By Alec Meer on September 13th, 2010 at 10:06 pm.
So, the chaps at Cynical Brit brought up some of the concerns around the depiction of a female torture victim in The Witcher 2 directly to CD Projekt Red, which led to a surprising revelation. Based on various comments about said torture victim arguably being presented somewhat… lustily, the developers are having a bit of a rethink about that scene.
They don’t want people to be thinking sexy thoughts when presented with a tortured woman, basically – so they’re going to alter how the character in question is presented.
Good on them. Seriously. While there’s been a lot of disagreement as to the appropriateness of the scene, that the devs have acknowledged that at least some people are concerned is testament to how impressive and mature a game they seek to create. And, presumably, that they’re aware that criticism of the use of titillating imagery in situations of suffering does not equate to a universal prudishness on the part of the concerned observer.
The comments are about 14 minutes in to the interview (original here), which also involves interviewer Total Biscuit reading aloud my scathing comments on the scene’s original, heavily-boobed presentation in a way that makes me want to curl up and die from embarrassment. Ow.
Update: here’s the telling quote, as I now realise a number of the more vocal commenters perhaps haven’t listened to the interview. These are words directly from the mouth of the Witcher 2′s senior producer Tom Gop. They are interesting and telling words.
“We wanted to show in a mature way that this woman is being tortured. But it’s true that the way you show it, some of the players will think ‘okay so there’s a naked woman, maybe there will be a sex scene.’
Guys, this was not our intention. We’re gonna have to think about it, redo some graphics or redirect the scene. It’s not about that, let’s make it so players don’t want to have sex with her, they really feel for her.”
So that’s what they say.
I’m comfortable with admitting that basing my comments on my gut reaction to notes to seeing the demo played live on a big screen at GamesCom do seem overstated compared to poring over the shakycam small-screen Youtube clips. If those had been my first exposure (hah!) to the scene, I suspect my eyebrow wouldn’t have raised anywhere near as much.
Again though – excellent to know that CDP want to be sensitive as well as sexy.
13/09/2010 at 22:13 Novotny says:
‘They don’t want people to be thinking sexy thoughts when presented with a suffering woman’
well simply don’t release it in Wales then
14/09/2010 at 03:36 suibhne says:
Win.
14/09/2010 at 18:54 Wulf says:
And if it involves women at all, in any way, shape, or form (positive or negative), and you want to avoid controversy then you shouldn’t release it in England?
14/09/2010 at 21:00 Dhatz says:
and if it revolves around killing or physically damaging living beings using objects and energy you should avoid Hitlerreich and Aussieland.
13/09/2010 at 22:14 Rinox says:
I still don’t agree, but if that’s what they feel is right then they can obviously do it differently.
Maybe they’re still a bit terrified from the playing card backlash?
13/09/2010 at 23:31 Severian says:
i loved the playing cards. and, no, i’m not thirteen years old.
14/09/2010 at 02:54 StingingVelvet says:
I was fine with the cards and I hope to see some sexy scenes in this game, but the image complained about was a little weird because she was made to look really hot and sexy, despite the situation. If they alter it to still show her body, but in a more “she’s been degraded and we pity her” way, I would support it.
Still not as big of a deal as RPS made it out to be though.
14/09/2010 at 09:28 tunnel says:
I found the images within the cards to be a very good way to depict the sex scene and its uniqueness, much better than the usual awkward cinematic. They left the bulk of the job to the imagination after presenting a vivid, memorable image rather than a muddled, saccharine and painfully safe “sexy” sequence.
If they had presented those images in non-card form they might have received more praise.
13/09/2010 at 22:14 Mil says:
And so Anglo journos manage to have their cultural rejection of sex (at least sex containing females) constrain the creativity of an Eastern European dev. Yeah, excellent, a bit less of cultural diversity in games. Good job.
13/09/2010 at 22:23 ReV_VAdAUL says:
It’ll certainly be interesting what RPS has to say when it is suggested games should be censored in some they don’t approve of. I imagine there wont be as much glowing praise then.
13/09/2010 at 22:23 Celkiasian says:
“at least sex containing females” Hmmmmmmmmmmm
13/09/2010 at 22:24 kael13 says:
Really? Your culture finds gratuitous nudity appealing when the subject is under genuine duress? It would’t work in a serious film, it wouldn’t work here.
13/09/2010 at 22:27 Celkiasian says:
@ReV_VAdAUL Checkmate RPS, Checkmate.
13/09/2010 at 22:33 Mil says:
“at least sex containing females” Hmmmmmmmmmmm
I realise that this part of my comment could be construed as homophobic, which is not my intention. But I do believe that it’s the presence of sexy females that makes RPS (or part of it) complain.
13/09/2010 at 22:37 Frank says:
Mil: I think you mean “specific rejection of an attitude to sex so juvenile that it struggles not to depict female torture victims in a titillating way”. Plus, it’s not a constraint to creativity when you merely point something out, and then the developer comes to their own conclusion that it isn’t what they were trying to say with the scene.
I know it makes it easier to condemn things when they’re translated into the most absurd terms, but nothing you said there had any basis in fact.
13/09/2010 at 22:45 Heliosicle says:
Its all about context Mil, I don’t think RPS has a problem with nudity, I think Alec’s point was the context of the situation, so having a pornstar type woman there destroyed the atmosphere CDPR are going for.
13/09/2010 at 22:50 Tetragrammaton says:
This has been discussed several times here on RPS, It would seem that people still don’t understand the argument. Its not an argument for prudishness, Its an argument for well though out context. There’s nothing wrong with nudity and sexual content in videogames, as long as it doesn’t negate context. You wouldn’t sexualise victims of torture in Schindlers list, for example.
13/09/2010 at 22:52 Easydog says:
That’s more articulate than I could manage, Frank. but yeah, I agree. It’s not censorship if the creator of the work alters it so the point of the scene is clearer and less muddied by contrasting aesthetics.
13/09/2010 at 22:53 Veret says:
“…criticism of the use of titillating imagery in situations of suffering does not equate to a universal prudishness on the part of the concerned observer. ”
Reading the comments here, it sounds like that sentence was inserted into the post after most of you guys read it. Or one of us is missing something.
13/09/2010 at 23:38 Urthman says:
a bit less of cultural diversity in games
Maybe someday gaming will be diverse enough to include titillating images of women.
14/09/2010 at 00:44 Dean says:
The problem is, it’s impossible to include female nudity in a video game without it being sexualised, because (short of a few autopsy/dead body scenes) I don’t think it’s ever been done has it? Has female nudity ever been presented in a video game in a non-sexual way. I didn’t think that video was half as gratuitous as Alec did.
14/09/2010 at 01:03 Heliocentric says:
@Dean hostile waters, scenes of cabal meeting their invention.
Not actually quite dead, but being killed dictators, male and female.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKjfPeJwqPg&feature=related
14/09/2010 at 01:43 Nick says:
Uh, I don’t think they care much about all the other nudity, just the sexual objectification of a torture victim. If you honestly don’t understand that, then I feel sorry for you.
14/09/2010 at 03:40 TeeJay says:
@Tetragrammaton: “You wouldn’t sexualise victims of torture in Schindlers list, for example”
Some people have made whole movies out of it, eg The Night Porter (1974) starring Dirk Bogarde and Charlotte Rampling.
14/09/2010 at 06:37 Snall says:
@Kael13
It wouldn’t work in a serious film? Are you on crack or have you not watched many movies? Just lately the friggin Girl with the Dragon Tattoo for god sakes…it happens all the time in film. The problem is that this is a VIDEO GAME, not that it’s not done. *shrug* Eventually people will allow the same license for video games as they do for film…but not for at least another 10 years or so..
14/09/2010 at 07:29 Tei says:
Is pointless to create un-sexed games.
I invoque the rule 34.
14/09/2010 at 08:24 Lukasz says:
In Shindler’s list there was a scene of naked women. Was it also sexualized? Since it was a movie some of them were quite pretty.
Was it wrong of director to have that scene?
14/09/2010 at 09:49 Alexander Norris says:
@Snall — a “torture victime” with oiled, bouncing DD breasts isn’t effectively imposing the severity of torture on people whichever way you cut it. Complaining about this is what’s called “criticism,” and it’s usually considered a good thing – except, apparently, about people who like video games.
The amount of anti-intellectualism masquerading as supposed anti-prudishness here is pretty fucking incredible.
14/09/2010 at 10:59 Mac says:
They weren’t oiled, bouncing DD breasts, they were very normal breasts if you actually saw the footage, RPS on the other hand made some ridiculous depiction where you could practically see them fellating over it at the same time as trying to appear superior to it. It was a really stupid 2 paragraph long masturbation session, nothing at all what was depicted in the game. It actually seems to be anti-intellectualism masquerading as pro-prudishness.
14/09/2010 at 11:25 DAdvocate says:
@Mac To be fair to Alec, he was commenting on a video which he had only seen once while amongst a crowd at E3 for which he was primed to expect a degree of sexual objectification due to the sex cards of the first game. Therefore his eyes were fixated on the exposed breasts of the torture victim over any other consideration and were seen as titillation rather than exhibiting a sense of vulnerability and realism which was the original intention (in my opinion).
However some of the commenter’s richly deserve your ire with their clear inability to separate nudity from sexuality, for which I feel profound pity. I would suggest they try to expand their exposure to foreign films.
14/09/2010 at 11:33 Kadayi says:
The sexual hang ups are beginning to get in the way of the (good) Journalism it has to be said.
14/09/2010 at 16:33 manveruppd says:
I think this is a seriously inane discussion, but since so many people are thinking about it so very hard I might as well pitch in with a slightly less outraged point of view: portraying a torture victim as sexualised is something that’s been part of pop culture for ages. Conan has rescued dozens of scantily-clad sacrificial victims off the altars of Set (wonder what that massive snake coiling around the victims’ naked thighs as the evil priest raises the knife is supposed to symbolize…), Giger’s artwork is full of naked women looking like they’re not really enjoying all those metal appendages penetrating their skulls, and if people found The Witcher shocking then a quick flick through Heavy Metal Magazine will give them a stroke.
Now, you can call this immature, unsophisticated, or whatever, but I think your violent recoiling from such things says more about your mental and emotional blockages on the subject of sex than it does for the supposed morality of the portrayal in question. These portrayals might be rather crude and generic, but they do have something to say about human sexuality, even if they don’t say it in a very thoughtful manner. It says that our sexuality is complex and ambivalent and rather perverse. How else can you explain that in some portrayals the victim seems to be aroused by the torture and sexual degradation she’s undergoing, but is nevertheless grateful to the hero for being rescued? What does it say that, even though the portrayal is nearly always intended to titillate the reader, it also manages to make the leering, sadistic torturer (who is not always a man) seem all the more evil? Why do many women in real life really do have rape fantasies, when in fact we know they would certainly not get aroused if they were put in a similar situaiton (and they certainly wouldn’t be feeling up for showing their gratitude to their rescuer by providing sexual favours – they’d probably just want to huddle up in a corner and cry and recoil at anyone’s touch!)?
Certainly the prudishness displayed towards The Witcher (and it is prudishness, even if it’s disguised as intellectual snobbery) is hindering people from understanding the nuances of even such a simple and unsophisticated portrayal as this.
14/09/2010 at 18:50 Wulf says:
Hmm…
I’m against torture in its entirety, same goes for suffering, and people do need to understand why suffering is bad. A virtual realm is a good way to teach, so I’m glad that the scene is still in there, and I hope it can still provoke outrage.
As for the original scene, was the woman oversexed? Iono, I haven’t seen it, sounds like it though, especially the way Nick describes it.
Here’s an interesting thought: What if it had been a man? I wonder if it had been a bloke with bulging muscles, seemingly oiled, with a decidedly big package, would the outcry have been the same? I’ve batted for both teams in this sort of argument, and that’s precisely what I’m doing here, since I’m not sure I fully understand the situation.
I think the outcry against suffering and torture is a noble thing as far as reality goes, so I’m glad that the scene will remain there to perhaps teach gamers a thing or two, but I wonder how much sensibilities were stepped upon just because it was a woman being portrayed? If, as Nick says, it was pretty much a woman with DD breasts, all oiled up, and designed to look alluring, then I can understand why people think that the images were contrasting, and took away from the message that torture is bad. Interesting question though is whether people would have even noticed if it were a man?
Is torture worse if there’s a woman involved?
I have no answers, really. Only questions. Lots and lots of questions.
13/09/2010 at 22:15 Freud says:
As long as we can pollinate Dryads, I’m happy.
13/09/2010 at 22:19 Solivagant says:
Good on you and on them, mate. When I read your original article, I thought maybe it was an overreaction, but when I saw the videos of the demo they did, the nudity did seem a bit too much. More distracting than lustful, though.
13/09/2010 at 22:24 Rich says:
The Witcher has always struck me as very juvenile, with regards to sex. If the next one can’t actually be well written, it might as well show some restraint.
But hey, boobies!
13/09/2010 at 22:49 Zwebbie says:
Rich: I thought Geralt being juvenile was actually a nicely realistic touch. It’s not as if he has many other flaws.
13/09/2010 at 23:48 Severian says:
Yes, I enjoyed how people would mention offhand witchers’ reputations with women (wink-wink, nod-nod) throughout the game. Sexuality gives fantasy worlds an additional layer of depth that they typically lack.
