By John Walker on July 17th, 2009 at 10:32 am.
Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising has a release date. According to Eurogamer, it will arrive on the UK shores/airdrop into our cities/invade this country/storm our beaches/infiltrate British stores/come on RPS you’re better than this/go on sale on the 9th of October. To commemorate this momentous announcement, Codies have released a new trailer showing off various weapon types which you can see below.
It appears the game’s assault is beginning in the US on the 6th October, then plans to go into mainland Europe on the 8th, and then finally arrive in Britain on the 9th. It’s the oddest Risk strategy I’ve ever seen. I would suggest releasing in Australia first, getting the easily defended two extra units there each turn, and then perhaps taking North and South America before the risky and vulnerable Europe. It’s up to them, of course, but my dad would wipe the floor with them had he a serious tactical shooter to release.
17/07/2009 at 11:05 Sam C. says:
That trailer is fairly… underwhelming. And a little generic. Boo, hiss! Are they just depending on the Operation Flashpoint name to carry them through?
17/07/2009 at 11:24 phuzz says:
Underwhelming? I was childishly impressed with the shootyBANG, particularly in the second half, especially as it turns out I’m now too impatient to play Arma2 (I loved the original OpF, but now I just can’t be bothered with the complexity. Shame really.) Perhaps OpF2 will be the shooty game for me?
17/07/2009 at 11:32 nihohit says:
If explosions are generic, than – yeah.
It was one hell of a generic teaser. woo!
17/07/2009 at 11:33 teo says:
This game epitomizes the consolisation and dumbing down of games
17/07/2009 at 11:46 Slippery Jim says:
This looks OK. I’ll certainly try the demo. If only the fundamental flaws that ARMA2 has (which are often the simplest things) would be fixed soon, I won’t need to look at another FP: DR trailer in hope, only for it to be crushed again.
17/07/2009 at 11:47 Mike says:
Teo – How so?
17/07/2009 at 11:53 Andy`` says:
I suspect what teo’s sentence translates to is: this game epitomizes the consolisation and dumbing down of game publisher marketing departments.
I think they’re forgetting they have competition. Or they’re trying the reversal everyone seems to love now – set expectations very low, then release a product that isn’t bad and watch people be pleasantly surprised.
17/07/2009 at 11:54 Jonas says:
Looks good to me! Not like the lunatic ambition of ArmA2, but I might actually be able to play this – a dumbed down version of ArmA2 may in fact be just what I need.
17/07/2009 at 11:56 Joq says:
I’m waiting for Bohemia to fix the multiplayer campaign issues of ArmA2. The only reason I bought the game was the co-op campaign, and it’s totally broken at the moment, at least for me and my friends.
I think that even if OFP2 might not be as ambitious as ArmA2, at least it’s given that it will have less issues with multiplayer.
17/07/2009 at 11:57 AbyssUK says:
ah drunken Risk much more fun than this rubbish.
17/07/2009 at 12:20 cullnean says:
are any of the new shooters tacticaly better than ghost recon of yore?
or rainbow 6 raven sheild for that matter?
17/07/2009 at 12:22 Vandelay says:
I didn’t think the trailer looked particularly exciting either. Plenty of games have shooting and explosions, but some are able to do it with a bit of style, which this seemed to lack.
That isn’t to say I’m interested in this. I’m hoping it will be a more accessible and more polished version of ArmA2. I know some may think that that equates to some dumbed console rubbish, but personally ArmA2 just looked far to hardcore for me. This looks like it may have more realism then most to set it apart, but not so overboard that it loses the fun.
17/07/2009 at 12:38 MrBejeebus says:
I was thinking through the whole trailer, “pfft, ArmA 2 does this better”.
And for people thinking ArmA 2 is “too hardcore” for them, it really isn’t, I mainly play TF2 and CSS or other shooters like that, and have never played a “realistic” shooter, it took me a few days to get used to it, but its alot of fun, shame my pc isn’t upto snuff
17/07/2009 at 12:48 Owen says:
I suspect (hope!) this will be a lot more easily accessible than ARMA2, but only because it won’t be anywhere near as in-depth.
Bear in mind I’ll be playing this and ARMA2 (when it comes out) on 360 though, but only because my PC wouldn’t be up for the task.
I do hope it’s not too simplified though, as I really [i]need [/i]to get my teeth into a shooter that has more depth than most FPS’s. From a military perspective that is. ie. planning, vehicles, etc
17/07/2009 at 13:13 jackflash says:
Looks like an arcade game. Arma 2 FTW.
17/07/2009 at 13:27 Dante says:
Hopefully this’ll have the fun of ArmA with out the hardcore difficulty or bugs.
17/07/2009 at 13:40 bookworm8at says:
I have nothing to judge this game on. All I know is that it is called after a popular military sim and that it will be multi platform. Wikipedia reveals some more info, like it having an editor (which is great of course). But it is unclear if this is the most difficult realistic hardcore simulation ever created or a fun action shooter, or if it is a sandbox or a more linear experience.
Until I see at least 5 minutes of uncut gameplay I have nothing I can look forward to.
As for Arma 2, I also think that it is not inaccessible in any way.
I never played a military sim before and I had no difficulties playing this. You need about an hour to learn the controls and you can make the difficulty of the missions as easy as you like.
17/07/2009 at 13:49 Flappybat says:
Arma2 has a lot of flaws that this could neatly clean up on.
This does look a bit more arcade but with Arma 2′s laughable physics and pretty poor simulation detail it could actually be more realistic in general.
17/07/2009 at 13:51 Howard says:
ARMA2 fanbois are rapidly becoming the most annoying thing on this site…
The only thing “generic” here is the comments you people make. ARMA2 is no simulator people, its just not Quake either. There is no evidence to suggest that OFP2 could not be as much of a “sim” as ARMA2
17/07/2009 at 13:53 MrFake says:
Oh, naturally it’s only a weapons teaser. I thought I was just looking at a pish-BOOM simulator.
