Dawn of War 2: Chaos Rising Announced

By Kieron Gillen on September 18th, 2009 at 6:45 pm.

The things I do for this site.

There’s been rumours around, but it’s finally been confirmed in our old comrades at the PC Gamer* podcast. Talking about their forthcoming issue where they reveal that the first Dawn of War 2 add-on pack will feature chaos. And it’s called Chaos Rising. It’s welcome, but not exactly an enormous surprise – I thought Chaos would be one of the most-likely factions to be in the original game. There’s little more in the podcast – expect more to come when the subs copies arrive with their readers shortly.

*UK. As in, the original one. Yeah, you heard.

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104 Comments »

  1. Baka says:

    Insane Spreadsheet.

  2. Heliocentric says:

    I don’t see where Homeworld 3 release is on that graph, clearly the graph is faulty, fix it please.

    • CMaster says:

      In your dreams.

      Which is a shame, but then I’d only want a new HW game if they could do it properly. IE like HW1 with a bit more automation and unit balance (not destroyers > all) and not like the dumbed-and-funned down HW2.

  3. BigJonno says:

    “*UK. As in, the original one. Yeah, you heard.”

    I don’t know why, but this filled me with an upsurge of pride and the desire to shout “UK represent, yo!” and other similar phrases.

  4. Vinraith says:

    I’ll be very interested to see what the SP in the expansion looks like.

    • Centy says:

      Same here I never was very interested in the multiplayer aspect of Dawn of War 2 after they abandoned the originals gameplay but the campaign mode was brilliant especially in co-op I hope to see more of this in the expansion.

      Assuming it is an expansion and not a massively overpriced expandalone or a games for windows live daft DLC thing like Fallout had.

    • Vinraith says:

      Personally I’m hoping for skirmish play on a metamap, but I doubt I’m going to get it. The single faction, tiny group with action/RPG elements campaign is what’s kept me away from the original DoW2 thus far.

    • essi2 says:

      Indeed, the SP in DoW2 is excellent. Mostly because it reminds me of the good old days of playing Chaos Gate. The MP is okay.

  5. DK says:

    Let’s hope they cut back and do one race per expansion – they don’t have to maintain an Axis vs Allies balance anymore.

    If they use the CoH system of standalone-but-not-really they can easily integrate new races at a steady pace.

  6. ChampionHyena says:

    SANITY IS FOR THE WEAK.

  7. Hug_dealer says:

    the dark gods will be pleased, and so am I.
    This will definately get me back into dow 2.

  8. Prankster says:

    Love the Warhammer universes, just i heard a few too many problems with dawn of war 2 at launch to nap it. Any regular players able to give us the old state of the game update ?

    • Crispy says:

      I’m a pretty big fan of DoW2. There are a lot of nice ideas in the game and I like the direction it has taken the RTS genre. There are those who reject it as an RTS game because it doesn’t fit the virtually unchanged archetype the genre has followed for over a decade, but I personally accept it with open arms. The major difference is a far greater focus on micro versus macro, with unit deployment and management emphasised over base-building and tech specialisation. I have been playing the game pretty solidly since the beta across ranked, unranked and LAN games and have also a decent knowledge of the mapmaker included since 1.5. Here is my frank opinion:-

      The singleplayer of the game for many is the strongest part, but what’s retained me has been the multiplayer. From what I’ve seen in the patch notes, most of the singleplayer updates have come in the form of bug fixes. It’s strongest and its weakest feature is the scarcity of battlegrounds you fight on: weak because it does get repetitive fighting in the same areas, especially towards the end of the campaign, but strong because you do get a sense that you are battling to protect your territory against a constant onslaught from Orks, Eldar and Tyranids.

      The story was competant, but it’s no Starcraft or Warcraft III. There’s a nice bit of loral fluff in the Wargear you gather and there is a lot of customisation to be had with the RPG levelling and equipping of your squads. A nice touch is that you can keep playing after you beat the final level adding some replay value for completionists. There is a confirmed forthcoming expansion that allows you to continue your singleplayer campaign against a new foe: the ‘Chaos Space Marines’, although it has not been confirmed if this is free DLC or not (I suspect not, although I wonder how the multiplayer will not be fragmented if it’s not). It’s worth noting that the entire game can be played co-operatively with another player drop-in, drop-out style, which I haven’t tried but have heard only positives for.