Which is not to say that most witchers’ behavior seems to be sexist.
Question: do the female witchers also have a negative reputation?
13/09/2010 at 23:55 jeremypeel says:
@Zwebbie: I don’t think anyone would have had a problem with Geralt being juvenile if the game made any attempt to show that it was self-aware in that respect. The problem many people had was that elements of the game seemed to back up his opinions.
14/09/2010 at 00:01 jeremypeel says:
Oh, but just to clarify, I’m really kinda glad to see my RPG protagonist have some discernable flaws too (as we kinda discussed in the Sunday Papers). I’m trusting CD Projekt Red to get the balance right this time. ‘Cos, y’know, they’re actually really good.
14/09/2010 at 00:53 Zwebbie says:
@jeremypeel: as Severian said, several references are made to Witchers being unusually promiscuous, by passersby and also by the women Geralt sleeps with. Somehow, people can make violence fun without being thought of as violent, but CD Projekt can’t portray someone as juvenile without being considered juvenile themselves (and Geralt bashes more than he bangs, so to speak). They tried to make fighting fun, but nobody’s claiming that they think violence is the way to end all problems, even if that is what you’d think from looking purely at game mechanics.
14/09/2010 at 01:56 Raum says:
Is being promiscuous analogous with being juvenile?
Not that I have an opinion either way about this, as I never actually played the first game (it’s on my to-do list, relax); I do wonder what it is that actually makes the sexual content in the game(s) juvenile, though.
14/09/2010 at 02:03 Vinraith says:
I think it’s interesting that having the option to play a promiscuous character makes the game’s protagonist “juvenile.” Personally I played Geralt as a monogamist and quite enjoyed the game. It’s not like there any “reward” for being a man-slut, let alone any requirement. If you don’t want the character to be promiscuous, don’t play him that way. If you play him that way, whose fault is that?
Oh, and the cards are vastly preferrable to Bioware’s incredibly awkward animated sex scenes. Talk about juvenile.
@Severian
Question: do the female witchers also have a negative reputation?
I have a dim recollection that the process that creates Witchers only works on males. Can anyone else confirm or deny that?
14/09/2010 at 07:48 tomhet says:
@Vinraith
Correct, those potions that witchers use make female hormones go crazy, so there are no female witchers.
14/09/2010 at 10:30 Archonsod says:
Expecting maturity from a game like the Witcher is something of a fool’s errand in the first place. Pretty sure the books ripped off Elric, and it’s not like that was a fantastically mature source in the first place. Though the LSD influence tended to improve it somewhat.
13/09/2010 at 22:31 Patrick says:
What about people like me, who delight in sexual torture? Don’t we have a say in this?
SPEAK, SLAVE
13/09/2010 at 22:37 faem,pr says:
I surely want to be able to ‘be thinking sexy thoughts when presented with a tortured woman’ even if I don’t (and I surely will!!)
Couldn’t understand the retardedness back then, still can’t understand it right now. Gimme back my immaturity. People ARE immature.
and probably in the game too
13/09/2010 at 22:35 Jimbo says:
The scene was as titillating as the viewer wanted it to be. I didn’t get that from it at all.
The camera direction already makes no big deal about her nudity, so how do we ‘fix’ that scene for you exactly? Give her ‘worse’ tits? Slap the shit out of her before Geralt arrives to rescue her?
13/09/2010 at 22:51 Lilliput King says:
“Slap the shit out of her before Geralt arrives to rescue her?”
It’s going to sound slightly ludicrous, but this. The scene lent itself to titillation only because it wished to. There was nothing wrong with the bare breasts. Indeed, in the situation, it made sense. But bare breasts and guards standing around politely, trying not to ogle? Bare breasts but not a hair out of place on a finely manicured head?
Either Geralt gets there before the abuse takes place or after, because we can clearly see that he doesn’t arrive mid-abuse. If before, she wouldn’t be undressed. If after, her pristine presentation is a trivialisation of rape in order to make her character more appealing.
13/09/2010 at 22:53 TotalBiscuit says:
For all the mistakes Dragon Age made in terms of dealing with sexuality, it managed to deal with the elven rape thing fairly well. It’s supposed to be harrowing and it should trigger an emotional response as opposed to one in your crotch
13/09/2010 at 23:04 Jimbo says:
Her top is pulled open, the torturer is heating his metal pokey thing preparing to torture her in order to get her to sign something, Geralt arrives before any torture has taken place. It’s basically the scene at the end of Braveheart where they rip Wallace’s shirt open before tortuting him, except, you know, she happens to have tits. No rape is hinted at during any part of the scene.
The camera never focuses on her breasts and as soon as her arms are free she immediately covers herself with them. Her back is scarred and her hair is unkempt.
13/09/2010 at 23:20 The Hammer says:
Eh. The “elven rape scene” was like the circus coming to town. I sat and stared all through the city-elf origin story at how badly scripted, acted, and animated the whole thing was. It was -awful-. Making it tickle the balls would have been the last straw.
14/09/2010 at 03:18 Sonic Goo says:
I thought the exposed breasts were pretty logical, considering the situation. Now, why mr. hero guy would storm in there without wearing a shirt…. (btw anyone complained about that yet?… thought so).
14/09/2010 at 03:44 drewski says:
If I had Geralt’s abs, I’d never wear a shirt at all.
13/09/2010 at 22:35 Nova says:
After watching the particular scene I also think you overreacted a bit. I don’t know if CD placed her there to show boobies but I didn’t find it unsuitable for a medieval dungeon and especially the Witcher world. I recommend the books.
13/09/2010 at 22:35 Ricc says:
I think the whole scene was meant to be more shocking than lustful, the nudity being forced on her and part of (or in concert with) the torture. I agree however, that it might be seen as gratuitous *after* Geralt freed her and we are in a dialogue tree.
13/09/2010 at 22:36 TotalBiscuit says:
Thanks for the link Alec,
It’s always good to hear that developers are willing to take well written criticism as it’s intended, because the critic cares about the product and wants it to be better. CD Projekt have my complete respect for actually doing that, it’s obvious they care a great deal about PC gaming as a whole and are one of those companies that deserves support for that.
13/09/2010 at 22:36 patricij says:
Reminds me of this:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/09/12/international_censorship/
I, for one, like the way The Witcher is open about sexuality…
To paraphrase – “We live in strange times – the naked blade of a knife is found much less obscene than the naked breast of a woman.” – I think it was in one of the short stories set in Callahan’s Crosstime Saloon by Spider Robinson
-Frankie The Patrician[PF]
13/09/2010 at 22:37 The Colonel says:
Wow. The Witcher seems to have really divided opinion on its presentation of sex.
This interview is a really positive sign that the developers aren’t above taking some criticism and addressing mature issues. Hopefully this will be even better than the first.
13/09/2010 at 22:38 MaXimillion says:
Had no issue with the nudity in the scene, but rather with how the woman really didn’t look like she’d been imprisoned and/or tortured. Hopefully they’ll also work on that aspect.
13/09/2010 at 22:41 TotalBiscuit says:
By the sounds of it, that’s exactly what they’re going to do. They made no indication that they’re cutting down the amount of nudity and sexuality in the game, only that they’re presenting it in a less blatant manner. Gaming has certainly been held back because of it’s inability to present sexual content as anything more than fapping material for loners. Collectible sex cards don’t make a mature title. His point about Heavy Rain was extremely valid in that regard, despite the problems that game had in other areas.
13/09/2010 at 22:41 Vandelay says:
As I really enjoyed the original The Witcher and wanted to go into the new one mostly blind, I didn’t watch the demo video, so can’t really comment on my own reactions to the moment. From what I read about it on here and in the comments when it was first posted, it sounded as if they made quite the misstep in the portrayal of the sequence. Creating a rape sequence in a game that contains any form of titillation for the player seems really out of place. It is one thing when we are talking pornography and another when a sequence is attempting to show someone in genuine distress.
I just hope that the developers realised they made a mistake, rather then just giving into pressure.
13/09/2010 at 22:51 Jimbo says:
You must have missed all of the comments that disagreed with Alec’s assessment of the scene. There’s no suggestion that it’s a ‘rape sequence’ for a start. Maybe you should be prepared to watch it before passing judgement.
If the result of this is that they just cover her up, that would be just about the most pathetic thing ever.
13/09/2010 at 23:09 Zenicetus says:
Yeah, watch the video and form your own opinion (there are no spoilers for the game).
I thought it was much less offensive than was made out by the RPS comment, but it still felt a bit gratuitous to me… like just another throw-away opportunity to show some T&A (minus the A) instead of being essential to the plot.
If CDP makes a decision to ramp down the use of nudity at *every* possible opportunity in the game, so we can actually hear more abut the game play in previews and reviews, then I’m all for it. Way too much online argument and discussion about the last game revolved around those stupid sex cards. The game was much better than I expected, based on early hype about those cards and the way sex was treated in the game.
13/09/2010 at 23:32 Vandelay says:
“Maybe you should be prepared to watch it before passing judgement.”
To be honest, when I said “so can’t really comment on my own reactions to the moment,” I was kind of implying people can pretty much ignore my remarks. Don’t worry, I’m not the kind of person to pass judgement on something because of what someone else says. I didn’t watch the video because I’m going to buy The Witcher 2 pretty much no matter what, as I enjoyed the original a lot. I do hope they improve the presentation of sex, but it is such a small aspect of the game, I can’t see it really effecting my enjoyment too much if they do not.
14/09/2010 at 12:15 Kadayi says:
‘I didn’t watch the demo video, so can’t really comment’
Watch it, then come back with your own opinion rather than shirt tailing off what you’ve heard.
13/09/2010 at 22:43 Kid A says:
Well, with the removal of one of many pair of boobs from this game, I can no longer consider purchasing this game, as I only play mature games for mature gamers such as myself.
No, but seriously, anyone complaining about 1 pair of tits being covered up, in a game and series infamous for containing MANY PAIRS OF MAMMARIES, are just looking for something to argue about.
13/09/2010 at 22:58 Rich says:
So tits in a scene of consenting adults having a groovy time, or indeed just two consenting adults getting a bit nasty, are no different from tits on a girl getting beaten and raped?
13/09/2010 at 23:12 Kid A says:
Hi, please turn your sarcasm meter on.
The prevailing argument from many of the people slagging off RPS for this is that “it’s just a naked scene” and that prudishness is leading to this scene being altered/removed. The point I was trying to make is that complaining about the removal of one ill-judged scene as being down to prudishness or censorship is bloody stupid.
13/09/2010 at 23:26 Jimbo says:
It’s not really censorship, it’s just pandering. Because of the issues with how The Witcher portrayed sex, people will go out of their way to find similar issues with The Witcher 2. The devs now need to overcompensate to allow for this.
The only way they’re going to win here isn’t by handling sex & nudity well, it’s by not handling it at all. If there is sex or nudity in this game, they are going to get pulled up on it, as we have seen here.
14/09/2010 at 08:56 Rich says:
Kid A: I retract my comment. I got the sarcasm, buy misinterpreted the bit after “No, but seriously…”.
Jimbo: Others have written far better arguments, as to why you’re wrong, than I care to now.
13/09/2010 at 22:46 Bureaucrat says:
I objected to the titilating material in the midst of suffering in the original. The suffering in this case was “me playing The Witcher.”
(Although most of my reservations about the game were mostly gameplay- and character-based, the misogyny did bother me. Not so much that it show boobies, but in that every single female character in the game– with the exception of a few crones– was presented as a target for sexual conquest. That’s more than a little bit creepy.)
13/09/2010 at 22:52 TotalBiscuit says:
Sounds like an average night out at Uni to me.
13/09/2010 at 23:00 ScubaMonster says:
I posted about this below, but I agree. I have no problems with nudity in a game, but in the Witcher it was a contrived mini-game of sorts that added absolutely nothing of value to the narrative. Basically, it was nothing more than “Omg this game has boobies!” This is an example of why people don’t view video games as art or being for mature adults.
13/09/2010 at 23:14 Freud says:
I think the main reason the whole sex thing came off as dorky and juvenile in the first game is because they made so many good design decisions otherwise.
And I know the original books have it too but the game creators have the choice to accentuate it or tone it down. They choose the former and it was just awkward.
13/09/2010 at 22:55 John says:
That scene would have resulted in the game being banned in Australia. Still might be depending on other depictions of sex.
13/09/2010 at 22:57 Hippo says:
Fuck it. Thanks for that, british press.
13/09/2010 at 22:58 ScubaMonster says:
I enjoyed the Witcher. I thought the collectible cards for banging chicks was completely ridiculous however. I have no problems with nudity, but this was a poor implementation. It adds nothing to the narrative and pretty much serves as nothing else other than “Omg Boobies!”
14/09/2010 at 08:07 Red Avatar says:
The cards didn’t bother me at all – it was an OPTION folks. The option was clearly marked IIRC as well. I think the UK and US are very prudish compared to many other countries – France, Belgium, Netherlands, the Scandinavian countries, Spain, Italy and many Eastern European countries wouldn’t even blink. We’ve had nudity in movies since the 60′s – some gratuitous, some not – BOTH for male and female.
