By Kieron Gillen on November 24th, 2009 at 6:52 pm.
[18:41] bremxjones3: “Square Enix’s Tokyo developers are to work on the cinematics for Eidos Montreal’s upcoming Deus Ex sequel, the studio’s general manager Stephane D’Astous told us.”
[18:41] Ento: aieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
[18:41] swiss-: noooOOoo
[18:41] bremxjones3: Also, Thief
[18:42] swiss-: all, is lost
Should we be afraid?
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From http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=98475
René “Eidos Montréal Community Guy” (posted earlier today)
“The only CGI they are producing is for the trailer. All in-game cinematics are done in-engine… …Everything in the game is in-engine, no CGI…
…All cut scenes (is that better?) in the game will be in-engine. CGI will remain the domain of video trailers. Hope that clears things up!”
“The concept, story, dialogue, art direction, etc. all come from us [Eidos Montréal] … They are producing our ideas. We are working closely with them every step of the way to ensure the Western Cyberpunk feel is maintained. Fear not.”
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Is this how leaks happen? Or was this just a slip up PR nightmare thing?
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Why must you console-tards break all our nice PC things?!
I kid, I love Final Fantasy, but that’s definitely an odd artistic choice.
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Shit.
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Square-Enix does do very good CGI. Besides, A Deus Ex game will have very few cinematics, so it shouldn’t matter much anyway…right?
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Very good CGI, but their stories are shit, so let’s hope they have no influence there.
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What a shame.
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What a rotten way to go.
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What a shame.
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What a shame.
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Shame a Watt!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NG1qKzIsisU
Now with androgynous spiky haired lead characters.
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Oooookay, I guess.
If they want to win me over,they should remake Deus Ex intro
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My expectations are lowered accordingly.
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Oh come on, the cinematics in the Final Fantasy games is always grand. We just have to hope that Squeenix can stick to making them looking game-centric.
I say this quietly crying in fear of one day seeing Garrett do some sort of flying ninja leap with his cape flowing in beautiful slo-mo and his teeth clenched in an eye-brow raised grin…
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Technically, sure, but the characters sure are fucking dull.
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It is always grand, but it is also always really obviously JRPG. They have a very distinct look and movement which I don’t think fits DX or Thief.
Perhaps they’re fully capable of producing high quality animations in a Western style, I can only judge what I have seen though.
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Can I just point out the cinematics in FF games are generally the best part?
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They’re practically the only part, that doesn’t make them good.
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Awesome, I’m hoping for 30 second cutscenes that play whenever you activate an augmentation.
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Complete with shots of JC running at hyperspeed through a forest and fighting on a grassy plain which has no bearing on his current location? Then will he look solemnly down at the ground while leaves fall slowly?
STRENGTH MOD ACTIVATE!
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So long as Eidos is allowed to enforce a “1 belt per Thief character / 1 zip per Deus Ex character” rule, with cattle-prods, I’ll be willing to see where this goes.
(the other snarky comment I thought was “hey, at least they’re not being allowed near the gameplay…”)
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The cinematics were the best part of Deus Ex and Thiaf and I’m glad they’re spending a huge budget on them for the sequels.
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hmmmm i though it was the masterful story telling and atmosphere that made them good.
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That’s the crux of my despair as well; not too concerned about vision or quality, just … the utterly misplaced resources.
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i dunno they probably are spending oodles of cash on the writing for these games too. its a leak not the company proclaiming a core feature from the top of mount Sinai
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Deus Ex had cinematics?
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Thiefs cinematics were great indeed. But they were not CGI. I shudder at what Square Enix might do to them.
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One of the best things about deus ex was you got to carry out all the action yourself, sure it was third person for some key dialog but if they take control from me for any action I will be VERY annoyed!
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Agreed. The startling thing about Deus Ex was that it wasn’t broken up by cinematics. Between missions you actually went back to base, walked around base, talked to people, it was absolutely remarkable at the time. That sense of immersion, along with the stunning sense of choice in the field, were the two things that really made it stand out. It would be a grievous error to undermine either one of them.
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Oh joy, now we get to see what JC Denton would look like as a flat-chested dickgirl.
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Count me in.
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If you don’t know what that looks like already, you haven’t been on the internet enough.
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We’re probably being a little unfair on square Enix here. They’re being hired to do cinematics, not re-invent JC Denton as an anime character with spiky hair and a ludicrously proportioned sword.
