By RPS on June 10th, 2009 at 3:34 pm.
It’s time again. Alec and Kieron, bringing unsexy back. Convening in a North London flat, supported by packets of tea and the speeches of General Patton, they strive to talk about topics of import to the PC nation. From Sims 3, to Left 4 Dead 2, to adventure games, to remixing classics to a worrying amount of time trying to psychoanalyze John Walker and an even more disturbing length of time chewing over matters sexual like four year olds. You can get it from here, see its internet page here or join iTunes here or follow on RSS here. You’ll find a full Episode breakdown below…
00:00: We get the General Patton talk out of the way.
00:15: There is a mysterious gap here. We don’t know what went wrong. Maybe we’ll work out and fix it. Maybe we won’t. Who can tell? (We won’t – Ed)
00:50: The first “In the game” joke as we start trying to talk about The Sims 3. Kieron quickly starts talking about his real first kiss and soup instead. Kieron tries and drags Alec’s recipe for Onion soup.
2:07: No, we actually start talking about the Sims 3. For ages. Yes.
3:20: The first occurrence of John Walker bullying. This is something of a theme.
5:46: Kieron apologises. This doesn’t happen often.
8:03: Stories about French maids.
16:41: Moving off the Sims while touching on the over-use of And In The Game.
17:00: Looking at twitter! And pretty much ignore it.
17:40: Re-make culture and LucasArts adventures kick off. Alec finds them distracting. Kieron doesn’t even bother describing them. Then we’re mean to Roberta Williams.
19:14: Alec pretends to be Jim.
20:18: We move onto Telltale’s episodic games and new adventure games.
21:45: Are the old games actually any good? Also, feeling sorry for John and the regression of the adventure genre.
24:00: How old LucasArts adventures shaped or mirrored our personalities. Or, at least, John’s.
27:04: Spinning into game design as expression generally.
27:33: How would you have re-made Deus Ex, Alec? We talk about re-making Deus Ex and how we’d throw the world in the bin.
29:09: The problem with fandom building mythology out of nothing. Building IPs rather than games.
31:05: What game would you re-make, Alec? Kieron just won’t leave Alec alone. But Alec actually has some awesome ideas. So sez Kieron, writing this. Seguing into games based around aging and also comicky books. Buy Beta Ray Bill.
35:55: Dragon Age. Will Kieron like it because he’s a sociopathic slutmonster?
38:00: We say nice things about the Witcher. Briefly.
38:40: We head into sex in games – and how it works and how it doesn’t. Why does the Witcher annoy and we love the Sims? Lots of sex jokes too.
40:07: “Videogame sex is going always be worse than real sex”. “Sex itself is like PE”. Anecdotes about dragonflies sex drive. Bopping! Man, we’re totally off topic.
42:20: We suddenly realise this isn’t really PC gaming.
42:49: Left 4 Dead 2. Kieron and Alec say ill-advised things, almost certainly, but try to break down what’s reasonable, what isn’t and what’s inevitable.
44:50: Kieron should read the site more thoroughly.
46:00: Er… the BNP and protest votes.
49:40: Games as service.
53:00: “Anything else we can insult on twitter?” A quick-fire answer round. Sarcasm mixed with useful answers, including an anecdote about the danger of saying “pylon” at school.
58:49: In memory of Ross Atherton’s leaving from PC Gamer. A mixture of sappiness and totally scurrilous anecdotes from the office.
10/06/2009 at 15:55 Tomo says:
Onion soup recipe!
Demand.
10/06/2009 at 15:56 The_B says:
Anyone interested in some further reading on the whole sex in games thing I would recommend this piece on Narrative Flood from one Mr Cobbett.
10/06/2009 at 15:58 Bobsy says:
Can I suggest on the use of Twitter that you give us a little more notice? These things happen when all civilised folk are at work, and it’s not always easy to come up with exciting observations on the state of gamerising when you’re up to your eyeballs in pigeon-sick.*
Plus of course there’s plenty of people who don’t have access to a computer during the day. Work, and all that. You slackers.
