By Kieron Gillen on December 17th, 2009 at 1:35 pm.
The yearly PC Gamer Top 100 has gone live! To actually get any real explanation behind it, you’ll have to buy the new issue, but it’s available here in a just-the-facts-format. It breaks with tradition in a three key ways. Firstly, it was the first in living memory to be comprised not by going down the pub and arguing until everyone hates each other more than usual. Instead, it was done by cold vote-casting democracy. Or, at least, the closest simulacra to cold-vote-casting democracy the ever-mendacious Tom Francis could manage. Secondly, it involved votes from the PC Gamer writers of many nations (i.e. if there’s anything obviously mental, blame the yanks). Thirdly, and most audaciously, the fifthy-seventh greatest game of all time Outcast isn’t at fifty-seven. I’m shocked, shocked I say. Anyway, the readers vote is now open so do go in and RIGHT WRONGS. I admit, it’s the sort of thing which makes me wonder what a RPS readers’ top 100 may look like. Top 100s are odd ones, conceptually speaking. I wrote a little about it over on my workblog a few years ago, which I republish here…
*****
Yesterday I spent in the beer garden of the Boater locked in mortal (er) discussion with the usual suspects. We were trying to compile one of Gamer’s yearly traditions, the Top 100 Best Games Of All Time. It’s always problematic, with the same debates with different spins emerging to be quashed. Do you count a game’s mods when including it? (A: No, because it’s not the developers works. That’s like saying Windows XP is the best game ever as it allows playing everyone else’s games). Can you include mods themselves? (A: Yes, if they’re good enough). Can I include X: Beyond the Frontier? (A: No, don’t be fucking stupid).
A lot of the arguments revolve around how intellectually vague the remit of the exercise is. To this day, I’m not exactly sure what the Top 100 actually *means*.
You see, there’s lots of more coherent approaches to Top 100 games. In terms of magazines who only have done it as a very occasional article, the approach usually taken is “the Greatest games of all time”. In other words, you include not only how good the game is to play, but how innovative and important it is in terms of the development of the form. For example, when Edge did theirs it was very much this model. The problem with that is that if you do one more regularly than once every five years or so, the list calcifies. In terms of overall importance and greatness, that list doesn’t change significantly in a twelve month period. And if it does, it really does undermine the article.
The alternative is “our favourite games” model, which simply selects the Top 100 games which the writers like *right now*. Historical import doesn’t really matter, just your current love. If you were going to play something now, what would it be? This tends towards the gloriously pop mafly nature of games, with lots of turn around as the latest Slightly-better-than-last genre game appears. And that’s not even considering the shifting population of the magazine writers. This is the model Amiga Power seemed to use. Its problem is that if it’s being completely honest, it’s also going to be cheerfully dismissive of a minority of writers (and readers) tastes. You also end up with quirks like Gravity Power at number 2, just because all the writers love it, when in the world outside the magazine’s bounds most gamers couldn’t even name it.
There’s a third method which is a logical extension of the second one. Rather than a Top 100 which is argued for by the staff as a whole, the Top 100 is produced by a opinionated single writer. Only magazine I know who ever did this was Your Sinclair, where Stuart Campbell wrote his gleefully personal take on the history of the Speccy. That it was one man’s work meant that it tended not to be confused with the editorial opinion of the magazine as a whole (despite being labelled the offical YS Top 100) and stressed that it was the start of a dialogue. That is, if Stuart could have his own, then so can everyone else. It’s second strength is that it removes the chance of bland list created by simple compromise. Problem with this is that it too can’t be repeated to often, meaning that Gamer couldn’t use it. Equally, the PC is such a wide and long-existing form, the number of writers who have been around long enough and have expansive enough tastes to perform the role are strictly limited. Of the current Brit game press, only Richard Cobbet comes to mind as someone who mixes both absolutely encyclopedic knowledge with the voliciferous beliefs required to make an entertaining list.
Gamer is quieter, less explicitly controversial and self-indulgent, magazine than Amiga Power, so while the list features a fairly hefty subjective component, it also tends to make tokenistic gestures to genres not many writers like but we consider important. While this is done for the best reasons, it does tend to make Gamer’s lists fall between the two poles. Its number one position will never be held by Doom (as it would if we did a pure List #1 style) or the modern equivalent of GravityPower (if we did it as a pure List #2 style). Afterwards, people seemed more pleased with this list than last one. A better reflection of the PC, is the sort of phrase that people stated.
Which reveals the nature of the PC Gamer Top 100. It’s a mirror of what the magazine thinks the PC is this year, where we are and what we’re going. The list is, essentially, this is what everyone’s playing and this is what everyone’s thinking about. Last year, KOTOR appeared at #3. While a great game, I think it more reflected the tone of last year, where multiformated console games were increasingly part of our idea-space. Genres which were PC only were being bastardised to go on a joypad too, and it was important we recognise while this is happening, it’s better that it happens *well*. This year’s list seems to do a similar reflection of where we are and what we want, but in the considerably altered world of the last twelve months.
Or that’s the justification I’m sticking to for now.
What the Top 100 really does is actually sell a dream. If you really love games, the idea that people can actually sit around for a day and argue intensively about their merits is a seductive fantasy. What most amazes new writers who turn up for their first time is that this idea isn’t just an image sold through the text. It actually happens. The dream’s real. And that, more than anything, is the Top 100’s greatest triumph. That it happens.
*****
Well, it didn’t happen this year, but we totally had a very angry google-doc full of people being mean to one another.
17/12/2009 at 13:42 Kast says:
I’m just glad to see Anchorhead still in the list :) I first heard about it in I think last year’s top 100 and thoroughly enjoyed it. Not something many people will have heard about so its inclusion might lead other people to give it a short.
17/12/2009 at 13:45 Pags says:
MASSIVE SPOILERS AHEAD I was just about to comment asking if Deus Ex was number 2 again. After all the years it’s spent at the number 2 spot and seen other games come and go from the number 1 position, it seems fair that it’s finally receiving it’s due.
17/12/2009 at 14:41 Gap Gen says:
Deus Ex is not allowed to be at #1. IT IS NOT ALLOWED. PC GAMER HAVE BROKEN THE LAW. THEY SHALL BE IMPRISONED.
17/12/2009 at 17:06 tikey says:
Deus Ex is nº1. I can’t argue with this list.
17/12/2009 at 13:45 Baboonanza says:
Damn you Gillen, I just posted in the thread not linked to this post. To repeat:
.
I think Deus Ex as #1 is a more interesting choice than it appears at first glance. It’s very difficult to compare older games with recent ones, and 2D games age better than those in early 3D. I honestly don’t think I could play it again, and looking back it’s undeniably primitive in many ways besides the graphics.
.
I’d be reluctant to put it in my top ten, though it was definitely my #1 when released. If you played them back-to-back I think there are easily 10 games released since then that are ‘better’ even if there is no real successor, rose-tinted glasses aside.
.
Oblivion in the top ten is a travesty, though Fallout 3 deserves it’s place IMO.
17/12/2009 at 14:02 CMaster says:
@Baboonanza
People go back and play it every day. I’ve done so countless times in the years since its release.
It holds up. Yes, the graphics are less than exceptional. But they are clear enough to convey what is needed.
Yes the voice acting is in parts terrible. “A bomb” and all that.
Yes, the interface is a bit fiddly – having to select the right tool for a job feels awkward compared to the more context sensitive system used even it its own sequel, never mind any other games.
However, it is a game that is incredibly verb-rich, has a well told, engaging if somewhat silly story, a spread of interesting characters and believes in player choice and interactivity more than almost any other game out there.
I think it will start to look old and unplayable one day. That day is when we have left behind the stupid refridgerator box model. Then the cries of “but you can beat it in so many ways” will be met with “but I can’t climb the damn stupid wall even!”. Mirrors Edge and Brink are giving me hope that we will soon leave this model behind, but we’ve had false dawns in this sense before.
Until then, Deus Ex represents a high point in gaming for me and plenty others. It isn’t flawless and it has aged a little, but there’s nothing about it that makes it inaccessible to current players.
17/12/2009 at 14:05 Jason Moyer says:
I replayed Deus Ex a few months ago, and I thought it held up really well. Maybe not my #1 of all time (I’d have to lean towards System Shock 2) but still a top 5, easily.
I’d also put Fallout 3 ahead of Oblivion, and probably in my top 5 as well, although that would be for a full install with all DLC except Anchorage/Zeta.
17/12/2009 at 13:47 RagingLion says:
Wow Arma 2 at 21 – that’s probably what surprised me the most. Otherwise everything is up for argument but seems about right. Of course, I say that having played only a tiny fraction of those games – I’m going off of what others say.
17/12/2009 at 14:21 Mark O'Brien says:
@RagingLion
Agreed. Arma2 was extremely disappointing (I assume you’re not arguing for it to be higher)
I think it’s probably a very personal thing, in that every person will have had a completely different experience with it.
For my friend and I, playing the campaign co-op was a bug-ridden, frustrating mess. After overcoming innumerable technical problems and bugs, we finally ended up stuck, having spent hours and hours on what turned out to be an uncompletable mission and abandoned the game altogether.
If Jim Rossignol had experienced the difficulties we did he probably wouldn’t always be singing its praises.
We may go back to it once it’s patched up a bit more and there are some good user-made missions.
17/12/2009 at 13:57 Jesus says:
Son, even I know Deux Ex is the best game of all time. Of all time.
17/12/2009 at 15:01 Rinox says:
“Yo Jesus, I’m really happy for you, and imma let you finish, but BG2 was the best game of all time. OF ALL TIME!”
Sorry, couldn’t resist the Kanye meme
17/12/2009 at 13:59 phil says:
So first person shooters are the equivalent of issue movies at the Oscars? A horribly misguided, but incredbily playable, adaption of American Beauty is my bet for the first winner of both.
17/12/2009 at 14:03 Clovis says:
WTF!?! How could X be rated higher than Y! I’m outraged!!!!! Z is not even on the list!!1!!!
(Can’t see the list from work. Will fill in blanks when I get home.)
17/12/2009 at 14:05 Mark O'Brien says:
I’m very surprised to see Portal as low as 17.
For me, at least, it’s number 1. It’s a game that is perfect in its quality and brevity. I think perhaps only this brevity is what counted against it? What do other RPSers think?
Personally, I’m beginning to really see the advantages of games that are short and sweet. Far too many force you to engage in repetetive gameplay just to fill up some minimum quota of hours.
I really appreciated that when Portal had done all it set out to do, it ended. And it ended beautifully!