14/09/2010 at 10:53 Archonsod says:
The problem is not the content of the cards, it’s the mechanic. In an otherwise well designed game, it sticks out like a sore thumb. Almost as if someone decided that since everyone else has these item collecting mini-games in their game they best stick one in too. Personally, I couldn’t give a damn if they included hardcore porn scenes instead of those cards, just as long as they did it in some way that fit the rest of the game and didn’t feel like it’s inclusion was solely to attract a certain segment of the market.
13/09/2010 at 23:05 Pandaemonius says:
I don’t think this is a censorship issue, people. They are not censoring the game. They are altering one scene, of their own accord, after people have pointed out that it is incongruous and degrading.
I’m pretty sure what happened was: they had this scene of a tortured woman in the design. So they stuck their standard female model in there nude. Because a tortured and raped woman trapped in a dungeon wouldn’t be clothed. However, the standard model is pristine, busty and glistening – they didn’t think to especially mark this woman as haggard and defeated.
If they change it right, she’ll still be naked. She just won’t look like a porn star in a bondage film. Instead, she’ll be filthy, bruised and emaciated.
13/09/2010 at 23:23 Deuteronomy says:
Guess what, the period of time in the real world the game mirrors ie the middle ages) was in fact degrading to women. The scene was unrealistic only in how clean and untouched she looked. Geralt’s reaction and modesty in the situation was a great counterpoint to the viewer’s own automatic lecherous instincts. I thought it was a great scene with a lot of humanity.
14/09/2010 at 02:23 Pandaemonius says:
Deuteronomy: I think you’ll find we agree. I was pointing out that it was only the clean and healthy look of the woman that should be changed. I see it as a glaring error which sends a mixed signal, rather than smut that must be erased.
14/09/2010 at 11:37 Guildenstern says:
@Deuteronomy: Same excuse was made by people who made FATAL.
13/09/2010 at 23:06 Zanchito says:
**** that. The witcher is a womanizer in the books, just as he is in the game. Not for prudes, but I thought we were over the “playing videogames makes you copy their values and destroy western (protestant) civilization”. I also find it EXTREMELY distrssing the notion that people take offend at the nudity, not the violence. Last time I checked, titties didn’t kill people.
**** twisted moral values. The scene is in poor taste, but so what? I see bad taste all the time in TV.
13/09/2010 at 23:08 TotalBiscuit says:
This is not what Alec originally said at all. He found the way the scene was presented inappropriate because it did not evoke the kind of emotions it should have, due to incorrect presentation. This isn’t censorship, it’s storytelling.
13/09/2010 at 23:08 Zanchito says:
And sorry about the grammar and spelling, when such god damnes idiotic political correctness issues come up, they make me st… HULK SMASH!!!!!
13/09/2010 at 23:09 Zanchito says:
Oh, golly, sorry about the posting sequence. I’m not talking about what Alec said, I’m talking about what I think.
Also, maybe the scene DID evoke the intended feelings *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*
13/09/2010 at 23:13 TotalBiscuit says:
As an addendum. I’m talking about inappropriate in the same way that Dragon Age’s sex scenes were inappropriate. The sex scenes in Dragon Age were supposed to be erotic in some way and to a degree, show an emotional connection between the characters, depending on who you went with, instead they were laughable. They were censored for no reason at all, presented in a completely awkward manner and as such, broke any immersion one might have had at that time.
In this case, it’s the other side of the same coin. This scene was supposed to evoke sympathy, some disgust and maybe even a little bit of anger, yet it was needlessly erotic and didn’t make any sense at all in the context of the story. Nudity in that scene? Yes. Pixel-perfect, completely clean, not a hair out of place, buxom beauty? No. Keep the sex scenes sexy and the torture scenes harrowing.
13/09/2010 at 23:48 Urthman says:
The witcher is a womanizer in the books
I have no real problem with a character who wants to sleep with every woman he meets (other than probably finding such a lout tiresome unless the writing is exceptionally good).
But if the main character is able to sleep with any woman he wants, that’s just stupid. It’s saying, “In our world, all the women actually are the playthings that assholes like our main character wish they were.” It’s sexist, but even worse, it’s bad storytelling and bad characterization.
14/09/2010 at 00:52 Dean says:
All it really needed was one woman that Geralt wanted that he couldn’t have. That’s all really. He’s a Witcher, which in the fiction of the game, makes him the equivalent of a rock star. He can’t have any girl he wants, but he can have a sizeable proportion of them. But if you don’t show even one girl that doesn’t want to jump in bed with him then it becomes silly.
14/09/2010 at 02:03 Starky says:
@Urthman
“It’s saying, “In our world, all the women actually are the playthings that assholes like our main character wish they were.”
They are… Oh maybe not to you or me, or anyone who would ever post on this board – but to rock stars, pop stars, movie stars and the mega rich, women ARE playthings – they do get to bang almost whatever women they wish to sleep with.
Hell even minor celebrities get sex offers thrown at them – of which you can read about daily in any tabloid rag should you choose.
And Geralt, as a Witcher is clearly the AAA celebrity of his world – he saves lives, kills monsters, does what he please and takes whatever he wants when he wants…
Most of the women he sleeps with are clearly the kind of woman that would be groupies, or glamour model kiss and tellers (or sellers) in real life.
14/09/2010 at 02:06 Starky says:
Bleh I really should read the whole reply list before replying myself – given I’ve just repeated exactly what Dean said…
Oh well.
14/09/2010 at 10:57 Archonsod says:
S’funny, cuz all the way through the game I kept reading about how Witchers were reviled and shunned, rather than popular and liked.
14/09/2010 at 16:32 Urthman says:
They are…to rock stars, pop stars, movie stars and the mega rich, women ARE playthings – they do get to bang almost whatever women they wish to sleep with.
No. I can’t believe you really think that’s true. Sure there are lots of women willing to sleep with such men, but the idea that most women are like that or that a pop star can have have any woman he wants is ridiculous.
Most of the women he sleeps with are clearly the kind of woman that would be groupies…in real life.
A game in which the only attractive women the protagonist happens to meet are the groupie type is bad storytelling.
13/09/2010 at 23:09 MountainShouter says:
Nudity’s fine if it adds to the world, and isn’t simply thrown in for s**ts and giggles.
That said, it fit the situation perfectly fine, but when she doesn’t *immediately* cover herself up post-rescue by Geralt, people start complaining about it?
15/09/2010 at 09:30 Hmm-Hmm. says:
Yeah, I found that rather odd, as well. I first read the blog post then watched the video, but I really couldn’t discern any (blatantly) tasteless nudity meant to arouse rather than to just serve to show the woman had just been about to be tortured.
13/09/2010 at 23:14 Langman says:
I’m between two stools on this one – it was a bit silly of them to be that free with nudity in that scene, so I won’t miss it not being there….but they *are* censoring their product based on feedback, which never feels right to me in any medium.
13/09/2010 at 23:20 toni says:
i would not say that they will censor it. if their intention was not to show boobs but present a plausible torture situation where the victim has been uncovered then rethinking that scene is no censorship. I applaud them and can’t see that as “fear of any backlash”. We’ll see later if/how it changed.
13/09/2010 at 23:21 kulak says:
Any time a creator changes their original vision due to fear of offending instead of their own vision and conscience isn’t a good thing for the artform.
Whether CDprojekt actually reconsidered the appropriateness of the scene, or whether they just caving to outside pressure we don’t know.
The fact that this was seen as “too much” makes me think its more to do with prudishness than genuine sensitivity.
A sexualized depiction of a gender in any artform is not neccesarily a bad thing, or sexist and lacking in nuance.
The problem with the state of gamings depiction of women is the scale and ubiquitousness of a mindless and overly sexualized depiction.
Whether a sexualized torture scene was a daring attempt to challenge the players own perceptions, or simply a cheap trick, or even a simple mistake, all effects how it should be judged.
A simple “torture shouldn’t be sexualized” doesn’t suffice.
Sexual violence has been depicted in other artforms with depth and nuance before now.
Granted, this probably isn’t going to happen in a fairly tropey fantasy RPG, but taking chances like this isn’t nearly as bad as the huge development houses that NEVER take chances.
Although saying that, CDProjekt claims Witcher 2 will have “deep moral dilemas” and “shades of grey” instead of black and white choices, so I think theres potential ground for them to handle it delicately.
13/09/2010 at 23:25 The Hammer says:
“Any time a creator changes their original vision due to fear of offending instead of their own vision and conscience isn’t a good thing for the artform.”
Wish they still made films like Birth of a Nation, then.
13/09/2010 at 23:41 Mil says:
taking chances like this isn’t nearly as bad as the huge development houses that NEVER take chances.
Thank you. Exactly my point. When I played the original game I didn’t care about the sex cards by themselves one way or the other –they were such a minor thing–, but I was pleased that the devs felt they could make the choice to include them in a mainstream game. Of course, after launch they probably discovered that they couldn’t, thanks to the HUGE OVERREACTION of everybody and their dog in Brit/American websites. It feels like maybe 50% of all the talk about the first part in sites like RPS consisted and still consists of handwringing about the cards.
So when the devs now saw the same drivers of the sex card controversy taking issue with this other quite minor scene, what choice do they face? Have it discussed over and over to the detriment of everything else? No, much easier to please the wannabe censors. Who can blame the devs for that?
Again, I don’t care about this scene in itself. I care that a risk-taking developer has been taught where the line is and people’s reaction is highfiving each other.
13/09/2010 at 23:49 TotalBiscuit says:
“Any time a creator changes their original vision due to fear of offending instead of their own vision and conscience isn’t a good thing for the artform.”
It’s a good thing that’s not what they’re doing then, they’re re-evaluating it because a critic they respect from a site they read made a point about the way the scene was presented that they agreed with. Criticism makes art better, not worse.
13/09/2010 at 23:54 kulak says:
Having listened to the interview, it does actually sound like the devs made the scene needlessly (and mindlessly) titillating, and are correct to tame it down (as it is actually detrimental to the scene, not because nudity automatically = bad/dumb).
Wasn’t sure how much of this was fear of obscenity, and how much was it actually ill fitting/unrealistic. Think RPS have come down on the right side of this.
I’d be interested to see a comparison of the original scene, and the modified scene that actually puts focus on the humanity of the situation rather than eye-candy(tits).
The juxtaposition of an abused, non-sexualized female character to the more titillating treatment of women in other parts of the game could lead to some interesting manipulation of the players perspective.
14/09/2010 at 09:53 Rinox says:
@ Totalbiscuit
Criticism has nothing to say about how art should be. Art is art.
13/09/2010 at 23:27 Earl_of_Josh says:
Hmm. While I understand the concern about brutalized women not being made into sexy-time, I’m always a little leary about any form of art changing the direction of their original vision because it “offends people”. Certainly there are some things which *I* don’t find enjoyable to participate in viewing/playing (for instance the brutal rape scene in the remake of “The Hills Have Eyes” had me reaching for the brain bleach), but then there are plenty of things which I enjoy watching that have everyone else retching (I really like the movie “Constantine”, which i guess is different. but kind of the same). I guess my point is that while I applaud the effort of making everyone aware that there are people who do find this sort of scene inappropriate, I can’t in good faith really get behind censorship of any media.
14/09/2010 at 00:35 Zenicetus says:
@Earl:
“Hmm. While I understand the concern about brutalized women not being made into sexy-time, I’m always a little leary about any form of art changing the direction of their original vision because it “offends people”.”
I think you’re confusing art-for-art’s-sake and a commercial product like a videogame. If the Witcher devs wanted to make a purely artistic statement, then they’re free to do so, and nobody could censor them (at least in most countries with more liberal freedom of speech laws). They could put it on a web site, develop it as an indie film, whatever.
This isn’t about pure art. It’s about developing a video game that will sell in sufficient numbers to make a profit, and allow the studio to survive to make the next game.
It’s not “censorship” when a studio decides to tailor a game for maximum sales. That’s all they’re doing here. It’s no different from a Hollywood film being changed from an X to an R rating by the suits in charge (and over the director’s objections), because it will make more money. And yes… sometimes that happens at the cost of making a less artistic statement. Not that I’m 100% convinced the original tits in the dungeon scene was making an actual artistic statement, mind you… but that’s just personal opinion.
Based on the earlier Witcher game, I think they have a good concept going here, and I’d like to see the studio sell enough Witcher 2 to make a Witcher 3, or take on another subject. Bioware needs all the competition it can get, and it ain’t gonna happen if smaller studios get sidetracked over “artistic” questions of how many boobs are in the game.
14/09/2010 at 16:38 Earl_of_Josh says:
Ah, good point. I would still stand by my previous statement (though, to be honest I don’t really find game sex scenes to really get me one way or the other. I admit I collected a lot of cards in the first one, but it was much more of a twitchy “gotta get ‘em all” pokemon-style desire, than a lust crazed frat-boy thing).
There certainly are times where listening to criticism leveled at media work in a value-increasing manner, i.e. the product after criticism is much better than it was before. But then, I think there are plenty of times where out of fear of pulic opinion, it goes the exact opposite. I really liked the first Witcher and thought the mood/world was very original, and that’s not easy to find these days.