I can understand peoples concern, but I find it hard to believe a professional game studio isnt capable of working to a brief, and producing something in line with concept art and the IP they have been hired to work on.
I never had huge hopes for the sequel after invisible war, but this news doesn’t really change that. Better to be cautiously pessimistic than disappointed.
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They are not being “hired”.
They own Eidos, and Thief and Deus Ex with it.
I say: let them do the cutscenes. Square Enix cutscenes are awesome, you whiners.
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@Cynik
Please tell me you’re being sarcastic.
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Deus Ex + Thief + Final Fantasy = Shoot the bad guy!
Fitting.
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I really don’t understand the negativity. The story is basically “We’re getting our parent company’s awesome CGI team to do our CGI sequences.” Honestly, the snobbishness of the PC gamer can be incredible.
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“awesome CGI team”
That’s the point of contest.
Oh, and speaking for myself this isn’t a console-hate thing, it’s an anime-hate thing.
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What about the pretentiousness of the console gamer? We, as PC gamers want to keep our games good and enjoyable, outside the influence of terribly crappy production coming usually from Asia’s direction when it comes to any kind of roleplaying game.
We have already almost completely lost the FPS as PC gamers, due to ‘consolization’ of so many titles in the past few years, we really don’t want to give an inch more to the consoles, as they are, and always will be inferior platforms to play anything complex on… that is, until they adapt better or completely different control.
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@Vin: Final Fantasy isn’t exactly anime…
And geez, guys! This might be opening a can of worms, but people do exist who like both sets of games, y’know. I’m one of them. Yeah, bring on the Deus Ex, and bring on the Final Fantasy. I love both. The last proper Final Fantasy they released, XII, was actually really, really good, and whilst the plot curtails into far-fetched ridiculousness, the characters and the relationships between them were pretty excellent. The ensemble cast was very strong. FF games aren’t made for hardcore RPG fans, and that’s alright. They’re in between Diablo and Baldur’s Gate. And again, that’s alright. They’re a lean-back RPG. Again, that’s alright. A lot of people will just stick to them, but a lot of people (like me – my first RPG was IX) will branch off. Surely that’s… good?
Not that this makes a difference, because they’re not writing the story – they’re doing the cutscenes. And Final Fantasy’s cutscenes, whatever their narrative content, are to a lofty standard. You can contest whether they’re well shot, but technically, they’re brilliant. And since DE it seems is at least some way into development, I doubt they’re going to easternise them – what would be the point? They don’t have the appeal to Japanese audiences.
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@jsutcliffe: I think what we’re afraid of is basically Big Gun Syndrome. As fans of the predecessors, we are alarmed at the possibility of this cut-scene business being an attempt to make up for pitfalls in other, more important areas of the games.
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That’s odd — as a fan of the series, I’m excited by the prospect of Squenix’s CGI folks doing the FMV sequences. I do remain skeptical about the actual game though, because I wasn’t a big fan of DX:IW (I keep meaning to give it another shot, but I lost the disc a long time ago and don’t want to pay again for a game I remember disliking)
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@The Hammer
Thank you for being one of the few sensible comments on this page.
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Vinraith:
““awesome CGI team”
That’s the point of contest.
Oh, and speaking for myself this isn’t a console-hate thing, it’s an anime-hate thing.”
You can hate animes all you want. You can’t argue that Sqeenix have the best CGI team in the industry (maybe Blizzard comes close, but apart from them… nothing)
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@Kanakotka:
It’s like reading a “White Power!” chant for video games.
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@Kanakotka:
“What about the pretentiousness of the console gamer? We, as PC gamers want to keep our games good and enjoyable, outside the influence of terribly crappy production coming usually from Asia’s direction when it comes to any kind of roleplaying game.
We have already almost completely lost the FPS as PC gamers, due to ‘consolization’ of so many titles in the past few years, we really don’t want to give an inch more to the consoles, as they are, and always will be inferior platforms to play anything complex on… that is, until they adapt better or completely different control.”
TCM: translation:
TCM: “WHITE POWER WHITE POWER”
TCM: i am serious
TCM: i watched an american nazi rally on history channel the other day
TCM: he’s taking the same words and sticking them on video games
PleasingFungus: Oh, really.
PleasingFungus: He’s pretentious and stupid in so many ways!
PleasingFungus: Cutting it to merely “white power” weakens the sheer idiocy of his message.
