By Alec Meer on May 29th, 2009 at 1:11 pm.
Oh dear, the last Dragon Age Trailer we posted didn’t half cause a stink. Outrage at the Marilyn Manson soundtrack and silly sex scenes from one camp, and accusations of prudish snobbery from the other. Why… why can’t we all just get along? Sniff. Bioware seem to think similarly, their latest vid-snippet aiming square at a compromise – big, sonorous speeches paired with more heavy rawk. While I don’t think for one second that’s going to be representative of the game itself, it kind of works in this intro cinematic.
It may not be telling us that much about the game itself, but it does reinforce the idea that Bioware are trying hard to appeal to a market other than solely Baldur’s Gate die-hards. It will be fascinating to see if they have managed to incorporate any of that into yer actual game.
Also, a couple of recent videos we missed first time around. Here’s a cute one that’s simultaneously mocking and encouraging the stereotypes of the genre:
And here’s the lead designer giving – gasp! – some genuine details of the game, rather than semi-ironic posturing. A lot of talk on the morality in the game – less binary good/evil in this one and more characters with clouded motivations, apparently, a la Witcher. Hopefully that’s something Bioware can pull off, as they have been a little too reliant on a Mathematical Morality Meter in their most recent games. Also, the near-absence of Brian Manson (save for Gametrailer’s editing in of the sex clip at the end) in this one is probably telling:
Hopefully, our own John Walker will get some hands-on time with Dragon Age at E3 next week, and it will finally become clear exactly what tone and approach this thing’s taking.
So, this is the new Tim Shafer game set a world inspired by heavy metal album art?
Oh.
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I just wish they had that sort of music in the game instead of the same cliche classical, lord of the rings, conan derivatives. Or maybe they have?
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They can’t talk about Brutal Legend yet. Not until it’s on PC. Come Onnnnnn Schafer.
I’m looking forward to this, especially if they can keep their word on the morality thing. That is, on the “good writing” thing.
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This game is classic.. NOT!… This game is awesome… NOT!.. This game is finne …NOT!.. This game is ambitieus …NOT!…. soo how much this game will be delayed, and how much bandwith will be wasted in videos, wen that bandwidth could be used to buy and download the game?
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There’s a new trailer up for Mass Effect 2 as well. Is it just me, or has there been a complete lack of announcements regarding release platforms for that game?
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@Calabi–I dunno, I have mixed feelings on the issue. On one hand, I agree that something besides “epic soundrack #31″ could be interesting, though at the same time I’m not sure how much tolerance I have for people screaming at me under the guise of music. I think COD 5 actually did a good job with their sound design by interspersing period music with some metal pieces and other modern music.
So maybe something like that might be more what’s in store. Who knows. I’m sure it’ll be a very entertaining game though, as designed or in a more ironic fashion.
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At least they didn’t go the Freezepop way with even less talk and more rokk. I’ll take extra talking with my rocking, if you please. Music in game is usually tough. A High Fantasy first outing Mature-A-thon that’s supposed to be old school AND the new shit? Now that’s extra tough. I’d go with Nightwish.
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The first trailer did make me want to play the game (more), but the whole Let’s-have-a-Marilyn-Manson-song-in-the-trailer-and-then-put-the-name-of-the-song-in-text-in-the-trailer-and-oh-yeah-the-song-title-has-a-SWEAR-in-it — I don’t know. Felt like they were pushing a little too hard on the whole “badass” thing.
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I’d watch that movie.
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I think some of the most recently innovative music scores for games has been Gears of War. If I make a game I will hire their music team because playing “Mad World” in the commercial spot for the first Gears of War was amazing and then Gears of War 2 had that other cool song which I cant name for when they were getting sent into the ground. Those two songs have absolutely no place in gaming yet they were expertly used in situations which really made something amazing. I think the music score is very important and really helps with the atmosphere. Think about a shooter and the music picks up into something fast when the action gets heavy, I don’t know about you but I get that invincible feeling and lay on the trigger for some “praying and spraying” when the music kicks it up a notch.
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I feel there’s a 50/50 chance this game is either great or horrible
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I’m gonna go and play Jade Empire one of these days. I sure hope I don’t have to listen to that kind of music for the entire game.
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I still regard Manson as a blight that doesn’t belong anywhere near a marketers ‘music’ library. I suspect I’m not the only one who thinks that.
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Oooh, Blandy McBland Bland. Nothing like a clean cut white man with short dark hair to set the imagination alight!
Morality? Greyness? You called them ‘The Blight’ and ‘Darkspawn’ for crying out loud.
Didn’t we agree that Dragonlance and all that Californian RenFaire tripe was an abomination upon the world at least two decades ago and promise to never do it again?
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Just wanna point out that the song in the new trailer is Manson too, but some odd version.
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Personally I applaud any game which doesn’t feel the need to automatically put generic-orchestral stuff in. Orchestral stuff can often be amazing and perfectly suited of course, but sometimes no effort at all is put in. Compare Quake 2′s amazing soundtrack to Quake 4′s, for instance. I bet you can’t even remember Quake 4′s!
See Mirror’s Edge or Mass Effect for recent games that didn’t splurge in any old orchestral arrangement and came out the better for it. Or Half Life 2! In fact, I should stop complaining, loads of games have awesome soundtracks! But there are still plenty of examples of boring orchestral scores recently.. Empire:TW for instance. Very bland. Or Fallout 3′s – compare that to the original 2 games. They were far more distinctive in that department.
