I think what he was driving at was that he would have preferred it if you were FORCED to make those choices. The two outcomes you describe were completely avoidable.

I tend to agree with him – I’ve been of the opinion that choice in computer games is virtually meaningless without sacrifce. So it comes down to these so called “safe choices” ie you chose the good option because you know you won’t be punished. What if you had to give something up whichever route you took. The choice then takes on signifigance. ME1 DID have one such important choice. I’d like to have seen more of that. And hopefully we will in the final chapter.

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I failed to have Zaeed loyal to me as after saving the people, I chose wrong words. I also lost Miranda’s loyalty as I chose Jack over Miranda in their argument. So yes, you do have this kind of choices you speak about.

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Gotta say that I loved it. I’ll admit to having had a go at mass effect 1 when it first came out on PC and finding it a bit dull. However, I had another crack at it in preparation for number 2 and by golly it transported me entirely.

I’m also going to admit right here that it’s quite rare for me to see most games through to completion these days. Partly because now I’s a full time working member of society, I don’t usually have the time for it. Also when the industry bombards me with several great titles I tend to flitter between titles and eventually lose track and interest. So I finished this and I felt fully satisfied, happy and exuberant. Although I am left wanting more.

ANYWAY! Mass Effect 2 was brilliant. I loved the atmosphere intensely, even more than the first. And all the characters really caught me imagination. Just as importantly for me – I did every mission in the game and I was a lot more impressed by all their presentations. Clear and well presented storylines – frequently interwoven and relevant. I actually much preferred the linearity of these missions as well if I’m honest. Kept them focused and maintained immersion in the story.

Please bear in mind that I am a bit of a die hard RPGer here, so when I am heaping praise on the game I really mean it. For me, an RPG is NOT defined by the combat system or the inventory. For me it is about character development and cause and effect. There is a larger conversation to be had here. But essentially I mean that if you as a player can actively effect the develop the person of your character and also interact with the characters and environment in a meaningful way then that would be enough.

As far as I am concerned then, ME2 is absolutely an RPG. I was a lot more impressed with the paragon/renegade developments this time around.

There are definitely faults with the game, there is no denying. I thought that although I really enjoyed the character interaction, and the stories they told, the mechanics were ridiculously formulaic. The “This section of the game is where you develop relationships and not much else” shocked me after it was so well integrated with the main storyline in the previous game. It also lost a lot of edge when there were virtually no pressure here. You could essentially delay indefinitely and ensure that you had completed each character’s plot line. What really did get to me here, though, was the loyalty mission trigger. I thought the introduction to each mission was extremely abrupt. It didn’t matter how little you chatted with people, they would always offer up this mission at some predetermined point, and completion of that mission (difficult to fail, although possible so that’s good) meant instant loyalty. This did disappoint me when in ME1, these missions had to be teased gradually from companions. It would have surely been a relatively simple matter to improve on that. Then you are rewarded for your interactions with characters – or punished. That would seem the more RPG way, and even the more ME way.

I feel I am rambling so I’ll stop here.

Just to say, it had flaws but despite them, I think it’s one of the better games and better RPG’s I’ve played for a while!

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I’ve also never had cause to use pull, it was always more efficient to just;
a) run up to them
b) finish them with a damaging power (incinerate or warp are best)

It’s also annoying how the rock paper scissors system leads to cookie cutter battles. It’s just, hide, use appropriate move a), use appropriate move b), finish with gun. That said, infiltrator/solider/vanguard have a couple of ways to mix up the battlefield.

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Lilliput King said:
Oh, I get it. This makes much more sense. You’ve shed the rather peculiar pretence of arguing genre roles and revealed your true colours – that you think things are changing, that you’re scared, and that, well, you say it best:

Very true.

Change is good, you know why? Because the old stuff still sticks around and there’s good new stuff too!

Sure maybe we don’t have as many 2d turn based Tolkein rip off RPGs as we used to, but they’re still around, plus there’s all this other cool stuff.

Embrace the change, it means something for everyone, anything else comes off as selfish.

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Anonymous Coward said:
You must have a lot of time on your hands, Dante #2.

It’s funny how all of these new names turn up in Bioware threads that I never see anywhere else. Really funny. I’ve started to pick up on that now, actually, now that I’m paying close attention to the regulars.