PleasingFungus: I mean, really, it’s “Logical fallacy, WHITE POWER WHITE POWER, taking things too seriously, poor grasp of history… grammar failure.”
TCM: all of the above
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Certain people at TTLG will explode in the most messy way possible.
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Heh, I may venture outside of Gen Gaming for once to see the fallout.
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Final Flight of the Osiris is probably the closest Square Enix production to what you are likely to see, but sure, lets keep on assuming it’s going to be a load of androgynous spiky haired characters with big eyes and colourful accessory laden outfits.
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Serious thought: Do we need or want an RPS chatroom for non-pro-writey people?
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I believe the answers to that are “yes”, “yes”, and “of course”.
As long as it’s an IRC channel, then I’m all for it. I’ve got 16 or so channels so far. One more won’t hurt.
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Surely character design and CGI cinematics are different areas of work? I’m not saying anything more till i get indepth information. Wish i had a time machine for such events.
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It’s just a CG house, no need for panties to get in any twist, they wont magically look different to the games.
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Square Enix can do male-looking males. Considering that they’ll pretty much be using existing designs, and probably in-game models, it should be decent.
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Without doubt.
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I really liked the stylised Thief cutscenes.. surely a return to them would be cheaper AND more stylish?
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Agreed. The Thief cutscenes had a really unique look to them that I hope remains.
I don’t really see why people aren’t complaining about the potential change in style for the new Thief, but are instead moaning about the chance of the mundane cutscenes of Deus Ex being changed. Being a pure PC player, I don’t know much about Squire Enix’s other work, but I am sure they can do better than the tedious two rigid characters with badly done voice acting talking at each other.
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It’s funny how the opening post can color the rest of the comments. I think it makes sense to use your best assets to do something they’re more experienced at (brings down the cost of the CGI I’d imagine.) The Montreal guys can then focus on making the best game possible.
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How about using some of those resources for a PC port of FF13?
SE acquiring Eidos is too suspicious. I mean they ported FF7 and 8 back in the day… so maybe they’ll…. you know….. right? Right??
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doubt it. much much more money on the consols i bet. also the don have to bother with copyright protection,
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People clearly have a very wrong idea of anime, an ideia that I think is born of ignorance. Sure there is a lot of bad anime but the same is true for movies, music, games etc.
About the cinematics, so long as they do only an intro and the endings I’m fine. Actually my d3us3x/thi4f expectations are already below 0, I’m so apathetic that the cinematics thing just passes through me.
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Yeah? So can you name a single anime that shows a style you think would be an appropriate fit for Deus Ex?
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Ghost in the Shell
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Second the above, possibly Full Metal Panic!, possibly Death Note (in general tone and artstyle, not storyline).
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the main thing I’m worried about here is whether theres been a shift in the overall philosophy behind the games in general. hiring a big name like Square-Enix just for the cut scenes seems to me like they are going about it like a big budget Hollywood action movie. i think a good example of this tonal shift would be the difference between Pitch Black and chronicles of Riddick.
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They’re not exactly hiring Square Enix — they’re owned by them. it seems natural that they’d take an interest in a high-profile franchise.
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People clearly have a very wrong idea of anime, an idea that I think is born of ignorance. Sure there is a lot of bad anime but the same is true for movies, music, games etc.
About the cinematics, so long as they do only an intro and the endings I’m fine. Actually my d3us3x/thi4f expectations are already below 0, I’m so apathetic that the cinematics thing just passes through me.
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Didn’t these guys bankrupt themselves proving they couldn’t make CG characters behave like real people?
Maybe it just means they’ve got a lot of rendering tech not doing a whole lot right now and please give their begging asses a job.
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For all the Square/Anime bashing going on here, I just have to counter that with…
Square do the best CGI on the planet, without a doubt – Pixar may do the best animation and storytelling, but when it comes to realism, no one beats Square. Spirits within, while a failure of storytelling and so a dull movie was years ahead of it’s time – a massive step forward for CGI, and an unbelievable technological achievement.
An achievement that cost them 160 million dollars (production and marketing), and caused Square’s movie branch to go bust.
Silver lining though – the technology, the assets, and the expertise from that failed movie, have earned undoubtedly square the company vastly more than they lost on Spirits within (which with DVD sales and TV rights has probably broken even by now, or at least gotten close) – It’s probably paid for itself in asset reuse in other projects alone.
