By John Walker on October 13th, 2010 at 6:08 pm.
Valve have announced their new game. As expected, it’s to do with Defence Of The Ancients. But it’s not a remake – it’s a sequel. It’s Dota 2. (Except it’s a remake really.) The details are over on Game Informer, which is inevitably struggling with traffic at the moment. More details below.
The game is the work of Dota coder IceFrog, made from within the grey walls of Valve HQ. He worked on the more popular version of the original 5 vs 5 Warcraft III mod, DotA: Allstars, and was hired by Valve in 2009.
Game Informer reports that the core game remains almost untouched. So rather than a radical redesign, the changes here are more for the game’s tech. In fact, everything, from the maps, the heroes, items, skills and upgrade paths all remain identical. It’s a remake, really.
Of course it’s being made in Source, so it looks dramatically different than the ancient Warcraft III engine. And GI says that Source is getting an update with this release, with new lighting, and the all-important true-cloth simulation, the lack of which has been holding back gaming for years. They’re also building AI bots to replace missing players, and of course therefore for training, but not making a single-player game.
The intriguing feature appears to be how the Dota 2 community will impact upon the game. Improvements to Steamworks mean that there will be in-game rewards for participating in the community. Says GI,
“The idea is to have everything a player does in or out of game tie back into their online identity.”
This includes posting on forums, contributing to strategy guides, which seems to be intending to keep the community all in one place, and making it much easier for players to get into the game. And indeed incentivising other players to make that easy. There’s even a “coaching system” where veteran players can train newer players.
For all the details of how Valve is attempting to fix the issues of newbie baiting that plague DotA, and to make entry to a game that relies on experience and skill to win at, check out GI’s detailed article.
Valve says it plans to devote as much time and updates to Dota 2 as Team Fortress 2 has received over the years, so it could well be a game that evolves over time, and seemingly one whose evolution will be driven by the community of dedicated players.
It’s due some time in 2011. RPS has plans to find out more, even if it means conquering America, becoming Kings, and forcing Valve to tell us on penalty of beheading. UK STYLE.
13/10/2010 at 18:12 Matt says:
The article claims they are keeping all “100+” characters from DotA-Allstars. Does it really have >100 characters? How the hell is a newcomer supposed to jump into a game like that?
13/10/2010 at 18:14 RC-1290'Dreadnought' says:
Oh wow, you could actually load the page?
I’m curious now!
13/10/2010 at 18:16 Gentacle says:
“Newcomer” and “DotA” is like oil and water.
13/10/2010 at 18:20 Spd from Russia says:
its for hardcore no-lifers obviously
13/10/2010 at 18:22 KindredPhantom says:
By being coached by veteran players who will be rewarded for the coaching by getting in-game rewards.
13/10/2010 at 18:24 AS says:
It might have a little under 100 characters right now, but heroes are still being added to WC3 DotA. The coaching system will go a long way towards improving the flaws of the game.
13/10/2010 at 18:56 Reefpirate says:
I was ‘coached’ by a couple of buddies (lord knows I wasn’t getting ANY help from in-game teammates) but I still was at a loss. With so many characters, and so many obscure and unintuitive tactics (last-hitting? What the hell kind of mechanic is that anyways?? A very boring one if you ask me.), it takes a special kind of person to spend about 3 or 4 months learning how to play this game properly. I’ll stick with SC2 thanks very much.
As an aside, I gotta say I’m disappointed in one of Valve’s “big announcements that you will like”.
13/10/2010 at 19:34 BooleanBob says:
“it takes a special kind of person to spend about 3 or 4 months learning how to play this game properly. I’ll stick with SC2 thanks very much.”
Buh?
13/10/2010 at 19:57 DrGonzo says:
When you say last-hitting I imagine you are actually talking about denying. That’s when you kill your own minions and towers to stop the other team getting so much exp and gold. League of Legends removed this completely, which in my opinion is the best thing about it. It makes the game a lot faster paced and aggressive. It now requires more tactics, you have to push them away from the minions by fighting them to deny.
I really hope Valve announce some changes to the formula. There is no way they can make plain Dota accessible. Hell I have about 300-400 games of LoL under my belt and about the same in Demigod, but I still hate HoN and DOTA.
14/10/2010 at 00:19 Malkar says:
Last hitting means… hitting something last. As in a creep. To get the gold. It’s a quite often-used term in League of Legends, actually.
14/10/2010 at 01:19 Anthony Damiani says:
Man.
I have never seen a genre where new games were expected to have such a resolute insistence to the conventions of its forebearers. HoN was basically DotA, LoL pitched itself as as a spiritual successor, and DotA 2 promises ALL of the 100 original champions.
I like the genre, but the tie to this particular game is a turn-off.
14/10/2010 at 06:48 DrGonzo says:
I know it is. I meant, you can’t really not like last-hitting. There is no way to remove it, the only other option would be invincible minions. But League of Legends over halves the amount of last-hitting by not allowing you to attack your own minions.
14/10/2010 at 09:33 Nova says:
There are 101 heroes at the moment.
13/10/2010 at 18:16 DeepSleeper says:
Great, so they’re making a sequel that’s effectively exactly the same game, with the new feature that a guy can watch your screen and yell at you personally.
After watching the LoL and HoN forums out of a vague interest in finding out what these games were about, I can’t wait to see how far up its own ass THIS community crawls.
13/10/2010 at 18:18 salejemaster says:
aaaaaaaaaaaaaa……….\m/\m/\m/\m/\m/…..weeeesommmeeee
13/10/2010 at 18:19 Kirian says:
It’s DotA in a new engine. That’s what it is. It’s Heroes of Newerth: Source Edition, minus the heroes S2 designed.
If I was S2, I would be livid.
13/10/2010 at 18:31 pakoito says:
The most funny thing is all the DOTA fanboys stating that HoN is a ripoff now are wanking over DoTa2. It’s the same game! The same new features! Hell, we’re not even sure if you can reconect to the game if you drop!
Also, hats.
I’ll be waiting and will probably play it but…seriosly. Fanboyism.
13/10/2010 at 20:25 Spd from Russia says:
with this being on SOUCE engine I`m affraid it will be inferior to HoN feature-wise
13/10/2010 at 22:47 DJ Phantoon says:
Why would they put it on the Souce Engine? Source works perfectly fine.
13/10/2010 at 18:19 man-eater chimp says:
So now I have to reinstall Warcraft 3 and download the original mod to work out what on earth the game is. No bad thing.
And I actually got on the site! Today’s a good day!
13/10/2010 at 18:23 Schaulustiger says:
I’ll be waiting for more details before I start whining. But my first reaction after reading “DotA 2″ was a honest “meh”.
13/10/2010 at 18:29 Schaulustiger says:
Ah, I was finally able to read the GI article.
“This approach means that Dota 2 basically is DotA-Allstars with new technology.”
I’m not interested.
13/10/2010 at 18:25 stahlwerk says:
Huh, that’s a (not) suprisingly enthusiastic “preview”.
“The enormous following generated by DotA’s deep gameplay is unprecedented”
“Valve Corporation, the company beloved for its Half-Life, Counter-Strike, Team Fortress, and Left 4 Dead series as well as its outstanding Steam digital distribution and matchmaking platform,[...]”
(emphasis mine)
13/10/2010 at 18:32 TDM says:
Speaking of the beloved Half-Life series…
13/10/2010 at 20:19 Mike says:
There was something coming up in that series that Valve should be working on instead of this, shouldn’t it…
13/10/2010 at 18:28 teo says:
We already got 2 copies of DotA
13/10/2010 at 18:28 tomwaitsfornoman says:
Insert anti-Gamestop comment here.
13/10/2010 at 19:58 Frankie The Patrician[PF] says:
*inserts one*
13/10/2010 at 18:29 Xercies says:
You know i bet many people are dissapointed that its not Valve just doing what they do normally and try to get there games to be able to be played by many people. Thats the only way I would play this type of game because otherwise it makes the community vemenous.