17/12/2009 at 15:49 Bhazor says:
The problem with Portal for me was that it was a great adventure with perfect pitch black humour but that is not what I wanted from watching the trailers. Instead of escalating in difficulty it held your hand the whole way through so that by the end I was still waiting for the proper game to start. As far as puzzle games go WoG has it beat in almost all regards in terms of escalation, variety and breadth of possible solutions. As an adventure/platformer the PoP games and later Tomb Raiders are still better just because Portal inherits the same jumping mechanics as HL2. Portal with the same ledge grabbing, skid stops and ability to see your own feet would have been a big step up and if had come with 30 new challenge rooms, rather than the 5 lazy reruns, then I agree it could be considered for number 1.
Also that bit where you jump on moving platform in a twisty corridor can fuck off.
17/12/2009 at 16:18 Mark O'Brien says:
@Bhazor
I’m glad you mentioned World of Goo. I really loved that too, and you could be right that it had better puzzles and difficulty curve. Those two are probably my two favourite games overall.
I think what made Portal so special for me was the writing, and the ending, and the fact that you were never repeating yourself.
Not every single level in World of Goo was really that novel or confusing, but I felt the difficulty curve in Portal was brilliant. It felt like every new level had something new for you to try or to figure out.
I know what you mean about the occasionally dodgy platforming though, and I agree with you that perhaps the gameplay could have been better overall.
17/12/2009 at 14:06 AndrewC says:
Sod the list, give us the googledoc. As you wrote, it’s the arguing that is fun. Also I would never be able to resist filling the list with those games that would wind up the angrymen. Mad props for Oblivion in the top ten.
17/12/2009 at 14:11 Jonas says:
This year’s list is a clear improvement over all the previous years when Deus Ex has been number 2. I approve. I strongly approve.
17/12/2009 at 16:09 jsutcliffe says:
If that is true, I would love to know what has changed that makes Deus Ex a better game. ;)
17/12/2009 at 16:38 invisiblejesus says:
@jsutcliffe
What changed is the people writing the list stopped being wrong. Deus Ex at #1, and TF2 the highest ranking multiplayer FPS (I’m assuming HL2 Deathmatch wasn’t a factor). Justice tastes like the tears of demomen. Sweet like candy. :D
17/12/2009 at 14:15 RuySan says:
Is the real article anywhere as good as Amiga Power top 100? I never bought PC Gamer
List seemed good: Ultima Underworld, Gothic 2, Rainbow Islands, Another World,….only to be wasted by Oblivion at 6
17/12/2009 at 14:25 Baboonanza says:
I’d have the Amiga Power top 100 at #1 place in my ‘Top 100 Top 100 Games Features’
17/12/2009 at 14:34 Kieron Gillen says:
Baboonanza: Have you actually written that? I always wanted to do one.
KG
17/12/2009 at 15:05 Baboonanza says:
Hell, no. Tell you what though, you print/cut out all the relevant features and I’ll meet you at the pub to argue about it. I’ll argue about anything when I’m drinking!
17/12/2009 at 17:36 Tom Camfield says:
@ RuySan
I’ve had a rant about Underworld later in the thread, but really, if anyone knows of some way to get this to work that doesn’t make it play like horse, please tell me. I’m a big RPG fan, but having tracked both Ultima Underworld II and Ultima 7 down I’ve found both almost totally unplayable. Sure they load, but the controls, the mechanics, it’s just impossible to be bothered. I feel really annoyed when these games are lauded and I can’t even begin them because they feel so broken. I feel someone must have the key to unlocking their potential but is withholding it from me. Please withhold no more!
17/12/2009 at 14:17 Knark says:
Even as a avid ArmA 2 fan I must say it does not deserve to be at position 21. It really doesn’t, it should be behind Baldur’s Gate 2 at the very least. I know it’s a subjective thing, but still.
17/12/2009 at 14:17 Smee says:
Carmageddon at 64? I mean, it’s one of my favourite games, but…really?
17/12/2009 at 14:20 bleeters says:
Predictable top five is predictable.
17/12/2009 at 14:24 Derf says:
The entire list is pretty much an abomination.
17/12/2009 at 14:29 Martin Coxall says:
I think at least 70 of our top 100 places will be occupied by Planescape: Torment, with the rest being shared out equally between Valve games, something with Skaven in it, and the adventure games John slips in when nobody’s looking.
17/12/2009 at 14:33 Kieron Gillen says:
Martin: Believe it or not, I was the only RPS member who remembered to vote for Planescape. Bad Alec and John.
(They had to do theirs in a rush and it slipped their minds. So they did kick themselves. Not as much as I would have kicked them, admittedly)
KG
17/12/2009 at 14:29 SharkSkinMan says:
The ages of the games in the top 10 are interesting – average age 7 years or so, only one from this year, and none from last year. So does that mean that games are slowly growing up, and we don’t need to look at just the latest releases? Or does it mean that PC gaming is going downhill, and we can only look back to better days?
17/12/2009 at 14:31 StompJoe says:
RPS staff Top 100 please
17/12/2009 at 14:35 AndrewC says:
1: John
2: Alec
3: Jim
4: Sims bloke
5: Quinns
6: Bargain Guy
7-100 Kieron.
17/12/2009 at 15:59 Man Raised By Puffins says:
1-∞: Horace the Endless Bear
17/12/2009 at 23:17 Nobody Important says:
RPS writer top 100:
1. The Narcissus Entity
17/12/2009 at 14:34 ChaK_ says:
Flame me if you want, but I didn’t like deus ex that much.
I’m playing since quite some times now, 10/12 years maybe, but a lot of my favorite games way more actual than those.
Perhaps nostalgy play too much into tops 100.
But don’t get me wrong, I still think games like BG or planescape have a well deserved place in there
17/12/2009 at 14:52 Larington says:
Thing is, there seem to be rather a lot of people for whom Deus Ex is their most replayed game, as it is in my case, followed by Anachronox & System Shock 2… Then, I think Startopia, maybe?
Frankly, Deus Ex handled the illusion of choice in games far better than anything else I can think of thus far and thats why it deserves the number one spot.
Of course, its not going to be a game that everyone can appreciate, but I guess thats just the way the cookie crumbles.
17/12/2009 at 17:05 [dandan] says:
@ Larrington
Startopia is absolutley amazing. A brilliant and tragically overlooked game. The first two Discworld point and clickers are rather brilliant too, and have great casts.
17/12/2009 at 14:36 Magrippinho says:
I especially love it when the list falls victim to executive meddling, and the commentating editors are all like “I’m appalled this made it to the Top X” (see: Eurogamer).
This list is a fun read, I think it’s interesting that no recently released game made the top-20 (Although WoW & Team Fortress 2 could be argued to be exceptions, with their constant radical updates).
17/12/2009 at 14:44 Gap Gen says:
Interesting that it’s been said that Infinity Ward and Valve are the kings of the linear shooter, but HL2 is second from the top and CoD4 is second from the bottom.
17/12/2009 at 14:45 DMJ says:
Well, that was interesting. Most of those entries gave me warm fuzzy feelings.
World of Goo wuz robbed, though.
17/12/2009 at 16:20 Mark O'Brien says:
I would have liked to see WoG placed higher too, but it was always an outsider. It’s an indie game that wasn’t excessively marketed or played by huge numbers of people, which would probably count against it being up in a “mainstream” top 10 as it was under the radar for a lot of gamers.
It is certainly extremely good, however.
17/12/2009 at 14:45 Tei says:
Quality != Popularity = Quantity
Popularity = Quantity
Quantity != Quality
I am still to see ONE of these “Top $something” that is informative. Wen I open one, I already know by hand everything I will read, the only “new information” is the order, that often is crazy and outlandish.
17/12/2009 at 14:53 GibletHead2000 says:
Well, XBTF is still in *my* top 100, even if that is Being Fucking Stupid. ;-)
17/12/2009 at 14:56 Kieron Gillen says:
GibletHead2000: Don’t worry. You’re not alone. I suspect X would have been in there if Craig wasn’t allowed to vote for Elite 2: Frontier. Which is terrible too.
KG
17/12/2009 at 14:55 yutt says:
Fallout 3 in the top 10? Eww. Morrowind was more revolutionary, appreciated, and respected by far.
I won’t debate the quality of most of the top 10, but it could have used more variety. The majority of the titles are Bethesda/Black Isle or Valve. No RTSes in the top 20? Silly.
Clearly the list was made by a bunch of FPS/RPG fans. Really need to find a wider range of opinions next time around.
17/12/2009 at 15:01 yutt says:
Rome: Total War is on the top 10, you fool.
17/12/2009 at 18:44 Forscythe says:
replying to yutt:
Rome:TW don’t cut it. The list is seriously tilted against the most PCest of genres, RTS.
Seriously, a top 100 PC game list that doesn’t have Total Annihilation?
This has got to be rigged. You expect me to believe that actual PC gamers, voting freely, chose Street Fighter IV and Star Trek TNG: A Final Unity, but not Age of Empires/Mythology (!), Company of Heroes(!!), Warcraft 2, Rise of Nations, Sins of a Solar Empire, World in Conflict, or Homeworld?
On the other hand: oh yes, Deus Ex is still the one. Also glad to see the reputation of STALKER:SoC is still growing.
18/12/2009 at 11:27 TeeJay says:
@ Forscythe
Company of Heroes was in the list (#34). Also in last year’s public/reader’s vote (where people can vote for as many RTS as they want) five of your others were ranked: Warcraft 3 #24, Company of Heroes #40, Age of Empires 2 #41, Total Annihilation #64, Homeworld #95.
Only Rise of Nations, Sins of a Solar Empire & World in Conflict were not placed in last year’s public vote.
17/12/2009 at 14:56 Azazel says:
Yeah, they’re good for young wide-eyed slips of chaps and chapettes to flick through and wonder at. Also good for whenever a seasoned gamer becomes bored and feels the need for the warm and fuzzy; or they have a new beard which they long to stroke, nodding sagely.
I actually like the idea of the personalised list best. It’s nice to read these from people you respect or whose opinions you are interested in. Not essential though – whenever a readers top 100 comes around, I find it quite enjoyable reading the personal Top 10′s that people post along with their enthusiastic reasonings.
17/12/2009 at 15:00 Misnomer says:
I think the FPS genre is pretty messed up on there as a whole. Yes I know that it gets far more glory than it deserves, but as the Kieron said…this is a clearly a manifestation of what the voters wish and not reality.
BF2 is on the list. BF 1943 is not. While many can argue that BF2 is better, the mods for it are weaker and it took a very long time to become a good stable game. 1943 was pioneering, well executed and all those things that got HL1 up in the stats (except perhaps the story).
Crysis being well above COD4. I am as sick of COD as the next guy but are you seriously telling me a game with a crap multiplayer and 2 nearly unplayable SP levels is somehow that much better than COD4? I’m sorry, but any FPS fan who plays the COD4 singleplayer will probably enjoy it. Multiplayer I am not going to make blanket comments about, but while it has had many many failings I have personally grown to hate, it is definitely better than Crysis MP.
