There has been, it seems, something of a fuss over the announcement from Valve that they’re releasing a sequel to Left 4 Dead this November. The main point of contention has been that many were expecting more new content to be added to the original game, rather than appearing in the form of a full price sequel. This was underlined when an article on VideoGamer was rediscovered in which Valve boss Gabe Newell stated, “So we’ll do the same thing with Left 4 Dead where we’ll have the initial release and then we’ll release more movies, more characters, more weapons, unlockables, achievements, because that’s the way you continue to grow a community over time.”
We spoke to Valve’s VP of marketing, Doug Lombardi, to ask him about the player response. He talks to us about the reasons why L4D2 is a full sequel, why gamers should wait to find out more about the game before making up their minds, and how there are definitely still plans for the original Left 4 Dead.
RPS: The main point of contention has been that a while back there was a statement from Gabe Newell given to VideoGamer in which he said there were plans to add more characters, unlockables, weapons and achievements to the original Left 4 Dead.
Doug Lombardi: So, we’ve made a number of releases on the PC, and we made a pretty big release on the 360 in terms of the DLC, and we were able to get out for free which I thought would pretty cool, and it was not an easy thing to pull off. Beyond that, we plan to continue updating Left 4 Dead. We’re not done with that title, it’s not over. The SDK stuff just came out. I think we mentioned to RPS that if you’re using the SDK and making maps for it, those will work for L4D2 as well. We are trying to keep the community together – we’re going to be doing more stuff about keeping the community together as we get closer to launch.
I think the short answer is: trust us a little bit. We’ve been pretty good over the years, even with L4D going back just a few months, about supporting games post-launch. Gabe’s always talking about providing entertainment as a service – it’s not about making a game any more. That’s one point of it.
The other point is, we didn’t sit down and say, “We need to ship a sequel next for next Christmas, what features do we need?” That wasn’t the way it happened, that’s not the way Valve works. What did happen was, the team sat down and said, “We’ve got a bunch of ideas of stuff we want to do.” People were really fired up when the game was finished, and there was a lot of feedback and ideas that came from watching people play – on the scale of millions of people, as opposed to hundreds of people that we went through during the playtesting sessions. So we put a lot of those things on the board and said, “What can we do quickly? What’s going to take more time? What’s the best way to get stuff out to customers?” And part of that plan ended up with L4D2, with things like changing the way the finales worked, introducing some new Survivors, giving new dialogue, telling more about the story, introducing new Specials. We said, “Wow, that makes for a nice sequel.” And then there was the stuff in the Survival Pack which makes for a nice DLC. And what we’d like to do is release a great game, provide lots of entertainment-as-a-service type of features, whether they’re technical updates or whether it’s the Survival Pack, and then also deliver more.
RPS: So how did the sequel come about?
DL: One of the biggest pieces of feedback we got after the game came out, and even after the Survival Pack, was: this is all really great, I loved it, but I want a bunch more campaigns, I want more content. In a sense, L4D2 is a response to what players were asking for after the first one shipped. That’s really how it came about. I think if folks spot us a bit more time, they may see where we’re going with all this. The more they learn about how much there is in L4D2… I mean, twenty new weapons isn’t DLC! Three new Specials, and twenty weapons, and five new campaigns: that starts to feel like a sequel. I think as more gets unveiled as we go from E3 to Comic Con and PAX, and show the game in places where the public can play, and then when the demo comes out a couple of weeks before launch, I think people will get where we’re going, and hopefully don’t think that we’ve turned into some sort of opportunist cow milkers.
RPS: Do you wonder whether an aspect of it is that it’s been so quick? Do you think if you’d waited another six or eight months, people might have responded better?