13/10/2010 at 18:29 Sweefyt says:
You have to be willing to look. There are several communities and IRC pickup channels where the infamous DotA/HoN drama is not tolerated, and play is loads of fun.
Also, it is most definitely a remake. The Project Lead says quote “This approach means that Dota 2 basically is DotA-Allstars with new technology.”. Every hero mentioned is a hero from DotA. The map is identical.
13/10/2010 at 18:55 Bloodloss says:
You mean there are places where they don’t tolerate people being dicks to people who are new to the game? Or is it only for experienced people? Either way, more info please?
13/10/2010 at 18:31 Cyrenic says:
I was guessing this was the route they were taking. Though I was really hoping they’d do something different and try to move the genre forward. The biggest thing being accessibility (all 100 heroes? lulz).
I guess that leaves League of Legends to innovate in the DotAclone/whateveryouwanttocallthegenre space. They’re moving slowly but at least they’re trying.
13/10/2010 at 18:47 jonfitt says:
We’ve already got LoL, it’s great and it’s F2P. Do you see anything of interest in DotA2 aside from the fact that it would be managed by Valve?
13/10/2010 at 20:00 Frankie The Patrician[PF] says:
Hats for TF2? :)))
14/10/2010 at 02:09 malkav11 says:
It will be pretty.
14/10/2010 at 07:38 DevilSShadoW says:
as a LoL player i have to totally agree. This is the 1st ever announcement from Valve that not only strikes me as not interesting but as overall shitty. DotA? Seriously? Could you at least change it up a bit? Maybe add some little Valve twists to the game? No? Fine, i’ll stick with LoL. At least they are doing everything possible to keep the game playable for newcomers (when i fist got into LoL i had no idea what DotA even was). Source engine and steamworks… BUT IT’S STILL DotA, meaning all those lovely chaps from the old game with their lovely ol’ OCD’s and foul mouths and elitism syndromes will move over to the steampowered forums. It will be amazing…
13/10/2010 at 18:33 Delusibeta says:
While I’m also unable to get onto the site, I’m kinda of disappointed if it’s not covering any ground that LoL or HoN hasn’t already.
13/10/2010 at 18:35 Matt says:
http://pastebin.com/Rrh8ZycZ
13/10/2010 at 18:47 Delusibeta says:
So, basically it’s DotA: Source. Pass (although I would be curious about the improvements to Source and Steamworks. Wouldn’t mind seeing some of those community elements implemented in TF2 or Audiosurf, or something).
13/10/2010 at 18:34 Matt says:
At least Source will finally get some lighting improvements and real cloth sim.
13/10/2010 at 18:35 AS says:
As a lifelong DotA player, I’m excited for exactly the reasons stated in the article – the chance to build a community that’ll be able to positively help others in the game. It’s easier to try to help the willing than the trolls joining a side to deliberately sabatoge you.
While there’s nothing new content-wise and/as I expect that most of the patches will probably be lifted straight from WC3 DotA itself, DotA 2 is serving as a proving ground for the Steamworks technology much like TF2 has done for a while with hats. And maybe shaping the Source engine to be have a preset 3D isometric view available for modders.
I may not be the best player around, but I’ll certainly be signing up to coach the willing – it comes with a healthy dose of humble pie and realization when you try to explain something you take for granted, and try to remember how it was explained to you.
P.S. Merlini is Zeus, Action-RTS is better than MOBA, even if only slightly better.
13/10/2010 at 18:44 AS says:
To expound on patches, Icefrog took on DotA:Allstars at 6.00, it’s now at 6.69 today and in a few months will hit 6.70 with a couple more heroes, balance tweaks and slight map edits to keep things interesting. Each 6.0x release is a “minor” release possibly with many a,b,c versions for quick bugfixes and the 6.x releases are the “major” releases – although that’s mostly to keep track, heroes and items tend to enter when it’s ready.
13/10/2010 at 19:39 Fumarole says:
You’re seven years old?
13/10/2010 at 19:53 AS says:
Very funny – shouldn’t have left myself open for that.
13/10/2010 at 18:36 skinlo says:
Having never heard of DoTA before until this was first rumoured, I think it looks awesome :D
13/10/2010 at 18:37 pakoito says:
“The idea is to have everything a player does in or out of game tie back into their online identity.”
This includes posting on forums, contributing to strategy guides, which seems to be intending to keep the community all in one place, and making it much easier for players to get into the game.
RealID trying to get rid of the trolls again? yeah, no.
13/10/2010 at 18:52 Delusibeta says:
The problem RealID had was that you were forced to give out what you put in as your First Name and Surname when you were signing up for Battle.net, which was a bit of a security risk, especially for trolling purposes. The difference here is that I doubt Steam will force you to give out names, just your nick. And, to be honest, I don’t mind using my nick everywhere I go.
However, logging in with my Steam credentials everywhere… yeah no.
13/10/2010 at 18:59 Baka says:
Seriously, where is this recent influx of ill-founded angry internet men coming from recently?
Imagine the leaguecraft-guides worked into League of Legends, or direct access to elitist jerks from your WoW capital or whatever your favorite game and it’s favorite internetsite is combined. How is that a thing to complain about?
What does that have to do with being forced to tell everyone your full name and therefore your home-adress etc?
There’s really a lot of “I hate that new stuff is coming out!” going on in the comments recently. :/
13/10/2010 at 22:55 DJ Phantoon says:
Don’t turn this into a political discussion.
Just note that some people value liberty and privacy far far above sanitized speech.
14/10/2010 at 08:09 Kevin says:
Refreshen my memory about Blizzard’s Real ID: Was there anything to stop people from putting down “Rusty Shackleford” as their real name?
13/10/2010 at 18:38 Amanda says:
Hollywood remake of a small, niche indie fil… I mean game. It’s a valid way of doing things, and if the original ain’t broke, why try to fix it? It’ll certainly find a much larger audience with Valve behind it.
13/10/2010 at 18:40 Rich says:
My arguments that Valve are indeed innovative seem to be void with regards to this one. It’s a straight reimplementation.
13/10/2010 at 18:44 AndrewC says:
There’s different types of innovation. Just as Halo 3 won an Edge innovation award for the amazing things it did with online while keeping the core game Exactly The Same, just imagine if Valve managed to find a way to make their DOTA have a friendly community?
13/10/2010 at 18:53 Urael says:
It’s ok, Rich. no-one was taking them seriously anyway. :P
13/10/2010 at 21:25 Rich says:
Oh, such rapier wit.
13/10/2010 at 22:40 Urael says:
Actually, I landed an absolute beauty of an Autism joke earlier. Clearly, I’m on a roll. :)
13/10/2010 at 18:43 Jon says:
I love HoN but hate the community, I’ll be watching this closely.
13/10/2010 at 18:44 cloned says:
Really looking forward to this one. Only played some HoN. Really enjoyed the game, but the community was really horrible ( I played Q3 for 4 years and I thought this community was bad in the end! ). But still not sure if I will buy it because you need so much time to get into :/
13/10/2010 at 18:44 Hallgrim says:
Man I was really hoping to see some innovation from valve in this genre. LoL can be fun (needlessly steep learning curve aside), but I’ll be damned if I have a minimum of 30 minutes (usually > 45) to dedicate to a SINGLE MATCH of a competitive multiplayer game.
14/10/2010 at 16:21 StenL says:
How can you possibly say that LoL has a steep learning curve ? Unless you have severe mental disabilities, there should be nothing so complex you couldn’t figure out in a couple of games.
13/10/2010 at 18:45 Barman1942 says:
Tbh, what really interests me about this is the Source engine updates. Every time Valve has released a new game recently, it’s been with some significant upgrades to Source. The AI director in L4D, the updates with Portal 2 (did Alien Swarm bring any updates with it?). I can see it all culminating in Ep3.
13/10/2010 at 19:11 Matt says:
Alien Swarm brought TileGen.