17/07/2009 at 14:03 drakkheim says:
Somehow I have a sneaking suspicion that the whole OFP vs Arma II drama is just in our minds. The real fight is going to be OFP vs CoD4 Modern Warfare 2. And in that fight, I think its actually got a shot, especially since it has a couple months lead time to build hype as the big shooty xmas present this year.
17/07/2009 at 14:07 Hoernchen says:
The important question is: will ARMA 2 version 23.483 be bug free when ofp2 arrives ?
17/07/2009 at 14:18 freedom says:
Is that fog or is the view distance 200m? Where are the long range engagements? Looks pretty good really otherwise.
I bought ArmA 2 but it was a massive disappointment. Given how awful BIS customer support is I’m not expecting it to get better in the future either, so this might be the game ArmA 2 was supposed to be.
17/07/2009 at 14:19 skrat says:
As a Flaspoint fan.
TBH OFP2 is reminding me more of Battlefield 2, minus the dolphin diving…. Perhaps with a slight hint / layer of Project Reality….
Its a huge relief ArmA II is as good as it is, especially compared to ArmA – as a follow up to Flashpoint.
17/07/2009 at 14:42 Gap Gen says:
I think an early North American scheduling would make sense if Alaska wasn’t connected to Asia. Then again, no-one tries to release early to all of Asia, thanks to the relaxed attitude to copyright and difficult-to-defend borders.
But, uh, yeah. One thing I notice is that the movement is a bit ArmA-like stilted. I suspect that the difference between the games may be reasonably small, with the main distinction being the depth of simulation you’re exposed to (so OF:DR won’t have you reading your grid location off a map, for example, I’d guess).
17/07/2009 at 14:56 bookworm8at says:
“The real fight is going to be OFP vs CoD4 Modern Warfare 2″
if the fight is about sales numbers, i don’t think so.
The name ‘Operation Flashpoint’ does not mean much in the scripted action shooter genre, while both “call of duty” and “modern warfare” are very popular brands. Also, afaik Modern Warfare 2 is more ‘AAA’ (= bigger marketing budget).
But sales-wise there is really not a fight between arma and opf either. OPF is cross platform, so it will sell more copies anyway.
Of course, If the fight is about your personal buying decision, the winner might be unclear for now.
17/07/2009 at 16:27 Walsh says:
Here’s where I think Arma2 will win, hands down:
I can crank out a quick battle using the editor in 5 minutes and avoid the walking 5 km thing. Plop down two platoons of opposing forces and go at it. And there’s only one slider to adjust to make the opposing force spawn in a randomly location each time. It’s good for a quick fix of combat and you can set it up to let you switch to another soldier when you die.
Its not fancy (I barely understand the editor) but its fun and you can play it differently each time. Also you can use it as a template and slowly add more complexity with waypoints and what not.
17/07/2009 at 18:09 Sam C. says:
@Howard: You’re absolutely right, there’s no evidence that it’s any more or less of a ‘sim’. And I can’t really tell from that trailer what’s going to make this game stand out, or anything on the official Dragon Rising site. The Wikipedia article was a little vague, but it still sounds interesting. It’s possible the game could be great, even if they don’t go the ‘sim’ route, and I won’t discount it until I see more. The comment was aimed more at the trailer than the game. The trailer only tells me there will be shooting and vehicles. My original post was a little short, I didn’t mean to seem overly negative or come across as a ‘fanboi’.
17/07/2009 at 18:46 Howard says:
@Sam C.
You weren’t and you didn’t. =)
My comments were not aimed at you.
17/07/2009 at 19:04 Dominic White says:
There’s not much that can be said about the gameplay of OFP2 yet, but from what little gameplay footage HAS been released, someone else summed it up quite well – it looks/moves like Battlefield 2. There’s no body awareness. You’re not controlling a fully modelled soldier. You’re a Floating Gun Arm again, mysteriously holding your rifle so that it fills up a quarter of the screen even when firing from the hip.
Watch a big chunk of actual gameplay here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGBcEJRpXPA
It just feels so much less ‘solid’ than ArmA2, or even the original OFP. To hell with grumpy people like Howard who will call me a ‘fanboy’ – if a supposed sequel manages to downgrade major elements compared to the original (which was released, what.. 6-7 years back now?), that’s pretty bad.
Maybe it’s a good game, but the actual gameplay looks pretty divorced from OFP1.
17/07/2009 at 19:16 Howard says:
@Dominic White
What you say would be entirely fair comment if true but I see no evidence of this. In all of the videos I have seen of this game there has been VERY little First Person viewpoint action (ie, what it will actually look like when playing) and what there is of it seems absolutely fine. Sure it does not have the same “look ‘n feel” as ARMA2s character movement but that is probably a good thing as ARMA is very unrealistic in that respect.
17/07/2009 at 19:18 Dominic White says:
Howard.. I provided a link to a lengthy chunk of gameplay footage that shows exactly what I’m talking about.
And what kind of OFP fan would want a sequel WITHOUT the body-awareness that was so unique and immersive in the original all those years ago?
17/07/2009 at 19:48 PatriotMan says:
Man that was bad…
17/07/2009 at 19:57 Spectre-7 says:
The fact that the so-called body awareness is so important to you really baffles me. What you refer to as body awareness always just felt clunky and awkward to me. I consider the lack of clunky and awkward to be a significant upgrade.
As for firing from the hip, I can’t imagine any trained soldier ever doing that with an assault rifle. If you’re firing, the weapon should be properly butted up against your shoulder, which looks reasonably like the view you get in most games.
The fact that ArmA lets you fire with pinpoint accuracy without using the weapon’s sights is a much more disconcerting issue in my opinion. I can’t for the life of me figure out what magic crosshairs and third-person perspective are doing in a game whose primary goal is realism.
Each to their own, I suppose.
17/07/2009 at 20:08 bookwormat says:
“Watch a big chunk of actual gameplay here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGBcEJRpXPA”
Oh, so there is gameplay footage. Well, I like what I see. Looks very much like OFP/Arma/Arma2. I think there is a good chance that the interface is easier, and the game less buggy at release.
I’m curious how the two games will compare in scope and AI. Arma2 has a lot to offer in terms of mission creation and the AI, while often buggy, does a lot of stuff right.