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I wouldn’t really recommend playing Jade Empire, because if you’ve played KOTOR and Mass Effect, JE will really show up how most Bioware plots are;
“Oh no, everyone’s dead! You’re the last of your kind! I suppose that makes you the Chosen One by default.
Something bad happens next week!
Go to these four places to get four different things to build that thing we need! Here is a sexy bi-curious womans to help you”
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It’s a fantasy RPG, they aren’t supposed to be innovative. And you always have some irredeemably evil faction in those games, that doesn’t mean that there can’t be areas of moral greyness in the game.
*sigh*
People complain about everything these days.
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Its a shame Bioware and Obsidian split up.
Its generally like this :
Bioware knows how to code a great game with average story.
and Obsidian knows how to Make a great story but dont have a clue about coding
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I’m mad for the orchestral stuff. Epic music such as Morrowind’s theme is one of the things I most enjoy about fantasy games.
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Since when weren’t fantasy RPG’s supposed to be innovative? I for one am glad the genre has evolved a little bit since the 80′s. And evolving a bit *more* surely wouldn’t hurt.
Which isn’t to say anything about Dragon Age (which at least ditches the most tired cliches about the setting), but claiming that “fantasy RPG’s shouldn’t innovate” is just silly imo.
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Oh my god, the previous Manson trailer wasn’t actually a joke?
This is bad. Bad bad bad. Oh this is bad. All my hopes for the story have sunk.
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Whilst Bioware were and remain great devs, I am of the opinion that their morality options have remained far too clearly “Good choice/Neutral Choice/Bad Choice” for too long, and their plots are somewhat samey. They tell them well but they aren’t at base that good.
I have high hopes for this game, but the jury is still very much out regarding Bioware’s current direction in my opinion.
I do cringe a little at all this “Darkspawn” and “Blight” stuff. I mean you can’t get all that much more generically fantasy can you?
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. For some reason this fills me with an inescapable feeling of meh.
More important news: Keiron Gillen has just been announced as the new assistant in Dr Who:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8073734.stm
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I’m sorry but this game just looks crap. I find nothing about it remotely interesting, and the links to a ‘spiritual successor’ of Baldur’s Gate vaporised with a quick trip and rummage around on their forums. It will no doubt be wildly popular for all the wrong reasons.
Also Bioware’s marketing department needs to shoot themselves, as I’ve never seen such a dire campaign before, nearly every piece of footage has no new content, it’s beyond a joke now, it’s been going on for almost a year. :/ Each time I watch a trailer, I keep hoping for something new and instead see the same things I’ve seen the last 10 times, AGAIN!
*headdesk*
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i think its really funny how Bioware went out there with the idea of making an new “unique” and “fresh” franchise and ended up making the most cliched, stereotypical and generic “fantasy” game ive ever seen
it took them months or maybe years to come out with “undead army attacks the tolkieneske free world”, elves, dwarves and the same crap we have seen in medieval rpgs a few hundred thousand times
at least with Mass Effect they sort of “tried” not to clone star wars (didnt succeed tho) but at least the gameplay was different from kotor
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“soo how much this game will be delayed, and how much bandwith will be wasted in videos, wen that bandwidth could be used to buy and download the game?”
That’s a really surreal comment.
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Note to EA/Bioware, this new marketing is awful. This was one of the top games I was looking forward to this year. It was a day one purchase for me, possibly even a pre-order. Now, it’s become a “wait and see” game because I have to be sure that the game doesn’t resemble the gawd-awful marketing as much as I fear it does before I plop down my $50.
Perhaps you think that you’re expanding into a new customer base with this new marketing, but you’re doing so at the expense of the customers that you already had lining up for this game.
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@skizelo
Maybe if more than three people had bought Psychonauts, Schafer might feel more kindly towards publishing on our favoured platform…
Just a thought.
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holy crap, i just noticed the date at the end of the first video, end of october (+delays) wth, theyve been hyping it so much i thought it was coming out on june-july, do they really expect to retain interest in this crap for 6+ months with Manson songs and teasers ? even worse with all the games releasing next month DA is going to get buried
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Looks fine to me. I don’t really care what direction the PR people are taking for advertisement music as long as everything we see regarding the game itself looks ok and I think it does. Except for that sex scene, that looked naff as hell and that’s the only thing that’s really bugging me but they said all that stuff was optional so hopefully I can pretend my characters a prude and play the game without seeing any bad sex scenes.
@ Bohan: I’m glad I’m not the only one who misread that anouncement.
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@bmorr: Psychonauts was an Xbox exclusive before it came to the PC. I’m certain the PC sales outnumbered the Xbox sales.
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Whoo The Witcher.. Ahem
Really liked the bit where they cut to the fight playing out against white space. Very slick. You could combine Dragon Age with The Black Swan(?) in a mashup game where you have to paint the walls with ork blood to find the level exit.
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I’m hoping that this marketing campaign is mostly aimed at getting folk who don’t much play RPGs interested (you know, the kind of people who think Gears of War is the pinnacle of gaming). It’s definitely not for BioWare’s existing fans.
BioWare’ve yet to make a game that’s let me down, so I’ve got faith in them. But throwing a bone in the direction of their extant fanbase sooner rather than later would be kinda nice.