DL: Maybe, maybe. But two years from now though, would you look back and say that was better? Like I say, give it some time: quick decisions aren’t usually the best ones. I would say that may have been part of it, people may have felt differently about it had it taken longer to produce it. The other thing is, it’s something new for Valve. Valve doesn’t have a reputation for shipping quick sequels! So it’s something different. We had similar reactions when we announced The Orange Box. There were a lot of people who thought, “It’s not going to be worth fifty dollars, all these games are really tiny,” and then by the time the game came out the review said, “The best value in gaming.” Again, I would say, let us tell more of the story before people make their final judgement. And then if they say we’re f’d, then that’s fair. [laughs]
RPS: Do you think part of the problem might have been that the Survival Pack felt like it was finishing the first game. When there were two versus campaigns that weren’t in there, it might have felt like the Survival Pack completed the game rather than added to it.
DL: Maybe. It’s hard to say, I haven’t sat down and had a calm, reasonable dialogue with a group of people that have had [this week's] reaction yet. I’ve been busy keeping it a secret, then we just announced it a couple of days ago. I also want to get more informations, I want to hear more of what their story is and what they’re reacting to, so I can understand it better, and I’m sure Gabe feels the same way. We’ll see what is the genesis of why folks are having this reaction to it. And that [the Survival Pack] might have been part of it as well, but it’s definitely not the case that we’re closing the book on L4D and saying, “Next time you get anything it’s when the sequel comes out.”
RPS: So is there any chance of new content like new maps and new campaigns in the original L4D?
DL: Yeah, there’s certainly a chance of that, and we’re not announcing any of the specifics of that today. Like I say, stay tuned, there’s more coming, there’s more information we’re going to talk about for the sequel, there’s more content coming for Left 4 Dead in the fairly near term, that I think will sort of add to this picture and hopefully change some people’s opinions of what’s happening right now.
Thanks to Doug Lombardi for taking time out of a crazed E3 schedule to talk to us. The RPS hivemind realises people are very passionate about this subject, but remains confident that the discussion below will not make us frown.
Related Stories:
I’m not venturing to guess how much this will or won’t hurt Valve, I was just explaining the basics to the “businesses can totally do whatever they feel like, and you should never pay attention to their clearly, openly stated business plan when making your purchasing decisions, no matter how farcically self-destructive it would be for them to mislead you, or how good a reputation they’ve earned in the past” crowd (whadda fun bunch!). As I was illustrating above, in day to day life we depend on most other actors in this big dumb market being rational — if they (ie, Valve) do something irrational (ie, throwing away some of the cachet they had earned with what is an extremely fragile customer base), it doesn’t mean we’re fools — sure, we’ve lost a little money in the short-term, but Valve have risked a lot more.
(And Meat Circus’ remark is pretty much the conclusion if we follow Kieron’s train of thought…)
@James T: My point is that valve making a most likely very commercially successful sequel to a very commercially successful game, instead of supplying free content really isn’t “farcically self-destructive”.
Maybe if they announced they were no longer making video games because they wanted to make, oh I don’t know, cheese instead, I would agree with you.
It’s perfectly rational for valve to do this, and I don’t think it was too much to ask for people to keep that in mind when purchasing a game they perceive as being half finished.
You’re only thinking in terms of dollars. I’ve already explained how trust is an asset.
Because when Valve stated they would be continuing extra content support for L4D, they said they would be delivering the same kind of support they were already delivering for TF2. It was a direct comparison between the post-release support of the two games, and Valve made that statement.
Valve have already said that this is the reason the 360 DLC unlocks for TF2 is taking longer than originally anticipated. With consoles, unlike Steam-hosted PC content, the bulk of the game exists on the disc as untouchable data. L4D2 as DLC means you can’t reverse-engineer anything on the L4D 360 disc to help all the weapons and character classes co-exist within the 512MB RAM limitation. However, if they make L4D2 a separate disc they could create new versions of the assets in L4D optimised specifically to co-exist with all the new content in L4D2.
My issue is with the pricing. If L4D2 is a genuine step-up from L4D then I might just buy it, but if it’s basically an expansion pack priced as a full-price game I won’t.
20 maps? not sure how you came up with that.
