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	<title>Comments on: Evolve &amp; Breed: Experimental Gameplay Project</title>
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	<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/07/10/evolving-breeding-experimental-gameplay-project/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:30:38 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Hypocee</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/07/10/evolving-breeding-experimental-gameplay-project/comment-page-1/#comment-221100</link>
		<dc:creator>Hypocee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 12:30:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=14525#comment-221100</guid>
		<description>Trite: That&#039;s called a &#039;local maximum&#039;, and it freezes the population in place in worlds (like this one) where the determinants of success are simple and unchanging. If you start again, you may explore to a different local maximum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trite: That&#8217;s called a &#8216;local maximum&#8217;, and it freezes the population in place in worlds (like this one) where the determinants of success are simple and unchanging. If you start again, you may explore to a different local maximum.</p>
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		<title>By: Trite</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/07/10/evolving-breeding-experimental-gameplay-project/comment-page-1/#comment-220635</link>
		<dc:creator>Trite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 07:59:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=14525#comment-220635</guid>
		<description>Going strong at generation ~7800. The record speed is 672,44 m/s. The lowest displayed is 288,11 m/s.  I don&#039;t know if they started bugging a while ago or what happened, but somehow they started popping +200 m/s frequently. Before that, they barely made 30 m/s. I lost my interest after a short while, because they don&#039;t really evolve. They just &quot;grow&quot; a block or lose one, and that continues infinitely - booooorinnngg. I just let it run on the background.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Going strong at generation ~7800. The record speed is 672,44 m/s. The lowest displayed is 288,11 m/s.  I don&#8217;t know if they started bugging a while ago or what happened, but somehow they started popping +200 m/s frequently. Before that, they barely made 30 m/s. I lost my interest after a short while, because they don&#8217;t really evolve. They just &#8220;grow&#8221; a block or lose one, and that continues infinitely &#8211; booooorinnngg. I just let it run on the background.</p>
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		<title>By: AngryInternetman</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/07/10/evolving-breeding-experimental-gameplay-project/comment-page-1/#comment-220523</link>
		<dc:creator>AngryInternetman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 20:58:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=14525#comment-220523</guid>
		<description>Seeing Phillis still trying to reach for that greeny goodness while dangling on that rope like a hopeless little square horse it was, it made my eye tear up. I will not sleep tonight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seeing Phillis still trying to reach for that greeny goodness while dangling on that rope like a hopeless little square horse it was, it made my eye tear up. I will not sleep tonight.</p>
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		<title>By: Hypocee</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/07/10/evolving-breeding-experimental-gameplay-project/comment-page-1/#comment-220395</link>
		<dc:creator>Hypocee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 14:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=14525#comment-220395</guid>
		<description>CS, if my run&#039;s typical that&#039;s from the eggs getting much smaller over time. It means fewer worms blocked, but also fewer luckily catapulted off the slope at ludicrous speeds. Less random in both directions.

Herpers, I&#039;m happy to believe you but I don&#039;t understand. Presumably every organism after the second generation has ancestors = $gen-1?

My run&#039;s seemingly hit a local maximum at basically the simplest mobile form you could imagine, a square body with a rectangular head that waves back and forth to drag and/or wheelie-hop through rotational inertia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CS, if my run&#8217;s typical that&#8217;s from the eggs getting much smaller over time. It means fewer worms blocked, but also fewer luckily catapulted off the slope at ludicrous speeds. Less random in both directions.</p>
<p>Herpers, I&#8217;m happy to believe you but I don&#8217;t understand. Presumably every organism after the second generation has ancestors = $gen-1?</p>
<p>My run&#8217;s seemingly hit a local maximum at basically the simplest mobile form you could imagine, a square body with a rectangular head that waves back and forth to drag and/or wheelie-hop through rotational inertia.</p>
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		<title>By: cowthief skank</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/07/10/evolving-breeding-experimental-gameplay-project/comment-page-1/#comment-220368</link>
		<dc:creator>cowthief skank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 13:16:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=14525#comment-220368</guid>
		<description>Hmm. I have so far reached generation 400-ish, and my beasts seem to be slowing down. I had loads in the high teens m/s, and a couple of low 20s m/s, but now seem to be averaging somewhere bwteen 7m/s and 12m/s...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm. I have so far reached generation 400-ish, and my beasts seem to be slowing down. I had loads in the high teens m/s, and a couple of low 20s m/s, but now seem to be averaging somewhere bwteen 7m/s and 12m/s&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: cowthief skank</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/07/10/evolving-breeding-experimental-gameplay-project/comment-page-1/#comment-220362</link>
		<dc:creator>cowthief skank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 13:05:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=14525#comment-220362</guid>
		<description>I hope the egg thing doesn&#039;t run out of time. I&#039;m going out for a few hours, gonna waste a shed-load of power and leave it running on hyperspeed until I return. Just curious what happens...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope the egg thing doesn&#8217;t run out of time. I&#8217;m going out for a few hours, gonna waste a shed-load of power and leave it running on hyperspeed until I return. Just curious what happens&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Carra</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/07/10/evolving-breeding-experimental-gameplay-project/comment-page-1/#comment-220335</link>
		<dc:creator>Carra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 11:14:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=14525#comment-220335</guid>
		<description>Genetic algorithms can be a ton of fun. The egg worm generator  is a nice example.