Do we know if there is something like warfare mode in OPF?
17/07/2009 at 20:09 Serondal says:
There ain’t no cross hair or third-person perspective in my Arm-A Specre-7, speak for yourself. What he is referring to as body awarness is the supposed realstic simulation of what it is like to be a human being instead of a etherla spirit floating around with a gun, more or less pimped out head bob ;P It is suposed to make you feel clunky and restricted because guess what, wearing a lot of body armor and gear DOES make you feel clunky. It is the same in AA, you can’t get your face 0 inchs from a wall and slowly slide out like your feet are wheels ect.
Personally I don’t care which way the game goes, I love DoD which is etheral shoorter and Arm-A which is about as realstiic as it gets right now when the Ace mod installed. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve fallen to the ground exhausted because I forgot I had a javelin missle launcher and tube on my back ;P now if I could just afford to get one of those smoke machines that shoots smoke in your face when you get shot at in the game.
17/07/2009 at 20:16 Spectre-7 says:
Serondal:
Apologies. I was referring to ArmA II, which has both third-person perspective and magic crosshairs.
As for the rest of your comment, I’m fully aware of what he’s referring to, but having marched outfitted in full kit before, it’s nothing half as awkward or clunky as ArmA II feels. If it were, I suspect there’d be a much higher incidence of suicide in the military.
Oh, and incidentally, I was speaking for myself. If you thought I was speaking for someone else, you’re sadly mistaken, and somehow miraculously missed phrases like “to me” and “I consider”.
17/07/2009 at 20:31 Walsh says:
The fact that ArmA lets you fire with pinpoint accuracy without using the weapon’s sights is a much more disconcerting issue in my opinion. I can’t for the life of me figure out what magic crosshairs and third-person perspective are doing in a game whose primary goal is realism.
You conveniently leave out the fact you can turn off all of that stuff and its off by default when you select Veteran diffculty. It will even turn off the magic GPS icons in the map so you have to navigate using landmarks and a compass.
Your comment on the magic crosshairs made it seem like you were speaking on behalf of the game, which Serondal pointed out you weren’t.
17/07/2009 at 20:32 Serondal says:
Spectre-7 Ah you missed my point, I’m not trying to say anything you said is wrong. I was only joking because in my Modded version of Arm-A I’ve removed the cross hairs and 3rd person view ;P It actually IS in the origonal version that way (I’ve always found it strange to play 3rd person in a military shooter any how)
I’m not trying to argue any point one way or another just trying to make it clear what was referring to. I’m sure real life is nothing half as clunky as Arm-A or the other games that try to get the feel right, I just think that is what they’re going for. Unlike such a time that they can realistic model what it is like to walk and have your feet really touch the ground ect I think the Arm-A , ghost recon type of clunky walking is fine but I don’t mind if it is smooth gliding like Quake or Halo either, either way it makes very little diffference. I do like the ability to use cover in Arm-a instead of having your character snapped to it but I think it’d be nice if there were a few more stances besides standing, kneeling, and crawling on your stomach. It’d be nice to be able to back up against a wall and lean out that way or just put your gun around a corner and shoot without exposing yourself (There are many situations where that could have saved my life where as putting my entire head out got me killed)
17/07/2009 at 20:37 Slippery Jim says:
@Howard: You say these points:
“ARMA’s movement is unrealistic”
“there has been VERY little First Person viewpoint action (ie, what it will actually look like when playing) and what there is of it seems absolutely fine. Sure it does not have the same “look ‘n feel” as ARMA2s character movement but that is probably a good thing as ARMA is very unrealistic in that respect.”
Now. Despite the fact I disagree somewhat, even though there are some elements of ARMA2′s movement that is unrealistic (although I’d be interested to hear specifics about what you see as “very unrealistic”), from the footage I’ve seen, DR’s movement has these features:
- Rifle plastered to the shoulder unless sprinting. Even when jogging is the weapon facing forward.
- When walking whilst in ironsight view, the weapon does not jolt or shake at all.
Is this more realistic that ARMA2′smovement, and how exactly? I agree that ARMA2 isn’t a sim in some aspects of its gameplay, but it is in a vast amount of others. Likewise I expect FP: DR to simulate some things well, but if the fundamentals are “arcadey” – like aiming – does this not affect a large chunk of the overall experience?
17/07/2009 at 20:52 Spectre-7 says:
Walsh:
At least in the version I played, crosshairs and third-person were both available on Veteran difficulty. I don’t know if that’s changed, but it was definitely the case.
As for speaking on behalf of the game, I don’t recall claiming to work for Bohemia or any such thing, so I don’t know why anyone would think I’m speaking on the game’s behalf. I am however mentioning features the game has, and if there’s something taboo about that, I certainly apologize.
Serondal:
No worries, and I totally understand what you’re getting at. As far as these things go, though, I found the movement in both Rainbow 6 and Ghost Recon to be much more comfortable than what I’ve experienced in any of Bohemia’s products. There’s nothing wrong with them trying to simulate the feeling of being a real person with a whole body (in fact, that’s a feature I’ve lauded whenever its attempted in games)…. my problem is it feels like they’re simulating a clumsy person, and it definitely hampers my ability to enjoy their efforts.
17/07/2009 at 20:53 Larington says:
The sooner the game is released the better. When that happens we need to lock all the people who prefer either game over the other in a room together, setup a regular delivery of food and regular waste extraction. And wait for the dust/explosions to settle.
I confess, I might be one of the people in that room. If I’m gonna be a potential hypocrit I might as well admit it now.
17/07/2009 at 21:08 Serondal says:
I love Rainbow 6 Raven Shield’s movement. It felt realistic without being over powering so it didn’t detract from the game. I need to download that from Direct2Drive next time I get the net back :P
17/07/2009 at 21:11 HidesHisEyes says:
Just looks like a new BF2, which I can’t see as a bad thing. Arma2 was never going to be for some of us and I’m looking forward to this.
17/07/2009 at 21:20 Fat Zombie says:
I see this as a Win-Win situation:
1. If it’s as realistic as the original OFP or ARMA I/II, then woo yay! Realistic shootery fun that matches the spirit of the Operation Flashpoint name!