      But it’s the multiplayer that keeps me coming back. The game is steeped in complex interrelated rules and inconsistencies that can make it very hard for new players to get into, such as damage modifiers for different armour types versus weapon types, and lots of unit abilities and Commander Wargear upgrades to master (and be aware of). For competitive-minded or just plain hardworking players learning the ropes (or should I say ‘rules’) can be a rewarding experience.

      In terms of balance between the 4 races, the game has to-and-froed back and forth from patch to patch. Largely due to the mandatory Games for Windows LIVE submission process* for updates (at least that’s where my money is), Relic have had to make sweeping, heavy-handed and often radical balance changes with every major update instead of going with the softly-softly approach afforded by something such as the Steam platform (see TF2 for a rough comparison). This has meant a lot has been fixed but a lot has also been broken in the process. Currently the Space Marines and, to a lesser extent, the Eldar are currently seen at a disadvantage because of the dominance of melee harassment from the cheap basic Ork and Tyranid units in the early game. It’s more than possible that the addition of another race into the mix (Chaos Space Marines) could make this balancing act even less fruitful.

      * As I understand it, every time Relic wants to release an update, the code needs to go off to Microsoft to be fully tested by them to be compliant with the GfWL guidelines (read: ‘rules’).

      There have been several improvements to the matchmaking system since release, but due to choosing to use Microsoft’s ‘TrueSkill’ algorithm (or perhaps the implementation of said algorithm), to this day the system still manages to put highly experienced players against complete newbies, which is a tortuous experience for all (especially in team 3v3 matches with mixed skill levels from player to player). Seemingly unbeknownst to many, the matchmaking system can be avoided entirely by hosting or browsing for games on the Custom>Public server listing.

      Many new maps have been included, and there is now a 2v2 mode that treads the balance between brutally unforgiving head-to-head matches and somewhat chaotic 3v3 matches. The replay system has been vastly improved, as well as several UI updates to increase readability of the game. There is free co-operative multiplayer DLC due out on Oct 14th in the form of ‘The Last Stand’ (a sort of ‘Gears of War ‘Horde’ mode where 3 heroes battle against waves after wave of AI-controlled opponants), which will probably also bring new balance changes.

      And that pretty much sums up the state of DoW2 today and for the forthcoming months.

  9. ChampionHyena says:

    Addendum: I love me some Dawn of War II (pumped by the announcement enough that I’m gonna play it some more when I’m done opining), and the Tyranids are freaky and neat and all, but… I just feel like they have no soul (no pun intended.) I’m not a big fan of the inexorably marching mindless super-enemy (see also: Necrons). One reviewer of Dawn of War II (what review it was specifically I can’t recall) noted, in between bouts of praise, that he’d trade every last Tyranid for a single Khorne Berzerker. The Space Marines need a yin to their crusading yang. The Eldar meddle in everyone’s affairs, the Tyranids just want to eat everyone, and the Orks are just about goin’ fast and krumpin’ stuff. What we need are a horde of bloodthirsty axe-wielding mutated psychotics beholden to otherworldly mad deities of fel intent and inconceivable scope.

    I can’t wait.

  10. subedii says:

    Not that an update is unexpected or anything, but the only problem is that these new sides always throw the balance completely out of loop, and it takes ages to get back again.

    Which would be annoying, except if I’m honest, the vanilla game still needs some fairly important tweaking as it is.

    Still, I’m not about to go into balance discussions. Looking forward to the singleplayer campaign. I just really, really hope they finally allow drop in co-op instead of having it by friend invite only. That was a daft move from day 1, co-op is supposed to be a way of adding people to your friends list. Given that this is a GFWL game, few people will really have had the opportunity to make use of their friends lists to begin with before this game came out.

  11. Garg says:

    Does PCG UK have a man on the inside at Relic or something? I mean they got the exclusive DoW 2 announcement as I remember (the internets went all abuzz with that space marine silhouette on the back page of the issue before), and now it seems they have the first concrete info on the expansion. Colour me surprised as Tom Francis’ PCG review for DoW 2 wasn’t massively flattering (although I think it was pretty accurate, if perhaps glancing over mutliplayer a tad too readily).