13/10/2010 at 20:06 skinlo says:
Some upgrades on the lighting as well.
13/10/2010 at 18:46 the_fanciest_of_pants says:
Mmmm.. Never was keen on DotA or it’s ilk. Valve will have to do something pretty special to rope me in to this.
Also the thought of them releasing DotA 2 before Episode 3 makes me grind my teeth just a bit.
13/10/2010 at 18:46 TotalBiscuit says:
The outright hostility to this extremely popular mod+it’s worthy clones is almost as funny as the hostility of their communities to people that suck.
How often do we see complaints about games getting dumbed down and yet a game with a high skill ceiling and quite a bit to learn is shunned? Tell me, where exactly in the narrow spectrum of your personal difficulty desires should all future games fall?
With that I’m going to play another game of LoL.
13/10/2010 at 19:15 pkt-zer0 says:
How often do we see complaints about games getting dumbed down and yet a game with a high skill ceiling and quite a bit to learn is shunned?
Ever heard the term “easy to learn, difficult to master”? Accessibility and depth aren’t opposites. DotA seems needlessly overcomplicated and not particularly deep strategy-wise, though I’m not sure if that’s actually true. I’m not particularly eager to try and find out, since that involves tolerating the community for a couple of months. The game’s more trouble than it’s worth, basically.
13/10/2010 at 19:22 Quizboy says:
How often do we see complaints about games getting dumbed down and yet a game with a high skill ceiling and quite a bit to learn is shunned?
It’s almost as if – stay with me here – these were the opinions of different people and not the gigantic quivering fleshlump of multitudinous contradictory opinions we all know the Internet really is. What a world that would be.
13/10/2010 at 19:58 Wilson says:
@TotalBiscuit – I’d say it’s not the difficulty, it’s the behaviour of the community towards people who aren’t very good. If people keep losing games because of newbies they should complain and bitch about the match-making rather than attacking the weak teammate. Just because someone ‘sucks’, as you put it, doesn’t give anyone a right to be a tosser about it.
13/10/2010 at 20:40 Lilliput King says:
@pkt
They’re actually quite deep on both a tactical and a strategic level. Very clever little design. Reminds of Street Fighter a little bit.
I completely understand your decision re: the community, though. It certainly requires a thick skin. Sadly after so many years on the internet mine is positively reptilian.
13/10/2010 at 22:56 Jesus says:
LoL is rubbish.
13/10/2010 at 18:46 Kaiven says:
Prepare for more TF2 Hats
13/10/2010 at 18:47 Snall says:
Conquering America? You guys don’t even have guns. I hear you have padded trees now though, so there’s that!
Also I think I’m like the only guy who never played this damn mod…
13/10/2010 at 21:14 Tei says:
Conquering USA is very doable, you just need to have a Good Plan. Also, If can’t be done in one phase, can be done in two.
Don’t truth anyone telling is not possible. Do this. Get a very hot women enter a room full of enginers and make she say “I have a idea, but I think is imposible and no one can made it real”. “How you will conquer USA with the resources of UK?”. The engineers will launch to the idea like sharks. From there, you just have to wait.
13/10/2010 at 21:31 Starky says:
As a Engineer I fully agree with this, if a hot woman asks me I’ll figure it out somehow. Either that or I will make it up and lie.
14/10/2010 at 02:53 Luckylad says:
As an engineer I also endorse this message that we are great at fixing problems but even better at bullshitting into exactly what you want to hear.
13/10/2010 at 18:47 Lobotomist says:
Cmmon people!
They started developing this in 2009. How could they know there will be 3-4 copies of DOTA around by now ?
Also. Can you blame anyone for taking insanely popular mod and turning it into a full pledged game ?
I admit. Not big fan of DOTA myself. Its bit to elitist and hardcore for me to even start.
But the game surely have following.
13/10/2010 at 18:54 pakoito says:
HoN, Demigod and LoL were around already by 2009. What they wouldn’t know was the impact of those games, HoN has grown big on comp players (the ones they want to steal back and will easily), LoL appeals to the casuals and Demigod failed.
13/10/2010 at 18:48 Lucas says:
So its not a new game or a real sequel at all, not even a clone, just a reimplementation? That’s even worse than trademarking a game they don’t have any rights to. This is almost game-identity-theft. I’m really shocked and disgusted by Valve doing this.
13/10/2010 at 18:55 Barman1942 says:
You do understand that they hired the guy who made the original mod, right? And that he’s the one whose making this, right? You do get that?
13/10/2010 at 19:22 jackflash says:
lol
13/10/2010 at 20:02 StormTec says:
Looks like someone just read the title and skimmed the comments before posting…
13/10/2010 at 20:11 skinlo says:
Seriously lrn2read and use your head!
14/10/2010 at 01:16 DJ Phantoon says:
ohmygod! Somebody! Somebody come quick! Bill Gates is using the Microsoft name without permission! Oh no!
13/10/2010 at 18:52 Longrat says:
Well that’s an anticlimax. I was hoping valve would bring some new flare to a stagnant genre (there really isn’t much more you can do to make it evolve at this point). Guess I was wrong!
On an unrelated note: http://icefrogtruth.blogspot.com/
13/10/2010 at 18:58 Barman1942 says:
Interesting blog. Is there any real truth to it? Do we even know if the person who wrote it is a Valve employee?
13/10/2010 at 19:00 Urael says:
Ooh, interesting. So there IS something rotten in the heart of Valve – I KNEW IT! Odd that this is the second whistle-blowing post I’ve read tonight, though:
http://www.spacesimcentral.com/gaming-f20/guy-rants-about-and-bit-about-tor-t1317.html
Hurrah for the little guys that speak out!
13/10/2010 at 19:09 Cyrenic says:
@Longrat
I disagree. I think there’s a lot of space for innovation in the DotA genre. New game types, etc.
13/10/2010 at 19:19 cyrenic says:
@longrat
Read the blog after my quick response about innovation in the genre. Wow. It lines up with everything I’ve heard about the guy. Though I thought it was common knowledge he worked on HoN for a while, and was declined a job working on LoL when he demanded huge amounts of control.
13/10/2010 at 19:19 Longrat says:
Well, I can’t say the guy is right about valve’s dark transformation, but I can see the guy is right about icefrog working riot and S2. I also heard rumors about his planning to sue S2. When you put all these facts together, it doesn’t paint a pretty picture.
13/10/2010 at 20:51 Anon says:
@Urael
“That’s what happens when you go from being a shoe salesman to directing a game you didn’t play, isn’t it?”
What a massive cunt. Even if the author of the blog is legitimately a Valve employee his arrogance and ad homs have pretty much nullified any point he was seeking to make.
13/10/2010 at 21:33 Rich says:
Well that’s Urael. Anything that suggests Valve is an evil Microsoftesque idea leach is gospel. Anything else is fanboyism.
The idea that spotting something that looks to be a good idea and making it your own, by bringing new people into your team is innovation, is entirely alien. As I said, I’m a research scientist, and that’s what is done in science all the time. It’s not like the new people are going to be kicked out as soon as this is released. They’ll just be integrated into the rest of Valve, expanding their knowledge and skill base.
13/10/2010 at 22:42 Urael says:
FANBOI!!!
14/10/2010 at 04:31 ed says:
“something rotten in the heart of Valve”? You’d be crazy to buy into that blog post. It’s much more likely written by whoever wrote this: http://icefrogslife.tk/ . Looks like there’s at least one jealous\obsessive\stalkerey person in the DoTA community. Besides, the entire gist of the post seems weak. The guy has some experience working on other somewhat related games? OMG, it’s like stealing trade secrets! Pfft. If anything that experience would help him get the job.
I seriously doubt someone would risk a job at Valve to besmirch the character of a fellow employee in some vague and trivial way on a blog.
13/10/2010 at 18:55 tim says:
“Valve says it plans to devote as much time and updates to Dota 2 as Team Fortress 2 has received over the years, so it could well be a game that evolves over time, and seemingly one whose evolution will be driven by the community of dedicated players.”
