By Kieron Gillen on June 24th, 2009 at 11:47 am.
This is something I’d normally save until The Sunday Papers, but I think there’s a debate here you comments-threaders would enjoy. After reading Tom Chick’s interview with the Sims Producer MJ Chun where she elegantly ducks a question on why they don’t include religion, Troy Goodfellow starts wondering about – er – the problems of – er – being a Good fellow. He thinks a strict idea that religion or faith should be popping off to Church on a sunday is misplaced anyway. And there’s little in the way which the sims are twisted which allow to pursue humanity’s non-materialistic side.
But look at the Sims trait list. No altruistic only ambitious. No kind hearted, but there is mean spirited. No generous, but there is mooch. Hopeless romantic, but no celibate. All the best virtues are lumped into one large “Friendly” category that is used to force you to make your Sim accumulate friends. The “Good” trait is the catch all for the Christian virtues we’ve been raised one. Not that the traits are everything, but they do – in general – point toward characteristics that are about gathering, collecting and self-improvement. They are a representation of how the game sees story telling.
And it is interesting that secularised non-faith based spirituality is included in the form of Ghosts – which, as an atheist of a hard-science bent, always grated at me – but avoiding anything else. Even away from the matter of faith, while I’d disagree with a reading that made the Christian Virtues actually connected with Christianity rather than core human altruism, the relative dearth of positive traits does speak towards a worldview. And, as Alice and Kev has painfully shown, a characters more empathic traits can provoke as much drama and heartbreak. In fact, it’s only in the context of the good that human cruellness has meaning. That’s drama.
The more I think, the more I’m disappointed by any attempt at simulating a faith in the game when the Sims dealt with human sexuality so elegantly – and without igniting a tinderbox which it could easily have done. And the more I think, returning to one of my standard motifs, the more I wish there was a serious competitor to the Sims which took a radically different view of human nature.
Thoughts?
24/06/2009 at 11:56 Kyr says:
Any competitor with a serious take on faith and religion in a Sim-like game will face serious trouble from each and every religious organization in the world. Not that it won’t serve marketing strategy right, but the game could just be banned in most of Europe (and not only Europe) countries.
24/06/2009 at 12:07 Gap Gen says:
It is perhaps a shame that the more publicised “Christian” games tend to be of the Left Behind or Zoo Race ilk – propaganda pieces more than explorations of a certain mode of thought (which, I’d argue, is unchristian – the notion of being anything less than totally honest with yourself and others is something that goes against what I was taught Christianity meant at school).
There is the SMAC/Civ exploration of religion, but not personal faith per se – SMAC’s view of religion as an extreme that causes fervid violence against non-believers is a little depressing, although all the ideologies of the factions come across as quasi-religious, with planet-wide conflicts fought over points of dogma.
One thing I’ve thought about in the past is a meme engine – a system that models the transmission of ideas and ways of thinking and acting between people. You could then plug into this any kind of idea you wanted, from do-unto-others to purple hair. We actually thought about it in terms of populations, and doing a kind of Civ-style game from bottom up, influencing nations through subtle webs of thought rather than through presidential decrees and military actions.
24/06/2009 at 12:11 somename says:
could games be customized in terms of world view? “select your view on these 5 concept:” Then the player would play a game that would appeal to him/her – but on teh other hand not provoke (in teh good “art’y” sense) anybody. Anyway Sims doesnt provoke, it just entertains – so lets entertain teh individual player in exactly the way he/she wants to be entertained. .
24/06/2009 at 12:16 roBurky says:
I confess I don’t actually understand what the objection is here.
What is Troy asking for the game to do? What is it he wants to be included?
24/06/2009 at 12:24 Gap Gen says:
I think the article confuses spirituality with altruism. The two things are entirely different, even if people can be both.
24/06/2009 at 12:25 Uglycat says:
I believe Troy is asking for better story making tools, including more positive/spiritual character traits, as EA currently limit your options severely.
24/06/2009 at 12:29 Jonas says:
“And the more I think, returning to one of my standard motifs, the more I wish there was a serious competitor to the Sims which took a radically different view of human nature.”
The Sims as made by Lionhead? Oh, no I guess that wouldn’t work, you could just make your Sims eat a basket of cellery to rebalance their Kharma Meter™.
The Sims as made by Obsidian Entertainment, then!
24/06/2009 at 12:40 Stupoider says:
I don’t think there’s too much hassle over including religion in video games is there? I remember it in Medieval: Total War 2.
24/06/2009 at 12:44 Legionary says:
Troy is absolutely right. The game should feature traits that allow you to create a religious character. As it stands I am entirely unable to sacrifice my firstborn (Genesis 22:1-18), stone to death teenage Sims that rebel against their parents (Deut. 21:21) or, should my Sim misbehave, he or she will not spontaneously combust (Nunbers 11:1).
I’m not saying that Christianity is evil. I’m saying that “I can’t make a character that’s ‘good’ according to Christianity” relies on cherrypicking from the texts of that religion. And why just that religion? What about introducing Islam to the game – should my female character be ‘evil’ in that version of the game if she’s not hidden behind a burka?
The reality actually is that outside of the concerns above, once you add Christianity in there you’re making a religious game. We don’t *need* religious games, and besides which the Sims isn’t about creating yourself. It’s a game in which you create a particular character with their own attributes – that ‘Celibate’ isn’t one of those attributes means nothing, and just how do you achieve that mood criterion? By not having sex?
Having faith in the divine does not necessarily qualify you in and of itself to design video games.
24/06/2009 at 12:55 Hypocee says:
It seems to me like they’ve made ‘nice’ the default state – easier for users to process, funnier to deviate from. I also don’t really understand the shortcoming here, unless you want religion as some kind of Challenge Mode – say, Islam to require your character’s nonsimulated coffee breaks for the daily prayers or Scientology to take all your money. And why isn’t there racism in the Sims, eh? Eh? I want crosses burning on my front lawn while my daughter weeps in the corner!
24/06/2009 at 12:57 Nimic says:
I’ve got to agree with Legionary on this one. He’s spot on.
24/06/2009 at 13:02 El Stevo says:
Being celibate is a virtue?
24/06/2009 at 13:05 Archonsod says:
It doesn’t have to be Christianity. Sims 2 allowed meditation, a trait of more Eastern religions than Western.
It does seem strange that we have marriage, funerals and ghosts and yet Sims lack any discernible religious life. Wasn’t there a llama worshipping cult mentioned in the news ticker in Sim City 4?
24/06/2009 at 13:06 dartt says:
Perhaps the game doesn’t give you option to select so many good traits as they assume these qualities are innate in most sims. I expect the sim-ulation would soon collapse if our little friends didn’t have some built in traits such as trustworthiness, empathy and respect for their fellow sim ingrained in their sim natutre.
