By Jim Rossignol on September 9th, 2009 at 8:23 am.
Via PAX, there’s some Dark Carnival footage below. And man, is that jockey infected looking a bit nasty. Personally I’ve always preferred playing infected in L4D, so I’ll enjoy making the worst out of that fella. For the survivors there’s some skull-splattering melee action. Eugh, zombies are icky.
Looks good. Smells like… Left4Dead DLC.
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Is it November yet? Can’t wait.
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That new special infected is doing inappropriate thins to the survivor’s heads…
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cannot wait for ELFORDEETOO me.
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@MeatCircus – See this is why I think DLC is a bloody terrible, because it gives the mistaken impression that a ‘true’ sequel must have a completely new engine, entirely reimagined gameplay and indeed, only trace elements of the original in there. If it doesn’t, the complaints come flooding in ‘this is just a money-grab, this should have been DLC!’ and the obligatory dumbgamer battlecry ‘I WILL ONLY PAY 10 BUCKS FOR THIS’.
I remember the days when an entirely new set of maps, weapons and a few extra bells and whistles thrown in did constitute a sequel, where a sequel was merely an improved version of the original game with enough different content to justify the sale, as opposed to some Renaissance of Reinvention.
I can only imagine the bitching were today’s generation of Cheap-ass Gamers around when Doom 2 came out. IT’S ONLY GOT 1 NEW WEAPON!!
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@TotalBiscuit – That’s fine and dandy, but Valve has set the precedent with TF2 post-release content. I paid $20 for a game that’s worth $100+ (imo) with all the updates and new content they’ve released, and looking across the pond at L4D gamers, they seem to be getting the short end of the stick. $50 at release time, ~3 basic weapons, and one playing style – shoot things. Unless you’re already (un)dead. A sequel, another $50, so soon?
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Oh god, a L4D2 post this early in the day? This wont possibly end well…
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I’m boycotting this thread.
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So why do Valve love TF2 more than anything to date(I think)? Is it its most played game?
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How about we focus on the actual content of the videos rather than pointless wanking about something irrelevant like the game’s release form.
And the gameplay does look wonderful indeed, I still think the Spitter’s the best thing to come out in the sequel. Goodbye to lame and boring corner tactics! Not too bothered about the melee weapons but more variety’s never a bad thing.
What I’d like to know though if all the different guns, eg all the assault rifles/SMGs, have different properties or are they just reskins of eachother for different campaigns.
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@MD
Well I’m boycotting your posts, so there.
Also I’m totally paying for this. This new stuff totally changes the game, especially with the Spitter’s acid thingy.
Maybe they’ll add a super hard mode to the original Left4Dead, to further separate the two games.
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@Aisi And that is why we cannot have nice things, unreasonable expectations. If a developer does something out of the ordinary and provides after-launch support and updates way above and beyond what could have been reasonably expected of them, then some gamers seem to think that they HAVE to provide that level of support on every single title going forward.
It’s nonsense, no developer could be reasonably expected to do that. TF2 is the exception, not the rule and anyone who claims they didn’t get their money’s worth out of L4D and then goes on to bitch about the sequel is mad. Why would you even have any interest in the sequel if that were the case and if you did get your money’s worth, then why would you bitch about the sequel anyway? You got what could be reasonably expected out of the game in terms of price/performance, so to expect yet more content for nothing out of Valve is unreasonable and unrealistic.
Valve didn’t set a precedent at all, they did things differently on ONE game to see how it would pan out. TF2 is for all intents and purposes a marketting ploy. They’ve said it themselves, it gives them a constant stream of promotion and the internet goes nuts everytime they release an update. L4D doesn’t have that same charm nor the same enthusiasm behind it to generate that kind of traffic or sales, so it would not serve it’s purpose. Folks may wish to believe that Valve are ‘just like us’ but at the end of the day, they are a company out to make money and we as the consumer have the right to buy, or not buy, depending on the quality of their product. That’s as far as it goes and no amount of butthurt or crying from gamers who feel ‘betrayed’ by Gabe and Co is going to change that.
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Jockey looks ace!
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@TotalBiscuit – I agree that people shouldn’t have any expectations beyond the release material on game, but the argument that most boycotters use is that valve -promised- more weapons and infected and tf2 like updates on the original game.
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Hopefully they’ll tweak it so that baseball bats aren’t just shotguns with a range of a few feet.
Otherwise, looking good.
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Except in this case the developer claimed they would be providing TF2-level of support. Anyway.
This looks nice. I’m still undecided as to whether or not I’ll get this, but it looks nice.
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@Flint – It looks like the shotgun in the first trailer has a slightly slower firerate, but a little more kick than the combat shotgun from the first game.
@Ybfelix – I’d be pretty surprised if TF2 was the most played Valve game. CS or CS:S would hold that title, easily.
TotalBiscuit speaks the truth. People have been swallowing minor graphical updates and slight improvements from EA and Konami with FIFA and Pro Evo for years, KOEI have done the same with the Dynasty/Samurai/Orochi Warriors titles, id did the same with Doom, and I don’t see anyone lining up to boycott their games. If you’re going to boycott L4D2, you’re going to find yourself boycotting an awful lot of very good games from the last 15 years, unless you want to be a hypocrit.
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Spoiled Gamer Tears are the most delicious variety, aren’t they?
If it’s not worth list price in your opinion then don’t buy it at list price. L4D was worth $30 to me so I bought it there. I’ll probably buy L4D2 at a discount, too, because it’ll be another one trick pony and I’d rather that money on some nice steaks or something like that.
Curiously enough, I rather hate the Infected, and always enjoyed Campaign mode much more than vs. It’s something about the bitchiness that competitive play brings to the game.
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I think these discussions would benefit from us determining exactly what we think a fair price for L4D2 is. If we can come to value with a decent rationale, perhaps Valve will read this comments thread and the controversy will come to an end.
We should start by putting a price on each discrete element of the game: characters, concepts, dialogue, guns, levels, matchmaking, melee weapons, music, setting, zombies (common, uncommon common & special) should be enough to be getting on with.