Yeah they said that about Left 4 Dead as well. I’m waiting a few years to make sure DOTA 3 doesn’t come out and then put an end to all support.
13/10/2010 at 19:41 DrGonzo says:
It’s not like a free add on just came out for Left 4 Dead 1? Ungrateful pricks on the internet don’t deserve the support that Valve give them.
13/10/2010 at 20:20 skinlo says:
Still but hurt I see. Seriously , get over it. Theres a real life outside of your computer.
14/10/2010 at 09:59 James T says:
“Still but hurt I see. Seriously , get over it. Theres a real life outside of your computer.”
Wow, he’s talking about videogames on a videogame blog, what a loser.
Good on Valve for their ongoing dedication to bug-catching in their old games, but after L4D, I have no reason to trust the “we’re going to flesh this out with new content, just like TF2″ talk. Fool me once…
14/10/2010 at 12:50 Matt says:
Don’t worry, Valve is pathologically incapable of releasing a game with the number 3 in the title, so you should be safe.
13/10/2010 at 18:55 DarkFenix says:
Played DotA back when it was nothing more than a custom map on Warcraft 3. It was unforgivingly hardcore and elitist then, and has remained so to this day. Seeing the same thing made again gives me a huge feeling of ‘meh’.
13/10/2010 at 19:19 Comment System says:
It makes me said that DOTA got recognized while the superior contemporary mod, Tides Of Blood, faded in obscurity.
Tides Of Blood showed me that a game of this sub-genre could be fun and engaging, I would never know from playing DOTA, which is like watching paint dry. I don’t have any faith in this IceFrog dude, but hopefully Valve can help him improve this game.
It is also really weird that they are making money on a game mod that someone else created and then passed on to IceFrog for maintenance/additions, but I think that has already been discussed at length elsewhere.
13/10/2010 at 19:20 Comment System says:
It makes me sad that DOTA got recognized while the superior contemporary mod, Tides Of Blood, faded in obscurity.
Tides Of Blood showed me that a game of this sub-genre could be fun and engaging, I would never know from playing DOTA, which is like watching paint dry. I don’t have any faith in this IceFrog dude, but hopefully Valve can help him improve this game.
It is also really weird that they are making money on a game mod that someone else created and then passed on to IceFrog for maintenance/additions, but I think that has already been discussed at length elsewhere.
13/10/2010 at 19:44 DrGonzo says:
I’m disappointed too. I thought Valve would take Dota and make it more skill based rather than just about knowing all the stats. Was hoping it would all be based on skill shots and everyone having flat damage but oh well.
As for making a game with IceFrog. Well Dota wasn’t the first game of it’s sort anyway, it dates back to Starcraft so I imagine that’s why it isn’t an issue. Also, the vast majority of the content was added by IceFrog I think.
13/10/2010 at 20:32 AS says:
There were a lot of maps released at the same time that managed to fade away, to the regret of a few. Tides of Blood seemed to have a line drawn in the sand with a final version, and whether it was the cause or effect of the end of Tides of Blood eventually falling out of the scene who knows. It’d be fun to revisit the old maps, but it’s hard to find someone that’s willing to play it, or reinstall WC3 just for a few games.
13/10/2010 at 18:55 Tei says:
From: me
To: All DOTA fans
The world is giving you another oportunity to build a nice community. Is not the technology, is not the game, is you.
Every decission count. Feeding the troll. Being friendly or unfriendly to some attitudes.
I hope you guys have good luck and this time DOTA grows to a excellent community.
I hope for you guys the best of the best. YOUR gameplay, with a EXCELLENT engine, and you guys (I am tempted to say, excellent people, but thats your decission, not mine).
Good Luck!
13/10/2010 at 19:48 DrGonzo says:
Dota fans inevitable response. -’Shut up fag!’
Or something similarly stupid and homophobic.
13/10/2010 at 21:42 Manley Pointer says:
Kind of funny how most Eve alliances are just as elitist/racist/homophobic as dota players, but they get a lot less flak for it from the general gaming community.
13/10/2010 at 21:53 Tei says:
@Manley Pointer:
My experience with the EVE community is that I would pay for the game just to chat with these people. Sure, there are bad apples, but you don’t have to interact much with these people in empire. Also, since you play in a corp, you mostly interact with your guildmates that will probably be cool people and help you. I am tempted to say that EVE has the best of the best of the game communities, the best people, but I can defend that idea with hard data.
13/10/2010 at 23:32 Cael says:
I kinda want to get in on this so that I can be an asshole to new players.
14/10/2010 at 02:44 Anonymousity says:
@DrGonzo I’m a long time dota player and I wish the community was nicer too, people are individuals and it’s not nice to make broad sweeping judgements, regardless of the broad evidence there is.
13/10/2010 at 19:06 pakoito says:
First S2 response by [S2]Nigma, the community manager:
“Hey guys.
Like all of you, all of us here are also really excited to see just what DotA 2 has in store.
I think a lot of you guys think that this announcement is coming to us as some sort of dramatic surprise, and that we’re all currently jumping out the nearest window. I’d like to say at this point that this isn’t true We’ve all been keeping up with this very diligently.
In a market with many similar games (DotA/LoL/HoN and eventually DotA2), the consumer will (hopefully) end up buying the best game, or the game that fits their preference more.
It’s our job to make sure that Heroes of Newerth will be the best it can possibly be.
As Maliken once said, competition is a good thing. It encourages us to work harder and produce the best game possible. That’s what we’re here for.
If you think we’re sitting here cowering in fear… well… too bad”
13/10/2010 at 19:07 pakoito says:
S2 are the guys behind HoN. Maliken is Marc DeForest, the owner and one of the designers at S2.
13/10/2010 at 19:14 Burningpet says:
Too bad its me Valve.
never played dota, but from what i can see in its latest patch notes, icefrog been taking notes from the compettetion, especially demigod with its fantastic flag capturing system. hope to see things like that in Dota 2
13/10/2010 at 19:16 TotalBiscuit says:
Fantastic flag capturing system? *snort*
Don’t fix what isn’t broken.
13/10/2010 at 20:11 Burningpet says:
Cause sitting in the lane last hitting and denying for 5 minutes is top notch action… right…
There is alot to fix in dota.
13/10/2010 at 20:21 DrGonzo says:
The flag capture system is awesome. It requires you to work as a team and play well to get a boost in stats. Not just farm the other teams noob and buy the best items.
13/10/2010 at 19:07 DuckSauce says:
Liked League of Legends, never played DotA, concerning what I hear, I don’t really want to :P I’ll stick with League of Legends, thanks anyway valve.
13/10/2010 at 19:08 Sagan says:
Hmm disappointing, that it’s just a remake. I enjoyed DotA a little, but not enough that I would be interested in a straight remake.
Also @RPS: “the maps” – don’t you mean “the map”?
13/10/2010 at 19:11 jjs says:
Meet the Heroes, anyone?
13/10/2010 at 19:12 Ricc says:
Half-Life 2: Episode 3
That is all, thank you.
13/10/2010 at 19:26 DestinedCruz says:
As long as we see the perfect Valve-style balance in the gameplay that doesn’t exist in DotA or HoN, this should be the MoBA game to rule them all.
13/10/2010 at 21:48 Manley Pointer says:
I’m not sure if you’re making a joke about how TF2 is unbalanced, or not. I would say the selling point of dota is really variety, rather than balance; the diversity of heroes keeps the game interesting, even if some are obviously OP.
Personally I find default dota gameplay pretty boring and prefer allrandom deathmatch (when people die, they come back as a different hero), which eliminates some of the problems with vanilla mode by allowing you to eliminate certain heroes from the game, and preventing people from always picking their favorite OP heroes. HoN doesn’t include this, so I hope dota2 will pick up the slack, and include some options to appease the sizeable deathmatch community from the original game. It always mystified me that the dota clones didn’t include dm, as it seemed about as popular as the vanilla mode, judging from the games that popped up in b.net’s custom game finder.