Also in the COD department….only COD4? COD2′s SP? CoD 1 for being revolutionary? CoD:UO for one of the best MP experiences other than 1943 on the market at the time? Call of Duty hate is very trendy right now, but voters looking at gaming history should keep in mind the times when the Call of Duty series was one of the pinnacles of the PC gaming experience.
That being said I think L4D is a little overrated. It was revolutionary in many ways, but not an outright good game. Probably fits where it is for now…but Valve got a cakewalk in this list and L4D is one of the low points of all things Valve even according to the Hammer Legion.
Oh and counterstrike is not an adventure game.
As others have said, ArmA 2 being 21 is just plain laughable. It is obvious they had a fair number of voters in the poll (quite likely the reason for COD being shamed). For it to make the list when BF1943 does not and for it to be at 21 is just shameful to the gamers who voted in this poll.
And would someone from the racing world please show up to comment? I saw mention of Carmaggedon being overrated, but seriously this list looks ridiculous for the sports and racing genres. Where is GTR2? Where is Trackmania?
Lastly. I think Roller Coaster Tycoon got screwed once again. Love it or hate it, shelves still show signs of the tycoon mania it created.
17/12/2009 at 15:29 ChaK_ says:
It’s 1942 actually. 43 is their latest money-ripping BF machine
17/12/2009 at 15:34 Backov says:
I assume you mean BF1942, not BF1943?
17/12/2009 at 15:38 Phinor says:
The lack of racing games is very annoying but understandable. Serious racers are always in the minority and this list includes exactly 0 of the best racing games ever made. That is, it doesn’t have iRacing (current king of track world), it doesn’t have Richard Burns Rally (without a doubt the best rally game ever made.. the fact that it is without a doubt the best rally game ever made should easily put it into the top100 but it just doesn’t seem to work like that), Grand Prix 2 (for years, the best F1 game) or any of the other best-during-their-prime (sim) racing games. But that’s fine. This list is just another top100 popularity contest no matter how you look at it. Arcade racing games did rather well because arcade is more popular.
Outside of racing games, I was extremely surprised to see Angband variant on the list. Ok, it was ZangbandTK which I have never played, but I’m a huge fan of both Angband and Zangband. Makes me wonder how that got into the list when.. cough.. iRacing didn’t. But it is what it is. Niche genres just can’t survive in these queries.
17/12/2009 at 22:17 Misnomer says:
Try this again. Yes I meant 1942.
18/12/2009 at 00:52 Adam Whitehead says:
COD4′s single-player game is weak, predictable and short. The AI is feeble and the infinitely respawning enemies something I thought we’d left behind in the 1990s. COD4′s SP is indeed let down by comparison to COD and COD2. The multiplayer is okay, but overall it is simply not that great a game.
CRYSIS has its (many) problems, but the single-player is decent and enjoyable, even if the mp sucks. But to be honest, FAR CRY has a far better SP game than either.
18/12/2009 at 12:03 TeeJay says:
@ Phinor
It isn’t massively surprising that NASCAR games don’t appear in a UK list, but you are right about this year’s list being light on driving games, compared with previous years:
2009
Burnout Paradise #75
2008
Trackmania United #48
Race Driver GRID #77
(Reader’s Vote: Race Driver GRID #97)
2007
Test Drive Unlimited #71
Richard Burns Rally #73
Colin McRae #77
Trackmania United #91
Outrun 2006 #93
2006
Richard Burns Rally #35
GT Legends #49
Trackmania Sunrise #75
TOCA Race Driver 3 #79
To me this supports the case for having future ‘grand lists’ broken up into genres, otherwise some genres get completely crowded out or end up with just a token appearance.
17/12/2009 at 15:03 Trubka says:
As long as Deus Ex is #1 everything else is irrelevant.
17/12/2009 at 15:06 Rinox says:
Dragon Age deserved more than a 47th place. Imho.
17/12/2009 at 15:07 Kieron Gillen says:
Rinox: Worth remembering this was done a couple of months back (i..e Before anyone other than 2 members of the mag would have played DA).
KG
17/12/2009 at 15:49 Jeremy says:
It’s weird to me though, because that was my initial reaction as well… but I don’t feel like Dragon Age is going to be one of those games that really sticks with me for The Ages. It does a lot of things right, but when I was halfway through my second play, the world seemed… colder, more distant. In comparison, when I played Baldur’s Gate 1 and 2 for the first times (and the 20th time), I knew that it would be a game by which all others were referenced (genre restrictions apply), and a game that I would talk about for years to come. World of Goo, Spelunky, Fallout 3, Diablo, Homeworld, Sins… these are all games that have stuck with me, and have impacted me for various reasons.
I loved Dragon Age, but I’m not certain I’ll be talking about it in 5 years.
17/12/2009 at 16:00 jsutcliffe says:
re: Dragon Age’s #47 place
Maybe I’m doing it wrong, but I’m feeling like Dragon Age is distinctly overrated. I’ve been in the dwarf areas for about ten hours (half my play time), and am barely closer to achieving what I entered the dwarf area for in the first place (convincing them to help fight the Blight). Its pace is truly glacial, and I’m more than tired of the combat banter.
I’m still enjoying it, though — I just think that it could have used some editing. To channel Quinns, I don’t think it’s tight.
17/12/2009 at 15:07 Larington says:
Other random notes/comments:
1. I still think Baldurs Gate 1 is a bit better than its sequel, because I felt like I really got to explore the game world bit by bit, whereas in the sequel its mostly the main city and then a few scatter locations across the rest of Ahmn or whatever the nation is called.
2. Nice to see Planetside up there, despite the faults it picked up over subsequent years of development.
3. Slightly bewildered by the positioning of Fallout 3/Oblivion – The combat in Obvlivion was pretty weak in a, I’m just gonna run backwards firing off fireballs sort of way, unless we’re talking about a modded Oblivion.
4. Which leads to another question, as to how much modability plays into this top 100.
5. Amused to see that Modern Warfare 2 isn’t on this list at all, but whilst I can see a MechCommander title wheres MechWarrior? ‘twould appear that we need a definitive MechWarrior title to go in this list.
6. Valve appears to be the winner of the top 10 list here.
17/12/2009 at 15:10 Arathain says:
I’ve always loved the PCG Top 100, for lots of reasons. I think they’re a great perspective on the current state of the form, with an eye to looking backward, rather than the forward looking nature of most ‘state of play’ articles.
I always love to read the words of talented, passionate folk talking about the games they love.
I enjoy the ‘Game X was robbed! Game Y sucks!’ pointless arguments, as they are also passionate folk talking about games they love.
I also get a geeky thrill; oo, I played that! It was great! Lastly, it’s a pretty good buyers’ guide, as I get a list of great games I haven’t played that may well be pretty cheap.
17/12/2009 at 15:23 Pod says:
I entered this last year. The buggers didn’t publish the results online, so I have no idea if everyone else believes that Cannon Fodder is indeed the fourth best game of all time. (or whatever game I put.)
17/12/2009 at 16:46 TeeJay says:
@ Pod
Here are the results of last year’s Reader’s Top 100: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/12/15/best-2008-ever-july/comment-page-1/#comment-371688
17/12/2009 at 15:23 Sam Bigos says:
I never played Deus Ex when it first came out, is there any reason I should play it now?
17/12/2009 at 15:29 Larington says:
It’s the only game I know of where you can get told off for walking into the ladies toilets. ;-)
Sadly the graphics haven’t dated too well, but it none-the-less makes a good case for some of the unexplored potential in computer games purely from a standpoint of – We set the challenge and give you a variety of ways in which to solve it.
17/12/2009 at 15:28 Lacero says:
@Sam Bigos
You should play Deus Ex as if your life depended on it.
17/12/2009 at 15:29 Zyrxil says:
Can’t feel too angry about Oblivion and Fallout 3 (NOT an RPG. A sandbox action game whose ‘witty’ dialogue writers should be shot) up there, as they had 3 of my 5 in the top 10- Fallout, Thief 2, and Planescape.
It was hard to decide between Fallout 1 and 2 and Thief 1 and 2 though. The sequels weren’t so massively improved in each case that you would clearly give it to them and not select the Original for being original and not just a slight evolution. I guess they had the same idea I had then – Fallout 1 for being more focused, Thief 2 for not having any goddamn zombies.
17/12/2009 at 15:55 jsutcliffe says:
re: Thief 2
I’m pretty sure there are still zombies if you look hard enough. Hate those bastards.
17/12/2009 at 15:30 Jeremy says:
I know a lot of people love Peggle, and I know it’s one of the major casual titles, but it’s really hard for me to believe that games of that nature deserve a solid spot in the top 50. At the same time… World of Goo absolutely deserves it’s spot… and of course its all subjective. I also seriously love Spelunky, so what it really boils down to is, I guess I’m not a huge fan of Peggle :)
17/12/2009 at 15:37 Jad says:
Interesting that Fallout 3 is a “First Person Shooter” and Deus Ex is a “Role Playing Game”. I think both butt up hard against the limitations of labels, but if forced to chose one genre I would have swapped them on that.
Fallout 3 was shit as a FPS, but still good because that’s not what it was trying to do. Deus Ex was okay as a pure FPS, but the genre label could go either way. Maybe they chose RPG so the top four wouldn’t all be FPSs.
17/12/2009 at 15:41 Berzee says:
to long dident reda
17/12/2009 at 15:41 alseT says:
Peggle higher than diablo 2. What.
17/12/2009 at 15:55 alseT says:
Bonus: no Alpha Centauri in the list at all
17/12/2009 at 15:42 Brulleks says:
88th?! 88th?!
88th?!?!
I go cry now.
You made Cutter Slade cry too.
17/12/2009 at 15:48 leeder_krenon says:
i’m only interested in the british perspective on things like this, shame it’s tained by those blasted foreigners.
17/12/2009 at 15:52 jsutcliffe says:
I don’t understand why Morrowind isn’t ranked higher than Oblivion. However, I’m just pleased that Frontier is in the list, and relatively high too.
17/12/2009 at 16:28 RuySan says:
I just don’t understand how Oblivion is there at all, and in the top places. It’s absolute rubbish and unplayable without mods.
17/12/2009 at 15:56 Wulf says:
I can think of many games to hold the #1 spot, but I can’t really see that Deus Ex was one of them. Sure, it refined a lot of things, it was a technical marvel at the time, it had a decent (if not spectacular in any way) storyline, and, and… ?
I’ve recently played it again, I picked it up on Steam, and I found it completely underwhelming, just reaffirming how I felt about it. The inventory system, the upgrades system, all the elements I encountered had been done better elsewhere, before or hence. I even found System Shock II to be a more compelling experience, overall. I suppose it’s just because of nostalgia and nothing else.
