The Sunday Papers

By Kieron Gillen on April 25th, 2010 at 11:46 am.

The Sunday Papers feels sad that its image is inferior to the newly changing Bargain Bucket one. It continues on manfully.

Sundays are for drumming your fingers until you get your hands on the new Horus Heresy boardgame. Any time now. Any time. Also, compiling a list of the fine (mostly) games related reading from across the week while trying not to link to some pop-music esoterica.

Failed.

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117 Comments »

  1. AndrewC says:

    Are music journalists the cause or just a symptom of the will-to-coin-Sub-sub-subgenre names like Eldritchtronica and Wyrd Bliss, and would killing them stop it happening? I’m not saying we should Kill All Music Journalists, of course, but has anyone done experiments?

    • Daniel Johnston says:

      Don’t suppose you’re going to the secret Evelyn Evelyn gig at Underworld this afternoon?

    • AndrewC says:

      Ha ha, no. I’m going to Bloody Awful Poetry at The Old Queen’s Head, then playing at a birthday party at The Abbey, Kentish Town. You?

      Also, Evelyn Evelyn is NOTHING compared to The Gothic Archies’ ‘Series Of Unfortunate Events’ album!

      Also, should we really be using the RPS comments section like IM chat?

      Also, something about games.

    • HexagonalBolts says:

      The Gothic Archies’ ‘Series Of Unfortunate Events’ album is utterly overshadowed by Ustad Shujaat Khan’s rendition of Raag Bhairavi on youtube.

    • Daniel Johnston says:

      So there’s presumably a subsubgenre to which both Evelyn Evelyn and The Gothic Archies belong? I’m probably staying at home for the day – was going to go to Underworld, but inertia and already having seen Amanda Palmer solo earlier in the week prevailed. Bitter Ruin were interesting. Might help Sarah bake a Guinness cake. By which I mean, eat a Guinness cake.

      Oh yes, and that story-based two player game thing: happy to co-purchase, but only have a netbook at the moment. Assuming it’s playable on that? Have fun at Bloody Awful Poetry.

    • AndrewC says:

      Well Evelyn Evelyn are quite gothic, but also fairly arch.

      Anyway, I asked you a week ago about Sleep Is Death! I ended up giving my second licence to a Belgian! That’ll learn you!

    • matte_k says:

      When I read “eldritchtronica”, I immediately thought it was going to be some kind of Crystal-Method style remix of the Sisters of Mercy. Disappointment!

    • Muzman says:

      In answer to the initial: Yes; Probably not; Be sure and let us know how it goes.

      When you’re finished can I still stick -core at the end of things? Ironically? (possibly making Ironicore)

    • Greg Wild says:

      Ack!

      First democratic western polity.*

    • Jayt says:

      Your not Daniel Johnston of QUT by any chance are you?

    • AndrewC says:

      He’s from Stourbridge.

  2. Auspex says:

    “My initial response was a caustic “why would you ever spend more than 2-minutes MAKING LOVE to someone? You come either way”.”

    Was that really your response Kieron? Really?

  3. Kieron Gillen says:

    I may have been ruder.

    KG

    • Auspex says:

      I was so shocked and appalled at you using a bad word that I un-followed Quinns immediately for triggering such badness.

  4. Phill Cameron says:

    Not that I’m complaining, but it seems to me that all the interesting sciencey news stories always seem to be brought up by Radiolabs, and then in the coming weeks and months get covered by larger and larger publications. I guess that long distance cycling one is just the latest.

    Incredible story though; whoever thought that the pain from exercising was almost entirely psychosomatic? Bodies are CRAZY.

  5. Lambchops says:

    I found it kind of odd that the guy in the rant about music writing railed against “maths” and then reccommended listening to a Pandaro playlist to stumble accross new music. Surely things like Pandora and Last.Fm are the purest distillation of a mathematical approach to finding music, based as they are on user connections and genre in Last.Fm’s case and the heavily statistics reliant ‘Music Genome’ of Pandora. I’m with him on occasionally listening to the radio to find new music but he does seem to be contradicting himself somewhat by mentioning Pandora.

    I agree with him about exclusive tracks and streams though, they are rather pointless and there does seem to be a trend of some sites parading them without actually making any critical comment on the music itself. As I don’t use Twitter i haven’t really come across any more of the “first” type behaviour but it doesn’t really suprise me. it’s just a natural extension of those twats back in the day who uttered arsey phrases like “oh yeah, I liked them from their first EP” in some sort of needless pursuit on one up manship and snobbery. it was annoying then and I can see why it’s equally annoying over the internet.

    • manveruppd says:

      I think he meant “maths” as in “hit counts” and how close to the top of Google’s search results you can get. His argument was that music writers try for the most hits rather than for the most quality critical writing. Pandora is actually a perfect antidote to this, as it’s gonna expose you to a lot of unknown music, and its algorithm is cross-generic ie. it’ll bring up tracks that sound like other tracks you like, regardless of genre boundaries. For instance, if you make a station out of Nothing Else Matters you probably won’t get very many Heavy Metal songs, even though it’s a Metallica number. There are downsides to this, such as when I got a puke-inducing Yannis track in my Baroque chamber music station, but it was a one-time fluke. :p (Last.fm, for the record, doesn’t work like this – it very much depends on genre labels, and lumps together stuff that sounds nothing like each other)

  6. Alex Bakke says:

    Dear lord, that documentary on Sparta is 2 and a half hours long. Fuck schoolwork.

  7. Lewis says:

    The music journalism rant which True links to is fabulous.

  8. Delboy says:

    On the Sunday Times article about kids playing 18 rated games and addiction … it’s obvious that they’ve got their argument horribly wrong – but I think we have to look deeper than “ahh, but it’s up to the parents”.

    Most parents that let their kids play games they shouldn’t – but it isn’t because they went to the shop and thought “ohhh, I bet my 13 year old would love this splatter gorefest of a game” … it’s because the kids go on and on about it and “all the other kids have it, and i’ll be left out”. And the parents then capitulate (wrongly!).

    There must be /something/ in the way games are marketed and the “audience appeal” that means underagers want to play. I look on it like the alcohol / alcopops debate. Yes parents shouldn’t let kids drink it … but there’s also something in how the product is developed and marketed.

    Delboy

    • Lambchops says:

      I think people also forget that young teenagers are resourceful. I can guarantee that my parents never knew I was playing Grand Theft Auto 3 and sliding into a corrupt moral cesspit!

