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	<title>Comments on: The Winner Takes Your Files: Lose/Lose</title>
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	<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/09/24/the-winner-takes-your-files-loselose/</link>
	<description></description>
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		<item>
		<title>By: metin2 yang</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/09/24/the-winner-takes-your-files-loselose/comment-page-2/#comment-419034</link>
		<dc:creator>metin2 yang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 07:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=18354#comment-419034</guid>
		<description>lili lilil</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lili lilil</p>
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		<title>By: Louis Vuitton bags</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/09/24/the-winner-takes-your-files-loselose/comment-page-2/#comment-392233</link>
		<dc:creator>Louis Vuitton bags</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 00:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=18354#comment-392233</guid>
		<description>Louis Vuitton bags  &lt;strong&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.replica-bags-sale.com/&quot; title=&quot;Louis Vuitton bags&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;  Louis Vuitton bags</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Louis Vuitton bags  <strong><a href="http://www.replica-bags-sale.com/" title="Louis Vuitton bags" rel="nofollow"></a></strong>  Louis Vuitton bags</p>
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		<title>By: raynar</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/09/24/the-winner-takes-your-files-loselose/comment-page-2/#comment-348552</link>
		<dc:creator>raynar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:56:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=18354#comment-348552</guid>
		<description>Virus also used your directory file tree to construct the levels, i always thought thats cool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Virus also used your directory file tree to construct the levels, i always thought thats cool.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: TimRandall</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/09/24/the-winner-takes-your-files-loselose/comment-page-2/#comment-310086</link>
		<dc:creator>TimRandall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 21:39:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=18354#comment-310086</guid>
		<description>As a game, it fails, obviouisly. It just isn&#039;t very good.

As a work of art, it provokes dicussion and divides opinion, but if that&#039;s all one looks for in art, then art is dead and has nowhere to go, having evolved into its ultimate form: trolling internet forums.

As an object lession in RTFM before playing, it&#039;s a great success.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a game, it fails, obviouisly. It just isn&#8217;t very good.</p>
<p>As a work of art, it provokes dicussion and divides opinion, but if that&#8217;s all one looks for in art, then art is dead and has nowhere to go, having evolved into its ultimate form: trolling internet forums.</p>
<p>As an object lession in RTFM before playing, it&#8217;s a great success.</p>
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		<title>By: MacK</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/09/24/the-winner-takes-your-files-loselose/comment-page-2/#comment-308505</link>
		<dc:creator>MacK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 04 Oct 2009 16:58:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=18354#comment-308505</guid>
		<description>i&#039;ve setup a vm just for play this fucking game, then i find out that is a shitty mac app.

the creator should die in a fire.

twice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i&#8217;ve setup a vm just for play this fucking game, then i find out that is a shitty mac app.</p>
<p>the creator should die in a fire.</p>
<p>twice.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Monroe</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/09/24/the-winner-takes-your-files-loselose/comment-page-2/#comment-303476</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Monroe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 23:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=18354#comment-303476</guid>
		<description>The concept itself is pretty ancient. There was a classic comic about it in an issue of &lt;i&gt;Knights of the Dinner Table&lt;/i&gt; magazine back in 1997:
http://javajack.dynalias.net/kodt/virtual-liabilities.jpg

Can&#039;t name any, but I would be surprised if there weren&#039;t real, or at least thought experiments describing it, equivalents going back to the 70s or 80s, on unix, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The concept itself is pretty ancient. There was a classic comic about it in an issue of <i>Knights of the Dinner Table</i> magazine back in 1997:<br />
<a href="http://javajack.dynalias.net/kodt/virtual-liabilities.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://javajack.dynalias.net/kodt/virtual-liabilities.jpg</a></p>
<p>Can&#8217;t name any, but I would be surprised if there weren&#8217;t real, or at least thought experiments describing it, equivalents going back to the 70s or 80s, on unix, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Preacher</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/09/24/the-winner-takes-your-files-loselose/comment-page-2/#comment-302536</link>
		<dc:creator>Preacher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 08:51:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=18354#comment-302536</guid>
		<description>Lose/Lose&#039;s central point is essentially a straw man argument.  Its statement about violence in video games drains the context out of video games in order to make its point.  The ambiguity it tries to establish by linking real data loss with the loss of a virtual (fake/imaginary) life is a poor analogy for the ethical or moral argument it attempts to make. The heavy-handed message that killing things results in them being lost forever is a simplified morality taking nothing complex into account.  There is also the implied argument about violence in video games that was almost certainly considered when making this.  The long-stated, long-deflated argument that virtual violence desensitizes us to the violence of the real world.