Square also have the best texture artists in the world, seriously have a look at spirits within bluray 1080p, it looks amazing still, and it was released in 2001.
The bad thing though with realism, is that damned uncanny valley, photorealism for everything except humans, because they are so real looking, the slight wrongness about their animation, movement and subtleties just creep people out.
Like those realistic looking dolls, and robots… creepy.
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“Didn’t these guys bankrupt themselves proving they couldn’t make CG characters behave like real people?”
No. They went bankrupt because they didn’t have a descent script and let one of their game-writers write it. Their animations were extremely realistic, and still are among the best when it comes to “realistic looking, rendered humans”. Definitely 10 times better then Blizzard’s in that field.
Even Final Fantasy VIII, which came out in 98 or so, had better (CGI) animations then any Blizzard game to date.
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What about the pretentiousness of the console gamer? We, as PC gamers want to keep our games good and enjoyable, outside the influence of terribly crappy production coming usually from Asia’s direction when it comes to any kind of roleplaying game.
We have already almost completely lost the FPS as PC gamers, due to ‘consolization’ of so many titles in the past few years, we really don’t want to give an inch more to the consoles, as they are, and always will be inferior platforms to play anything complex on… that is, until they adapt better or completely different control.
Stars off with the pretentiousness of the console gamer and then goes on to that waffle :D
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i for one welcome our new asian overlords
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I don’t want to be ruled by birds!
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how i mispell avian is beyond me
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I don’t think the problem here is what company is doing the cinematics, but that there are cinematics in the first place. Deus Ex was all the better for having you see everything with your own eyes. The intro movie was so vague at the start of the game that it could have been left out anyway.
But then, I’m rather apathetic to a sequel to a game that depends for a large part on shocking discoveries. There’s a conspiracy, you say? I wouldn’t have guessed…
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I’m going to miss Thief’s cut scenes. Despite being just above Pugwash in terms of technical difficulty, they were effective and distinctive. Hopefully this isn’t an omen about the rest of what made Theif interesting.
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no one actually believed that deus ex 3 was in any way related to deus ex, so why is everyone moaning, cinematics is the only thing square enix do well and if deus ex 3 is to deus ex what bioshock was to system shock 2 then i’d be a very happy bunny, nice cinematics thrown into the bargin is a good thing.
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Do you mean better looking but watered down?
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More Kidneythieves please. The one good thing I took away from Invisible War.
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Honestly do these games even need fancy expensive cutscenes? The graphical capabilities that the engines of today can pump out can surely outclass the CGI from Deus Ex and T1/2.
In-Game cutscenes ftw?
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I’m not sure whether I’m more offended by the fact that Deus Ex will have cinematic cutscenes or the fact that Square Enix will be doing them… :|
Does not bode well…
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Honestly, I’m going to reserve judgment on this one for awhile. Square Enix has done a remarkable job (I think) of creating CGI. We shouldn’t really make the assumption that it will look exactly like japanese anime or something. Like Collic was saying, Square Enix is full of talented and professional artists, I’m sure they’re aware that Deus Ex and Thief are not Final Fantasy 14 and 15. Some have said that this is sort of hinting at a philosophy shift, but maybe they’re trying to stay committed to the vision of the game itself, and they don’t want to use production time on creating CGI or whatever.
Of course, some people “hate” CGI for reasons I cannot comprehend. I can only assume it’s because some console games have CGI :)
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They should have got the guys who did the Dawn of War 2 cinematic.
In reponse to some of the other commenters I doubt that there are going to be cinematics in the actual game, probably just a cinematic lead in (as in Deus Ex 2, and actually pretty much all single player games come to think of it) and/or one at the end. So I doubt it’s going to destroy your immersion; the inevitable silly UI will probably do that.
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Deus Ex 3 designer Jean-Francois Dugas calls the original title “kind of slow,” explaining that “there weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments. It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience.”
Last games this guy worked on?
The shitty console versions of Far Cry (Far Cry: Instincts):
http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,162262/
Deus Ex is in great hands.
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Thanks for ruining my evening. >:(
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Agreed. Considering the space limitations on a 360 single disc ill take in game videos please. CGI cut scenes used to be kinda cool like with Diablo. Nowadays they waste precious space and really kinda remove you from the fun.
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Anything lower than 720p looks like crap on high end monitors. So yes, if you want cutscenes, if you must have them make them in game.