I just wonder when PC gaming as a whole is stop going to stop buzzing around the foetid, aged, rotting mass of nostalgia like flies. For me, Deus Ex hasn’t stood the test of time at all, and I feel that’s important for a #1: How well has it stood the test of time? Beyond Good and Evil has stood that test better, Uru has, even Anachronox, a game that’s just as old, has. In fact, I recently played Anachronox again and found that its humour and character-based storytelling were just as compelling as when I originally played the game.
And this is why I can never take Top X of EVAR lists seriously, because nostalgia’s going to get in the way, and no one’s going to want to try their personal #1 again to see if it really has stood the test of time as much in reality as it has in their heads.
In my Top 100 or whatnot, Deus Ex lingers at around the 30′s, just as recognition for a game that refined a lot of concepts really nicely into a solid game, if nothing else.
17/12/2009 at 16:05 CMaster says:
@Wulf it suprises you can sit there and say that, while completely failing to discuss the main reason Deus Ex was so remarkable that has been brought up in this thread several times already. The multidude of different ways you can solve pretty much every problem. You haven’t responded to the many people saying that they have recentley replayed Deus Ex and found that for them it really does hold up. A friend of mine played it for the first time this year and found it a very, very impressive and good game (he wasn’t so much a fan of DX:IW though).
This isn’t to say that it doesn’t deserve a 30s or worse position in terms of its meaning for you. It just seems odd to argue that it flat out can’t be no.1 for anybody while ignoring all the key points made for it acheiving that position.
17/12/2009 at 17:22 Vandelay says:
@Wulf
Agree completely. I came to Deus Ex only about 3 years after its release and was left somewhat underwhelmed. That has only increased with time and each attempt to replay. It is far from a bad game, it is an excellent game, but it is most definitely not the number one game of all time. The problems it has are to ingrained to get past. The AI, the UI, the weapons, the animations, the art style, the voice acting; all things that may not be important on their own, but altogether they show a game that has too main problems to deserve the accolades it constantly receives.
As CMaster says, the multitude of choice and the level design that makes these alternate paths seem natural (unlike the sequel, which just dumped vents right next to a hackable door,) are what lift the game above the mediocrity it would otherwise be. All games designers should be thinking of Deus Ex whenever the are creating a new game and it is a pity that very few in the industry seem to be able to acknowledge this fact. But it shouldn’t be called the greatest game of all time.
17/12/2009 at 15:57 MarkN says:
Hurray for Space Giraffe getting a well-earned place. Boo for no mention of Dwarf Fortress.
17/12/2009 at 18:28 Jeremy says:
It’s hard to imagine an in-progress game with the worst controls of all time getting a spot on this list.
17/12/2009 at 15:58 Pidesco says:
Let’s go apeshit, then :D
Jagged Alliance 2 at 95???
Oblivion is a not good
RPG,gamething, never mind better than freaking Fallout or System Shock or Thief 2 or getting kicked in the ‘nads.Jagged Alliance 2 at 95???
“It’s the best story in gaming.” Get out.
No One Lives Forever is unequivocally better than both Half Lifes, but gets in at 67th. What’s up with that?
Jagged Alliance 2 at 95??? Are you people insane?
Yeah, opinions.
17/12/2009 at 16:34 Urthman says:
“We don’t want to make a bigger deal of this than it deserves, but No One Lives Forever is a Lithtech powered game by Monolith that – in a whole bunch of non-trivial ways – is better than Half Life.” – Old Man Murray (creators of Half Life 2 and Portal, more or less)
17/12/2009 at 17:23 Clovis says:
Including the nostalgia factore, I think JA2 may be my favorite game EVAR. I jokingingly wrote above about X being abvove Y, but yeah, that’s pretty crazy. I guess most people just think of X-Com (that’s on there higher, right?) for this type of game. But I played JA2 first, and couldn’t statnd X-Com when I tried to play it. Is anyone aware of any recent game that is better than JA2 in that genre?
17/12/2009 at 17:26 Pidesco says:
Nope, no X-Com.
18/12/2009 at 13:50 TeeJay says:
X-COM is ranked #11 under “UFO: Enemy Unknown”
UFO: Enemy Unknown (UK )
X-COM: UFO Defense (North American markets)
X-COM: Enemy Unknown (non-UK european markets & australia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO:_Enemy_Unknown
17/12/2009 at 16:03 Dysplastic says:
I’m sad Vampire: The Masquerade didn’t make it anywhere. Top 50 game for me. Sure it was unplayable at the time, but with all the fan-patches currently availabe, I had ridiculous amounts of fun with it this year. Which raises a good question – when considering a buggy/broken game, do you have to consider it in its initial state or its current, much improved state?
17/12/2009 at 16:12 Butler` says:
seems such a surprisingly two dimensional list :\
17/12/2009 at 16:16 Nick says:
The readers top 100 is pointless since it became open to non readers so easily, its just whichever MMO/AAA title has the most rabid fanbase. It used to be an interesting way to see how the opinions of the actual readership differed from the PCG official one (which, now it is no longer just the PCGUK one, is also pointless to me).
Well, apart from that little uplink vote fixing thing, which was pretty neat at the time.
17/12/2009 at 17:17 TeeJay says:
After you have mentally filtered out the 3 MMOs (EVE/WoW/LOTR) and 4 mutliplayers (CoD4/TF2/Starcraft/Diablo2) at or near the top of the list, then the top games = HL2, portal, HL, DX, Oblivion, Bioshock, BG2.
Fallout 1 and Planescape beat Mass Effect. Fallout 2 beat GTA:SA. The list is packed with good solid classic games and no real ‘oddball’ choices. Dwarf Fortress managed to get into the top 100.
The 30,000 readership and other “hardcore” PC gamers will be the most likely to vote and having MMO communities getting interested is only really going to impact on the specific games involved. There might be a slight uplift in all RPGs due to MMORPG-ers and AAA FPS games due to CoD4 fans, but looking at the results this isn’t what jumps out at me.
See last year’s results here:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/12/15/best-2008-ever-july/comment-page-1/#comment-371688
17/12/2009 at 18:09 Nick says:
TeeJay: It doesn’t jump out at you that the top 5 is full of games that asked their worldwide communities to vote?
18/12/2009 at 13:27 TeeJay says:
Yes. The ‘public top 100′ had 10 or so MMORPGs (Eve, LOTRO, WoW, Guild Wars, Ultima, Everquest 1 & 2, Conan, DAoC, Star Wars Galaxies, City of Heroes) and at least 8 or 9 popular online multiplayers (CoD4, TF2, Starcraft, Diablo 2, CS:S, BF2, Red Orchestra, BF1942).
Of these 19 games only these 5 haven’t appeared in the Official/editorial PCG Top 100 lists (06-09):
Conan, DAoC, Everquest, Red Orchestra, Ultima Online,
But 9 other games have also never appeared in (06-09) either:
AoE II, The Witcher, Worms, FIFA, Garry’s Mod, Dwarf Fortress, Final Fantasy VII and VIII, HoM&Magic 3.
A *far* bigger issue wich prevents the Editors 100 being compared with the public vote is that the public vote was not ‘filtered’ by series, like the official one was, namely:
The public vote people voted for:
…2 fallouts, 2 everquests, 2 baldur’s gates, 3 battlefields, 3 C&Cs, 3 call of dutys, 3 civs, 2 counter-strikes, 2 diablos, 2 dooms, 2 elder scrolls, 2 final fantasies, 3 GTAs, 2 guild wars, 4 half-lifes, 2 max paynes, 2 quakes, 2 KOTORs, 2 total wars, 2 UTs and 2 Dawn of Wars (the only games PCG actually bothered to bundle together into a “series” were the football manager ones)…
…which by my calculation means that about 28 or so other games were kept out of the top 100. This is IMO the single biggest drawback in comparing the official and public top 100, and could have been avoided with more effort put into the polling and to the data analysis afterwards (they didn’t even bother to publish the results online).
Apart from 10 or so MMORPGs appearing in the top 100 (which is maybe double what you’d expect?) the and their being ranked higher than they would normally, it’s worth asking if the influx of all these MMORPGers also influenced the results for loads of single player games – for example I’d guess that extra CoD4 players voting meant that Halo and Gears of war also placed higher and that the extra fantasy MMORPGers are why Final Fantasy VII and VIII also made the list.
However it’s worth noting that ’06-’09 PCG haver always included Ultima Underworld II and Ultima VII in their top 100 but have have never listed Ultima Online. Contrast this with the ’08 public poll which only ranks Ultima Online and doesn’t list UUII or UVII. Either Ultima MMORPGers *didn’t* simply spam all the Ultima games or UUII and UVII were part of the ‘long tail’ that got chopped off prematurely/bumped. Which brings me back to the biggest problem with comparing the list is not being open, but insufficient data crunching to group games-series together and onl award one place to the top ranked game within each series, like they did for the official 100. Even better in future they could separate out MMORPGs and other genres at either the voting or the analysis stage.
17/12/2009 at 16:20 BobbleHat says:
Not bought the mag yet, but did Trespasser make the list?
No, seriously.
17/12/2009 at 16:22 diebroken says:
Strange System Shock 2 isn’t at least in the top 10, but Elder Scrolls IV: Oblvion and it’s mod (read: Fallout 3) is. Oh well; it’s not my list. ;)
17/12/2009 at 16:24 Lewis says:
Its having been a straight vote seems to render it conceptually flawed, to be honest. I can’t get my head around publishing a list that says “this is what we think,” when it’s highly unlikely anyone on the “panel” would have picked that exact top 100. In effect, by doing it as a straight vote, you’re publishing a list that nobody involved actually agrees with.
Then again, I don’t think I can think of a better way of doing it. How long did you tend to stay in the pub arguing for, ex-PCG folks? I can’t imaging picking and ranking a hundred games taking any less than a lifetime, when doing it as a group.
17/12/2009 at 19:31 NoahApples says:
Should have used a condorcet method!
17/12/2009 at 16:26 Weylund says:
I believe that Looking Glass games should have their own special “top” list to avoid knocking anyone else out of position. That said, I’m dismayed that no one has mentioned Terra Nova: Strike Force Centauri, probably the best of the power-armor-based emo-movie-cutscene tactical shooters ever to grace this part of the solar system. I’ll assume that it is *not* in its rightful place at number 8, then.
I need to find my Terra Nova discs.
17/12/2009 at 17:04 Taillefer says:
They have a special list in our hearts.
17/12/2009 at 22:49 sebmojo says:
I always found it odd that the noisiest weapon in Terra Nova was the Stealth Grenades.
Mind you ‘Stealth Grenade’ is kind of intrinsically wacky, so maybe they were just working with that.
17/12/2009 at 23:04 Weylund says:
I really loved the way the weapons all worked together – you had weapons that weakened armor, weapons that were designed to be used against weaker armor, weapons with decent spread and splash damage for nailing clumps, some interesting one-offs that came in handy when missions switched gears unexpectedly. And the movement speed and wide open spaces – amazing. It was truly a revolutionary game. And long, too, with some cool RPG elements.