    • ThinkOfTheChildren says:

      You know what I did when my folks wouldn’t let me play an 18 rated game or watch an 18 rated movie? I found someone at school who had managed to get it, and borrowed it from them. It’s a strange concept in these times where borrowing media is next to stealing, but hey, it worked for me.

      You can largely prevent children from buying adult content over the counter, but you can’t stop them acquiring it or viewing it through other means. Particularly with the modern functionality of internet.

      The same goes for anything, alcohol, cigarettes, illegal drugs. The appeal isn’t so much to do with marketing, it’s down to the fact that they know they aren’t supposed to have access to it… which makes it a thrill for them when they do manage to get their grubby paws on some. It’s a badge of honour amongst their mates – something to boast about, but also a way to feel like they aren’t being excluded from the cool shit in society by seemingly arbitrary authorities that they don’t even understand… Any parent knows that if you tell your kid not to do something, they are going to at least want to do it out of some kind of natural curiosity.

      It’s easy for armchair observers to see sensationalised stories in the media and blame the parents or blame the government when things go wrong, but ultimately kids will often find ways to get what they want regardless of what anyone else says or does. No one, not their parents, not their teachers and not a government authority are able to control them 24/7. Breaking free and rebelling against the many powers that govern their lives is something practically every young teenager goes through at some stage… hell, some take it way past their teens too. It’s all part of growing up and testing your boundaries.

      I’m not saying there can be no blame attributed to a child’s parents and guardians in some cases, but we as a society need to remember what it was like when we were younger. We found ways around the system, we raided parent’s liquor cabinets when they were away on holiday and filled the bottles up with tap water to poorly disguise our actions. We bummed a smoke off an older kid down the park. We snuck into someone’s older brother’s room or the back door of a local cinema and watched Arnie mercilessly slaughtering people with an oversized machine gun. We found a bunch of porn stashed in a bush down by the railway and argued over who got to take it home. We paid people to buy us alcopops and smokes and then promptly over consumed them.

      Anyone that thinks a significant amount of young teens don’t get up to this kind of shit is either delusional, or the kids in their lives are just smarter than they are and have avoided being caught out.

      It really was no different “back in the day” no matter how old you are. I’ve heard stories from my father and grandfather that make my worst exploits pale in comparison. The only real differences today are the frequency and manner in which these things are reported, the markedly wider variety of banned substances and media on offer, and the hugely increased number of ways to access them.

    • archonsod says:

      “It really was no different “back in the day” no matter how old you are”

      It was. Back in the day my parents took full responsibility for my upbringing rather than fobbing it off to government or the media. If I got hold of something I shouldn’t my parents found it more effective to simply confiscate said item and give me a clip around the lugs rather than send a strongly worded letter to the Daily Mail. I suspect they may have had a point.

    • AndrewC says:

      ‘Back in the day’ I made it my job in life to get my mum to buy me completely innappropriate things for me for christmas, like Ice-T’s Bodycount album, or membership to the one video shop in the area that I knew would let me rent 18s. Don’t blame my mum: she’s lovely.

    • archonsod says:

      My mother had the sense to ask the store clerk precisely what she was buying for me, and wouldn’t get it if it sounded too “adult”. Though in typical parent logic, while it was perfectly permissible for me to purchase the latest issue of Viz from around the age of thirteen, it wasn’t until I was fifteen I was allowed to get the annual.

    • ThinkOfTheChildren says:

      @ Archonsod: As do many, many parents today. This is my point – the way things are reported today are fundamentally different from years gone by, and the media have people believing the children of today are all violent disrespectful yobs. Any one applying and reason and objectivity surely knows this is a crock of shit?

      Where are the stories about parents working 3 jobs to support their kids and still making time to help them with their homework and drive them to after school clubs? Where are the stories about children being disciplined appropriately for breaking the law or hurting another person? We never get to read these stories because they simply don’t sell – we’d rather read about some arsehole who gets an ASBO and then goes and smashes up someone’s car.

      But that doesn’t mean good parenting doesn’t happen every minute of every hour of every day across the country, because it does. I know dozens and dozens of families today, personally, from all walks of life, who discipline their children and take responsibility for both their well being and their misdeeds.

      There are parents who are not “doing their jobs”, but so it was 20, 30, 40 years ago too. Do you really believe there were no such things as abuse, absence, irresponsibility and neglect before the current generation?

      The fact there are sensationalised stories that we all love to gobble up to give us a reason to get on our soapboxes about Broken Britain doesn’t change reality, and does a real disservice to the millions of kids and parents out there who are doing their best in an age where children are exposed to more varied influences and perceived dangers than any other time in history.

      The picture is not as bleak as it is painted. We’ll never get past our real societal problems until we stop generalising everything with these regurgitated and merciless attitudes. Real life is more complex and deserves far more than that.

  9. Neut says:

    I was wondering if any games writer would pick up on that Sunday Times Magazine article. I could not believe how ridiculously one sided it was when I read it. The blurb on the cover is unbelievable -
    “Ben, 14, is playing Grand Theft Auto IV. What is online addiction doing to kids”. Seriously guys?

  10. Tony M says:

    From the Sunday Times article:

    “His weight has ballooned to 25 stone and his mother brings him meals on a tray.”

    What I take away from this is: Bad parenting can result in messed up kids.

    Imagine as a kid, you’re in your room gaming. Your Mum tells you to come to the dinner table. You say “I’m too busy playing games, bring me my dinner on a tray”. How would your Mum react?

  11. SirKicksalot says:

    The article about the cyclist is amazing!

  12. Greg Wild says:

    I shall watch the Sparta documentary, and offer my thoughts. I have a degree that says my thoughts are relevant!

    • Greg Wild says:

      I have seen this one before infact.

      It is rated 8.5/10 on the accuracy o-metre.

    • Kieron Gillen says:

      Ms Hughes seems VERY EXCITED by the Spartans. And not in an excited way, but an excited way.

      KG

    • Phoibos Delphi says:

      Why is this documentary unavailable to the citizens of my kingdom? This is MADNESS!!!

    • Vague-rant says:

      This is SENILE DEMENTIA!!!!

    • wiper says:

      Not seen it before, but less than a minute in I find myself shaking my head at its assertion that democracy originated in Athens. Curious to see if I’ll last two hours.

