By Kieron Gillen on October 14th, 2009 at 12:04 pm.
There’s been a lot of people asking questions about Borderland’s intricacies over in the Co-op impressions thread yesterday. Specifically, how much of an RPG it actually is. Well, the what-is-an-RPG always opens a particular can of debate, but in terms of character development, that they’ve lobbed the character skill tress online can give you a handle of the whole action/RPG mix. Here’s sneaky-lady Lilith , heavy-frenzied mouthbreather Brick, camping-bastard Mordecai and the hilariously inappropriately named Roland. And some further explanation follows…
Firstly, it’s worth noting this isn’t the whole of character development. You also have skills in individual weaponry, which increase through just use. Concentrate on a single weapon and you’ll increase its skill further, at the expense of flexibility. Secondly, there’s also quite a lot of equipment-based character specialization. As well as things like choosing weapons appropriate for your abilities, you get to plug in fancier ability sets which give you boosts in area. For example, increasing the amount of ammo of a certain gun sort you can carry. And extra slots for carrying weapons and equipment open up as you progress.
But the skill trees very much are the big steps. You get your first skill point at level five, which opens up your top level skill – which is your class-defining showing off ability, which is normally on a pretty hefty timer (go and hover over the actual trees to see the full description). Every skill point can be spent on the top levels. As you’ll see, there’s two skills in each of the leg. Five points are required at each level to unlock the abilities directly above, which are usually fancier and meatier. And… well, it’s a standard post-Diablo skill sort of tree. In other words, there’s three main builds in each of the classes, plus the ability to mix it up a little. For example, Roland could have gone and concentrated his ability on making his gun-turret become more brutal by concentrating as a soldier… but when John plays him, he actually pushed him towards the other two, becoming a support medic, providing healing and… oh no! John’s the healer again.
I bet John is an adept healer.
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Without even looking at the other characters, I can quite definitely say that I’ll be playing as Roland. I do love turrets.
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Yeah, this looks like it should be fun.
http://www.borderlandsthegame.com/skilltree/roland/#01550005550050505050000
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It’s the TF Engineer!
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Brick looks like my kind of guy. AND IN THE etc etc. Also, Roland hasn’t been stolen wholesale from the Engy at all has he?
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John actually is a mix of healer spec Roland skills, apparently.
I’ve gone for a super tanky Brick and a damage Mordecai.
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Childe Roland to the Borderlands came.
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Gunslinger Mordecai does look like it could be fun too.
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If anyone’s interesting, my two characters are a pure-brawler Brick and a support-healer Roland.
KG
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Mmmm, Freudian.
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I’M INTERESTING!
/lie
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Lilith: I’d go for Elemental mostly, then Assassin.
Brick: I’d probably max out the Brawler tree then add the first two from Tank.
Mordecai: A mix between the Sniper and Rogue trees.
Roland: Probably everything in the Infantry tree bar the shotgun talent, and the base two from Medic.
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Building Brick around revenge and a low Bezerk cooldown is gunna be the hurt.
http://www.borderlandsthegame.com/skilltree/brick/#31050000050055005055505
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Any word on how skill respecs would work, if there are any?
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Jacob: Haven’t found any. Wouldn’t surprise me if there wasn’t any. Diablo and similar don’t normally. We’re not talking about 100+ hours of play to get a high level character.
KG
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You can respec for a certain amount of money at the respawn stations.
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It took one of the developers about 100 hours to reach max level.
Thought that was worth pointing out. ;)
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they’re WoW-ish, with scaling costs based on the number of times you respec
no surprises
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Butler: Where you find them? I’ve missed them entirely.
KG
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There’s a great FAQ thread over at a Silicon Knights community website (somewhat strangely?)
http://siliconknights.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6928
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Sniper/gunslinger Mordecai, here I come.
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what’s the hand to hand like with brick?
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I imagine it’s BIFF!
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I haven’t heard of a game character called Roland since this series on the Amstrad CPC!
I also think RPS needs to do a Borderlands game diary titled La Chanson de Roland.
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Wasn’t there a Roland or Rolando or something in one of the Dead or alive games? he wore a commando uniform i think.