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I’m pretty sure they use the term “high fantasy” wrong. This is definitely high fantasy. They just want to say they aren’t high fantasy because they want to be compared to George R.R. Martin. But sorry, you are definitely high fantasy if you have elves and demons and that much magic.
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The Hulkster wishes there wer fantasy games without the tired old “elves, dwarves, hobbits, orcs, and undead” thing that’s been going on ever since Tolkien wrote his trilogy
IN MY OPINION it should either be all humans or humans + non-human species that actually look the part.
HULK HOGAN IS GONNA BREAK SOME ELF’S LEGS IF THIS KEEPS UP, BROTHER!
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Did anyone else notice how Bioware just capitalized the word as “DarkSpawn”? I mean…seriously?
Hello, Bioware! The ’80s called, they want their adolescent death-metal name back.
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@Hulk Hogan: I’m shaking, I’m shaking! D:
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On the plus side, the orcs actually look pretty decent.
I think I’ll be getting this (if my computer can handle a demo or such) in any case. More complex grey-area choices are always exciting.
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What are Bioware gonna do when the Hulkster’s 24-inch pythons go wild over… them?!?!
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@bmorr
Pretty damn sure it isn’t Schafer’s choice.
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“I just wish they had that sort of music in the game instead of the same cliche classical, lord of the rings, conan derivatives.”
that would be like drinking from a punch bowl with a human turd floating in it
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If this turns out to be not rubbish I will be pleasantly surprised but mainly surprised.
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I think it is easy to look at out of context clips and just immediately jump to certain conclusions. Granted, I’m not a huge fan of the whole rock music + blood + sex advertising, but more than anything I think they’re trying to make a point. If I thought that it in any way reflected what the game will be as a whole, I would never be excited for it. I just don’t think that’s the case, I think there will be a wide variety of topics in the game, and if you remember up until that video posted everyone was complaining about how they didn’t just want another sugar coated high fantasy affair (assuming Dragon Age would be). Now they show the video and everyone is complaining about how the trailer doesn’t fit and this “fantasy” business is getting sullied. I say… make up your mind. Thankfully, we can all see what it will be some time in October, and I’m going to bet on this being a lot more diversified than any previous BioWare games, and not just a rock n roll blood bath to try and over correct the “morality” issue.
Speaking on that morality, it also seems like they have an understanding of “gray”. Sure, the demons and the spawn are naturally evil, no doubt about that, even the lead designer didn’t even bother to try and refute that fact. That doesn’t mean everyone is either good or evil, and that there aren’t other motivations and varied levels of black, white and gray. I’m thinking there could be a sort of Machiavellian theme throughout the game, that you have a role as a Gray Warden to create this army to defeat the arch demon, but it is how you go about that, what corners you choose to cut, who you choose to save and how, that will create the gray areas in the game.
Just speculating though. As are we all.
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Bioware, E3 2009:
Bioware present their advanced AI RPG generating device which accepts the parameters genre, decade, clichee density and degree of sexual polymorphy. They demonstrate how both Mass Effect and Dragon Age were both generated with the device. Decade parameter selection appears to be a bit buggy and stuck somewhere in the 80s.
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If Bioware want to target my market they could make a Rock, Paper, Shotgun exclusive trailer focussing on the inventory management system featuring the music of Bettie Serveert.
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I think the music is one reason why I prefer some eastern rpgs over the west. They at least recognise that the music is an important part of it and try to make it stand out. They dont pay too much heed to keeping the music strictly within one particular genre.
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how can you take the clips out of context when they are being released by Bioware themselves ? its not like someone cut the worst parts of a trailer and released them with a random music, those are THE OFFICIAL ones
@Sagan: they said DA is “dark fantasy” which is nothing like those pussified “high fantasy” settings because, you know, darker and grittier was “in” a few years ago when they started development and they are still running behind the bandwagon
@Calabi: thats because they have clearer objectives when they make a game, they create worlds, characters and events always tweaking the mood with music, just like good movies do (sometimes they fail spectacularly tho in a “what do you mean its not awesome?” and “im going to take this chip…. and eat it!! *300 like dramatic music playing on the bg*” way), western games only care to run behind trends and bandwagons, they dont really know how to use the media (or they just dont want to and rather playing it safe)
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@Calabi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbvPVoVicok&feature=related
West > East
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I disable music in most games, because music break my inmersion. I love good music.. on some areas, like a load menu, or .. why not? a video. But once in-game, I want to be there, not here.
Theres a guy somewhere game-engine programmer/sound artist, that is trying to create a world, for me, and I want to taste that. Music can get into me, and this world these guys want to show me.
Re: Jade Empire
Is a game withouth quicksaves, and the dificulty is unbalanced. I own the game, but I have never pased the “beach fight”, so I uninstalled the game there. Is probablly a game to NOT buy and NOT rent. Another console shody port. Probably the game is cool… if there where a quicksave option.
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If they just did their own generic-rokk, I wouldn’t mind. It just feels so…marketed and forced. Like most of the acts on Britain’s Got Talent.
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Tei, how could you not complete Jade Empire? It’s possibly one of the eastiest games I’ve ever played. (becoming even easier in the final bit where you can become a giant golem and rape absolutely everyone like the Vikings in 1066.
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I would say by its very definition, a “clip” is out of context. We look at these scenes of violence and sex and we say, “gee whiz, those sure are some weird things to have in a trailer Hank”, but we have no clue how they fit into the whole of the game. Hence, out of context.
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Here was what I was thinking.