It was basically TiE Fighter, but on the ground and with better graphics.
Of course, then there’s SEAL Team, which no one seems to have played, which was the same, only stretched across an RPG-ish career in Vietnam.
Wow, remember when first-person games *weren’t* all generic foozle-shooters or action RPGs? Shit, EA modeled six *years* worth of operations in Vietnam, forty-odd differentiated SEAL characters, and realistic tactical maneuvers and firefights into a 3D game in 1994.
17/12/2009 at 16:27 Butler` says:
I’d love to know how they go about sorting it, what metric etc.
It doesn’t seem to be popularity / % score / wider acclaim (metacritic) / longeivity or any sensible mix of any of them
17/12/2009 at 16:51 Lewis says:
Butler: It’s always been “Which games do we feel an absolute burning love for, right now?” No specific guidelines for selection other than the panel loving it, I believe.
17/12/2009 at 16:48 Johnny Law says:
Were you only including one game from any given series? Otherwise it seems _really_ odd to have a PC top 100 list that lacks Quake, Doom, and Thief.
Edit: No, I see both Half-Life and HL2 there. OK I’m baffled.
BTW I don’t buy the argument for disregarding mods. To make your analogy more apt IMO, it’s like having a “top operating systems” list and not giving Windows XP credit for being able to run more games (and other apps). I suppose it depends on your intentions for the list — whether you’re focussed on the player experience or trying to “reward” developer achievement. But even in the latter case, the mod-ability of a game and the assets & systems used in the vast majority of mods are provided by the game’s developers.
17/12/2009 at 16:53 Lewis says:
Last year they “broke the one-game-from-a-series rule” to include both Half Lives. I suspect it’s the same this time out.
17/12/2009 at 17:26 Tom Camfield says:
@ Johnny Law
But why would anyone want to play single player Doom or Quake now? I played Doom recently, and personally do not think it’s a great game any more. Not compared to the many alternatives on offer.
Quake 3 I can understand for multiplayer, natch.
17/12/2009 at 18:17 Johnny Law says:
@Tom:
If “what would we like to play right now” is the only criterion, yeah, but it’s not clear to me that that’s the case. There are certainly many other games on this list that you could say that about — just looking at the first page, titles like Ultima Underworld 2 and Sim City 2000 jump out.
(And personally I actually do still play Doom (2) and Quake, much more than for at least 95% of the games on the list, although I don’t expect that to be the case for anyone who wasn’t a big fan of those games when they were first released.)
17/12/2009 at 21:15 D says:
I agree with point nr.2: Of course Kieron should include “modability” in the considerations. Mount&Blade for instance, is a great game mostly because of it’s ability to be modded, and the mods resulting from that. It’s not just about rewarding developers, it’s about crediting the game for its ability to potentially provide near endless replayability/content.
And yeah, Windows is the best game platform (see what I did), but developing a game for it is not “modding”, because you’re defining functionality in a way that is outside of content creation. Ie. the modding ability of a game is defined strictly within the game, but the code you write for Windows is only limited by Turing-complete computability.
18/12/2009 at 05:47 Tom Camfield says:
@ Johnny Law
I agree that Ultima Underworld should not be there, it’s unplayable, but I think Sim City 2000 is still playable, and possibly even better than the later games (this is from memory, I don’t have a PC in front of me to test the theory right now).
This isn’t really the case for Doom and Quake which have been superseded by a number of titles (in the case of Doom, perhaps only by Doom 2 as a pure FPS, I was personally never a fan of Serious Sam).
Quake on the other hand is blatantly rubbish in single player: I recall playing it at the time and running along corridors backwards because enemies would inevitably spawn “behind” me. I may have misjudged the game given the number of plaudits it received at the time, and you clearly like it so I’m happy to say I’m wrong, but I think any game that clueless about enemy placement /must/ have been superseded by something.
18/12/2009 at 14:03 TeeJay says:
Quake games
’06 Q3A #16
’07 Q3A #17
’08 Q3A #34
’09 Q3A #22
’08 public vote: Q3A #58, Quake #98
Doom games
’06 Doom II #37
’07 Doom II #53
’08 Doom II #53
’09 Doom II #27
’08 public vote Doom #52, Doom II #83
Thief games
’06 Thief 3 #8
’07 Thief 3 #11
’08 Thief 2 #14
’09 Thief 2 #9
’08 public vote Thief 2 #78
SimCity games
’06 SimCity2000 #71
’07 SimCity2000 #38
’08 SimCity2000 #38
’09 SimCity2000 #81
’08 public vote: none listed
17/12/2009 at 16:54 Langman says:
I love all the people who don’t ‘get’ Oblivion squealing about its position. The rest of us who understand its brilliance can just sit back and light up a cigar, with smug looks on our faces..
17/12/2009 at 16:56 Derf says:
Then perhaps you could explain from a functional perspective, how it is superior to Morrowind.
17/12/2009 at 17:03 Pidesco says:
Or Daggerfall, for that matter.
Oblivion is an open world game where the world is hopelessly empty and repetitive. Not only is it a not very good game, but it actually fails to achieve what it sets out to do: create a world for the player faff about in varied ways.
17/12/2009 at 17:05 zzzzzzz says:
Oblivion has better Combat…
17/12/2009 at 17:17 zzzzzzz says:
and Horses…
17/12/2009 at 17:51 jsutcliffe says:
… and Horse Armor
17/12/2009 at 17:07 Wooly says:
One of the many things that enrages me is that GTAIV is not only on the list, which in of its self is disgusting, but that it’s in 15th PLACE!!!! WHAT!? Are you saying that wretched, wretched porting catastrophe is better than System Shock 2, Portal, World of Goo, Baldur’s Gate 2, Mass Effect, KotOR, Quake III,mafia,dayofthetentaclegrimfandangoc&cl4ddottstalker- *collapses into foaming heap of nerdrage*
17/12/2009 at 17:23 Derf says:
GTA 4 at #15 winds me up like a jack-in-the-box.
17/12/2009 at 17:58 Jakkar says:
*mutual rage*
17/12/2009 at 17:12 disperse says:
A few thoughts while voting for my Top 5:
It’s really hard to limit yourself to merely 5 choices.
I think I’ll vote for the more obscure titles that I’d like to see in the top 100 like Spelunky and Dwarf Fortress even though they probably aren’t actually in my top 5.
No Nethack?!?
17/12/2009 at 17:14 zzzzzzz says:
Surely u meant : “No Stonesoup?!?”
17/12/2009 at 17:26 disperse says:
The trouble with rogue-likes is there are too many and nobody wants to learn a new system.
I’m a Nethack player and can’t be bothered to learn how to play Angband. I’m sure Angband players feel the same way about Nethhack.
17/12/2009 at 18:34 Clovis says:
Nethack isn’t on the list? I wish I could see this stupid list. Stupid filter that filters “games” on sites where you can’t PLAY games. I shouldn’t complain though, I can access RPS somehow.
Anyway, someone mentioned that AngbankTK is on there, but how can nethack not be? Nethack has to be one of the most important PC games ever.
17/12/2009 at 20:25 disperse says:
I sent an email the the powers that be requesting they add Nethack to the list. I’m holding off on submitting my vote until it gets added.
17/12/2009 at 17:17 BaconAndWaffles says:
No Trackmania?!? I am a ball of fake internet rage and indignation!
17/12/2009 at 17:20 KilgoreTrout XL says:
Is this where I get mad and say that Shadows of Amn is ever-so-slightly better than Oblivion a/k/a the RPG where you run 2 dungeons 400 times in a row?
17/12/2009 at 17:20 Tom Camfield says:
It really (“Rude words” – Ed) when mags run a top 100 with unplayable games in them. If anyone actually went and played Ultima Underworld II all the way through in the last year and didn’t log out after five minutes then I tilt my hat at them, but grr, why not just put games that are mechanically adequate to current generation gamers. Same with Ultima 7, genuinely, I played these last christmas and the laboriousness of it all – it’s senseless to have them in a top 100. SWOS, Fallout, SS2, Planescape Torment, all fine last year, but not the Ultimas. I pity anyone who spends time and money trying to track them down and is left weeping by their inadequacies. Also :)
17/12/2009 at 17:28 disperse says:
Ultima VII is perfectly playable on modern systems using Exult:
http://exult.sourceforge.net/
17/12/2009 at 17:45 Tom Camfield says:
@ disperse
Last time I played it, by which I mean, I played Ultima about a year ago, it was terrible. It worked, but it played like someone had taken a game and then decided to put about eight layers of input between me and any functional control over Lord Britannia et al. I know it functions on modern systems, but is it actually playable? I shall take your word for it and attempt Exult again, which I imagine I did a year ago.
(I would genuinely like to enjoy these games.)
17/12/2009 at 17:49 jsutcliffe says:
@Tom Camfield
That would be the top 100 games you can play now. Possibly a useful list, but different from the top 100 games of all time.
17/12/2009 at 19:17 Thirith says:
“Mechanically inadequate to current generation gamers”? Personally I think that the mechanics of Ultima VII are much less frustrating than those of, say, Neverwinter Nights 2.
17/12/2009 at 20:41 disperse says:
OK, I have to admit that Ultima VII’s mouse-centric interface wasn’t the greatest. For example:
I want to use a potion of healing so I double-left click on Dupre who is carrying a backpack full of yellow potions. Whoops, I’ve initiated a dialog with Dupre. I say goodbye and then double-click on the avatar to open my paper doll and then double-click on Dupre to open his paper doll. Then I double-click on the 5 pixel by 5 pixel portion of his backpack that is showing over his right shoulder. Whoops, I accidentally clicked and dragged and am now holding his backpack. I try and put the backpack back by clicking on Dupre but he has a free hand and ends up holding the backpack. No big deal, I can still double-click the backpack to get to the healing potions. The backpack opens up and I need to rummage through it to find the yellow potions by literally clicking and dragging the icons of various equipment around. Whoops, I double-clicked the map by mistake and am now looking at the map. Etc.
Makes you long for Diablo’s press 1 to drink a healing potion system.
Exult improves on all this by adding hot keys for pretty much everything. You can feed your players, open the spellbook, view the map, use the abacus, use the lockpick, and open any character’s inventory without using the mouse.
18/12/2009 at 05:56 Tom Camfield says:
@ disperse
Ah! Thank you, I might try it now, it’s quite exciting that this game will finally be playable! :)
@ jsutcliffe
I don’t think it would be different, if it’s a top 100 where the game doesn’t have to be playable, then things like Elite and Doom and the Dune 2 should be up there. That they aren’t seems to imply that these games have been succeeded by newer versions. In the case of a first person dungeon crawler for UU2, there are plenty that are mechanically more satisfying for the modern gamer.