Its a rip frankly. its been out a year – valve in idiotic decisions shocker. (TF2 content is a good example, its a great thing, shame the didnt wait till it was all implemented, hate joining servers to find 14890714359725820 scouts cause the scout pack just got released, and they still aint given shit to my fav char).
crap exicution.
@James T:
And I have already stated that I don’t think this will particularly affect the public perception of or trust for Valve.
@Theo:
They executed the TF2 content updates brilliantly, even if it wasn’t to your liking. Each update gave them a big boost in their sales. If they had released it all at once, the update would:
a): Still not be out.
b): Not have sold as many copies as the staggered updates.
Fair point I guess, it’s not like anyone’s really taken offense…
(Theo didn’t suggest releasing it all as one patch. Having the new weapons be immediately available would eliminate practically every TF2 ’social’ problem the patches cause (save the inevitable class-preference for awhile), but this isn’t the thread for that one…)
@James T:
A small and vocal minority does not equal Valve’s entire audience. The vast majority of people who will make up the bulk of this game’s sales don’t give a shit either way.
Edit: In any case, I should be revising for the Maths A-Level exam I have this afternoon, and am therefore done with this conversation.
@KG
ehh I said not including the new maps.
@Malagate
I’ve seen no voice acting to speak of, I’ve heard promise of it, but I’ve heard promise of a lot of things, if the scripting is anything like left 4 deads then it could be done in under a week by a bunch of amateurs, if it’s more comprehensive as promised then yeah it’d take more work but i was only talking about things they’ve actually shown.
@Crispy: RAM? are u sure? I think is the download filesize. I think that Microsoft want to artificially top that download, maybe to stop people from serving whole full AAA games as DLC. Because Microsoft pay for the bandwith, and probably Microsoft is in bed with people that don’t like DLC’s.
But I could be wrong.
My point was always that I have come to rely and expect Valve to provide good post-release support for their games. TF2 was a prime example, but they kept up with CS and DoD:S for a good amount of time too, even OBing DoD (although I’m not entirley sure how I feel about what that meant for the game, seeing as every part of the Orange Box was distinctly more “gamey” than what came before). With what they seem to be doing with L4D and L4D2 undermines that somewhat and makes me slightly less likley to send my money their way again. Of course, I enjoyed L4D, even if the time it took to make Dead Air/Death Toll vs compatible (and not even do that good a job of it – there are some places the zombies really should be able to go but can’t) was a little ridiculous. L4D2 sounds like it should fix a lot of what was wrong with (cresendo events principally) L4D. That’s great, and depending on how good it looks I may well buy it. But with L4D I though – hmm, not sure it is really worth what they are asking and only got it when I found it heavily discounted at play. With Valve having done little to expand the value post-launch, next time I am unsure as to the value, I may decide to pass up their products (although seeing as I own almost everything Valve have done to date, or even subcontracted out, this is perhaps a little unlikley).
On the plus side, Valve have show remarkable willing in the past to learn from their mistakes and listen to players. Think of the creation of HL2:DM in response to player response, or the reviewing of the way they do TF2 unlockables (even if they haven’t got that right yet).
As for Valve flops – is everything forgetting CS:CZ? I know it was all outsourced, but they presided over that and I seem to recall it rather panning critically and commercially.
Maybe this isn’t the place for it, but I asked previously what people thought of the idea of none-MMO subscription games. Say an FPS (or an RPG) with no purchase fee, a nominal fee (something around $5) and a gaurantee of regular content updates. Would people pay for this? Would it work as a business plan?
Edit: I just realised what a rambaling, steam-of-conciousness post this was guys. Sorry.
@The Sombrero Kid:
Ehm, what?
Damn it, I should be learning the cosine rule.
Theo: Four campaigns, 5 parts per campaign, 1 part = 1 individual .bsp file = 20 maps.
Stays at 20 if you count the vs and survival variants as the same maps (because they are, though they have various tweaks for their respective gamemodes, like the survival ones are much smaller). 21 if you include the Lighthouse survival map.