I definitely hope that it sells well, and I don’t want to discourage them from making the game the best they possibly can. I just really hope that comments like Alec made don’t side-track them from elements that *I* really care about. Like story, gameplay and atmosphere etc. The Witcher is obviously a ridiculous caricature sort when it comes to sexuality, and I don’t really care about where they stick their nakedness, perfect boobs or no. I’d hate for the CD Projekt to wander back through changing a bunch of breast textures, and altering animations so they were “less sexy” in places. In my mind, that would be the exact opposite of adding value, its just detracting from the time they could spend on other more important elements.
13/09/2010 at 23:46 BubbScience says:
This makes perfect sense to me. Sure the game is supposed to be gritty, but presenting an appealing sexual image in such a context just comes off as juvenile, like slapping a Wilhelm scream over passion of the Christ.
13/09/2010 at 23:47 wrathfirex says:
Not too worried about this, in the end they’ll probably make a special ‘Enhanced’ Edition like in Witcher 1 with more ummm watja ma call them that women have and men don’t have?
Drat I’ll have to buy the game twice again. When will they ever learn… to be kinder on gamers’ wallets.
13/09/2010 at 23:57 Uhm says:
Let’s pretend it’s an artistic medium which extends beyond the confines of the game itself where the torturer was doing his job to degrade the woman as much as possible therefore the scene is set up for the player (not simply the player character) to view her as an object in a sexualised manner adding to her humiliation. Look at you, even the players of the outside World view you as nothing but an object. Or something.
14/09/2010 at 16:15 SheffieldSteel says:
I think you’re approaching this whole issue with more maturity than the vast majority of viewers here.
That puts you in the minority, and apparently – something to do with this being a commercial product – being in the minority makes your opinion wrong :-(
14/09/2010 at 16:23 SheffieldSteel says:
Let me try to clarify that.
The guards are treating her as an object to be degraded. Perhaps they have arranged the situation to maximise their own sexual gratification.
Geralt (from what I recall of seeing the original video) sees the same of her that the guards do, but he chooses to treat her with sympathy and decency.
You saw the same thing that Geralt and the guards did. How did YOU react?
14/09/2010 at 00:05 kulak says:
Okay last take on this.
Just saw the tit scene.
If it was trying to be gritty OR titillating, it failed on both counts.
It didn’t seem to be trying to be particularly titillating, but the interaction was so matter-of-fact and gamey I can’t see how anyone could find it compelling in any way.
Not to mention atrocious writing and voice acting.
Personally I’d rather have wank fodder OR something gritty and moving over just a completely blase presentation of what is either meant to be arousing or disturbing, but turns out to be neither.
In light of this, it does seem a bit of a storm in a teacup.
Shit, if thats their attempt at doing something interesting, they might be advised to throw in some rape scene in at least the vaguest of attempts to conjure some emotion OR arousal.
14/09/2010 at 01:19 Commissar says:
That’s because they’re using placeholders for pretty much everything, if the game was finished it would’ve been better.
14/09/2010 at 00:24 NieA7 says:
For fear of spoilers I’ve not watched the original video of tittygate. I played and thoroughly enjoyed The Witcher and neither I or my girlfriend (now wife – typing that out makes me feel so very old somehow) found the sex cards in the least bit offensive. I didn’t even think of them as “collectible” until I read people complaining about them in that way, I just saw them as part of the background information on people (nonessential at that), kinda fun, perfectly in keeping with the world they were presented as a part of. Given all the movies are easily accessible in the game data folder I never felt they had the hidden quality something needs to be a real collectible (not that I’ve looked of course).
I’ve got mixed feelings about this news. Having a leery quality to a supposedly harrowing torture scene would undermine the narrative of the game far more than any of the sex cards in The Witcher did/could. If CD Projekt Red are changing the scene in order to ensure that most people read it in the way I assume they intended it to be read (i.e. repellent, not trouser-stretching) then fantastic: that shows a real commitment to the quality of their work and a willingness to connect with their audience. If they’re just adding a cloth texture to cover up lady parts and avoid another bout of sex card rage amongst reviewers then that’s kinda sad – they should make the game they want to make, not a game they think others want to review.
It’s a very fine line and we’ll only be able to see the impact of this kinda stuff once the full game ships. I liked The Witcher enough to give CD Projekt Red the benefit of the doubt in the mean time, Witcher 2 is still one of the games I’m looking forward to most right now.
14/09/2010 at 03:18 Sigma Draconis says:
This is just about the same as my stance on the issue, but I’ll try my best to NOT ape your response. The sex cards in the original game were just there for me and a very minor “objective”. If I tripped the right flags and managed to get one, huzzah. Then I moved on in the game. I honestly got nothing else from them, be it titillation or collectible satisfaction. Yet I didn’t mind their presence, as I also saw the cards as fitting for the morally corrupt setting of The Witcher.
Getting back to this particular scene in The Witcher 2, I didn’t find anything arousing about it, not even the breasts. In fact, the implication of rape actually removed any possibility of me getting turned on at all. If CD Projekt Red felt that the scene would need to be edited in order to better convey disgust for what happened to the woman, that’s fine by me. That they listened to and responded to community criticism (somewhat quickly, as well) is admirable, which is more than can be said for most developers nowadays [insert your own example here]. At the same time, I don’t want to see rational creativity muted in fear of the possibility that someone’s sensibilities may be offended. A developer should be allowed to make the product they want to make (again, within some form of rationality).
Either way, I’m really not bothered. CD Projekt Red could include new minor sex card “collectibles” in The Witcher 2 if they wanted to, and it wouldn’t stop me from enjoying the hell out of it.
14/09/2010 at 00:42 lolwut says:
Not like the Witcher trivializes violence in any way. No.
14/09/2010 at 00:51 DJ Phantoon says:
Just woke up from a nap. Read “to know that CDP want to be sensitive as well as sexy.” first as “to know that CDP want to be subversive as well as sexy.” Had a blink, read it again as “to know that CDP want to be submissive as well as sexy.” But it was coming from Alec so I knew that still wasn’t right.
The Witcher has always seemed a bit immature to me anyways. If they wanna make a game that thirteen year old boys will hail as a technological triumph, sure, let ‘em. They just won’t see that much money.
14/09/2010 at 00:59 Dean says:
Did anyone actually find the scene titillating at all anyway? No-one here has admitted to that, we all seem to be talking about mythical other people who will just go ‘boobs!’ and start wanking. Sure, it’s not really shocking either, it’s just a bad scene.
And you know, if you make it more obvious she’s been raped and tortured then guess what, some people somewhere will still get off on it. Because torture-porn not only exists, but is a fairly profitable niche industry. And porn where the women is humiliated and degraded? Well that’s pretty much mainstream these days. If you stick anything like that in a film or game, no matter how nasty or essential to the plot it is, someone is going to be getting off to it regardless.
14/09/2010 at 01:16 Commissar says:
When I first seen it I thought ‘Holy shit tits!’ like everyone who isn’t asexual. When I seen the torturer grab the poker I knew what was going to happen and the devs presenting it decided to do what I would’ve done and saved her before anything happened.
But since we rescued her without her getting tortured (that we see apart from some scars on her back) the scene didn’t have the impact that it was supposed to. Maybe there’s others that you turn up after she’s been tortured badly, maybe you get there when they’re half way through? That would make for a better emotional scene. If they just change the first scene where you get there earlier it’d be better.
Also it’s funny that people always campaign about women being the victims of violence but when a game shows the violence in an obviously negative light then they bitch and moan.
14/09/2010 at 01:16 Sigvatr says:
This game sounded awesome for a moment.
14/09/2010 at 01:24 TotalBiscuit says:
Christ, grow up.
14/09/2010 at 01:29 Javier-de-Ass says:
fucking hell this is stupid
14/09/2010 at 01:52 Stabby says:
I like that they’re open enough to consider changing something that really doesn’t fit into the game, when they’re trying to create this dark, terrible atmosphere but then they’ve got huge perfect tits showing up in the same scene. The Witcher 2 will only be better because of the changes
14/09/2010 at 01:58 Irria says:
Have any of you actually seen the bit in question? You (used to) see “nudity” there for 3 seconds at most and, given the setting, it was hardly out of context.
14/09/2010 at 02:07 DigitalSignalX says:
I just played Modern Warfare 2 this weekend, and when you start it, this big warning pops up saying one of the levels may be entirely too offensive and you’re allowed to skip it if you want.
Only after completing the game and remembered the warning did I pause to think about what part could have been the offensive bit. I guessed it was the massacre in an airport, where you can choose to gun down unarmed civilians. I have difficulty understanding why it might be so offensive to people who would otherwise be fine with the REST of the game where you blow *armed* people away into bloody chunks.
Seeing a flash of boob while a woman is tied up is perfectly in context with the rest of the Witcher game. It doesn’t stand out as gratuitous imho.
Nor does it make me want to torture naked women either – just like I have no intention of shooting unarmed civilians. They’re games. Not life. We play them for that reason.
If you think something that happens in a game is so disturbing it influences what you might do in real life then you need psychiatric help. Not a warning label or a censored scene.
14/09/2010 at 02:44 Urthman says:
DigitalSignalX, that’s a straw man. No one (here) is claiming boobs in a video game will turn people into monsters.
People are saying that this particular use of nudity was bad storytelling, it didn’t make sense, it didn’t fit, it broke the mood that the game makers seemed to be trying to create in the scene, that it was poorly done, that mixing titillation with torture was repulsive, etc.
If we can criticize bad dialogue, bad animation, bad gameplay, etc., then we can also criticize bad use of nudity.
And hopefully we can also disagree on that topic without calling each other perverts or prudes.
14/09/2010 at 04:53 DigitalSignalX says:
While I understand your point, I see their changes as a self censorship, the result of criticisms of the portrayal of women in (and contrary to) the setting. You use the word titillation, which implies sexual excitement – and indeed it would be inappropriate in the context if that’s how you perceive it.
What I’m trying to say though is that if someone is truly sexually excited by this in a game, much as if you were suggestively influenced to violence by mowing down people in an airport, then no amount of censorship will remedy it. Better to maintain the integrity of the source material then walk on eggshells for a small fraction of your audiences mental health.
14/09/2010 at 05:34 Urthman says:
I think it’s more like saying to a developer, “That line of dialogue you think is awesomely cool? A lot of people think it comes across as overacted and ridiculous and they laugh derisively when you were hoping they would be thrilled. You should re-write it.”
Or in this case, “That nudity that you thought was realistic? A lot of people thought it came across as gratuitous — a ridiculous and inappropriate attempt at titillation — so it ruined the mood you were trying to create. You should re-work that scene so it achieves the effect you were hoping for.”
Neither of these has anything to do with censorship and everything to do with giving a developer feedback about something in their game that a big chunk of their audience thought didn’t work the way they intended.
14/09/2010 at 03:39 Hoernchen says:
Bast ! When I’m finally able to play that game I’ll probably think of strangling Alec Meer and how arousing said scene could have been..
Alec Meer broke the game ! You heard it here first !
14/09/2010 at 04:05 Biz says:
it isn’t about appropriateness and maturity
it’s a video game and therefore more about quality of dialogue/interaction, humor, and entertainment level of the story. the witcher was fantastic in these aspects and the game was better off because they knew their audience and chose to make a great game for them by sacrificing some elements for others
i am hoping CD projekt conjures up more orgasms
14/09/2010 at 04:22 FourthWall says:
Good on them for not rocking the boat of hypersexualization?
There was nothing sexual about that scene. Without bare breasts it would be perfectly fine, but I suppose it’s simply a matter of the perciever. In that case, I would say to not censor nudity and make that viewer think.
As to the ‘nudity is for/realated to immature’ thing; I would counter by saying that is a puerile view on accont that it forcibly limits speech on account of emotional reactions.
14/09/2010 at 05:08 Carolina says:
If they decided to make the scene more gritty, more brutal and removing any trace of ambiguity about the seriousness of the woman’s dire circumstances, good for them. If they just decided to make the victim less attractive to avoid provoking any erections in teenagers, I’m sad for their artistic integrity.
14/09/2010 at 05:59 nmute says:
if people want exploitation, find your nearest underground porn warehouse.
the rampant misogyny of the games industry is doing fine without that market.
14/09/2010 at 06:13 SwiftRanger says:
To be honest, I thought her breasts looked too big (and too shiny) when she dressed up again, not when they were laid bare. So CD Projekt, get rid of those wonderbras!
Seriously though, the nude stuff was appropriate for that scene and Alec and many others were overreacting. For all the original Witcher’s faults this scene of the sequel wasn’t sexist at all. You’re almost sounding like a certain US-based rating board which gets mad at watching nipples in games.
14/09/2010 at 07:31 Gnarf says:
They’re also going to make all the good guys really pretty and all the bad guys look really ugly. Removing any trace of ambiguity. Can’t have you going “well he looks kind of nice” when you’re really supposed to not like him.
So we’re basically just arguing that everything should be made simple and obvious. But we say the word “maturity” over and over so it’s fine.
14/09/2010 at 08:08 MacQ says:
Very well said, Gnarf.
While I like alot of RPS’s writing, I didn’t approve at all of the excessive shudder for the scene. I think it’s logical, that clothes get thorn when torturing and that men like boobs, although they live in the made up middle ages. If they hadn’t had liked boobs, someone of us probably wouldn’t write these comments right now.