To suppose otherwise would be to suggest that a sim is nothing more than a feral beast, slave to it’s own base desires that requires the rote indoctrination in to some kind of value system from an early age lest he grow up to become some kind of nihilist monster that stalks the night perverting the wellbeing of honest Wright-fearing sims.
24/06/2009 at 13:07 Gap Gen says:
Well, this is part of it – celibacy is a virtue in certain circles, but not in others. Like Legionary says, fundamentalist interpretations of religion (like, say, the Taliban) have very different views of what virtue is.
I think there’s space for this in games. Like I said, a meme engine would be interesting, so you could envisage sims living in a world run by a fundamentalist religious leader and that homosexuality resulted in execution, say, or one in which racial segregation was openly accepted.
24/06/2009 at 13:18 BigJonno says:
@El Stevo. Not sure what’s going on there either. The complaint that your Sim can be mean-spirited but not kind-hearted is valid, but I don’t see altruism and ambition as opposites (you could have an ambition to start a free school in a war-torn region of Africe, to pick a completely random example.)
Celibate as an alternative to romantic just strikes me as, well, weird. You can be a dirty little slut whore and not have a romantic bone in your body. Romance is related to love and relationships, which are often connected to sex, but they’re no means on the same scale.
24/06/2009 at 13:23 Goldfinger says:
The Sims don’t need religion. I am their God.
Also, what Legionary said.
24/06/2009 at 13:31 Sucram says:
There’s a donate to charity wish for good sims.
I guess they want a Sim interaction dialogue like:
Start religious war—-\ /—-See if sim will resurrect
Greet with bible —— — Ask atheist to stop seeing daughter
Flog for being pagan-/ \-Ask to join new cult for fun and profit
24/06/2009 at 13:33 DigitalSignalX says:
I can’t get really empathic on the issue, perhaps because as a gamer, it seems we’re an inherently non-religious community. The absence of an obvious faith system from sims3 is no more disappointing or indicative of the subtle social cues that drive the game then the absence of lawn care or car maintenance.
In context with the rest of the game, practices of faith would likely be reduced to simply satisfying mental needs in the same respects that watching TV, Socializing, or Sleeping do. It would be just another micro-manage, not an active immersive component like a career.
You can still ‘role play’ if you choose, build a church to live in, hold a couple parties every Sunday and Wednesday, and select topics of conversation or activities that suit your purposes.
24/06/2009 at 13:34 Stupoider says:
“We don’t *need* religious games, and besides which the Sims isn’t about creating yourself.”
Does this mean you’ve never recreated yourself?
24/06/2009 at 13:36 spinks says:
I’m wondering if good traits in the Sims just wouldn’t make for very interesting stories.
24/06/2009 at 13:36 Helm says:
A competitor to the sims that takes a radically different stance on human nature. Will it still be an apologea for consumerism, then? If not, it probably won’t be as successful. This is a hurdle in ever coming across such a game.
I too have a different view on human nature than the sims design seems to hint towards and that makes the game pretty unplayable for me, even if I like reading about how other people contextualize the sometimes surreal results of its fuzzy logic tests, sometimes.
24/06/2009 at 13:40 MacBeth says:
“the Sims dealt with human sexuality so elegantly”
This is the game where (judging by reports, anyway) you can have your
dollcharacter seduce virtually any NPC, including at the funeral of their partner etc.? Elegant isn’t quite the word I would use…24/06/2009 at 13:40 subedii says:
Out of curiosity, did any of you guys harping on about how “ZOMG Don’t make Sims about Christianity!” actually read the posted article?
Realistically it’s about bringing in a different set of traits and issues (and also, potential for conflict and drama) which currently aren’t in the game, that’s the authors main point. Grief he even takes a pop at Christianity where he grew up himself.
24/06/2009 at 13:42 ShimmerGeek says:
Some of the traits that the article-writer claims have no opposite, do, in-fact, have opposites… The words which describe them are just not particularly obvious.
Iirc, Good/Friendly is the opposite of Mean; Nice is the opposite of Mooch (Nice actually is about generosity, in it’s description); and lastly, Hopeless Romantic just implies longing for love, not sex (or can you not be celibate and in love?) – if they were going to complain about anything I’m surprised it wasn’t Good Kisser. Anyway, I’d say Never Nude is an appropriate opposite conceptually, given the way they seem to lump together love&sex and asexuality&celibacy.
24/06/2009 at 13:57 Ayekay says:
It dealt with it elegantly, and gave us same-sex relationships and marriage without any fuss or cowardice, but there aren’t many complexities to that decision. They just mirror hetero relationships. They don’t touch anything about being closeted or out, or for that matter about exotic sexual practices; about rape or incest; about prostitution; or any of the other high-profile facets of human sexuality. I mean, that’s sensible, it’s not an avant-garde or edgy sort of game, and including mechanics for these kinds of things would have been horribly contentious.
With religion, it’s like moving in a crowded room. Any gameplay decision they have would have raised eyebrows. Even if it’s a matter of visiting a holy building with a holy objects. You have Christianity-like practices but not Islamic ones? You have holy days on Sunday but what about Islam and Judaism? Being gay is a bigger deal for a Christian than an atheist? Being gay *isn’t* a bigger deal for a Christian than an atheist?
Even then, they couldn’t make a gameplay decision without making a statement. Does an atheist need to fill their spiritual bar? If not, is it actually better to be an atheist than a Christian? Or do Christians have access to moodlets that atheists don’t? Can the spiritual bar be filled by watching sunsets? Is that as effective in-game as going to confession? Civilization III took the low road on this one, making all religions equally useful and harmless, but they got stick even for that.
24/06/2009 at 14:02 Kadayi says:
I’d actually say based on my experience that I’ve found the Sims to be less materialistic in this iteration, and a bit more focussed on personal development when it comes to their wishes. I also think there is quite a big eco angle going on what with the fishing, grow your own and Bicycles which is no bad thing imho. I think that is far more pertinent lifestyle to promote.
Christian values, whether we actively worship or not are inherently sewn into the cultural fabric within which we (in the west) exist both in terms of legislation, personal rights as well plain old familial instruction or what is right and what is wrong. I’d say that the default state for most Sims was ‘Christian’ simply by virtue of the fact that the game holds to Western Values. The necessity to make overt gestures such as actual ‘worship’ is kind of redundant.
24/06/2009 at 14:05 Kong says:
I would love a sims game that includes the whole madness of religiousness.
Maybe one or more fantasy religions based on monothestic and pagan religions. It would be tremendous fun to watch the loony fanatics bite each others throats.
I imagine a chaste preacher stalking the sims children. Or a ghastly orphanage you can threaten your kids with.
Wikipedia: >Celibacy in its strictest definition means to be unmarried. However, the term is often popularly used to describe a state of life where one chooses to abstain from all sexual activities which is strictly “chastity”.<
24/06/2009 at 14:10 Jazmeister says:
So, uh…. nothing to edit today, editors?
See, the rap music in the game is a parody of rap music, the sex a parody of sex, and the people are basically parodies of people. A parody of religion would be great, but inflammatory. So great, then.
