By Jim Rossignol on March 22nd, 2011 at 8:25 am.
The exciting North American variant of Official Xbox Magazine has revealed that Duke’s multiplayer will feature a “Capture The Babe” multiplayer mode, in which teams battle over women who are being carted off to be impregnated by the alien invaders. Ah, that sounds hi-liarious, doesn’t it, readers? But there’s to be controversy, thanks to the unbelievable admission that the babe might “freak out”, requiring you to “gently give her a reassuring slap.” OXM insist that this slap on the arse is “more goofy than offensive”.
So… yeah.
I’m sure thats what everyone aspires to be; “more goofy than offensive”.
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And most of us manage it about as well as Gearbox have :(
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I knew people would be offended by it! Hahaha.
Games are not moral compasses… There are many many games, including this one, where you kick people in the nuts, blow their heads off with guns, or even torture them, which is much more morally reprehensive than slapping someone’s ass…
I’m gonna get this game now, because it has this feature, because it sticks two fingers up at all the hypocrite pontificators out there who don’t know their head from their ass when it comes to morality.
Ya’ll getting trolled by this game, and you deserve it. Keep frothing at the mouth like the herp derpers you are and rage on.
It’s Duke Nukem, what did you expect?!
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If anyone is frothing over here, Gorgol, it’s you.
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Well, if this had been PCGamer, my comment probably would have been deleted. +Rep to RPS for not doing that, rare to find a place where you can express your opinion.
P.S. Touché.
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Gorgol may be frothing but he is right in what he says.
Are you really that shocked? Is it really such an ‘unbelievable admission’? Or do you just feel you have to write that because while this would be fine in any other medium (books, tv, movies) it’s somehow not OK in games, because despite how much you lot and others write to the contrary, you still can’t help but believe that games are still really for kids (and maybe we are all just being big kids when we play them).
And yes, a slap to the arse is fine in movies, books and tv – there are plenty of examples from John Wayne spanking Elizabeth Allen in Mclintock, to more recent examples in Weeds or Big Brother. It isn’t violence, it doesn’t have to be sexist (in the right context, which as Duke is a basically a parody, this surely is) and plenty of ladies actually like it when it’s done right.
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I find it it unbelievable that a slap on the arse is “reassuring”, yes.
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>And yes, a slap to the arse is fine in movies, books and tv – there are plenty of examples from John Wayne spanking Elizabeth Allen in Mclintock,
Oh, a film from 1963? Spanking of the type we is talking about here (non-consensual) is about deep humiliation and showing to someone you consider them not worthy to be treated as an adult but as a willful child (not that children should be spanked either…).
Denying people their agency, establishing power over them as if they are your slave and you are their master… this stuff is funny to you?
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@Donkeyfumbler
Think about what you just wrote and apply it to real life. Spank a random woman, who let’s say dropped her purse on the ground, on the ass and see if she’s reassured.
Or better yet! Try it on a couple of women! See how they react and come tell us if they looked reassured or if they returned the favour to your face!
(Actually, don’t do that. It’s not nice!)
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Pfft. Old movies. This is better.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0274812/
Maggie Gyllenhaal, so it’s arty.
@Hanban – try it on ENOUGH women and you’re going to get laid, guaranteed.
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Err, woah, hold your horses there. It can actually be re-assuring, and its not about power. Sometimes when I’m in the kitchen my girlfriend slaps me on the ass as a joke. It startles me a little but then I see the funny side. As does she if I reciprocate the joke. Do you guys getting offended by this actually have or have ever had girlfriends? Or are you the stereotypical pc gamers?… O.o :S
But anyway there are much worse things that are distrubingly common in games like for example torture and murder. So getting upset about this makes no sense whatsoever.
And thirdly, this is a satire on machismo, and as such is actually against it.
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“@Hanban – try it on ENOUGH women and you’re going to get laid, guaranteed.”
Or arrested, whatever.
Jesus.
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Well, Lars that is some selective quoting since he said from Mclitock to Weeds & Big Brother, which are both contempory.
I personally don’t like the arse slapping mechanic on paper, I think it is sexist and demeaning and there is something a little disturbing about it. Although I will agree that that playing up sexism is part of Duke Nukem and to cry outrage at this, in this specific context is a little OTT to my mind. At worst it’s like a poor taste joke.
I don’t think that Duke Nukem is really the hight of sexism in Games if I am honest. The entire thing is neon signposted as tongue in cheek. Meanwhile there are plenty of other games out there with seriously messed up depictions of women who seem to be taking themselves all too seriously indeed.
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Lars – I can find you plenty of examples from more recent films if you really want me to – that was just the first that came to mind. Weeds is a recent TV series.
Who has said here that this is non-consensual? You have assumed this, but has anyone asked the girl involved? Why should we assume it’s one way and not the other? Saying that a single light slap on the arse is all about deep humiliation and in any way similar to putting a child over your knee and spanking them is simply risible.
Jim – depends on the person and the situation, but yes a slap on the arse can be reassuring. Certainly doesn’t apply to everyone, and it may be out of your experience, but it is true.