If you consider that each map can go on for as long as a single game of TF2, depending on gametype and difficulty, then it technically has more maps than TF2. It doesn’t work out quite like that in perception (only 4 campaigns makes it seem smaller than it is), but you get the idea.
I’m a little bit disappointed by the announcement in a way, because I expected them to work on the original game a bit more; I expected a longer life to it like other multiplayer games. But if we’re perfectly honest the experience was starting to get a bit stale. It just doesn’t seem to carry as well as other MP games. It might by the coop element, or that its strongest part is (IMO) the campaigns, which have low replayability.
And its initial reception was good enough to warrant either more work on the original game or work on a sequel. If there’s way more in L4D2 then I’ll be happy with the sequel option, since the additions to the original game so far…like others have said they really did feel like they were just adding icing to the original cake. Still tastes like the same cake though, past the icing, and icing on its own (which is basically what we got) isn’t quite the same.
I all for a new, tastier cake, with icing included at sale.
What would be nice, though, is if they ported all the L4D1 maps into L4D2 (maybe if you own it, preferably if you dont). Because they’re not bad campaigns, and it’d suck having to go between the two games too much.
Honestly, how thick do you have to be not to understand by now that Valve is not abandoning Left 4 Dead?
Anyone here who doesn’t understand that in a constantly changing business enviroment with many variables not all promises can be kept doesn’t understand the first thing about business and should just go cry out all their “But you promised!” tears now.
@TheSombreroKid, there are gameplay videos out there on gametrailers, go find them and watch them. You will hear voice acting, and the southern accents with mannerisms. Whether or not dialogue will change significantly over the course of the campaigns, due to survivors becoming more familiar with each other, that of course won’t be discernable until we get the full game, but from what I’ve seen and heard it’s been pretty good.
I am against the release of games in XMax. It may make sense for the publishers, because there are more buyers out here, so more sales. But for “hardcore” people is a pain. We, the hardcore, can buy 1 game ever 2 months, maybe every 3 or 1 (based on our budget). If the publishers release 20 games in one month (December), we want to buy 20 games, but we have to skip 19 of these good games.
These damn casuals!.. why these people buy in masses in december? distort the market!. Withouth these casuals, L4D and Dragon Age would have been release already, probably. And Dragon Age will be release wen enough Quick Time Events and unnecessary menu and unskippable videos are added.
@ Malagete “You will hear voice acting, and the southern accents with mannerisms.”. But how useful is a localism like that thing, on a game that will ship worldwide. Will the game been localized here in spain so the characters have a andaluz accent? You probably don’t know what is a andaluz, and I don’t know what is a “southern usa” guy. Are we making games for USA only now?. Maybe this new setting is not as good as the other one. As the original characters are universal, but if this one are based on USA localism, the “point” of these characters will be “lost in translation”.
Death to gamers! They don’t deserve to live.
@Boo Hoo Hoo:
Valve has *already* abandoned Left4Dead. There’s no “will” about it.
@Malagate
just because it was good doesn’t mean it took a very long time to make.
@Tei:
Comparing an andalucian accent to a southern USA accent isn’t helpful. An andaluz accent and setting has completely different connotations, and I don’t expect the spanish language version of this game to feature flamenco zombies.
Also, in left4dead, the characters had more northern accents. This is more universal?
@ Daniel
I think he’s talking about the difference between ‘taught’ Spanish and Spanish with a funny accent. Not being Spanish myself it’s difficult to say but a comparable UK example would be Queens English as opposed to the south west accents. He’s talking about getting the difference in atmosphere, attitude and temperament of the characters not changing the setting…
With respect to the northern accents being more universal:
Everyone is more familiar with the “mid-atlantic” and northern accents because of Hollywood…the heavier or more stylised accents from the south feature a lot less in TV and film.
L4D2 will not flop.