First trailer- Oh god the same rawk nonsense this isn’t looking good.. /headpalm
Second trailer- Wow they went mor RPG this time, things might be looking u…oh no they used rock again oh god.
Third trailer- So you have demons but you also have grey morality how is that going to work? At leats this is much bett…oh god what is with the rock.
Please take the rock as far away as possible and do something nasty to it…please
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@Calabi: Fallout and Diablo are all about amazing non-generic ambient soundtrack. Turn the music off and all the athmosphere fells apart.
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@Jeremy: no way, they took the clips, chose the music and released a trailer, they set their own context, its like saying every shitty demo ever released doesn’t mean the game is crap because its “out of context”, oh i just love when they start screaming “its nothing like the full game!!!”, wtf are you wasting my time then ?!!?
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“Oh no, everyone’s dead! You’re the last of your kind! I suppose that makes you the Chosen One by default.
Something bad happens next week!
Go to these four places to get four different things to build that thing we need! Here is a sexy bi-curious womans to help you!”
This is sadly accurate. Funny, but sad.
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What sort of morality system do people actually want? Have we discussed this anywhere? It seems like all morality systems I’ve seen suffer from either:
a) ‘Do you want to rescue Timmy or let him die’, but if we rescue him we get a sidequest with a neat reward, making it the only sensible choice
b) ‘Good’ and ‘evil’ versions of *the same quest*, difficulty balanced against each other
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I want a morality system where I am not forced to choose between Sainthood, Baby-eating, or complete apathy.
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Context: (I’m not citing this as an insult, just to make that clear, but for the sake of my side of the argument)
the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage[or video clip], usually influencing its meaning or effect
We cannot understand the full context of any clip without knowing the before and after, and by design, clips are isolated experiences. Clips are not designed to show the game as a whole, only concepts, such as the idea that this game has a darker feel, more violence and maybe a tryst with a medieval gal. Try watching that original clip without any music, see if you still hate it, or if you just hate Marilyn Manson :)
On top of that, it isn’t like a demo at all, because that is actually a part of the game, you’re playing it; it has gameplay elements, story, music, voice acting, etc. This is a mind explosion of 27 random clips throughout the game with a Gray Warden cutting off heads followed by a random scene of a girl with granny panties on, and back to more decapitations. There is zero context for that to fit into.
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@TCM: “I want a morality system where I am not forced to choose between Sainthood, Baby-eating, or complete apathy.”
Good luck with Bioware games, then. ;)
Wrt the larger question of whether the trailer is representative, it’s worth remembering that Bioware’s PR efforts have gone off the rails in the past, too. Much of Mass Effect’s PR jiggery-pokery focused on Shepard as “Jack Bauer in space”, playing up the “extreme” approach to getting results, and that ended up being a minor and totally disposable part of the game – not the defining feature that was suggested. In other words, Mass Effect was represented for months on end as a highly cinematic and highly “extreme” innovation, when it really turned out to be another typical Bioware title – replete with typical Bioware morality and plot tropes, distinguished from past Bioware games primarily by a much more direct model of action gameplay. There were things that I liked about Mass Effect, but it was a Bioware title through and through; it wasn’t at all the totally new critter that was aggressively advertised through Bioware’s PR. I suspect we’ll discover the same phenomenon with DA:O: once the dust settles, it’ll turn out to be the same “spiritual successor to BG” that’s been billed for several years, unmistakable as a Bioware game with all that that entails, both good and bad.
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QUICK, we must mash up this new trailer with a police series theme music right NOW!
p.s. – Magnum P.I. ftw?
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Pijama: That would be awesome. We should really start mashing all kinds of music in there.
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Benny Hill theme. Do it now.
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Heh, try the first video with this music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KXhmxpnvRM
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@Jeremy: you dont get it, “they took me out of context!!” is an argument you use when somebody quotes YOU, but they cant quote THEMSELVES and then say they took THEMSELVES out of context, thats freaking stupid
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@Freudian Trip: If you’re going to make an historical metaphor, at least try to make it historically accurate. The Norman invasion was in 1066, not the Viking raids.
The marketing of this game has yet to deter me from wanting to get it ‘pon its release.
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I’m pretty sure I do get it. When did I say they took themselves out of context, because I agree, that’s fairly idiotic. I was saying that you took it out of context. Imagine if you take the Lord of the Rings series and just string together 30 seconds of random non-connected clips where Aragorn, Gandalf and Co. were cutting off heads and clobbering orcs, would that be representative of the series? It would just show that there is going to be some awesome action, but we could also be sure that there is a lot more to the series than just a string of beat downs one after the other.
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Adam: those two music clips you mention weren’t actually in the Gears’ soundtracks – only in the promos. But they were genius. Whouda thunk it, a delicate juxtaposition… onna console!
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Freudian Trip:
Heh.
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@Greg : You haven’t played the Witcher, apparently. The morale decisions there are more along the line of:
Do I help the blond Nazi Knight? His order wants to exterminate all non humans, but the guy himself is actually a pretty decent chap. He helped me slay a monster once. Or do I help the elven resistance fighters? Sure, they fight for a worthy cause – the survival of their species – but they do so by killing “innocent” humans. Also they’re a bunch of stuck up, arrogant assholes
The gameplay effect of either choice? I have no fucking clue. Helping either one of them will help me with my personal quest. Sure, there are consequences, but they will only become apparent in a few hours of gameplay.