Having assigned an agreed upon value to each of these elements abstractly, we can then apply them to the concrete implementations that we have thus far observed in L4D2 through the currently available media, tallying up a cumulative worth for the product as a whole.
Then we can divide that number by three or four because it’s Valve and they are basically a gigantic charity organisation which produces games of exacting quality out of the goodness of their hearts who not only have infinite money and resources but also signed a blood pact with each of us back in November to support L4D to at least the extent of how TF2 (specifically) has since been supported and none of us would have purchased it then had we known otherwise.
Does that sound good?
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Perhaps my memory is in error but it looks like the way melee weapons work has changed. Early previews suggested that once you’d picked up an axe or whatever you couldn’t just swap between it and your main gun, you had to discard the melee weapon to get your shootie on. Now it looks like the survivors are channelling Gordon Freeman and his ninja skillz at carrying half a ton of weaponry without breaking into a sweat. If so that’s a pity, changes an interesting tactical choice into just another weapon in the inventory.
The other thing that struck me about these clips was it all seemed a bit easy but perhaps that’s the default setting for game journalists. Jockey looked fun though.
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On the subject of DLC/Sequel. Because of the complicated ai involved here and the fact that every human input changes how the game is played, it’s extremely difficult to make small changes to the core game.
So valve was placed with a dilemma. Deliver bad updates to a allready good game, or create the next chapter with a new story, new characters, new challanges, etc etc.
And thuss having to make huge changes not only with the appearance but even more to the AI.
So crappy DLC or a better game with a pricetag..
Well I’d gladly pay for quality.
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@Ansob Promises mean next to nothing in this business. I’m surprised many gamers haven’t picked up on a very simple principle for smart game buying yet and that is this…
“Buy a game on the merits of what is in the box, not what might be in the box a year from now”.
On the subject of the videos, I’m not seeing anything particularly exciting here. The setting is nice and the action looks solid, but I’m more interested in seeing how the ‘gauntlet’ segments work and whether or not the AI can in fact force you down different paths depending on your performance. Oh and the weather and how that affects the gameplay, show that too.
One more thing. What bloody use is a silenced machine-pistol against zombies? Why would it be silenced?
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I can’t wait. I can’t wait. I can’t wait. Still playing L4D, still having the best game experiences of my life.
These got me more excited about the melee weapons:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iojGoAJdNLA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7xi3hvOclA
That fire axe is off the hook!
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The other thing that struck me about these clips was it all seemed a bit easy but perhaps that’s the default setting for game journalists.
Oh it was definitely on ‘easy’ (which is almost laughable). The way those people/bots play is so unhinged that they couldn’t survive anything other than that. Also, that tank went down insanely fast.
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This axe looks so sexy.
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@TotalBiscuit One more thing. What bloody use is a silenced machine-pistol against zombies? Why would it be silenced?
Only played L4D once but IIRC Zombies react to loud sound. Maybe combined with melee weapon, you can play L4D2 stealthier.
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I want my silenced shotgun.
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oh, and my silenced grenade launcher with extra muffling on the explosive.
Silenced helicopter would also be handy.
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Here’s a question for the panel. With L4D especially, why are these preview videos always of the 360 version rather than PC? I can understand it for more “pure” multiformat releases like Batman: Andy’s Asylum, but L4D is at the very least a 50/50 audience split between 360 and PC, if not being more heavily on PC.
Does Valve get a retainer from Microsoft to promote the 360 version in promo videos? Or do they themselves feel that the 360 version is the one that needs the extra promotion?
It just seems odd to me, since the game looks far, far worse than it ought to.
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“Why are these preview videos always of the 360 version rather than PC?”
Because it’s easier to carry 360s to the events the game is shown at.
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@Tbfelix, that’s exactly what I was thinking when I saw silenced guns, a more stealthy approach for taking out zombies that do react to loud noises. It would be especially nice if in L4D2 that zombies reacted to all noises based on their volume rather than specific loud noises like in L4D (i.e. exploding petrol stations would have a bigger effect on the horde than screeching metal scissor lifts do, unlike in L4D where the opposite is true).
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Nice to see some reasonably competent players though, compared to previous videos.
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@Jim
Aren’t these pre-recorded videos that are taken to events though? Wouldn’t it be easier to bring a DVD?
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lol what? reasonably competent? Surely it was on easy, the post-boomer horde was pathetic, as for the tank…
I presumed it was a console version given how crap the protagonist was.
Anyway, looks ‘meh’, will buy it hough of course.
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If I were to show off my game I’d want it to look as good as possible. Thus showing it on a pc.
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As I mentioned in the previous L4D2 post, they are again showing rather lame players on a very easy difficulty. Everyone there was charging around, hardly taking notice of what everyone else was doing. I still worry that anyone who has been playing L4D for any extended amount of time on Expert is going to stroll through the campaign mode with no trouble.
I still haven’t seen any evidence that the changes are really going to make a big difference to the tricks everyone uses already. Again, we have a video of a Spitter against people mindlessly charging around. If the Spitter is meant to be used against people who camp why aren’t they showing videos of him actually dealing with this situation? The Tank went down very easily to the same old trick (set him on fire, pummel him with the shotgun.) I know this is on easy mode, but even on expert the Tank doesn’t last long against a team with auto-shotguns.
The changes that I really need to see made (all fairly simple) are really limiting the number of med-kits on each level (Versus was always irritating when the Survivors suddenly became full on health and still had a couple of med-kits spare – on expert campaign there probably shouldn’t be any outside of safe room), limit the number of weapons that are at weapon drops so that the whole team doesn’t carry auto-shotguns, able to alter difficulty on Versus (some slight tweaking to damage may be needed, some servers did have altered difficulty on the original but hunters caused far too much damage, so this needs to be made official and balanced.) I also wouldn’t mind seeing ammo being limited at the ammo stashes, particularly on Survival mode. Camping near a stash was far to easy, so forcing the players to move away from it when the ammo runs dry would be a nice change. Most of all, Versus needs to be returned to way it was original meant to be. Survivors should rarely finish a level, and if they do there should only be a couple left. Versus was meant to be a race to see who could get the furthest in the level, but nowadays everyone always finishes. I appreciate that it is tough to make it work so that Infected isn’t just you spamming the Survivors until they die and it should reward a well executed attack, but it is far to in the favour of the Survivors at the moment.