    • Azhrarn says:

      I’d sooner suspect them of good connections with people at Games Workshop, since that’s where Relic is getting its DoW license.
      Anything going into the game needs to be approved (GW is like that, WAR had the issue too), so if anyone knows it early, it’ll be someone at Games Workshop HQ in Nottingham.

  12. Heliocentric says:

    Really, GFWL is half the reason i didn’t even bother with dow2. The other half was despite coh running like a dream on my weaker system dow2 beta/demo refused to boot.

    • Bhazor says:

      So you don’t use GFWL? So you don’t have Xbox Live? So that means you don’t have Viva Pinata? So what are you doing to remedy this situation?

    • Heliocentric says:

      Get viva pinata on the ds? But seriously, i have viva, and its fine. But i also have fallout 3 and gta 4, i don’t like having my saves taken hostage. The GFWL guys seem to be actively trying to fuck up pc gaming.

  13. Orange says:

    I had so many GFW issues with DoW2 I’m going to have give this one a miss :(

    Singe player alone is not worth it until it becomes budget.

  14. theleif says:

    Oh. Well. Here i was hoping for some hot Imperial Guard action.
    Anyway, when i played the WH40k table top game (rogue trader and the edition after that) i played as chaos. My lovely sweet smelling nurgle chaos cultist army (btw, Cawdor models from Necromunda are perfect as cultists). With just a hint of plague bearers, some nurgle chaos marines a level 2 psycher, my cute nurglings and some beasts. Oh and sometimes my Great Unclean One showed up to say hi. And make people rot a little. And on the table!.
    Then they rewrote the army list and forced me into playing a Chaos Marine chapter. Never! I shouted. Not sure why but they didn’t listen. Or the mountains in Norway blocked my roar.
    An today, the models are just to prohibitively expensive to buy. My Great Unclean One cost me something like 22 $ when i bought it. Today it costs 57$.
    So, over to the computer game. In DOW 1 it was worse, as you just played as a rag tag “hey, where all chaos lovers! lets get along and fight some unbelievers!” kind of army. Not what i want. When i play as chaos i want to play as a pure Nurgle army. or Tzeentch. I’d love to field a Slaanesh army. Khorne.. meh. Kinda boring and uncreative with their incessant “BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!”. Yeah, i get it you like the smell of blood in the morning. But it will never smell as sweet as the putrid stench of nurgle.
    So, what we will get will probably be just a potpourri of different chaos daemons and a summonable Bloodthirster.
    Look forward to it anyway. Just needed to rant a little.

    • Railick says:

      If I were forced to serve a chaos god it would be nurgle. Because at least with him you don’t have to worry about getting sick ever again because you’re ALWAYS sick and yet don’t die :P (at least from being sick) I’d want to be a Chaos Priest or something crazy like that.

    • Psychopomp says:

      Plus, Nurgle is the only 40K god that actually cares about his followers.

      No really, he loves each and every one of them.

    • jsutcliffe says:

      I always liked the “papa Nurgle” aspect. It’s a shame painting an army of festering green/brown people is so dull.

    • JonFitt says:

      Sounds like you played 40k when I did. Long before these Tau thingies and Necrons whotsits.
      Back when a Squat would run you over on his trike just for looking at him funny, and a Baneblade was a thing of fables only seen at Golden Demon.

      Guard would be good to see, and I second the call for a return to traditional Chaos values. In DoW1 (and possibly current 40k, I have no idea) they just seemed like re-skinned Marines with a different super unit.

    • Railick says:

      Lore wise Chaos Space Marines ARE just re-skinned space marines. They are about the same strength when you consider yes, they are curropted by Chaos but space marines are also enchanted with gene therapy and their newer space marine armor made by forge worlds ect.

      The primary difference between Space Marines and Chaos Space marines are their support units and abilities. Space marines don’t really have support units as much (scouts are still space marines after all) where as Chaos Space marines have cultists (Which could never aspire to be a Chaos Marine) and daemons of various types and what not which is a bit diffrent.