2. If it’s NOT as realistic, and has been simplified for a wide audience, then woo yay! We get (for all intents and purposes) Battlefield 3 early, and can have fun driving C4-laden jeeps into enemy tanks. Whilst cackling.
Also, if your PC can run this, then it can run Arma II. So just get that?
17/07/2009 at 21:47 Dominic White says:
Oh, don’t get me wrong – if it’s a good game, it’s a good game – I’m just kinda irked they’re calling it OFP2 and going directly up against the original developers of OFP.
It’s kinda like Far Cry 2 vs Crysis. FC2 may have had the name, but Crysis played much, much closer to the original game. I really liked FC2, but it really should have gone under a different name, as it was entirely unrelated.
17/07/2009 at 22:35 Fat Zombie says:
@Dominic White:
I see your point. It is a bit annoying that they use an established name to get publicity for a title which may or may not be similar to the original.
But still. ‘SPLODES! Yaaay
17/07/2009 at 23:44 JKjoker says:
i love the “realistic” ironsight that covers 80% of the screen rendering it completely useless, ahhh that reminds me of the days when games were more interested on gameplay than “realishum” and “immershum”, when you could actually aim weapons at something instead of firing wildly hoping to hit something
17/07/2009 at 23:50 blaargh says:
@Dominic White: Discussing “bodily awareness” is sort of interesting, but I don’t think Arma’s way of doing it is that great. Aiming a cursor with a mouse doesn’t provide the same sort of feedback that aiming a rifle or whatever does. Controlling a human should feel natural, since being a human is pretty natural. I don’t want to feel like I’m driving a person.
To be honest, I don’t think there’s much utility in trying to improve the fidelity of shooting guns. Accuracy is sort of a trivial skill in a tactical sense. That is to say, soldiers can be assumed to be able to aim and fire their weapons instinctively. Since this isn’t “Firing Range: The Game,” the attraction is in tactical engagements. The biggest gaps between reality and shooters have nothing to do with aiming mechanisms: the almost total absense of morale effects makes central concepts like suppression and shock irrelevent. There’s an important difference between a tactical simulator and a technical simulator.
17/07/2009 at 23:55 Dracko says:
Have you played any of the Brothers in Arms games?
or halo lol
18/07/2009 at 00:03 blaargh says:
I meant effects on the player, erm. I was thinking about multiplayer really, since AIs are usually pretty dumb. Brothers in Arms was sort of goofy, but it did make an attempt.
18/07/2009 at 00:05 Railick says:
@Blaargh – I’ve always wanted a find some way to make morale and shock effective in FPS games. Arm A has something similiar when you combine 1) the long time it takes to get to some of the battles online, so respawn takes a long time so you fear death a bit 2) The bullett snap sounds ect make you feel like you’re life is really in danger.
I’m just wondering if they should go so far as to monitor your soliders mind say every time you almost die your morale goes down or if your friend dies near you it goes down faster and if it gets low enough it effects your shooting and speed, stamina ect maybe even to the point where your character becomes unable to be controlled.
18/07/2009 at 00:19 Richard says:
This looks great to me so far. All the gameplay videos I’ve seen of Arma II have been confused and the player always seems to be half a mile behind or infront of the action and then suddenly… death.
OFP2′s videos look like the best combination for me. That of the orignial OFP (which I found a little inaccessible at a jump in and shoot kind of level) crossed with COD/BF2.
I can here the scoffing from here but this does appeal to many of us who want the feeling of a freeform battle without the severe learning curve. Brain Surgery Simulator or Arma II are not for me. I have a full time++ job and a family: games are a dip-in-when-I-can affair. However a game that allows me to get started but occasionally slaps me back for my bad habits: I have no problem with at all.
I guess that some of us have different hopes for this one.
I shall be eagerly awaiting the first reviews!
18/07/2009 at 00:38 dsmart says:
This stands NO chance against MW2. Its going to get decimated beyond belief. Gamers are going to buy MW2 new, buy OFP2 used, then trade it right back in.
Just wait for the dust to settle in Q1/10 and the NPD numbers are out. There will be much gnashing of teeth.
18/07/2009 at 00:45 Railick says:
I was actaully playing a brain surgery simulator a few weeks ago with my wife, she’s a damn good virtual brain suregon! :P
AS far as OFP2 having a chance against MW2 I don’t think they’re going to be competing against each other. MW2 is like Michael Phelps and OFP2 is like Leonard Flowers. MW2 has to be perfect to win the gold where as OFP2 can be okay and maybe fall down a few times but as long as it is just released it will be a win in and of itself. It doesn’t mean they don’t both have heart or that you can’t enjoy both equally.
18/07/2009 at 01:10 Howard says:
@Dominic White
I am all for body awareness but ARMA2 does not have it. What it has is clunky-ness in bloody spades. It does not realistically represent human physicality in ANY way.
As for the video: No, it does not show what you argue OFP2 suffers from. I see a perfectly reasonably sized weapon on the screen that represents well what would be seen by a soldier holding a gun while moving. Sure the cross hair is annoying but since ARMA has that…
So far OFP2, as much as it sickens me to say this, looks better graphically, CLEARLY runs better performance wise (though let’s face it, is could not run worse), has better voice acting, has vehicles that are actually pilotable (due to not having hideous mouselag) and yet still encompasses what one would want from an army “sim”. Other than it being made by Codies (from whom I would not buy a cup of water if I were on fire) I can see no particular wrong here.
The people who are bad-mouthing this game are just bitter about the name usage and nothing more. Time to grow up people…
18/07/2009 at 01:28 EBass says:
Agreed, I am a big Arma2 and BiS fan, but OFP could still take this one as far as I’m concerned.
18/07/2009 at 02:46 Deuteronomy says:
Howard are you for real? The vehicles are eminently pilotable, FBA really does contribute to realism, and Arma II is a bloody great achievement.
Perhaps you are having troubles with FADE.