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The Witcher has some excellent moral decisions — But grey and gray morality gets old after a while.
( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GreyAndGrayMorality )
I want good, evil, grey, light grey, dark grey, gray, light gray, dark gray, lawful, chaotic, neutral, apathetic, and omnicidal insanity to all be viable options, with completely different storylines for each flavor and combination.
This will never happen.
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@Vincent Avatar: The Normans where actually vikings. Sort of.
@Sagan: A Game of Thrones is high fantasy, even though it’s not the focus of the story. But you have your dragons, your undead, giants and high mages. And, btw it’s by far the best fantasy ever written.
@And finally. I’m pretty sure the marketing is handled by EA and not Bioware. Keeping that in mind might give you some perspective. Ffs, when i read some of the comments here, it’s like you’ve already played the game. Twice. You haven’t. You’ve seen a variation of basically the same trailer a couple of times, that contain a Marilyn Manson song. That’s it.
Cheers
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Have to agree that Jade Empire was spectacularly easy, I think I died about twice, and that only towards the end. Tei – maybe you missed some aspect of the controls?
That said, I think it was a fantastic game, brilliantly executed plot and setting. It would be my favourite post-BG Bioware game, if it wasn’t for the fact that KOTOR lets you be a Jedi. Which is far more of an influence on me than it should be.
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i don want gray, white, black. blue or red morality, i would rather a game that lets me take decisions that cannot be categorized in good, bad, right, wrong but completely change the game, i might “be taking things out of context” but so far DA seems to have cloned Darksun: SL ‘s story of “big bad army coming, go do sidequests getting factions to join you during the last battle” with the modern dumbing down addition of “if you pick option A you get 100 humans, if you pick option B you get 80 werewolves that are equivalent to 100 humans” making every decision little more than a matter of “dressing up” your allies
The Witcher was close, i found it funny how the game told you every pick you made was the wrong one, Geralt even says “what was i thinking?!”, but the end result was pretty much the same game but your allies just had different looks and speech patterns, still, the game changed quite a bit at least during the initial Acts (they probably ran out of budget by the end)
@Jeremy: i still dont understand why you defend Bioware for doing stupid trailers, if they felt we are “taking them out of context” they could just change the tone of the next trailer…. which they didn’t
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I really loved Jade Empire from start to finish. Like is said above it was never really hard, I never actaully died once other than the one part where it is scripted to happen. (Hope I didn’t spoil that for anyone but if you haven’t played it by now you’re never gonna play it lol) I really liked the part with the British guy who was blowing people away with a gun to prove he was superior lol
I don’t see anything wrong with this vidoe or the last one, I actaully really liked the last one personally. But still how is it possible to take a traler out of context? IT IS The context! If it is anyones fault that the trailer is out of context to the game it is whoever made the freaking trailer not people watching
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“Bioware are trying hard to appeal to a market other than solely Baldur’s Gate die-hards”
There’s no such a thing as appealing 2 markets. If you make less engaged players happy, the toughs will find it a superficial consoleing-oriented game.
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Off topic:
Harald of Norway attacked the north in 1066, and they were eventually beaten by Harold King of England. Shortly afterwards, William of Normandy invaded on the south coast, and the depleted English army was defeated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066
On topic:
Not a fan of this trailer, but there are other trailers which were shown earlier detailing the very BG-esque control system and combat system. Also, it’s worth visiting the Dragon Age website, because theres some other videos there that are very interesting.
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That’s not quite true Quests. Take DCS Black SHark for example. IT appears to EXTREMLY Hardcore Flightsim fans, but it also appeals to people who want to play an arcade like helicopter shoot’em with a flick of a switch in the options panel and can be both or some place in between.
Now if they could just do that with an RPG, make a swich that flips it from diablo over to Baldur’s gate ;)
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You know, I don’t remember the last time there was a trailer or whatever that showcased a game’s dialogue system. A minute and a half of, say, people talking and the effects it has.
I wonder why that is.
On the topic of Morality Metres, are people generally annoyed at the starkness of the choices involved in a good-to-evil axis, or are people instead wanting a whole plethora of choices? A Morality Cross, like out of DnD? Morality Diamond, where a blob of colour is stretched in ten different directions? A group of metres, independent of the other? Instead of a good-evil tag, you could have ruthless-compassion, or reckless-restrained, or what have you.
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@Serondal
Heh sure…
but it’s a common feature only for flight sims, a flight model is very yielding because of its own technical nature.
Sure, it’s still doable. It’d be more like the little option in Monkey Island2, where you could skip some of the intricacies of puzzles. But DA is not gonna have such a thing
I really hope the morality system works… and when i say works i mean that it’s a challenge for the player. Take Fallout, probably the best choices system ever: In it you usually had to pick which faction to join among 2 or 3, and simply help ‘em, mostly with violence and shoosting. Then there were hidden choices, subtle, non-violent, doable using the char’s own skills(steal, stealth, science etc).
-there was NO intended morality in them, if there was, morality was an attribute THE PLAYER himself gave to them according to his own point of view.
-they were HARD to guess, they were actual puzzles, find an object, use it.
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@Captain Haplo: Actually, an earlier DA:O trailer (on origin vignettes) showcased the dialog system much more heavily than any other game element. That’s the trailer that first piqued my interest, before the more recent trailers threatened to disembowel and then immolate it.
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I’d rather see the group of meters or sliders for diffrent aspects of your morality personally.