@ Thirith
I hated the original NWN, so if NWN2 is as formally dull as the original, I’m quite happy to agree and throw stones at whoever put it on the list. (By formally dull I mean: Clear dungeon 1! Congratulations, now clear dungeon 2! And then I returned the game. Tellingly, no-one ever seems to reference the game compared to Planescape or KOTOR or even BG, so I assume I’ve missed nothing.)
18/12/2009 at 14:37 TeeJay says:
@ Tom Camfield
Re. Elite:
PCG did list Elite (1983) in their 2006 top 100 (#65), but from ’07 to ’09 they have listed “Frontier: Elite II” (1993) on the grounds that it is more easily playable today (’07 = #63, ’08 = #74, ’09 = #31).
Re. Doom
From ’06 to ’09 PCG have always listed “Doom II” (1994) rather than Doom (1993) (’06 = #37, ’07 = #53, ’08 = #53, ’09 = #27).
Re. Dune
No games listed ’06 to ’09
Re. NWN
Neither NWN (2002) or NWN2 (2006) have been listed this year or last although:
’07 NWN2 = #90
’06 NWN = #72
Even NWN fans don’t rate the games ‘original campaigns’ that highly – they are/were popular because of the content creation tools, active communities / tons of free contenta and allowing customised multiplayer servers and games run by Dungeon Masters. The most popular official/paid-for NWN2 expansion/add-ons seem to be Mask of the Betrayer (2007) and Mysteries of Westgate (2009).
17/12/2009 at 17:39 TeeJay says:
I’ve just used a spread-sheet to compare this years Top 100 with the last one or two years, and here are the *changes* from previous years grouped into: new releases “INSTALL”, older/classic games appearing for the first time “REINSTALL”, variations in the choice from a series “UPGRADE” and finally those games which have been kicked out of the top 100 “DELETE”. The numbers don’t exactly add up because I looked at 06/07 as well as 08/09.
INSTALL
fallout 3, gta 4, world of goo, l4d, dragon age, spelunky, space giraffe, street fighter 4, braid, burnout paradise, king’s bounty, far cry 2, dawn of war 2, mirror’s edge
RE-INSTALL
star control 2, planetside, carmageddon, colonisation, mech commander, tribes, enemy territory,
wings of victory, cave story, star trek final unity, tetris, another world, gothic 2, solitaire
bubble bobble, jagged alliance 2
UPGRADE
medieval 2 >> rome
arma 1 >> 2
champ.man. etc.>> football man 2008
sims 2 >> sims 3
dungeon keeper 1 >> 2
dawn of war 1 >> 2
tomb raider anniversary >> 2
ut 3 >> 2004
Combat Mission: afrika corps >> beyond overlord
gta:sa & gta:vc >> gta 4
monkey island 1 >> 2
nolf 2 >> nolf 1
DELETE
world in conflict, city of heroes, rollercoaster tycoon 2, psychonauts, fear, trackmania united, guild wars, masq, defcon, day of defeat source, warcraft 3, gears of war, C&C3, pop: sands of time, ground control, far cry, syndicate, Race driver GRID, SWAT 4, Brothers in Arms, Silent Hunter 3, Desktop Tower defence, LOTR online, N, Enemy Territory Quake Wars, Sam & Max, Crimson Skies, Rise of Nations, Alpha Centauri, Full Throttle, Fable, Just Cause, Armageddon, Empires, Sins of a Solar Empire
+++++++++++
I think it’s a shame that Psychonauts, Sands of Time, Far Cry and Alpha Centauri got axed.
17/12/2009 at 18:44 Sparvy says:
A bit surprising WarCraft 3 was dropped.
18/12/2009 at 01:58 datoo says:
I’m just happy they put Spelunky in there!
17/12/2009 at 18:43 passingtramp says:
88?!
17/12/2009 at 18:49 SuperNashwan says:
No way is x better than y! And why no mention of z! For shame.
17/12/2009 at 18:51 SuperNashwan says:
Ah, I see Clovis has already been there. We should form a club.
17/12/2009 at 19:39 jsutcliffe says:
The punchline being that Z was an excellent game.
17/12/2009 at 19:03 thaine says:
I’m gleeful that Deus Ex is finally getting a number one spot somewhere. Best. Game. Ever.
17/12/2009 at 19:11 MagazineLawl says:
No X-COM in the top 10 (Fallout 3 and Oblivion instead ?!?).
Also Audiosurf but not SMAC?
Are they doing this on purpose to drive up website hits from nerdrage?
17/12/2009 at 19:17 Johnny Law says:
What? Audiosurf is _clearly_ superior to SMAC. :-)
Seriously though this is what you get when you average votes. Titles that at-least-kinda-appeal to everyone get a boost.
17/12/2009 at 20:12 Kieron Gillen says:
Johnny Law: Nah, it’swhat happens when you get to pick 15 games which collate into the list. I could name 15 awesome strategy games that should be in it… but I’m not going to pick all 15 for it. Occasionally, you get a classic which no-one just included. When you’re getting to Audiosurf, you’re getting to stuff which only a couple of people picked at the bottom part of their list.
KG
17/12/2009 at 20:25 Bret says:
Hey, 11′s perfectly respectable.
I mean, X-Com’s great, but I can understand position 11.
17/12/2009 at 20:35 Vinraith says:
@Kieron Gillen
“I could name 15 awesome strategy games that should be in it… ”
Would you, please? I’d be interested in seeing that. :)
17/12/2009 at 21:02 Kieron Gillen says:
Viniarth: Okay, let’s take that one. Including ones which are in it already – which is what I said – or only ones which aren’t included?
KG
17/12/2009 at 21:31 Vinraith says:
@Kieron Gillen: I was thinking in terms of the way you meant it. That is, including games already in this list.
17/12/2009 at 21:45 BooleanBob says:
It’s a trap, KG! Vinraith is going to spin dramatically in his chair, slam his bagel on the desk and inform you that each and every one of the games you name is ACTUALLY A REAL TIME TACTICAL.
17/12/2009 at 21:48 Vinraith says:
@BooleanBob
I’m willing to accept a broad definition of “strategy game,” here. My problem is with people that use the word “strategy” as though RTS games were the only strategy games that exist. RTT’s and RTS’s are a lot of fun, but there’s a wide world of strategy out there and hopefully Kieron’s list will pull from across the spectrum.
18/12/2009 at 00:11 Kieron Gillen says:
Vinarith: Well, Rainbow Islands to start with…
Okay, more seriously and equally off the top of my head, while trying to avoid any duplicates (i.e. World in Conflict = No Ground Control) and trying to select things which are still highly playable. And which I would actually play (i.e. No Starcraft).
Civ 4
Alpha Centauri
World in Conflict
Sacrifice
Age of Wonders 2: Shadow Magic (Always my choice for This Sort of Thing over HoMM, etc)
Sims 3
X-Com
Plants Vs Zombies
Dwarf Fortress
Rome: Total War.
Company of Heroes
Dawn of War: The One With The Necron If I Had To Pick
Armageddon Empires
Galactic Civilizations 2: The Full Thing
Laser Squad Nemesis
I’d probably lob a few more borderline stuff in there – stuff of the status of Weird Worlds, Battle for Wesnoth, etc. I’d work out a way to sneak Chaos and Deutros in there too. Of course, that way leads to Lord of Midnight, which gets the C64 people talking about 7 Cities of Gold, etc. So better to not go that way, for madness lies.
All off the top of my head, etc, etc.
(Oh shit! Megalomania!)
KG
18/12/2009 at 01:36 BooleanBob says:
@KG
Yeah, pretty nice list. What strikes me about it is that when, as Vinraith says, the word ‘strategy’ comes up I really do tend to think BZZT***C&C**Starcraft** and quietly tune out my brain. And yet I’ve at least had a go at pretty much all the games you mention there, and fallen in swoony love with several. “Damnit, Klaus, can’t you make zis thing go any faster?!”
Still, no love for game X, or Y*?
* Where game X is Giants: Citizen Kabuto, and game Y is also Giants: Citizen Kabuto.
18/12/2009 at 02:14 Vinraith says:
@Kieron Gillen
Dear god that’s a fantastic list, by which I mean I agree with virtually all of it. I think I’d substitute Close Combat (4, if I had to pick) for Company of Heroes, I’d have to include a Europa Universalis game in there somewhere (or Crusader Kings) and I think it’s intriguing that you included The Sims (which is not to say I inherently disagree, it just wouldn’t have occurred to me to consider that a strategy game) but by and large I agree with everything on there that I’ve actually played.
Which, of course, means I’m off the grab copies of the ones I haven’t played (Armageddon Empires, Dwarf Fortress, and Laser Squad Nemesis, if you’re curious). Similarly, I’ll suggest that you should find some time to play the complete version of Sword of the Stars if you haven’t. With taste in strategy games so similar to mine I can’t believe you wouldn’t enjoy it.
17/12/2009 at 19:51 [21CW] 2000AD says:
At last some recognition for Football Manager and Mechcommander (Suck on it Mechwarrior!) in these lists, now all we need is X-com: Apocalypse to start creeping in.
Where the flying feck is Alpha Centauri, the pinnacle of Sid Meier’s civ style games? Man I hope the’re doing an update for it like they did with Colonisation.
And Peggle at 41?! Fecking PEGGLE!?!?
How Peggle beats out all the other games people have mentioned is beyond me, even if there had to be a pop cap game in tehre it should have been Plants Vs Zombies.
17/12/2009 at 19:54 Viperion says:
No Total Annihilation? But we do have ST:Final Unity and Darwinia? C’mon!
17/12/2009 at 20:36 jason138 says:
Good point on BG1 vs BG2. I also loved the focus on levels 1-5 (was the level cap 5?). That’s where it’s at for me in PnP or crpg. I prefer a trademan-like adventurer to a demigod savior of the world.
17/12/2009 at 20:41 Vinraith says:
The level cap was, IIRC, around 15. It certainly wasn’t 5. The lowest level cap in a D&D crpg that I can recall it Temple of Elemental Evil’s 10. Personally, I hate low levels in D&D, as for spellcasters they’re just something you have to wait through before you can do anything cool or useful. When I ran PnP campaigns I invariably started my PC’s at 3rd, just so I could throw a combat encounter at them without fear of a random die roll killing the entire party.
17/12/2009 at 20:49 disperse says:
I agree with Vinraith. Low level AD&D combat is frustrating. A small number of hitpoints means you’ll be restarting often due to YAAD, spellcasters are almost useless, and you limited skill set makes for less interesting choices.
Baldur’s Gate II had a better interface too (although the Tutu mod allows you to play Baldur’s Gate I using the Baldur’s Gate II engine)
That said, I’ve often fantasized about having a free week with a few good friends to co-op through BG1 and BG2 in one sitting.