24/06/2009 at 14:14 jalf says:
@Ayekay: I think you’re reading too much into it though. You might as well argue that they’re making a statement that doing homework is boring, and thus encouraging kids to skip school. Or that it is “better to be an easily impressed person” because it takes less to make you happy. The game is full of such judgments already.
Of course a sim with a religious trait would have access to new moodlets. Just like a daredevil, or a good sim have access to new moodlets. There’d be nothing special about that.
And of course it can be made controversial once you decide to add specifics. Just like it would’ve been controversial if they’d decided to be specific about any of the dozens of other traits and features they do include. They include homosexuality, but make it a non-issue by not distinguishing it in any way. They allow your sims to grow fat, but makes it a non-issue because no one cares.
And they could easily allow generic religions, and only portray the traits that 1) don’t judge, and 2) no one disagrees with. A religious person gets a positive moodlet for visiting their religion’s holy building. They get a relationship bonus towards other members of the same faith. They get new conversation options when talking to nonbelievers or believers in another religion.
“Religious” would simple be another trait you could choose if you wanted to. Would it be “better” than creating an atheist? Does it matter? The game already makes it “better” to be lucky than a loser. It makes it better to be excitable than hydrophobic. Creating a religious sim would simply open up new storytelling options.
Coming up with some hyper-detailed concept that would basically be a completely new game, and based on that conclude “religion couldn’t work” is just a silly argument. Why should the game incorporate a “spiritual bar”? Why should it allow “confession?” Hell, why should it even have Christianity?
Cooking wouldn’t work in the game either, if it was taken to that degree of detail. Which is why it is kept simple.
24/06/2009 at 14:21 Vandelay says:
“The assumption that a Sim religion means a church or an exclusive club is a generational one, I fear, one that somehow skipped me in rural New Brunswick, where religion meant generosity and kindness and openness”
Those things don’t sound like religion to me. They just sound like being a good person. Unless he is trying to suggest that you can only have those traits if you are religious, I don’t see his point. Perhaps he is right in suggesting that it is a generational change, but practising your religion is certainly a more accurate distinction than simply being generous and kind.
They only way I would see The Sims containing religion is if they included an option to be part of any faith. Could be an interesting idea, and would certainly add to the storytelling abilities the play has (imagine a Christian family who has a child that ends up becoming a Buddhist, for example) but that would be a tough tight rope to walk without offending anyone, particularly in a heavily sandbox orientated game.
Better just to stay away from the issue entirely. I’ve not played The Sims 3, but it seems as though it has enough options already.
24/06/2009 at 14:30 Ayekay says:
Sure. And no doubt there’s a Southern Baptist somewhere right now blogging about the Sims’ homosexual agenda. There’s no simple distinction about what’s controversial. But they steered well clear of the openly controversial stuff. No-one’s going to write to their congressman or fail to buy the game because easily impressed == happy.
Look closer and that’s harder than it seems. Men and women sit together in the generic religious building? That rules out at least one and a half of the great world religions then. Practitioners of the religion eat in the same kitchen as everyone else? Practitioners don’t hold prayer meetings in their homes? Meetings don’t have a celebrant? Meetings do have a celebrant? How’s he dressed? Like a priest, like a rabbi? Oh, it’s a she?
Any generic religion will either end up looking like Christianity, in which case you can hear the complaints from non-Christian religios and some atheists, or will look generically New Age, which will offend practically everyone who cares.
That’s one thing Chick was talking about in the original cite – that’s why I mentioned it. Whether it’s a bar or moodlets, the New Atheists complain if the pseudo-Christians get an advantage, and the Christians complain if being Christian is a burden.
Cooking’s far more detailed! You’ve got a cooking skill, a career, different qualities of equipment, individual meals with individual ingredients that you have to shop for, recipes, foods spoiling, food quality with different graphics for horrible food, food you can grow, fish you can catch vegetarianism, weight gain from crap foods…I think it’s the single most complex activity in the game, actually.
The analogy here with religion is that you’d need ‘Generic Breakfast’ because if you put waffles in but not porridge, someone would take offence. Deciding whether men were as good at women at cooking would be a big deal. The clothes someone wore to cook would be a source of argument and debate. People would refuse to buy the game because it depicted someone making ice cream *without wearing gloves*.
The key difference between this and everything else in the game except sex is that no-one plays a game deliberately looking for things to get enraged about with cookery, fishing, science, crime. And the difference between religion and sex is that sex really, really sells.
24/06/2009 at 14:31 jalf says:
In some areas of the world, “religion” means teaching lies to children in science classes, in others, it means great crusades, in some it means crashing planes into buildings, and in some, it means shooting abortion doctors outside schools. Those are all pretty loaded concepts, as is the idea that “religion means generosity and kindness”.
On the other hand, taking religion to mean “I have something in common with this group of other sims, which draws us closer, and we have a special place we occasionally wish to visit” is a pretty harmless and uncontroversial way to depict religion.
24/06/2009 at 14:32 Dave says:
Not having played Sims games since spending a few hours with the very first one, and not having RTFA…
My guess is the more “negative” character traits are just more interesting. Just as in fiction, and biographies, where flaws are more fun than “he was really, um… prompt!”
24/06/2009 at 14:32 Jazmeister says:
Oh, and I also reject the idea that “good” values are “christian” values, because christians aren’t inherantly good and non-christians aren’t inherantly bad. If we’re going to do this religion debate, I might as well remind everyone about “god fearing” – the practice of motivation yourself to do good via fear of retribution, rather than common sense or an internal moral compass. Some churches hold that the human moral compass is, at best, a flawed substitute for the Bible. You could draw a venn diagram of “christian values” and “good values”, and they would overlap, but not, I’d say, completely. Plus, it’s just mean to stick your flag in a set of values. I hate being called a good christian (especially with the “you are, even if you don’t know it” clause). It’s obnoxious. It’s like saying that the Xbox adopts the “N64″ controller archetype because it has shoulder pads, buttons, and a stick.
Also, you kill bugs in the Sims 2. It’s, like, necessary, Buddhist or not. Any of that in S3?
24/06/2009 at 14:33 Ayekay says:
TBF he then adds ‘and hating gay people’. Altruism and homophobia are, I think, a uniquely religious combination. But your point is well made. If you’re not wearing the hats and saying the words, being pious is largely indistinguishable from being altruistic (and/or bigoted).
24/06/2009 at 14:33 Psychopomp says:
“What about introducing Islam to the game – should my female character be ‘evil’ in that version of the game if she’s not hidden behind a burka?”
No, they wouldn’t be. Read a Qu’ran, the verse that comes from merely states to “dress modestly.” No mention of a burka in sight. The burka is just one of a long list of tribal traditions that Islam originally broke away from, then strangely reverted back to after that golden age of science, and knowledge.