And it reminds me of a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.wreck.devisland.net/ga/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;genetic algorithm to make the best bicycle&lt;/a&gt;.

I&#039;ve personally played around a bit with genetic algorithms. One to create a shortest route (travelling salesmen problem) and one total rip off of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://rogeralsing.com/2008/12/11/genetic-gallery/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;EvoLisa project&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Genetic algorithms can be a ton of fun. The egg worm generator  is a nice example.</p>
<p>And it reminds me of a <a href="http://www.wreck.devisland.net/ga/" rel="nofollow">genetic algorithm to make the best bicycle</a>.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve personally played around a bit with genetic algorithms. One to create a shortest route (travelling salesmen problem) and one total rip off of the <a href="http://rogeralsing.com/2008/12/11/genetic-gallery/" rel="nofollow">EvoLisa project</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Nezz</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/07/10/evolving-breeding-experimental-gameplay-project/comment-page-1/#comment-220331</link>
		<dc:creator>Nezz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 11:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=14525#comment-220331</guid>
		<description>&quot;It’s survival of the fittest displayed in a really clear way, that should probably be used in every biology classroom for the rest of time.&quot;

Huh? If the real world was anything like this game, the vast majority of organisms that we observe would be dysfunctional cripples. It&#039;s obviously just a fantasy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It’s survival of the fittest displayed in a really clear way, that should probably be used in every biology classroom for the rest of time.&#8221;</p>
<p>Huh? If the real world was anything like this game, the vast majority of organisms that we observe would be dysfunctional cripples. It&#8217;s obviously just a fantasy.</p>
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		<title>By: Heliocentric</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/07/10/evolving-breeding-experimental-gameplay-project/comment-page-1/#comment-220324</link>
		<dc:creator>Heliocentric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 10:47:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=14525#comment-220324</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve had abortive attempts at evolutionary programming. And seen some truely impressive applications. From the programming of a flapping robot to artificial pack hunting behaviours. The group behaviours are particulary interesting when the groupings are not arbitry and groups may turn on each other, or abandon the weak or old.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve had abortive attempts at evolutionary programming. And seen some truely impressive applications. From the programming of a flapping robot to artificial pack hunting behaviours. The group behaviours are particulary interesting when the groupings are not arbitry and groups may turn on each other, or abandon the weak or old.</p>
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		<title>By: drewski</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/07/10/evolving-breeding-experimental-gameplay-project/comment-page-1/#comment-220321</link>
		<dc:creator>drewski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 10:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=14525#comment-220321</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve definitely hit a plateau. It&#039;s a guy with a fat bum, a little connecting bit, one or two arms to do the &quot;walking&quot; and a little eyehead. Peak time is 27m/s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve definitely hit a plateau. It&#8217;s a guy with a fat bum, a little connecting bit, one or two arms to do the &#8220;walking&#8221; and a little eyehead. Peak time is 27m/s.</p>
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		<title>By: Muzman</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/07/10/evolving-breeding-experimental-gameplay-project/comment-page-1/#comment-220319</link>
		<dc:creator>Muzman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 10:25:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=14525#comment-220319</guid>
		<description>It would be interesting to know the genetic factors that can be passed on in each worm.  But I guess that&#039;s fairly nerdy.  It&#039;s funny how this sort of thing brings it out.
Sometimes the evolution gets stuck in a rut, as it were and you have to restart it.  A fairly dominant species of mine made sure the others didn&#039;t make it after some early success.  But it became clear after a few hundred generations that it was too complex and couldn&#039;t get any faster, yet no other major variations could break the stranglehold.
I resent and tried agian and after a couple of thousand generations ended up with these two piece worms, one part shapped like a shoe, the other a small block spinning like an outboard motor that catapulted it forward.  (I forgot how fast they were going but it was quick)