      It is their similarties that make them such good enemies IMO. They’re two sides of the same coin. One side is being driven by Chaos Gods and the other side is being driven by somethin just as strong the force of will of the Emperor (Which is strong enough to stave off the warp and allow safe travel ect)

      I’d love to see guard too, they’re one of my favorite teams in the origonal and table top version just because they’ve got more bravery than any other race in the game. Every one else is going into battle with power armor and super powers or some crazy waaagh driving them. Guardsmen are sane and wearing crappy armor for the most part and fighting against insane odds to protect their home worlds from invasion. Very heroic in my mind (In DoW 2 single player campaign your space marines argue about the guard and one of them supports them for this reason. He has to remind the crazier marine that they’re fighting the same enemy Space Marines are but without gene therapy,super armor, and bolter cannons. Which in way , makes them bravery than any space marine)

    • Brass Gerbil says:

      Excellent point. The Kinder Gentler Chaos of Relic’s games is boring. Some of the best tabletop battles were between Chaos factions.

      Honestly, I’d give up all the RTS/RTT type of 40K PC games for a really good reboot of Space Hulk. Atmosphere trumps all in the 40Kverse. Hell, the entire franchise is built on a depressing, creepy, gross, unrelentingly morbid atmosphere. It’s all very Lovecraftian. I’ve always felt that 40K is really a lot closer to the horror genre than it is to sci-fi. But none of that really comes across in Relic’s games for me. It’s all very clinical and detached.

      On a slight segue, WAR has the same problem; attempting to adapt the WH universe to a MMO was a huge mistake, IMO. The entire point of Chaos is that it’s NOT balanced; it’s a steamroller that can only be slowed by seven-foot tall, genetically-altered killers in power armor. In WAR, it’s more like: “Oh, look; a Chaos Mage. *yawn* Somebody put an arrow in him, would you?” Not fun.

    • Kieron Gillen says:

      Brass: I suspect it’s because Relic are North Americans.

      As I always say, most people miss the key difference between Starcraft and 40K. In Starcraft, every side you can play is the good guys. In 40K, every side you can play are the bad guys. The distance across the Atlantic is a long way sometimes.

      KG

    • Spoon says:

      I dunno KG, I thought Random Games got Chaos Gate right, and they were from North America.

      Stereotyping is bad.

    • Kieron Gillen says:

      Yeah, you’re right. I was taking a general observation – which I’d be fine with, as you have to be able to talk about cultural differences and values – and turning it into a stereotype – as in, saying because of that generalisation, the people would necessarily act in such a way.

      KG

  15. Chapter666 says:

    I hope they add some new daemonhunting units to the SM army (Grey Knights) as well to counter this threat. Actually, new units for all races in general would be nice. As for balance…well it’s a Relic game…balance and competitive play is for Starcraft.

  16. Railick says:

    I thought I posted this already but – I’m waiting for the Tau. To me they seem like they are the only race in war hammer 40k that could actually be considered “Good”

    • Azhrarn says:

      They’re still fascists that give you either the choice to join them or get sterilised and die out. Not exactly good, but they are idealistic atleast, most other races have given up that too. =)

    • Dominic White says:

      Yeah, the Tau are pragmatic assholes just like the rest of the universe, but they actually do seem to believe in offering an olive branch before trying to exterminate your entire race.

    • Railick says:

      well even after they took over several worlds previously owned by the Imperial guard an space marines they allowed those that wanted to to live with them and join them (instead of just slaughtering all the humans) Some tau armes can even field Imperial Guard units from those captured worlds! They don’t force their people to live in horrible Hive Worlds where Terminator armor is constantly being used to put down food riots and gang uprisings :P

      That’d be one hell of a game (Space Hulk : Destroy the Food Riot) you just walk around cramped undercity corridors blasting starving people who are throwing rocks at you and shoot at you with 20th century fire arms :P

    • Vinraith says:

      The Tau certainly give the best appearance of being, if not good, at least less evil than everyone else in the 40K universe. I’ve always thought there was something fishy about the elementals, though. I half expect a bit of lore to come down eventually that will reveal some nasty ulterior motives for the Tau.

    • Heliocentric says:

      Nothing evil about orks, they are genetically predisposed for scrapping. If it wasn’t for orks genuine organised threats like the nids and the necrons would have purged their respective halves of the universe and then met up in the middle for a throwdown.

    • JonFitt says:

      The Orks are probably Chaotic Neutral.

      Isn’t part of the point of the definition of the 40k races that no race are the good guys?

    • Arathain says:

      Right there, you have the essence of 40K. The good guys are the ones who give you a chance to convert to their way before they exterminate you.