18/07/2009 at 04:13 Breaker Morant's ghost says:
lol @ people who call OFP2 “arcrade” and Arma2 “hardcore”. The vehicle aspect of OFP/Arma/Arma2 is totally arcade. Magic box targetting, hit-points based damaged, totally unrealistic handling, etc. Even the infantry damage system is basically the same as Doom (ie. hitpoints) a with the small additions of leg hit/hands hit.
The OFP engine is remarkable in many ways, OFP/Arma is not a hardcore sim.
18/07/2009 at 04:23 blaargh says:
Yeah, BIS’ vehicle modelling has always been terrible.
18/07/2009 at 07:48 freedom says:
Yes, everyone who has problems with the game is actually a stinky pirate caught by FADE.
ArmA II actually has no bugs, and whatever issues you are having (entirely due to you I might add) will be fixed by Bohemia the day before yesterday.
Never mind that they never fixed 2/3 of the issues in OFP and ArmA I.
Anyone who doesn’t love ArmA II doesn’t deserve to play it and should go back to CoD and Battlefield.
This post brought to you by the Bohemia Fanboy Association.
18/07/2009 at 10:30 Dominic White says:
Funny how defensive the OFP2 fans (although quite how you can be a fan of a game when the only gameplay footage is barely related to the original) have gotten. I’ve been insulted, told I’m deluded or downright wrong, and it has even been suggested that I was BRIBED to say that I enjoyed ArmA2.
That’s some crazy shit right there. Apparently I’ve just been won over by the superior brainwashing hype pumped out by a small Czech studio.
18/07/2009 at 11:16 Chaz says:
Could I just say that I’m quite looking forward to it, and that as long as it provides plenty of co-op fun, then I couldn’t give a shit which one is more realistic or what ever.
18/07/2009 at 11:22 Larington says:
I’ve abandoned two attempts at writing up a comment now, its tough trying to add to this discussion without sounding like I’m on one side of the fence or the other… I was going to follow that last sentence with something else but just abandoned that as well… I’m gonna duck out of this conversation I think.
18/07/2009 at 11:22 Dood says:
Why does seemingly every recent comments thread descend into endless bickering? It really seems like some people are actively trying to provoke another useless argument. This apparently started around the time L4D2 got announced, so maybe it’s due to RPS becoming more popular every day.
What I don’t understand is why some people are trying so hard to find things to become upset about. Alright maybe ArmA2 is more realistic than OFP2, maybe it’s not. I dont’ know. Apart from the fact that no one here has ever played OFP2 yet, why not just be happy that there’s another warsim coming out?
Maybe it’s just because people have some much time on their hands that they enjoy having the same discussions over and over again.
Sorry, went a bit off-topic there, but lately some of the comments threads here are driving me mad.
18/07/2009 at 11:30 Larington says:
@Dood: I know how you feel. There are times where I wish a community could stop growing. For instance, I was once in an outfit in Planetside and we had a merger and the outfit got too big with two platoons running at the same time, teamspeak became impossible to use as a communication tool because too many folks were on it. I was actually somewhat glad when the number of active members moved back down towards 30 around prime time.
18/07/2009 at 13:40 dsmart says:
@ Deuteronomy
oh-oh, thems fighting words!!
Does it use FADE? I thought it used SecuROM?
No matter how realistic ArmaA2 is, imo it is still a buggy lump of coal that needed at least another six months to fix – and then it would have been everything in the three post-release patches and then some.
What surprises me the most about this ArmA2 argument is that the fanboys (we’re all tolerant of games we like, much like we’re tolerant of our kids, co-workers, family members etc when they become intolerably annoying) are all up in arms when anyone says anything about how buggy, laggy and overall poorly presented the game is. Seriously?
Since day one, we all knew that OFP2 and ArmaII were going to be on opposite sides of a different fence. OFP2 is without a doubt going to give ArmaII a right drubbing in sales, presentation and overall appeal. For one thing, its on consoles. BIS couldn’t do ArmaII on ANY console if their lives depended on it. Hence the reason it was canned. Apart from the fact that it would never – ever – pass the new stringent cert guidelines. They’d be going through cert for years on end. So the console sales of OPF2 alone pretty ensures the sound beating. Who cares if ArmaII is a better military sim than OFP2? Nobody. They’re games and you can only take what you get from it. At the end of the day, sales is all that matters.
The battle is going to be between OFP2 and MW2. The former is going to take a beating both in sales and possibly reviews and I’m very surprised that Codemasters are actually going up against it. Maybe in the next few weeks someone is going to come to their senses and we’ll probably see it moved to 2010.
That said, I still haven’t bought ArmaII and don’t plan on it until the .05 patch is out. They can kiss my a$$.
18/07/2009 at 13:52 Howard says:
@Dood
I hear you. Thing is this thread has been brought down solely by ARMA2 fanboys being reactionary jerks. No one here could even be described as an OFP2 fan ‘cos the damned thing don’t even exist yet, but there the ARMA boys are getting all brodey…
@dsmart
LOL. Right on, man. ;-)
18/07/2009 at 14:08 Gap Gen says:
On the point of VOIP, our group have started using ArmA’s group channel for squad talk, and TS for communication between squad leaders and general call-outs.
18/07/2009 at 15:04 JKjoker says:
@dsmart : from the Wiki article about FADE :
“ArmA 2 for the PC was the first game to use the new FADE DRM. This new technology was highly hyped due to how it works. However, within days of ArmA 2′s release, a successful crack of the game was uploaded and has yet to see any effects from FADE.”
the ArmaII article says the same thing
however the official FAQ from Bohemia’s site says the USA version uses Securom (but who knows when that was last updated)
my guess, it uses both
18/07/2009 at 16:00 dsmart says:
@ JKjoker
Yeah, even Byteshield was cracked (using our demo) recently. Some people have way to much time on their hands if you ask me.
However, how do they know that it is a successful crack? huh? huh? For all we know, Arma2 really is a perfect game in all respects and those screaming that it is a steaming POS are pirates who have the FADE version. Yah, that must be it I think.
18/07/2009 at 16:06 Heliocentric says:
That didn’t take long. I heard the new drm on anno is pretty air tight atm. I was doing a project on encryption, the subject matter was unmanned space probes, but really anything. Its impossible to protect a public transmission. Why don’t people stop trying?