This reminds me of fooling around with the Neuralbot in Quake 2, back in the day.  That had a number of bots you could set (according to performance) each with its own evolving neural network governing behaviour.  The behavioural loadings were all random at first.  You could run around and execute the particularly stupid if you wanted to as well.
It was bizarrely fun to fidget around with.  It took a long time to get truly notable results though (not just stuff you thought was intelligent).  It turned out that, despite having proper fields of view and being able to utilise them (theoretically anyway.  It was a complex neural network by default and you could even expand on the number of neurons and synapses if you wanted to) the bots couldn&#039;t really cope with up and down, or behaviours that dealt with that were never passed on.  The best breeding grounds were big, flat levels all on the same plane with some obstacles (on more complex levels you&#039;d get all sorts of amusing things like one I did where the level was a bit overcrowded and the bots often spawned in the same place and some evolved the great skill of grabbing the grenades and holding them until they exploded, killing others around them).  On those flat levels you really saw results.  One guy had demos from various generations showing the bots at the start randomly jumping around and firing like some demented dance party.  Then a few thousand later they&#039;re running around perfectly, zipping between obstacles collecting weapons, killing each other (they favoured hitscan weapons for fairly obvious reasons).  It&#039;s quite cool.  You could also dig through the bot files and inspect the neural nets youself and edit them if you wanted to.  The failures in bot behaviours were illustrative of just how many variables you need to get good complex creatures in the world (I forget exactly how many neurons these things generally had, but it was a lot and it was plainly not enough) and also the necessity of hard coded behaviours in order to survive and clearly separate, demarcated systems for handling the various kinds of stimulus (as an open system can too easily not pass on good behaviours).
Anyway, I agree there&#039;s a lot of room for this stuff in gaming.  Some sort of Spore-ish spin off where you breed your own creature and then make them fight (or even live) with others on the net or something.  Endlessly amusing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be interesting to know the genetic factors that can be passed on in each worm.  But I guess that&#8217;s fairly nerdy.  It&#8217;s funny how this sort of thing brings it out.<br />
Sometimes the evolution gets stuck in a rut, as it were and you have to restart it.  A fairly dominant species of mine made sure the others didn&#8217;t make it after some early success.  But it became clear after a few hundred generations that it was too complex and couldn&#8217;t get any faster, yet no other major variations could break the stranglehold.<br />
I resent and tried agian and after a couple of thousand generations ended up with these two piece worms, one part shapped like a shoe, the other a small block spinning like an outboard motor that catapulted it forward.  (I forgot how fast they were going but it was quick)</p>
<p>This reminds me of fooling around with the Neuralbot in Quake 2, back in the day.  That had a number of bots you could set (according to performance) each with its own evolving neural network governing behaviour.  The behavioural loadings were all random at first.  You could run around and execute the particularly stupid if you wanted to as well.<br />
It was bizarrely fun to fidget around with.  It took a long time to get truly notable results though (not just stuff you thought was intelligent).  It turned out that, despite having proper fields of view and being able to utilise them (theoretically anyway.  It was a complex neural network by default and you could even expand on the number of neurons and synapses if you wanted to) the bots couldn&#8217;t really cope with up and down, or behaviours that dealt with that were never passed on.  The best breeding grounds were big, flat levels all on the same plane with some obstacles (on more complex levels you&#8217;d get all sorts of amusing things like one I did where the level was a bit overcrowded and the bots often spawned in the same place and some evolved the great skill of grabbing the grenades and holding them until they exploded, killing others around them).  On those flat levels you really saw results.  One guy had demos from various generations showing the bots at the start randomly jumping around and firing like some demented dance party.  Then a few thousand later they&#8217;re running around perfectly, zipping between obstacles collecting weapons, killing each other (they favoured hitscan weapons for fairly obvious reasons).  It&#8217;s quite cool.  You could also dig through the bot files and inspect the neural nets youself and edit them if you wanted to.  The failures in bot behaviours were illustrative of just how many variables you need to get good complex creatures in the world (I forget exactly how many neurons these things generally had, but it was a lot and it was plainly not enough) and also the necessity of hard coded behaviours in order to survive and clearly separate, demarcated systems for handling the various kinds of stimulus (as an open system can too easily not pass on good behaviours).<br />
Anyway, I agree there&#8217;s a lot of room for this stuff in gaming.  Some sort of Spore-ish spin off where you breed your own creature and then make them fight (or even live) with others on the net or something.  Endlessly amusing.</p>
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		<title>By: Nighthood</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/07/10/evolving-breeding-experimental-gameplay-project/comment-page-1/#comment-220312</link>
		<dc:creator>Nighthood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:44:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=14525#comment-220312</guid>
		<description>Personally, I would love it if you could control spore not directly, but instead influence the creature to evolve in different ways by changing the world around it. Say, you make its prey more aggressive and fight back, then your creature will NEED to also be more aggressive so it doesn&#039;t starve. It&#039;s just an idea, and it&#039;s not going to happen, but I think it would be a lot more interesting than Spore is at the moment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I would love it if you could control spore not directly, but instead influence the creature to evolve in different ways by changing the world around it. Say, you make its prey more aggressive and fight back, then your creature will NEED to also be more aggressive so it doesn&#8217;t starve. It&#8217;s just an idea, and it&#8217;s not going to happen, but I think it would be a lot more interesting than Spore is at the moment.</p>
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