I’d suggest *any* westerner pick up “Reconciliation” by Benazir Bhutto, by the way.
24/06/2009 at 14:37 Ayekay says:
Sadly, that’s not true, for the specific reasons I’ve mentioned. You *will* get the nuttier kind of Orthodox Jews writing in to complain that it’s anti-semitic to leave Judaism out (the generic religion can’t be Judaism because men and women sit together!) You will get the nuttier kind of Muslims complaining about the lack of halal and the fact that women don’t get a moodlet penalty for visiting their religious building with uncovered hair. You will get extreme Christians going apeshit over gay and female priests…or complaining about a New Age agenda because the religious buildings don’t have priests. And if you’ve spent any time on atheism.reddit, you’ll know that you’ll get the more militant flavour of atheist bitching endlessly that you can get a Has Prayed bonus moodlet but not a Has Just Read the God Delusion bonus moodlet. :)
24/06/2009 at 14:59 Mungrul says:
What’s the problem with creating a pantheon of “pretend” religions?
I reckon Armok would be okay with expanding into the world of the Sims, although the lack of magma might be an issue.
24/06/2009 at 15:05 Gap Gen says:
Well, because the Bible says that worshipping a different god is a sin, so pretend religions would rile people.
One option would be to design a religion a bit like designing an RPG character, to include all kinds of traits. Like I said, it would be interesting to have a game where your society could be misogynistic or racist, but that’s not the sort of game that The Sims is.
24/06/2009 at 15:09 Mungrul says:
Yes, but YOU wouldn’t be worshipping this false god, your SIMS would be.
Like how killing people in games isn’t actually the same as killing people in real life.
24/06/2009 at 15:13 Stupoider says:
Spore had religions. :D
24/06/2009 at 15:21 Gap Gen says:
Mungrul: Well, the blog post was specifically about allowing more options for spirituality and/or good behaviour. So the issue *is* how you relate to your Sims and their actions and beliefs. Especially since in this sort of situation, people often tend to relate with their characters (like John Walker mainly playing good characters in RPGs rather than John the Bastard, say).
24/06/2009 at 15:22 Uglycat says:
Sorry, but Legionary is painly wrong, and is guilty of the very cherry-picking that he says would be the problem. Jews would point to the Shema Yisrael in Deut 6:4 as their focus, and Christians wouldn’t be picking the absurdly decontextualized examples from the Torah, but would point towards Matt 22:37ff (which in itself, is a paraphrasing of Deut 6). In short, both religions would be following the concept of the Golden Rule, a concept which is pretty much upheld by most religions and systems of belief. Troy points out that the Sims doesn’t contain these traits, and as Keiron notes, the list is poor in positive qualities.
24/06/2009 at 15:29 Jeremy says:
I think what this is going to show us is that, no matter what, a digital representation of life will never be as diverse and interesting as the real thing :)
That being said, I think that adding religion to this game just isn’t possible. There are so many shades of religion and spirituality, even within the same religions. You have extremes on either side, you have middle of the roaders, you have people who are “insert religion here” just because their parents grew up in that particular religion. You have people who have had crazy life changes as a result of a spiritual experience. How can you define this in a game? How can you make a person’s religion and spirituality as complex and varied as it is in real life? Most people have a unique story when it comes to their beliefs, trying to “game” it seems like an impossible task.
Also, for the sake of the discussion, I don’t think these underhanded and (not so) subtle jabs at religions are entirely helpful. Leave your baggage at the door :)
24/06/2009 at 15:38 Wisq says:
The comments in this thread alone should be ample proof as to why games like Civilization approach religion as an interchangeable abstraction, and more close-up games like the Sims don’t go near it at all.
(“Anyway, when I get my membership card and blazer badge back from the League of Agnostics, I shall urge the executive to lodge a protest against that religious racket! Pass the butter knife!”)
24/06/2009 at 15:44 flo says:
I’m an Atheist too and I’m perfectly fine with ghosts. Not because I believe they exist for real, but because, well, ghosts are fun, kind of. Religion is not. Also, ghosts != religion cause last time I checked there wasn’t a “ghost religion” or something, it’s just fairy tales, old cultural baggage, whatever you wanna call it, but like vampires, many people find a certain appeal in it in fiction, and the sims too, is “fiction”.
Also I don’t understand how that “christian gamer” could be offended by ghosts … after all his religion believes in forms of the supernatural too, some of which are some times described/displayed similiar to ghosts.
24/06/2009 at 15:48 Stupoider says:
Wow, folks. Why not just have a simplified version of religion rather than accommodating the extremes and what not?
24/06/2009 at 15:59 Deg says:
I agree that the Sims should balance out their aspirations. There should be rewards for playing a character that is generous, thrifty, kind-hearted, etc.
24/06/2009 at 15:59 Jeremy says:
In an ideal world I think we could have a simplified religion in a game, a catch-all of sorts, but we don’t live in that ideal world and no matter what slant we put on this “simplified” religion, it seems that chaos would ensue. Inevitably.
24/06/2009 at 16:11 Hypocee says:
One word: ‘Thetan’ :)
24/06/2009 at 16:14 Hypocee says:
‘Extremes’ like moderate, mainstream Judaism and Islam? Just going that far takes you down the rabbit hole of gender norms, dietary prohibitions and ritual prescriptions.
24/06/2009 at 16:21 roBurky says:
On the same subject, there /is/ a rather weird implementation of religion in Kudos 2. You can go to church on a sunday, but only after you reach something like your mid-twenties.
But what annoyed me is that it seems to be the only activity in the game which will raise your ‘honesty’ stat. And one of the high-level science jobs required a high honest, so I reached a point where I couldn’t get a promotion because I hadn’t been going to church all my life.
24/06/2009 at 16:41 Wisq says:
@Deg: Er, there are plenty of rewards.
“Good” has lots of benefits — pay money for mood via charities, never be mean to other sims, react more positively to negative interactions, and give other sims the “comforted” moodlet.
“Frugal” lets you clip coupons and get discounts. Not so great for groceries, but books can get pretty expensive.
There’s no “kind-hearted” per se, but there’s “good” and “friendly”, which pretty much cover that.
Frankly, the positive traits cover most of the spectrum of what most religious people consider to be their religion’s positive values. Except celibacy — which is covered by your Sims not automatically woohoing unless you tell them to (I believe), which can certainly be after marriage, or never.
As such, I find the entire thesis of the original article rather suspect. It sounds like he just did a basic search for the names he gives his personal values, rather than actually reading the description of each trait and seeing what values it covers.
I find the mention of his Sims “resisting” him rather hollow as well. Sims’ wishes are just extrapolations of their past, current, and/or upcoming situation. If you start them writing, they’ll want to write a certain kind of novel — based on what kinds of books their parents wrote, in fact — or just further increase their writing skill. Throw a party and they’ll want to throw a great one. Give them traits and they’ll want to do things that match that — clean things up for “neat”, donate to charity for “good”, etc. If you have a child on the way, they’ll want to buy cribs, high chairs, etc. If you have an actual child, they’ll want to see them age up well, etc.