18/07/2009 at 16:15 dsmart says:
What DRM does Anno use?
Most of these schemes are cracked due to laziness on the dev side. e.g. as I type this, apparently the Tages version of DCS Black Shark has yet to be cracked; while other Tages games have all been cracked.
I wrote a recent blog about this whole DRM mess last week actually.
18/07/2009 at 16:22 Howard says:
@Heliocentric
Nope, Anno has been thoroughly cracked. As of writing this there are currently no games on the market that have not been cracked.
…not sure how I feel about that mind… 8-/
18/07/2009 at 16:25 Heliocentric says:
Ah, i’m working on old news. It was tagés.
18/07/2009 at 16:29 Heliocentric says:
I wish impulse had stuck to their guns on drm-less titles only. Now there is only gog i know i can chuck the game on a usb pen and know it will work reliably. Now, pirates don’t have that problem.
But if it does get cracked, why don’t developers just serve the customer and release a drm free version? Can’t be arsed i guess.
18/07/2009 at 16:33 JKjoker says:
@dsmart: apparently the “scene” claims they did, but then Bohemia claims removing FADE would cause “instabilities” so in the end you get a game that is bugged to hell and nobody knows if the bugs are originally there, caused by the copy protection, or caused in the process of removing said protection.
the whole idea of FADE sounds incredibly stupid considering how fast the buzz about being an ultra buggy game spreads out though the net these days, it does give the developers a get-out-of-a-mess-for-free card tho, just blame the pirates.
18/07/2009 at 16:45 bookwormat says:
@Dood I think it is inevitable that the discussions in a online community change with grow, there is no way around this. But you don’t have to get annoyed by that. Just learn selective reading on comment threads.
If you’re looking for good discussions, you can still have them at RPS. You just need to learn how to quickly identify comments that contain arguments or information and ignore the other stuff. For example, people stating opinions as if they where facts (“This is going to happen”,”Company is doing this because”) are mostly unproductive. So once you find someone answering to such a statement, you can just ignore postings from the two participants for the rest of the thread.
See Paul Graham’s How to disagree for a good reference for identifying arguments in discussions.
18/07/2009 at 19:34 Dood says:
@bookwormat: Of course you’re right, it’s just a little bit of work sorting through the comments like that and I’m a rather lazy person ;) .
Anyway, I hope no one got this wrong. RPS is one of the few places where comments actually make for enjoyable conversations/discussion. 95% of the posters tend to be very reasonable. Quite a lot of interesting people around too.
18/07/2009 at 19:35 Poita says:
Realistic schmealistic.
Fact: if you make a game really realistic then no one will enjoy it. When people say ‘realism’ in a game what they really mean is ‘having some consequence’ such as limping when shot in the leg. having to reload and it take time, bullet penetration physics etc, run speed.
A mouse weighs almost nothing so how is it ‘realistic for your brain to sense you moving a near weightless object and for your eyes to recieve input as if you are moving a heavy gun? If you have ever steered a boat of any size you will know that it takes time for the rudder steer to have an effect on the boat. Cars are more instantaneous. No matter how realistic it is, it’s annoying as hell to be sat waiting for the weapon in your hand to start moving when you move the mouse then for it to keep going even after you stop. Arma2 has the worste control feel in game history.
Ghost Recon was game style ‘realistic’ but it understood that the player wants perfect control of where they aim. We didn’t mind waiting for the reticule to settle but we hate waiting for the screen to acknowledge our mouse input. HATE IT.
OpFlash2 might not be as ‘realistic’ as Arma2 but there is no reason why it’ can’t be just as tactical. It looks very stable so i’m leaning to OpFlash 2 mainly due to Arma2′s clunkyness.
18/07/2009 at 20:52 Slippery Jim says:
@Howard. You must be a parody. The problems you experience with mouselag are not universal, nor are your performance issues. Also to say ARMA2 does not represent human movement in any way is a little over the top. You’re speaking a lot of nonsense in your posts, although if you toned down some of your stubborn exaggeration you would be correct in many of your criticisms.
I think you are either deliberately baiting ARMA2 “fanboys” or being the deluded opposite, which is equally as abhorrent.
18/07/2009 at 20:59 JKjoker says:
@Poita: the delay for the acknowledge of the mouse input is not because of “realism” its because current games are designed for consoles and if they were to react as fast as old pc games did to the input they would be unplayable with gamepads, the dumbness of the usual enemy AI is somewhat related to this (a very good AI that takes cover and moves constantly would render the aiming impossible without special aids like bullet time or splinter cell 5′s “marking”)
and, btw, i also HATE IT :D
18/07/2009 at 21:07 Erlam says:
“BIS couldn’t do ArmaII on ANY console if their lives depended on it. Hence the reason it was canned. Apart from the fact that it would never – ever – pass the new stringent cert guidelines.”
It’s funny – I actually shivered; shivered when you mentioned cert.
For reference, I am currently doing SCERT (Sony Cert) for a PS3 game and… oh man, it’s a real trial.
Oh, and thanks for bringing my WORK into my HOME LIFE ;)
PS. Arma2 would simply get pushed through cert – seriously, I’ve seen it happen. If a game looks like it will take too long to pass cert, they just waive (many) things.
18/07/2009 at 21:40 Nick says:
I would think you could sympathize with massive scope buggy rough and ready games, Mr. Smart.
18/07/2009 at 22:44 dsmart says:
@ JKjoker
Yes, it is an incredibly STUPID idea and just this past week I was having the SAME conversation with Sony’s engineers.
There is nothing special about FADE. You can do the same thing in any DRM scheme that allows you to embed it into the source code. Even SecuROM can do it. As can Starforce, Tages etc.
All you do is stick triggers points in the code and have the DRM engine check those points. If any of them fails – indicating that it has been removed – rather than end the game, pop up a message etc and alerting the cracker – you simply degrade the game. e.g. you could keep incorrect scores in multiplayer, slow down the player, randomly cycle weapons, slowly reduce their health or any amount of crazy shit that you want. Including intentionally generating crash exceptions and/or assert faults.