@Daniel: I don’t understand your point. Anyway, I don’t see L4D1 to be anything about “northern people”. Or to me these people look “normal”. Maybe is because I am northern too.
Random agrement: Is true, seems there are “southern” and “northern” on all countrys. Confirmed for Spain, Germany and USA. No idea about UK, probably is more complex on UK.
Random disagrement: If the point of L4D2 is anything like “rednecks” or “buba & forrest gump”, I fear I will totally miss the point. Because I know nothing about south usa. It will probably be interesting the localization of this game to other cultures, or maybe since is hard, will not even tryiing.
SE is the North. Everywhere else is the South.
KG
To me it seems it really should be an expansion pack, not a sequel. Stand-alone expansion even.
@T.S.K., I didn’t say it took a long time to make, I said it was not easy to make it good ;) the fact that it’s good shows that they worked hard to make a good job of it. Time taken is meaningless, just because one can make something good in a short time doesn’t mean it’s worth less than something that took a long time to make, i.e. Daikatana; Duke Nukem Forever.
As a gamer, I want game play–changing weather effects are nice, and new maps and weapons are great; but game play is what ultimately sells. I have as much faith in a new version of The Director to improve game play as I do for special effects to make an Oscar-winning movie.
Provide a means for gamers to be creative and give them ways to enjoy that–examples: more interaction with the excellent physics engine (move furniture to build barricades/block or change paths on the fly/weld doors)–i.e. non-linear game play. L4D is notably lacking in this area, and I fail to see how L4D2’s new content will provide that. Though Counter-Strike: Source hasn’t had new content (other than mods and custom maps) for years now, it’s still very popular–why? Because its game play works. L4D is fun *if* you have loads of friends who are serious about the game and are constantly playing, allowing you to actually complete levels together. If not, you’re stuck with random people from the ‘net who will most likely either rage quit on you, or make you so frustrated you’ll rage quit yourself. Bottom line: L4D has a lot of potential, but needs a lot of work. Valve has yet to illustrate that they’ve improved game play in L4D2 to the point that it’s as much fun as TF2 or CSS. Until that happens, I’ll stick to what I have, and try to wash out the bad taste their recents announcements have left in my mouth.
Lots of planets have a North.
THIS JUST IN
BUSINESS ACTS LIKE A BUSINESS
INTERNET SHOCKED AND APPALLED
humm….
@Psycopomp – try reading James Ts posts above, to see why you aren’t making a lot of sense (also perhaps one of my posts where I explain how Valves previous behavious has effected my purchasing in the past).
Or you know, continue going “LALALA, you are all just angry that Valve aren’t your slaves! You AIM should be shot! I am so much better than all that!”
Daddy Valve subsidized a Barbie-bike every year for your birthdays and gave you tassels for Christmas, did he? Last Christmas daddy didn’t get you tassels so you’re going to bitch about your next bike?
Poor, poor babies. :( Your biggest problem is that Valve has been too nice. They should have been charging a token fee for half of their DLC, and now you’re just plain spoiled.
A full sequel is more preferable to DLC that lets Zoey throw flammable teddy bears on the carnival map, or whatever small incremental crap they put in.
Ignore them Valve–they’re all the rage-quitters anyway.
If this is true and L4D2 isnt a joke why would you buy it when you also know that 364 days later then L4D3 will be coming out with “10 More” new weapons and a special infected suggested on the forums by a non-professional and includes a whopping 5 maps which over the last year developing a new game instead of providing support for their RELEASED game.
The frustrating part is because of the promises made and now broken, I would care a helluva lot less if they hadn’t promised the stars…
Hpnestly if they are planning on releasing in November this means some of those “new” maps could have been released in a DLC that came before the “Survivor” pack which gave us a complete game, and you can also see the team gave up on their effort for that as their changes to the 2 newer old versus maps are disgusting compared to no mercy for map construction, it seems like their attention wasn’t on really completing L4D as having us beta for this L4d2 release.
