Fresh from the RPS Chatroom: DX3/T4 News

By Kieron Gillen on November 24th, 2009 at 6:52 pm.

Fuckity-fuck-fuck-fuck
[18:41] bremxjones3: “Square Enix’s Tokyo developers are to work on the cinematics for Eidos Montreal’s upcoming Deus Ex sequel, the studio’s general manager Stephane D’Astous told us.”
[18:41] Ento: aieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
[18:41] swiss-: noooOOoo
[18:41] bremxjones3: Also, Thief
[18:42] swiss-: all, is lost

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157 Comments »

  1. KawaiiSlime says:

    @Jstucliffe

    They did the Flight of the Osiris segment in Animatrix. I’m just worried about Mr. Designer guy putting in 15 minute cutscenes in substitute for gameplay because “there weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments.”

    • Benny says:

      Actually, all the Tokyo studio have ever done is Final Fantasy to the better part of my knowledge. The North American studio were responsible for flight of the osiris and spirits within (and FOTO was written and directed by outside people anyway).

  2. destroy.all.monsters says:

    As they say in Montreal – merde.

  3. Spoon says:

    Wait… games other than JRPGs still use out of game engine cutscenes? Square can make all the silly “Cinematic Trailers” they want, I hope the game isn’t an FMV-fest though.

    • Jason Moyer says:

      The out-of-engine cutscenes in the first two Thief games were one of the highlights of the series.

    • sinister agent says:

      I also quite enjoyed the cut scenes in Mirror’s Edge. They were a nice change of style from the main game, and quite entertaining, although the animation was rather ropey in places.

  4. Wixard says:

    I always thought the quality of the cgi was well above par from square, the character design of lady boys never quite suited my pallet though.

    Often i find myself wondering if a character on a cover is a male or female, and whether i should be at all concerned i find some attractive.

  5. Michael says:

    This is good news. It slightly increases the chances of one/both of the these games actually getting as far being released. I’m still doubtful that that will happen.

  6. Starky says:

    For all the Square/Anime bashing going on here, I just have to counter that with…

    Square do the best CGI on the planet, without a doubt – Pixar may do the best animation and storytelling, but when it comes to realism, no one beats Square. Spirits within, while a failure of storytelling and so a dull movie was years ahead of it’s time – a massive step forward for CGI, and an unbelievable technological achievement.
    An achievement that cost them 160 million dollars (production and marketing), and caused Square’s movie branch to go bust.

    Silver lining though – the technology, the assets, and the expertise from that failed movie, have earned undoubtedly square the company vastly more than they lost on Spirits within (which with DVD sales and TV rights has probably broken even by now, or at least gotten close) – It’s probably paid for itself in asset reuse in other projects alone.
    Square also have the best texture artists in the world, seriously have a look at spirits within bluray 1080p, it looks amazing still, and it was released in 2001.

    The bad thing though with realism, is that damned uncanny valley, photorealism for everything except humans, because they are so real looking, the slight wrongness about their animation, movement and subtleties just creep people out.
    Like those realistic looking dolls, and robots… creepy.

    • Starky says:

      Huh?
      Bad comment system, bad! No treat for you tonight!

    • Rostock says:

      I think ILM and WETA are a bit ahead of Square in that department actually.

    • hoff says:

      Spirits Within was not made by this Tokyo Studio as far as I know.

      And the problem today is not really polygon-pumping technology, it’s rather quality animation (as in motion, facial expressions, etc). I would put even Valve’s L4D(2) videos in the same category. Several games have very convincing in-game animations and facial expressions for cut-scenes nowadays. Animating hair and cloth is no magic with today’s 3D software either (Maya & Co). I generally always felt like the Square animations are a bit too slow/soft, kinda like surfaces always looked to soft/plastic in the old times of computer graphics.

      This is more about style and feel than about pure craftsmanship, which is why I think the decision to hire them is questionable. I like my Final Fantasy, I like my Deus Ex (a little more, to be honest…). But a style combination could end up really bad.

      It’s also a slap in the face for anyone who was concerned the merger with console giant square could end up pushing Deus Ex into a weird direction.

      But yea, things like regenerating health, 3rd person scripted cover, no skill system and a “Renaissance style” future-look for a world supposed to be only 20 years or so in the future (appearing more futuristic than the original DX set in the year 2052)… are all worse signs than any cut-scene could ever be.

  7. Hulk Hogan says:

    OH NONE THOSE ORIENTALS AR POLLUTING MY FINE AMERICAN GAMING

    get a grip you wieners.

  8. Katsumoto says:

    What a shame.

  9. Shalrath says:

    I’m indifferent to it. As was mentioned earlier, the lead designers quote about the first one ‘not having enough memorable moments’ made me not care at all what happens with it.

