By Alec Meer on August 14th, 2009 at 10:15 pm.
Good news everyone! All Points Bulletin, the upcoming cops’n'robbers MMO from Dave Jones, he of GTA and Crackdown fame, will not have a subscription fee. That’s right – it’s doing the Guild Wars thing, or at least something like it.
It’s as fascinating a move as it is welcome, especially given that this is an MMORPG that’s reportedly grind-free too. The classic MMO subscription model hasn’t worked out terribly well for the vast bulk of games seeking a piece of Warcraft pie, and in a few cases it’s even seemed that the pursuit of recurring payments has blinded MMOs to what they should be. Warhammer Online, for instance, would be better if it was solely a combat game, almost a fantasy Counter-Strike, rather than surrounding that with lacklustre PvE to pretend it was a true online world. Tabula Rasa could have been a great singleplayer RPG, but instead swathed itself in dull grind to try and justify monthly fees.
So, this strikes me as a bold statement that APB is about the game, not about the subscriber count. Hopefully it’s the first of many MMOs to discard the desire to WoW and get on with building something fresh.
Of course, it may well yet turn out to be full of nasty micro-payments or something, but I’ve got a good feeling about this. Jones and Real-Time Worlds demonstrated a healthy interest in letting people have fun with Crackdown, and I’m sure that underpinds APB too.
Confirmation of the monthly feelessness is on the new APB faq, first spotted by the eagle eyes at Eurogamer.
Additional: APB is now accepting beta applicants. Though it’s a sort of pre-registering interest thinger, so don’t convince yourself you’re definitely getting a place right off the bat.
Awesome.
Maybe they’ll open a marketplace/ebay for world created goods/weapons?
Hopefully the core game experience will stay the same regardless of what we buy [if they do that].
I have high hopes for this game; I can’t wait.
report
They just gained +2 sales, micropayment shinnanigans or no. The guild wars model means that any grind will be tutorially intended rather than bullshit money grabbing. I honestly don’t care about the micropayment advantage compared to my feelings that most monthly pay games are defective by design.
report
Just what I wanted to hear.
Applied for the beta- hope I get in!
report
Micro payments are fine, as long as it’s for things which do not distort pvp balance severely.
report
And then, suddenly, I was interested in this game.
The money’s not even the issue, it’s a comment about the design. By nature, fee-based MMO’s waste a LOT of your time. In the absence of a fee, I’ll be playing the game, instead of the other way around. This is superb news.
report
Great new. As Heliocentric said, we can now rest assured that filler material will be just that, filler, with none of the nasty feeling of being mugged while playing it.
report
That’s very interesting. I don’t mind paying a sum up front (I do it for every game), but paying monthly for grinding shit out tends to annoy me. They can focus more on having something that is immediately fun and not something you have to grind 30 hours for.
report
Yup, good news. Here’s hoping The Agency follows suit.
report
Fucking. SOLD.
Considering I’m starting university soon, and as such will be living one step above squalor to avoid becoming completely debt-ridden, the fact I’m not going to have to pay a sub for the one MMO I’m actually interested in is awesome.
report
Not only is this good news, but it makes sense. Especcially since past reports noted that every time you log on you will be placed on a random server, so your character will be persistent, but not so much the population and world around you.
report
Excellent. Now there is a chance of me playing it.
report
Truth is, its not even the monthly fee i have a beef with, its games designed to drain that monthly fee from you as long as possible. Eve with skills, WoW with all of its many forms of grinding.
Stop sharking the fucking playerbase and serve them.
I hope the few coming indie mmo’s get it. I’d love to invest into a mmo, but they are all designed around parting a fool and their money rather than being fun.
report
\o/
report
@Heliocentric
“Truth is, its not even the monthly fee i have a beef with, its games designed to drain that monthly fee from you as long as possible.”
Genuine question, not rhetorical: are there any fee-based MMO’s that don’t do that? I’d pretty much come to the conclusion that designers, whether consciously or not, were simply doomed to generate time wasters in fee-based MMO’s.
report
I saw some footage of APB running at the Eurogamer games careers fair last year.
They’re putting together a system which provides challenge and fun, by giving players on one faction a mission, then giving out missions to the other side to oppose the completion of that mission.
What was awesome about the demo I saw was that a ram-raid mission had been given to a group of 4 newbie players on the criminals faction, while the mission to stop them had been given to a high-level solo player on the enforcement faction.