13/10/2010 at 19:32 Severian says:
I’m also disappointed by this. I was hoping that Valve would be putting the full force of its creative empire behind revising and refining the Dota-concept – but *not* simply releasing Dota in a slicker skin. Demigod, for all its faults, attempted to innovate and I thought Value would be pushing the envelope further.
13/10/2010 at 19:32 perilisk says:
Re: picture. I wonder if the carpet matches the drapes?
13/10/2010 at 19:38 Jannakar says:
And what’s with this:
“that Source is getting an update with this release, with new lighting, and the all-important true-cloth simulation, the lack of which has been holding back gaming for years.”
Jeez, non-asshole company updates own engine with semi-interesting tech and we just get snide comments.
Can’t you be happy about anything Walker? Why is everybody so ~bitter~ around here?
13/10/2010 at 19:38 Theo says:
@Barman1942
“You do understand that they hired the guy who made the original mod, right? And that he’s the one whose making this, right? You do get that?”
Unfortunately, you don’t know what you’re talking about when you say that. Take a look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_the_ancients#Development and you’ll see that IceFrog is just ONE of the MANY people that worked at making DOTA what it is today.
Does IceFrog want to create DOTA: Source for Valve? Great! Him assuming all the credit for DOTA by having Valve publish their game as DOTA 2, that’s outrageous and Steve Mescon did the right thing by suing. I hope he wins too. What IceFrog and Valve are doing is utterly despicable and no matter how good DOTA 2 could be, it doesn’t excuse their actions.
13/10/2010 at 20:24 skinlo says:
They aren’t doing anything??
13/10/2010 at 20:32 DrGonzo says:
If they wanted the name they should have called LoL DOTA. The other thing I find hilarious is that they filed for a trademark on the name to counter Valve. Then they said it should be owned by the comminity, not a business. Seems pretty hypocritical to me.
13/10/2010 at 20:33 DrGonzo says:
If they wanted the name they should have called LoL DOTA. The other thing I find hilarious is that they filed for a trademark on the name to counter Valve. Then they said it should be owned by the community, not a business. Seems pretty hypocritical to me.
13/10/2010 at 21:10 Lilliput King says:
Well the idea is to take the claim away from Valve. I think this is the quote:
“if we were to obtain the trademark, we would keep the game and the DotA name freely available to the mod community.”
Seems pretty straightforward. They wouldn’t stop people from using it if they got the name.
13/10/2010 at 19:43 mod the world says:
The only question that remains: What will come first, Episode 3 or DOTA 3?
13/10/2010 at 19:44 Sobric says:
I’m showing my outrageous bias here, but while playing LoL I couldn’t help but feel that the game would be dramatically improved with a 3rd person camera and WASD controls, with mouse aim and proper sight lines.
The most exciting thing about the DotA-alikes (MOBA’s or whatever) are the in-match levelling up, the gear and the mix of heroes. It’s like a really short MMO. The laning, the RTS view and controls: meh.
13/10/2010 at 20:02 Wilson says:
@Sobric – That sounds pretty cool to me. I expect DotA vets can tell me why it would never work, but I can’t see a desperate need to an RTS style camera. I tried LoL but after playing a couple of games it just didn’t grab me. I didn’t feel especially awesome at any point and it didn’t feel like I had much impact on the game (probably because I was new and only had the loosest idea what I was doing, but still). I like the general idea behind the game, but the execution always seems a bit bleh to me. Like it’s this epic battle idea that’s been cut down to groups of five or so mobs attacking each other down a few lanes while big heroes slap each other back and forth.
13/10/2010 at 20:41 DrGonzo says:
Get Monday Night Combat. That’s essentially what your describing. But I like it being top down, I would rather it was all skill shots though. Skill shots are spell that you have to aim, rather than just clicking on the enemy. I would also rather they took out items and levelling personally as I think they are mechanics just added to alienate noobs.
13/10/2010 at 21:01 AS says:
One of the core concepts of the game is map awareness and knowing where everyone else is, due to its roots in RTS, but that’s a relic that could be removed. LoL has a neat way of writing this out as being a summoner that brings a champion to fight, and you’re directing the champion, but either way is valid. I’d imagine it’d break down into the old gamepad vs. kb/m argument if they gave the option of a first person view and top-down where being able to see someone sneak behind you is an advantage over hearing movement behind.
Would be interested in an Alien Swarm control scheme and how it compares to the usual clicking inherent in DotA, although heroes that control more than one unit might be a problem.
13/10/2010 at 19:45 Eclipse says:
What’s up with Valve screwing up original DotA developers now at Riot Games?
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/08/19/riot-games-counter-files-for-dota-trademark/
:( sad story
13/10/2010 at 19:57 pakoito says:
They’re bathing in $$$ with their pay2win game. Nobody cares about them.
13/10/2010 at 20:56 DrGonzo says:
I really don’t see how Riot are in the right here. They both have the same claim on the word to be honest.
13/10/2010 at 20:09 Solcry says:
@Theo
Aaaand thats what you got for basing all your information off of Wikipedia. IceFrog took a shell of a game and expanded it into something huge – Guinsoo did lay the foundations, but the game as we know it today is entirely of IceFrog’s making.
13/10/2010 at 20:13 Jad says:
Hmm. I have said before, and was preparing to say this on the “pre-announcement” post this morning, that I do not agree with all the people yelling for more Half-Life, for news on Episode 3 before anything new.
I say this because while I love Half-Life, I’m not a big fan of sequels, especially from devs as talented as Valve. Portal showed me that Valve can do games that are brilliant and innovative and like nothing else out there, and if relentless fan-demanded focus on more more more Half-Life had somehow prevented the release of Portal, the gaming world would be worse off. I have similar feelings for Left 4 Dead, although that game is clearly not as perfect or mind-bending as Portal, and is a bit more controversial.
Anyway, as I said, one of my rallying cries has been: less Half-Life, more new Valve games.
This, however, is not what I had in mind.
A remake of someone else’s game? A game that is notoriously inaccessible? A sequel that, frankly, doesn’t need a sequel — or rather, already has two remake/sequels on the market? Portal, this is not. Left 4 Dead, this is not. Heck, Team Fortress 2, this is not.
Waste of time and talent from one of the greatest developers in the industry, this is.
13/10/2010 at 22:06 Theo says:
@Jad:
“Portal showed me that Valve can do games that are brilliant and innovative and like nothing else out there”
Well, Valve didn’t have much to do with the innovation behind Portal. The whole concept was developed by a team of DigiPen students that created a small little game called Narbacular Drop during their studies at DigiPen. What Valve did was to hire the whole team that created Narbacular Drop, have them use Source for shinier graphics, add a simulacrum of a story and, voila, Portal.
I mean, yes, Valve could have not believed in the concept and not hired the Narbacular Drop team, so they deserve some credit for hiring them. But from that, to saying that Valve, as a corporation, were the innovative ones, is a joke… and a pretty bad one at that.
13/10/2010 at 22:29 Celkiasian says:
When people talk about the innovation of Portal they mean a whole lot more than the portal mechanics.
Games in other established genres share even more similarities but no one claims they can’t be innovative or that their studios didn’t do anything since their was another game with men shooting men.
14/10/2010 at 02:53 DJ Phantoon says:
Except Valve also hired Old Man Murray to write for it. And I’m sure the team from Digipen benefited greatly from the experience from the people already at Valve. Plus, didn’t they say they hadn’t had any plans to make a new game based on it until they got hired?
Portal wouldn’t have existed, or it wouldn’t have been as great, at least. Note this isn’t the first time they’ve done this. They did the same thing all the way back with Counter-Strike.
13/10/2010 at 20:15 Adrian says:
The reason I think old DotA players are so happy about this game is that everything is untouched, and it has IceFrog developing it, and as there are kind players (yes, they do exist) the support system that valve is working at will make alot of people happy, and to say Dota 2 is HoN, is actually quite wrong, since they have alot of diffrentials, since all changes will be done as if it would have been regular DotA, not HoN, and believe me there are alot of changes done to HoN that DotA hasn’t.