I’m sorry, what?

Not that it would be remotely relevant, but I’ve been around here for quite some time thanks. Click on the ‘Orc’ bit, it’ll say ‘Member since October 23, 2008′, or about a year longer than you.

If you aren’t arguing with anyone, what are you actually saying? All you seem to be doing is rambling about how much you love Gann.

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Lilliput King said:
Oh, I get it. This makes much more sense. You’ve shed the rather peculiar pretence of arguing genre roles and revealed your true colours – that you think things are changing, that you’re scared, and that, well, you say it best:

“everything is turning into action action action”

It’s not a trend I’ve seen, but I don’t think anyone can allay your fears. The PC is an open platform – if there is the demand for long-form, complex RPGs, they’ll be made, and released. If there isn’t, well, that’s unfortunate. But it isn’t a conscious decision on anyone’s part. There’s no-one to argue against, here.

You seem to have lost the plot. This began with the assertion that ME2 is an RPG. The disagreement is that it’s not, it’s an action game with dialogue.

Fear? What? There is only anger at people for redefining the genre to something so broad and meaningless. With these vague standards of Character Interaction and Development, I suppose GTA IV will be in the RPG hall of fame soon enough, with its “Gripping RPG decisions on the lives of characters – who lives, who dies, and the fate of Liberty City itself!!”

When there’s nothing concrete about RPG definitions left, all gameplay will simply be designed to appeal to the widest swath of the market at the same time- action action action with chattiness. That’s how RPGs will disappear, death by dilution, piecemeal elements used elsewhere, but the idea of character based gameplay discarded.

As for not noticing things turning to Action….really? Compare today’s market with that of 10 years ago. How many releases are Shooters, or God of War clones. How many genres have shrunk to tiny niches? Even Obsidian’s games are shooters now, with Alpha Protocol and the upcoming Fallout: New Vegas. Survival Horror is now simply shooters with zombies, as if that element defines everything.

And, whatever, maybe it’s the inevitable voice of the market, but at the very least I want there to be recognition that it’s happening.

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Oddity: many people fund the whole scan for mineral tedious. I find it oddly relaxing. Its the perfect accompaniment when you are doing something else and can’t be 100% stuck to the game. Even though I don’t have to I plan to full exploit… er I mean explore every planet… filthy capitalist that I am.

All your resources are mine!

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“everything is turning into action action action”

It’s not a trend I’ve seen, but I don’t think anyone can allay your fears. The PC is an open platform – if there is the demand for long-form, complex RPGs, they’ll be made, and released. If there isn’t, well, that’s unfortunate. But it isn’t a conscious decision on anyone’s part. There’s no-one to argue against, here.

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Dante said:
@ Zyrxil

It doesn’t matter when Dragon Age was started, it was released a few months ago and they’re making an expansion pack right now. They’ve released a hardcore RPG and a shooter RPG hybrid, you’d think that would give each camp a game to call their own, but no, it’s just made them slag one off for not being the other.

Of course it matters. What are the game’s contemporaries? Oblivion. Fallout 3. Mass Effect. What “camp” of games is Dragon Age in?

Second, proper positioning and foresight with regards to spells and powers? Well that sounds like ME2 to me. Choosing the power to match if your opponent is armoured, shielded or barriered? Drawing people out of cover by bending a biotic attack around a corner?

You mean those things that aren’t at all necessary even on the highest difficulty? At most you have to deal with some charging Krograns on Tuchanka. They’re there for flavor. You’re still powers by them by spamming them just like any other weapon.

Anyone who plays games with a cover system as ’sit down and shoot when they pop up’ is usualy a) a very dull player and b) a very dead player once they get flanked. Cover shooters are about moving fluidly from one position to another in order to expose a flank.

As I said, you can exaggerate all you want, but the game wasn’t set up for it. Dead. Mindless. Easy.

And lastly, yes there is a difference, in the first instance you get to wail and nash your teeth because your precious RPGs have felt the need to change into something less palatable to you, in the other instance a shooter that was inherently uninteresting has changed into something more palatable.

So, no, you can’t rebut the idea that everything is turning into action action action, and your entire argument is “Too bad”?

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