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I want to grab two elves and tie them together by their long, blond mullets into elf-chucks that I can then use to crush a hobbit/maul a dwarf/boob a tit.
Those are arbitrary morality choices I can get behind, brother!
THIS IS MUCH BETTER THEN THIS HELP/TORTURE THE PRISONER AND GAIN +10 GOOD/EVIL POINTS CRAP! GIVE HIM FOOD OR SET HIS NUTSACK ON FIRE! THIS IS SOME DEEP MORALITY PLAY STUFF HERE FOLKS!!!
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I refuse to believe this will be a worthy successor to Baldur’s Gate. Bioware lost their touch somewhere between KotOR and Jade Empire.
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This is NOT going to be the next Baldur’s Gate. FACT.
I still believe it is going to be a damn asskicking rpg though. Plus, thankfully, this trailer was seriously better than the last one.
btw, Magnum P.I. worked well, but not so much as the last trailer with 5-0. :(
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Well, keep it coming. I’m honestly enjoying this… hmmm… curious turn of events. They wanted hype, we give them the hype. Controversial all the way. Manson wasn’t a naive pick.
After the tsunami all left will be just another Bioware game. Same stuff as always with more dialog options to be mean and dark.
So, I doubt they’re trying to break the mold after all. They’re just trying to look cool with those new black eyelids, black shirts and tribal tatoos. But we know those tatoos won’t survive a shower.
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@demonarm
“So, this is the new Tim Shafer game set a world inspired by heavy metal album art?”
Thank you for seeing that.
As one person pointed out, classical used to be synonymous with fantasy, and now we’re entering into a new age! Oh no, wait, we’re not…
It’s the same old, now it’s just rock that’s been magically hodge-podged into fantasy. I’m just wondering when we’re see the rawk version of LOTRO appear, where Sam Gamgee and Bilbo Baggins end up being like Bill & Ted.
/sigh
Music should fit the scene and the feeling, it should not specifically fit the setting, and when did metal ballads become directly synonymous with fantasy? Some metal does have fantasy elements, yes, but some has steampunk too, some is cyberpunk (like Ayreon), some is slice of life, some has ethereal settings which can’t be defined so easily, some is historical, and so on, and so on.
That’s why I found Brutal Legend to be so utterly pointless, if you’re going to do a game about metal, then do a game about metal, don’t do a game in a medieval setting and then try to set it apart by saying “OMG look, guy has electric guitar that shoots electric, ZOMG!”.
Classical music is fitting for fantasy if it fits the scene and the emotion presented, just go with the music that feels right, don’t go with the music “Wot I think is synonymous of the genre!”, because that usually ends up having a disjointed effect. If metal fits a scene or the feeling of a scene, use metal by all means, but don’t use metal just because it’s fantasy.
Does anyone basically get where I’m coming from here, and why I’m so irritated by all this? It’s like saying that if you have a French detective, the only music you can use for him is cheesy French organ music, no matter what he’s saying, doing, feeling, or regardless of what’s going on.
That kind of mindset makes me facepalm and leaves me feeling like the average Angry Internet Man.
So… ROCK-LOTRO, with Frodo Bassdrums and Sam Grungy, who’s looking forward to it?
TL;DR: I hope there’s not lots of rock/metal in Dragon Age just for the sake of there being lots of rock/metal, just because it’s a medieval setting and the two are supposedly synonymous.
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Man, Bioware must’ve bled some crazy amount of talent over the years.
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@Tworak: its the rule, get too close to EA and youll start talking like a retard and soiling yourself
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“It’s the same old, now it’s just rock that’s been magically hodge-podged into fantasy. I’m just wondering when we’re see the rawk version of LOTRO appear, where Sam Gamgee and Bilbo Baggins end up being like Bill & Ted… So… ROCK-LOTRO, with Frodo Bassdrums and Sam Grungy, who’s looking forward to it?”
I’ll admit it. I giggled.
However, my mind is still set on skipping this game.
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Brutal Legend is not in a medevil setting, it is in an alternate reality.
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@Wulf
I’ve never heard of metal being synonymous with fantasy?
I think every major battle should be accompanied by this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N4ckFN96-k
It fits with the violence trailer as well.
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Also, Brütal “umlauts are cool thx” Legend will be better than this. :D
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Seconded, Pijama.
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I was all like “this is actually kinda classy.”
Then they brought back the Manson.
I just hope this isn’t reflective potential EA dickery.
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It would be interesting to seen an article about how heavy armor has evolved over the years in video games from being kind of painted directly on the texture of the character to becoming its own seperate model ect. Think of neverwinter nights how most of the armor was just part of the character’s body slightly modified and then textured diffrently or Gothic 3 or Oblivion where the armor is its own seperate model and looks almost realistic. Also the styles changed from crazy shoulder pads in WoW to sleek sexy armor we see above.
Myself I’ve always had a thing for armor that is asymmetric with a big kind of shoulder pad on one side and sleeker armor on the other maybe exposed flesh on the arm for flexibility of the sword arm. A shield that is only large on one side and smooth on the other for deflecting blows, this sort of thing. I know it doesn’t reflect reality at all times but it’s cool.
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God what shit music.
Where’s my weird folk electronica game?
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It seems to me an obvious choice for music for these trailers should be Dragon Force O.o
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After deep ponderation…
Bioware Marketing: No, seriously, drop the fucking music. It sucks.