Plus, wishes are 100% optional and ignorable. They’re not going to go out and have kids or buy a computer on their own — that’s your job. And if you still insist that the game never even mention the possibility of either, then give your Sim the “hates children” and “frugal” / “technophobe” traits. If you want to change that later, use the mid-life crisis. Really, what’s the problem here?
24/06/2009 at 16:48 Gap Gen says:
Ghosts do imply spirituality, though, since it implies that a spirit/soul exists (which materialists like myself contest).
24/06/2009 at 16:54 Wisq says:
I should add that I think there is a way to do religion in a neutral manner — simply give players a religion editor and treat it like any other Sims player-made creation.
Players could create a set of principles to match their religion, although you’d need a pretty broad list — things to wear at certain times, accepted hairstyles (including facial hair), things to eat / not to eat, things that should never be eaten at the same time / on the same plates, traits to automatically lean towards, etc.
Then there are other associated factors, like how likely you are to pass your religion on to the next generation (ranging from gentle suggestion to 100% forced), how strongly you dislike people of other religions (possibly on an individual basis), penalties for straying, etc.
Bonus points for not including any religions by default, to ensure that nobody’s up in arms about your depiction of their religion.
I’m not saying it’s a good idea or that it’d be easy to do, but merely possible. Frankly, I’m perfectly happy without religion in the Sims, but I’m agnostic, so I’m probably somewhat biased in favour of the current no-religion status.
24/06/2009 at 17:18 panik says:
There is no “game” in the sims 3, you need to pretend to get anything out of it.
Wait for someone to make a preacher outfit for your dollie and play away.
24/06/2009 at 17:21 Tei says:
Who cares about religion?
What I dont really like is the static tree of Civi. Why I have to invent cristianism? or the hanging gardens?. I hate the *vision* of the civi games that every civilization has to repeat the same errors and mistakes.
Sure, cristianism was a good thing for civilization (see what I did here?) because was monoteism technology (see?) that is better than prior technology. Monoteism was a advancement on civilization, and made life better. Of course, as any other technology ( copper weapons ) it make obsolete by evolution. Now religion and probably filosophy, are made obsolete by science. We don’t have to ponder about Thor in the sky, since we can go there (to the sky)( and beyond!).
24/06/2009 at 17:31 Jetsetlemming says:
“And it is interesting that secularised non-faith based spirituality is included in the form of Ghosts – which, as an atheist of a hard-science bent, always grated at me”
Does grate mean something else in the UK, or are you seriously getting annoyed by a fictional concept in a fictional medium? What’s your opinion on Ghostbusters then?
24/06/2009 at 17:32 undead dolphin hacker says:
I’d like to see a Sims done from an Eastern developer, or an ex-Soviet bloc, or… well that’s about it for non-Western developers isn’t it?
Point being, I think what you’re getting at is less about religion and more about the Americentric design of The Sims. “Good” is essentially “American Christianity.” Another couple ways it’s been described are “Egotistical Christianity” and “Capitalist Christianity.”
There was some poll of Americans self-identifying as Christians which asked the question, “Is it true that God helps those that help themselves?” The majority (I don’t recall the exact number, but I believe it was something (un)suprisingly high, like 75%) of those polled said “Yes,” despite the fact that Jesus’s message was essentially communist and explicitly in favor of self-sacrifice, anti-materialism, and altruism.
I think this is the attitude you see in The Sims and other mass media. “Good” is defined as “not being a cunt (to someone’s face).”
Compare the seven heavenly virtues (the counter to the seven deadly sins) to the attitude of American culture (which is inherently American Christian, based on the vast majority of Americans who define themselves as “Christian”):
Chastity (counter: Lust) — Sexual dysfunction. Probably need to see a therapist. And if you’re a woman, never come out and say that in public else you’ll look like a slut.
Temperance (Gluttony) — Pretty obvious where Americans stand on this issue. Actions and words and all that.
Charity (Greed) — Capitalism’s secondary driving force is Greed. “God helps those who help themselves.”
Diligence (Sloth) — Actually rather intact. The Slothful are condemned as losers, the diligent are lauded as “good, hard working people.” Whether or not one is actually successful has nothing to do with this.
Patience (Wrath) — The Patient are “pussies” or “non-assertive” or have “low self-esteem.” You should probably see a therapist. (And when you do, you will be called, amusingly, a “patient.”)
Kindness (Envy) — Capitalism’s primary driving force is Envy. Ruthless competition. Keeping up with the Joneses.
Humility (Pride) — Being called humble is like a woman telling you you’re a “nice guy.” A core component of mental health is self-worth. See Patience.
The Sims emulates American Christianity, which really has almost nothing to do with Christianity at all and can be called a religion only by the most cynical.
Point being, The Sims actually accurately emulates the average American believer. Whether the devteam is an insightful, cynical bunch or just people who are trying to emulate life as they know it (my money’s on the latter) is rather irrelevant.
M J Chun dodges the question because there is no legitimate non-offensive answer to it. That or because she simply doesn’t have one, even on a personal belief level. I’m not sure where to put my money in this case.
24/06/2009 at 17:49 Serondal says:
Undead Dolphin Hacker – LOL I don’t know where you get your extreme views but where I come from making sweeping comments that include millions of people you don’t know and can’t know make you look ignortant and slightly racist, okay A LOT racist.
People who take polls don’t account for millions of people. Americans give heavily to charity because THEY CAN because Capitalism allows us to make money for our selves and share it with people if we so choose. Recent steps towards socalism in the United States have only served to cut chairty to other countries by Americans.
Your ideas of the 7 deadly sins are Catholic which is far from Christian with constant idol worship and worshiping of a man over God so . . .
I dunno where you get your info by no one considers a chaste person to have a sexual dysfunction in America and tons of teenagers join groups that promote being chaste until marriage with millions of people in them so . . . wrong?
As far as this idea that every american is fat, I’m sitting in a building with 100 people right now and 1 of them is a fat person. All the gyms are so packed full of people it is impossible to get a machine most of the time and health nuts are every where constnatly on the TV. So . . wrong again?
We already talked about charity, I give 10 percent of every pay check I make at work to charity so. Every year people standing in the middle of the street collecting money for charity and get millions doing so. We send aid and money all over the world. If America was as you described it, greedy captialist, then the world would be a much worse place.
As far as your idea of Patience that is just totally insane. No one has the attitude here. Patience has ALWAYS been a virtue in America not a mental disorder. It has nothing to do with being a pussy what so ever I have NO Idea where you get this stuff man.
Capitalism’s primary driving force is profit, not greed. Envy has nothing to do with Greed and many Americans are extremly kind. we let people from around the world come and live with us, we don’t force them to change their language or their way of life or their religion and we give them money to help them live even though they don’t pay taxes. Still kind of confused where you’re getting your info.