I do like the look (or at least sound) of the changes they are making. The gauntlet part of levels will really make some interesting moments (I imagine they are a bit like the corn fields from the original, by far the best moment of the game) and the new infected look really interesting. They all seem to be following a similar role as the Smoker, which makes sense as he was the most flawed of the Infected. In some ways, he seems a bit pointless now and might as well be removed.
I probably will be purchasing this as soon as I see it for a price below the magic £20 mark.
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Get a job! Then earn some money and stop complaining about L4D2 being released so soon. Just because you had to sell a kidney to afford the original…
Whether it had a new engine or not, whether it has a huge expanse of new game modes, or special infected, or weaponry, or none of those things, it doesn’t matter. It’s more L4D, and that alone makes it worth the asking price.
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Probably won’t buy for one simple reason; ReDead flashbacks :’(
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@ Vandelay
I have been playing L4D for about 8 months, mostly on expert and I think L4D2 us going to be ALOT more difficult.
Firstly the spitter, whilst your right that the footage so far has shown little of it preventing camping, it will come into its own in finales. For example you wont be able to just sit in one of the rooms in the cottage during Blood Harvest, or the closet in Dead Air.
The Jockey and Charger also look well designed to split a party up, the Jockey in particular looks deadly at this. If you are seperated from the group in expert you are as good as dead.
Also the crescendo events are now designed to keep the party moving. So where as in the L4D1 No Mercy elevator event you might just camp in the room opposite the lift this will not be possible in L4D2. For example one event requires someone to trigger a boat to carry the survivors across a lake, there is however no time for the person who triggered the event to reach the boat, so the survivors must make two trips. Again there is emphasis on splitting the party up.
Lastly i think the real increase in difficulty will come from the new combinations of special infected. Imagine being jockeyed into a witch or a tank. A smoker dragging you into a pool of Spitter vomit.
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@ Vandelay, re: gauntlets…if you have the time, you should check out the custom campaign Heaven Can Wait. It has a gauntlet part in a multi-storey car park that is pretty well done.
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@ Vandelay: I think the guy was playing single player, with 3 AI bots as the other Survivors. They had the character names, and just the general manner of them (i.e. all spread out, running off on their own) looked exactly the same as when you’ve got AI members on your team whilst waiting for a latecomer to join.
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I’m sorry but the videos look identical to a game I bought early this year. A game that was extremely fun, had innervative ideas, gave me many hours of playtime but eventually became rather tedious. And now they release practically the same game and call it a sequel. But but but the original became very tedious, why would I want to re-buy the same game with a couple of extra weapons and a map or two?
@TotalBiscuit
I feel a good example of something similar would be if WoW sold “Arena” as a “New optional Paid addon to WoW”…. then charged again for Season 2.
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@Duffin – Absolutely, I completely agree that the new infected sound like they will really spice things up. We just haven’t seen much evidence of this in the videos shown.
I think that this is more down to the fact that the only videos we have seen are ones with random people playing. Some slightly more “engineered” videos maybe better at showing off the parts of the game I want to see. Also, the effectiveness of these Infected would probably be most notable in Versus mode, when, as you say, you can combine them.
@Rinox – Cheers for the tip. Not really played much L4D since the release of the Survival pack, so I haven’t had a chance to try out the custom campaigns. I had pretty much burned the game out. Not to say I didn’t get my money’s worth out of, as I played it pretty solidly between the release date and then, but I just had little incentive to go back for more, except for the odd game of Survival mode (which didn’t keep me interested for long, as it encouraged the camping aspect of the game.) That is probably why I’m wary about L4D2 and really hope that the changes are enough to make me want to go back for more and stay for another couple of months. Looks promising, but I really want to play a demo before I’m absolutely certain.
@Gabanski83 – Good point. That would certainly explain why there is no teamwork going on.
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Looks good.
To bad i payed 50$ for what was basically beta version of this game.
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I also feel, judging by them videos that the damage on the zombies isnt as good and well placed in relation to where and how you shoot/damage them.
For example he hits a zombie in the back with a baseball bat and the zombies arms fall off.
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@Catastrophe: L4D has had pretty jerky animation and bad hit detection since release – this isn’t new. I am disappointed to see that little appears to have changed in the sequel, tho.
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For those claiming this is little more than ‘DLC’
I give you:
Doom2 and Final Doom
Now shut up.
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@ Catastrophe – But you don’t really get “a couple of extra weapons and a map or two”.
There are more weapons than the original, more campaigns than the original. Plus the uncommon commons and 3 new special infected aswell as the as yet unanounced game mode.
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Anybody else chuckle when they saw the charger in one instance run away from the survivors? Haha, it’s just fun to see a lumbering hulk slowly run away. Ironic?
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I only bought the first one a month ago and am still getting the hang of it, but do absolutely love it.
In my opinion I think L4D2 might be the difference between DoD and DoD:Source – the sequel not being sufficiently superior to entice me away from the original for anything longer than the odd game here and there.
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EXPERIMENTAL GAMEPLAY:
Clean the zombie skins from blood and stuff, and make so look like normal people, maybe a bit dirty.
Replace all the zombiesque “GRRRrrrrzzz” sounds by “Please help me”. “Can you help me!”, and “Hello!
Instant POSTAL Total Modification :-)
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For once is good to see a video with half-decent players (maybe better players than myself).
Is painfull to see bad players in L4D.
It looks Ok. I hope It plays fun. I see two new toys: intefected “headfucker” and infected “green good railgun”. Hare these two playable in versus?
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Looks awesome, will buy.
Angry internet men be dammed!
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@Castastrophe – That’s a terrible analogy. Firstly you’re comparing a subscription based game where constant new content is reasonably expected in return for the monthly fee, to an off-the-shelf title with no monthly fee, so that’s a fatal flaw in your reasoning.
Secondly, arenas are a game-type, not a game in their own right. You can’t argue that the release of arena within WoW with a fee is the same as releasing an entirely new stand-alone game, even if it’s a sequel with a lot of similarities to it’s predecessor. In terms of arenas within WoW, most of the mechanics are identical to the rest of the game, the game-type is based on an existing title to the point where all of the assets it uses, whether they be in terms of gameplay, art, sound, you name it.