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@theleif: The Normans will tell you they’re vikings, alright. The problem is they’ll do it in French.
@Freudian Trip: I do believe 1066 was around the decline and end of the Viking Age, actually.
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@Dorian Cornelius Jasper: Now they do. When they was given the land to protect the french coast from pirates they didn’t :)
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@theleif: Ah, but it was quite a while between being given Normandy and invading England. Long enough that the French words “boeuf” and “porc” managed to end up in the English language thanks to a certain Conqueror.
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That’s not what’s important, dear Mr. Jasper. The important question is this:
Did William the Conqueror invade England to a background music made of ROCK!?
I would like to think he did.
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@Captain Haplo: Did William the 1st rock out? Mais oui!
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And this, gentlemen, was how Hastings was won: through the power of goddamned *rock*.
So what have we learned? If anything, this game is gonna be *awesome*.
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“and when did metal ballads become directly synonymous with fantasy?”
Roughly the same time Michael Moorcock started touring with Hawkwind and penning lyrics to Blue Oyster Cult albums if I remember rightly.
Personally, I think the soundtrack should shift between interminable Muzak versions of popular hits for the grindy bits with bayou banjo sections for the talky bits. Oh, and perhaps a little Slade whenever an important character appears.
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Metal is fine and all. I mean, seriously, I LOVE metal.
But…
It’s just not working for Dragon Age.
It’s just *too* in your face, especially the Mansons, IMO, grating style.
IMO, they need something more gothic, and orchestral, while still being electronic.
All I can think of right now is Ozar Midrashim :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2RMWWBXYbs&feature=related
Start the music up first, then start the trailer up *immediately*
It’s not the best illustration of what I mean, but it still gets rid of that bad “mature” 90′s action movie vibe…
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It’s clear from the comments on Gametrailers that the “new wave” (i.e. 10 to 17yrs old folks) are flying off their chairs due to the enormous quantities of excitement they are expelling. To quote:- “everything looks sweet with mm song behind it, specially blood & gore. nice trailer.”
To be honest, hats off to the marketing department, they have “their” attention AND ours. *shrug*
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I’m going to laugh when they’re disappointed at the orchestral score, and lack of pressing O to rip people on half.
Edit:
“cooperb5656 said: Ya ;let put gay fag halo music keep it rock bitxhzz”
WHAT IS THIS I DON’T EVEN
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Basically, there is a core audience who, no matter what they say while freaking out on the internet, will buy the game simply because it is a CRPG by Bioware, and supposedely BG’s spiritual successor.
Then there’s the audience they’re milking sales from, which does not know the definition of RPG outside of “God of War”. Which is not an RPG.
It’s frigging brilliant marketing.
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“Tei, how could you not complete Jade Empire? It’s possibly one of the eastiest games I’ve ever played. (becoming even easier in the final bit where you can become a giant golem and rape absolutely everyone like the Vikings in 1066.”
I am cryiing now like a littel girl… See what you have done? *cryiing*
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Jeebus H Chris.
Crafting a soundtrack that is immersive, relevant and “Right” is easy. If the instrument exists in the setting you can use it. If it doesn’t then you can’t.
There is never an excuse for Manson.
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Kids These Days
Why does noone besides me appreciate PROPER PERIOD MUSIC and GENERIC EPIC SOUNDTRACKS! A-BLOO A-BLOO BLOO BLOO BLOO
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@Bhazor:
“Crafting a soundtrack that is immersive, relevant and ‘Right’ is easy. If the instrument exists in the setting you can use it. If it doesn’t then you can’t.”
Brilliant!
It’s not that I don’t like some metal (but honestly, Manson?) and also hearing electronic effects in a pseudo-medieval setting is just *jarring*.
Also: I do like the orchestral stuff, when it’s done well (just that it’s not, usually). Sands of Time had Rimsky-Korsakov’s Scheherezade as background music, that was killer. Earth 2150 had Stravinsky’s Rite of Spring worked into the battle themes. Actually most symphonic scores (in movies and games) owe a lot to Stravinsky, and Dvorak – obviously Star Wars but a whole load of other stuff too. If I started mentioning Beethoven or Mozart I’d be here all day.
Dueling requiems, Mozart and Verdi, now that’d be an epic soundtrack…
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Reply to cjlr
Actually that orchestral gubbins is getting right on my tit ends. It’s almost as out of place in a medieval setting as electric guitars. What I meant was proper period music like “Alasdair Mhic Colla Ghasda”.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68Vtx5q0xec
Now that isn’t the best version, Julie Fowlis could batter that vocalist, but it has all the oomph of Manson without making me want to kill myself. More importantly the song is actually a funeral march for a scottish/irish soldier who was captured after doing terrible things for what seemed like a good reason. Which I’d argue fits well with the moral greyness Bioware are aiming for.
Likewise there are some great driving scottish reels and a whole thousand years of march music, waulkin songs (rhythm driven communal songs), reels, jigs and so much more that theres really no need to go as generic as “Big orchestra”. I swear if I ever meet Howard Shore I’m going to blast his face clean through the side of a tree. However, I won’t hear anything bad about John Williams doing “big orchestra” first and also for the Indiana Jones flourish and the Imperial March.
I’m not saying hard rawk should be destroyed I’m just saying everything in context. If they insist on using such a traditional, or cliched or tired if you prefer, setting then they could at least try to get it right. Manson and his ilk would be perfectly acceptable if, for example, this game was set in a 12 year olds head after being told off .