Humility is a virute in the united states and many peolpe have a serious distaste for the prideful. A star or actor that is humble is much liked as are public officals. Self-worth and humility had nothing to do with each other becasue you can have self-worth and still be a humble person. Self-worth and pride do not go hand in hand.
The Sims has nothing to do with average Americans and if you think this silly game has anything to do with reality ["You are Wrong" - RPS Ed]
24/06/2009 at 17:51 Wisq says:
My problem with the “helps” saying: Is it “people who help themselves” (take stuff) or “people who help, themselves” (“people who help”, presumably others)? Two diametrically opposite interpretations due to ambiguous language.
24/06/2009 at 17:53 Serondal says:
Your comments really make me sick Dolphin, when American missionaries are going to other countries, getting murdered killed and raped to spread the word of God and share our wealth with those who’s leaders keep it from them and then you turn around and say things like this. It makes me sad, mostly for you and people who believe the same things you do. I personally had a group of friends give up their entire lives to go to Africa where they set up a church. A local warlord destroyed the church with a tank no less , raped all the women and killed the men in front of them. We don’t know what happened to the women, but next year 10 more people went and rebuilt the church. Where does this fit in to your radical view of American Christians?
24/06/2009 at 18:08 Psychopomp says:
“Extremes’ like moderate, mainstream Judaism and Islam? Just going that far takes you down the rabbit hole of gender norms, dietary prohibitions and ritual prescriptions.”
Yet again, that’s not an Islam thing. Yet another tribal tradition. Islam teaches that all humans are equal to each other in every aspect, and should be treated as such. It even goes out of its way, in one excerpt, to define men *and* women as human beings.
Most of the negative stereotypes associated with Islam are either A)Take horribly, horribly out of context(I.E. The infamous”kill the herectic,” passage. Just before that, it defines the herectic as violent aggressors, and right after that it says you should show mercy the second they ask for it.) or b)The ancient tribal traditions that Islam originally suplanted, that somehow made a comeback.
Don’t know about Judaism, though.
24/06/2009 at 18:13 Tei says:
Missionaries are not extending the word of “God”, are extending the word of whaterver is in charge of his religion. Is more like marketing, getting addepts. Is a “hiring agency” predating on the most weak people. Missionaries are tryiing to “win” the game, that is having all the people join his religion. That is “of course” the right one. Maybe no one think that these people already have religions, and are not less true than cristianism?. Lets go afrika, and remove his religions, and place our one religion, that is the right one, and remove the old ones that are wrong. Cool!.
24/06/2009 at 18:16 Serondal says:
There is a crazy guy on TV here that says that someone in the Islamic Koran it says that the world should be split into the Nation of Islam and the heretic and that you should kill any heretic unless they ask for mercy AND convert to Islam.
I don’t know if that is true or not, sounds like to me someone slipped a warhammer 40k codex into his copy of the koran ;P Burn the heretic! Kill the xeno , ect ect. I don’t believe anything I hear from the crazy TV ministers until I read it for myself both in the Bible and the Koran so on and so forth. Every Muslim I’ve ever met has been peaceful and kind and have gotten along great with them and I’ve met a LOT as well as a lot of Jewish and other.
24/06/2009 at 18:20 Serondal says:
@ Tei – Sorry friend you’re mistaken. It is up to each indivudal person to decide what religion is right for them. We’re not taken their religion from them and replacing it with our own. We’re simply showing them the difference between what they may already believe and what we believe. If they decide that we are right that is up to them. As far as predating on weak people go I don’t see your point. we give them food, clothes, money, school and take from them nothing. We give them hope for a better life and ask for nothing in return. What exactly do you think we’re doing with these people once they receive aid ? we’re not the ones recruiting people to be sucidie bombers. We’re not trying to win any game, we’re trying to save peoples souls.
Yeah I can see if you disagree with that, but it is their right to decide what they believe in.
24/06/2009 at 19:57 Tei says:
@Serondal: Ignore my rant. I hate the religion part on the missionary. Everything else is cool and have my support. And these people really needs helps. For once: Africa, theres a culture of tribe, this culture make so people (even the presidents!) work for his tribe, to make his tribe stronger. This clearly push corruption. Nothing will be fixed in africa if that tribal mindset is not removed. Hope religion is doing something to fix the roots of the problems: tribalism, etc,.. But everything helps, I suppose.
24/06/2009 at 20:04 Gap Gen says:
There are violent messages in the Bible and the Koran, I guess. The Old Testament is often about tribal warfare between the Israelites and the other peoples in the region at the time. Passages in the Bible support slavery, xenophobia, sexism, and so on. Despite saying “Thou shalt not kill”, it offers various creative ways to do this to people who broke the law. I don’t think any real Christian would support any of those things. Similarly, it’s possible that the Koran contains messages of violence towards non-Muslims, but I don’t think that most Muslims would condone them.
24/06/2009 at 20:08 Alex says:
Thanks to cultural osmosis, you can have all sorts of religious concepts expressed in non-religious context. I know it doesn’t make them any less humanistic, but ghosts are about on par with the Easter Bunny for me.
24/06/2009 at 20:17 Klaus says:
Missionaries -
“Free sandwiches? Thanks! What? You want me to listen about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? You didn’t want to just give me the *free* sandwich…” Now it’s true if it said ‘Sandwich for 10 minutes of your time’ I would have passed it up, but it’s still deceptive. I was a weak 14 so I lacked the fortitude to say ‘NO!’, but inattentiveness works fine, too.
I like religion, I like history, I like culture. Preying on people’s destitution so you can rid them of their beliefs (which, when it comes down to it, that’s what it is.) and implant your own is abhorrent to me.
Bleh. So, in short I second what Tei says.
24/06/2009 at 20:18 Serondal says:
@Tei – Your rant is valid and I won’t ignore or but I won’t hold it against you either. The way early white people came into Africa and tried to change it was wrong and they used Christianity as an excuse to change the way they were living. I don’t support that (read slavery!) What I do support is the spreading of a message of peace and love for all man kind and helping those in need. When you realize that most of the poverty in AFrica is caused by white people and western countries to begin with , you may even see it as our non-religious responbility to assist them. We caused the problem by forcing tribal people into cities and making them work to cut down their own forests and carting them off to other countries. It is only right that we do what we can to help the people who’s culture we tried to destroy. ANY HOW
Gap Gen – I don’t know that there are violent messages in the Bible so much a stories of historical events that contained violence. In some cases violence that God commanded or actually inflicted personally I don’t know that it ever states that we should commit such violence now, but just the other way around .With the coming of Jesus ect we don’t have to live that way any more. The old ways, the old laws and wars and hatred should be washed away. But whatever, you never know. I’m not expert on anything at all much less the Bible.
alex I dunno mate, I’ve seen some pretty crazy stuff in relation to ghosts but I’ve never seen no easter bunny ;)
24/06/2009 at 20:19 Klaus says:
Well, what he said before.