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This really should be filed under angry internet men. In fact, these people should form a boycott. Those are popular I hear.
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If people would read the linked article they’d see that all that’s being suggested is Squenix creating pre-release trailers and the opening cinematic, which is hardly worth twisting knickers over. I’m quite interested to see what they’ll do with a grittier setting, as most Squenix cinematics I’ve seen have been in JRPGs, which are generally rather brighter.
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Y’know, for all we know the only cinematics in Deus Ex 3 will be the intro and the extro.
I also very much doubt that SquEnix will do the Thi4f cinematics, since those are obviously going to be somewhat-animated watercolours/pastels/proper-drawn-art-whatever-you-want-to-call-it.
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@Jstucliffe
They did the Flight of the Osiris segment in Animatrix. I’m just worried about Mr. Designer guy putting in 15 minute cutscenes in substitute for gameplay because “there weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments.”
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Actually, all the Tokyo studio have ever done is Final Fantasy to the better part of my knowledge. The North American studio were responsible for flight of the osiris and spirits within (and FOTO was written and directed by outside people anyway).
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As they say in Montreal – merde.
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More like “câlisse!”
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Wait… games other than JRPGs still use out of game engine cutscenes? Square can make all the silly “Cinematic Trailers” they want, I hope the game isn’t an FMV-fest though.
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The out-of-engine cutscenes in the first two Thief games were one of the highlights of the series.
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I also quite enjoyed the cut scenes in Mirror’s Edge. They were a nice change of style from the main game, and quite entertaining, although the animation was rather ropey in places.
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I always thought the quality of the cgi was well above par from square, the character design of lady boys never quite suited my pallet though.
Often i find myself wondering if a character on a cover is a male or female, and whether i should be at all concerned i find some attractive.
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This is good news. It slightly increases the chances of one/both of the these games actually getting as far being released. I’m still doubtful that that will happen.
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For all the Square/Anime bashing going on here, I just have to counter that with…
Square do the best CGI on the planet, without a doubt – Pixar may do the best animation and storytelling, but when it comes to realism, no one beats Square. Spirits within, while a failure of storytelling and so a dull movie was years ahead of it’s time – a massive step forward for CGI, and an unbelievable technological achievement.
An achievement that cost them 160 million dollars (production and marketing), and caused Square’s movie branch to go bust.
Silver lining though – the technology, the assets, and the expertise from that failed movie, have earned undoubtedly square the company vastly more than they lost on Spirits within (which with DVD sales and TV rights has probably broken even by now, or at least gotten close) – It’s probably paid for itself in asset reuse in other projects alone.
Square also have the best texture artists in the world, seriously have a look at spirits within bluray 1080p, it looks amazing still, and it was released in 2001.
The bad thing though with realism, is that damned uncanny valley, photorealism for everything except humans, because they are so real looking, the slight wrongness about their animation, movement and subtleties just creep people out.
Like those realistic looking dolls, and robots… creepy.
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Huh?
Bad comment system, bad! No treat for you tonight!
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I think ILM and WETA are a bit ahead of Square in that department actually.
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Spirits Within was not made by this Tokyo Studio as far as I know.
And the problem today is not really polygon-pumping technology, it’s rather quality animation (as in motion, facial expressions, etc). I would put even Valve’s L4D(2) videos in the same category. Several games have very convincing in-game animations and facial expressions for cut-scenes nowadays. Animating hair and cloth is no magic with today’s 3D software either (Maya & Co). I generally always felt like the Square animations are a bit too slow/soft, kinda like surfaces always looked to soft/plastic in the old times of computer graphics.
This is more about style and feel than about pure craftsmanship, which is why I think the decision to hire them is questionable. I like my Final Fantasy, I like my Deus Ex (a little more, to be honest…). But a style combination could end up really bad.
It’s also a slap in the face for anyone who was concerned the merger with console giant square could end up pushing Deus Ex into a weird direction.
But yea, things like regenerating health, 3rd person scripted cover, no skill system and a “Renaissance style” future-look for a world supposed to be only 20 years or so in the future (appearing more futuristic than the original DX set in the year 2052)… are all worse signs than any cut-scene could ever be.
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OH NONE THOSE ORIENTALS AR POLLUTING MY FINE AMERICAN GAMING
get a grip you wieners.
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What a shame.