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I loved Roland in Time! And Doors of Doom actually.
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Controller/Assassin Lillith, I reckon.
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That strikes me as a bit silly – a lot of Lillith’s abilities seem to revolve around Melee.
I elected to go for a resistant, AoE/Melee Phasewalker.
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Yeah, I had something similar. Phasewalk, Daze while coming out with Phase Blast, melee the crap out of’em while dazed, then I put some points into bullets to handle farther away foes while phasewalk recharges. Seems like it might be entetaining.
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According to the forums, Brick is the underdog – so I will play him!
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I’m thinking of building Roland is a complete gunbeast and ignoring all of the turret talents. One has to wonder how viable that is, I’m not too keen on the idea of relying on a turret to shoot everything for me.
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Biscuit: The recharge on the turret is the thing. 100seconds before you put any talents in is a very long time.
KG
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I’d be amazed if Brick really was the underdog.
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Not normally my sort of playstyle at all, but Lilith looks really good, dump loads of points into phasewalking / cooldown / regen and become an unhittable melee monster.
Quite impressed with the skill trees in general, more to it than I thought initially.
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I take it Brick doesn’t get quality punching noises/captions?
“Wiff! Bak! Kerplunk!”
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Interestingly, I’d likely end up specing Roland in support (like thus http://www.borderlandsthegame.com/skilltree/roland/#01050000005050555505500)
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That is so so so similar to mine!
http://www.borderlandsthegame.com/skilltree/roland/#01050000005050550505505
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Is Brick intentionally being played by Vinnie Jones?
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Vinnie Jones in a funhouse mirror it seems, his Heavy-proportioned legs are a little distracting. Still, I wouldn’t tell him that to his face.
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I cannot believe how many people do not ‘get’ a Gunslinger named Roland.
Does no one read?
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Yes. If more people read the Dark Tower series the world would be a better place.
Or, you know, not.
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I’ve never read The Dark Tower series, I guess I always figured it was as cack as his horror novels (Misery excepted).
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I do not kill with my turret, I kill with my heart….
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The Dark Tower series is well worth a read. I happen to think it’s very good, but at least it’s very interesting. Not really typical King at all.
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Except Mordecai’s the gunslinger. Roland here is the soldier (AR/shotgun) or support character.
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Wow. This actually put me off buying it a bit. Powers and MMO trees and assorted bullshit. “Ooh, I didn’t put enough points in turrets! Feeeeck!”
If there were a demo, I might possibly. But at $50 ($45) I can buy several known-good games instead of it. I suppose that’s why you guys post these things, to help us make decisions. But damn. It looked great until this.
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Don’t worry – I sure as hell get THAT reference!
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Weylund: don’t discount it just yet. I was surprised too. I usually get quite pissed off with level-based games, but this seems to work on account of being tied so well into the shooting part of the game.
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Well, a (sorta silly) question: if I decide to never allocate a skill point (or if it is forced, allocate them to skills I never use), and rely entirely on my lifetime training of twitch shooter skills, can I plausibly get by? Or is the leveling up that important? I know this is sorta missing part of the point of the game, but I’d like to know how flexible the whole experience is — can I ignore all RPG elements and play it like a straight up FPS, or am I forced down the hybrid path?
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As far as I can tell, it’s basically a normal shooter if you’re playing against enemies of similar level, say +/- 2. Once they’re more than a couple of levels higher you can’t hurt them significantly, and vice versa.
It’s the level difference that determines the damage gradient, so you could ignore the skill tree entirely, which would just set the game to some kind of unintended hard mode, and still get through.
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The skill trees are what especially attracts to me towards this game.
Mmmm, skill trees.
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Thanks, Jim. The thought that the game is composed primarily of shooter elements somewhat mollifies me… but at $50 I find myself confronted by terrible visions of an expensive HG:L. I hope they come out with a demo.
@DeepSleeper: Actually, having replied with what I did, I wanted to add that any characters created post-Dark Tower named Roland should probably not be gunslingers, especially “gunslingers” by King’s definition, not that that’s happened here. King’s character deserves some special breathing room – he’s perhaps my favorite character in literature. Except maybe Scobie or a wet-shirted Mr. Darcy. Rowr.