    • Chaz says:

      I saw this when it was first on a few months back, and I’d have to agree about her getting rather a bit excited. The impression it left me with after watching it, was that the Spartans were well into nudity and hardcore boy love, oh and they were pretty handy at fighting too.

    • Greg Wild says:

      The Spartans were very into their nudity and boy-love.

      As for the Athens being the original democracy, that’s more a matter of subjective definition of democracy than anything. For the droning masses, it’s easy enough to say that Athens was the first western polity.

    • Greg Wild says:

      Ack!

      First democratic western polity.*

      RAGE. Can’t get my posting right today.*gives up*

    • wiper says:

      Heh, I gave up after forty minutes anyway, as it was telling me nothing new, and irritating me by presenting non-facts as fact (though it did at least clean up the fact we’re only guessing the numbers of the Persian army, it just waited half an hour between saying that the Spartans fended off ’100 times their number’ of troops and admitting it), only to suggest that hoplite is “probably” named after the shield they wore. Presumably peltasts are also only “probably” named after their shields, too.

      The worst thing is, I was never even an ancient history major; I can only imagine how much more irritating I would have found it if it was (or if it had been an equivalent documentary on the ancient novel, say). Stupid TV documentaries

      *grumble, mutter*

    • wiper says:

      Though, reading your comment again (Greg), I’m not sure that’s a valid argument.

      I’d agree that most people haven’t heard of the Greek states that became democracies before Athens, and that Athens was the most significant democracy in terms of political power and so spreading the idea of democracy, but I don’t think anyone can ‘subjectively’ argue that Athens was the first democracy – it’s been a good many years since I studied the development of the Greek city states, and as mentioned above it wasn’t my primary interest, but I’m pretty bloody certain that there were states predating Athens that were inarguably democracies, and indeed that it’s thanks to their influence that the Athenians had their revolution and changed to the system. If I was at home I’d grab a text book to check this out, but sadly they’re in short supply in my studio flat.

    • Kieron Gillen says:

      Wiper: Didn’t she say 40?

      EDIT: I swear she did, because my ears pricked up and I started halfheartedly doing the maths to work out what figures she was using for the Persian army (and what math she was using for the Greek side too)*. 40 was an interesting number in a way that 100 wasn’t, if you see what I mean.

      EDIT2: Care to dig that out? Athens is one of my weaker bits of Greek history, I’ll admit, but I knew jack about other greek city states doing something vaguely recognisable as democracy (as opposed to non-Greek places).

      KG

      *I gave up swiftly as I had a hangover and I couldn’t be bothered.

    • Greg Wild says:

      I tend to rate it highly against other TV Documentaries, which are normally utter tripe. It at least attempted to present the evidence now and then compared with others. Particularly some of the utterly atrocious post-300 shows I’ve seen (I sort of feel this show was a response to that crap). Though I suppose it doesn’t take much to make a better showing than half the rubbish out there.

      Athens is certainly the first recorded and documented democratic polis in any detail. At least the first one of any obvious note. Granted my knowledge of other more minor polis in the 6th/5th centuries is limited at best – I always found the post-Peloponessian War period more interesting, so I couldn’t come up with any other examples of pre-Cleisthenes democracy. My guess is that Athens was possibly the poster-child for a general trend in Greek politics at the time. Part of the problem I guess is that once Athens became a democracy, it quite rigorously set about making everyone else one… so it’s hard to know who was one before, and who was one after.

      The only real example I have any thoughts on, independent for Athens is the Aetolian Confederacy; in it’s infancy throughout the 5th century. I posited in an essay in my 3rd year suggesting the Aetolians had begun forming a confederal democracy, or hoplite oligarchy quite early on. Unfortunatly the evidence is somewhat scant. I mostly pieced my argument together through some dubious use of parts of Thucydides (of course relating to the late 5th century, almost a full century after Cleisthenes.) So it’s quite hard to say.

      On other cities… who knows. Makes me wish I could pull up the Polis centre’s encyclopedia on all the known Polis now to find out :P

    • Greg Wild says:

      Oh, and if we really want to start a debate, I know quite a few people who consider Sparta a form of democracy :D

      I think they’re mad, and seem to think (an increasingly broken throughout) social order (read: proto-communist uniform society) equates to freedom. And they think I’m mad for ignoring Sparta’s rich history of constitutionalism.

    • Kieron Gillen says:

      Greg: Yeah. I was reading around some of that. A proper formal concept of Citizenship is a different thing from Democracy. Though both would make splendid parts of a Civ game.

      (Actually, Civilization that just focused on the greek city states would be a fascinating game. Just each player as a city state, and claiming these techs one at a time, etc.)

      KG

    • wiper says:

      Ah, she probably did say 40 times – I just remembered being bemused that she gave a definite number (and think I misremembered as 100 thanks to the fact that was near the proportion she gave later – estimated Persian forces at 300,000 or so, did she not? My memory for numbers is awful. This may be why I took a humanities subject, then focussed on literature rather than history. All those horrible dates…)

      I do want to dig out some texts to corroborate my arguments, but that really is difficult to do at the moment – being in deepest darkest France away from all my text books/any decent academic libraries, and no longer being an academic = no more access to electronic journals. Plus of course I’m working right at the moment. I could try and dig things up online, but I’m not sure that most online sources would be particularly reliable. If you all can wait a week or so I should be back in the UK, and able to nip down to Swansea and use their library, and/or bug lecturers/students who specialise in the subject. Though I do appreciate that a week to the internet is like a year in real time.

      Anyway, now I /really/ need to prepare my next lesson. And have lunch.

      *checks watch*

      Crap. May have to skip lunch. Never take up teaching, it’s /rubbish/.

    • wiper says:

      Well, I just went against my own advice and used The Internet to help me – or, more precisely, Google Books. And while it’s very slight, on page twelve of Models of Democracy we have a very brief recounting of the Greek poleis and democracy, where it mentions (second new paragraph)
      “It appears that during the mid-sixth century the first ‘democratic’ polity emerged in Chios, though others, all with their own particularities and idiosyncrasies, soon formed. While Athens stands out as the pinnacle of this development, the new political culture became fairly widespread throughout Greek civilization, enfranchising the whole of the free citizenry (cf. Hornblower, 1992, pp. 1-2). It is worth stressing that the emergence of these early democracies did not result from a single set of events; rather, their development was marked by a process of continuous change over many generations.”
      Unfortunately, Google Books cuts off the end, so I cant find out what the reference is to: however, I’d hazard a guess that it’s an article by Simon Hornblower.
      Um, just to make clear, I also didn’t just selectively ignore works until I found one that agreed with me – that was just the first I came across which dealt with the subject.