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[that was in reply to "What a shame". Damnit i've broken the What a shame train!]
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What a shame (the train was broken).
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Wot a Shame.
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What a shame
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I’m indifferent to it. As was mentioned earlier, the lead designers quote about the first one ‘not having enough memorable moments’ made me not care at all what happens with it.
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Also guys, Square can do dark and gritty when they want (and do it well), in evidence I put forth…
Kingdom Hearts.
Kidding.
Vagrant Story – Which while it had it’s JRPG elements was very western in it’s style, a brilliant mix of Eastern and Western RPG, and in my opinion probably the best game (after FF7 obviously) Square ever made.
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Androgynous Garrett with a sword that’s obviously compensating for something confirmed!
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Anime Denton confirmed
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facepalm.jpg
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Ergo Proxy
(just tried to check this with google image search and EVERY image is of Real. You’ll have to take my word for it that theres other stuff.)
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What?? I’m sure I didn’t press back, I just pressed reply :(
anyway, this was another suggestion for anime that would fit Deus Ex. Ghost in the Shell is better.
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Tracer Tong made ro look caucasian confirmed
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What you guys this sounds awesome
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fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
That’s quite enough. I’ve been quick to defend DX3 thus far, but I’m not sure I like where this is going.
And the same can be said manifold times with Thief. Somehow I can’t see Square quite hitting all the spots that Thief’s excellent briefings and cutscenes managed. Though we shall see.
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Just where is the RPS channel, anyway? Furious googling seems to have failed me, which is astounding.
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It’s the Steam Community RPS group!
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René “Eidos Montréal Community Guy” (posted earlier today)
“The only CGI they are producing is for the trailer”
Source: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=98475
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Man, there’e a whole lot of mindless Square hating here.
They do make games other than final fantasy, you know. Front Mission, for instance, one of the most gritty realistic (almost cripplingly so) mech strategy games out there.
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Then again, I guess this is what happens when PC gamers continue to pass off everything that is not PC gaming as awful. Sad, really. And hypocritical. And all sorts of other, more nasty, vitriolic terms.
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I like how “hating JRPG’s/anime” somehow = “PC elitism” in so many poster’s minds. I own several consoles, have tons of games I enjoy for them, but can’t stand the game play or art style of JRPG’s. It doesn’t have anything to do with platform elitism, and trying to start a PC vs. console flame war about something that has nothing to do with that particular false dichotomy is unusually silly for several of the people doing it here.
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I am huge on Front Mission (despite its new emasculation as “Armored Core not made by From Software”). I am equally full of dislike for everything I’ve heard about DX 3. Are you going to tell us that you think that Square will actually not fuck up this franchise too? Since apparently americanizing games means making them shitty.
Also JRPGs and DX have zero in common. It’s natural for most people to scratch their heads and whiskey tango foxtrot. Nor does the art style of the FM series mesh with that of DX. I’m going to have to ask you to put your jump to conclusions mat away for the time being.
Even with all the supposed Anime hate I very much doubt the reaction would be the same if it were Studio I.G. instead. At least we know that they know how to do cyberpunk and do it extremely well. That is, unless they gave a female Denton the Major’s pneumatic boobs.
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@Vinraith:
It’s more the fact they’re being written off as androgynous nonsense. It’s pretty clear to me that both JRPGs and WRPGs have had a lot of influence on each other, and there’s whirlwinds of worth in both. Dragon Age, for example, has a prompt system during battles which is similar to the Gambit system in Final Fantasy 12, whilst that game is heavily inspired by MMOs, and has one of the more western, grounded plots of the FF series (comparatively, at least).
But if people are going to focus on the sexuality stuff (It’s kind of weird to hear such stern comments when users on this site often rail against the extreme machoism you see in Gears of War) and write off the stories as rubbish, then of course, people are going to say: “Hang on a minute, stop being so elitist about your own favourite style of game.”
The two genres are not mutually exclusive to each other. Sure, there’s a marked difference, and one more apparent than something like Japanese racing games and American racing games (Gran Turismo versus Forza, for example), but they’ve both got origins in Dungeons and Dragons.
Perhaps there are too many cutscenes in JRPGs. Perhaps they’re too linear. Perhaps they’re more about a passive story than an active story. Perhaps those stories tend to get ridiculous. Perhaps they represent the worst excesses of scant clothing in gaming. Perhaps they don’t give the players’ actions any real consequence. Perhaps they contain caricatures rather than charcters.