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Period music sounds horrible unless you’re the type of guy who goes to Ren Faires and drinks crappy home made beer.
The whole “I’m trying to be like the LoTR movie and failing” thing is bad enough. You don’t need SCA fatties strumming on lutes making it even more unbearable.
Hulk Hogan says: Bring on the eletric guitar, anything to break fantasy out of the lame and uncool prison of it’s own making.
YOU HEAR THAT PERIOD MUSIC FATTIES! THE HULKSTER’S GONNA GO MEDIEVAL ON YOUR ASSES! I PUT ON MY ROBE AND WIZARD HAT AND CAST A LEVEL 100000000+ PILEDRIVER ON LAMOLASS THE ELFEN RANGER!
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People moaning about what music goes and what goes not with fantasy … should watch themselves some Knight’s Tale. srsly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMpJelQc86Q
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Reply to Hulk Hogan
I can only say is this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2ndIhkA_ss
and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIc4VHxU7iM
(He may have a point, certainly lutes can hump the right off. Not so much for the way they sound but because of the kind of people who play them.)
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@Bhazor: Actually that orchestral gubbins is getting right on my tit ends. It’s almost as out of place in a medieval setting as electric guitars. What I meant was proper period music like “Alasdair Mhic Colla Ghasda”
Oh, I know… It’s just that it was actually decent pieces, as opposed to some generic mess somebody tossed together. Still bizarre thematically, but it’s only one step removed from something approaching appropriate, instead of two.
Actual medieval music, though, sounds just plain weird to modern ears most of the time, myself included. Plus it’s that much more work that most people obviously can’t be arsed.
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My favorite instance of music in games is almost definitely the World of Warcraft. Give it as much flak as you like, those people at Blizzard can _compose a freaking score_.
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@ sigma
yeh the music in wow was amazing, i can hardly listen to the barrens music now when i hear it because the nostalgia comes back so bad, almost makes me want to cry:) it opens up the wow addict part of my brain. The music in that lvl 70-80 place with the ogres was awesome too, i quite often get the urge to play it whenever i pick up a guitar. ( a string 0 2 4 d string 0 then maybe d string 0 2 a string 4) if anyone wants to play it)
much better than this marilyn manson crap for an rpg
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@everyone
The Dominions 3 soundtrack
That’s *good* period music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvT7ocjzr6s
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You definitely don’t need lutes and harps to make good music appropriate to the setting, especially since that sort of music is usually shit. You just need something more suitable in evoking the feeling of that setting. Classical instrumental pieces usually work, despite still being anachronistic, because they’re far enough removed from the modern era, and work on the emotions at such a basic level. Done right, it can be incredibly moving on a very basic level.
Marilyn Manson doesn’t. It’s got far too many attachments to the present and certain modern concepts; angry youth, disenfranchisement, industrialisation, electricity. It comes off as far too jarring.
I admit to liking Jeremy Soule’s stuff, but I suppose game music is different thing to trailer music.
Playing the first video with no sound, so I couldn’t hear the guy spouting vaguely chivalric nonsense and the music, I was struck by how the thing looked like a tribute to the underdog man-with-no-name or hyper-skilled-ronin of westerns and Japanese film, and I can’t help but cringe again at the bland setting. I’m drugged up on cold medicine right now and to my addled mind, some odd blend of industrial, western and Quentin Tarrantino aesthetic would have been neat.
As it stands, I think this is a title to pick up in a bargain. It looks like something I’ve played before. Many times before, actually.
Edit: Now that I think of it, Assassin’s Creed’s Lonely Souls trailer worked surprisingly well. I suppose the difference here is that it fitted the mood and also looked and sounded quite elegant – it looked more like a music trailer than a game trailer.
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Orchestral/classical music can, and will, work for any setting, if pulled off correctly.
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i’ll probably get a lot of heat for this, but i kinda liked POP:Warrior Within’s game music and trailers, and didnt mind the whole emo art style, they used a very similar vibe to DA’s trailers and manage to pull it off, WW trailers had personality unlike DA ones, they didn’t feel like a shameless attempt to appeal to those that will not be interested in a baldur’s gate lookalike anyway
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Reply to Ashurbanipal
Oh I hate songs about electricity and industrialisation.
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I didn’t say the songs were about electricity or industrialisation. I said that songs like that contain associations to those things. Which is unavoidable when using crunchy electric guitars.
I could perhaps have been clearer.
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@Ash
Not so, you can have your electrics and still have that earthy, folk feel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTnq0goeR04&feature=related
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I think that orchestral music is accepted because we are used to the Wagnerian opera style of music being used in many films. It’s not so long ago that Easy Rider was seen as breaking all the rules. Not that Dragon Age is the Easy Rider of video games or anything. The Knights Tale film used Queen music well but that was only based on Chaucer which of course is not as important as the works of the great G.R.R. Martin.
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I’m surprised the 10-17 set even know who MM is. MM was pretty much played out within a year or so of me finishing High School (’99).
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@Z
ANGRYFACE(!) music never goes outta style, and in all fairness, Manson *is* one of the better ANGRYFACE artists.
I mean, the Nightmare Before Christmas covers were pretty good…
Really, this *could* be worse – they could’ve picked Disturbed.
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On the one hand I can see what they were trying to do by putting in that sex scene.
I was too afraid to look at the other hand.
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thanks for sharing….
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thanks for sharing
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