But IMO I just can’t wait, I play HoN and LoL, and I played DotA, but now with the new Source engine (OMFG!!! HYPE!) and the amazing Steamworks, and with my indestructible love for Valve and their work, I can’t just simply wait, GG everyone IceFrog is God-Like! ;)
13/10/2010 at 20:18 The Geek says:
Come on TB, you should know by now:
You can please all of the people some of the time.
Some of the people all the time.
And the Internet people never.
13/10/2010 at 20:18 Lachlan says:
That link mentioning a copyright claim intrigues me. There must be some impressive legal manoeuvring going on behind the scenes here, given this is a commercial release of a game that explicitly identifies itself as the sequel to another game’s mod.
Blizzard must be kicking themselves for not claiming ownership of all mod content, for just this situation. It will be interesting to see if EULAs start anticipating this, if they don’t already. Perhaps Blizzard took the view that a new DOTA game would just be free publicity for their own titles…in which case their new colleagues post-merger may be less forgiving.
On the other hand, if ever there was a company that could afford a major legal battle it would be Valve.
Something to watch, I think.
13/10/2010 at 22:50 ScubaV says:
Yeah, I would’ve thought Blizzard would have some sort of claim on all mods produced in their EULA (like in SC2). Even if it isn’t legally enforceable I’d expect them to at least take some sort of legal action if only for show.
14/10/2010 at 01:56 Nick says:
I suspect they can only claim copyright of the actual mod using their engine, rather than the idea of the mod itself.
Sort of like in music.. if you write a song and then record it for a label, that label owns that recording (mechanical copyright I think.. been a while) but not the song.
14/10/2010 at 03:02 Anonymousity says:
You do realise that companies want to foster the strength of the online part of the game, because it works in their favour as a stem vs piracy and helps sales. Claiming any mod content would butcher their mod community before it started.
13/10/2010 at 20:24 Dodo says:
We already got 100 copies of Wolfenstein
13/10/2010 at 20:25 Dodo says:
f the reply
13/10/2010 at 20:27 Sébastien Richer says:
I’m simply very excited about this and I’m very eager to play it. Valve has never let us down, I doubt they would start now.
13/10/2010 at 20:36 MrEvilGuy says:
They’re gonna be hard pressed to outdo league of legends…
13/10/2010 at 21:32 Anon says:
I can’t tell if this is sarcasm or not. LoL is an atriocious game.
14/10/2010 at 02:26 MrEvilGuy says:
LoL is an amazing game. League of Legends took the dota formula and made a game out of it instead of copy paste bullshit.
LoL worked because it was the original creator who made it, not just the guy who maintains it then gets paid to make ripoffs.
14/10/2010 at 06:49 Froibo says:
Oh wait you are serious, let me laugh louder.
14/10/2010 at 21:36 Anon says:
The ‘guy who made it’ was god awful at balancing and improving gameplay mechanics. It’s well documented that Icefrog made DotA what it is, from being just another shitty WC3 custom map to one of the most played free mods. I don’t even play DotA or DotA clones anymore, just incase you thought this was some biased opinion.
League of Legends is what happens when people who have a god awful concept of game design mechanics try to shoehorn a tested concept into the microtransaction model, i.e. a mediocre AoS-like (at best) that whores itself out to ex-WoW burnouts and kawaii uguu~~ weaboos.
13/10/2010 at 20:40 Dozer says:
Hooray! Hooray! John spells Defence with a C not an S in the opening sentence and the tags! If you weren’t already my favourite sporadically-bearded games journalist already, John, you would be now!
13/10/2010 at 20:42 Sigma Draconis says:
Did this announcement seem sort of…low-key to anyone else?
Anyway, if this is basically going to be DotA: Source, I’m alright with that. I’m anticipating whatever ideas that Valve and Icefrog are coming up with for DotA 2, be it community-wise, or gameplay.
13/10/2010 at 20:43 Dean says:
AI but no single-player campaign? Damn.
I mean, in many ways, the game is more suited to single-player (a single, persistent hero). Seems a missed opportunity. Would love to play a game with mechanics like this, but have no interest in multiplayer.
13/10/2010 at 21:00 DrGonzo says:
You don’t have a single persistent hero. And it would be boring levelling up one character for an entire campaign because the characters only have 4 abilities.
Though I agree I would love a single player campaign, it would be a considerable amount of work.
13/10/2010 at 20:43 savagerose says:
Except there’s this sketchy thing where, as far as I can tell, Icefrog has no relation to the original DoTA; due to the (really quite cool) way that creators of WC3 and SC maps constantly build off of each others’ creations, DOTA: Allstars was based on a map by someone else, which was then based on the original DoTA apparently by someone called Eul. So it doesn’t seem clear at all that the name DoTA, created by Eul, now belongs to Icefrog / Valve. At best it seems ambiguous.
source: Wikipedia’s DOTA : Development
13/10/2010 at 21:54 Starky says:
As has been said in this thread IceFrog took a foundation and build a castle on top of it.
It’s the difference between Hovertank 3D and Wolfenstien 3D or Doom.
Frankly I’m not a huge fan of DotA, or any of it’s clones, but credit where credit is due.
13/10/2010 at 20:58 Jan Schaffer says:
Am I wrong when I vaguely remember valve saying that TF2 would still have gameplay depth like tf/tfc when the new visual style was first revealed and ppl were kinda worried about how it would play?
Then it turned out that while on paper tf2 and tf have mostly the same specs, tf2 is incredibly shallow compared to the original, but much much more friendly towards new players.
So eh, maybe they’re doing the same with dota?
13/10/2010 at 22:02 DrGonzo says:
Tf2 isn’t more shallow in my opinion. But it is easier on noobs. I would like a similar approach. Dota has a lot of silly mechanics that aren’t fun. There is an attitude that Dota is a proper competitive game and League of Legends isn’t. It’s completely untrue, both are equally competitive, just that LoL is actually fun and fast paced.
It’s true that League of Legends isn’t competitive until level 30 though, but from there on out everyone is on a level playing field and can play ranked matches.
13/10/2010 at 22:14 Anon says:
I’ve always felt that TF2 has greater depth than TFC (competitively and on pubs). Though I’m a QWTF player at heart and always loathed TFC, still do in fact.
13/10/2010 at 23:11 Bruce Willis says:
By ‘Gameplay-Depth’ you mean a pile of grenades, glitch-abusing, and a painstakingly-developed disturbingly robotic aim, right?
13/10/2010 at 20:59 Shakermaker says:
Posted this in the forum, but I might post it here as well because it seems relevant:
http://icefrogtruth.blogspot.com/2010/10/truth.html
Not sure what this is.
13/10/2010 at 21:01 Hmm-Hmm. says:
One would have thought they could do.. well.. more than this. But then again, maybe renewing DOTA without adding anything is plenty for the fans.
13/10/2010 at 21:09 Julian says:
In fairness, League of Legends has a relatively friendly community. At least, it’s better than the spiteful, racist console kiddies on XBOX Live. Riot has been fairly proactive about taking action against seriously abusive players, and the matchmaking system is good enough that you’re never completely out of your depth. They know that this genre can bring out the worst in people and they’re at least trying to do something about it. They took out denies because it’s stupid and counterintuitive and damages the flow of the game.
That attitude of progressivism towards the genre and focus on accessibility and community-building is part of why I’m so hype on LoL, and not really that interested in DotA 2 or HoN. I’d love to be proven wrong about DotA 2, but if it’s just DotA: Source with no effort to rethink design choices or add any new ideas I’m not really sure why we should care about it when there are other people trying to do something new with the genre.
13/10/2010 at 21:33 yutt says:
I’m sure the Episode 3 team was shifted to working on DOTA. It isn’t like Valve has multiple teams.