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Actually, it’s only about £20. I don’t know how much that is in dollars, but I’m pretty sure it’s less than $50.
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Inline replies that everyone misses on re-reading the comments thread… for the win.
Anyway, Dante: yes. Here, in the US, where we use American dollars, it costs fifty of them.
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Linkies:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/8980/?cc=us
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Every time I read this headline, I see it as “Borderlands Chav Dev.” As if the co-op article didn’t make me skeptical enough yesterday.
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Hmm. For Roland I’d take Support and a bit of Infantry, for Lilith I’d go Assassin with some survivability from Control, for Brick I’d go Blaster with some Tank and for Mordechai I’d pick Sniper / Gunslinger.
What can I say? I like damage. And damage mitigation. But mostly damage.
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Everyones builds look quite different to mine, all these nice neat 5/5 and 0/5s everywhere. The way I figure it is often the last point invested in a skill is not such a big increase as the first. Going from 0–>10% is bigger than 40–>50%. I’m happy to have the few skills I’ve identified as the big damage dealers maxed out and a scattering of points into all the rest.
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But..but.. maxing out is fun!
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More importantly, Gearbox didn’t include any diminishing returns that I could see. \o/
Huzzah for each skill point giving you +10 percentage points to whatever the skill does, rather than 15/10/8/3/1 or whatever, which always made me feel evil (read: mechanically subpar) for not cherry-picking and which is the way that Diablo II did it.
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I can’t imagine going anyone but Lilith :O
http://www.borderlandsthegame.com/skilltree/lilith/#21055050550000005005505
Leet stun+damage+melee build right there imo.
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Check out Intuition. It’s probably one of the most powerful talents in the game until the level cap.
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Yeah, I thought Lilith looks the best too, and had a similar plan, except with Dramatic Entrance instead of Striking (I didn’t think the slow + reduced accuracy of dazing would matter if you were in melee range anyway) and Silent Resolve instead of Hit and Run to protect me after I go in for the phase walk sneak attack.
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I’m way more interested in builds that make the various classes not play like they’re supposed to. This is my horrible “Why would I want to do anything for you, except gain amusement from shooting you in the face?” Roland build, which I actually just made because I don’t like turrets and wanted a soldier-type that doesn’t rely on buildables to win: http://www.borderlandsthegame.com/skilltree/roland/#01500505050000005055055
Mordecai without the sniper rifles (because I hate sniper rifles): http://www.borderlandsthegame.com/skilltree/mordecai/#11000000050505050505555
A ranged Lilith: http://www.borderlandsthegame.com/skilltree/lilith/#21000000055050550550550
I’m not sure whether I’d like the Mordecai or the Lilith build best out of those two. I wanted to go for Lilith originally, but I’m now leaning towards the gunslinger build, since I like dual-wielding pistols. Also, the Lilith build is mechanically inferior since I don’t milk the “wated” Phasewalking point for all it’s worth (so’s the Roland build, incidentally).
Also, incredi-punchy Brick, which is probably what most people will go for but I like the idea of never firing a weapon in a sci-fi shooter: http://www.borderlandsthegame.com/skilltree/brick/#31555505550505000000000
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Your Mordecai looks a little like mine, except I’ll be using a few points in the sniper tree, and ignoring the pet completely.
http://www.borderlandsthegame.com/skilltree/mordecai/#11505500500000005505055
Maybe dropping Trespass if it only applies to sniper rifles.
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Criminy. I feel like a troll. Anyway, it’s precisely this “ooh I’ve got a build” nonsense that makes me not want to play games that have skill trees. I always end up feeling sub-optimal for not following the prescribed wisdom, or like a tool for doing precisely the opposite.
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That’s probably because the vast majority of games with skill trees aren’t well optimised, so some builds are more effective than others.
Anything that encourages different play styles should be a good thing though, right?
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Do skill trees encourage different play styles? Perhaps I just play games with folks who over-optimize, but I can tell you that optimizing for skill trees creates cookie-cutter play styles in my experience, right down to power / attack combos.