*only applicable for pigeon-sick cleaners.
10/06/2009 at 16:04 Ian says:
So how is the pigeon-sick-cleaning business, Bobsy?
10/06/2009 at 16:05 Bobsy says:
My eyes. The goggles do nothing.
10/06/2009 at 16:08 LewieP says:
I’ve never played Monkey Island, and I am really looking forward to playing it for the first time now.
10/06/2009 at 16:09 Colthor says:
“…and an even more disturbing length of time chewing over matters sexual like four year olds.”
Now there’s an unfortunately ambiguous sentence fragment.
10/06/2009 at 16:12 Lewis says:
Funny you should get Zeno Clash’s name wrong. I wrote the whole bloody review before realising I’d put “Zeno Wars” every time.
10/06/2009 at 16:17 Meat Circus says:
What about Animal Crossing? Is that not Sims-esque?
10/06/2009 at 16:20 kyrieee says:
For me it’s not about what they “promised” with L4D, it’s just that L4D2 doesn’t look like a sequel and it goes against everything Valve have stood for.
They’ve given the release date after 6 months of development time but their philosophy has always been “done when it’s done”. They give hands on after 6 months. How is that possible? Because they’re taking L4D and tacking stuff on. They even said as much because they said they started working on DLC but turned it into a new game.
To me, this is an expansion pack priced as a full game, and it’s being hurried out the door. It’s the polar opposite of what Valve have stood for in the past. That’s why I’m upset. And 5 campaigns in 12 months? If that’s the case then how on earth did L4D only have 4 after 36 months of development time?
10/06/2009 at 16:25 Kieron Gillen says:
Meat: Not in a direct competitor way. C&C=Dark Reign, Total Annihilation, etc.
KG
10/06/2009 at 16:29 Meat Circus says:
I am shocked and appalled at the enormous amount of smelly word-dumps you’re all speaking about classic LucasArts adventure games.
10/06/2009 at 16:33 Lewis says:
@kyrieee
“They even said as much because they said they started working on DLC but turned it into a new game.”
I was under the impression they brought loads of ideas to the table then decided what to do in DLC and what to do in the sequel.
“To me, this is an expansion pack priced as a full game”
There’s no price announced yet. It might be a tenner for all we know.
10/06/2009 at 16:37 zombiehunter says:
aaahw i nearly pissed myself ^^
uhm and i got a really delicious well kept ancient familiy recipe for onion soup!
Picked it up at the Legacy Festival while getting drunk (who would have guessed)
all you need is:
Onions…
..
…
….
and SOUP!
ok, sorry for that one, but that was actually the running gag there ^^
10/06/2009 at 16:40 jalf says:
@Lewis: Nothing official, but they have said in interviews that they consider it a full game, and normal “full price” would be justified.
Of course, we *have* just learned that what they say in interviews doesn’t really mean anything, but even so…
10/06/2009 at 16:42 kyrieee says:
@Lewis I’m not going to go interview hunting but the price has been announced and it is 50/60$/€ depending on platform.
Seriously though, don’t you think this is very un-Valvelike thing to do?
10/06/2009 at 16:45 John Walker says:
To protect my fragile reputation, I read one Eddings book once when I was a teenager, and kind of liked it. But then found the next one too boring to read. A pattern I seem to find with fantasy books. I loved Feist’s Magician, but whichever book came after it was unreadably dreadful.
Every other mean thing they say about me is probably true.
10/06/2009 at 16:50 unwize says:
I’d buy a Mogwai feedback joystick.
10/06/2009 at 16:55 Meat Circus says:
I signed up to the L4D2 boycott group, I do not think L4D2 should be free, but it do think Valve need to stop pretending PC gamers are idiots.
If Gabe believes a game is a service, Valve really should demonstrate that with Left4Dead.
10/06/2009 at 16:59 Kieron Gillen says:
Meat: Which is totally my point. The demands have toned down since the early days – which I hadn’t realised – but they were for 10K when they were still demanding the levels be free and not set in the south or whatever.