    • Kieron Gillen says:

      Wiper: Thanks for doing that. Now there’s a name of the state in question, there’s some stuff that turns up elsewhere.

      KG

    • wiper says:

      No worries – it was annoying me too, not being able to remember what I’d “learned” way back when!

      I fear I’m going to be very silent at Game Camp this year, as without references at my fingertips I tend to end up making what sound like sweeping statements made entirely of lipstick; my memory never lets me provide trouser-y evidence off the top of my head. Cicero I am not.

    • Greg Wild says:

      Interesting, wiper. Ancient History degree proven moot once more! Kinda. :D

      Admittedly my specialisation was the murky world of northern Greece, mind. Though this is certainly one of the interesting aspects of ancient history/sociology in Greece. There’s so many polis to study that there’s always going to be one or two that prove your hypothesis about your chosen speciality somewhat incorrect. Unless you’re the likes of Mogens Herman Hansen and have helped study them all in some fashion.

      No wonder I’m doing something totally different for my Masters :D

      On the Game Camp note, I’ll be there too, making all sorts of horrible sweeping statements.

    • wiper says:

      Awesome, we should totally meet up. I’ll be the quiet one with a mop of hair – that totally narrows down the list of potentials, right? ;) Then I can screech on about how my Ancient History and Classical Civilisation MA is /even more/ worthless than whatever you might be studying is! Humanities are /great/.
      Also, if you want a nice closed topic, I suggest researching the ancient Greek romance. Only five of the buggers (plus some fragments) so easy to be an expert ;)
      But yeah, we had the fact that Athens wasn’t the first democracy drilled into us by… a lecturer. I can’t remember which lecturer, and evidently I couldn’t remember who /was/ the first democracy, but I’m sure they’d be happy to know that I retained at least part of what they told us. Model student.

    • Kieron Gillen says:

      Which does make you wonder – why do people who know this (and I’m sure they do) not mention Chios? There’s a reason why they’ve rejected it as a Democracy for their purposes, surely?

      (And I suspect it’d be a self-serving reasons. Certainly the people arguing that Sparta was a democracy seem to have more than a little personal motivation in doing so. It could just be the flip of that – Athens is the first because Athens is the one they’re interested in/care about/etc.)

      I mean, it could be the Ada Lovelace situation? She wasn’t the first programmer – as in, the program she published wasn’t really just her own work – but it’s such an attractive simplification/myth it perpetuates.

      (I mean, my personal take on the myth is to have Ada Lovelace be the first games journalist)

      (Or HG Wells, who totally invented New Games Journalism)

      KG

    • wiper says:

      Well, you’ve got to question how many people /do/ know it. I happened to have had the information thrown at me, but I’m sure a huge amount of academics won’t have, aside from those specialising in the history of Democracy/the early Greek city states, and of those few will get a great deal of limelight. And, well, Athens is a far more attractive state to study – it has far more history*, so we can read a lot more into its culture than the relatively quiet Chians.** Not that the lack of writing in Sparta stops people studying them, but they’re an attractive people to study for their politics and their warfaring.

      There’s also the fact that Athens is the capital of Greece with a massive (and proud) populace, and its status makes for great tourism. Who wants to move that status to little old Chios?

      But yeah, it’s difficult to change a label once it’s stuck – it really requires vocal, fervent – and supported – work to change a popular opinion, even once it’s been disproven. I should know, I’ve defended wrong arguments before and felt like a complete moron when I realised I’d just been toeing an out-of-date line (specifically, I genuinely believed that the ‘self-mutilated Amazons’ imagery was typical of the ancient world, and argued for it, before realising that I’d allowed myself to be misled. Sadly I can’t find the blog on which that argument took place, but it did open my mind to how easy it is to become sure of an incorrect assertion).

      *in the literal, ‘written down stuff’ sense of the word

      **I have no idea if that’s the right word for someone from Chios.

    • Greg Wild says:

      The reasons we have more information about Athens as opposed to the other city states basically boil down to two factors: wealth and power. During the 5th century – when writing really began to take off, bringing into play new genre of writing such as history and drama/comedy particularly – Athens was basically the big dog. Sparta was the land power of it’s time, but that power came at the cost of restricting it’s citizenry to a drab fraternal existence that generally surpressed individual cultural expression. Athens however had managed to coax the island/coastal cities of Greece into a league dedicated to fighting the Persians which it basically manipulated into being it’s own cozy little protection racket of sorts – the Delian League, named after the island the treasury was kept. Handily for Athens, they moved the treasury onto the Acropolis. The result was two fold: Athens became very rich. Athens became very powerful. The economic benefits allowed it’scitizenry to alleviate themselves (well, the top 10% or less) from the bothersome task of tending to their fields to undertake more civilised pursuits. Like writing.

      We’ve certainly got plenty of writing by other non-Athenian authors. Indeed, I spent a great deal of my dissertation digging up more obscure sources. But they’re generally not as well preserved – lacuna abound, and not as revered by Imperial-European period historians- and they’re harder to use, basically. The other writings are generally more aristocratic (though most Athenian authors weren’t terribly enthused by democracy – they were the people who should have been in charge otherwise after all, for the most part) in flavour. I for example spent a lot of time analysing the works of Pindar – a lyric poet whose poems were dedicated to aristocratic athletic competitors. Self-congratulatory nonsense for the most part, but they certainly helped me along.

      The other democracies – earlier than Athens, or not- didn’t really attain the same power or wealth as Athens. I’d basically put their lacking literature output down to that, really. It’s worth pointing out however that democracies by their very nature tend to produce more paper work – or the ancient equivalent. Stele. Generally democracies – or constitutional states in general. We know quite a bit about the Epirote Constitutional Monarchy, or the late-Hellenistic Aetolian confederal moderate oligarchy/democracy simply because it’s very nature required legislation to be clearly displayed. So we can learn alot from there – and indeed, if anyone wants to get anywhere in the study of the ancient world these days you’ve got to hit the stele. We’ve got more or less as far as I think we’re ever going to get reading and re-reading Thucydides these days.

      For the most part, if we’re talking political science, Athens is the first useful extant democracy. The speeches of Aeschines, Demosthenes and their ilk alone attest to that.