And the scene was nowhere as immature as was presented by RPS. I watched it and thought nothing of it, but the text was written like a story for Playboy. Hopefully the developers won’t change anything.
14/09/2010 at 09:48 Carolina says:
You misunderstood completely my point.
Have you ever imagined being subject to torture, and maybe even rape? I can give you a hint: it probably won’t be sexy. I believe that if the director wants to enhance the feeling of despair and depravity of the scene, he’s within their artistic license to do that. It would probably make the presented scenario more powerful and shocking, and incidentally, realistic.
On the other hand, making her boobs smaller and her face uglier won’t achieve anything except maybe perpetuate the notion that everything must be horrible in a horrible situation, which is exactly what you’re whining about.
14/09/2010 at 10:01 Carolina says:
Oh, and by the way, I don’t have a problem with the original scene shown in the trailers. In fact, I was among the ones who actually disagreed with John Walker, and even got into a couple of arguments because of it.
I’m just saying that I don’t care if CD Projekt Red decides to improve the directorial work from “neutral generic dialog camera positioning” to some kind of more fitting visual style with the feelings they want to elicit. In fact, that’s what should be done in every scene, unless you want the same camera work and direction in every part of the game, regardless of how ugly or nice it is.
14/09/2010 at 13:40 Carolina says:
* I meant “disagreed with Alec Meer”. Sorry Mr. Walker!
14/09/2010 at 17:49 Gnarf says:
I been mulling over it a little and have come to the conclusion that, nah, I only completely ignored you point :D
I grabbed a couple quotes for illustrating this “sexy is only fine if such and such” thinking. And really, I guess should have went with a “something something needlessly erotic” one insteada yours. Because, yeah, your point was fine. I so wanted that part about ambiguity though.
14/09/2010 at 08:10 Jannakar says:
Sooo…
So if the woman gets smacked around a bit more, black eye, maybe a bloodied nose, that would be more ‘harrowing’ and therefore ‘better’? Hell why stop there, why not have her bent over a chest ass-raped and walking a bit funny? After all, they are torturers? If it was good enough for Tarantino, surely it’s good enough for CDP.
And maybe, just maybe, that it is possible to have a cracking pair or charlies without being a porn star ffs. Jesus is that what people think these days?
They only change I would make is to remove the unnecessary ‘allow me to cover myself’ dialogue and have the woman do it immediately as she is freed without permission from the man as that is exactly what she would do as soon as she could. That piece of dialogue draws attention to the state of the woman and is naff.
14/09/2010 at 18:39 SheffieldSteel says:
Good point.
A noble lady would not be ask for permission to dress herself. She’d be more likely to ask for assistance, if anything.
15/09/2010 at 10:03 Hmm-Hmm. says:
Well, maybe it was put in so she could ask for a little decency (i.e., turn around) from Geralt? Although I should watch the thing again to see exactly how it happened and as far as I can recall he didn’t turn around, so.. I don’t know.
14/09/2010 at 08:13 MacQ says:
And on more thing. Everyone’s reaction to the scene is purely subjective and shouldn’t be generalized. Some get aroused by the scene and some (like me) think the scene works better that way, because it adds humiliation to the torture. Ever think of that?
14/09/2010 at 08:16 QuantaCat says:
One thing I need to get straight to all the people commenting: The last thing torture/rape/abuse victims want is pity.
If they really want to depict a victim, and care about how she is portrayed, then they should depict her strong and coping. If that involves her being naked and fine about it, then why the fuck not. However, if it just doesn’t fit the scene, then sure, by all means, change the content. I still think The Witcher is one of the most mature RPGs out there, and no, not because of nudity.
14/09/2010 at 08:16 Lukasz says:
I am sorry HOW was it sexualized?
had the game ever tried to put boobs in first plane? Did we get too see them at a close up? Please anyone explain this to me as i just don’t see it?
The phobia of breast is just weird. Jackson shows her on public tv and it is national scandal, they show up in a game and people scream: “wrong”
And you know what sickens me the most? That violence is alright. It is perfectly alright to show Gerald cutting the head off a defensless guard, to turn a peacful tavern into a slaughter house.
That’s all fun and dandy. But female breasts? Something which 3.5 billion people have and 7 billion actually had contact with?
That’s evil? That’s immoral?
‘
I sure hope the polish version won’t be censored.
14/09/2010 at 08:49 Bloodloss says:
Agreed. It was in no way sexualised and it was not out of place to see breasts in that scene, it just so happens that men are aroused by the sight of naked women. I really don’t see why they should have to go back and make her uglier just so people aren’t as attracted to her. Is it really that big of a deal that the torture victim was good looking? I couldn’t disagree more with Alec’s original comments and I hope that CD Projekt doesn’t change the game too much due to people complaining for the sake of complaining.
14/09/2010 at 11:00 Humdinger says:
In a society where teens have hardcore pornography on their cellphones age 13 you will be hard pressed to get someone still aroused with tits.
Matter of fact, a certain % of british men e.g. no longer get aroused by “normal” pornography, at all.
Habitualization does eventually kick in if every ad, movie and game uses sex to sell itself because it has no actual substance to replace it with.
So wtf. 3 seconds topless scene people, wtf.
14/09/2010 at 08:54 Pemptus says:
Christ on a stick.
Not being able to play a female doesn’t mean the game is sexist. Not being able to play a black man doesn’t mean the game is racist. Showing mutilated bodies doesn’t mean the game is being disrespectful to the dead. Showing, I don’t know, a demon smashing a wooden cross along with a small hut isn’t immediately christian-bashing.
Showing tits in a situation where tits aren’t gratuitous and fit the scene isn’t friggin immature and uncontrollably oozing sexuality. If the players choose it to be and giggle like a 12-year-old, that’s their personality and sensitivity. But hey, let’s censor it anyway just in case someone might find bare breasts on a female torture victim in a room full of male guards offensive, eh?
That said, a less pristine hair and a bit more signs of torture would make the scene more believable.
14/09/2010 at 14:52 Urthman says:
Alec and the other critics aren’t saying they found the scene arousing. They saw the topless woman and rolled their eyes and said, “Sheesh, there goes CDPR again with the lame attempts at tittilation, and in a torture scene, no less.”
So then CDPR says, “Gee, that’s not the reaction we wanted people to have, maybe we should rework that scene.”
That’s not prudery and censorship.
15/09/2010 at 08:26 Kadayi says:
@Urthman
I’m pretty sure 95% of the commentators and even a few of the other hivemind thought that Alec was reaching in that post of his, so I’d hardly say it’s a majority opinion. That there is nakedness does not automatically mean that it’s arousing or meant to arouse.
14/09/2010 at 08:59 Radiant says:
Total Biscuit’s voice sounds like he’d be the worlds best bingo caller.
#careermove
14/09/2010 at 09:02 Choca says:
What a bunch of freaking prudes.
I saw that presentation at Gamescom and didn’t feel any kind of “lust”, anyone who did seriously needs to get laid.
She’s a woman being tortured in a somewhat medieval setting, of course the torturer is going to abuse her.
14/09/2010 at 09:23 VonGriffin says:
I like how the OP is bothered by the boobs but not the gore and the killin
Where is the Spanish Inquisition when you need it eh
14/09/2010 at 14:50 Gotem says:
Are you expecting the spannish inquisition?
14/09/2010 at 09:53 Alexander Norris says:
What a terribly poor show by the RPS commenters.
Allow me to summarise most of the opinions accusing RPS of terrible censorship: “waaaah, I like breasts but I’m too immature to understand that sexuality is not appropriate at all times and that a certain amount of gravitas in certain scenes would make the game stronger. I shall now equate a plea for good taste with the evils of censorship.”
14/09/2010 at 10:11 choconutjoe says:
“waaah, I’m too sexually retarded to grasp that in other parts of the world, bare breasts /= titillation. I shall now equate a relaxed attitude to nudity with immaturity.”
Straw men are awesome. It’s so much easier than actually paying attention to other peoples opinions.
14/09/2010 at 10:20 AndrewC says:
You will join me in the call, choco, for much more cock in games.
14/09/2010 at 10:32 Choca says:
The fact that you automatically assign breasts to sexuality just show how immature you are actually.
But yeah people disagree with a RPS poster, ooh I wonder how long it’s gonna take them to censor the comments this time.
14/09/2010 at 11:22 Jannakar says:
Wait a minute; “good taste”? When did we zap back to Victorian England? Get over yourself.
Look, Alec miscalled this one; the brutal depiction of violence is a large number of games says far more about the overall mentality of gamers and games developers than a pair of breasts on screen for no more than 10 seconds.
14/09/2010 at 12:19 DiamondDog says:
“What a terribly poor show by the RPS commenters”.
The amount of people missing the point on this issue is indeed quite stunning.
14/09/2010 at 13:50 MacQ says:
I’d rather miss the point, than make none at all.
14/09/2010 at 15:39 DiamondDog says:
Really? I’d rather not enter another opinion into this stream of nonsense if I thought I didn’t get it. However, people seem determined to argue over whether or not Alec is just an uptight English prude that doesn’t want any nudity in games.
Which is missing the point.
14/09/2010 at 16:56 MacQ says:
If I understand correctly that is exactly what caused this, so it’s right on the point.
15/09/2010 at 08:29 Kadayi says:
@Choca
Did they start deleting posts last time? Criticism is never a strong point it has to be said.
15/09/2010 at 08:35 Nick says:
They delete comments that are flat out obnoxious streams of direct attack insults. Nothing wrong with that.
Also I love how you preface the word prude with English, making it a xenophobic response. You know prude would do by itself, right?
15/09/2010 at 08:54 Jim Rossignol says:
We delete insults. Fairly regularly too. If you want a site where that doesn’t happen, go elsewhere.
15/09/2010 at 20:16 Kadayi says:
@Jim
I’m not interested in the party line. What I’m interested is in hearing from Choca as to whether that actually occurred, or whether that’s speculation on his part.
14/09/2010 at 09:55 Rupsu says:
God I hate games so much sometimes! It’s like growing up watching movies and as an adult realising there’s nothing but action movies and kids cartoons with the occasional student art film.
14/09/2010 at 10:37 OkSrsly says:
Wait til you find out they made a whole industry centered around treating women badly and having sex with them roughly that not only pioneers income of various states, but also industries and has the power to set industry wide electronic standards.
14/09/2010 at 09:59 Lambchops says:
it’s Witcher comment thread groundhog day!
14/09/2010 at 10:07 JohnDoe says:
CDP are such awesome guys.
14/09/2010 at 10:08 Notme says:
Boobs = sex in any context? Now I understand…maturity…yeah…
14/09/2010 at 10:16 Someone says:
Bad storytelling? We have games dedicated to pointless violence and mass murder, with shitty stories (if you can even call them that), but that doesn’t bother you, as long as you get to shoot people, fuck yeah! But when we get 3 seconds of breasts, you go batshit insane.
14/09/2010 at 14:12 Urthman says:
How long have you been reading RPS? Calling out games for having stupid, shitty stories is what they do all the time.
14/09/2010 at 10:22 Rinox says:
Let’s get it straight: how you interpreted that scene can only, objectively, be different depending on what you think the developers intentions were. I.e. whether you thought if
- they were trying to deliberately put a pretty woman with bare breasts in that particular scene not because it was useful or helpful to the circumstances, plot or atmosphere but because it would appeal to some people
- or whether they were just trying to set a scene that was as realistic as possible given the situation (dungeon, torture).
For me, personally, it was clearly the latter. There was a lot more in that scene that made sense (dungeon, woman being tortured by men psychologically and they’re getting ready to start torturing her physically, already showing some signs of earlier torture on her back) than what didn’t make sense (beautiful woman) – I wouldn’t even call that not making sense, as all sympathetic characters in all fantasy games are ALL beautiful.
It’s all about how you like to see the scene – which explains why some see extreme sexism in it and why some see an extremely non-sexual scene. May also be a cultural thing – I don’t see naked boobs as necessarily being sexual, but in some cultures they only appear in porn and late-night TV.
15/09/2010 at 10:45 Hmm-Hmm. says:
And the difficult thing with nudity itself is, of course, that not only does culture matter, but it can vary per individual person. Moreso, I’m fairly sure that seeing nudity in the context of torture and abuse in real life can be more than confusing and disturbing. Traumatising, possibly, in some cases. That doesn’t mean that was meant to arouse even though people can have many conflicting feelings at the same time, like arousal.
14/09/2010 at 10:35 OkSrsly says:
Personally I feel it’s one thing to just not have any sex and nudity in the game, because it’s “not about that”.
It’s another to put something in, and just because it’s suspiciously close to what goes on in part of a subculture that “the public” might not be comfortable with (erotic pain scenarios with sub/dom parts are not the same as waterboarding prisoners in Guantanamo is what I’m saying) then gets taken out again.
I for one don’t mind pixelwomen being tortured at all. It’s when real life women get hurt when we should worry.
IMHO this has way too much of the boring same old “If you kill someone on the PC/in a PC game, then you really are saying you want to kill real people” BS on a sexual level.