Let’s even then, for the sake of argument, say that the analogy holds up (it doesn’t). Thirdly, arenas are not comparable to fully-fledged L4D campaigns, the difference in the sheer amount of content there is astronomical. There is no AI in arenas, there are no scripted events, design concerns are at a bare minimum.
And lastly, Season 1 and Season 2 arena introduced nothing more than some new art assets for gear. They did not introduce new arena maps, they did not introduce new mechanics, they did not introduce new enemies to fight, they did basically nothing to change the state of the game in any meaningful or significant way.
So yeah, that’s why that analogy doesn’t work and we should never speak of it again.
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@Aisi
“but Valve has set the precedent with TF2 post-release content. I paid $20 for a game that’s worth $100+ (imo) with all the updates and new content they’ve released”
Whilst they may not have made new hats for it, the original HL/TFC/TF1.5 was given just as much after-care support as TF2 is getting. Sure, there were no achievments, but virtually every update had a new map, or updated the models in some way. Also, surely TF2 has only one play style: Shoot thing?
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@Pod There is also Build Thing and Heal Thing.
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@Total
And Stab Thing, and Kill It With Fire
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@Psychopomp
And Eat Thing
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The fact remains that we get a couple of new skins for the players, a couple new super-zombies, a couple new levels and a couple new weapons. The core game stays the same and I’m supposed to pay the full price for this after buying L4D? Never. I would have bought this as an expansion or expansion priced game, bout 25 euros at most, but not as a full title. L4D V.2
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@TotalBiscuit
Nah, I didn’t mention the subscription as it was not a part of the point I was making.
The point I was making was the differences between Arena and Arena season 2 (and 3 and so on) is similar to the differences between L4D and L4D2. A slightly over exagerated point but it was an easier way to put in words what I’m thinking.
The way L4D has been created and the premise behind the game – Small levels made with identical goals get from A to B alive using X, Y, Z weapons – Is not far off Arena – small levels with identical goals per match, kill A, B, C using X, Y, Z. Its not a mission based, story driven game, its more like a tournament style game. Maybe a better example would be Counter Strike Source. If they tried to release a CS: S2 and it was literally CS: S with a few more maps and a couple of new weapons, as a full price game. 3rd party maps are well spread and free, and theres no new “Missions” on CS: S as each match has identical goals. Disarm bomb/Stop bomb being disarmed or Save hostages/Stop hostages from being saved.
This is purely my opinion and what is holding me back on purchasing L4D2. I’m not a definate no, but at the moment I feel this is a “New season of L4D, for £45″.
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After all that, my point is- i’m kinda bored of L4D as its repeatative and samey. What would make me want to be a sequel when the sequels gameplay is identical to L4D in every way?
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*buy a sequel – sorry for multi-post :)
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it looks like an expansion/DLC, not a sequel
and the using the melee weapons looks like it will get old pretty fast i doubt anyone will use them if they still have the dual pistols
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@Catastrophe Well let’s not pretend that L4D2 is £45 to start with. The same argument could be applied to many FPS. Quake 4 is just Doom 3 with different graphics and weapons right? How about going even further back to Doom 1 vs Doom 2?
I said it at the start of this thread but it bears repeating, the advent of DLC seems to have brought the unrealistic expectation that a sequel must be a massive departure from the original in terms of gameplay, engine or both. This is not really the case, even in recent years, sequels are just that, sequels, follow-ups to existing titles.
Your arena analogy is still horrible and broken for the reasons described above however so I would suggest different hyperbole in future ;)
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@ TotalBiscuit
It was a quickly and badly thought out example which you seem to be focusing on a little too much and missing the rest of the points I made.
Doom 1 and Doom 2 had a completely different mission set, story and goals to each mission. Your example is drastically flawed.
I do not have any overbloated expectations of DLC as I do not play TF2 and never expected more and more free content to L4D.
I got what I wanted out of L4D and did not expect any extra free content.
This post is my feelings on L4D2 and how I feel its a rehash of L4D with a couple of added features, removing many players from L4D and selling as a full price game.
The failed point I was trying to make with my Arena analogy was:
I’m kinda bored of L4D as its repeatative and samey. What would make me want to buy a sequel when the sequels gameplay is identical to L4D in every way? (My (failed) Arena analogy was Arena Season 1 and Arena season 2 is identical in gameplay and the majority of content)
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@Catastrophe – It’s hard to see your point when you used an awful analogy to make it.
Doom 1 and Doom 2 have different maps and exactly the same objective every single mission (kill bad guys, get to the end). The story? Are you serious? The story is like 1 paragraph long. The comparison is completely valid and those distinctions are meaningless because they barely even exist.
Sequels are ‘rehashes’ by definition, that’s why they are sequels. I fail to see why so many people are up in arms over a reality of the industry that has existed for decades.
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Completely different story and goals? Really?
I mean yeah sure, technically they did, but the plot and setting of Doom 1 was essentially “Zombies invade Mars! AARRRGGGH!” Where the the plot of Doom 2 was “Zombies invade Earth! AARRRGGGH!”. The goal in both games was “Get keys, shoot zombies, press end of level switch”.
In terms of gameplay, Doom 2 was a refinement of Doom 1, but it was by no means a drastic departure from the formula previously established. The gameplay and level design were better thought out, which was a natural evolution from the first game. I mean crikey, most of the enemy types were the same with a few new additions, and the big enhancement to your arsenal was a shotgun with two barrels instead of one.
I’d say the comparison with Doom 1 > Doom 2 is fairly apt.
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@ TotalBiscuit
Doom 1 and 2 are bad examples, also brought to the table by you as they were made by a small software company back when PC gaming wasn’t very large. Doom 1 did well but had flaws, so they released 2 to fix the flaws and add more baddies to kill. Gaming has drastically evolved since then.
A better example would be Quake 2 and Quake 3 and Quake 4. Unreal Tournament, UT2002. Engine upgrades, weapons upgrates, graphics upgrades, general game upgrades but the same underlining principal. That is a sequel.