  10. Starky says:

    Also guys, Square can do dark and gritty when they want (and do it well), in evidence I put forth…

    Kingdom Hearts.

    Kidding.

    Vagrant Story – Which while it had it’s JRPG elements was very western in it’s style, a brilliant mix of Eastern and Western RPG, and in my opinion probably the best game (after FF7 obviously) Square ever made.

  11. zak canard says:

    Androgynous Garrett with a sword that’s obviously compensating for something confirmed!

  12. fulis says:

    Anime Denton confirmed

  13. dspair says:

    facepalm.jpg

  14. Lacero says:

    Ergo Proxy

    (just tried to check this with google image search and EVERY image is of Real. You’ll have to take my word for it that theres other stuff.)

    • Lacero says:

      What?? I’m sure I didn’t press back, I just pressed reply :(

      anyway, this was another suggestion for anime that would fit Deus Ex. Ghost in the Shell is better.

  15. Benny says:

    Tracer Tong made ro look caucasian confirmed

  16. Joe says:

    What you guys this sounds awesome

  17. StalinsGhost says:

    fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

    That’s quite enough. I’ve been quick to defend DX3 thus far, but I’m not sure I like where this is going.

    And the same can be said manifold times with Thief. Somehow I can’t see Square quite hitting all the spots that Thief’s excellent briefings and cutscenes managed. Though we shall see.

  18. bbot says:

    Just where is the RPS channel, anyway? Furious googling seems to have failed me, which is astounding.

  19. TeeJay says:

    René “Eidos Montréal Community Guy” (posted earlier today)

    “The only CGI they are producing is for the trailer”

    Source: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=98475

  20. TCM says:

    Man, there’e a whole lot of mindless Square hating here.

    They do make games other than final fantasy, you know. Front Mission, for instance, one of the most gritty realistic (almost cripplingly so) mech strategy games out there.

    • TCM says:

      Then again, I guess this is what happens when PC gamers continue to pass off everything that is not PC gaming as awful. Sad, really. And hypocritical. And all sorts of other, more nasty, vitriolic terms.

    • Vinraith says:

      I like how “hating JRPG’s/anime” somehow = “PC elitism” in so many poster’s minds. I own several consoles, have tons of games I enjoy for them, but can’t stand the game play or art style of JRPG’s. It doesn’t have anything to do with platform elitism, and trying to start a PC vs. console flame war about something that has nothing to do with that particular false dichotomy is unusually silly for several of the people doing it here.

    • destroy.all.monsters says:

      I am huge on Front Mission (despite its new emasculation as “Armored Core not made by From Software”). I am equally full of dislike for everything I’ve heard about DX 3. Are you going to tell us that you think that Square will actually not fuck up this franchise too? Since apparently americanizing games means making them shitty.

      Also JRPGs and DX have zero in common. It’s natural for most people to scratch their heads and whiskey tango foxtrot. Nor does the art style of the FM series mesh with that of DX. I’m going to have to ask you to put your jump to conclusions mat away for the time being.

      Even with all the supposed Anime hate I very much doubt the reaction would be the same if it were Studio I.G. instead. At least we know that they know how to do cyberpunk and do it extremely well. That is, unless they gave a female Denton the Major’s pneumatic boobs.

    • The Hammer says:

      @Vinraith:

      It’s more the fact they’re being written off as androgynous nonsense. It’s pretty clear to me that both JRPGs and WRPGs have had a lot of influence on each other, and there’s whirlwinds of worth in both. Dragon Age, for example, has a prompt system during battles which is similar to the Gambit system in Final Fantasy 12, whilst that game is heavily inspired by MMOs, and has one of the more western, grounded plots of the FF series (comparatively, at least).

      But if people are going to focus on the sexuality stuff (It’s kind of weird to hear such stern comments when users on this site often rail against the extreme machoism you see in Gears of War) and write off the stories as rubbish, then of course, people are going to say: “Hang on a minute, stop being so elitist about your own favourite style of game.”

      The two genres are not mutually exclusive to each other. Sure, there’s a marked difference, and one more apparent than something like Japanese racing games and American racing games (Gran Turismo versus Forza, for example), but they’ve both got origins in Dungeons and Dragons.

      Perhaps there are too many cutscenes in JRPGs. Perhaps they’re too linear. Perhaps they’re more about a passive story than an active story. Perhaps those stories tend to get ridiculous. Perhaps they represent the worst excesses of scant clothing in gaming. Perhaps they don’t give the players’ actions any real consequence. Perhaps they contain caricatures rather than charcters.