14/09/2010 at 10:39 James T says:
What bullcrap (anti-intellectualism? Which position’s meant to be the ‘intellectual’ one?) The scene was not framedd or written in an even remotely sexualised way, and Alec is right to squirm in embarrassment when he hears his absolutely misleading, wrong description of the scene spoken aloud. CDPR were not fetishing torture; if anything, merely having her breasts exposed was a -mild- concession to the sexual abuse a woman is likely to endure in a situation like that. The only (arguable) problem is that videogames have a tough time presenting material that is psychologically bleak in this way, simply by dint of how they’re made — the Uncanny Valley will always compromise scenes like these, and accordingly, people without the imagination to fill in the gaps will always say “OMG this is sleazy, bawdy, soft-focus PORNO” every time a nipple has the temerity to make it to screen. Maybe CDPR’s ambitions slightly exceed their resources, or the limitations of the medium, but the accusations of titillating torture fetishism are absolute bollocks. Sure, pay out on them for the playing-card thing in Witcher 1 — I know I do (and I give them kudos for dropping it in Witcher 2) but don’t blame them for made-up shit about nonexistent torture porn
14/09/2010 at 10:42 QuothTheRaver says:
From Neoseeker:
“Our feeling? Meer was a tad oversensitive and dare we say, oddly fixated on rather insignificant and/or imagined details. It’s also worth noting he had no problem with Geralt’s similar state at the beginning of the presentation (nor did any women, far as we’ve heard).”
+1
Oh noes, boobies. Will the visual molestations never cease! Foul temptations! Quick, induce self-whipping in front of the cross!
Oh please. As if you can still impress anyone with this stuff in the jaded age of tits or gtfo.
14/09/2010 at 10:53 goatmonkey says:
good glad they listen to comments like that it goes a long way toward improving the experience, really looking forward to this game loved the first despite its numerous flaws.
14/09/2010 at 10:57 Lambchops says:
On a side note I’ve started to notice that in these types of discussions that the word “prude” gets bandied about as if it’s some amazing ccutting insult, unanswerable argument winner.
I have to confess this confuses me. Surely there’s degrees of prudishness. Surely being a little bit prude isn’t a “Bad Thing TM.” i’d happily admit to being a little prude in some regards. I wouldn’t be comfortable, for example, wandering along a nudist beach, dong flapping around wondering where exactly my gaze should fix on. This doesn’t mean that I’m some ill adjusted weirdo who is completely uncomfortable with nudity. It just means that my comfort zone is slightly different to those good old naturists inhabiting that beach. I’d imagine they’d be quite happy with that and wouldn’t start mocking me as a “prude” as if this somehow made me an inferior person.
They “you silly prude” end of argument type comment is just as meritless as the comments crying “immaturity” without backing it up with any sensible reasoning.
14/09/2010 at 10:58 witcherdefenseforce says:
Do I need to remind RPS that the original English version of the Witcher was censored and watered-down to the point that it lost the majority of what makes it such an outstanding experience in the first place? Only in the EE and with a significant amount of effort did non-Polish speaking audiences receive the game they expected.
Part of the expectation is yes, women have tits. Also, women have sex. Also, they are exploited in the world of the Witcher. Also, there are also strong female characters, who aren’t afraid to have sexual identities. And they’re not all beauties, if I remember my fornicating in Witcher right.
Perhaps in the scene discussed, it might be that the torturer prepared the woman to arouse himself before setting about torturing her? Perhaps you should look into yourself to see why you are aroused by a topless woman in a torture situation? Perhaps the scene could be better presented, but should it be omitted? No.
We don’t need voices calling for a sanitized version of the Witcher. We don’t want to wait for the EE of Witcher 2 for it to be restored to its original vision because some politically correct dude was offended by a pair of boobs.
14/09/2010 at 15:45 manveruppd says:
I agree with witcherdefenseforce, thank you! Let us play The Witcher as CDP want to make it, and anyone who finds it offensive go play The Vagina Monologues Online.
And yes, I seriously cracked up when an unattractive old crone hits on Geralt (rather persistently!) in the first game! :)
14/09/2010 at 11:00 TotalBiscuit says:
“Do I need to remind RPS that the original English version of the Witcher was censored and watered-down to the point that it lost the majority of what makes it such an outstanding experience in the first place?”
Let’s not get confused here. The Original AMERICAN version of the Witcher was censored and watered down. The ‘English’ version was just fine.
14/09/2010 at 11:07 witcherdefenseforce says:
The dialogue, if I remember correctly, was watered down in all original English language (and German) versions. I’m not speaking about the omitted titty cards.
14/09/2010 at 11:17 Archonsod says:
Nope. The Americans have a problem with swearing, the English on the other hand, to paraphrase Warren Ellis, use the word cunt as punctuation.
It certainly wasn’t censored, but the language was still problematic largely because the use of swearing was more in line with what you get from the average 12 year old trying to be cool than how it would naturally occur between adults. Though admittedly, that could be an issue with the translation rather than the writing.
14/09/2010 at 11:28 witcherdefenseforce_ says:
This is wrong. Dialogue was sanitized/shortened from the Polish original in the original release of ALL english versions. To quote:
http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/The_Witcher_%28computer_game%29
“Colourful dialogue between characters was cut in the English releases — not merely the US release — especially through shortening of dialogue. Lead Designer Michał Madej has disputed claims by fans that this was due to the sometimes crude language, but that the decision to edit down dialogue occurred because of production-related concerns in game development. Proof reader Martin Pagan noticed this shortened version during his work and writer Sande Chen confirmed that it was not due to censorship. Fans have theorized that it may have been done for voice acting cost savings, especially since much of the vulgar language has been retained. Such cost savings would normally occur during any shortening of dialogue, even in cases where no major crudity was involved”
Additional changes to the US version:
“All the female portrait cards shown after Geralt’s “conquests” were retouched to a more modest standard for the US release version. The in-game Dryad was also reskinned so her hair covered more of her body in this release. “
14/09/2010 at 11:29 Dominic White says:
Even without knowing Polish, it was pretty obvious that there are a few characters in the Polish voice-track that swear up a storm, but it’s not reflected at all in the subtitles.
I’ve been told it’s a particularly good language to curse in.
14/09/2010 at 14:01 Lukasz says:
Polish is indeed superior to English in terms of cussing (whether it is good or bad i think it is up to you to decide)
Small example
We have four different words as a translation for the “F” word when used as a verb. One lost its impact in recent years and became less vulgar but in my opinion still stronger than “screwing”.
14/09/2010 at 14:59 Archonsod says:
The swearing isn’t the problem so much as the people standing on street corners shouting fuck every five minutes for no apparent reason whatsoever. It turns most of the settlements in the game into some kind of weird open-air tourettes hospice or something.
14/09/2010 at 23:22 Dominic White says:
Felt more like a fantasy version of Glasgow than anything.
15/09/2010 at 11:26 Kieron Gillen says:
I don’t think it was as much that the game was censored in the original English take – it was just translated really badly, with all the colour taken out.
KG
14/09/2010 at 11:24 DAdvocate says:
@Mac To be fair to Alec, he was commenting on a video which he had only seen once while amongst a crowd at E3 for which he was primed to expect a degree of sexual objectification due to the sex cards of the first game. Therefore his eyes were fixated on the exposed breasts of the torture victim over any other consideration and were seen as titillation rather than exhibiting a sense of vulnerability and realism which was the original intention (in my opinion).
However some of the commenters richly deserve your ire with their clear inability to separate nudity from sexuality, for which I feel profound pity. I would suggest they try to expand their exposure to foreign films.
14/09/2010 at 11:26 DAdvocate says:
Reply fail, ignore the above comment. posted again in the correct spot.
14/09/2010 at 12:13 ABC says:
Alec always over-reacts and is completely over-sensitive about anything portraying women in a position he does not like, which is plainly clear in almost every article he writes.
Enough blowing things out of proportion, enough with the whole “everyone is sexist and misogynistic”… it’s getting really old.
I saw no issue with the scene in question, and I saw no issue with the cards in the first, these are all just unfounded and unnecessary over-reactions, IMO.
14/09/2010 at 12:26 Carolina says:
I’d like to mention the movie Irréversible again. It features a much-debated rape scene; some call it exploitative, others call it art, and the flame wars keep on going. It’s actually a single, unbroken shot of about 10 minutes with a beautiful woman (Monica Bellucci) being brutally sodomized by an assailant in a pedestrian underpass. Afterwards, he bashes her head so hard against the floor that she falls into what appears to be an irreversible coma.
The scene isn’t by any means sexualized. In fact, Gaspar Noé said that he purposely shot it that way to avoid any kind of implicit moralization of the rape; he just placed the camera there and didn’t move it during the whole attack. He didn’t add any artsy filter, any background music, anything. It’s just a horrible situation filmed as dull as possible.
And still, the IMDb forums are full of men and women admitting that they were aroused during the whole scene. Maybe Monica Bellucci was too hot in the movie? Maybe some people do find fictional rape and violence arousing? Maybe Gaspar Noé should have picked a less attractive actress to avoid this kind of silly debates? To be honest, I don’t care. The movie wasn’t very good anyway.
But it kind of reminds me of this same discussion.
14/09/2010 at 13:02 Rinox says:
(Erotic) rape fantasies are actually surprisingly among women.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/201001/womens-rape-fantasies-how-common-what-do-they-mean
Also, I can’t wait to see Gaspar Noé’s new film, Enter the Void!
14/09/2010 at 13:03 Rinox says:
Surprisingly common*
14/09/2010 at 13:38 Carolina says:
For the record, I am not speaking against rape fantasies, nor saying that it’s male thing. Trust me, I know that, and I don’t see any problem with it. Anything can be fun and exciting if you’re doing it right, with the right people, as long as you don’t harm anyone in the process.
I’m just saying that even when the director does not intend to be titillating, some people will always find such a scene arousing, and it’s not the job of the artist to cater to their reactions. He should make whatever he feels it’s right within the context. If some puritan journalists or horny teenagers think that they shouldn’t have a raging boner during a rape scene, it’s their problem, not the artist’s.
And I still don’t see any intentionally arousing material in the trailers. But as Kieron pointed out, I may give Alec Meer the benefit of the doubt, since he was there and maybe he saw gameplay bits that didn’t make it to the promotional videos.
14/09/2010 at 13:47 Rinox says:
Oh I didn’t mean it as a disagreement. I was just offering it up as information on one of your rhetorical questions at the end of your previous post, since they are pretty surprising numbers (that’s the only reasons I remembered them in the first place). :-)
Judging by your other posts we are in agreement on the Witcher issue, if anything.
One thing re: the Alec was there comment…I do recall there being a whole lot of Beavis & Butthead style “huh huh huh” in the crowd after presenter said something along the lines of ‘the graphics in this scene are really nice’. So that may have influenced him, and I could understand that colouring his opinion. The scene itself though…nothing wrong there.
15/09/2010 at 11:37 Kieron Gillen says:
I actually agree with Carolina. Someone is always going to take any work the wrong way.
However, I don’t think it means that you just throw your arms in the air. You can do your best to make sure what you were trying to convey comes across to as many people as possible. And intent doesn’t always make a difference – it could be that the director/writer/creator/whatever simply fucked up. They thought they were doing one thing and they were actually doing something else. A creator thinking about what they’re trying to convey isn’t a bad thing. In fact, that’s how art works.
In this particular case, as I said with the video, what I saw didn’t seem to be a big deal.* It was just emotionless and stiff. The fact that she stopped to have a talk before grabbing clothes wasn’t particularly realistic, but I just took it as engine issues. But even with me, them having another think about the scene isn’t a bad thing. It was just nothing, and maybe with a second pass they can get some emotion into it.
(And I’ll agree – if they just put clothes on her and/or ugly her up, it’s the wrong response. That said, she is a mother with a grown child, isn’t she?)
KG
*Though, as Carolina notes me noting, it’s possible that Alec saw stuff we didn’t. The videos do have a gap.
15/09/2010 at 16:01 Carolina says:
You’re right on that it was emotionless and stiff; if there’s any criticism that we all can agree on, is that at the very least, if they were trying to convey harrowing feelings on the player, someone should inform the camera about it.
I’m just kinda uncomfortable with the whole “not against boobs, but for good taste” argument; if they want to be cheap and campy about rape, hell, it’s their game, they can do whatever they want. We probably are going to bash it afterwards, but at least they had the artistic integrity to do it as they wanted. I wouldn’t like to see an artist changing his or her vision about something only because it will provoke less rejection among his or her audience.
But it’s a moot point, because it’s fairly safe to say that they were, indeed, trying to lean towards the “horror and despair” side than the “look, boobs” one. And if that’s the case, yes, I agree that they could improve the direction and enhance their intended emotional response.
One last thing:
My dear Kieron, you’re the second or third man in this thread suggesting that childbirth somehow should impact negatively on a woman’s breasts. As a recent mother, and still working in the modeling business, I can attest that that is not necessarily true. Yes, some women gain weight or neglect their looks after having a child, but it’s not a stretch of the mind to think that there are others who stay sexually attractive. I could think of dozens of examples just from the top of my head.
I think it’s fair to say that if we get muscular, attractive, and fully-teethed men like Geralt or Dandelion, in a time where brushing your teeth and taking a bath were almost unheard of, where common diseases and infections could easily disfigure a man —particularly those involved in so many swordfights—, it’s not that much of a concession to throw in some hot lady from time to time. It’s a fantasy world after all.