KG
10/06/2009 at 17:00 The Fanciest of Pants says:
The furor over L4D 2 is just astounding to me.. for god’s sakes, you don’t even know WHAT your complaining about.
All kinds of assumptions are being drawn; price, content, DLC for L4D1 being discontinued, valve is somehow ‘rushing’ this out the door.
How bout you wait until you see all the facts in front of you before getting all A.I.M. eh?
Haven’t seen kneejerk reactions of this caliber since the NMA response to FO3. Pathetic.
10/06/2009 at 17:01 Meat Circus says:
I honestly admit I TL;DRed their list of ‘demands’.
That doesn’t mean that a lot of those people weren’t genuinely angry at Valve’s perceived conduct.
10/06/2009 at 17:03 Meat Circus says:
@The Fanciest Pants:
I know what I’m complaining about. Whether or not my complaints are legitimate is a different matter, but I KNOW. Oh yes.
10/06/2009 at 17:05 Alec Meer says:
Oh god, not again.
10/06/2009 at 17:05 Nick says:
“Haven’t seen kneejerk reactions of this caliber since the NMA response to FO3. Pathetic.”
NMAs response wasn’t that bad.
This is somewhat lunatic. They released all I expected them to for free for L4D (ie.. finished the game in VS and tagged an extra mode on). It’s tired and could do with some ground up work even using the same engine.
10/06/2009 at 17:05 The Fanciest of Pants says:
@Meat Circus
Admitting that your not sure what your complaining about removes you from my ire. Well played sir.
10/06/2009 at 17:08 Ian says:
@ Meat Circus: I skimmed down the list of demands from the boycott L4D2 people. Aside from the basic ones (“too soon for a sequel”, “you’re stealing money right out of my pocket, y’basts”, etc.) the ones I remember were along the lines of, “Valve didn’t even consult me personally about my amazing thoughts on character design!” and “VALVE PROMISED TO MAKE A BACON SANDWICH AND THEY DIDN’T!”
Something to that effect anyway.
10/06/2009 at 17:09 Meat Circus says:
You’ve made Alec cry now.
SHAME ON YOU, ALL OF YOU.
10/06/2009 at 17:09 Meat Circus says:
@Ian
I’m perfectly happy to defer to Gabe’s judgment on the subject of bacon sandwiches.
10/06/2009 at 17:10 Kieron Gillen says:
I wish I had a bacon sandwich :(
KG
10/06/2009 at 17:11 Lewis says:
“I honestly admit I TL;DRed their list of ‘demands’.”
Which probably links neatly back to BNP “support”, I fear…
Anger sides with anger. Rarely matters what each other is angry about.
10/06/2009 at 17:12 zombiehunter says:
Meat Circus says:
You’ve made Alec cry now.
–
want some soup now?
10/06/2009 at 17:15 Meat Circus says:
Bacon soup?
10/06/2009 at 17:16 Meat Circus says:
Mr Gillen:
Can you remember offhand the TEN GAMES THAT MUST NOT BE REMADE?
10/06/2009 at 17:28 kyrieee says:
Who cares what some stupid person wrote on a steam group description. People who think starting those things actually make a difference aren’t people you should listen to. Just because they suck at articulating why they’re mad doesn’t mean there aren’t reasons to be
10/06/2009 at 17:32 jalf says:
Finally getting to the L4D2 bit of the podcast now, and the “what is and isn’t a promise” thing is an interesting discussion. I didn’t really pay attention to what they said in interviews when I bought the game. I bought it because all my friends had decided to buy it, which meant I’d be guaranteed people to play it with.
Of course, said friends *did* pay attention to this promise. They bought it because they expected new campaigns to be added. (And they’re not just saying that now. I can remember them talking about it around the time L4D was released. I could probably dig up a few forum posts as documentation, even. It was their answer when I said that I didn’t think it’d have much replay value)
It *was* a major selling point for a lot of people.