L4D2 is L4D with a couple of new maps (added to the 4 original ones), 4 new character models, and 3(?) new zombies.
Half Life and Half Life 2… thats a sequel. Compare to L4D2.
Simply, it can be brought down to this one question, that I have noticed you keep ignoring:
“I’m kinda bored of L4D as its repeatative and samey. What would make me want to buy a sequel when the sequels gameplay is identical to L4D in every way?”
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Nobody’s saying you should stick with 4D2 if you’re bored with L4D1, at least I don’t think so. However your definition of a “true” sequel is pretty arbitrary and is more along the lines of No “True” Scotsman.
I mean, is Halo 2 a sequel to Halo 1? Couple of new maps, a few new weapons and character models.
How about Hitman Blood Money? Or Gears of War 2? Arguably enhanced gameplay, but the fundamental changes are new characters, new weapons and a new plot.
If we’re talking gameplay, they’re grander in scope and more well thought out in implementation (well, maybe not Gears 2 multiplayer, I don’t know what they were thinking there) is what I’d call those games, but not fundamentally all that different from their predecessors.
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I can’t wait for this! :D Looks awesome.
Oh, and the point that TF2 got more content that L4D.. well, let’s face it, L4D is nothing like TF2. Content is harder to produce for L4D. If you bought L4D only because Valve said they would be giving it DLC, then you’re pretty awful at buying stuff too. I, for one, loved the many hours of L4D I’ve played and can’t wait to spend more hours in L4D2.
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New special infected: The Boycotter. The Boycotter takes the apperance of the Heavy from TF2. The Boycotter will attempt to pounce you in a similar way to a Hunter, if a team mate does not rescue you before you are incapacitated you are kicked from the server, L4D2 is uninstalled from your machine and you are automatically subscribed to the L4D2 Boycott steam group.
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“What would make me want to buy a sequel when the sequels gameplay is identical to L4D in every way?”
Well, considering melee weapons, new special infected, the wandering witch, new random changes in level paths and what not.. well, quite a lot, actually.
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lmao @ Duffin
New special infected: Fan Boi. The fan boi takes on the apperance of a Scout from TF2. The Fan boi will only be attracted to you if you complain about L4D2. In that case the Fan Boi will swarm you and bring all over Fan Bois on the level to flame you until you die or they get bored and just go away.
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I think TF2 launched with CP, Push Pull, and CTF. PL was added later.
-Snuffles
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BTW I’m not against fan bois or for them or anything else just wanted to provider balance to Duffin’s statment (Which I did find amusing ^_^ )
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Too much anger. I’m out =o
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am I the only one that is going to have horrible horrible nightmares after playing this level?
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Oh wow, I’m loving how Valve gave the music in Dark Carnival that sort of carnival flair. Especially the music that plays whenever you gain control of your characters at the start of a campaign… that sounds amazing. :D
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Tei said:
I thought they were pretty terrible at it. Constantly splitting up, always shooting the Boomer at close range and only staying alive because it was on easy mode (you can tell because the Tank died so quickly).
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I do not really care about L4D2 that much, but I dislike the trend of Valve not having released a single feature-length game since HL2. A trend that was continued with L4D. Sure, Orange box was a nice bundle… but it too was a menu out of 3 great games (alright, 5 if you include the old HL2+Ep1), none of which could have been sold full-price. First, Valve at least admitted that they are trying an episodic approach with the episodes (each still costing more than a third of HL2 with a quarter of the content, but so be it). Now we get “episodic L4D”. At full price.
There is an anti-quantity trend that is disappointing. I know there are people who exclusively play de_dust 24/7 servers, amassing 1000 hours on a single map… but I’m not one of them.
Valve’s argument (heard multiple times in interviews) is that “Players play the same maps over and over again, so instead of making more, we make few but better ones!”.
Noble in theory.
The reality is, that while of the 12 maps in TFC only 4 were played regularly, out of the 6 maps TF2 shipped with, people only play one. I’m exaggerating with the numbers, there are new maps released, etc, but the trend is very visible. There is that notion (or marketing trick?) that having variety is something bad, as it would lower the focus on quality. But for example, nobody plays tc_hydro, despite Valve having spent so much time on “making it replayable with ever-changing the layout”. You can’t force quality. It will always be a percentage. And if you have less maps, you have less “quality” maps as well. If you don’t like one level, suddenly a quarter of the game becomes unattractive because there is so little remaining content, so little “buffer” that might be more to your taste. Room for maps that some “hate” but others “love”.
L4D has a different approach since maps are played more lineary (you could argue that 16 human players in 9 different classes produce more variety in a 2fort match as the procedurally generated waves of zombies in L4D) and thus the 4 map cycle of a campaign is perceived like one or two TF2 maps, if you want to compare it. And one hyper-detailed, “excellent” level doesn’t replace 3 “great” ones, measures that, btw, will always stay subjective.
That’s why I think the “I spend 120 hours in L4D!” argument falls flat, and with it, the only serious argument for L4D being a feature-length title I heard so far.
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PS: It didn’t look like this much text while typing. :/
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I liked tc_hydro, back when I was playing TF2 it always bugged the crap out of me that no one else wanted to stick with it through a full cycle.
But yeah, Valve has been getting a little light on the content end of things. What’s there is great, but I’d certainly like to see them put out a full-length SP game again.
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At least they’ve stopped making games with Headcrabs in.
This is a good thing.
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I wish they would put in the idea where if your team mate dies you have a chance of finding them again latter hiding in a locker or a box so that you can free them and bring them back onto the team (What would be even cooler is if you could find a NEW character along the way and that player that died controls the new character. Only right after the first one dies she/he is thrust into a dire situation where they are defending themselves in a small room with only melee weapons and if the other players don’t find them in time (And there is no little see through wall icon for this player until they find them) she/he dies again but this time foever.
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I was invited to join a L4D2 boycott group on Steam.
I lolled. *Ignores* =-P
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Funky Badger: You TAKE THAT BACK. :P The only reason I’m annoyed at l4d2 is that I want them to damn well make episode 3, as the hl franchise is the main reason I got into valves games. TF2 and l4d are fun, but I’ve an itching for dystopia that just won’t quit.