  17. Kronyx says:

    I wonder how they will implement Chaos. Its strongest force are the Chaos Marines. And we all know Chaos Marines are Space Marines minus the craziness and horns. Either it will be terribly boring (daemons, unless big and angry ones) or just a copy of spess mehreens (Chaos marines). Here’s hoping for a mix.

  18. Tim E says:

    Thanks for the link, guys. Nice redesign, too.

  19. Psychopomp says:

    “Catholic Space Nazis sound like awesome villains, how can they be the heroes?”
    “By comparison.”

  20. subedii says:

    For anyone interested, the Devs are playing a clan, livecast on dow2live.com. Although I think this is going to be the last match, IIRC they’re down 4-2 right now.

  21. Railick says:

    Catholic Space Nazis LOL

    • theleif says:

      Nothing quite the sight as a squad of Sisters of Battle.
      Those SoB:es.

    • Railick says:

      I like they should breed the best Grey Knights and the best Sisters of Battle to create next generation Chapter Primarchs ^_^

    • Railick says:

      Er, not like. THINK, I THINK they should do this.

  22. Prankster says:

    Lol where all these 40K fiends come from :P

  23. Hug_dealer says:

    they didnt abandon the original’s gameplay in multiplayer, you still try to take points, and vp points. they have simply refined the gameplay with each release dow-coh-dow2.

    I cant wait for some obliterators. Or a defiler.

    They will play extremely different from space marines thats for sure. cultists instead of scouts. Chaos marines will be much more effective in close combat, esp with an aspiring champion. Demons will fill out more roles than vehicles. I expect probably only vehicle will be a defiler. Other roles will be filled by larger demons.

    Chaos lord, sorc, daemon prince for heroes. Lord will be offensive, sorc will be off/disruption like the farseer, and the daemon will buff allies and debuff enemies.

    • jalf says:

      No, they have completely gutted the gameplay of DoW. Of course they’ve reused a few of the ideas behind it, but that doesn’t make it the same gameplay. DoW2 is *all* slippery slope. All the advantages go to the team that’s winning. DoW gave the losing side plenty of opportunities for evening the score. In DoW, the critical point timer was reset if you lost control of the majority of crits.

      In DoW2, the timer just stops ticking down, so if you’re on the losing side, you’re *still* losing, and you get punished hard for any misstep.

      Additionally, I’d say taking out the entire base-building aspect is a pretty big departure gameplay-wise, whether it’s a good or bad change, it’s certainly a change.

      They’ve made some major changes to the gameplay, and pretty much lost me in the process. I loved DoW, got quite a bit of enjoyment out of CoH, but DoW2 is just too competitive for me. There’s too little room for missteps, and it’s all built around strict competitive ranked matches with fixed team sizes (and always exactly two teams), and with only one victory condition possible. They’ve surgically removed everything I *loved* about DoW, which is a bit of a shame, I think.

      I liked DoW2′s campaign, and sure, I had fun playing some vs matches with friends, but in general, I don’t feel like loading up DoW2 again for another match.

  24. Andrew Dunn says:

    Good news, I do like DoW2.

    Hope this has Imperial Guard too though. That’d be pretty great, they’re always the most endearing 40K side and the IG troops that were in DoW2 as AI were really nice.

    • Brass Gerbil says:

      Never understood this fascination with the Guard. I always saw the IG as nothing more than slightly crunchy ‘nid vittles. To each his own, though.

    • Andrew Dunn says:

      They’re the normal humans in a world of the supernatural and demonic. With them being basically 20th century soldiers (but with flashlights instead of rifles) in the midst of all this madness, I find myself rooting for them rather a lot. They’re the underdogs with huge tanks.

    • jalf says:

      Testing testing, trying to understand this nested reply thingo

    • jalf says:

      The nice thing about IG is that in addition to being the eternal underdogs, they also bring a pretty different play style to the game. In DoW, you had insane-range artillery, lots of little squishy humans as meatshields, and lots of defensive units and buildings. Gameplay-wise they were a lot of fun, and covered an angle that none of the other races did.