But perhaps WRPGs like BGII are just too difficult to get into. Perhaps they’ve a reliance on numbers over presentation. Perhaps the dialogue can be long-winded and po-faced. Perhaps they don’t give enough hint of what to do next. Perhaps they’re too punishing on the player. Perhaps they represent the worst excesses of sitting-in-a-bedroom-poring-over-character-sheets-and-trying-to-get-it-on-with-a-virtual-character in gaming. Perhaps they give too much of an emphasis on words to describe, when computer gaming is all about the interactivity, the visual, and the audio.
These are valid criticisms that could be directed to either of these types of game. But it is a good thing that both types of game exist. There’s more to play, more to experience, and more to take from. There’s a space for JRPGs on PCs, just as there is a space for DMC4, or Microsoft Flight Simulator.
But more than that, there’s space for a Japanese company to contribute to the starting and ending FMVs of a Western game series. And when we say Western, we mean American. There is a huge culture difference between Britain and America, but that doesn’t stop collaborations such as GTA being kickass.
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What Hammer said.
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Yeah, what Psychopomp said about what Hammer said
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@The Hammer
I fail to see how your essay supports your conclusion, so I’ll address each separately. Regarding the essay on JRPG’s vs. Western RPG’s (which is out of place here, being as Square is in no way involved in DX3/T4 beyond FMV as I understand it) I’ll keep it short: I’ve no interest in being objective. Everything you list about JRPG’s nicely summarize why I find them to be unplayable dreck. Everything you list about western RPG’s illustrates why, as a long time table top and pen and paper gamer, I consider them the only proper computerized implementation of pen and paper RPG’s. That legitimate criticisms can be lobbied against both is immaterial, I want to see games made that I enjoy playing.
As to your conclusion, specifically: “But more than that, there’s space for a Japanese company to contribute to the starting and ending FMVs of a Western game series.”
Of course there is. However, 1) the choice of a company notorious for a certain kind of FMV provides insight into the desired look/feel of the promotional materials and cinematics for these games. I’m sure we’re not talking anime here, but a certain narrative excess is a Square trademark and many of us are concerned that a company known for such is being chosen to work on FMV’s for games that don’t support such a tone. 2) This represents a serious misappropriation of resources. We’re talking about, at least in the case of DX3 (I can’t speak for the Thief series) a series that is pretty much the opposite of cinematic-driven. The most astounding things about the original DX was that you basically never broke character, control was never taken away from you. That may still be the case (the article implies as much) but why would a game built around choice and immersion utilize a sizable chunk of budget to hire an outside FMV house to create the one thing many of us would agree it doesn’t need at all: cinematics.
I think these are reasonable sources of concern.
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Oh, and as an added bonus, neither your essay nor your conclusion addressed my orgiinal question: why are people trying to start a PC vs. console flame war about a problem that’s got nothing to do with platform? :)
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Okay, this has been posted three times now, so pay attention
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1221875&postcount=21
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@Psychopomp
I’ve read that already, I fail to see how it addresses either of the two concerns ennumerated in my response the The Hammer, much like I fail to see how The Hammer’s lengthy response has anything to do with my original reply to TCM.
Specifically, I’m not concerned about Squeenix providing things like art direction, I’m concerned that the developer’s art direction made it appropriate for them to hire Squeenix.
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“See above comment. We were totally aware of the Japanese style of cinematics and art right from the beginning – that’s why all that stuff is being done by us. They are producing our ideas. We are working closely with them every step of the way to ensure the Western Cyberpunk feel is maintained. Fear not.”
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“to ensure Western Cyberbunk feel is maintained”
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Portray that as PR speak if you want, but I’m not sure how else they can prove it, until they make the trailer: “The only CGI they are producing is for the trailer. All in-game cinematics are done in-engine. Again, fear not.”
Also:
“We have already almost completely lost the FPS as PC gamers, due to ‘consolization’ of so many titles in the past few years, we really don’t want to give an inch more to the consoles, as they are, and always will be inferior platforms to play anything complex on… that is, until they adapt better or completely different control.
Stars off with the pretentiousness of the console gamer and then goes on to that waffle :D”
“What about the pretentiousness of the console gamer? We, as PC gamers want to keep our games good and enjoyable, outside the influence of terribly crappy production coming usually from Asia’s direction when it comes to any kind of roleplaying game.