The fact of the matter is that the video game audiences of today require &lt;i&gt;more&lt;/i&gt; context than the video game audiences of the past.  They want to know why things are happening.  They want to know what the points are of the decisions they make are.  They want their games to make them feel something.

Ironically, every question that the artist raises has been addressed and handled with far more panache and skill by video games themselves.  Without any simplified &quot;real-life consequence,&quot; game audiences have felt the pressure of complex ethical decisions (torture or stay ethical and lose many of your powers in Fable 2), the surreal satire of the action genre&#039;s sociopathic tendencies (the GTA series) and even the remorse of lives ended forever (the thousands that still mourn for Aeris in Final Fantasy 7).

Someone has already brought up the fact that the major question of the role of data as a cherished possession has already been answered; and once again, it was answered by video games themselves.

So finally I put my opinion in: this piece is not a quality artwork especially when compared to works that have covered the exact same ground as it has, some with bigger budgets, some with the same small budgets.  The methods it employs to try and make its ethical arguments are heavy-handed and simplistic.  In an attempt to &quot;pare down&quot; the concept of video game violence and distill it to an essential core, the artist has missed the point of video games entirely.

And at the very last, I offer this speculation:  How will the artist feel when the Internet corrupts his work like so many others in the past?  He has essentially written a terribly effective trojan horse malware program.  A ridiculously simple hack is all that is required to strip or change the warning documentation at the beginning of the game.  In an attempt to draw a simplistic analogy for the nature of murder, he may very well have empowered scores of real-world people who are real-life malicious to prey upon the unwilling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lose/Lose&#8217;s central point is essentially a straw man argument.  Its statement about violence in video games drains the context out of video games in order to make its point.  The ambiguity it tries to establish by linking real data loss with the loss of a virtual (fake/imaginary) life is a poor analogy for the ethical or moral argument it attempts to make. The heavy-handed message that killing things results in them being lost forever is a simplified morality taking nothing complex into account.  There is also the implied argument about violence in video games that was almost certainly considered when making this.  The long-stated, long-deflated argument that virtual violence desensitizes us to the violence of the real world.</p>
<p>The fact of the matter is that the video game audiences of today require <i>more</i> context than the video game audiences of the past.  They want to know why things are happening.  They want to know what the points are of the decisions they make are.  They want their games to make them feel something.</p>
<p>Ironically, every question that the artist raises has been addressed and handled with far more panache and skill by video games themselves.  Without any simplified &#8220;real-life consequence,&#8221; game audiences have felt the pressure of complex ethical decisions (torture or stay ethical and lose many of your powers in Fable 2), the surreal satire of the action genre&#8217;s sociopathic tendencies (the GTA series) and even the remorse of lives ended forever (the thousands that still mourn for Aeris in Final Fantasy 7).</p>
<p>Someone has already brought up the fact that the major question of the role of data as a cherished possession has already been answered; and once again, it was answered by video games themselves.</p>
<p>So finally I put my opinion in: this piece is not a quality artwork especially when compared to works that have covered the exact same ground as it has, some with bigger budgets, some with the same small budgets.  The methods it employs to try and make its ethical arguments are heavy-handed and simplistic.  In an attempt to &#8220;pare down&#8221; the concept of video game violence and distill it to an essential core, the artist has missed the point of video games entirely.</p>
<p>And at the very last, I offer this speculation:  How will the artist feel when the Internet corrupts his work like so many others in the past?  He has essentially written a terribly effective trojan horse malware program.  A ridiculously simple hack is all that is required to strip or change the warning documentation at the beginning of the game.  In an attempt to draw a simplistic analogy for the nature of murder, he may very well have empowered scores of real-world people who are real-life malicious to prey upon the unwilling.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous Coward</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/09/24/the-winner-takes-your-files-loselose/comment-page-2/#comment-299555</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous Coward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 07:46:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=18354#comment-299555</guid>