17/12/2009 at 23:24 Jeremy says:
I agree with Jason, my most enjoyable / memorable moments in most games are in those beginning “survival” stages when you’re barely scraping by each fight, situation, scenario, etc. This is true of most any type of game dealing with a curve I guess; strategy games along the lines of the Total War series, Romance of the 3 Kingdom sagas rather than a Starcraft or something, and some RPGs. Fallout 3, in my mind, would have been infinitely better if they had continued the scavenging mentality for ammo, guns, health, etc. For me, the game sort of lost its intrigue once I became a headshot machine with 800 extra health packs. I don’t even remember what the story was, just that it was basic, but the real magic was the survival mentality in the first 10 – 12 levels.
17/12/2009 at 23:48 Vinraith says:
@Jeremy
With a game system well designed for the “survival stage” I tend to agree that it can be the best part of the game, but in the case of D&D games in particular it’s simply not designed for it. The hit points are too low, there are virtually no skills or abilities in play to make things interesting, spellcasters are completely screwed, there’s really just nothing good about low levels in D&D IMO. The worst part, speaking as a former DM, is that the peaks and valleys of randomization are large enough to simply engulf lower level characters. In one bad die roll a first level character can go from alive to dead. That’s simply not fun for anyone, I don’t think. It certainly isn’t for me.
18/12/2009 at 00:31 Adam Whitehead says:
The level cap in BG1 is Level 8 in the vanilla game and Level 9 with Tales of the Sword Coast installed.
18/12/2009 at 00:50 Vinraith says:
@Adam Whitehead
Wow, I remembered THAT wrong. Thanks for the correction.
18/12/2009 at 01:42 Adam Whitehead says:
Having said that, I think most people playing BG1 and TotSC today would use the Tutu or similar mod which runs them in the BG2 engine (allowing the use of higher resolutions, custom map markers, journals and all the other BG2 goodness), and I think that also removes the level restrictions, allowing you to go as high as BG2/ToB allow you (Level 45 or something insane) in BG1 if you really wanted to. I’m not sure if that ballses up your character’s transition to BG2 or not, but I don’t think it does.
I do plan to do the BG1/SotTC/BG2/ToB full replay at some point, and if I’d know I was going to be unemployed for as long as I have been, I would have done it this year. It is a vast undertaking.
17/12/2009 at 20:43 Droniac says:
These ‘Top Games’ list are great for showing how everyone thinks of their favourite games differently than anyone else. No one will agree with it anyway.
But I have to admit, this one stuns even me. It’s not just that I disagree with many of the games that made the list, and their placings, which is logical. Rather it’s a very odd oversight in this top 100 (surely it must be an oversight). I spot its utterly inferior sequel at place #18, yet where is Unreal Tournament!?
And there’s naught to do but laugh at #69 (Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory). Oh, it is a good game and I might even have ranked it a little higher. It’s just that Return to Castle Wolfenstein isn’t placed above it. That’s just… wrong. It’s not just that RtCW is a vastly superior multiplayer shooter, but also that most of the W:ET community actually agrees with that assessment. You see, most ET players play with ETPro mod enabled, which turns W:ET into… oh, that’s right… RtCW-light. (ETPro plays much more like RtCW than W:ET vanilla).
Otherwise it’s just the usual switches and additions.
I’d rate the #88 in the PCGamer top 100 higher than most of its top 10 for example (yup, Outcast).
Likewise I wouldn’t let Team Fortress 2 anywhere near the top 10, because there are many multiplayer shooters that I would consider completely superior (UT, Quake 3, RtCW and Tribes to name just a few).
Nor would Fallout 3 ever rank higher than the likes of a Baldur’s Gate 2, Dragon Age, PlaneScape Torment or The Witcher. And Rome: Total War would have a hard time even showing up in a top 50 strategy games of all-time list (StarCraft, WarCraft 3, Dawn of War, Ground Control, Supreme Commander, Heroes of Might & Magic, Civilization, Alpha Centauri, King’s Bounty, Homeworld, Red Alert, etc, etc, etc, etc.).
17/12/2009 at 21:02 Flint says:
Outcast is the #1 game ever, obviously.
17/12/2009 at 21:02 Kieron Gillen says:
Flint: No, it’s the #57th best game ever. LEARN TO READ THE POST.
KG
17/12/2009 at 21:34 Shadrach says:
Wot, no Red Orchestra?? :( I’ll rectifiy that.
17/12/2009 at 21:42 Alastayr says:
Meh, it’s a list full of BS that’s what it is. You’d think that most of the PCG staff voting on this got into gaming yesteryear. I used to get angry at those lists but not any more. It’s just reaffirming the fact that most people in the world (even those you’re friends with) have unspeakably bad taste. ;)
17/12/2009 at 21:43 Wizlah says:
Surprised to see The Void or Zeno Clash didn’t make the list, in some way acknowledging that this year we’ve had some distinctly weird, strange (dare I say fantastic?), fictional settings. I hope this trend continues to go from strength to strength and that developers start to work on more unique worlds again.
17/12/2009 at 21:46 dspair says:
There are three games made by Looking Glass (counting System Shock 2) and two more made by ex-Looking Glass people in Looking Glass’ design tradition (counting BioShock despite anything). 2 games out of these 5 have landed in the Top-10, and one of them topped the list.
There is justice in the world, and (no matter that some people think that justice is actually a lady) his name is Kieron Gillen.
17/12/2009 at 21:54 Snuffy (the Evil) says:
I noticed Battlefield 1942 wasn’t present and was about to go stark raving mad, but I saw Battlefield 2 was there so I calmed down a little.
17/12/2009 at 22:14 Misnomer says:
Yeah I meant 1943…darn numbers.
17/12/2009 at 22:16 Misnomer says:
1942….did it again and didn’t reply to my orignal quote. Editing would be nice as well.
17/12/2009 at 23:14 Severian says:
Peggle > Dungeon Keeper 2 ?
HORNY ABOUT TO GO ON RAMPAGE, YOU F***ING UNICORNS!
17/12/2009 at 23:36 TeeJay says:
I think the next time someone does a “big list” like this I hope they separate it out genre-by-genre because it would bring out the ‘debate’ and ‘critique’ side of the process more clearly and also trace the evolution of genres.
It would also remove the understandable ‘we need to include a token casual/puzzle/text/naval sim/ adventure’ list balancing that the sees some arguably more deserving popular classics dropped off the bottom to make room.
Of course you’d probably get a different kind of “list balancing” where there would be a token “modern” adventure or where unconventional/oddball games would get places to add diversity, but IMO this would still refocus the debate on the ciritical narrative – “what makes a good RTS?”, “where do we want our FPS to go next?”, “what makes a good MMORPG?” and so forth. It would also allow the ‘terms of reference’ to be a bit more transparent – genres age differently
You’d also run headlong into the longstanding debate about how to define genres, but this wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing either IMO because hopefully as game design evolves, genres definitions – both current and retrospective – will evolve as well, what better way than via a high profile ‘best of’ list.
Different people enjoy ‘Top 100s’ in different ways – maybe it’s seeing which of the “big names” came number 1, seeing how many classic obscure oldies you recognise, catching sight of an unfamiliar game that you decide to investigate, helping you decide which part of your backlog of unplayed games to take on next or maybe just helping to illuminate where you stand in relation to a certain group of reviewers/critics, which will steer you towards more recommendations from the same people. On the “public vote” type ones it’s interesting to see what people are playing and heartening when great indie or niche games appear amongst the AAAs. A more ‘conventional’ Top 100 would be excellent for people new to PC gaming, whereas a more quirky approach to curating the list might be of more interest to people who have already seen the same names appear year-after-year, are keener to explore a bit more off the beaten track and who will enjoy a bit of fun ‘received-wisedom-baiting’.
Not saying that this applies to PCG but – the worse of all worlds would be trying to be everything to everyone, being obaque about the mechanics, methodology and criteria and then trying to retrospectively justify the ranking, inclusions and exclusions ex-post-facto as representing a finely tuned and coherent viewpoint as opposed to list-balancing, rounding errors, toss-ups and year-on-year inertia. IMO it’s better to spell out very strong and clear fresh criteria each year and explain who is being kicked out and promoted as a consequence, mention the main controversy/arguments etc – all of which makes more sense in a genre-focussed context IMO.
18/12/2009 at 06:14 Tom Camfield says:
@ TeeJay
Edge did this, what, 5 years ago, longer? They had a Top 10 of 10 genres, multi format. Platformers, shooter, strategy, puzzle, etc. For every genre they had a little list at the bottom for additional games that were nominated, so the list was maybe closer to 200 titles, which gave you tons of titles to explore. It was one of the best lists I’ve read.
Naturally, being Edge, being controversial, Deus Ex was nowhere to be found. (I think I read that Ste had forgotten about it, but even if he hadn’t, he wouldn’t have given it a place on the list, bless him.)
(Can’t find it on the internet or I’d paste a link up.)
18/12/2009 at 00:07 somnolentsurfer says:
Another year when The Longest Jouney’s not at number one. What’s with the massive drop? That’s what happens when you don’t give Walker enough say.
18/12/2009 at 01:10 Adam Whitehead says:
An interesting list. These lists always have to be checked for a few signature games which, if missing, immediately cast its viablity in doubt. Once it is confirmed that FREESPACE 2, ANACHRONOX, PLANESCAPE TORMENT, MAFIA, HOMEWORLD and MONKEY ISLAND 2 are all present and correct, serious discussion can begin ;-)
The absence of FAR CRY and the presence of the painfully inferior FAR CRY 2 is bizarre. FC2 is mindlessly repetitive and astonishingly dull. Respawning enemies, something we did away with in the 1990s and seem to be making an ugly reappearance thanks to FC2, CoD4 and BIOSHOCK (although BIOSHOCK at least sort of hides it with the open levels generally accessible from multiple directions), make the game almost comically unplayable. FC1 is still pretty good throughout, in contrast (although the mutants are still annoying).
The absence of GROUND CONTROL and HOSTILE WATERS is unfortunate. Both are very fine ‘different approach’ RTS games, and certainly GC is a stronger game than WORLD IN CONFLICT (fine as that game is, but it is a dumbed-down, mainstream-acceptable version of GC’s more unforgiving and hardcore nature). HOSTILE WATERS I might put down to being forgotten by the non RPS-journalists contributing to the list. Playing it again recently I was struck by how fricking awesome it is compared to any recent game I’ve played.
GTA4 is a really crappy, unoptimised conversion of a console game. What it’s doing on the list I’m not sure.