24/06/2009 at 20:25 Serondal says:
The Mormons should be kept seperate here from the talk about Christianity Klaus. You may not know this but they assault normal average Christians too on the streets and in their homes. If you know enough about them and what they’re talking about you can get rid of them easily enough and maybe even convince THEM they are wrong (I conviced two Mormons they were wrong and then suddenly one day they disappeared and were replaced by two more and an older guy who did not let them come near me)
You may not know this Klaus but they believe that The Book of Mormon was written by native americans (of whom there is no proof of ever having existed as it is described) who were visted by Jesus. Then this guy translated this book with the help of God. Only, there were flaws in this translation so the book has been corrected countless times, MAJOR editting. Also the native americans in the book of mormon spoke French even though France didn’t even exist at the time so o.O That is neither here no there.
I guess this is just the point, How can you include specific religions in a game like the Sims without pissing people off ;P
24/06/2009 at 20:29 Hypocee says:
Psychopomp, I said ‘moderate’. I’m talking about fundamental aspects explicitly covered in the Koran and the Five Pillars like not eating pork, making a pilgrimage (obviously a ‘life wish’) and prostrating toward Mecca.
24/06/2009 at 20:31 Kieron Gillen says:
Gentlemen when sentences like “Your ideas of the 7 deadly sins are Catholic which is far from Christian with constant idol worship and worshiping of a man over God so . . . ” start appearing, we’re going well off topic and way into stuff which will just get the thread locked. Dial it back.
KG
24/06/2009 at 20:34 Hypocee says:
I know he’s just a kid, but…
Fixed.
24/06/2009 at 20:37 Serondal says:
Kieron feel free to delete any post of mine without warning rather than locking the topic itself on my account.
However I could not see fit to sit by while someone makes a huge generalstion about millions of people (and in some case over a billion since some of his snipes are directed at American as a whole) of which I am one.
True what I said about Chatholics may seem extreme and I apologize if I hurt anyones feelings or made them feel like I’m attacking their religion. I don’t take the comment back per say but still apologize for airing it here where it doesn’t belong.
Again feel free to delete any of my comments (including this one) rather than locking the thread which wouldn’t be fair to anyone else.
24/06/2009 at 20:39 Serondal says:
Hypocee do you have a single piece of evidence to back up your wild claim that Christian misisons have given people weapons and taking oil and ore from them?
24/06/2009 at 20:45 Hypocee says:
America. Try again.
24/06/2009 at 20:49 Klaus says:
Serondal: I know about the invention of Mormonism, and while I don’t believe it, I think it’s an interesting story. I like that sort of thing. But I think, regardless of who the missionaries are they all function the same way.
But on topic, they could just make up generic religions, somewhat based on real ones. Have people meet in a religious building, pray to some circle, or a statue, or a tree. At the end of the day it’s still the Sims, nothing is too realistic and everything is mostly glib. Date 4 people, quit you job as mayor to become a bike messenger, remove the ladder at a pool party. I mean the only problems are people’s sensibilities, which in this case I suggest be ignored.
I don’t think it’s possible to not offend *someone.*
24/06/2009 at 20:49 Joe says:
As far as religion in games (i.e. the original topic of conversation) goes, surely this reached its apex with Warhammer 40k? I think so.
But srsly, while I’m dead interested in religion – in a “can’t help but stare” kinda way – I can’t say I particularly want more of it in games. Game writers have a hard enough time creating meaningful moral choices without that extra complication. Let’s get the basics right first, eh?
24/06/2009 at 20:50 Serondal says:
Pretty much what I expected Hypocee. No news clipping, no pictures of churches full of AK-47s ? No nuns handing out hand grenades to little african kids? Any explotation done on any peoples was not foisted upon then by the church itwas done by the government and the people themselves. The only church I know of in the world that stocks weapons at all is the Catholic church which actaully have thier own army or at least a guard. I don’t think they share them with others though so , again any evidence to back up your claim?
I don’t know of ANY churches that stock oil and “ore” or own or maintain any oil generating facilities or mines.
24/06/2009 at 20:54 Serondal says:
On topic with Klaus and Joe . I think the ability to make your own religion in the sims (or not have one at all) would be the best route to go. IT would allow people that are interested in that sort of thing to have their own religion in the game and those that do not want it any where near the game have it that way as well.
Warhammer 40K’s use of extreme religion has always interested me a great deal. The space marines have a great deal of faith in their God which is in evidence every time they go to battle. Very evocitive of reality in some ways as there are groups of people that have the same levels of faith in the real world with similiar out comes. I don’t know if the creator of the game intended it to be that way or if he was just trying to think of something extreme and cool to draw sales. Either way I’ve always found the use of religion/technology/phyic abilities in the Space Marine army to be awesome.
24/06/2009 at 21:01 Klaus says:
I enjoyed religion in the Baldur’s Gates, but religion is a core component there. I like it in the Kotor’s but again, core component.
Creating your own religion is a fine idea, but the Sims is a popular game, open to many different people so they’re bound to be more anger there, than say a ‘create-a-religion’ in something else. But I think that’s the best bet, overall.
24/06/2009 at 21:02 Eli Just says:
The problem with religion in games is that in the 20th and 21st centuries religion has increasingly moved towards fundamentalist attitudes which leverage the loyalty rituals and promises of religion to achieve a political or otherwise non-religious goal. Trying to represent this in a game I think should be done, but as an addition to a game like the sims would either be handled too passingly or dominate the fun of the game.
24/06/2009 at 21:06 Serondal says:
With Baldur’s Gate ( and D&D in general) there is a huge amount of fear and angry from people in America at least that believe it equates to Satan worship to play one of these games. Good exampe of how you can’t please everyone.
I for one enjoyed Baldur’s Gate and D&D becasue I know it is a fantasy, just a game. The creators of the world did an interesting job creating all the gods ect and how they work with their priests/clerics/paladins. I think you’re going to dodge the most out spoken people by creating your own religion in a game like that. Only the most extreme people will speak out about it and no one that was going to be buying your game is going to listen to them any how.
Kotor’s Jedi is a very good example. The idea of a Jedi flys so low under the radar that most common people don’t even realize it is a religion they’re talking about (Even though they have a temple) because of all the sci-fi stuff flying around they equate it more to super human type things. I’m sure you could find some people complaining some where about Star wars too ;P
I agree with you Klaus that creating your own religion or lack of it would be the best way to go to avoid any large group of people getting angry at you. I could only imagine the most extreme people getting angry at something like that and maybe some parents who’s children create some crazy religion in the game and just assume it was already there when it shipped : )
24/06/2009 at 21:16 Hypocee says:
Is there a reason you think watered-down or roll-your-own religion is a better bet than steering well clear, Klaus? Or is it just a personal opinion? My own feeling is that anything mild enough to offend few people (and I can easily imagine the reaction of the SBC to the first Topeka housewife who hits your hypothetical and gets virtually “TURNED INTO” a PAGAN IDOLATER!) wouldn’t add any fun or conviction to the game or its stories.