Anyway, I’m not really boiling with rage myself, but I can see why others feel ripped off. And I am going to keep this in mind the next time I buy a Valve game. Their “post-release support” or “games as a service” is not universal. It is a service when it benefits Valve, but not if they’re bored and want to do something else. Whatever they call it, customers should probably treat their games as a product, not a service. Take the “service” part as an added bonus if and when it materializes, but don’t base your purchases on it. (I think that for games to really be a “service”, there’d have to be some kind of contract to ensure that the service gets provided, and that everyone agrees on what the service includes. In a way, it’s similar to the DRM phenomenon. That too was pitched as a service. Go ahead and buy our DRM’ed music! Don’t worry, you’ll always be able to listen to it… Unless, like Microsoft and a few others tried to do, we get bored, and take down our auth servers. It really seems like software companies in general are having difficulty with the concept that a “service” has to offer something both ways. That if you offer someone a service, you have to actually deliver too, and *keep* delivering. If you don’t want to do that, perhaps you should’ve sold it as a one-off product instead.
So was it a reasonable to consider these interviews “promises” rather than “intents”?
I think so, for two reasons:
First, it’s Valve. They’ve put a lot of effort into building a reputation as people who are serious about supporting their games post-release. So when they say “oh, we’re going to support this game post-release”, people tend to believe them (until now). Of course, if, say, the Kings Bounty developers said the same thing, you’d probably read it more as an intention than a promise.
And the second thing, of course, is that it was *very* specific. They didn’t just say “we plan to release updates for the game”. They said specifically what *types* of content would be added (infected types, weapons and campaigns), and even *when* (it would happen faster than TF2 updates – which also means that even if they do add content tomorrow, they still haven’t lived up to everything they promised).
With this kind of specifics from a company that has repeatedly said how important it is to them to keep their games fresh after release, I think we’re well into “promise” territory.
And true about the L4DBoycott thing. Sometimes less is more. They should have stuck to the basics, and I might have joined. :)
10/06/2009 at 17:35 The_B says:
Not really – BNP actually received fewer votes than previous elections, but the amount of people who didn’t vote at all was significantly higher so they ended up with the win. And lets face it, there is never going to make a “You know what, L4D2 is going to be awesome” group that gets as much attention, to take away ‘votes’ for the Anti L4D2 cause, as it were.
10/06/2009 at 17:42 Nick says:
So, piracy and DRM eh?
10/06/2009 at 18:03 ChaosSmurf says:
One podcast with Kieron where there’s no talk of sex. I dare you.
10/06/2009 at 18:21 Tei says:
@jalf: The one problem with your comment, is that seems Valve will still release something for L4D1.
*** The Scorpion and the Frog ***
One day, a scorpion looked around at the mountain where he lived and decided that he wanted a change. So he set out on a journey through the forests and hills. He climbed over rocks and under vines and kept going until he reached a river.
The river was wide and swift, and the scorpion stopped to reconsider the situation. He couldn’t see any way across. So he ran upriver and then checked downriver, all the while thinking that he might have to turn back.
Suddenly, he saw a frog sitting in the rushes by the bank of the stream on the other side of the river. He decided to ask the frog for help getting across the stream.
“Hellooo Mr. Frog!” called the scorpion across the water, “Would you be so kind as to give me a ride on your back across the river?”
http://allaboutfrogs.org/stories/scorpion.html
10/06/2009 at 18:25 AndrewC says:
Ha ha ha STOP GETTING SEX IN MY PC GAMES EEEUUUUUUUU!!!!
10/06/2009 at 18:34 Jeremy says:
I just hate that relationships are portrayed so artificially, it makes it impossible to really make a meaningful choice. What kind of women/men are these that respond to a couple of kind conversations by having sex with the other person? Or, how is getting a particular item going to make a person suddenly have no other thought but to have sex with them? It’s so juvenile in its presentation that to call it “adult” is quite ridiculous, or maybe not, adult movies are porn, so I guess it fits fairly reasonable (a bare plot with no real dialogue that somehow magically leads to sex). They should focus on making a serious game, not an adult game.
10/06/2009 at 18:35 Rei Onryou says:
@ChaosSmurf: He’ll just talk about sexual acts rather than standard sex. What you’re asking for is perhaps far far worse.