We have already almost completely lost the FPS as PC gamers, due to ‘consolization’ of so many titles in the past few years, we really don’t want to give an inch more to the consoles, as they are, and always will be inferior platforms to play anything complex on… that is, until they adapt better or completely different control.”
THAT is what people are responding to. THAT. That’s the PC versus stuff, earlier on in the thread.
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Vin, they didn’t hire Squeenix. Squeenix owns Eidos.
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Um… if they’re only producing the CGI for the trailer, and they’re only doing the animation, what’s the problem? Their cutscenes are of an exceptional graphical quality, so that sounds like a good reason to get them to do the animation.
Maybe if they were also doing the dialogue/direction/leading art style there’d be cause for complaint, as their art style is very distinct from DE and Thief, but there’s no reason to believe that’s the case, as nobody in their right mind would hire someone to make a cutscene that didn’t remotely capture what the game is trying to get at, as it would be pointless.
That said, Blizzard do prettier, more dramatic, weighty feeling cutscenes, in my opinion.
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‘That said, Blizzard do prettier, more dramatic, weighty feeling cutscenes, in my opinion.’
Was thinkin’ the same thing.
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Square produce some of the most incredible CGI out there. There’s no reason to automatically assume the visual style they’ve used on JRPGs like the Final Fantasy series is the style they would use on DX3 or Thief. Now, granted, I’d kill for them to bring back the incredibly stylish cutscenes from the first two Thief games, but I think those already went out the window in Deadly Shadows, no?
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Yep – it is slightly bizarre that a company that makes very good CGI is being vilified as some kind of one trick pony, particularly given that we don’t know what role CGI will play in either game. Could just be opening or closing scenes?
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They are doing the trailers only.
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Wow talk about PC gamer snobbery/elitism in full force here, so what if Square-Enix are doing some CGI work they are one of the best in the world at it and all the asshats are squealing that its going to be all cliche anime style, this why PC gamers get a bad reputation.
As if Square-Enix a very large company who has been expanding into western markets would deliberately sabotage a huge release.
What makes this all comical is Deus Ex had a hint of anime style to it in the first place.
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How to send PC purists into a screaming, running-in-circles Chicken Little panic: Whisper ‘Japanese games’ in their ear.
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A bomb!
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Sounds…good? I don’t know what you’re all bitching about.
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Square Enix (and many, many other Japanese/Korean developers) are so bad at storytelling in trailers/FMVs – editing like it was done by an old, hoarding cat-lady (you know, the crazy type that keep stacked boxes of old newspapers in their depressingly decrepit house); absolutely no sense of direction or purpose; unexplained assumptions about characters; a perplexing propensity for jarring intermissions – lots of art and pretty flourishes poured uselessly into an incomprehensible mess.
Here’s to hoping they only handle rendering, and don’t touch the direction.
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Really don’t think Square Enix are appropriate for Thief, at least. This isn’t because of ANIMU or anything, just that their forte is high-definition CGI rendered splendour and that’s not what Thief’s cutscenes were about in the slightest.
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They are from Japan so they should know what cyberpunk is about, I guess?
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The real issue here is that this thread has 130+ comments.
Blizzard cutscenes are awesome.
Blizzard artstyle is not what is expected of a cyberpunk game.
Would anyone here complain if the cutscenes were given to Blizzard?
Don’t make me go into the prejudices involved here…
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Bah! Rust Monkey’s work was integral to Thief’s identity! Of course they aren’t around any more but I hope like hell Squeenix do their damndest to capture that feel.
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Eh…
I wish I could say that was my biggest concern about EM and their Deus Ex 3 approach.
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Hold on a moment good sirs! Bit-tech reports that Deus Ex 3 is PC exclusive “due to its complexity”.
IS THIS TRUE RPS HIVEMIND??!!!
If so, interest suddenly reignited.
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That would seem a pretty risky path to take considering the seeming expense of it – Eidos Montreal is a big team and its a multi-year project.
On the other hand, Deus Ex has never sold well on the consoles.
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Sad :(
Loved the subtlety of the original vignettes from thief. I really really hope against all probability that they don’t overblow it and hollywoodise it.
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Cry some more, bitches. I think that sounds awesome. In-engine cinematics in Deus Ex sucked.
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Squeenix = best CGI?
Blizzard and Blur Studios want a word with you…
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