After one of these lists a few years ago generated controversy, one of the forums I’m on decided to create our own list with some 200 people voting. The list we came up with in early 2007 (before FALLOUT 3, TF2 or PORTAL came out) was:
1. StarCraft
2. Planescape: Torment
3. Baldur’s Gate II
4. Civilization IV
5. Half-Life
6. Half-Life 2
7. Deus Ex
8. TIE Fighter
9. Medieval: Total War
10. X-COM/UFO
In addition, ROME: TOTAL WAR was at #11 and FALLOUT at #14, so there are some similarities.
A few notable things about our list was MORROWIND at #25, the total absence of OBLIVION (which didn’t even get ONE vote a year after release, which I still think is bemusing), WORLD OF WARCRAFT at #30 (which shocked me, given how many people I know play WoW regularly) and, in a fit of old-schoolness, THE OREGON TRAIL at joint #45 (alongside MAX PAYNE 2 and MEDIEVAL II: TOTAL WAR, for maximum oddness).
18/12/2009 at 01:27 whitebrice says:
Ok I love Deus Ex as much as the next guy, but seriously people, Cave Story is and forever will be #1.
That said, just seeing Cave Story in their list warmed my heart like hot chocolate on a rainy night.
18/12/2009 at 01:34 Ozzie says:
This list is weird. I mean, some stuff in it is good, but is it good enough for a Top 100? Don’t think so.
Is Star Trek: A Final Unity really that good to be included? I guess I have to finally play it to find out…what’s doing the bore of Oblivion up there? And Anachronox, aka “Yeah, nice story, but where’s the gameplay?”??? Seriously? Come on, it’s such a drag to play. Ugh…I played it so long, because everyone cheered at it, and I had the hope that it would become interesting. Oh, and the depressing music at the beginning…in such a comedy game…so misplaced! I had the feeling they wanted me to kill myself!! One of the few occasions where I had to turn the music off in a game because it was so unbearing, and so out of tone with the rest of the game.
Okay, enough ranting about Anachronox!
The Longest Journey then…good game, but so full of flaws, and so formulaic, uninnovative…I don’t know what it’s doing there.
Rome: Total War isn’t my kind of game, so I dunno.
About the rest, can’t say, haven’t played much of it.
What do I miss? Adventurewise, Death Gate. And Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis. Both so perfect and fun like only few adventures are!
18/12/2009 at 01:44 Ozzie says:
Okay, regarding the top spots: Deus Ex is a great game, especially for its time, but I still have to laugh when I see the convienently placed explosive barrels. Or the notes that conveniently mention passwords, for example. Challenged my suspension of disbelief a bit.
And Half Life 2….the action can get tedious sometimes, and the boat sections weren’t very fun. Not that great for the second spot.
18/12/2009 at 03:32 Spacewalk says:
A top xx list without Hexen is a list I care not for.
18/12/2009 at 03:33 Grape Flavor says:
What’s the point of these features, anyway? All it does is incite massive nerd rage, and much of it is justified. (except for all those people who couldn’t appreciate Oblivion, sorry, you’re just defective)
Team Fortress 2 is the 3rd greatest PC game of all time? Higher than Half-Life? Higher than every great RPG ever created? Really? Hitman: Blood Money is 77 places higher than than Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory? What? Far Cry 1 totally missing? Hmm? World of Goo higher than Starcraft?
I’ll get over it but many of these rankings are mind-bogglingly odd.
18/12/2009 at 06:18 Tom Camfield says:
@ Grape Flavor
I imagine the PC Gamer gets a lot of hits for this kind of thing, which all helps ad revenue :)
18/12/2009 at 03:38 Ozzie says:
How could you like Oblivion!?
“Stop! Thief!” Gah…well, some love dung, apparently. ;P
But then, I also can’t appreciate Daggerfall….and the writing in Morrorwind put me to sleep, so I didn’t continue playing, though I think the rest might have been better.
18/12/2009 at 03:49 Grape Flavor says:
Oblivion is not for those who only desire constant adrenaline-rush special-effects spectaculars like Call of Duty. It creates a vast, well crafted fantasy sandbox in which players can immerse themselves and build a character. It requires the player to use their senses of wonder and imagination. If you were playing it always waiting for the next flashy set-piece I could see how you’d hate it. But for anyone who likes an slower-paced RPG sandbox game it’s a stellar achievement.
Some games certain people just don’t “get”, even when overall they get enormous critical acclaim. Oblivion is one example. Crytek’s games are another. It doesn’t mean the games are “dung”, it means that your particular tastes as a gamer happen to be incompatible with the design. I was just joking about “defective”, but really, it’s not a failure on the developer’s part, it’s your preferences as a gamer.
18/12/2009 at 03:57 Ozzie says:
Well, I see failures in Oblivion, but anyway, I’m not sure I even played it enough. But, I remember I didn’t like it.
I like my adventures and RPGs, though. :)
18/12/2009 at 03:59 Vinraith says:
Some people want to be told a story, and some people want to create their own. Oblivion (and Bethesda RPG’s in general) is definitely for the second group.
18/12/2009 at 04:03 TCM says:
I would consider myself an oddity, as I like pretty much all genres of gaming, as long as they are not overly simplistic and easy. JRPGs, WRPGs, FPS, RTS, it doesn’t matter to me, as long as it’s fun and not a cakewalk.
18/12/2009 at 04:41 Grape Flavor says:
@Vinraith
Excellent way of putting it.
18/12/2009 at 05:23 Adam Whitehead says:
OBLIVION is very popular because it is a very lightweight and non-challenging RPG. It has no real depth, the writing is utterly atrocious, the dialogue risible, the main storyline mind-numbingly predictable, the art design astonishingly ordinary and the absence of variety in sound and graphical design giving rise to immersion-breaking situations where you have several characters who look the same and have the same voice getting into conversations, which is frankly weird as hell. The levelling system in the game is also completely broken, to the point where levelling is completely pointless (you may as well never bother, as it makes the game harder in the mid-level period and they trivially easy by the time you hit Level 20) or if you know how it works (or have access to the Internet) you can take advantage of it to push up your skill points without levelling, thus becoming an invincible superwarrior at Level 1 fairly easily.
Where the game is successful are the occasional hilarious bug, the Dark Brotherhood quests and a few other well-designed and imaginative side-quests (the floating boat and the painting ones are great), not to mention some vastly entertaining mods. It also gave me the biggest laugh I’ve ever had in a game, when I discovered that after attacking Umbra in her dungeon near the Imperial City at the start of the game and running away when she caned me, she had remained on the warpath for the next 50-odd hours whilst I completed the entire rest of the game and left a vast pile of corpses halfway around the lake, then me and Sean Bean bumped into her on the way back to the city for the final showdown and had to despatch her. For that alone, I certainly wouldn’t rate OBLIVION as crap.
Compared to its more imaginative (if slightly more boring) predecessor, MORROWIND, OBLIVION is a rather conservative game aimed at a lower-common-denominator audience. Compared to many, many other RPGs, it simply isn’t that great, and certainly shouldn’t be rated in a Top 10 list when BALDUR’S GATE 1+2 are ranked much lower, and definitely if its mods – without which the game is almost functionally broken – are not included.
If nothing else, how can you have an RPG in the Top 10 that does not even feature ONE three-dimensional, well-characterised, well-motivated memorable NPC? That is just insane.
18/12/2009 at 08:56 Trubka says:
That’s the thing with Oblivion or Morrowind, I wanted to love those games, played them a lot but there’s something wrong with them, I lost interest in both them every time I started playing them and invested some time in them… I couldn’t figure out what it was, because basically, they both should be exactly what I want from RPG… then my cousin mentioned the word “sterile” and I think that’s it…
18/12/2009 at 10:39 Baboonanza says:
I absolutely loved Morrowind when I played it. It has a very unique, weird style and gives you absolute freedom to discover the world as you see fit. I even like the fact that you can break the world in interesting ways, the ability to fly being the best example. And it got away with a lot because it didn’t try to be ‘real’ or generic fantasy so you can rationalise the faults more easily
The writing is almost irrelevant to me. The number of games I’ve played that have actually had a story and writing good enough to stand-up on it’s own is miniscule (System Shock 1&2, Grim Fandango etc) and I don’t think a single one of them is a classical RPG, though they sometimes get it right in the odd side-quest. I am constantly amazed that people play games for the story since IMO they are almost uniformly tripe. Bioware games are a prime example here, I just don’t get the love.
So in my eyes the problem with Oblivion wasn’t the writing – it was the blandness of the world. There are some really good, creative quests in there but they are overwhelmed by the uninterestingness of everything, particularly the identikit dungeons (something that was equally prevalent in Morrowind but stands out more here I think). Fallout 3 was a much better game because it fixed a lot of what was wrong with Oblivion – it had a unique world, filled with interesting things to discover and little poignant notes about the passing of the world which are more subtle and moving than any RPG storyline I’ve yet encountered.
So devs: Give me a game, and fuck the story unless you can actually do one good enough to warrant the effort. And play to the strengths of the medium goddammit, I can already get great linear stories in books and film.
Hmm, first thing in the morning. Think I got a bit ranty :)
18/12/2009 at 09:16 Lambchops says:
I love that this article is tagged with capital letters mentioning the wonderful Outcast.
Also if anyone knows how to get it running on a nice modern day computer could they please tell me because i really want to play the damn thing again as it is easily one of my favourite games ever.
18/12/2009 at 12:25 Droniac says:
Outcast is awesome! And there’s a short piece on how-to-get-Outcast-working-on-modern-PCs on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outcast_%28video_game%29#Playing_Outcast_today. Don’t know whether it works in Windows VIsta/7, but it should be good for XP.
18/12/2009 at 12:53 Muzman says:
Thief 1 is better than both Half-Lives THERE I SAID IT
(Fallout 3 way up there. I wonder what that’s going for these days)
18/12/2009 at 13:56 SiUnit says:
I am constantly astounded by the epic journalism of the site’s writers. Not only do they take the piss at every possible opportunity, they simultaneously present well balanced opinions. Long live RPS, the only site who won’t automatically give a game 10/10 just because it has a publisher. You are the unicorn of game journalism.
18/12/2009 at 15:24 The Sombrero Kid says:
simularca is to imitate life, the word you were looking for is simulation.
18/12/2009 at 19:24 Frank says:
wrongs to be righted: oblivion and total war don’t belong within a mile of the top 10.
19/12/2009 at 00:27 TooNu says:
I just saw this and WOOHOO! JUSTICE!!!!! VIDICATION!!! DEUS EX GO ON MY SON!! :)
It’s like all my Christmas’s rolled into one, beautiful choice guys and I applaud you /clap/clap/clap
03/01/2010 at 03:53 Lizard Dude says:
Um, is voliciferous really a word or did KG make that up Shakespeare-style? Because I can’t seem to find any dictionary entries for it.
03/01/2010 at 04:00 Jeffthewonderbadger says:
@ Lizard Dude.
It’s a typo, I guess. Try vociferous.