10/06/2009 at 18:37 drewski says:
The first time Keiron paused for thought I thought the sound on my computer had failed, the line went so silent.
I love Feist, but overall Silverthorns’s probably one of his weakest efforts. I don’t think he’s written anything as good as Magician, though – the better he gets at writing, the worse he gets at storytelling.
Pods are better with slander. I liked this one.
10/06/2009 at 18:45 Markoff Chaney says:
I’m just glad Alec’s still here. I was actually worried there and started googling for a bit. I can handle Kieron being a hot ginger chick but some things can scare a person. I’ll give this a listen later this evening when I make it back homewards.
Excellent words, as usual, jalf. Looking at it with a clinical detachment would lead any unbiased observer to admit that Valve has not lived up to what Gabe Newell promised they would deliver in the form of post release content for L4D. Period. Full Stop. Discussion can end, but it won’t.
@ tei – But in this case, we didn’t know it was a scorpion at first. We saw a cuddly bear that was all nice and, if anything, too good and had acted like a bear with a different business model for 10 years and did everything that a bear did. Then, one day, it ripped off its bear suit, stung us in the back and said “PSYCHE! I’M A SCORPION! SUCK IT!”. The analogy doesn’t quite fit, I’m afraid.
10/06/2009 at 18:50 Jeremy says:
It’s not a scorpion though, it’s a friendly bear that forgot to trim it’s claws one time. So the hug that it thought we wanted actually cut deep… so deep it broke our hearts. As well as some people’s fragile minds.
10/06/2009 at 19:01 ChaosSmurf says:
@rei OH SHI-
10/06/2009 at 19:27 Tei says:
I think we are safe, and Valve is not becoming another generic crap developer, like Ubisoft, and all the game studios that EA has buy and destroyed.
Is much like a scary movie to think about a Valve, transforming in Where-valve. Maybe fighting EA to release a DLC for the PC…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8IxjzmgIlw
But .. .good story, but is not the world where we live. We live in a world where theres a Valve, full of awesome people, that make awesome things. Much like Google make awesome webapps, Valve make awesome and creative games. If theres something to blame on the doomsayers… is the total pesimist… after all the good things Valve has created, a small “something that can be perceived negative” is not enough for that response. Probably here the most juicious comment is the one from @Jeremy.
10/06/2009 at 20:02 Serondal says:
I’ve been playing the Witcher as of late and I must admit I hate myself for not trying it sooner. This is one of the most awesom games I’ve ever played. I play OTS and it feels like an action/rpg more so than a normal run of the mill RPG, I’m sure it feels a bit diffrent if you’re playing in another view.
I don’t mind the sex so much, it does seem kind of hammered in at the last second and has no bearing on the story for the most part but hey, I enjoy a picture of a milk maid pouring milk over her nude chest as much as the next guy so I’m not going to complain. Although the Card for the witch is pretty insane O.o
10/06/2009 at 20:42 Psychopomp says:
My god…
I stopped listening to The Tea Party to listen to the RPS podcast.
Anyone who knows of my musical taste, can attest to what that means about RPS.
10/06/2009 at 20:43 Xercies says:
Hmm would i feel ashamed that I was kind of collecting the cards near the end of The Witcher. This makes me into a bad man I know…
Anyway I don’t get this, the games are never as good as i remember them. Because I usually go back to my old games and Yes they are as good as i remember them. Its the modern games that are not as good. And yes i have actually tried this, I played a modern FPS and got bored, I’m still not bored with Deus Ex or NOLF.
Anyway I do think people can’t really handle what adventure games are like in the past because were so used to the rules being right in front of you(sometimes, I know of a few modern games where you go “eh what the hell do I have to bloody do”) so the random game logic that Adventures games have would be not very nice on our brains.
10/06/2009 at 21:03 Okami says:
If RPS ever write an article about the DRM encountered in pirated copies of L4D2, the internet will explode.
10/06/2009 at 21:22 Jeremy says:
@Xercies, I loves me a good adventure game, but there were some “solutions” that were just so ridiculous that it upset my logical mind.