And isn’t “one build being more effective than another” pretty much the point of skills, let alone skill trees? Save, say, the modded-in lightsaber stances in KOTOR, I’m having a hard time thinking of truly balanced skills in any game.
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Having played D2, I see what you mean about optimisation, although in my experience it’s more about gear than it is skills, for that game anyway, different builds are equally effective, however there is absolutely optimal gear for most of them.
To me, the point of skills is to allow a player to tailor their gameplay to suit their own preferences, which is always a good thing.
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Ignoring the whole cookiecutter spec phenomenon is the first step in enjoying skill trees. So what if something isn’t ‘optimal’ according to some boring gits, if it sounds fun or useful to you then that’s the skill to take! And the posts on this thread haven’t so much been tips on what to take, it’s moreso been people just sharing what they want their characters to be like/what their tastes are.
And to join that fun, here’s what my Mordecai might look like:
http://www.borderlandsthegame.com/skilltree/mordecai/#11525512500000005005505
“To me, the point of skills is to allow a player to tailor their gameplay to suit their own preferences, which is always a good thing.”
^ What I think as well. The whole “you MUST select this” attitude is rather dreadful, IMO.
And I understand that there are cases like e.g. hardcore raiding in MMOs where you do need to be a bit more careful with your choices if you wish to beat the hardest things, but that’s never been an excuse for godawful attitude when someone lets their taste do the choosing.
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Frankly, I’m happy playing a sub-optimal build if it means I can play it in a manner that I enjoy, hence why I like poison amazons in D2.
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The problems come in when the game is balanced toward (not *to*, but toward) those optimal builds. Which is another fear of mine when it comes to skill trees. “Well, clearly, they should have a ‘turret guy’ for this section, and a ‘healer guy’ for this boss, and of course they’ll need a ‘plumber guy’ for unclogging this nasty toilet.”
Basically, if you’re not nailing down builds so that you know what player abilities might be present, how are you balancing the gameplay?
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@Weylund: Wherever there are options, there are going to be cookie cutter versions.
Hell, there are actual cookie cutters to make ‘optimally’ shaped cookies. We don’t even have to refer to something special here.
The question is if one requires a circular cookie, or not. In this case, if you take a look at the talents, there’s a lot of ways you can build in each tree. If you compare this to something like WoW, you have three main specs, and then a couple hybrids (Or more easily thought of as PVP and PvE specs). Here, you can build tanks as damage, damage as tanks, and any of them as support.
Of course very few of us can say from experience, but it definitely appears to be a game where the skill tree is more than just token customization. If you’re that worried, wait a week after release. =)
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I don’t get trying to plan a character before you actually play the game and get a feel for it.
(Of course, I do that for paper and pencil D&D all the time, usually without all that much success.)
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Oh wow. What great skill trees. My two favourite skills by concept are Smirk (experience boost from critical hits) and Cauterize (heal friends by shooting them). I like the focus on skills activating on killing. Sounds like a good way to encourage mayhem.
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@Dante: Luckily, Steam performs their own special currency conversions (err, price differences? price specialness?) for me. It’s $50.
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This continues to look great, and considering Gearbox’s track record (the Brothers in Arms games are brilliant) I suspect I’m going to be picking it up very soon.
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I have the “powergamer” virus. Is beyond my control, It reduce any RPG combat system to pulp, and extract the best configurations and mix-max my skills. I just can’t stop it :-(
The virus is very cynical, and Is tellingme that theres not reason to read these trees now. We have to wait to play the game to tell te difference. How important are shields? it seems a lot, but….really? how important is ammo? do people lack ammo often? What bound damage? are critical hits really interesting? do pets take agro? once these questions are resolved, the powergamer on me will crunch numbers and output very simple MixMax settings.
The healty part on me is telling that this trees look fun, and that enforce teamplay of the coop variety, that is a very good thing.
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This still looks like the type of game that will get good reviews (89 Metacritic) and one that everyone will be buzzing about for a little over a month, then be quickly forgotten and not played afterwards.
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I’m all for replayability, but isn’t the transient nature of gaming what keeps developers alive? Games with incredible longevity, especially bastard MMOs, suck money away from the rest of the industry like vacuum attachments on a yoga mat. We should say to publishers: “yes! publish things that can be played and forgotten, so that newer and better titles may supplant them”.