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Taken from a forum post I made elsewhere:
-the Charger infected (the one that grabs Ellis and slams him into the wall about 45 seconds in) seems to be designed with the same mindset as the Smoker: his intent is not really to do damage (as his hit on Ellis doesn’t really do any) but to create separation. So he seems to be a Smoker, but better due to his fast speed. Smoker still has the benefit of being able to do the same using elevation.
-Spitter has very, long range in the 2 examples she does so in the first video. Also she does ALOT OF FUCKING DAMAGE. Coach is caught in her first attack and loses half his health in the span of about 4 seconds. And mind you the difficulty seems to be set at Normal; commons hitting the Survivors are doing only 2 damage. In her second spawn, you can see that when she dies she leaves a pool of that substance behind, so point blank kills are a no no, similar to the Boomer.
-the Jockey’s attack is interesting as it seems to be a combination of the Boomer and Smoker: attracting commons, and controlled seperation. I’m not sure, but I think the act of jumping on a Survivor causes the commons to prioritize that victim over the other Survivors. Also note that the animation of the act of the Jockey jumping on a Survivor is fucking hilarious, and god help you all if I end up getting L4D2 on sale because I will be laughing and making ridiculous sexual jokes every time I play him.
-Hunter seems to have a new scream, I like.
-That new shotgun is great visually, and I like the sound effects.
-Looking at a few of the new Infected’s abilities, there are some really devastating combinations you can put together now that seem really fun in my head. What interests me the most is that Valve is clearly making a point that teamplay for Survivors will be even more necessary than in the first game, as 4 of the infected now have the ability to fully incapacitate and/or completely separate you from the group: Smoker, Charger, Jockey, Hunter. And the Spitter combined with a Boomer attack will fuck you. Hard.
Gonna be fun seeing the different combinations possible on release.
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@Serenegoose
I too am waiting with sweaty anticipation for the release of HLEp3. No Valve fan isn’t…
The only thing that keeps me calm is my deep rooted certainty that It. Will. Rock.
As for L4D2… yayyy! Variety for the special infected! Extra game mode! Fastest Valve release ever! This is def a day ‘o release buy for me :p
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lumpi,
If your point or one of them is that there aren’t enough campaigns in L4D, I agree.
I do play it a LOT but I believe the experience would be so much better with a little bit more variety – it would be enough to stop the “oh god we just have these 4 same campaigns to pick from” feeling setting in after getting together with some friends to play.
I believe if that was 6 campaigns, we’d sit there and think about it a bit more and they wouldn’t get so old so quick because it’d be more hours or days in between playing each one.
None of the community maps so far have even come close to valve’s level of quality – if valve has just / would just put just TWO more (full length [or at least 4 maps because the structure of 4th map in all the campaigns they have already sucks anyway so just go 1-2-3-5 imo], none of this crash course 2 map whateverness) campaigns of the same high quality calibre into the mix I believe I’d be much more content playing the game.
Anyway. Back to life. Rather pointless post I guess, but yeah.
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Looks very cool.
But it still feel like L4D wasn’t very long ago… and there’s so much that looks exactly the same. Maybe that will change in the final release though.
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Are 15 year old games a valid comparison? I don’t think so. Comparing this to Doom 2 makes no sense at all … in fact.
I mean, you can speed run Mario 1 in what … 10 minutes? Less? You can get through it without much effort in a few hours.
And what about Doom 1? I can get through it in one night.
Soo … sequels weren’t shorter 15 years ago … games were just shorter. This is probably because the average gamer was around 15 years old in the 90s. Now, the average gamer is in his late 20s or early 30s.
So yeah, we as adults expect more out of our games in general. Half Life 1 was much longer than Doom 1. Sequels aren’t longer now … games are longer in general.
So stop comparing this to Doom 2 … it’s not the same.
Not that I agree with the whiners. I’m just not going to buy this. They should do the same.
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@PaulMorel – You have provided no actual justification for your opinion that the comparison is invalid beyond ‘we expect games to be longer’, which of course is meaningless in a multiplayer setting.
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The argument that we should expect less of L4D2, or Valve in general, because other companies have released crappy sequels is a pretty awful argument. We should expect less because others have done less, and we have settled for it?
Sigh.
But again, I will vote with my dollars … and I’m sure that many people who love L4D will do the same.
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@ PaulMorel
This isn’t meant as a flame but I honestly wonder what you would give your dollar to if not to L4D2, given that you (as you say) loved the original game? I mean, it’s fine if you believe in “not settling for”, but even if one takes offence at the whole L4D2 thing Valve still has more integrity than 95% of all major developers, by far. And of the remaining 5% chances are pretty slim that their games will be as good, let alone better than the level of quality we’ve come to expect (and receive) from Valve.
I mean, taking all that into account, there must be very little in terms of non-indie titles that you could reasonably still give your dollar to. If I’d stuck with every principle I had re: DRM, genres, publishers, sequels, buying games online and so forth I would have missed out on a LOT of brilliant games. You know? I probably would have given up gaming by now.
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@PaulMorel – You should expect what is reasonable. You should not assume TF2-style support for every game Valve puts out and you should also not assume that Valve are above making a good sequel to a good game that is not a complete reinvention. They seemed more than happy to release Episodes 1 and 2, which were shorter and thus less expensive, but basically identical to Half Life 2 in every possible respect. Where was the complaining over that? You realise they have stated that the episodic Half Life games are basically Half Life 3 right? – http://www.videogamesblogger.com/2007/05/12/valve-claims-you-can-play-half-life-3-right-now-instead-of-waiting-for-a-future-release-date.htm
You wish to dismiss my comparisons? Ok, then dismiss that, straight from the horse’s mouth. It’s exactly the same principle, except in the case of L4D2 you’re paying more because you get far more gameplay hours out of it. Exactly the same situation. Ergo, this ‘precedent’ that people keep claiming Valve have set? It doesn’t exist. They, just like any other company, will happily release a sequel which uses the same engine, the same systems and just has more content and tweaks (and most likely enough content and tweaks to justify the buy-in). As a gamer, I plan my purchases based on perceived value-per-hour, not on whether or not the sequel is vastly different. A great and wise man once said ‘if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it’, well in this case, only parts of L4D were broke and they’re fixing it, while leaving the stuff that did work alone. I am fine with that, so why all these utterly unrealistic expectations that have no basis in fact or reality? Selectively choosing parts of what Valve do and then ignoring the rest is dishonest thinking.