Yes, it is an incredibly stupid thing to do and the only way to know for sure if a trigger has been tripped, is to pop up a cryptic message. Such as this one from the new SecuROM enable demo I released. Yes, I purposefully put that trigger in there using SecuROM. Only I know what that trigger means.
And for the retail build, the ones used in the demo are no longer used and they have a totally different trigger and a silent fail condition instead of a pop-up window. So any tit trying to use the demo to crack the retail game upon release, has their work cut out for them. Sure they’ll crack it at some point, but thats not the point. The point is, they’re going to have to work hard at it. And then I’m going to break their crack again with each and every patch. I’ve done this over the years which is why you’d be hard pressed to find cracks for my games. Apart from the fact that the wankers cracking these games, hardly play them and they do them based on demand. My games are niche category and anyone with half the brain cells required to play them, can afford to buy them. So they do. Making cracks a time wasting venture. And I’m still in business.
@ Nick
Yeah, if it were 1996 and I were still in a fucking cave I would. Do try to keep up. And not everything you read online makes it so. There is a BIG difference between:
1. Take Two releasing Battlecruiser in BETA form, without developer consent, getting sued, settling out of court – then having the nerve to actually use those same BC3K game sales to help take the company public. Yes, in a way, I helped Take Two go public.
So get your damn facts right before you start throwing out hearsay and trying to pass it for fact. Oh wait, that wasn’t it, was it? You were just trying to throw mud. Silly me.
2. BIS releasing – not one – but TWO extremely buggy games one right after the other and in EXACTLY THE SAME FASHION. All on their own.
19/07/2009 at 00:36 Howard says:
@Slippery Jim
Universal? No. Prevalent? Yes. Look in on the forums, my friend and you will see how regular my experience with ARMA2 is.
As to speaking nonsense: again no. I am just honest unlike every other facet of this so-called industry. Game designers spin more bullshit that a well run Presidential campaign, reviewers take their guidance from those who pay the most or from those games they have personal wood for and end users are still somewhat less intelligent than the contents of my fridge.
People need to call a spade a spade (queue the flames from people who do not know what that phrase actually means) when they see it, but unfortunately the vocal majority in this field are so young, inexperienced and unversed in the medium that “discussion” sites are reduced to farce on an hourly basis.
19/07/2009 at 01:10 Deuteronomy says:
These trolls are rapidly becoming the most annoying thing on this site.
19/07/2009 at 07:46 freedom says:
But they’re overshadowned by the various fanboys who label anyone with a dissenting opinion to be a troll.
19/07/2009 at 11:43 Slippery Jim says:
@Howard
You seem to be making a few assumptions there. Still, I think you’re right about the prevalence of the problems with the game, as they are far more common than they should be. However, suffice to say I don’t think you’ll often find the average user who’s happy with the game coming onto the forums and mouthing off their sincere delight.
I believe the most farcical thing is the existence of the two extremes either side of the fence. There are those who are labelled “fanboys” for liking the game despite its quirks, and then there are the so-called “trolls” who simply won’t have anyone complimenting the game in any way without writing them off as a mere “fanboy” kiddy, moron, or somesuch.
Personally, I think the game’s good. If my PC were up to it I’d be able to play more than just small skirmishes, but I agree there are a lot of bugs, problems and some odd design decisions. Despite this, it’s still great fun and I don’t think that should be denied to those that can enjoy it.
Criticism of ARMA2 is definitely valid, but to say you have the sole valid opinion by saying you are “honest”, no one else is, and that the problems are exactly and objectively as severe as you put it (I still hope you were exaggerating,) is to be arrogant and, I dare say, deluded.
To say that you personally couldn’t play it without becoming too annoyed by the game and how it plays would be fine and honest. To say you are the only honest one is absurd indeed.
Also, these labels of “fanboy” and “troll” are overused and far too often generalised. Somehow, however, I don’t think ‘player who tried said game and came away with an informed positive/negative-weighted opinion’ will take off.
19/07/2009 at 12:25 dsmart says:
@ Jim
Here’s the thing, the game is buggy as hell, hardly runs, has LOTS of crashes, yet you say its good?
So, what exactly is the bar for “good” these days? I’m trying to understand how a game in this state, can be classed as being “good” without any sort of disclaimer, clarrification etc.
Anyone can spot a troll a mile off. If you can’t, then tell me what you think the point of “Nick’s” commentary was and what exactly it adds to the subject at hand.
We already know who the fanboys are, so there is no blurry line there. But you have to wonder, since I own OPF and Arma, does that make me a fanboy?
19/07/2009 at 12:32 Dominic White says:
If ArmA2 was bad, it wouldn’t have had me coming back with the same 15-20 guys every night for weeks, and playing until 2-4am in the morning, doing everything from realistic patrol scenarios to the RTS-style Warfare mode, and even comedy missions like a mountain bike race through a minefield, or an epic sheep-poaching expedition.
The bugginess of it all is exaggerated. We’ve encountered a few glitches here and there, and they’re annoying, but they’ve never stopped us from having a bloody good time, and an experience that no other game can offer.
And it’s always new and fresh, because every night, someone has found or made a new mission, or come up with something interesting for us to test, whether it’s something sensible like poking around mission scripting, or something retarded and hilarious like customized flying battleships with attached howitzers on the deck.
If it were a bad game, it wouldn’t be keeping a large number of grown men who should know better up so late that they’re practically zombified in the morning.
19/07/2009 at 12:34 Howard says:
@Slippery
This is the thing, I really have no problem distinguishing flamers from people behind it t with legitimate gripes of fanboys from those who merely enjoy the game.
If advocates of ARMA2 would just turn up and discuss the problems and – say it softly – admit it had flaws we’d be fine. Similarly if those that have problems would accept that they are *just* problems and not a reason to burn the game from their sight and salt the earth behind it, we’d all get on swell.
If the majority of people would actually pay attention they would in fact notice that people like myself ARE the advocates for BiS and their products. I have bought every game and add-on they have ever produced and will likely continue to do so but with every release I will drift back to the BiS forums and attempt to provide feedback on the (seemingly increasing) list of issues I have come across and promptly get cremated by the drooling “BiS can do no wrong! Burn the heretic!” brigade.