Genius!
report
Guild wars would be one mmo like without the bullshit. But no, i think they all do it. I’m excited for Love though. And that mining mmo which was mentioned, but they themselves are not sure on the payment model.
report
I just want the spelunkey mmo with mass coop.
Imagine the carnage. Sorry man, i was just trying to dig up that gold, i didn’t mean to destroy your rope, make you drop your bomb and blow up a shop keeper who proceeded to kill the rest of your party and then accidentally shoot the other shop keeper leading to the only traders for 2 hours from hear being dead and the place littered with unexploded but unsafe bombs.
And now your mans are all permadead and 2 months of progress is gone. Also, sorry for looting you.
report
That makes buying the game a commitment. A commitment to buying all the future expansions so that the original purchase doesn’t become obsolete when the next ‘saga’ is released (e.g. try Guild Wars PvP with just the first campaign). It’s either that or walking into the purchase knowing it has a very finite shelf-life. Neither of which appeal.
report
+1 sale. Well done Real-Time Worlds.
report
@Jules
Hadn’t thought about that. And seeing as we can never overestimate the contempt with which companies treat their customers, I’d say you’re probably right.
The genius about it though is that we won’t be sure until they come out and announce it :
APB : San Vice Urbaville Expansion*
*buy it or prepare to leave the boat.
report
So, it’s bad if it has a subscription, it’s bad if there are expansions, it’s bad if there’s a cash-shop…
So, are we just writing off anything beyond about 64 players on private servers, or are we going to be grownups here and realise that massively multiplayer games have to be funded somehow?
report
@Dominic
Most folks here don’t think expansions are a bad thing. Cash shops… can be done well and can be done badly, but I wouldn’t rule out a game as a result of having one.
Subscription fees, on the other hand, actively change the way a game is designed and ultimately played. So yes, those are bad.
report
Expacks are, in general, good things. Except when they have DLC content at Expack prices (Re: Company of Heroes: Tales of Valor, World in Conflict: Soviet Assault) or ruin everything (Warhammer 40K: DoW: Soulstorm).
Subscription fees are never good. Ever. For any reason.
The only MMOs I show any kind of interest in are those with a total lack of subscription fees, and even those fail to hold my interest by maintaining standard MMO tropes, which I detest.
report
Lets hope the new star wars mmo follows suit… though i highly doubt it. Unless ive got money and time to burn i dont think ill be buying it. This game however is now on my radar, ill wait to see if it ends up like alot of asian free to play mmo where the kid with moms credit card is basically invincible.
Ive played swg, coh, wow, lotro, I realized it was the mmo formula that i didn’t like. Canceled all my subs and tend to keep them at arms length. If a new game looks interesting then i find out its a pay to play mmo i drop it right there. I prefer a single player rpg where ther is other people around you and you can choose to interact with them or not but you aren’t forced,
report
I might actually get this, then. I refuse to play anything with a monthly fee.
report
Awesome. Probably one of the more exciting games presently in development. Beta application firmly submitted, this is a game that deserves support.
report
Hell, I’d buy it for the character creator. Excellent news.
report
WOO-HOO!
report
Add a demo, and they might even get a sale.
@Heliocentric: Roguelike real-time MMO? Ouch. Were MUDs ever so brutal?
report
OZOM NIOOZ!
In all seriousness though I’m constantly surprised at how few emulators the guild wars models has. Hopefully this is the signs that things are about to change.
report
I hope you said that in your best Professor Farnsworth voice. :)
report
An applaudable move! I had my eye on this one already, now I’m twice as keen on it.
Microtransactions are bound to be included somewhere. This game is ripe for them, I mean look how impressive the character customisation is!
report
This news + awesome character generation = ME SOLD.
report
Wow! I might actually have to buy this now. I can’t stand subscription based games…
report
http://kotaku.com/5337506/apb-beta-application-a-little-nosey
Oh noes!! the Kotaku snark police apparently don’t like the beta sign up questions…
:rolls eyes:
report
http://kotaku.com/5337506/apb-beta-application-a-little-nosey
Oh noes!! the Kotaku snark police apparently don’t like the beta sign up questions…
report
Is this actually an MMORPG? It keeps getting that label here, and maybe elsewhere, but all I’ve seen is the “MMO” part – plus a healthy dose of character customization and cosmetic “upgrades”. Aside from gear and bling, it looks like a shooter of some variety. Anyone know?
report
“Oh noes!! the Kotaku snark police apparently don’t like the beta sign up questions…”
Come on, I hate kotaku’s bottom-of-the-barrel posters as much as the rest of us, but those questions were flat-out out of line. How many children do you have? Are you married? Do you own a house?! And most of those were mandatory!
report
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
report
Good to hear. I think the monthly fee concept is dying a slow death anyway, with the humungous juggernaut that is WoW towering over the rest of the market.