Merge Apple with Iron Key, place merged item into Candelabra. This opens the door. I think that adventure games, in order to be successful, need to be less random and a lot more intelligent. Or at the very least, make the gamer feel intelligent. This cannot be accomplished by forcing random items to do random things.
10/06/2009 at 21:36 Vinraith says:
On the subject of the Monkey Island remake:
I’m thrilled they’re remaking the original because I never got to play it, and now can’t find a copy for anything remotely resembling a reasonable price. Granted, a re-issue would be sufficient to meet my needs, but I’m not going to complain about a graphics upgrade.
I can understand the frustration for people that have played the original, though.
P.S. You guys know that King’s Bounty isn’t a HOMM remake, but rather a remake of the original King’s Bounty (which HOMM spun off from) right? The original was one of my obsessions as a kid, so I feel compelled to advocate on its behalf. If you haven’t played the original, you should give it a go. It’s remarkably similar to its modern incarnation.
P.S.S. Has the L4D2 boycott manifesto been changed since you read it? The thrust now seems to be “L4D2 shouldn’t be a full, stand alone game release but instead released as expansion of DLC content (free or otherwise) for the original game.” To me, that sounds pretty reasonable as a means of avoiding community division and supporting the original game.
10/06/2009 at 23:01 Psychopomp says:
Oh my god, why did Jim walk through the room during the podcast?
10/06/2009 at 23:13 Kieron Gillen says:
Vinraith: Yeah, I did. Or rather, it was another game which had the King’s Bounty Licence stuck on it during development. I just didn’t correct Alec as it would have broken the flow – while I haven’t played the original KB, from what I knew it seemed similar enough to HoMM to not be worth bringing up.
And yeah – the Manifesto has changed recently, as we said upthread. It was definitely over 10K when it had what we talked about – if you check the threads on the forum, it notes that one of the reasons they changed the front page was because the coverage they were getting was tainted by the more extreme demands.
Psychopomp: Yeah, it was fucking spooky. He should have been at work.
KG
10/06/2009 at 23:31 Vinraith says:
@Kieron
The original King’s Bounty was actually more like KB:L than it is like HOMM, so if KB:L started life as something else we have a remarkable case of convergent evolution. The real-time top layer, the random spawns on pre-built islands, progressing through the game by travelling to new land masses, these are all elements of the original game. The combat is, of course, just like HOMM (as in the new one) but what distinguishes King’s Bounty (both of them) is really the RPG wrapping that combat takes place in.
Great podcast, by the way. RPS has one of the only podcasts on the web I actually enjoy listening through.
10/06/2009 at 23:40 Alec Meer says:
I know full well King’s Bounty is in theory a remake of King’s Bounty, trust me. But only in name – the KB title was applied after the game had been bought by the publisher. My point – poorly expressed, I guess – was that it was rethinking the appeal of the HoMM-mould game rather than simply sequelising/feature-creeping it.
10/06/2009 at 23:40 Psychopomp says:
David Eddings is dead?
But…
But dialogue…
10/06/2009 at 23:47 Vinraith says:
@Alec
“only in name”
That’s hard to fathom, seeing how similar it is to the original. The new one actually FEELS like the old one to me. Are you sure they weren’t trying to make an homage to the original game and later managed to secure the rights to the name? I thought I’d even read that somewhere…
10/06/2009 at 23:56 Alec Meer says:
Aye, twas Battle Lord!
11/06/2009 at 00:00 Psychopomp says:
@Alec
The first thing that made me think of was bad viking me-
Oh wait
http://www.myspace.com/battlexlord
11/06/2009 at 00:54 Morningoil says:
WOT NO MENTION OF THIEF??? AFTER ALL THE TWITTER LOVE I GAVE YOU??
(Not that I’ve listened to the Podcast yet, mind)
On a serious note: Magician, yeah? I mean, it’s alright, but it’s a kid’s book, isn’t it?