      Even if it was part of a general trend of the time.

      Yes! Game camp! Close to the day (getting close though I guess :D) I’ll put up a thread in the forum activating the Beret Horn so we can get some RPS loving on the blend.

    • wiper says:

      We’d best be careful, we’re getting into Tennis for Two/Space War/Pong argument territory here. Does Tennis for Two count even though it has no obvious direct influence on later games, and even though it ran on an oscilloscope?*

      Another element you don’t mention is that a lot of ‘Athenian’ writing came from foreigners who moved to this cultural capital – so the literary output of their poleis is naturally diminished by them having buggered off.

      Though, the power and influence of Athens is the very reason it’s hard to know the significance of the other democratic states – as you say, it’s not as though Athens had a monopoly on writing, but that polis’ output certainly out-survives the rest, which does mean we have a skewed view (especially of places like Sparta – the only people who ever tell us about the Spartans are, well, non-Spartans. And, usually, enemies of Sparta. Actually, another thing in the documentary which bothered me was the certainty with which the presenter told us of their emphasis on love between men – only because I have read a few articles (and at least one book) on Sparta where the writers were careful to point out that the only accounts of such things were, well, from writers of other poleis, who are hardly the most reliable sources. See also people quoting the speeches of Thucydides as if they weren’t all made up by him).

      The best example I can give of the problems of misrepresentation come from a literary perspective, and a different period, but you’ll have to forgive me my specialist area: based on /all/ documentary evidence, there are no ancient novels. No commentators, great thinkers or writers of the ancient world ever mention the form – if we were to base our knowledge of the ancient genres on such evidence we would have to assume that the only extant forms of literature were poetry, theatre, speeches and histories. However, to argue such a thing would be somewhat futile, thanks to the fact that there are actually surviving ancient novels. It’s just that no texts survive that mention them; the only proof that they existed is their continued existence. Hurray!

      *the answer is of course ‘yes it bloody counts!’. In the same way, Chios counts as the first democracy :P

    • Kieron Gillen says:

      Wiper: I’ve written a few fictions which play games with that. As in, making everything we know about the Spartans simply be wrong, in one way or another.

      One thing I understood though – that the people who wrote about Sparta, while enemies, were actually pretty favourably disposed to them – which makes me wonder if the bias would be the other way. As in, *fetishising* them, exaggerating elements of their culture.

      KG

  13. CMaster says:

    That horror article may be the first like it in a while, but it still says the same.
    System Shock 2 did horror the best gaming ever has done, and trying to imitate it won’t make something better.
    Silent hill tops the “paranormal” horror and is genuinely depressing and miserable.

    I think perhaps someone trying to make a new horror game should abandon the tropes of both sci-fi and small town. Maybe a Victorian setting or something.

    • Zwebbie says:

      Where the world is drenched in excessive amounts of light and you are safe only in the shadows, because the bad guys can’t see you there!

    • skalpadda says:

      Um, Thief? Not that it’s drenched in light, but you are hiding from baddies in the shadows.

    • Bret says:

      Or Deus Ex, or Splinter Cell…

    • Ricc says:

      Amnesia: The Dark Descent is set in something similar to Victorian times, if I’m not mistaken. It also looks very promising. The developers’ previous efforts (Penumbra series) mostly adhere very successfully to what the article proposes.

    • Rinox says:

      Realms of the Haunting, lost, in the folds of time, was one to remember as well. Gremlin’s (RIP) masterpiece as far as I’m concerned.

  14. poop says:

    games workshop is making a moderately affordable boardgame? gotta pick it up before it sells out in a week and they STOP SELLING IT FOREVER >:(

  15. CMaster says:

    Oh, and about the Sunday Times Magazine article – the STM main aim is to horrify middle class middle aged people. A few years back, I was reading a very long article in it about how dangerous this “emo” subculture was to your children. Apparently the emo scene was one of extreme sexual liberalism. Whenever 14 year old emo kids get together for a party, they have a massive orgy. “oral sex was given out like kisses” etc etc.

    I’m sure a lot of 14 year old emo kids wish that they regualry attended house orgies. I’m betting that 99% don’t.

    • cliffski says:

      couldnt agree more. Sign me up for the next party…
      Anyway…
      It’s sad because as a middle aged middle class potential sunday timws reader, I know there are a TON fo really bad, really worrying, really serious things wrong in the world that we SHOULD be reading about and are not.
      Reading crap like this about gaming should be at least number 2,000 on the list.

    • Chaz says:

      The problem is that the papers are desperate to keep making money these days, and unfortunately bullshit shock scare stories etc make for better headlines and better headlines sell more papers, more paper sales means they’ll sell more advertsing space, which is how they make the vast majority of their money.

    • DJ Phantoon says:

      Wait, the next orgy party with 14 year olds?!

      CLIFF!!

  16. Powersaurus says:

    I think a more accurate title for the iPhone dev article would be ‘Why Would You Ever Spend More than 2 Weeks Developing an iPhone Game if you want to make any money?’

    It’s a cynical view in the article, but given the price that most iPhone games sell for, and how many units they shift, for most developers, doing any more work than 2 weeks probably doesn’t make any financial sense. There probably are games that have taken longer and have made a profit, but I would guess they are outnumbered by quickly made games.

    • Bassism says:

      That article is basically a summation of everything that is wrong with the iphone gaming scene.

      Features that don’t get mentioned in a two minute review are useless? You’re better to roll a whole bunch of dice? Don’t include things that you think are interesting and good ideas?

      Sure, this approach -might- lead to you maximizing your profit. It also -might- be better if you spent the effort to make a really brilliant game instead.

      Anybody who approaches game development this way is in it for all the wrong reasons.

    • Powersaurus says:

      @Bassism

      I totally agree about the general problems with iPhone games, just looking at it from a company-bottom-line point of view. Teams of people working on iPhone games will always be pretty close to the profit-loss margin. (my experience of this would be with apps, rather than games, but I’m assuming it’s a similar situation)

      I think the ‘don’t include interesting ideas’ should probably have been ‘have a lean and mean design, cut chaff because you’re short on time’.

      Problem with making a really brilliant game is that iPhone is even more mass market than consoles, and it’s a crowded market. I’d be interested to see how much something like Canabalt shifted versus a gameloft Halo/COD clone which is much more easily sold to people looking to buy stuff on a whim.