This feeling of being entitled to HUGE! GAME! FOREVAH! is a problem.
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Messing with these skill-trees is a minigame itself, especially when trying to imagine how it would work in the game.
I’m looking forward to try this
http://www.borderlandsthegame.com/skilltree/lilith/#21505050550500005050500
Seems like opportunity to make lots of sudden quick attacks and then just vanish. Me likes :)
But could those here who have played it tell me if Morecai is soloable at all? I know that co-op is the prime aim but I really prefer going solo on Diablo II (but who knows, maybe Borderlands changes this), and I last and best coop memories come from Duke Nukem 3D. Ahem.
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Does anybody know if you can change the appearance of the characters? Or will a team of, say, four Bricks all look the same (I know abilities and weapons will make sure you never get two people using the exact same character, but I’m talking strictly of appearances here)?
In such a loot-centric game it would be nice if you could roll around the wasteland wearing a super rare silly hat or a ridiculous looking medieval breastplate.
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@Buemba
You can change colours during the intro, I don’t think there are any appearance altering items (apart from guns of course):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGCB3-c389w
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Thanks for the link, Diji.
Guess the color customization will have to do for now, but I hope Gearbox considers adding other ways to personalize the player models. Then again, even if they don’t there’s always the inevitable mods…
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Pure-melee phasewalk + daze Lilith build (Controller/Assassin):
http://www.borderlandsthegame.com/skilltree/lilith/#21055550000000005505055
Maximum duration increase and cooldown reduction for phasewalk, plus all the goodies for boosting phasewalk effects and melee damage; should be mad fun to play, phasing in and out of combat combined with devastating melee attacks..
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http://www.borderlandsthegame.com/skilltree/mordecai/#11550000055050055005500
It’s all about the bird. It’s just gonna be a normal FPS, but I get to throw a bird at people.
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Why is Mordecai the Gunslinger who can throw birds at people? That’s Roland’s trick….
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I’m still curious, having never played Diablo much. How replayable is this going to be? And how long will be a full playthrough, assuming there’s some sort of a normal campaign?
I ask this because I’m a cheapskate, and I would like to get my money’s worth. TF2 has spoiled me.
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enemies, loot, and landscape places like bandit camps and stuff is all randomized.
So everytime you start a new game, or play on a new server, it will be different from the last time.
Also there are over 100 side quests in the game. it will take close to 100 hours to get to max level of 50.
It will take 2 play throughs to get to max level.
At any time you can start a new game and the game will start off at the level you are at , so you will have a challenge from the very start no matter what level you are.
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Clearly, Roland is a reference to “Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner,” one of my greatest songs ever. Bollocks to all that “Werewolves of London” crap.
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This has taken me from “curious and hopeful” to “seriously considering preordering if I can get some mates playing”. I don’t think there’s a single character among these four I wouldn’t have fun playing. I mean I even wrote off Roland as being a generic soldier, and I find out he’s also a support-fighter and the best kind of Medic possible; one that heals people by throwing grenades at them.
Seriously; he heals! With explosions! That is the best thing. I really do hope Walker took that and found himself a proper rocket launcher.
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Yes very strangely. But it is a great FAQ that someone but way too much time into (maw)
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I dont know if this information is floating around the net or possibly right under my nose; but does anyobdy know if the game will be supported post-release with new content and bug fixes/patches on the pc version? or is it going to go in an expansion format, if indeed they plan to continue it at all?
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It’s supposed to get DLC. Whether by DLC they mean free content upgrades, bug fixes, and other sorts of post-release goodies we’re used to from Valve and the like (cue L4D2 flames in 3… 2… 1…) or whether they mean paid XBox-style stuff, I don’t know, but if I had to bet I’d bet on the former given what we know so far. They seem to have a pretty good handle on what PC gamers expect.
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That’s good to know, I would have bought it regardless, at 33$ per copy when you do a 4 pack on steam even if it doesnt get content updates that’s still a damn good deal. between this and l4d2 I hope I will at least be somewhat sated until sometime next year. Also, do you have a link or source for them saying it, not that I dont trust you at all, just want to see how they worded it :P
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I have me another, slightly unrelated to levelling/skills question, is there any sort of gore/violence filter or option?