		<description>Funny thing: quite a few viruses acquire permission for their installation by promising the user porn.  Many who bring their computers in for repair after accepting these bargains are more concerned about where the porn they were promised went than about the condition of their machines.  This isn&#039;t a new critique of idiot end-users; it&#039;s just leveraging a different stereotype.  Then again, given the moderate success of Evony (where&#039;s the queen?  I was promised a queen...), perhaps this necrotic horse could stand a bit more flogging.  Listen to Joshua: sometimes the only winning move is not to play.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny thing: quite a few viruses acquire permission for their installation by promising the user porn.  Many who bring their computers in for repair after accepting these bargains are more concerned about where the porn they were promised went than about the condition of their machines.  This isn&#8217;t a new critique of idiot end-users; it&#8217;s just leveraging a different stereotype.  Then again, given the moderate success of Evony (where&#8217;s the queen?  I was promised a queen&#8230;), perhaps this necrotic horse could stand a bit more flogging.  Listen to Joshua: sometimes the only winning move is not to play.</p>
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		<title>By: Tamsin</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/09/24/the-winner-takes-your-files-loselose/comment-page-2/#comment-298882</link>
		<dc:creator>Tamsin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 19:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=18354#comment-298882</guid>
		<description>Er, my last comment was meant to be in reply to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/09/24/the-winner-takes-your-files-loselose/comment-page-2/#comment-296318&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Okami&#039;s comment&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Er, my last comment was meant to be in reply to <a href="http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/09/24/the-winner-takes-your-files-loselose/comment-page-2/#comment-296318" rel="nofollow">Okami&#8217;s comment</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tamsin</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/09/24/the-winner-takes-your-files-loselose/comment-page-2/#comment-298879</link>
		<dc:creator>Tamsin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 19:16:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=18354#comment-298879</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m confused, probably because I haven&#039;t read Huizinga. How can anything not have consequences &#039;outside of the games space&#039;? What about emotional response: is it not a game if it puts you in a lasting good mood? What games that teach you things, or sports games that give you exercise (with presumably lasting effect on your body)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m confused, probably because I haven&#8217;t read Huizinga. How can anything not have consequences &#8216;outside of the games space&#8217;? What about emotional response: is it not a game if it puts you in a lasting good mood? What games that teach you things, or sports games that give you exercise (with presumably lasting effect on your body)?</p>
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		<title>By: fermier</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/09/24/the-winner-takes-your-files-loselose/comment-page-2/#comment-298205</link>
		<dc:creator>fermier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 03:57:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=18354#comment-298205</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m pretty sure this hasn&#039;t been addressed. A lot of outrage here comes from &quot;if this crap is art, then why isn&#039;t x art?&quot; I think the problem here is that most folks seem to think that only good art is art! For what it&#039;s worth, I think most important is the artist&#039;s intent to make art -- to creatively express. Love or hate from an audience probably has very little effect on a work being art or not and a lot more to do with an artist&#039;s self-esteem. In that vein, substituting &quot;This is bad art,&quot; with &quot;This isn&#039;t art!&quot; satisfies a critic&#039;s intent to be mean more than be honest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure this hasn&#8217;t been addressed. A lot of outrage here comes from &#8220;if this crap is art, then why isn&#8217;t x art?&#8221; I think the problem here is that most folks seem to think that only good art is art! For what it&#8217;s worth, I think most important is the artist&#8217;s intent to make art &#8212; to creatively express. Love or hate from an audience probably has very little effect on a work being art or not and a lot more to do with an artist&#8217;s self-esteem. In that vein, substituting &#8220;This is bad art,&#8221; with &#8220;This isn&#8217;t art!&#8221; satisfies a critic&#8217;s intent to be mean more than be honest.</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/09/24/the-winner-takes-your-files-loselose/comment-page-2/#comment-298192</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Sep 2009 03:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=18354#comment-298192</guid>
		<description>trolling is a art*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>trolling is a art*</p>
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