13/10/2010 at 23:28 TDM says:
That is a mighty slow team they have working on EP3, then, if this also means completely separate teams did L4D / TF2.
13/10/2010 at 21:50 Theo says:
@Solcry
“Aaaand thats what you got for basing all your information off of Wikipedia.”
I used the Wikipedia link for its convenience. Everything that’s in there can be found in multiple other places but I don’t think that anybody would have trudged through 5 to 10 links to get a picture of the whole “odyssey”.
“IceFrog took a shell of a game and expanded it into something huge – Guinsoo did lay the foundations, but the game as we know it today is entirely of IceFrog’s making.”
Let’s assume it’s so, even though that’s rather subjective. From an ethics point of view, what IceFrog did is at least iffy, if not downright wrong and pathetic. Without the work done by the people that came before him and all the community’s contributions, he couldn’t have had the same results. Saying that because he did most of the work (which, as I was saying before, is debatable, depending on who you’re talking to), he’s entitled to everything (in this case the rights to the trademark) is wrong, period. If he wanted all the rights and the glory, he should have done it all by himself. By getting involved in a community project and then hijacking it for his own personal financial benefit is a complete travesty.
13/10/2010 at 22:06 Starky says:
The whole thing is a bit iffy, but that is what you get when you take a mod, which is usually a sprawling community project and try and copyright/trademark it.
The only time it ever works is when you up and hire the ENTIRE team (CS and portal) so that no one is left who might have a claim of ownership against you.
13/10/2010 at 22:21 Theo says:
@Starky
“The only time it ever works is when you up and hire the ENTIRE team (CS and portal) so that no one is left who might have a claim of ownership against you.”
Yup, that’s the way to go. In this case, they couldn’t have done it for multiple reasons, but instead of letting it go and focusing on something else, they decided to behave like pillocks and do this.
It’s their decision, and they’ll have to live with the consequences, whatever they’ll be, but what bothers me is that many people seem to jump to their defense, or at least enable them by saying “They’re Valve, they could do no wrong, I’m sure it will turn out to be an awesome game”. Gamers, on one hand are so protective of their hobby, and on the other hand they allow the developers and publishers to treat them like dirt by pulling stuff like this. The first comparison that comes to mind it that of an abused wife that protects his abusive husband from the police because she is afraid that if he’ll be sent to prison, there won’t have anyone to bring money home. That, combined with a little of Stockholm syndrome, describes the majority of the gamers perfectly, in my opinion.
13/10/2010 at 22:34 pipman3000 says:
truly this is just as bad as some dude beating his wife.
spoken just like a dude who’s never beaten his wife before.
13/10/2010 at 22:33 Mark says:
I wonder if they found a solution to the “only jerks and assholes play this genre” problem.
13/10/2010 at 22:35 pipman3000 says:
if there aren’t hats i will kill someone (okay actually i won’t do anything at all)
13/10/2010 at 23:02 Bruce Willis says:
Honestly I couldn’t give a shit about DOTA2. I don’t even know what it is aside from some Warcraft mod or something.
However, they will be releasing an updated version of the source engine and that is fucking awesome. Can’t wait to get my grubby little hands on it and pop it into garrysmod or something.
13/10/2010 at 23:12 rocketman71 says:
Can’t say I like this paragraph at all:
This includes posting on forums, contributing to strategy guides, which seems to be intending to keep the community all in one place, and making it much easier for players to get into the game. And indeed incentivising other players to make that easy. There’s even a “coaching system” where veteran players can train newer players.
Too much MMO for me.
13/10/2010 at 23:23 jaheira says:
“and the all-important true-cloth simulation, the lack of which has been holding back gaming for years.”
Well … yes. The slowing down of technical innovation is holding back gaming. The hardware outstrips the software by so much nowadays. I would love to see a top end PC pushed to the limit by a game.
Best looking game 2007 – Crysis
Best looking game 2010 – Crysis.
WTF?
13/10/2010 at 23:37 stahlwerk says:
Best Looking Game 2010: Minecraft
:-P
14/10/2010 at 00:41 Starky says:
I’m GLAD that graphics in games as halted advancement.
Graphics are good enough, maybe if game developers over the coming decade put a fraction the effort that has been dedicated to shinier graphics for the past decade (and more) into other aspects of game design we’ll have a diamond age of gaming.
13/10/2010 at 23:36 Dave says:
So no Episode 3? *sad face*
13/10/2010 at 23:41 lafinass says:
Wut?
Their plan to compete with the other games in the genre is to do absolutely nothing original?
That makes sense. Going to be sticking with LoL.
13/10/2010 at 23:44 fairy says:
Erm, mind I remind everybody that IceFrog did *NOT* do DotA Allstars. That was Guinsoo (and just before anyone shouts more, he only made Allstars, not DotA) who’s actually employed by Riot Games, who happen to be making Legue of Legends.
IceFrog has been maintaining it for a while yeah. But I think that Guinsoo (and so Riot) has a bit more right to that trademark than Valve or IceFrog can ever have.
13/10/2010 at 23:45 Grey says:
I find that blog post (The Truth About IceFrog: Behind the Bullshit) a lot more intriguing than the DotA 2 announcement.
14/10/2010 at 00:51 Starky says:
Personally that behind the bullshit blog smells like bullshit to me – I don’t give one frack if icefrog is a massive ball-end or not, but vague anonymous blog posts waving vague accusations and insults just strike me as having all the credibility of a beauty product customer survey.
Which in case you are wondering is very credible indeed*
*63% of 78 random tramps agree.
14/10/2010 at 00:11 Sir Digby says:
Unless they follow the same system as LoL (free to play but with easier unlockable champions and champion skins for those that want to pay) I’m certainly not paying for a new clone.
14/10/2010 at 00:14 Spliter says:
I didn’t get into Dota and I doubt I’ll get into now even though I’ve been a complete valve fanboy with their every game so far except CS.
Still it’s good to know Valve is continuing their policy on threading new grounds by helping out and hiring people from out of the gaming mainstream.
14/10/2010 at 00:27 Rick says:
This is the first ever Valve game I simply feel nothing for. I mean, I didn’t like the idea of L4D2 as I felt it was too soon, but its still a good game that holds my interest. This… just doesn’t. No sale here Valve, sorry.
14/10/2010 at 00:55 Scott says:
You probably already know this, but the genre is called AoS, after the original SC1 map Aeon of Strife.
I say this because there are about a bajillion maps in WC3 of that genre already and it would be kind of rude to label them dota-clones when really, DotA is a clone of them. Also, Dota-clone implies that Dota was the definer of the genre, and it was most definitely not.
Plus Ay-oh-ess just rolls better off the tongue than dotaesque or dotaclone.
14/10/2010 at 00:57 Scott says:
Oops, meant this as a reply to another post. Curse my failure!
14/10/2010 at 07:37 mrmud says:
This is true, but its the same with how FPS games were called DOOM clones in the 90s even though DOOM was clearly preceeded by Wolf3D
14/10/2010 at 01:06 Pijama says:
A couple of things:
1 – All of that for a BLOODY SEQUEL? Ok, it’s Valve, it will probably be polished as Rockefeller’s coffin, but I will hold my enthusiasm. It would have been much easier to just do DotA: Source.
That been said, I really liked the map in Warcraft. Though not expectant I was before, I am still curious.
2 – We should start organizing a RPS clan/team/horde/warband/whatever immediately, just to be safe. :)
14/10/2010 at 01:32 badvibration says:
I’m going to start building a time machine now… see you in 2011
14/10/2010 at 02:19 Deltus says:
BANTER?
http://icefrogtruth.blogspot.com/
14/10/2010 at 02:24 John Peat says:
This is gonna run and run and run isn’t it?
*grabs popcorn*
14/10/2010 at 02:24 Ted says:
What a complete waste of time. Has Valve abandoned Half Life at this point?
14/10/2010 at 02:29 Jackanator87 says:
Fucking noobs. Learn to play or stfu. I’ll first blood all of you.