Tei: making the game take place in a locale with a specific culture is an artistic choice. The last thing they should do is make the game more generic because some people won’t “get it.” If anything you should look forward to the chance to experience something new rather than complain.
I miss Bioshock & piracy discussions.
Otters are ACE!!
Also it would be super super savage if L4D2 was maybe released with HL Ep.3 and I don’t know something else in the next Orange (or what ever colour is next) box!
That would be as ace as a bucket load of otters!!!
After reading this entire thread I can see that RPS has expertly pruned it down to genuine customers who are disappointed and nonsensical valve supporters. Why do you act so nasty to these people and then expect them to see your point of view? It’s easier to catch flies with honey than it is with vinegar, they always say.
On a side note, I’d like to see valve implement a feature that (crosses self) EA created for the Rockband games – for the consoles. If you own Rockband 1 and purchase Rockband 2, there is a feature to copy almost all of the tracks (58 out of 55 or something) into your Rockband 2 by simply inserting a code that comes with the second game, also all content downloads are fully compatible.
I do realise the MASSIVE difference between some tracks for a party game and full campaigns for a co-op survival horror, but seeing as EA is Valves console publisher, I can always hope they’ll suprise us again. Otherwise I might not buy this Valve release. (and that is a shocker)
I read the first 75% of this long comment list and didn’t see this mentioned.
L4D2 craps on any one who spent time growing the community around L4D1. By this I mean people who paid for servers, people who played on L4D competition ladders and people who spent time modding the game. (16 man L4D is pretty fun :) ) I’ve paid for a server since day 1 so that my fiends and I would have a reliable place to play and from that grew a TWL team. We’ve put time and money into a game that is soon going to be obsolete because no one is going to buy L4D1 when L4D2 which actually seems like a complete game is sitting there beside it. L4D competition is just now gaining speed and I fear this announcement may stifle that effort.
L4D2 Looks like a more complete game, (this doesn’t mean they shouldn’t release DLC for it along the way to convince new blood to join in like TF2) and is probably worth the $50 price tag, much more so than L4D1. L4D1 came with promises that have been left unfulfilled and this “sequel” renders any effort to grow a community around the original seem worthless.
I might as well drop from the TWL ladder in L4D1 and just wait til 2 comes out at this point. I’ll take my server with me ( no not really I like the game and want to keep supporting it in hopes that the “wait and see” pays off). If enough server admins move on to L4D2 the first one will completely die off. I know I won’t pay for two servers for the same game.
I have high hopes that this will be made right in the coming months. In the podcast it was mentioned that people who buy L4D2 will get L4D1 content. This will help keep L4D1 alive but at the same time these people pay $50 and get both so why shouldn’t L4D1 owners at least get L4D2 at a discount. (They may no pricing structure has been announced).
Having a single server support both games would also do a lot to keep the community together.
People telling those of us with some concerns to shut up and sit down does no good. Now is the perfect time to clearly voice concerns in hopes that they will be addressed for everyone.
All my hopes for the “wait and see” end up with it being two identical games with slightly different content both unfortunately being full price game when really the first, by valves own admissions, isn’t as complete as the second.
(This sounds a lot like pokemon red and blue. Blue FTW!)
Like many I am glad to see a sequel coming because it looks awesome but upset that promises made pertaining to the original appear to have been left by the wayside. “wait and see” isn’t enough to quench my fears just yet but I do think Valve will make this right for the most part.
Visit YouTube, and check out the new trailer and video clips. You’ll see a new trailer, new characters, new weapons, and new maps, and oh yes, you’ll see new dead people…and more blood. You will not see an amazing new game; just more of the same.
Telos, did you buy a life-time server or do you pay a monthly fee? Do you know that L4D1 maps are going to be compatible with L4D2? Is the ladder you play on endless or does it have seasons? (I am assuming it has seasons)… After answering those questions, please explain how your time/money was wasted?
Gregory, I’m not sure how you think you can tell anything about a game’s gameplay from watching Trailers.