24/06/2009 at 21:18 Klaus says:
True enough. I didn’t even know the Jedi were a religious order until it was pointed out to me in Kotor. I just assumed they were space warriors, or something like space paladins.
I especially like religions in fiction because it’s a controlled environment. They’re will – hopefully – be no crusades for Gruumsh, Tyr, or the Sith in the real world.
24/06/2009 at 21:22 Psychopomp says:
“Similarly, it’s possible that the Koran contains messages of violence towards non-Muslims, but I don’t think that most Muslims would condone them.”
It does.
Interestingly, however, it doesn’t strictly define “muslim,” as someone who reads the Qu’ran; it basically states “if they’re a good person, consider them muslim.”
It really is, despite what many believe, a VERY, VERY tolerant religion. As a matter of fact, it’s the only one of the abrahamic religions that teaches that human life is more important than obedience, and unwavering faith.
24/06/2009 at 21:24 Klaus says:
Hypocee: Oh, well I’m not saying it be any more fun to add it in as I enjoy the Sims enough without it. Ultimately, I’m optimistic enough to believe that people won’t (and if they are, will be ignored) get upset over something they should be able to control themselves.
A toggle button for religion would suffice I suppose. I don’t want my Sim converted unless I give the ok.
24/06/2009 at 21:26 Klaus says:
A ‘would’ should in there.
24/06/2009 at 21:32 Serondal says:
Another thing about this made up video game religions is that they can be perfect where nothing is quite perfect in the real world.
When you pray to your god and he instantly throws down a lightning bolt for you ever time there is no question.
24/06/2009 at 21:36 Klaus says:
Argh!
Excuse me poor grammar, peoples. Yes that’s true, validity of creation myths and the like are fun enough.
I would like to worship Talos in the Sims, though. Storms forever!
24/06/2009 at 21:43 Serondal says:
As far as the Sims go, it is a human life simulator. Religion (or the lack of it) has always been a part of human life, so it should be fair for it to be in the game. After all most weddings are based on religious tradition. I think it would be fair to have something in there to allow you to build your own religion including place of worship and even have a need for religion that needs to be filled for religious sims.
however I don’t think it should be forced upon the player. Maybe an expansion pack ;P ?
24/06/2009 at 21:48 Hypocee says:
Yup yup. In a similar vein, the Penny Arcade et al. 4E podcasts demonstrated for me that racism is actually super funny when it’s directed against fictional races.
24/06/2009 at 21:54 Serondal says:
Hypocee – That seems to be true. When you talk about racism against dwarves and goblins ect it’s funny.
The thing about real racism that gets me the worst is that we’re all the same race genetically speaking. That is why it makes so little sense to me to hate someone based on the color of their skin ect. Really they are no diffrent from you other than their color.
A dwarf on the other hand , totally diffrent race. It’s okay to punt a dwarf or squash a goblin ; P They are lower races both height wise and genetic wise lol.
25/06/2009 at 02:12 Bobby Jindal says:
I think the people on this website (and those who run it) are capable of sophisticated conversation and are like-minded on the issue of religion. The U.K. is a bit more secularized as I understand it. Here in America, however, religiosity is still a big issue and so I can understand if the developers dodged it for that reason.
25/06/2009 at 02:14 Bobby Jindal says:
P.S. Sorry if I have repeated something already stated; I didn’t quite feel like reading all 98 comments.
25/06/2009 at 02:18 malkav11 says:
As a fairly hardline, science-oriented atheist myself, I don’t really get why the Sims inclusion of ghosts would be annoying. The series has always been very far from a po-faced straight simulation. I mean, at various points it’s had things like a Tragic Clown that emerges from the painting of the same name, Death showing up in person to collect Sims, plant people, vampires, life fruit, etc etc etc.
25/06/2009 at 06:22 Big Rocks McHuge Nuts says:
In the world of the Sims, the player is the Higher Power, and the Sims know this. When one of their needs is particularly low, or something is blocking their path, they look up at you, wave their arms around and complain, as if to say “This is your fault. Sometimes they’ll just look up, as if to acknowledge the fact you are watching them. the “god” of the Sims is actually rather mundane, and they have no real reason to worship it (you). So to me it just doesn’t seem to make any sense for Sims to form religions.
25/06/2009 at 07:00 mister slim says:
Really? I’d like it if my Sims sacrificed their children to me. Also I’d like a ‘turn to pillar of salt’ command.
25/06/2009 at 10:08 TinyPirate says:
There is religion, at least in my game. My sims have started the religion of Simtology. The story starts with a simple man who wants to be a writer.. and goes down hill from there http://afteractionreporter.com/2009/06/15/the-diary-of-elrond-hubbtard-my-new-job/
25/06/2009 at 18:34 Serondal says:
I wonder how people reacted to Black and White 1 and 2 in this regard since the in-game people literally worshiped you and your hand and you were in fact a God. I don’t remember any out cry but it may be because I couldn’t hear them over the out cry from gamers saying the games sucked.
26/06/2009 at 00:33 malkav11 says:
People get a lot less upset about fictional religions in fictional settings (like Black and White) than they do about religions as depicted in a theoretical simulation.
26/06/2009 at 00:38 Railick says:
Was there any major out cry over Civ 4 or M:TW 2 for having diffrent religions (that exist) running around trying to convert each other and killing each other based mostly on religion? I know it is historically correct in both cases but it may have caused some kind of uproar.
IT seems a lot of games slip under the radar of these kinds of people , they only pick out one once in a while with the rest of us snickering saying “If you think that’s bad you should see this game” but we don’t tell them about that game because we don’t want them to get even more angry.
26/06/2009 at 00:48 Tims says:
Man, if only you could mod the game rules. That’d be awesome. I’d love to see what people came up with.
03/03/2012 at 17:57 Luvmebby says:
there is an unofficial religion EP for sims 2, two versions:
(you must be over 18 to enter this site)
Adult: T & A : http://www.backalleysims.com/adult_forums/showthread.php?t=5031
Family Friendly A & N Normally would be on SV3 the sister site, but it is down doing updates at the moment.
you can always give your ideas to the creators there.. they do wonderful work after all I suggested they allow sims to have hospital births, and 2 months later walla we do have them and now they are making schools that you can visit.
28/06/2009 at 06:44 video games says:
A game where you’re nice to everyone is just as boring as a “reality” TV show where everyone is happy and loving. It don’t make good TV, it don’t make good gaming. Destruction, hate, and violence – that’s where the money’s at!
28/06/2009 at 07:35 John says:
“Your ideas of the 7 deadly sins are Catholic which is far from Christian with constant idol worship and worshiping of a man over God so . . .”
Jesus Christ, why do people tolerate Serondal’s posts? He really is one of the worst commenters on this otherwise fine little blog.