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I’m not boycotting this as a matter of principal.
I’m holding out on buying it (or not buying it at all) due to the fact i’m bored of the original and its identical to the original with a couple of new maps and guns.
Whoever mentioned Halo 1 and 2 and asked if that was a “true sequel” – like Paul said, comparing all these games really doesn’t help but Halo 2 had a FULL new scripted campaign with new guns and a new multiplayer, not a couple of maps and a gun or 2.
Also @TotalBiscuit:
@PaulMorel – You have provided no actual justification for your opinion that the comparison is invalid beyond ‘we expect games to be longer’, which of course is meaningless in a multiplayer setting.
He was countering your Doom 1 and 2 comparison and you try and counter that by saying “which is meaningless in a multiplayer setting” when of course Doom 1 and 2 were singleplayer games?
There is a clear issue here with the size/content of L4D2 and its not due to some random meme where people enjoy boycotting random games, its due to the fact some people genuinely feel like L4D2 is falling short in some way.
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They do? How and when did they earn that?
And just because this is apparently hard to grasp, the big problem with L4D2 is not that it exists, but that Valve is releasing it instead of living up to their promises with the prequel. If they did both, most of the complaints against L4D2 would fall away. No one minds a new game. But many people object to being forced to buy a new game to get what was promised as part of the product they already bought.
But we’ve been over that plenty of times already. I’m actually more curious about the “integrity” thing. I’ve never thought of Valve as having more integrity than other developers. They’ve made some nice games, yes, but does that give them integrity?
I don’t really see where you’re coming from on this. Example please?
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@Castastrophe – Nonsense. There is no issue with the size and content of the game. It’s new levels, with new guns, new survivors, new enemy types and new mechanics, with the same style of gameplay. That’s what they expected you to pay money for (and did) in the first place, so it’s hardly a stretch to expect the same amount of content for the same price now.
Also last I checked Doom 1 and 2 survived far longer on the basis of their multiplayer, ask anyone who’s still playing Skulltag or co-op, so to make the argument that Doom 1 and 2 are ‘single-player’ games is really not valid. All that matters is longevity and how much enjoyment one gets out of a game as well as what level of enjoyment. That is what determines whether or not it was worth the price in the first place. He can argument semantics with comparisons all he pleases but it boils down to whether or not the juice is worth the squeeze.
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@TotalBiscuit
You can’t argue with fact. Fact is many people are put off by L4D2 and are up in arms by it, and theres a reason behind why they are. Like I stated, its not some internet meme where people pick random games to boycott, there is a reason behind why people are upset with L4D2, where you like it or not.
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*whether you like it or not.
GAH.
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Oh, as for the game itself, regardless of the whole boycott thing, I’m not really hooked.
It seems too much like they’re taking L4D, which was fun, and then throwing all the ideas that were discarded for the first game into it. Quantity over quality. One of the things I really liked about L4D is how tight and stylish it was. It had a theme, and it stuck to it. You didn’t randomly find incendiary ammo in people’s kitchen, you didn’t run around with cricket bats because it’d be bloody stupid. The infected didn’t stop to dress up as clowns before attacking you.
The original game made sense in a way L4D2 doesn’t seem to do. L4D2 is 100% “wouldn’t it be cool if…?” The same line of thought that gave Fallout 3 the bloody nuke catapult.
So while yes, I think Valve screwed us by making a sequel instead of delivering the L4D content they’d already promised, that’s not the reason I haven’t preordered L4D2. That’s simply because I’m not convinced L4D2 will be as good as the first game.
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@ Jalf:
Call it integrity or being dedicated to making good games and pleasing fans at the same time or just generally being ‘nice’, but examples? Offering free DLC for most of their games (in various degrees, with TF2 obviously taking the cake) where other major respected developers like Bethesda are charging for every singly piece of DLC for their games, giving you the option to ‘gift’ games you already have to friends from the Orange Box (imagine EA doing that – hah), being very respectful towards the modding community and at various points hiring individuals and entire teams…Valve may not be an altruistic and near-perfect, but fair and integer? Overall, I would rank them way above most of the games industry, the more because they’re not some little indie company that you could love to love (and forgive some minor flaws in their games).
For the record, I still don’t think that they broke their promise entirely. I didn’t see the making available of the two other campaigns in versus as DLC, but the Last Stand game mode definitely was and Crash Course will be too. It’s not huge and pretty slow, but hell, Bioware took ages to release DLC for Mass Effect (and is now charging for the second one). The entire L4D-L4D2 thing may not be perfect, but at this point I’d rather stick with Valve and see where this goes. Also, I’d be a fool to pass up on more, bigger and better of the game that has given me so much fun! :-)
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Well, ok, I don’t know if you could call something like The Lost Coast for HL2 DLC, but still. HL2 has gotten some serious technical boosts and updates since its release.
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@Catastrophe, yes there is a reason behind the boycott, but that doesn’t mean le biscuit total can’t disagree with those reasons and attempt to provide better reasons for not having a boycott. By disputing their reasons he *can* argue with a “fact”.
Definately a prepurchase for me, when I get around to remembering to do it. What with more of that Zombie based terror that I liked from the first combined with new locations, people, funny lines, zombies, guns, ammo, hitty stuff and gameplay. One thing I keep on thinking of is just how awesome a spitter would be if you came across a closet full of campers, it makes me buttery in my happy place, as closet camping was such a huge annoyance in the original for me in versus (fuck you No Mercy elevator, fuck youuuuuuu).
Also I’ve no problem with the ideas of “wouldn’t it be cool if…?”, as that seems to be the point of L4D2, L4D with a lot of cool ideas thrown in, and to me it so far makes as much sense (possibly better sense in some ways, what with hitty weapons and such). Finding incendiary ammo in a kitchen makes as much sense as finding pipe bombs in the bathroom and miniguns on the balcony, so I don’t have any problems with that.