  17. bill says:

    I found the sunday times article a little ironic considering I was just reading this article from there about how it’s all the fault of scare-mongering scientists: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/dominic_lawson/article7107220.ece

    Weird, considering that most scientists don’t want to talk to mis-representing, over hyping journalists. Made me remember this:
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201001/british-newspapers-make-things

  18. Gassalasca says:

    The Tap Repeatedly piece on fear is awesome… but, erm, it’s over a year old. I was convinced that Kieron linked it it some Sunday Papers last spring… but I guess I must’ve seen it some other place.

  19. Rosti says:

    Any chance of hearing what you make of the Horus Heresy game after taking it out for a spin, KG? Speaking as a biased fanboy, of course.

  20. Hobbes says:

    Jure Robic is fantastic, been following him for a while. Kinda puts other athletes in the shade.

    • EthZee says:

      I liked this:

      …He gestures to Mount Stol, a snowy Goliath crouched 7,300 feet above him, as remote as the moon. “Three years ago, I got angry at the mountain. I climbed it 38 times in two months.”

      This guy is awesome.

  21. dhex says:

    much shorter angry hat guy: “i want better gatekeepers!”

  22. Wulf says:

    I can’t say that anything excites me about 2010 when it comes to MMOs. World of Warcraft is getting werewolves, and as you might all know, I tend to go particularly mad for anything that does. I’ve got three problems with Warcraft, though: it still has a bajillion buttons making it forever inaccessible to me, it’s still the sort of grind-fest that I’ll never have time for, and I think the werewolf ‘look’ is a total abortion of what a decent werewolf could be.
     
    Lion manes and a lack of tails, that alongside a hideous running animation leaves me feeling cold to them (they look like something the undead cobbled together). You almost had me Blizzard, but no cigar, you’ll have to try harder than that. Roll on Guild Wars 2 and the Charr! But that’s 2011. So, nothing in 2010 for me. Well, I might go back and try Champions Online for a bit since I’ve rather missed playing as my mutant werewolf hypnotist thing. He was splendid, and about the only creature in existence that managed make a velvet trenchcoat work for him.
     
    The Doctor Who game looks simply amazing to me, and I’m excited about what they’re doing with it, since their art direction is really there. The ice planet looks absolutely lovely, and overall it looks fairly convincing. I was hyped about it before but after reading that article from start to finish, I’m more excited now than I ever was! I’m even feeling relieved and relaxed in regards to the stealth sections, as BBC have obviously applied a layer of accessibility with their spit-n-polish routine. It might actually be a stealth section that I won’t suck at. Usually the only problem I have with stealth sections is that they require the eyes of a hawk, which sadly I don’t have. I’d recommend everyone read that article, anyway, if nothing else it was lots of fun, especially seeing their reimagining of dalek city.
     
    Moving on to that CVG article, I’m not quite sure how to sum up how I feel, really. I think the article is just as bad as the Times, because it pulls punches. Really, what the Times did is unethical and repugnant, but fighting that doesn’t get to the core of the problem, a problem the article only touched upon with one sentence (a ubiquitous problem that few seem to care about): Shitty parenting. You don’t need to take away the computer, the console, or whatnot, you just need to supervise what the child plays, spend time with them, ensure that they understand what’s happening in the games you do let them play, and keep them socialised with the presence of a parent. Far too many parents these days are dumping their kids in front of a computer or a telly and leaving that to do the baby-sitting for them. Am I being unfair? Maybe. Is there an ideal solution? Probably not. What I do know is that things will only get worse from here as parents have less and less time, due to impatience and jobs.
     
    You can’t really blame magazines or game developers for, what–at the heart of it–is simply bad parenting, and for every one good parent, there are probably ten thousand bad parents, at least that’s how it looks for me, and that explains a lot of the problems we have in society today. A broken home used to be a thing of shame, but these days it’s a commonality. That’s my take on the situation, anyway.
     
    Not too much to say on Civ IV except that I found it fascinating how it portrayed religion as some sort of growing infestation, a nation without religion would soon become infected with it, and it would spread almost virally. Viral agents in the form of missionaries could be dispatched to further bolster the infection rates and provide new vectors of entry. Religion was indeed a virus in Civ IV, at least, and one wonders how well that mirrors our own history.
     
    Not much to say on the feary article, since I don’t like scary games all that much, but I do feel that Dead Space was largely misunderstood. It never occurred to me that it was meant to provide Silent Hill scares, I never thought it was, but what I did get from it is that it was Gordon Freeman in space, with aliens, and had a particularly well written narrative (at least, if you watched the video comics, the movie, played the game, and then managed to pull it all together with the hints and clues they’d left scattered around it did). Exactly what they did with it is brilliant, borderline genius. I care not whether it failed as a horror game because–despite marketing–it was never meant to be, what it was was a bloody good game in its own right.
     
    It’s a shame that so few people actually recognise what made it so great. What I’ll take away from it was the narrative that involved the player on an intellectual level (if they wished to take part), and that it had some of the most amazingly clever and original weapons I’ve ever seen in any game, ever. Not to mention that the aesthetics were fresh and something really a little bit different, and I loved how their space suits were like nothing I’d really seen before, it gave this omnipresent feel of humanity having evolved a little differently to most of the Sci-Fi pap out there, and because of that I actually found it more believable and immersive. It wasn’t that scary, no, but what it was was bloody fantastic.
     
    I completely agree with the article on difficulty, and sometimes you don’t even need difficulty settings to implement difficulty correctly. VVVVVV comes to mind here. You saw that coming, didn’t you? Anyway, the thing I’m getting at is that with VVVVVV the only difference really is the amount of time played, a hardcore player might be able to whiz through the game without using checkpoints, and there are challenges at the end of the game that facilitate some egoboo, but for the casual gamer, there are those wonderful, lovely, and eloquently implemented (I can’t think of a better way to put it) checkpoints. The checkpoints allow someone who’s not a hardcore gamer to try and try at something until they get it right. They’re not punished by lives or continues. The game doesn’t say “You’re shit, so you’re going back to the title screen, or worse, starting the game over!”, it simply lets you take the game at whatever pace works for you. Sometimes only one difficulty setting is needed, if the difficulty actually welcomes all people regardless of their level of skill. And I think that by actually performing such an intricate balancing act Terry Cavanagh should be praised. He created something entirely new, a different way of looking at difficulty, and one that other developers may want to consider with future games.
     
    Other than that, I completely agree with the article about difficulty as it echoes my own thoughts.
     