Production of this sequel began shortly after the release of the first game, so we’re told. And it’s due to be released less than a year after the first. These two points not only tell me that this sequel isn’t really in line with what we’ve come to expect from Valve, but that the first game’s release wasn’t either.
Maybe it’s just me, but if I worked for a company that could print money and keep games in development for about as long as they needed to be, I would at the least quadruple check the team’s satisfaction with the game before going gold and working on another project. ‘Is the gameplay balanced effectively with the special infected already in the game? Even at this juncture, should be consider adding another few into the mix if it will keep the game consistently interesting? It might be nice if we had a couple different gun meshes and sound effect sets to make things more varied. Perhaps we should finish up those other two versus movies before launch. Perhaps we should spend a few hours and create a special infected HUD.’ And so on. I mean, if you have more money than God you can take your time to do things like this. And at least as far as their research goes, they would have us believe that they really did come to their conclusions based on what gamers wanted. The characters should be archetypes and not change significantly, we’re told. Having an explicitly defined story arc across movies wasn’t what people wanted. Neither did maps that have varying routes, including ones that have ways blocked off randomly. And so on.
Instead, it seems like two or three weeks after release – presumably quite a while after going gold – they decide that they are brimming with ideas that can only amount to a sequel. They could release one of their five new movies over a period of a year or more as either paid or free DLC, adding to their established work, but for some reason they did not want to. The characters they everyone already liked and (I would assume) are made possible by still living, still working, voice actors who like money aren’t used at all. The game balance that resulted in their tweaks to the director and the interaction of the normal and special infected is altered with who knows how much time to rebalanced it. Now, multiple paths are a good idea. Now character progression over multiple campaigns is a good idea too. Now we have more gore. Now we have rain and not rain. Now we need a sequel. And all of this development over less than a year while completing the first game with those other two versus campaigns is on the back burner. No wonder people are upset about the level of support the first game received; the team was too busy working on its sequel to devote their time to it.
Both Team Fortress 2 and Left 4 Dead are on the Xbox, but only the latter has enjoyed just as much success on that platform as it has for the PC. The TF2 team has said that porting their updates has been difficult in terms of making it something the 360 can handle as well as Microsoft’s demand for paid DLC. It seems like they were brainstorming for updates like Gabe had promised in his October 08 interview, and when they went to Microsoft to fight for it to be free there as it would be for Steam, Microsoft came back with two words: hell, no (to be read in Francis’ voice). Free means Microsoft doesn’t get a cut from DLC sales, and furthermore have to serve it to players at a loss due to the bandwidth. More importantly, the precedent Valve would be setting with that much content available for free, would be unacceptable if anyone else tried to do the same. It spelled nothing but loss of money in Microsoft’s eyes. Valve fought for who knows how many free movies and all they managed to get was the Survival Pack. They got a lot of praise for pushing for free 360 DLC but as it happens we didn’t even know the half of it. It’s just a damn shame that they lost.
After their compromise they had two choices: release this stuff for a fee on xbox while giving it away for free on the PC, or make enough changes to justify a sequel and release it as normal on both. This would explain the new characters, too – including the old ones would make this all too blatant. So in any case don’t go blaming EA for this one; Microsoft is the one you should be going after. Their business model came into conflict with Valve’s, and this time Valve lost.
Moved to forums, by myself, for continued discussion.
@Hoppipolla
I totally did. Now I can’t stop reading the article that way.
I genuinely feel better having read this interview. They made me feel quite foolish for sharpening my pitchfork so quickly. Thanks RPS and Valve, I’ll have a little faith.
GTA IV: TLATD was 1.8GB and DLC. L4D2 would be bigger, but LTATD has set a precedent for fairly large DLC content. However, this can’t be taken as a perfect example since Micro$oft and Rockstar got into bed to keep TLATD off the PS3 as a 360 exclusive. This could surely have affected Micro$oft’s willingness to allow and charge less for a gazillion 1.8GB downloads over LIVE.