I say this as someone who when younger would *only* read fantasy and sci-fi, so I know of what I speak. And I read Magician a couple of years ago, and it was like, right, but what happened to the bit when you got to Gormenghast at 14 and realised that the Sword of Shannara / Belgariad school of fantasy writing was really only for the pre-pubescent?
I have a feeling this might be starting to get a bit A.I.M.ish. I don’t mean it to be. I did like it.
11/06/2009 at 00:58 Morningoil says:
I should point out that Magician was recommended to me by a friend. Who was 17. I say friend – he was a guy I knew. In my 1st proper WoW guild.
When he quit WoW to concentrate on his A-levels, he gave me his never-equipped Arcanite Reaper, replete with the old 2h +AGI enchant. It was a beautiful gesture.
The character he gave it to has since been deleted in one of my many attempts to go cold turkey, which only goes to show: love not, for all is dust.
11/06/2009 at 06:21 runcrash says:
I’d like to answer Kieron’s question on the podcast about if people honestly remembered some quote in an interview about Valve promising free content for L4D.
I honestly don’t remember any single quote promising or even having the intent to release free content for L4D specifically. Maybe I read something and maybe I didn’t but I always assumed there would be that content. In fact I was surprised when all the mess started that people kept linking to that one story and not to several different articles and videos when Valve said they would release more content for L4D after launch for free.
But I didn’t get pissed off about L4D2 and I didn’t join any groups or complain about in comment threads either when L4D2 was announced either. I also won’t be at all surprised to see L4D get more content updates either.
I think over the past couple of years with TF2 Valve has created an assumption that all their games (at least multi-player ones) would receive the same treatment. One comment I do remember is a quote from Doug Lombardi along the lines of a game being like an amusement park and once you enter you get to ride all the rides for free when asked why they didn’t charge for DLC.
Maybe Valve is doing business like that to be altruistic but I doubt it. What they have said is that releasing free content updates: strengthens a community, keeps servers up, and keeps their game relevant. Every time there is a new content update all the gaming sites have stories up about an almost two year old game.
This gives the impression that they think a better way of doing business is to get new players to buy into a game that came out a couple of years ago rather than nickel and dime their existing customers for DLC or unlock codes.
If people thought that there would be free content updates for L4D I think this would be why rather than reading it on a website. At least that’s the case for me.
It is very surprising to see Valve come out with a game this quickly considering their past track record. It is also surprising in all this arguing I have yet to seen anyone actually question that release date and not assume it is going to be delayed.
11/06/2009 at 07:27 jarvoll says:
Wow. That sucks that David Eddings is dead. He took my fantasy-epic virginity. Sure, later experiences would reveal them to be a little bland and not much to boast to my friends about, but those books still have a special place in my heart.
11/06/2009 at 08:20 Kieron Gillen says:
Morningoil: Well, we were really talking about young Fantasy.
KG
11/06/2009 at 10:46 devlocke says:
The whole L4D2 thing is painful for me to keep reading about because my PC is incapable of playing either, and I have no interest in multiplayer-only games, so I have no vested interest in it at all at the moment.
BUT it seems silly to me, nonetheless, because it seems brilliant and awesome for fans in the possibilities that it opens up. If Valve isn’t stupid – and I assume they’re not, based on you guys’ endless discussion of them – then they won’t just abandon L4D1. Because L4D2 is great MARKETING for it.
The impression I get of L4D is that it DOES have a plot. Which is the only reason why, despite having no interest in playing a game which requires other people to be fully enjoyed, I still plan on buying it whenever I get around to building a new PC. If that’s true… well, what are the people who get hooked on the world they’re introduced to in L4D2 (the people who didn’t play L4D1?) going to do when they want to get more of that plot? They’ll buy L4D1. And vice-versa.
Valve has a world that exists as two simultaneously extant “services” – that’s double the revenue stream. The L4D1 players will have an interest in what’s going on in the simultaneous plotline in L4D2 and the L4D2 cats will have the same interest in what they missed out on in L4D1. The only way to have a complete knowledge of what’s happened to both groups of four will be to buy both games. And therefore, continuing to make both games look like a good investment is, well, a good investment for Valve.