    The Whispered World… what can I say? You have my most honest, heartfelt recommendation for that game, I can’t express how much I’ve enjoyed playing it, it’s a thing of endless charm and enchantment, and a simply exquisite tale well told (from what I’ve played of it thus far). Yes, it does look like an 80’s cartoon, but it looks like one of the good ones, it feels like that. You know, Mysterious Cities of Gold, the Raccoons, and so on, and it’s very easy to fall in love with the characters. If you ever liked any of those cartoons then I can’t see why it’s a problem, eh? Same goes for whether you ever had a place in your heart for the older Disney films. It’s up to you to decide whether this is for you, but if you loved those things as I did, then this is a welcome return to those times. It’s harmonious and harmless, and something for the kid inside you. It’s groovy, and I dig it. Try the demo and decide for yourself!
     
    I will make one warning, though: Any version of the game that has SecuROM will not work properly, a lot of people picked up the game with SecuROM on it and it simply didn’t work right for any of them (or myself). There are versions with other forms of DRM, including the one that includes Tages released by Deep Silver. Confirmations I can give you: Gamer’s Gate uses SecuROM, Metaboli uses Tages. You could crack the game though. If you’re into using cracks then get it from Gamer’s Gate, save yourself a couple of quid, and then apply the crack. The crack works perfectly. If you’re not into cracking then go for the Metaboli (gamesplanet.com) version. This might be fixed by Gamer’s Gate though… as of yet, I have no further info.
     
    If you’re curious about what the bad DRM does: Some people reported not being able to launch the game, and I experienced stuttering in videos (a half second stutter repeated 20-30 times, before moving onto the next) that made them impossible to watch, animation speeds reduced by 10% with glitches, and some crackling in the game’s spoken dialogue. All of these issues go away with the crack (or with the Tages version).
     
    I would’ve had a similar reaction to that iPhone games article. It’s truly sad how some forget that sometimes–-just sometimes-–there are things that are more important than making a quick buck. And frankly, I’d rather buy games made by people who care about making games than from those just out to make a quick buck. I don’t suppose this matters to the average consumer though, so I can see where they’re coming from if a developer is only doing things for the sake of income and income alone… but I still find that really, truly saddening.
     
    I wonder if Jure Robic is riding Albert Hofmann’s bicycle?
     
    (I had to end the post on that note.)

  23. TCM says:

    The Famitsu thing gives a very interesting insight into the way reviews work, and also reveals that the magazine knows about some of the problems with both extreme rating, and using mostly 6s and 7s.

    Really good and relevant stuff, that, even considering its age.

  24. Lars Westergren says:

    I thought this was a pretty good rant by Jeff Vogel. Don’t know if you have posted about it?

    http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2010/04/how-i-saved-gaming-industry-overnight.html

  25. Frankie The Patrician[PF] says:

    I can’t help myself but read the title of The Sunday Papers with Sean Connery’s accent every single time..how wierd is that?

    • Wulf says:

      I read many things with Sean Connery’s accent.

      That or with the voice of a particularly rambunctious and stereotypical Irishman. It depends on what I’m reading, really.

  26. Rath says:

    Tim Ingham needs to be given a weekly TV show where he can spend an hour or two explaining in a calm and logical manner why vast swathes of the media are cunts, according to whatever shit has transpired during the week. I would watch it.

    Hardly a documentary, and nothing at all to do with Sparta whatsoever, but Spartacus – Blood And Sand. An attempt to do “300 – The Series”, on a lower budget.

    Trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2CqtNeRK_w

  27. Sagan says:

    I had a comment on the Killing the Goose article which I will copy to here.

    Activision’s billion dollar franchises:
    Tony Hawk – dead
    Guitar Hero – dying
    Call of Duty – probably dying
    Blizzard’s franchises – looking good

    The point is, that they are slowly killing of all of their big-money earning games, and have clearly no idea what they are doing. Only Blizzard’s franchises are still looking healthy.
    If you remember, before Guitar Hero, Activision was a mid-sized publisher that had some success with the id games, Raven Software and Tony Hawk. Otherwise they didn’t make many memorable games. Then came Guitar Hero and then came Modern Warfare, and suddenly the company made twice as much money as it did before. Just through those two games. And then they merged with Vivendi Games and now they are the largest publisher.
    But you have to realize, that Activision still hasn’t got a lot of successful stuff outside of Guitar Hero and Call of Duty. And it looks like they have stopped doing anything that will get them new games. So they aren’t looking out for new successes, they are ruining their old successes, how is this supposed to work? Blizzard is strong enough that they can cushion any monetary problems that Activision may or may not get into soon, but I don’t see how the company as a whole will remain this big, unless they change their ways.

  28. Gutfried says:

    Does the Sparta documentary mean more Ares in the pipeline?

    I’d totally buy it.

  29. clive dunn says:

    thinkofthechildren, “We found a bunch of porn stashed in a bush down by the railway and argued over who got to take it home”.
    YOU BASTARD!. GIVE ME MY PORN BACK!

  30. Magic H8 Ball says:

    Wulf said:
    He’s sounding more and more like Derek Smart with each passing day… :(

    Derek is very blunt and his games suck, but he usually knows what he’s talking about. So does this Vogel dude, even though it’s just a variation on age-old “graphics race hurts the industry” argument.

    • Wulf says:

      I won’t deny that. Derek’s name isn’t ironic in the least, but what gets to me in both cases is the vibes of elitism and egotism I get from both. I don’t doubt that they’re very smart people, and I don’t even doubt whether or not they’re worthy of such egotism, but I still don’t like it.

      *shrugs.*

  31. Urthman says:

    That article that is “Shocked! Shocked, I Say!” that the Sunday Times would let 12-year olds play GTA4 is so totally disingenuous.

    Yes, the Sunday Times article is sensationalistic yellow journalism. But to pretend that 12-year-olds in general aren’t playing games like GTA4 and COD:MW2 unless a journalist from the Times sits them down in front of them? That’s just insulting my intelligence. Of course kids are playing these games. Has no one ever heard the X-Box Live chatter in the MW2 multiplayer?

    Am I supposed to imagine that these poor, innocent kids had never seen a violent video game before the irresponsible Sunday Times came along and corrupted them?

    • DMJ says:

      @Urthman: I believe the point of the article is “the Sunday Times says games are more harmful than 18-rated movies, yet they wouldn’t dream of showing a 12-year-old an 18-rated movie, but they don’t think twice about exposing a minor to an 18-rated game because as far as they’re concerned ‘it’s just a game’, thus invalidating their own argument”.