14/09/2010 at 13:31 Dominic White says:
Over in the Sunday papers thread, I was talking about how the latest Metroid game has a disturbing vein of misogyny running through it, despite losing the one traditionally arguably sexist thing in the series (a brief picture of Samus standing in her underwear/sports gear if you beat the game very quickly).
Whats on show in That Witcher 2 trailer isn’t misogynistic in the slightest. The overreaction to it was enormous, and it’s really sad that the developers feel they have to listen to this bizarre, prudish criticism and rein things in.
14/09/2010 at 14:16 ABC says:
I agree. I’m disappointed that they feel they have to change the game due to some extremely silly over-reactions that, quite frankly, speak a whole lot more to me about the people who utter that nonsense rather than what they’re trying to point fingers at.
14/09/2010 at 15:13 Archonsod says:
The problem is that the reaction was not “Oh look, they’re torturing and abusing that poor woman”, but “oh look, CDProjekt are looking to appeal to the prepubescent market yet again via gratuitous titty displays”. The developers changed it because they want to be able to say “we have an adult oriented RPG with mature themes and sophisticated artsy stuff” rather than “we’re incredibly popular with the 13 – 17 market, and sales behind school bikesheds have exceeded our expectations”
So once more for the hard of thinking – nobody gives a damn about the woman showing her dumplings. The problem is the scene is closer to Mel Brook’s interpretation of the Spanish Inquisition than Edgar Allen Poe’s. Capiche?
14/09/2010 at 17:46 Lukasz says:
No. The problem is immature people who go dumb when they see a pair of breasts no matter what the context.
Woman is about to be tortured. So the “pain technician” opened her shirt to a) weaken her resolve b) have better access to her body when he applies whatever method of torture he desires.
There is nothing unrealistic in this scene…
14/09/2010 at 18:34 Archonsod says:
Going back to the original criticism from RPS:
” Big, incongruously perfect, brazen breasts, gleaming like oiled whaleskin amidst the blood and grime covering every other surface in the game. The woman in question is a prisoner, supposedly being tortured. It’s supposed to be a harrowing moment – a mother who’s just lost her son and is now in grave danger, treated with monstrous disdain and the threat of hideous sexual violence.
Instead, it’s masturbation fodder, an unashamed invitation to admire a pixel-perfect fantasy figure. This women is supposed to be suffering, but I’m supposed to salivate. The camera lingers, closes slightly on those improbable appendages – even when Geralt dispatches her torturers-to-be, rescues her and she requests to cover her porn star body up again, we’re treated to a final titilatting jiggle, rather than a demure turnaround, as she pulls her unscathed dress back up. She doesn’t seem terribly bothered. The game doesn’t seem terribly bothered. It just wanted to show us some tits, because apparently that’s how you know a game is mature. ”
Since education has went downhill I’ll do the reading comprehension for you. The main thrust of the complaint, ignoring the whole “how is it the woman the authorities decide to arrest just happens to be the only one in the village with a perfect body despite having a son in his late teens/early twenties”, is not that the breasts are displayed, but the way they are displayed. In short, this is not a torture scene, it’s a titty scene with a torture chamber as the background. This detracts from the emotional impact of the scene in much the same way adding “tits” after every third word in one of Churchill’s speeches diminished the gravitas of those speeches.
Nobody is complaining that the breasts are exposed. Nobody is saying they shouldn’t be exposed or covered up (in fact if you did so you’d lose the implied threat of sexual violence). What they’re saying is lets have a torture scene in which the breasts happen to be revealed rather than a breast scene that just happens to be in a torture chamber. It shouldn’t be that hard to grasp the difference there, assuming the word breasts hasn’t turned you into a drooling imbecile anyway.
14/09/2010 at 19:46 SheffieldSteel says:
I think this pretty much distills down the entire discussion to one question:
Was it a torture scene with tits in, or a tits scene with torture in?
But how to answer that question definitively? I’m pretty sure the developers intended it to be a torture scene. but Alec, if you’ll pardon the turn of phrase, saw the tits.
14/09/2010 at 19:54 TitsOrGTFO says:
+1 to OP
15/09/2010 at 10:03 Lukasz says:
@Snod
Go read SabsBot post just few posts below. Really great post explaining the scene
You and few others are treating boobs=sexuality. They are just breasts. pretty or not there are not sexualized in a context they were shown. They were just there like any part of a human body.
I really doubt if the breasts were covered but you would still see her sexy legs and abdomen that you would argue that the person is sexualized.
You say how the breast were presented, that this was wrong. Like many people here I don’t see it. I just see half naked woman humiliated and about to be tortured. Her being pretty is not an issue. The torture hadn’t taken place yet if you watch the video and she is not some random peasant woman who had 10 kids before the age of 25.
If not Alec post the whole scene would be barely noticeable.
14/09/2010 at 15:24 abase says:
It is hard to discuss the context without looking at the actual picture. Where one can see it?
15/09/2010 at 10:56 Hmm-Hmm. says:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/08/20/gamecon-%E2%80%9910-ripport-day-too-the-witcher-2/#more-36587
14/09/2010 at 15:30 abase says:
Nevertheless – Geralt created by Sapkowski is always able to find sexuality in women. And the tortured woman should combine in her image both pity and sex cause these are the feelings she makes Geralt to experience. I believe – there is nothing wrong when torturred woman looks sexy.
14/09/2010 at 15:40 manveruppd says:
Would you people relax already? It’s pulpy, lowbrow fantasy! Complaining about cleavages in a game like this is like complaining about the cheesy 1-liners in Schwarzenegger action movies!
Sheesh!
14/09/2010 at 16:36 Urthman says:
Again, since when are RPS readers not interested in calling out dumb things in video games for being dumb?
What’s next, are you going to defend the dialogue in Starcraft 2?
14/09/2010 at 23:30 manveruppd says:
No, I know it’s shit, which is why I won’t bother pointing it out. But I won’t criticise it or look down on anyone who plays SC2 because it has hammy, badly-written dialogue either, which is what the people complaining about the Witcher do!
15/09/2010 at 02:45 Urthman says:
Yeah, but imagine if early reactions had sent Blizzard back to the drawing board so that they released Starcraft 2 with a really good, well-written and well-voice-acted story.
15/09/2010 at 08:02 abase says:
I can’t imagine this. Seriously – those dumb dialogs was intended to be dumb. Take a look a SC2 rating )) what is the target audience of this game? Definitely not the bunch of cynical grownups like yourself.
14/09/2010 at 18:06 Sabsbot says:
I found the scene and the woman’s response to Geralt freeing her very appropriate in context, myself.
The torture has obviously not yet begun, as her torturer is still making demands of her as he is heating a branding iron in the fire. Her dress has been pulled down, so no two guesses as to where that branding iron is going.
She’s a noblewoman, so looks are very important to her, hence why she looks so attractive despite her (apparently recent) imprisonment – that body has been well-maintained by her to put her above common plebians. She’s also shown as being clearly defiant and proud in the face of her torturer.
Looks and pride are important to this woman, and she still has both, but risks losing them shortly.
Geralt kicks in the door and starts swinging a sword around moments before her torturer can begin ruining her. When her torturer is dead, she asks Geralt, using a refined yet slightly irritated tone, to release her.
When Geralt undoes her shackles, the very first thing she does, before even saying anything else, is cover her breasts with her arms. She says a quick yet well-spoken ‘thank you’ and then, still maintaining her pride and “proper aristocratic conduct”, asks Geralt to turn around so she can walk off-screen and put her dress back on.
The scene depicts an aristocratic and proud woman who is about to get tortured, but gets saved at the last moment. Breaking down crying is what “common folk” do, and the nobility is clearly above such self-degrading displays of vulnerability, so she maintains her conduct to the best of her ability.
I wrote this while watching the scene, and that’s how it comes across to me at least.
15/09/2010 at 08:06 abase says:
+1 Completely agree!
14/09/2010 at 20:01 tech says:
I’ve watched the video in question. Alec Meer exaggerated nearly everything about the torture scene. There certainly weren’t any camera zooms or oily bouncing breasts. The woman was not fawning all over the witcher for being saved and even walked off camera to cover up as the witcher averted his eyes. It was all very low key and has been severely blown out of proportion by Alec’s original statements.
14/09/2010 at 22:13 Bobbo says:
Personally I feel that from this day on, he shall be known as Alec “Jack Thompson” Meer.
Also, +1 OP.
14/09/2010 at 20:25 Scani says:
She’s not only noblewoman, but she used to be Foltests (king of Temeria) favorite. Not to mention that she is an baroness, an owner of the castle where the prison is placed. She acted against King, so she ended up tortured – probably she wanted her children (in fact Foltest is their father) to inherit the throne.
I don’t think such a woman (even in the Middle Ages) should look like a dirty, crying victim, even in this situation.
Do you really think that they would torture someone so important for real? To me it looks like psychological game. It’s all about one signature, there is no need to kill or uglify her.
14/09/2010 at 20:44 MycoRunner says:
I wish I understood regional jokes between the United Kingdom. Time to use my grandparents’ heritage to get citizenship, then jump across the pond to the green isle. Then I will know.
14/09/2010 at 22:15 TheBeerHunter says:
Might be time for Alec Meer to do a Steve Wardell on this one and admit that boobs are pure righteousness in any manner of form and/or presentation.
Uncramped levelheadedness, ho!
15/09/2010 at 08:13 abase says:
I believe Alec should immediately approachCDP and humbly ask for excuse. And! Ask them to not to change a tiny bit of the scene.
cos we wont mor bubs! )))
Seriously – taking opinions in this thread, the context of the scene is not ruined but enhanced by sexuality of present woman.
15/09/2010 at 13:03 Alec Meer says:
I’ve been generally keeping my head clear of this, as there a lot of people simply not considering the issue and defaulting to vapid abuse like “OMG censorship” or “OMG Englishman is repressed prude”, and it’s not appealing to try and make my point to people who haven’t yet taken the time to engage in adult discussion. But as a number of our highly-regarded regulars are pretty pissed with me too, I’d better explain my thinking some more.
If you think I’ve complained that there are tits in the game, you have not thought about this enough.
If you think I’m a prude, you have not thought about this enough.
You are, in fact, running the risk of expressing the sort of juvenile attitude that CDP don’t want their game to invoke, which is why they’re tweaking this scene. (And it’s important to observe we don’t yet know /how/ they’re tweaking it, which means I rather regret the inadvertently misleading title of this post. I’m not arguing that she needs to be covered up – changed animation and dialogue to better evoke the nasty situation the character’s in would probably be all the scene needs to achieve what it wants to achieve.)
I am quite happy for there to be tits in the Witcher 2. Really don’t give a monkeys about whether there is or isn’t nudity in a game aimed at adults (though ideally there would the full range of nudity from both genders, so no-one’s losing out). I’m just a little bit dissatisfied with it being done in a scenario where you’re supposed to be thinking about the woman’s suffering, not her body. That’s not being repressed, or scared of sex. Sex is ace! My complaint is about wanting the scene to be better, to be as dramatic and affecting as the devs intend it to be, and not cheesy “wahey, sex and violence!” little thing for 15 years old to screenshot to death.
I do admit I overstated the scene in question in the original post, but in my defence that was based on seeing the demo in a live run-through on a giant screen at GamesCom (on which the woman was honestly not the small, blurry backgrounded element you’ve seen), not on repeatedly going through a tiny shaky-cam video. Poetic license and earnest opinion based on gut-reaction, which is scarcely uncommon on RPS but it’s really, really unfortunate that I didn’t also watch the Youtube videos before posting so I could have tempered my comments.
I do, however, suspect that a number of people – including Kieron, who as you’ll have seen broadly disagrees with me on this one – haven’t entirely considered the fact that the scene’s controllable too, that even if the Youtube video is admittedly relatively perfunctory in what it shows, there’s a lot of scope for a more lascivious player to hang around having an ogle when he should be rescuing a woman from acute distress.
What the outraged are calling prudish, I call “simply wishing a dark and moving scene didn’t risk being disrupted by plasticky, posed nuddiness that doesn’t do much in terms of animation or speech to evoke the horror of the situation.”" I’ll happily acknowledge many people won’t care and that most players are adult enough to not look peniswards in response – but there will be a lot of people who think “phwoar! boobs” and thus the scene’s intended impact will be diminished.
That’s exactly what the CDP guy says in the interview. No doubt they think I’m overreacting too, but they’ve placed evoking a specific and planned response to this vignette over and above the right to bare boobs. So they’re going to tweak it a bit because they’re worried the section won’t always achieve what they want it to. That’s a mark of integrity, not of fear.
No-one’s censoring the game, and no-one’s calling for it to be censored. It’s only about deploying the sexy stuff in intended sexy moments. It’s only about mood and atmosphere.
15/09/2010 at 13:12 TotalBiscuit says:
Kinda regretting asking the question now to be honest, considering some of the response :>
Whatever the case. As far as I’m concerned, this scene could be fixed simply by having the woman react in a more realistic manner. She didn’t seem too relieved, or distressed, or bothered by the whole thing, she was very matter-a-fact. As somebody said earlier, her reaction was ‘gameish’. Absolutely, leave her bare-chested, hell, leave her completely naked for all I care, but don’t make her a robot.