    • malkav11 says:

      The fact that they’re just regular guys is exactly why I don’t have any interest in playing Imperial Guard. I mean, this is a game where I could be playing 9-foot tall power armored religious zealot supersoldiers or hideous abominations from beyond, or implacable, remorseless fleshrobot killing machines, or very dumb, very fighty mushrooms. Why would I pick the guys I could be playing in a WWII game (I mean, minus the lasers)?

      They do make a great faction for writing novels about, though, as Dan Abnett proves with his Gaunt’s Ghosts series.

    • jalf says:

      …9-foot tall power armored religious zealot supersoldiers or hideous abominations from beyond, or implacable, remorseless fleshrobot killing machines, or very dumb, very fighty mushrooms

      Because it means you can play people getting beat up by 9-foot tall power armored religious zealot supersoldiers or hideous abominations from beyond, or implacable, remorseless fleshrobot killing machines, or very dumb, very fighty mushrooms. :D

      Sounds like fun to me! ;)

    • Vinraith says:

      It’s definitely the underdog appeal. When the space marines or the tyranids win, who’s surprised or impressed? There’s no satisfaction to be had in winning with a technologically or genetically superior faction. Winning with the poor, underequipped guard AGAINST those technologically and genetically superior enemies, now that’s where the fun is.

  25. fuggles says:

    Whilst I don’t really like DoW2, I’ll see how this pans out. In the meantime the Firestorm over Kronus (closer to codex) mod for Dark Crusade has just released a new beta. Makes the game a lot closer to the TT in rules and, not dissimilar to DoW2 in some ways in gameplay. Anyhoo, has a lot of fun chaos stuff, like daemons, noise marines and adds a boat load of new units to all races as well as new game modes and UI’s etc – Basically it’s awesome.

    Have a look at the video whilst you wait for Chaos Rising:

    http://www.moddb.com/mods/dawn-of-warhammer-40k-firestorm-over-kronus/videos

    So should be featured in PCG ;)

  26. Ape says:

    “There’s been rumours around,….” = There is been rumours around

    There’ve been rumours around = There have been rumours around

    • Anon says:

      “There’s been rumours around,….” = There has been rumours around

  27. Max says:

    It’s really in a great state. The multiplayer balance overhaul wasn’t perfect, but a damn sight close to it, and the game itself seems to have hit its stride (i.e. all the niggling stability issues have been worked out). They also added a bunch of content multiplayer wise, and with the free last-stand dlc coming out next month, now’s a good time to jump in.

  28. El_MUERkO says:

    “Woo!” i declare, “Woo banana sword, fish plant and blood!”

  29. Shubb says:

    We have always been here

  30. Go Shop at Asda says:

    For any UK folks out there who are debating whether to give this game a go, I picked up dow2 on offer at asda for £12 this week.

    Bargain!!!

  31. Rabbitsoup says:

    Tau you say? head to http://dow2.info/ and check out the news section.

    Not only tau there is an orc campaign cgi, DARK ELDAR and chaos units listed.

  32. Frye says:

    Hehe luv the graph.

  33. Isometric says:

    This was bound to happen.
    I hope it is just focused on Chaos alone and expands on the whole game with more variation in gameplay etc.
    With varying units depending on which Chaos god you choose to side with.
    This is probably hoping for too much though i reckon.
    Either way i enjoyed the DoW2 campaign alright.
    Never been one for the multiplayer, i’ll leave that to CoH.

  34. Aftershock says:

    IT WAS A MOMENTARY MADNESS.

  35. Hug_dealer says:

    The game is extremely not slippery slope. 90% of the req acquired is gained from your headquarters, power is near your base and easily protected. Large armies take huge upkeep req costs. A full army will half is not more your total req income.

    You earn more zeal by losing units than killing, so the losing team will get the chance to use a game turning ability more often.

    Having played over 700 matches. I know for a fact that the game is never really decided until the end unless you clearly outclass your opponent.

    • Psychopomp says:

      Aye, it’s actually fairly balanced, and you can always make a comeback…

      The only problem is the “pros” teaming up and smashing pubbie teams. That is the exact opposite of fun.

      They need to institute a way to play that throws everyone in with completely random people. The game is at its best when both you, your team, and your enemies, are on the same general skill level.

    • woppin says:

      Sounds like you play too much 3v3. 2′s and in particular 1v1 are significantly better, a lot faster, and a lot less forgiving.