Also, I hate the feeling that I ‘have’ to be playing a game on a regular basis because I’m sinking 10-15 bucks in it every month, and I’m sure I’m not the only one. But maybe that is exactly why it makes the concept work for the legions of (respectfully) WoW addicts?
/needs sleep
report
Dave Jones already said ‘no subscription model’ in that (excellent) interview posted here a month ago.
report
They’re pretty typical demographic survey questions for market research. So much so that in filling it I almost forgot that beta testers were asked to… you know… test the game.
report
@Shalrath
Out of line? If it helps them gauge the range of their demographic how is that in any way bad?
report
I’d guess that a lot of those questions are aimed at providing information to sell in game advertising.
Which is fine; a bunch of half naked ladies on an Axe/Lynx poster never hurt anybody.
report
Sweet.
Not really sure what to expect from this, but I’m crossing my fingers.
report
All I can say to this is: YES! I was really hoping it wouldn’t, as I doubt I will ever be able to afford a full-blown MMO with full-blown sub fees, and my wish has come true. This game is looking better and better.
report
@Shalrath: actually, the only obligatory questions when i registered were:
- full name
- E-mail
- gender
- birthday
- address
- various info about your system(s) and gaming habits.
Either someone (kotaku) are getting their panties in a bunch over nothing, or they changed the application…
report
and once again someone nicked the edit button…*grumble*
anyways, just wanted to add:
Yay for no subscription! Good to know I will be able to afford at least one study-time killer that semester.
Also: maybe they’ll actually get somewhat big and make people understand that monthly subs aren’t the only way…
report
Well, that certainly captures my attention.
report
This might actually be the first MMO I jump into. I’ve been toying around with buying Guild Wars but I despise grind of all shapes.
report
radical rabbit
report
I actually noticed the nosiness. I was filling stuff out, and was like wait… Marital status? Homeownership? How on earth is this any of their business? So I skipped it.
report
Pretty sure theres some major issues with US games based advertising in the UK and possibly other european territories. So the questions might be different depending on what country you’ve listed yourself as being resident in.
report
Maybe they just want too check you have kids and a house, so they can kidnap the kids and send the ransom demanding you buy any expansion packs too your house?
report
I LOVE YOU APB <3
report
I just wonder how there going to pay for it, Guild Wars paid there server costs by bringing out lots of expansions and trying to make a lot of people buy it. The reason for monthly fees is that the guys making it have to pay for the server and other costs like art and graphics and stuff like that.
report
This type of games are not popular (Action-MMO) so this may really help having the server with enough people.
OFF-TOPIC NOTE: Wolf Team is surprising fun.
report
@Xercies sure, also massive profit. But “art and stuff” like that is not a persistent cost. Server costs can be reduced by instancing ala guild wars, but then your hack protection is junk because you cannot do without a stream of server randoms and complete transaction logs. If the randoms are from a public seed they can be pre announced. If you totally abandon randoms you make things like loot generation much more complicated, unless you don’t have loot. Indeed, the usual mmo trappings are just that, traps developers fall into.
So, without loot, or xp to grind whats an mmo? Lots of other players, hell is other people. :p
report
Welcome Kindergarten .. :/
report
I saw an article somewhere a while ago that Battlefield: Heroes has been a pretty huge success. People seem very willing to pay for minor convenience perks and/or character outfits in an otherwise free game.
That seems to be the way that MMOs are moving, and I think it’s a pretty great direction to move in. Let the casual folks (like me) have their fun for free, but the more hardcore types can have their goodies and keep the servers running for the rest of us.
There’s a growing number of actually *good* free w/ cash-shop MMOs too. Atlantica Online is probably the best at the moment – while the production values on it aren’t amazing, the gameplay is some of the most fun I’ve had in an MMO.