15/09/2010 at 14:48 Gnarf says:
Really, “a lot of people will think ‘phwoar! boobs’ so we change it” is not about integrity. It’s about other people. If they, the creators, do not think boobs are disruptive, then changing it because of other people is, you know, the complete opposite of integrity.
And you really don’t have to bring “many people” and “most players” and “a lot of people” into it. Leave that to marketing and say your piece on it instead. If you went “phwoar! boobs” and that ruined everything for you then just say so. If you didn’t, and you’re just worrying that for someone else in the universe it might possibly be like that, then, uh, I don’t really see the point…
And as a general thing I don’t mind sexy. I’ve no idea why it should be limited to otherwise completely sexy moments where everything else is also made of sexy.
15/09/2010 at 14:51 ThoughtPolice101 says:
So, let’s step through this:
1. “I’m just a little bit dissatisfied with it being done in a scenario where you’re supposed to be thinking about the woman’s suffering, not her body.”
So if a human male for some reason feels female suffering can fit together with sexual desire and is a viable roleplay element and sexual fantasy, then in your eyes he is a disgusting being and would much rather tell him what he is supposed to see when he is exposed to random media?
Vaguely related: See also Rinox’s post and link to Psychology Today’s rape fantasy.
-
2. “What the outraged are calling prudish, I call “simply wishing a dark and moving scene didn’t risk being disrupted by plasticky, posed nuddiness that doesn’t do much in terms of animation or speech to evoke the horror of the situation.”"
So you have pretty much decided you hold the right to sole interpretation and creative direction of a given scene in a fantasy medium, and that in YOUR opinion the scene is supposed to be dark and moving, AND, on top of that, anything that is dark and moving, may never at the same time be allowed to carry any ambivalence or erotica whatsoever, lest someone may be confused as to what to feel at what point in time?
(Vaguely related: Well there goes just about every horror-gothic-erotica-vampire-novelmoviegamecomicanything right out the window)
Also: wouldn’t a more prolonged nasty depiction of violent rape much more nicely “evoke the horror of the situation”?
And if not rape, then mistreatment? So would we end up with it being okay with her being beaten, scarred, cut open and otherwise mutilated, just as long as there is no “gratuituous nudity” involved?
Is this seriously how nutty this has all become?
-
3. “there will be a lot of people who think “phwoar! boobs” and thus the scene’s intended impact will be diminished.”
So you have decided that you know much, much better than anyone else how the human psyche AND individual minds function and how men and women ONLY possess capacity to EITHER go hurr hurr titties OR feel sorry for the girl, instead of actually being able to feel a multitude of emotions at once.
So, human emotion is a single, one-bit register, that can only ever be occupied by one state at any one time, right. It couldn’t happen that one part of the male brain reflexively goes “Hell yea, TITS!” and the other “Man, it would suck being in her place/situation” while a third goes “I wonder how it would be to be the keeper in that place before Geralt storms in..” and yet another ..etc
Right.
Singular train of thought and single level of interpretation for everyone. Go!
-
4. “It’s only about mood and atmosphere.”
So the crazy idea that there ever could exist a setting in which the border between violence, sexuality, horror and arousal is unclear, and where this is tangible so that it in turn leads to an internal dialogue and questioning about the very nature of what it is that is our sexuality and secret longings, cravings and desires is just plain no-go in the way it was represented and you feel you’d much rather have it your way and unambiguous, since apparently that’s the only way.
Quite frankly this all feels a lot like someone just screaming at a game’s dev “doinitwrong”, i.e. just one more case out of an infinity where someone on the internet has some really oddball opinion about something that most others have no idea what the guy is on about, just that in this case you are actually someone with a lot louder voice than the rest due to status.
Not that you aren’t just as entitled as the next internet guy to do so.
It’s just that if / when it becomes a story for you instead of just another post somewhere in a comment stream / forum thread, and potentially ends up with “Censorship, hooooooo” screaming publishers(moreso than the developers themselves, which seem to have far less issues with the mixture of violence and sexuality to begin with), then the impact and roles just change a bit.
Other than that, I know / can see the original argument. I just feel this is not making a mountain, but an entire galaxy out of an anthill just because someone dared to show dem sum titties.
There have been far worse moments of trespassing on the intellectual bounds of overdone sexuality.
Quite frankly, personally I am far more disgusted by the overemphasized ugh-ishness of the anime characters and dialogues in Recettear that everyone loves so much, than this ho-noes-a-boob scene in a clearly made for adults game.
15/09/2010 at 15:30 Alec Meer says:
It’s interesting that, whilst calling for greater ambiguity, you’ve unilaterally claimed I made unilateral statements, Thoughtpolice. Before winding up with a unilateral statement of contempt about an entirely unrelated game.
15/09/2010 at 16:49 Carolina says:
Alec, first of all, let me tell you that I highly respect RPS’s members for having the honesty to publicly disagree in their comments.
I’m sorry to see this potentially interesting conversation about artistic intent and audience interpretation decaying in what you accurately described as childish and vapid. Reading your thorough response, I can say that I see where you’re coming from, and if this would have been the tone of the original post, I wouldn’t find any reason to disagree.
I’m still curious about some of your comments; and please don’t get me wrong, I’m not subtly disagreeing or conveying sarcasm. I am honestly curious, as in, I’d like to read you expanding further on those comments, because I’m not sure I’m following your line of thought yet.
For example:
In that case, wouldn’t that be the player’s fault? And when you say that the player should be rescuing a woman, are you stating CDP’s thoughts on the matter or yours? It’s not a rhetorical question by any means, I reckon it’s perfectly possible that you know for a fact the artistic intentions of the makers, since you obviously spoke several times with them.
And if that’s the case, if you can confirm that their sole motivation in that scene is to make me feel horrified with that woman’s suffering, yes, I agree with you that they would be wise to rethink the whole presentation.
15/09/2010 at 17:03 Alec Meer says:
Caroline –
I’m specifically referring to what the dev says in the podcast this post is based around.
“Internally, we had a conversation. ‘Guys, we wanted to show in a mature way that this woman is being tortured. But it’s true that the way you show it, some of the players will think ‘okay so there’s a naked woman, maybe there will be a sex scene.’
Guys, this was not our intention. We’re gonna have to think about it, redo some graphics or redirect the scene. It’s not about that, let’s make it so players don’t want to have sex with her, they really feel for her.’ This review really inspired us to rethink the scene.”
And it’s such a shame that so very little of this entire debate has been about what CDP *actually said,* and instead only about what I originally posted. I dithered for a long time on posting it because I feared that would happen, and because I knew that would be my fault. Welcome to the internet, me. Still: it would have been very, very poor form to not acknowledge that the devs had responded to my concerns about the scene.
15/09/2010 at 17:12 Carolina says:
Alec, thanks for your response, it made the whole picture very clear to me now.
With that explanation and quote from the developers, I honestly can’t see how anyone could disagree with you. It’s very clear that they are aiming for a serious take, and yes, this very debate is proof enough that they weren’t doing it right. As Kieron suggested above, sometimes artists fuck up their work.
Thanks for clearing that up, I see your point and agree with you.
15/09/2010 at 20:01 Laurentius says:
It’s obvious that’s despite being adult orientated, this game won’t be for everyones tastes and Mr Alec Meer is one of them. It’s good they didn’t present him with actuall sex scene because i don’t know what would happened. Despite stating otherewise it’s obvious that nakedness in videogames it’s not his cup of tea. That’s ok, but i can bet heavily that Alec Meer won’t like this game even if they remove whole torture scene compleltly but keep sex scenes featuring naked femele breasts. There’s nothing wrong with this and even before Witcher 2, we will presneted with another adult orientated fatnasy RPG -Dragon Age 2. There is very likely that there won’t be any nakedness, maybe sex scenes involivng people in diapers, and again there is nothing wrong with this either, diffrent things for diffrent tastes, so personally i strongly hope Witcher 2 won’t be like DO2, let’s keep diversity in adult orientated games
16/09/2010 at 06:06 Nick says:
It’s obvious that, despite explaining himself very clearly and despite the comments made by the creators of the game themselves, some people are determined to ignore all that in order to speculate wildly and borderline offensively about Alec. Let’s keep intelligent discussion in RPS comment threads.
16/09/2010 at 08:05 Laurentius says:
But what caused this ? Alec original post. He himself now admited that he overstated. Thing is that it was so wierd, words and pharases he used, that it really has to shift attention from this pretty minor scene (with all it flaws ) to author.
“If you think I’m a prude, you have not thought about this enough.” Thing is that these two things are not exectly connected. After all this i have two opinions formed in my head, that don’t cancel themselves out. 1. Alec is generally right about this torture scene, i mostly agree with what he had written now (not in original post)- good gaming journalism – spot on. 2. Not connected to videogames but readers get some insight of author’s personality b/c of his written work and now i can’t help but think “OMG Alec is repressed prude”
16/09/2010 at 08:34 Kadayi says:
I think a lot of these ‘problems’ simply come down to the fact that in terms of assets, games (and especially RPGs) tend to run up against the very real limitations of character models, animation and the conveyance of nuance within those limitations, and that in any assessment of a game it’s important for people to bear those in mind. Great as it would be to have truly unique character models for every NPC, that just isn’t possible at this point in time, especially given that more and more titles are multi-platform and so generally suffer the pain of having to straddle the 360 and its hardware limitations (no guaranteed hard drive) and disc licensing issues.
17/09/2010 at 14:40 Huggster says:
I agree a lot of it is down to character model limitations as well.
However if they really want to make us feel sorry for the prisoner, they should show her badly beaten and with some nasty cuts on the exposed model.
Not nice at all I know, but it would absolutely remove any doubt about torture and make it incredibly mature and thought provoking – maybe even make the player more angry and protective. I doubt many people would find it sexy then.
Also, though I love the female form, I think they are right to change it – its definitely a bit tacky. Little things like this can improve a game here and there – I am sure there are other scenes which handle sexuality in a mature way in the full game.
15/09/2010 at 14:26 Ezhar says:
Oddly enough Hollywood has no problems with torture porn scenes.
15/09/2010 at 15:06 Gnarf says:
So, uh, can this be likened to people wanting everything to be grimdark and gritty like really mature and mostly browngrey? And then, can they be like “Gritty-mature, not titty-mature!”? Is that a good slogan? It rhymes a little.
16/09/2010 at 05:48 Cuj0 says:
Disappointing to see a developer cave to pressure of this kind. I’ve seen the shakycam, and I was surprised to see the original post on RPS. It reeked of the guilt-ridden, prudishness that the media of my country (America) would normally display in such a situation. The scene is, as many others have said here, only as sexual as you perceive them to be. Thus, it’s unfortunate that CD Projekt would censor their work based on some opinions.
17/09/2010 at 05:18 Å says:
I don’t really care too much either way but I do find it so very hard to buy the whole artistic intent aspect of it all. The first Witcher game is purely about juvenile male fulfillment. It has a catch them all card collection metagame where the main idea is to sleep with everyone you see for christ sakes. It is not by any means I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream (now that was a game that depicted rape in horrifying manner not to mention the Holocaust) and one should not treat it as such. It’s the Duke Nukem of RPGs without any of the irony and one of the if not the main selling point that is underlined in every single preview of the second game and in every single review of the first game is sex. The one thing that sells even better than sex is controversy (from Mortal Kombat to GTA: SA). Censorship? This is salesmanship.
Now if only they spent all this time on improving the combat, the dialogue (oh god), the story and the writing in general, quest design, level design, the engine, the crafting system, adding some actual consequences to the mostly superficial choices, I don’t know stealing ending slides from Fallout like every RPG made since 1997 should have done, anything.
22/09/2010 at 00:39 vilnii says:
Neeoseeker has an excellent description of Alec Meer here…
http://www.neoseeker.com/news/14863-witcher-2s-nude-woman-torture-scene-being-reconsidered/
23/09/2010 at 11:11 Huggster says:
Okay I have just fallen in love with this developer. Watch this:
http://www.4players.de/4players.php/tvplayer/4PlayersTV/Alle/19173/61648/The_Witcher_2_Assassin_of_Kings/Prison_Break_Trailer.html
01/12/2010 at 20:32 Rhalle says:
Big tits in a game for young males? A game loaded with visceral and bloody violence? The horror.
The tastefully-done borderline trashy letters-to-Penthouse male fantasy stuff was integral to the larger Alvin’s stepfather plot and made Witcher a real breath of fresh air.
But, hey, maybe CDPR should cow-tow to phony postmodern internet sanctimony and throw away everything that actually makes them interesting; they should just pare all offensive moments and become bland and stultifyingly Politically Correct, like Bioware, and give us endless tales of space racism and gay puppet fucking instead.
And, oh: the torturer was going to sear the woman’s tits with the red-hot sword.
Gratuitously large tits? Maybe. But I like tits, and I bet Geralt does too.
An effective scene with appropriate imagery when one considers the scuzzy sexless soldier, the red-hot brand and Geralt’s reputation and the (overheard) reason for her imprisonment?
It’s absolutely appropriate imagery. Freud would be satisfied.
P.S.:
The Witcher’s high-class raunch sex-cards were not juvenille or embarassing.
They were FUCKING AWESOME.
And, in point of fact, it’s pretentious moralizing over videogames– especially when it comes to showing some hooters in a game that is otherwise laudable– that is juvenille and embarassing.