic gamepad controls in them do not compare to DMC4’s basic keyboard controls which are pretty much unworkable.
Yet it’s still better than what Capcom envisioned for DMC4. Do us all a favor, and go tell them to never design games then, or, maybe, is it just fine to do it to me because you have nothing better to do than shield Capcom from people pointing out their obvious stupidity?
Devil May Cry 4 isn’t either a flight sim nor are most flight sims deliberately made unplayable with the most basic control setup the system has.
Have you actually ever played DMC4 yourself? Because you’re making it sound so complicated while most combos are a factor of two buttons total plus whether you’re locked on or not. And revving up the sword amounts to press-hold-release-at-peak-repeat. You don’t need to have analog input for it. In other words, you’re bringing up total bullshit to make seem like mapping 16 keys plus WASD to a keyboard is something that has never before been attempted.
@hulk:
Not me, Mr Hogan, i don’t do the sour grapes.
For the reasons above mentioned, i’m glad a pure action game like BL is ATM console only.
Tho now I have doubts that it would actually damage hardcore gaming. It might? :D
Hogan just dropped an atomic leg drop of truth all over this site.
‘I don’t think you understand the difference between ‘workable’ and ‘ideal’. Because outside the 360’s d-pad, every fighting game, every Ace Combat game I’ve played on a console(the PS2 mostly), the basic, default controller used worked fine.’
Try playing Steel Battallion for the Xbox without its gigantic mech sim controller addon. Games have had different control methods for ages now, I don’t see how this is somehow a problem. Even Ace Combat was sold alongside a 360 Flight Stick. Forza and Gran Turismo also have their own Steering Wheel peripherals.
You want to know the reason why most games work on an average controller? It’s because controllers were made for video games. A Keyboard was NOT.
‘It is a game that uses five relative analogue axes (revving Neros sword-engine is mapped to an analogue trigger), a D-pad, and 11 buttons on top of that, many of which have to be used simultaneously.’
Can you elaborate on this? I know there is 3 different analogue controls (left stick, right stick, trigger for Nero’s sword), where are the others and what do they control?
‘And revving up the sword amounts to press-hold-release-at-peak-repeat. You don’t need to have analog input for it. ‘
Wrong, the instant rev function is controlled by an analogue trigger like if it were an acceleration pedal, it requires absolutely precise timing to get it perfected.
What? I specifically mentioned the lack of a pack-in controller for DMC4. See, it’s ok for Guitar Hero to demand a special controller because it’s packaged with it. It’s not for DMC4, the game that doesn’t have a pack in, a game that could be workable with Kb/M, but it isn’t.
Here’s a game that has an excuse for not having great keyboard/mouse controls: the upcoming Street Fighter 4 PC because for the $60 the retail package costs it comes with a tailor made controller-I guess Capcom’s not just standing there with their mouths wide agape but at least trying to rectify their previous stupidity in at least some ways.
I’ve spent the whole last comment describing workable versus non-workable versus ideal, and 90% of people who play racing games don’t have racing wheels and use gamepads, 90% of people don’t use flight sticks to play Ace Combat but their Dualshocks-and you’ve just shrugged it all off. You have double standards-and you really do need those to attack the random assorted PC gamers here.
But ‘controllers were made for videogames’ part of the comment is simply laughable. They were made for very specific genres. They were made because of what traditional console games were like. And that’s why any solid FPS, RTS, RPG or a Sim controls so badly on them. But that’s not even the point of the conversation.
I remember Nero’s purchased ability that maxed his power gauge if you revved up at a precise moment during any attack move-but you didn’t need to be gentle in the slightest bit, you just jammed it in 100% at a certain point for the result and don’t even tell me otherwise.