Why would they stop making campaigns for either, until L4D3 comes out? Everytime new content for one comes out, it just makes that game look like a better investment for players of the other.
Please blame all the typos or (hopefully non-existent) errors in logic on the booze.
EDIT: Just for the record, by “plot” I mean a general progression. The “story” goes from one place to another. I don’t know how specific or detailed that journey is, though I get the impression it’s entirely detailed in the progress one takes through a level, as in Portal? Either way, if I play through L4D1 and find myself in one place, then I get some DLC that takes me through some other places, while observing changes in the environment around me and to the four characters I’m invested in… I’ll be really interested in seeing how that same period of time elapsed down south with four other characters. I feel like Valve can make providing extra content worth their while for both games, simultaneously, is all I’m saying.
11/06/2009 at 12:20 Rei Onryou says:
I listened to that on the bus, and it was incredibly hard to keep a straight face with all the talk about Jim knowing how to work a shaft.
Always the sign of a good podcast. =D
11/06/2009 at 14:31 James T says:
The “boycott L4D2″ group sagely removed all that “some of us are boycotting it because we don’t like the Coach’s shirt!!!” shit and restricted it to the reasonable complaints that aren’t mere matters of taste, which is nice. (and which has probably been mentioned here already, buuut I’m not reading all this).
A lot of the “you’re just spoiled” shit comes from the false dichotomy that Valve could only have (a), done what they presently have for L4D (ie, not much, in the all-important context of what was pledged), or (b) released everything they’ve done for L4D2 for free as an expansion to the original (all at once, even). Maybe a few isolated cases believe in (b), but if you have to scrounge for the bizarro outliers to characterise other people’s arguments, you obviously don’t have much of a leg to stand on yourself. There’s an enormous spectrum inbetween “bugger all” and “sinking so much manpower into an effort that you create something you believe to be (and are pricetagging as) a full sequel.”, and people in the boycott group (like myself, as it happens; mostly out of principle, haha) would’ve appreciated an approach somewhere within that spectrum. God, comprehending that isn’t exactly rocket surgery…
11/06/2009 at 15:25 Jeremy says:
Is that more difficult than brain surgery AND rocket science?
11/06/2009 at 15:44 Trezoristo says:
@James T
I understand that you aren’t waiting for a full game, but would like more downloadable content, and I also understand if you feel you have some right to more downloadable content. I wouldn’t understand if you felt Valve doesn’t have the right to make a sequel at the same time.
You bought a game, and additionally maybe some sort of assurance there will be additional content, but most certainly not the assurance there won’t be another game.
That’s what I hate most about this entire debate. The additional content for L4D and L4D2, they’re two separate things, yet a lot of people insist to throw in all on one pile.
11/06/2009 at 16:13 Ross Atherton says:
Thank you for your kind words, RPS.
R
x
11/06/2009 at 17:00 James T says:
Jeremy: It’s exactly three squillion times more challenging than either!
Trezoristo: Even if you can find someone who disapproves of Valve making a sequel to L4D per se (and I don’t know who they’d be, but they’d be bloody rare), I doubt you’d find even one who’d claim Valve doesn’t have the “right” to make a sequel; you may find they disapprove of the timing of the sequel for a couple of reasons, one of them being that the issues of L4D expansions and L4D2 are linked very strongly — resources invested in one can’t help but take away from the other. (They could theoretically recycle some L4D2 content back into L4D expansions, perhaps, but I doubt it, as that would undermine the selling points of L4D2). Of course, being a multiplayer game, the community is as just as important a resource from the players’ perspective, and that too will be diminished (ie, divided) by this release (Cue some idiot: “But you don’t KNOW that will happen!”; what the hell else is it going to do? Are L4D2 newcomers going to go “Oh man, this is great, I’ve GOT to go play the more primitive original instead!”, thereby staunching the flow of migration? My rocket surgeon senses are tingling!)
13/06/2009 at 10:54 Gassalasca says:
I love Terry Pratchett, and I love Lucas Arts adventures. How similar does this makes me to John Walker, and should I be worried?