      But perhaps WRPGs like BGII are just too difficult to get into. Perhaps they’ve a reliance on numbers over presentation. Perhaps the dialogue can be long-winded and po-faced. Perhaps they don’t give enough hint of what to do next. Perhaps they’re too punishing on the player. Perhaps they represent the worst excesses of sitting-in-a-bedroom-poring-over-character-sheets-and-trying-to-get-it-on-with-a-virtual-character in gaming. Perhaps they give too much of an emphasis on words to describe, when computer gaming is all about the interactivity, the visual, and the audio.

      These are valid criticisms that could be directed to either of these types of game. But it is a good thing that both types of game exist. There’s more to play, more to experience, and more to take from. There’s a space for JRPGs on PCs, just as there is a space for DMC4, or Microsoft Flight Simulator.

      But more than that, there’s space for a Japanese company to contribute to the starting and ending FMVs of a Western game series. And when we say Western, we mean American. There is a huge culture difference between Britain and America, but that doesn’t stop collaborations such as GTA being kickass.

    • Psychopomp says:

      What Hammer said.

    • Bhazor says:

      Yeah, what Psychopomp said about what Hammer said

    • Vinraith says:

      @The Hammer

      I fail to see how your essay supports your conclusion, so I’ll address each separately. Regarding the essay on JRPG’s vs. Western RPG’s (which is out of place here, being as Square is in no way involved in DX3/T4 beyond FMV as I understand it) I’ll keep it short: I’ve no interest in being objective. Everything you list about JRPG’s nicely summarize why I find them to be unplayable dreck. Everything you list about western RPG’s illustrates why, as a long time table top and pen and paper gamer, I consider them the only proper computerized implementation of pen and paper RPG’s. That legitimate criticisms can be lobbied against both is immaterial, I want to see games made that I enjoy playing.

      As to your conclusion, specifically: “But more than that, there’s space for a Japanese company to contribute to the starting and ending FMVs of a Western game series.”

      Of course there is. However, 1) the choice of a company notorious for a certain kind of FMV provides insight into the desired look/feel of the promotional materials and cinematics for these games. I’m sure we’re not talking anime here, but a certain narrative excess is a Square trademark and many of us are concerned that a company known for such is being chosen to work on FMV’s for games that don’t support such a tone. 2) This represents a serious misappropriation of resources. We’re talking about, at least in the case of DX3 (I can’t speak for the Thief series) a series that is pretty much the opposite of cinematic-driven. The most astounding things about the original DX was that you basically never broke character, control was never taken away from you. That may still be the case (the article implies as much) but why would a game built around choice and immersion utilize a sizable chunk of budget to hire an outside FMV house to create the one thing many of us would agree it doesn’t need at all: cinematics.

      I think these are reasonable sources of concern.

    • Vinraith says:

      Oh, and as an added bonus, neither your essay nor your conclusion addressed my orgiinal question: why are people trying to start a PC vs. console flame war about a problem that’s got nothing to do with platform? :)

    • Psychopomp says:

      Okay, this has been posted three times now, so pay attention

      http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1221875&postcount=21

    • Vinraith says:

      @Psychopomp
      I’ve read that already, I fail to see how it addresses either of the two concerns ennumerated in my response the The Hammer, much like I fail to see how The Hammer’s lengthy response has anything to do with my original reply to TCM.
      Specifically, I’m not concerned about Squeenix providing things like art direction, I’m concerned that the developer’s art direction made it appropriate for them to hire Squeenix.

    • The Hammer says:

      “See above comment. We were totally aware of the Japanese style of cinematics and art right from the beginning – that’s why all that stuff is being done by us. They are producing our ideas. We are working closely with them every step of the way to ensure the Western Cyberpunk feel is maintained. Fear not.”

      ?

      “to ensure Western Cyberbunk feel is maintained”

      ?

      Portray that as PR speak if you want, but I’m not sure how else they can prove it, until they make the trailer: “The only CGI they are producing is for the trailer. All in-game cinematics are done in-engine. Again, fear not.”

      Also:

      “We have already almost completely lost the FPS as PC gamers, due to ‘consolization’ of so many titles in the past few years, we really don’t want to give an inch more to the consoles, as they are, and always will be inferior platforms to play anything complex on… that is, until they adapt better or completely different control.

      Stars off with the pretentiousness of the console gamer and then goes on to that waffle :D”

      “What about the pretentiousness of the console gamer? We, as PC gamers want to keep our games good and enjoyable, outside the influence of terribly crappy production coming usually from Asia’s direction when it comes to any kind of roleplaying game.

      We have already almost completely lost the FPS as PC gamers, due to ‘consolization’ of so many titles in the past few years, we really don’t want to give an inch more to the consoles, as they are, and always will be inferior platforms to play anything complex on… that is, until they adapt better or completely different control.”