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@Malagate
Yes but TB -is- arguing that the issue does not exist.
The issue exists. And you cannot argue with that fact. You can choose/feel you want L4D2 because you still enjoy L4D and want some extra maps and goodies, and money is no object, but L4D2 falls short of expectations/hopes/promises.
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@Castrophe – Wrong, I am not arguing that there is no reason behind the boycott, I am arguing that the reason is a bad one and is nonsensical.
Until someone can explain away the fact that Valve has done this before in the form of ‘Half Life 3′ (aka, episodes 1 and 2.. and 3 when it eventually comes out), then all the screaming about ‘why would Valve do this to this, they set a precedent with TF2!’ is meaningless.
I am aware that they made promises. I am also aware that they did not give a specific timeframe for the fulfilment of those promises nor did they promise an exact number of updates. There has been a free content update and there is another one in the works. I understand the scepticism behind statements that they would continue to support and update L4D even after the release of L4D2, however I do not support the notion that L4D2 is somehow not a sequel and Valve are wrong for calling it that/developing it/selling it for normal price. I also don’t support the shitstorm surrounding it, nor do I believe that the expectations/hopes of the majority of vocal complainers are in any way realistic or conducive to the reality of the industry at this point in time.
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The only games I can think of to get this treatment are TF2 and L4D. I’m not aware of any DLC for Hl2, CSS or any of their other games. Where’s the DLC for Portal? For HL2? Hl1? Or any of their other games. Yes, CSS and other online games get regular patches, butnot DLC as in significant new content.
And not giving you that option in other circumstances, like if you buy one of the big package deals on Steam, you *don’t* get to gift away games you already have. ;)
If Valve consistently allowed this, I’d agree it was nice, but they don’t. They’ve done it *once*. It doesn’t really count on the integrity-meter unless it’s something you can rely on them to *keep* doing. You don’t get integrity for having done something nice once upon a time. You get it for being *consistently* nice. (or at least for being consistent)
Which company isn’t? Everyone likes it if fans create new reasons to buy their games. Bethesda is respectful towards the modding community too. So is Epic, or iD.
Honestly, I don’t think any of the above has much to do with integrity. What you’ve shown is that they have, on several individual occasions, done nice things for their customers, but it’s not integrity unless you can *rely* on that behavior.
I don’t think it’s a sign of integrity to bump up prices by 40-120% for Europe overnight. I don’t think it’s a sign of integrity to be silent on the issue even when tens of thousands of your customers complain about it.
I don’t think it’s a sign of integrity to promise features you never deliver. I don’t think it’s a sign of integrity to close forum threads asking about Steam’s policy.
For that matter, as TotalBiscuit brought up, where’s the integrity when it comes to HL2? Where’s the integrity in saying “we’re switching to an episodic model so we can deliver games faster”, and then take what, two years to produce a single “episode”?
Valve generally makes good games, no doubt about that, but I don’t think they have done anything to earn more trust than the rest of the games industry. For them to have integrity, they’d have to consistently deliver on what they promise. They’d have to deliver HL2 episodes in an episodic format, with an episodic schedule, when they say they’ll make it episodic. They’d have to deliver the content they said they’d deliver in L4D. And answering or responding to customer complaints would be nice too.
Valve has done some nice things for their customers on occasion, no doubt about that. But they’ve also ripped their customers off on a few occasions. What that sums up to is not “a company that deserves my trust, or the benefit of the doubt”, but simply “a company out to make money, like the rest of the games industry”. They’re not evil, and they’re not saints. When they make good games I’ll buy them for the games’ sake. But when they don’t, I have no incentive to “support them” in any way. And if they make a game that doesn’t interest me in its current form, and *promise* that it’ll get better, I have no reason to trust that it is going to be the case.
They promised campaigns (plural), weapons, new special infected. Of those, you could make a case that they’ve delivered on the first one.
However, they also promised that these updates would be *more frequent* and *delivered faster* than TF2′s updates.
Have they delivered on that?
The comparison to Mass Effect is obviously irrelevant. Bioware never made the above promises about Mass Effect, so they can do as they like DLC-wise.
@TotalBiscuit:
Yes, it is meaningless. Which is why that isn’t the issue. TF2 and HL2 do not matter. What matters is that people bought L4D because they were promised content they did not get.
Not aware enough then. :)
They did give a specific timeframe. They said these updates would be delivered on a faster schedule than TF2 updates.
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@TotalBiscuit
No, you’re wrong.
You’re arguing that thousands of people who feel L4D2 has many shortcomings are all silly and make no sense, yet you then say you understand the scepticism. You also say you are aware they made promises. You are clearly choosing to overlook all these issues and making silly excuses for them. Thats called being a “Fanboi”.
There are issues, which you have pointed out, and that already makes the thousands of people who think them reasons are reasons enough not to purchase the game validated and thus Sensical.
Personally, in my mind, I would not define L4D2 as a sequel. Its identical to a game I bought earlier this year with a couple of maps added, a few guns and enemies. Its going to split L4D community in half with many playing L4D2, which is already counter inuititive to a multiplayer game thats been around for a year.
The choice for someone who owns both, which one to play will come down to a trivial “Which map do you want to play on?”.
“Blood harvest”
“Oh cool, lets log into L4D and kick some zombie ass”
“Now which map?”
“Ermm carnival?”
“Oh ok, lets log out of L4D, into L4D2 and pwn some zombieclowns”
A sequel should not be trivialised into which map you fansy playing on.
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@ Jalf:
I didn’t know they said they’d deliver more frequent and faster updates than for TF2…fair enough. I do believe Bioware promised DLC for ME, but they certainly didn’t make such a selling point of it, true.
As for your other points, they’re fair. I don want to point out that I’d never buy a game to “support” a company, no matter how much I like them. I only buy games because I like them. It’s only in a toss-up between 2 games that I might equally like that I buy the one developed/produced by a company I respect. :-) So while I concede a good few of your points (on which I may have been a bit cavalier), I still like Valve more than most other developers and definitely producers in the industry. Maybe it’s subjective, but hey.
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typos…gah.
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I’m boycotting this thread.
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