  32. Army_of_None says:

    The cycling article was very interesting! The human mind is phenomenal. The Simon Reynolds is rather nice as well!

  33. Mo says:

    Very chill mix. Cheers.

  34. Desensitized says:

    On the psychotic cyclist: [quote]The craziness is methodical, however, and Robic and his crew know its pattern by heart. Around Day 2 of a typical weeklong race, his speech goes staccato. By Day 3, he is belligerent and sometimes paranoid. His short-term memory vanishes, and he weeps uncontrollably. The last days are marked by hallucinations: bears, wolves and aliens prowl the roadside; asphalt cracks rearrange themselves into coded messages. Occasionally, Robic leaps from his bike to square off with shadowy figures that turn out to be mailboxes. In a 2004 race, he turned to see himself pursued by a howling band of black-bearded men on horseback.[/quote]This sounds like the effects of a stimulant binge or prolonged sleep deprivation. Either he has an unusual metabolism that reacts to endurance racing in the way most people respond to stimulants or he’s using one!

    • Hattered says:

      @Desensitized:
      Sleep deprivation has my vote. From the article: “He is not always the fastest competitor (he often makes up ground by sleeping 90 minutes or less a day), nor does he possess any towering physiological gift.”

  35. Rogue_Outcome says:

    Bettany Hughes is so excitable because she was a shown a sexually traumatic ancient history slideshow during a lesson at school. Most of our generation only saw Nazis: A Warning From History- teachers were funkier in the old days and grooming primarily involved horses.

    Bettany (the Fanny Hill of TV academia) wrote of her initiation: ‘The Snake Goddess’ pneumatic breasts stood bare and proud above her tight bodice and flouncy skirts. A giant snake coiled around her arms and neck. I couldn’t take my eyes off her. This startling pin-up was 3,500 years old. I resolved to find out more about the culture that gave birth to this flagrant sex symbol’.

    Who would have thought that this act of irresponsible teaching some 30 years ago would have contributed directly to the lobotomisation of TV history programming? HISTORY SEXY!

  36. manveruppd says:

    OK, this may be a bit contrary, but I thought Ingham’s rant about the Sunday Times was not just weak but smacked of disingenuousness. Of course I totally agree with him 100% that the article plumbed new depths of inaccuracy, sensationalist scaremongering, and baseless demonisation of gaming (especially shocking for a broadsheet newspaper!), but surely Ingham isn’t REALLY shocked by the pictures of kids playing GTA4? Come on! I’ve seen pictures of people injecting heroin heroin in so-called “lifestyle” magazines! There’s regular and sometimes graphic violence on the evening news on TV every day (remember in particular that clip from a Russian tv station of a man shooting himself in the head at a wedding while playing Russian roulette?), and the recent Haiti earthquake was the cause for countless pictures of dead bodies and disembodied limbs half-buried in wreckage in all sorts of media (online and off), some of which really made me want to curl up under my bed in a faetal position and cry, but Ingham pretends to be shocked by the little chavvy kid mesmerised by a screenful of bright lights? You can’t even see what the kid on the cover’s playing – joke would be on the Sunday Times if it was actually Peggle or Harvest Moon! :)

    Nah, I’m with ThinkOfTheChildren on this one: the scaremongering is baseless and exaggerated. We were all exposed to 18+ media growing up, and only a few of us turned out to be serial killers. Or so I hear. Stop looking at me! >_> I can’t believe that Ingham is really as shocked as he pretends to be from those pictures, and he’s basically perpetuating the lie that gives scaremongerers their ammunition.

    • Thants says:

      So we’re not allowed to criticize anything they do because they’ve done something worse somewhere else? That’s a neat trick they’ve pulled off.

  37. Cinnamon says:

    I also like listening to “To Bring You My Love.” I have this strange daydream where I go back in time to the bronze age and play it to people on my MP3 player to see what they think of it in a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court style. Urr, but perhaps I shouldn’t share that. I also like listening to Doctor’s Orders by Sonic Youth.

    I don’t know what to think about the rant about music criticism. Music critics are often pretty disconnected from the tastes of people they write for no doubt analysing the tastes of consumers and giving them what they want would leave them frustrated. It really is passionless and bleak in a way. Fewer chances for really exciting neural connections to be made.

  38. Jason Moyer says:

    I refuse to acknowledge that PJ kept making music after Rid Of Me.

  39. TeeJay says:

    Re. music criticism (and videogames criticism):
    I haven’t bothered reading reading any music reviews or “analysis” for years – I am introduced to tons of great new music by the DJs on various radio shows (99% on BBC iPlayer) who have selected new releases and older stuff that they like and their ‘recommendation’ comes in the form of actually playing it, plus whatever brief comments they make and/or the occasional interview with musicians or historical background etc.
    For videogames reviews are more useful because it often takes a lot more money, time and effort to “sample” a game and some ‘deal-breakers’ might only become apparent after 10 hours play time or if using certain hardware. Also even though videogame reviews are more useful than music reviews I tend to spend more time reading the “users comments” sections underneath a review and looking out for comments that chime with my own ‘gaming preferences’. This means that it isn’t just a “good quality reviewer” that makes a website useful for me, it is a “good quality community” (ie a good number of informed people with similar tastes to my own). For me a “review” on RPS or Eurogamer is only the *starting* point of a discussion not the end point an the main value of RPS is the ongoing discussion, the plurality of view points and the discussion generated between these. Personally I care less about fancy writing and literary technique and more about hearing from people who are genuine, into their games and can just about string enough sentences together to say what they like and dislike about a game.
    Of course great writing/writers will tend to attract a like-minded community around them, although having a decent readership doesn’t necessarily lead on to good levels of discussion, possibly because of clunky site design, lack of daily traffic to form a critical mass or of persistent profiles/accounts etc.

  40. Muzman says:

    I think you guys broke Tap Repeatedly

  41. Arienette says:

    That cycling one was interesting, I’ve just yesterday completed a cycle across Japan, never went insane.

  42. DanPryce says:

    One of these days I’m going to go through every The Sunday Times and download all the not-pop-recommendations and become ultra hip.

  43. Hurion says:

    Starting an article (about anything other than how to be a huge sunglasses wearing douchebag) with Barnett is a major mistake.

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