      THAT is what people are responding to. THAT. That’s the PC versus stuff, earlier on in the thread.

    • Psychopomp says:

      Vin, they didn’t hire Squeenix. Squeenix owns Eidos.

  21. Serenegoose says:

    Um… if they’re only producing the CGI for the trailer, and they’re only doing the animation, what’s the problem? Their cutscenes are of an exceptional graphical quality, so that sounds like a good reason to get them to do the animation.

    Maybe if they were also doing the dialogue/direction/leading art style there’d be cause for complaint, as their art style is very distinct from DE and Thief, but there’s no reason to believe that’s the case, as nobody in their right mind would hire someone to make a cutscene that didn’t remotely capture what the game is trying to get at, as it would be pointless.

    That said, Blizzard do prettier, more dramatic, weighty feeling cutscenes, in my opinion.

    • Rich says:

      ‘That said, Blizzard do prettier, more dramatic, weighty feeling cutscenes, in my opinion.’

      Was thinkin’ the same thing.

  22. malkav11 says:

    Square produce some of the most incredible CGI out there. There’s no reason to automatically assume the visual style they’ve used on JRPGs like the Final Fantasy series is the style they would use on DX3 or Thief. Now, granted, I’d kill for them to bring back the incredibly stylish cutscenes from the first two Thief games, but I think those already went out the window in Deadly Shadows, no?

  23. TheApologist says:

    Yep – it is slightly bizarre that a company that makes very good CGI is being vilified as some kind of one trick pony, particularly given that we don’t know what role CGI will play in either game. Could just be opening or closing scenes?

  24. Crush says:

    Wow talk about PC gamer snobbery/elitism in full force here, so what if Square-Enix are doing some CGI work they are one of the best in the world at it and all the asshats are squealing that its going to be all cliche anime style, this why PC gamers get a bad reputation.

    As if Square-Enix a very large company who has been expanding into western markets would deliberately sabotage a huge release.

    What makes this all comical is Deus Ex had a hint of anime style to it in the first place.

  25. Dominic White says:

    How to send PC purists into a screaming, running-in-circles Chicken Little panic: Whisper ‘Japanese games’ in their ear.

  26. coupsan says:

    Sounds…good? I don’t know what you’re all bitching about.

  27. Glove says:

    Square Enix (and many, many other Japanese/Korean developers) are so bad at storytelling in trailers/FMVs – editing like it was done by an old, hoarding cat-lady (you know, the crazy type that keep stacked boxes of old newspapers in their depressingly decrepit house); absolutely no sense of direction or purpose; unexplained assumptions about characters; a perplexing propensity for jarring intermissions – lots of art and pretty flourishes poured uselessly into an incomprehensible mess.

    Here’s to hoping they only handle rendering, and don’t touch the direction.

  28. Andrew Dunn says:

    Really don’t think Square Enix are appropriate for Thief, at least. This isn’t because of ANIMU or anything, just that their forte is high-definition CGI rendered splendour and that’s not what Thief’s cutscenes were about in the slightest.

  29. Lothers says:

    They are from Japan so they should know what cyberpunk is about, I guess?

  30. wintermute says:

    The real issue here is that this thread has 130+ comments.

    Blizzard cutscenes are awesome.
    Blizzard artstyle is not what is expected of a cyberpunk game.

    Would anyone here complain if the cutscenes were given to Blizzard?

    Don’t make me go into the prejudices involved here…

  31. Graham Goring says:

    Bah! Rust Monkey’s work was integral to Thief’s identity! Of course they aren’t around any more but I hope like hell Squeenix do their damndest to capture that feel.

  32. hoff says:

    Eh…

    I wish I could say that was my biggest concern about EM and their Deus Ex 3 approach.

  33. Subject 706 says:

    Hold on a moment good sirs! Bit-tech reports that Deus Ex 3 is PC exclusive “due to its complexity”.

    IS THIS TRUE RPS HIVEMIND??!!!

    If so, interest suddenly reignited.

    • CMaster says:

      That would seem a pretty risky path to take considering the seeming expense of it – Eidos Montreal is a big team and its a multi-year project.

      On the other hand, Deus Ex has never sold well on the consoles.

  34. Raane says:

    Sad :(

    Loved the subtlety of the original vignettes from thief. I really really hope against all probability that they don’t overblow it and hollywoodise it.

  35. Cedge says:

    Cry some more, bitches. I think that sounds awesome. In-engine cinematics in Deus Ex sucked.

  36. Goddamn says:

    Squeenix = best CGI?

    Blizzard and Blur Studios want a word with you…

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