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@SanguineAngel
You’re totally right about this hardly being isolated in terms of offensive sexism in a game.
Maybe it’s because it takes what was a strong tone of sexism and actively asks the player to excercise agency in enacting that sexism that tips it over the line.
By and large though I just would love to see the medium progress beyond this sort of puerile bollocks. If it /was/ just the exception then i’d be much more OK with it.
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My ex used to give me a quick slap on the butt when she walked into the kitchen while I was cooking, is this also gross sexism? Should I have her reported for for abuse?
Of course not, its all about CONTEXT (and i liked it but thats not for open discussion)
This is a game about a completely unpolitically correct person who is saving girls from being inseminnated by pig aliens.Also all the info we have is about a re-assuring slap, do we know what she is freaking out about yet? Is it about he being carried off by a big block or because she was about to be made pregent by a pig and shes a bit worried!
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Can people really not see the difference between two people being playful in an intimate, trusting relationship by patting each other on the ass and an armed man slapping a powerless female stranger.
Seriously, the lengths you are having to go to try and justify this surely indicates something?
The point is surely that asking a player, whose character is placed by the game in the circumstances described, to conduct this act crosses a line.
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@TheApologist:
CoD = torture + killing
Bulletstorm = killing + torture + kicking in the nuts
WoW = systematic genocide + torture + killing
/thread
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Did I miss something. I don’t recall Jim getting all up in arms in the article, he’s reported the story, nothing more. It’s Duke Nukem so it’s not a surprise and in context of the IP’s history and information released to date, probably quite low on the scale of what is likely offensive in the game.
Now trying to argue that in real life such as action could be seen as anything other than offensive and inappropriate, except with someone you have an established relationship with such that it’s meaning is understood, is itself offensive.
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@gorgol
one bad thing + second bad thing does not equal both things being ok. That is the existence of CoD doesn’t make Duke Nukem ok.
If you want to take issue with a differential being made where sexist violence is said to be worse than other forms of violence, fair enough. But let’s not pretend that this stance provides you with a logic for the toleration of sexist violence. It surely simply makes all forms of violence less tolerable.
However, I would personally disagree with you about failing to make a distinction between sexist violence (and for that matter racist or homophobic violence) and other depictions of violence, for the reasons stated several times by others further down the thread – i.e. that games often posit you in contexts where violent acts have some form of justification such as self-defence from a powerful aggressor or liberation from a powerful aggressive force. This posits you as powerful and conducting an oppressive act towards a vulnerable woman.
In games, and in the wider media, heroic characters are rarely oppressors. If you want to make that move as a writer, you have to handle it very carefully if it is to be interesting and challenging, and not simply offensive. Based on prior games and descriptions of the game, I am skeptical this will be interesting or challenging.
PS Some may well say, yeah but you play CoD and surely they depict violent acts towards racist representations of, for example, people from the middle east. Well, I do not tend to play modern military shooters because when I have played them in the past, I felt them to be racist.
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@TheApologist
Do you know something about the slap that we don’t as currently we have two pieces of information, at some point when carrying the girl you give her a slap, and the slap is on the bum (and its insinuated to be playful)?
As i said before we don’t know “why” she is freaking out at the moment, but you know you in the context of the fight you are saving them from pig men. If you were trying to save someone who was freaking out you woudl try to calm them down somehow? In this case the way its done is a slap on the bum (and i suspect the “freak out” is a way to stop people camping with flags in corners as theres noise made to alert people to where they are in terms of game mechanics)
Hell most of us as kids were slapped on the bum, but cause we were naughty.
Amazed how a very limited bit of information about this has turned a load of gaming comments sections into the daily mail comment section for gods sake.
I also like how vibrators and getting pleasured by 2 girls while playing a video game (and a gloryhole) is fine, but a slap on teh butt is crossing a line.
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What @trollgol fails to appreciate is that the violence in games not only has the exact same analogue in other media as his beloved sexual degradation does, but also serves the plot of the game in a meaningful way. It isn’t offensive to shoot nazis in the head in WW2 games, because if you don’t do it, you aren’t going to capture pointe du hoc, and that’s a straight reasoning. The game’s about winning battles and you do that by killing, so it’s entirely necessary and appropriate. There is *no* reason to make slapping a hostage on the arse a game mechanic other than to be perverse, which is offensive, or deliberately controversial, which is patronising and tedious. You can reason with a woman you’re trying to help but you can’t reason with a nazi behind the barrel of a gun, simply put, and suggestions to the contrary are sexist.
And that, as they say, is that.
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@Milky1985
We are told in the story that the women are kidnap victims, and that if they ‘freak out’ we are to restore their emotional equilibrium by slapping them on the ass. That is the depiction of events I am working off, with some knowledge of the character from prior games for context.
You make a fair point that information is limited, but would point out that I did not say I knew anything, and made it clear the bases I was working from.