Incidentally, the less shouty members of AIM can air their view silently by joining this Steam group, which has already amassed 12,316 members since 1st June, 2009.
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/L4D2boycott
P.S. Oh and I don’t always use the dollar sign in Microsoft, but in this case it was particularly fitting.
I can’t get over this “L4D is a beta” argument, frankly that’s ridiculous.
Good interview, you asked him the the two questions I have not really seen anyone ask, the first and last questions. Good on RPS for not just sucking up to Valve but asking the question that everyone wanted to hear, even if it was bringing up a topic that they might not want to answer or whatever.
He seems to be coming from a different angle than the other guy who brought up user content when asked about new content, when he says theres a chance of new campaigns and stuff. Id be surprised if it happens though, If I saw a new campaign in L4Dead id probably die of shock.
I just bought this game… after they released the SDK..
Only to find out they are releasing the next game already..
I feel cheated.
@yfni^: Good news, your game will still work and be fun for a loooooooong period. The next game may release at XMax, or something, but you have enough time to play this one, get incredible good enterinamente from it, and maybe want to buy the next one. Wellcome to 2F2F1!!!!Oneone ( Too Fast Too Furious One)
I know this is at the bottom of the list so nobody is going to read it, but I want to get it off my chest.
I am dissapointed L4D is seemingly getting ‘left for dead’, but we don’t know that. L4D and L4D2 could have more to do with each other than you might assume, because that’s all it is, an assumption. It’s a guess.
Also, L4D2 has a lot of content that isn’t just being added into the game like TF2 does. They really don’t reinvent the game with TF2 (though sometimes it reinvents the game balance, not the same thing), they add new weapons and maps, that’s something anyone could do with modding. What are they adding with L4D2?
1) Zombies get limbs shot off rather than one universal life bar: This fundamentally changes the game and to repatch and change L4D 1 might be too difficult to do on it’s own.
2) There will be new generic zombies: Also changes the way the game works, spawning, how levels are designed, it could change it in ways we can’t even think about because we haven’t played with it or seen it behind the scenes.
3) Melee weapons: We didn’t have any before, so the standard Pistol/Weapon/Pills/HealthPack might be different. 5th slot? replaces your weapon slot? Will it have fuel/durability or will it run forever? This will also change the gameplay and if they just added it into L4D1, it might unbalance the game completely and require a reworking of maps, where equipment spawns, where enemies spawn, etc.
4) New maps: they take a lot more effort to design than TF2 ones, that’s for sure. TF2 maps could be skinless and it would function the same. There’s no interactivity with the environment, there’s no lightning issues, there’s no destructible terrain or objects. L4D maps have a ton of things to interact with, scripted events, have to worry about game balance in VS, objects to interact with, boarded up walls to break, doors to demolish, clipping issues that don’t exist with TF2 (such as the smoker tongue), and to worry about that with 5 maps rather than 1, and each map being a lot bigger than a single TF2 map.
That said, I hope L4D2 and L4D will not be two separate entities but more like a continuation. I hope they work and play well together and you can pick and choose what characters you want per level and what weapons you can gain access to in the lobby. I hope they don’t abandon L4D and continue to release new content.
I hate the 360 model of business with DLC and I hope that it’s not affecting their decisions on how to do this. I will wait and hear what Valve has to say because they have not let me down yet.
When portal was released, “It’s so short!”
When TF2 was announced, “It’s cartoony!”
When steam was announced, “I have to play online?”
While those are real concerns, yes Portal was short, yes TF2 is cartoony, yes Steam makes you play online, but the benefits to me are worth it. Steam lets me have access to games that I own in case I lose a CD key or lose the CD, it organizes and makes matchmaking and communicating with friends much easier, able to run Steam to chat with gaming friends rather than alt-tabbing or installing a separate program on the side. Portal is still hailed as one of the best games of (that) year, TF2 is a great game and a different kind of game than L4D. Similarities: Valve, online, multiplayer, that’s about where it stops.