    • Psychopomp says:

      But with 3V3 you constantly get big pretty WOOOOOOOSHes and BAMS ;-;

    • jalf says:

      90% of the req acquired is gained from your headquarters

      90%? Literally?

      Large armies take huge upkeep req costs. A full army will half is not more your total req income.

      But if you have a full army, you don’t need as much req either. You take fewer losses than someone who’s able to get a squad or two out at a time. So this isn’t exactly a crippling penalty, is it? Are you seriously saying that the losing team usually has req to spare, while the winning team can’t afford to replace lost units? That’s not my experience. Even despite of upkeep, the losing side is pretty much perpetually broke.

      Having played over 700 matches. I know for a fact that the game is never really decided until the end unless you clearly outclass your opponent.

      Of course it isn’t. Sometimes you’re able to come back. But if you have 10 vp’s left, and your opponent has 300, you’re pretty much screwed. Yes, sometimes people are able to pull a win off despite this, but my point was that compared to the first game, it is extremely hard to make a comeback. You can’t afford a single misstep.
      Consider all the advantages you just listed. Assume that the loser does exploit these to defeat his opponents giant army, build his own up and everything… Now he’s the one suffering rom all these penalties but he’s still only got the same 10 vp’s left!. So these penalties don’t actually change the slippery slope nature much. The losing side has to live with these penalties just as long as the winning side did, *just to even the score*. They don’t work in his favor at all.

      I’m glad you’ve enjoyed the game enough to play “more than 700 matches”. The problem is that if you haven’t played that many, you frequently get wiped off the map without really being able to say what you did wrong.

      To my mind, the two key differences between the games are that:
      - DoW games easily let you play casual for-fun games with friends, where small differences in skill and luck weren’t completely game-breaking. Like I said, you usually just had to capture one single critical location for a split second, and you’d be back in the game, or at the very least, you’d have gained another 5 minutes. That was often possible to do even if you were a bit outclassed. And yes, that might have been a pain in ranked games, but for those of us who don’t care about that, and just wanted to have fun, it was brilliant.

      - And second, In DoW, I still lost my fair share of games, but I generally understood why. I wasn’t mysteriously faced with an opponent who seemed to have 4 squads for each 1 of mine. They didn’t seem to magically do 4 times as much damage as my own troops. In DoW, it was pretty simple, even for a relative beginner, to analyze a match and see why you lost.

  36. Archonsod says:

    Unless it adds all the good stuff they had in DoW 1 and removes all the crap from CoH they forced in it’s still going to be crap. It doesn’t even feel like 40K these days …

  37. Lh'owon says:

    Would it be unbearably tiresome if I said Relic needs to hurry up and release Company of Heroes 2 instead of this? Yes, it would. Sorry.

  38. Heliocentric says:

    Coh2? Unless the engine had some major changes i hardly see the point.

  39. SwiftRanger says:

    Nice, despite the GfWLive and balance problems DoW II is one of the best things since Myth that could have happened to the RTS genre and is the perfect blend between DoW1 (which was too spammy) and CoH (which was just the wrong setting and too complicated for its own good). Bring it on.

    I guess those rumoured free singleplayer Ork and Eldar campaigns are out of the picture now then? :(

  40. neems says:

    I never got very far in DOW2, I was expecting an RTS and it turned out to be an action RPG… not a terrible game, just not hugely interesting.

  41. jalf says:

    @neems: The multiplayer part is still completely RTS. It’s only the campaign that’s been RPG’ified.

  42. subedii says:

    I recommend this to everyone, but I’ll still say it: Play the campaign co-op if at all possible. Find a mate to team up with and do the campaign together, everything becomes a LOT more fun.

    I really enjoyed the singleplayer anyway, but It’s true to say that the gameplay is a mix in the singleplayer, with an action RPG feel to the strategy gameplay. but teaming up with someone to take on the higher difficulties really brings the game into its own. The gameplay on Captain or Primarch was practically designed around having two players, making the best use of your squads’ individual abilities and coordinating everything with your team mate becomes vital.

  43. Lh'owon says:

    @Heliocentric: Yea that’s what I mean, presumably they have plans for a genuinely new game in the future (tech wise) and since I didn’t think DoW2 brought much to the table that CoH hadn’t already, I’d be much more excited to see what they’d do with a new CoH game.