14/10/2010 at 04:18 Impossible says:
The problem is no one wants to spend the $100 million it would take to develop the tech and assets that can actually push high end hardware that few people own. Actually this is one of the reasons why developers, publishers and hardware manufacturers don’t want a new console generation any time soon. Most games don’t make enough money to justify the high budgets required to push modern hardware, at least in a graphical sense.
As a gamer and a game programmer I’d love to see someone make an insane game that pushes a top of line PC, but unless its somehow subsidized I don’t see it happening because I don’t think its practical from a business standpoint. For now and the foreseeable future we’ll have to settle for Crysis.
That said if you are purely a graphics whore the demo scene is doing a lot of cool things that push modern GPUs. You can always watch the videos on youtube if you don’t have a machine that can run the actually the demo and basically get the same experience :).
14/10/2010 at 04:29 panther says:
I wanted a TF2 version of dota. I’m sure the ‘hardcore’ fans wouldn’t agree, but I have tried dota and hon and disliked them.
Could have been something so much better :(
14/10/2010 at 07:03 Thants says:
Have you tried League of Legends? Because it’s a much more accessible DOTA type game.
14/10/2010 at 11:14 Wang Tang says:
I only tried LoL, but if that’s accessible, I really don’t wanna try HoN :S
14/10/2010 at 17:55 Julian says:
Speaking of TF2 + DotA, if you have an XBOX and are willing to pay Microsoft for basic functionality like playing online you should check out Monday Night Combat. It’s basically a TF2-inspired shooter whose core game mode is structured like an AoS. Pick a class, spend money to power up abilities (on cooldown timers), push creep waves to take out turrets and their base. It’s pretty slick I’m just pissed it’s not on PC (yet?).
14/10/2010 at 04:38 panther says:
“Valve’s approach to Dota 2 is unusual in that the gameplay itself is remaining almost entirely untouched.”
yeap do not want to play
14/10/2010 at 06:14 Davie says:
I fully support Valve’s practice of making sequels to mods, but I wish they could’ve changed this one up a bit like they did with Team Fortress 2. It’ll look pretty, for sure, but it seems a waste to put so much effort into what is ultimately the same game with better graphics and a slightly easier skill curve.
Also I hope it’s not top-down. Proper third person would be more enjoyable.
14/10/2010 at 06:23 Davie says:
Also, still just the one map? Seriously? Alien Swarm was more expansive.
14/10/2010 at 07:25 SegwayRulz says:
WHY MUST VALVE WASTE THEIR CREATIVE GLORY ON THIS!
14/10/2010 at 08:02 MultiVaC says:
Kind of disappointing, I was hoping this would be to DOTA what TF2 was to TFC. But it seems to just be DOTA with better graphics.
14/10/2010 at 08:43 Komus says:
This is the beauty of DotA(-likes)! They do take time, they do take practice. You can’t even begin to view the metagame objectively until you have learned every hero and every item. The synergy between a team’s heroes, time management, coordination…
These games are deep in a way that a “console gamer” will never understand. Deep like Dwarf Fortress. I suspect it takes a certain sort of masochist (in addition to several masochistic friends) to want to put in a little effort and learn the system… But once you catch a glimpse of the master plan, its a beautiful thing.
Minecraft
14/10/2010 at 08:46 Komus says:
1. That was meant to be a reply
2. “Fucking noobs. Learn to play or stfu. I’ll first blood all of you.” – This.
3. “Also I hope it’s not top-down. Proper third person would be more enjoyable.” Not this. Really, really, not this.
14/10/2010 at 08:51 mbp says:
What does all this mean for League of Legends? By all accounts LoL is both a very good and very successful take off of DoTA albeit with the same community issues that seem to plague this type of game. Will the juggernaut that is Valve squash them?
14/10/2010 at 09:01 Zogtee says:
It sure gets really 4chan in here at times, when the masks slip off.
14/10/2010 at 09:27 Redford says:
I know that all of the leet DOTA players are going to scream at me for this, but remove denying. It is on the same tier as bunnyhopping.
14/10/2010 at 11:13 Sir Digby says:
Having experienced DOTA, HoN and LoL and still playing LoL I can say the latter is the easier to get into and the one with the most “forgiving” crowd, specially on the EU servers; that said, of course you get lots of flak but I rarely see any trolling when you get to higher level unless you are truly atrocious and let’s be honest about it: it’s a highly competitive game, it’s designed to be that way and games like that attract a “certain” crowd, it’s a either “love it or hate it” deal.
14/10/2010 at 11:15 RogB says:
that top pics reminds me of Mononoke:
http://animeonly.org/albums/VISINAUJI/EGIO/fourth/Princesse-Mononoke/princess_mononoke_035.jpg
anyway, I’ve tried to work out what this game actually is but an none the wiser. It sounds utterly impenetrable unless you’ve been playing for years. Alas, competetive multiplayer isnt for me….
oh valve, why cant you make some single player games for a change.
14/10/2010 at 12:41 teo says:
For people will skill hard games are more fun. TF2 is a pubbie game
14/10/2010 at 12:57 pipman3000 says:
you tell ‘em, champ.
14/10/2010 at 16:39 HeavyStorm says:
Blizz _should_ be eating themselves after realizing that they had a big opportunity by hiring either IceFrog or “the other guy” and turning DotA into a commercial, profitable product. Valve’s approach is incredible. It’s what, the third time they do this?
14/10/2010 at 21:24 Tei says:
I think Old Blizzard response is making the editors better. To have the next DOTA,.. whatever new thing spawn from his mod community.
New blizzard has this “activic”-ill that is mortal, and has not cure. So even if the idea of making the editor better was the right one, all the scary and anoying “I own everything, and I like to push bullshit on everybody lifes” of activision may ruin that idea anyway.
14/10/2010 at 17:05 Dota 2 Review says:
Man, I’m so pumped up for this!!
14/10/2010 at 18:27 lucktacular says:
I hope they fix late-game Int heroes in this version.
14/10/2010 at 22:19 Anon says:
Expand please? Int carries (such as Stormspirit and QoP) are pretty much perfectly balanced, fun to play and if anything there needs to be more of them, it’s an intriguing class type that offers a lot of depth to the player’s decision making.
15/10/2010 at 04:16 A person says:
God
back when I use to be a regular around WC3…. DOTA was the worst thing to become popular there..
and similar to what some had said before me.. it was apain if you were a newcomer into those games..even more of a pain when all the games hosted ended up being “NO DL/PROS ONLY” crap
15/10/2010 at 13:10 beta key says:
I was hoping IceFrog would do something innovative and new with the franchise rather than just a rehash…
16/10/2010 at 04:03 antc says:
the game will be a bit “noob friendly” (REALLY??, i don’t think so), and will take a bit less time to get into, cause it will sport AI, meaning u start a game, put yourself on a team of u + 4 bots vs other 5bots, and you learn that way, playing, just like CS, whatever. in HoN, basically you have to be trolled for 3/4/5 months to get “decent”, because there isnt any AI and offline gameplay..
After buying HoN, and getting used to it, i don’t think i’ll buy this.
16/10/2010 at 15:31 a person says:
clearly, a lot of people just don’t see this as THE SAME FRIKKIN GAME, except modified so that it isn’t limited by Warcraft III’s engine anymore. HoN and LoL are, for sure, GOOD and LEGAL clones of the mod, but I say to you now, can’t you just wait and see? PLEASE? SO MUCH HATE. i mean, even IceFrog, one of the best coders of DotA: Allstars is working on it. GIVE THEM SOME SLACK. THE GAME’S NOT EVEN FINISHED YET.
31/10/2010 at 07:48 The man says:
I think, dota 2 will be f2p game.
31/10/2010 at 08:57 Distrx says:
“The idea is to have everything a player does in or out of game tie back into their online identity.”
- Sounds pretty cool, I think this will go a long way into nurturing a helpful and pleasant community in DOTA 2!