That’s really the key to keeping people playing – not grind, but fun. If the core gameplay is entertaining and deep enough to encourage long-term play, people will stick around.
report
apb isn’t an mmo.
report
Good, it’ll be all the better for that.
report
I’ve seen it referred to as an MMO everywhere – even in this article. According to the FAQ on the official site, it’s the closest match they can find, although they seem to be looking for a more specific definition.
report
Massively multiplayer online.
No mention of grinding, subscriptions, xp or looting in that definition.
Why is this not an mmo? Is planetside not an mmo?
report
It’s not an MMO because it doesn’t have elves. Like, duh.
report
You mean there is no ear pointiness slider? Stupid consolified rubbish.
report
Holy crap, its a pwns!
report
@The Sombrero Kid:
true that, RealtimeWorlds themselves keep referring to it as an “MOG”.
Seems like there’s nothing but good news about APB, I had already decided to buy it when we first saw that character creator, but more and more it seems like it may be a real winner. Hell of a lead designer heading up the team anyway.
And er.. @ those complaining about the beta signup questions.. you do realise that applying for a beta is totally voluntary right? They can ask whatever they want.
If there was similar questions(that were actually mandatory) in say, the final game, maybe I would give a shit but otherwise…
report
It’s a fresh move. Free + David Jones, I think this will blow up
report
They just sold +1 copy. I was very much considering it. Now, with no subscription, it’s a must have.
I also signed up to beta, yay!
report
Yay MMO without fees!
Wait, it doesn’t have fees because it’s isn’t a MMO. I mean massive, the last thing i read from this game (mm i think it was here in rps) pointed that is all heavily instanced. There isn’t any big city with thousands of players fighting and driving and trading with needs uber expensive servers to pay. That’s why it doesn’t have monthly subscriptions.
report
I was under the impression that they were going for micro-transaction. Maybe I just heard it on the APB forums. :<
report
woop!
that is all.
report
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
report
Ok, that’s it. I’m now buying this game no matter what.
report
Yea, another sale. I always thought subscription fees where strange. If a server really costs YOU 14 dollars per month per player to run (Maybe the netcode is bad, who knows), I’d rather host it myself. So this is a welcome change… I didn’t really feel like buying this at first, but now the acronym mmo has lost the annoying part of tis meaning, I’m in.
report
The faq answers alot of what people are saying. Server limits are 10,000, with hundreds of “district maps”. The social district maps hold 250 and the combat ones take 100 each. So basically instanced combat zones, although the social zones seem a bit wierd 250 people is still quite alot.
As for being an MMO “[talking about gameplay aspects] We’re still working out how to describe that in a three letter acronym, suggestions welcome.”
Im quite sold and honestly, paying £20ish for an expansion is two months of a standard pay monthly mmo, and the average expansion takes atleast 6 months if not a year to get released. I think they figured assuming the cash input from initial sales is enough they can expac every 6 months or so and it’d still work out much cheeper for the user than the standard model. Assuming the expac is worth it i’d pay for it, otherwise a £30ish game would have lasted me 6 months which is pretty decent.
report
I’ll buy it just to support the idea of no subscription fees.
report
I liked the Guild Wars model – I actually bought the expansion packs to support them – I only ever played one char through to 20 then parked the game until the next pack … surprised that more haven’t gone down the same model.
report
Aw, you removed your shot at the Housers. That’s too bad. It was well-deserved.
report
Yeah, it’s true as well. He IS nicer than the Housers :)
report
Subscriptions were fine until they became metaphorically, criminal. WoW was worth £9 a month in 2005 when content updates were very frequent. WoW from 2006 onwards was a kick in the teeth, especially for PvPers and charging for the expansions, basically the content they should have been working on as subscription-fed stuff, was the epitome of unjustified profiteering. But we still bought it anyway, even if almost all the significant content did not actually require a large server infrastructure maintaining hundreds of persistent online worlds.