    Personally I’d like to see a different setting, perhaps modern warfare with a greater emphasis on detailed micro (not the click-a-million-times-a-second sort, but rather detail of tactical choices).

  44. Rei Onryou says:

    I am pleased. That is all.

  45. pignoli says:

    Woop! I loved the campaign of this game, absolutely thrilled to be getting an expansion:)

  46. woppin says:

    @Helio: So they can bring back the balance the original had and forget about the British as if it never happened. CoH2 would be welcomed I think, OF pissed a lot of people off.

    @Lh’owon: Dow2 attempted to put melee into the CoH system and it hasn’t really worked. They also added the WC3 style heroes, and while they are good fun to play with they fuck with balance since they are chosen pre-game. I think they added enough to make DoW2 a worthy game, but so many things obviously just didn’t work out the way they expected.

    @Jalf: Are you playing 1v1 or team? 1v1 is unforgiving as hell at the moment, lethal melee means a single squad loss is gg after ~3 minutes sometimes (eg tac squad or banshee squad loss) but team games you can get away with making bad mistakes without feeling the effects quite as much.

  47. Hug_dealer says:

    jalf the situation you are describing is basically you facing a better player, and wanting a free ride against them.
    I have been soundly worked over at the start of the match and made comebacks.
    We each have our own opinions on it though. Personally i couldnt be any happier that the silliness of alot of dow multiplayer is gone. Coh is without a doubt the greatest rts ever developed, visually, and tactically. Dow 2 takes alot of the great things about coh brings them over to the dow universe. dow 2 isnt quite up to CoH standards, but it is still a goty contender.
    Woppin, they didnt add heroes, they were in the first game, and i would never ever claim they copied wc3 with them. There are heroes in the Table top that function exactly the same.

  48. Mull says:

    I hope they have a lot of new single player content and that Chaos are the player controllable army in the SP campaign. Couldn’t give a monkeys’ about multiplayer.

    While we’re throwing around 40K game ideas, I would love a turn based MMO action RPG type game set in the Necromunda fiction. I would also like a massive game studio to take the Inquisitor license and turn it into an epic, sprawling RPG in the style of Fallout 3/Mass Effect. Been reading the Ravenor omnibus recently and the potential there is immense – they even have the PuritanRadical split to use instead of good/evil.

  49. Gorgeras says:

    The problem is Eldar and always Eldar. Plus Orks being far too weak overall. For a game so focused on micro-management in multi-player, Orks who depend on numbers are at a disadvantage. But individual squads simply have none of the good stuff their counter-parts for other races have. Banshees have knockback, Choppa Boyz don’t. Assault Marines have an impact blast when they land, Stormboyz don’t.

    Orks as a rule have no counter against supressive fire, except massive zerging. But it doesn’t work. Their heroes and vehicles are their only big deal.

  50. subedii says:

    I’m going to have to side with Hug_dealer here. I’ve played nowhere near his 700 matches, but I’ll happily say that when I’m beaten, I usually learn something from each encounter and can figure out what I was doing wrong (if not then and there, then when I look at the replay). To be honest, I feel that 3v3 in Dow2 is a lot more casual and accessible than DoW1 was, it’s a lot more forgiving of mistakes. Main problem is that when you’re starting out, the TS matchmaking tends to match you against higher ranked opponents to try and ascertain your level (this evens out after a while). I can understand why they did it in theory, in practice that’s probably something that turns off quite a few new players.

    Also, if you’re facing an enemy who’s got four squads for your one, there’s nothing mysterious about it, you’ve mucked up somewhere, and that’s not really the games fault. I’m in no way going to excuse the actual game balance, because I feel there are some hefty balance issues to be addressed, but small differences in skill aren’t gamebreaking, if the guy’s roughly as good as you are, then you’ve got about the same chances. The way you’re stating it though, it sounds as if you want to be able to consistently win against people who are way better than you because that makes the game more “fun”. Me, I get the tar beaten out of me all the freaking time, it’s not like my Win-Loss ratio is even 1-1 yet. But I’m getting better, and that’s what makes the game fun for me. It’s not about winning, it’s about being able to play at a higher level, that’s where the fun in competitive RTS’s comes from. But then again like I said, I felt DoW 1 was a lot less forgiving in this regard anyway.