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On a semi-related but not quite note, what’s the language like? It’s rated M for several things, including strong language. Is this a couple of minor profanities, or is this f-bombs being dropped every 3 seconds?
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Previous Gearbox titles have included both language and gore filters. I’ve always thought the mentality that says “I want to shoot people, but I don’t want them to bleed or curse about it” was kind of peculiar, but you can reasonably expect that Borderlands will accommodate your needs.
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@ DarkNoghri – I watched a video just now where a few f-bombs were dropped, but it’s not super heavy (from what I saw).
@Vinraith – Cool thanks. I guess it depends on why you play games, I play games for fun and I do so with my wife, for us it’s primarily about using the resources we have to overcome foes in a variety of ways. it’s a fun and enjoyable experience and my wife doesn’t enjoy blood, gore and dismemberment – and I can happily give or take it, I don’t feel it adds anything significant or deep to the game. That’s just my two cents, and if people feel otherwise, well, that’s why options are a good thing – because then everyone gets to play a fun game the way they want to. :)
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I think it might have more to do with the types of people you play games with. :)
Anyway, I certainly don’t begrudge you the option, and consider toggles vastly superior to the usual other solution (removing gore/language entirely), I’m just a little weirded out by violence without the natural consequences thereof. There’s such a thing as excess, of course, but realistic amounts of blood/language for the context in question actually unsettles me less than their absence. Anyway, to each their own clearly, it’s always good to have options!
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I don’t really mind blood and gore, for the most part. I dislike cursing, however. I don’t curse, myself, and I’d rather not hear it. Mind you, I hear plenty of it down at the University, but that doesn’t mean I have to like it. At least one person I would consider playing this with would be even less tolerant of language than I am, thus my asking.
And when you mention language filters, do you mean it’s totally removed, or just bleeped out?
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No idea, honestly, since it would never have occurred to me to turn that kind of thing off. I would guess bleeped.
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@Vinraith – I guess for me, I prefer -not- to have the associated consequences – speaking of extreme gore and such now. I play games to do things I can’t do in real life, and without the downsides. I don’t get tired when I run for 100 kms, I don’t get arrested when I rob a bank or play the evil villain, I can cast spells, duel wield shotguns without wrenching my arm out when I fire them and all sorts.
Whilst I grant you could feel that the detailed dismemberment of limbs is akin to the smoke/particle effects when firing a gun, for me it’s more akin to the tedious cleaning and maintenance of my gun – not the sort of maintenance we see in games, that is often a mechanic either – but the ‘chore’ kind. ;)
I don’t want to know what the insides of someone looks like, but I do want to shoot them and see them go flying through a wooden fence without anyone/anything actually getting harmed. Fallout 3 for example went too far for me, I want the slo-motion “pow-pow”, not the slow motion “This is what a decapitated molerat looks like close up.” – EVERY TIME I KILL ONE. Gah. I’m similarly perplexed by people who enjoy horror films, I wonder why that sort of thing entertains someone. I saw a post on a forum where they were talking about the Saw game and one of them said, “I would love the option when [character whose name I have forgotten] traps [another forgotten character name] to hit a key and just scream over and over.” and I was left thinking, wow… that sounds fun O_O;
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Yeah, Fallout 3′s VATS kills could get to be a bit much. When I say I’m put off by an absence of “consequence gore,” I mean realistic gore, not slow motion dismemberment and the like.
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@Vinraith – Ah fair enough. Yeah I tend to agree.
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RE: Builds.
My post of “leet build right here” was just what I personally thought could be fun and effective to play as lilith with, but I can see how ‘leet’ was probably a poor choice of words and brings up ideas of cookie cutter builds like diablo’s endgame builds (some would say).
With Borderlands I guess there are going to be builds that are a bit more effective at killing or whatnot than others, but looking at these skill trees, to me it seems it won’t matter too much how you spend your skills, you’ll still manage to do well.
I love fun and pwnage and not dying, so I’m just going to put skills in whatever explodes and kills stuff and keeps me alive. :D
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