Tempted by this, if only for the pricing policy at the moment.
report
@SteveHatesYou
Good spot. I must admit I was surprised at the hostility tbh, but I guess its a diplomatic move in case further down the road the Housers ever deign to spare RPS an interview or two (odds slim to none I suspect). Personally I’m hoping if that ever occurs the first question posed will be ‘So when exactly do you intend to get some proper writers in for your games?’. GTA IV; $100 million budget game, plot & characterisation written on the back of a fag packet…
Anyway digs at R* aside. I’m looking forward to APB. The fact that the experience isn’t heavy on the grind is the biggest appeal to me. I simply don’t have the spare time to pour endless hours into levelling up, simply to ensure I can play at the same level as my friends (it is a lot of ridiculous hoop jumping if they think about it), but at the same time like the appeal of a online game world that offers a degree of character persistence. I think its a fascinating premise and I’m really hoping I get into the beta.
report
This is probably going to be the best thing that ever came out of dundee…. screw marmalade, whale oil, oor wullie, the dandy and marmalade…. we want APB!
report
I’m going to be playing this, without a single flinch, second thought, or moment’s hesitation. I’ve squandered bags of money on MMOs in the past only to wish that I’d never traveled down that dark road, but in this, I see at least the chance to take another possible road without regret.
report
One thing I do like the sound of is that the developers have mentioned expanding this game ‘sideways’ over time rather than in the traditional linear fashion. In most online games, expansions are new levels, new higher-level gear and weapons, stuff to work towards. In one interview with the devs, I saw them mention that they’d like to actually expand APB to support stuff like superhero-type characters (ala Crackdown) or zombie invasions and such.
I’d love to see that. A team of a dozen well-armed crooks on a bank-heist mission, coming out of the building only to find that they’ve sent goddamn *robocop* after them.
report
(Curse you, lack of edit function)
And of course, the flipside would be a marauding supervillain of some description, with a large force of ordinary cops trying to bring him to justice.
report
My problem with subscriptions is that I always have to buy the game and expansions on top of them. I might be willing to give Blizzard $15 a month for at least a little while while I try out the game and see what the big deal is, but when I have to pay $80 to buy the game and expansions to earn the right to give them my money, that’s just a smack in the face.
Looking forward to APB.
report
I don’t think it’s an intentional design meant to “waste” people’s time. What is now known as “the grind” was supposed to be the fun part.
Somehow people collectively decided that games aren’t fun until you max out your level, that the endgame is the only “real” game and the rest of it is just training and/or a waste of time.
This makes me sad. I have zero interest in the endgame. It’s the journey, not the destination that matters.
report
Yeah, a lot of people just get hooked on making numbers slowly go up. Just look at the huge success of achievement/trophy systems on the 360/PS3. A lot of folks refused to buy older PS3 games until they patched in trophy support – such is the appeal of arbitrary numerical progression.
Personally, I think they’ll all insane, but I know I’m in the minority here. Maybe I’m the crazy one.
report
This just went from ‘maybe’ to ‘fuck yeah’.
@Dominic:
Yeah, a lot of people just get hooked on making numbers slowly go up … Personally, I think they’ll all insane, but I know I’m in the minority here.
Yeah, but listen: this one goes up to eleven. Eleven
report
I cant contain my excitement seriously! (Go look at the comments on MMO Champion!) This is a game that ive been following and Im really impressed by your decision of make this a subscription free MMO. Just shows that the company really wants to focus on providing a quality game that will appeal to the players rather than making it all about money. Greeds blinds people or in this case devs. Its all about the game not the money! May you be the pioneers on the subscription free MMOs! (Yes I know about guild wars and played it but its almost dead now ;’( )
Where others have failed you will succeed!
Good luck with everything in the future!
Mauro
PS: Can I start queueing up for the game’s launch? :P
report
An audio interview released today seems to confirm one aspect of their business model (scroll down a bit to find it, the interview is in English): http://guido.posterous.com/apb-interview-mit-ej-moreland-design-lead-von
At 7:10 in the interview, the interviewer asks the lead designer of APB if players will sell custom creations (clothing, decals, etc.) for in game or real money. The APB dev dodges the question saying he can’t talk about their business model yet. That says to me they’ll be letting players sell created content for real money and taking a percent of each sale.
Personally, I also expect some kind of in-game advertising (hey, it fits the setting, so as long as it’s not too obnoxious); and they’ll obviously charge for extra content they make post release (they’ve mentioned racing and a zombie mod as just two possibilities).
report
i feel the same way. i hate subscription fees, so i go looking for free MMOs, but ALL of them suck. they all have the same problems which make them incredibly boring. and none of them are unique.
report
Old post but subscription fees have now been confirmed. It’s about £8 a month
report
i just checked the faq and this guy is completely wrong this game is subscription based it is 9$ a month or u can pay by the hour.
report