The problem with games of the scope of OFP/ARMA/ARMA2 is that they, I believe, succumb to the same problems that 3D animators face when rendering realistic humans. The closer we get to perfecting the techniques the easier it is for the entire experience to be brought to a crashing halt by what, in other games, might have been minor flaws. A sort of “uncanny valley” for AI and control mechanisms if you will.
19/07/2009 at 12:37 Howard says:
Odd. Post corrupted. First sentence should have read:
This is the thing, I really have no problem distinguishing flamers from people with legitimate gripes of fanboys from those who merely enjoy the game.
19/07/2009 at 12:59 Slippery Jim says:
@Dsmart
Here’s the thing, the game is buggy as hell, hardly runs, has LOTS of crashes, yet you say its good?
It’s buggy but also so very huge you can play intensively for days and not come across the same bug again. Notably, the SP campaign is shoddily built and the bugs it often showcases are not inevitable, and can be circumvented as the top-class community-made missions have shown. Yes BIS has made a pig’s ear of the campaign and other aspects, but running around in the editor with a few squads still has it’s simple joys.
Also it only hardly runs due to my ancient machine. Performance problems with top-spec machines are too common but not universal, so when it does run well this is not longer a factor for the player that subjectively judges it.
I haven’t come across any crashes yet, bar when I put my graphics settings up to full to get 0.1FPS.
Different people will have different ideas of “good”. Personally, I’m inclined towards the sort of game ARMA2 is, and so I enjoy it despite the faults. I’ll totally understand if someone says they couldn’t get to grips with it, however, as the problems that merely irk me may kill the game for them.
@Howard
I’d definitely agree with the “uncanny valley” analogy. Also, the BIS forums aren’t the best of places, I agree. It’s a shame that the minority are so vocal in their “BIS can do no wrong” attitude, but it is a minority. The Impressions thread is quite good for a mix of opinions about the game, but you have to ignore the reactions of the fans’ to the criticism.
19/07/2009 at 13:30 dsmart says:
@ Jim
You are making strawman arguments I think. The issue here is not the pleasures that are to be found if you can work around the bugs and the game’s problems. Just because you and your close friends are more tolerant enough to ignore those and still have a good time, does not negate the fact that it is one shoddily built and buggy as hell game. Just like the one before it.
In fact, there are no less than TWO threads right here on RPS alone in which we ALL predicted that this would be the case. Starting from that first German review. There were those saying “…oh noes!! BIS couldn’t possibly make the same mistake TWICE”. But they did.
And all over the Net, those who said they’d wait it out, proved themselves correct in that, yes, BIS DID in fact do it again.
If this is the kind of game you like and its the only game in town, of course you are able to look past the rough and just wing it. There is nothing wrong with that and as gamers we have conditioned ourselves – for the most part – to do just that.
Calling people who complain about the game trolls and those who vehemently defend it as fanboys, doesn’t help one bit.
19/07/2009 at 14:44 Slippery Jim says:
I think we may be talking at cross-purposes, here. I agree the game is shoddily built, and buggy. It’s also a marvel when it works. Indeed, I said I have no problem with those who cannot look past the bugs as I can, but we’re both equally valid gamers.
Just to make it clear: ARMA2 is a shoddily built and buggy game. But I love it! I can only offer my own opinion. Is there still an issue with what I am saying, Derek? I’m not sure I totally understood what your issue was.
19/07/2009 at 14:46 Slippery Jim says:
Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DLJPr2lyno
19/07/2009 at 14:48 dsmart says:
@ Jim
And yes, we are in agreement Jim.
I don’t have an issue and wasn’t speaking to you directly in most of my post. I was speaking in general terms once I got past the part of your post that I was referencing.
19/07/2009 at 16:39 dsmart says:
btw, apparently GameStop has pulled ArmaII from retail.
19/07/2009 at 16:44 dsmart says:
I did some checking into this, yep, its a fact alright. I guess they didn’t want a repeat of the last rubbish with ArmaA
19/07/2009 at 16:47 Howard says:
Interesting. Reading further into it it appears to be a distribution issue rather than a “we wont carry this game” issue.
19/07/2009 at 17:02 dsmart says:
Nope, neither Best Buy or GameStop will carry it. I didn’t get that from the forums, I got that through email from a reliable (as in: I know who he is) right here on RPS funny enough.
And I thought this was hilarious.
19/07/2009 at 17:04 dsmart says:
Forgot to add that I’m not surprised though. Trying to get a game into retail these days is a mess. Most retailers won’t even touch a PC only game. And those that will, want all sorts of concessions that in the end, it makes no sense to even do it.
I should know, we went through the same thing and I recently just gave up looking at shitty deals. Big announcement coming this week though, stay tuned. :)
19/07/2009 at 17:05 dsmart says:
Oh, if you’re looking to buy it before the .05 patch (you silly boy), GameTracker lists all the sites/retailers carrying it.
19/07/2009 at 19:39 SiUnit says:
The animations looked so awful my eyes hurt
20/07/2009 at 00:05 Howard says:
Wow…
104 comment thread discussing the virtues of trolls, fanboys, flamers and morons then SiUnit turns up.
Fuck me…
20/07/2009 at 00:42 dsmart says:
@ Howard
LMAO!!! Yah, its called progress. I think.
24/07/2009 at 11:49 cassus says:
What other people have said about the dumbing down, so fricken true. I’m pretty sure everyone who really loved the realism of Ofp and arma 1 and 2 are going to be disapointed, or maybe not disapointed, I think most of us have seen by now that this game is not made for us, rather the bunnyjumping Battlefield 2 fans out there.
Zomg! I’s like battelfild 2 wiff bigger maps!!!
I think it’s gonna be a middleground, just too tricky for the bf2 tards out there, and too dumb for people who love realism. The only guys who’ll really play this a lot i’m thinking will be the guys who dig the tank maps in Red Orchestra. And that’s almost 25 people! (Btw i’m not bashing red orchestra.)