Also, I think it is fair to say that I never made the claim that I approved of or was aware of prior revelations of potentially sexist content in the game. I also never made the claim that I was prudish about depictions of sex, sex toys or whatever in this game or in games in general. I’m not. So, you might feel me to be reactionary, fair enough, but I would object to being called reactionary in the terms of the Daily Mail.
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http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/02/09/will-bulletstorm-murder-your-children-no/
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@gorgol
Not sure what you mean by providing the link.
Is it intended to make an equivalence between the claim that Bulletstorm causes real world violent acts by its players and the claim that encouraging a player to commit an act of sexist violence in a game is something to be disapproved of?
If so, I am confused as to how you could reach the conclusion that they are equivalent.
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I’m surprised anyone is surprised at this. Is it sexist? Absolutely. Should you have expected this? Absolutely. It’s Duke Nukem! Since the 3D game, it’s been running off pride of being the most chauvinistic, meatheaded, big dumb shooty game around. Bulletstorm was smart dumb, Duke Nukem is dumb dumb.
So really, both sides are right. It’s appalling… and you get EXACTLY what you paid for.
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I’m not sure anyone has stated that they’re “surprised” by this. I wasn’t surprised when I got my last water bill, but I still raged about it.
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@Bilbo. Game mechanics are game mechanics, whether it is COD or Duke Nukem – the developer decides how he wants his game to play out. There is no reason why there couldn’t be some mechanic where you try to negotiate with your nazi foe, or decide to try and shoot him somewhere non-fatal. In fact plenty of games have gone down that route, so to say that to depict killing someone in the game you are designing is fine because there is no alternative to killing is just wrong – you have just made the choice to design the game that way because it’s more fun.
This then is no different than the design here. Sure they could have chosen some other game mechanic to diffuse the situation, but it wouldn’t have been as fun or fitted the context of the rest of the game as well.
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I categorically, 100% do not agree. You get in doc brown’s time machine, go to normandy circa 1944 and chat to the nazis – who, by the way, mostly don’t speak english – while they’re trying to fight you off and let me know how far you get. Ridiculous. Also, how is triggering a slap animation “fun”?
At no point did I say game designers don’t have the right to design their game – that’d be stupid – but if we want to talk about why this particular game design choice leaves a bad taste in so many mouths, the most logical and least reactionary answer I can find is the one I outlined, and by and large I’m sticking to it.
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OK bit more info (from a JoyStiq comment post from someone who has played it at PAX i believe, not sure if its 100% true but possible http://www.joystiq.com/2011/03/21/duke-nukem-forevers-capture-the-babe-mode-is-a-slap-in-the-fa/2#comments )
“When playing carry the babe, you have to smack her ass. You carry her on your shoulder and she reacts to explosions and gun fire by kicking and screaming which slows you down and blocks your view. Do anyone think the ESRB would have allowed an actual face slap or any other type of serious violence against women in this game (or any other)? ”
So there we go, actual (possibly anyway) info on whats going on, shes not reacting to you, shes reacting to the fact that a MASSIVE explosion just happened.
How often in films does someone get hystrical and then get slapped, BOTH MAN AND WOMEN! (and why is it fine for a man to get slapped in the face in films and games?)
Secondly how many people in here complaining about this are female? Has anyone actually asked any girls what they think of this and the game as a whole? Might be an important question and group of people to ask!
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Wow, people are jumping through amazing hoops to defend this game.
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@Bilbo: you’re a moron and a troll. Stop jumping to an easy godwin and commenting on RL history you clearly have no clue about. You’ll do everyone a favor.
Now back to the topic. Seriously, are the players so touchy nowadays that you can’t see this kind of stuff in a DN game ? Blimey, I could see the point if we were in a perfect world, but if you need to get on a feminist crusade I suggest you start with the mass medias, advertisement, reality shows who all depicts women (and human beings as a whole, ftm) as disposable objects under one form or another.
Which btw goes much further than a slap on the buttcheeks in a clearly stereotypic, ironical video game.
Another thing, in regards to man/woman equity. Seriously, who here would see a problem with the reverse situation where a female character would be saving men from being impregnated by space pigs, and prompting them to calm down by slapping them on the butt ? I know I don’t.
Why should everything become an excuse for ideological revendication these days is beyond me. Looks like the dickwolves affair all over again. It’s like the players and the net community as a whole just aren’t gifted with the capacity to tell what part of fiction is just imaginary matter and what part could be relevant to RL.
Let’s hope these people don’t start digging into the various mythologies taught in our universities, it’s seriously sick.
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Reply to Milky1985
How about you ask how a woman feels about condescending slaps on the ass?
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@TGW Are you kidding me? What the hell was that? I was being entirely rational in presenting a good reason from a game design perspective why people are offended by this, and then defending my idea, and that’s all. I wasn’t trolling anybody. A period of history I obviously know nothing about? My understanding of the history – informed by an A grade in A level History – has nothing whatsoever to do with the point I was making, which was simply that shooting dudes in games makes sense and is pertinent and valid within the game’s story and context, while sexually degrading female captives isn’t. Okay it’s typical of the game but it’s still unneccessary and that’s why some commenters are less than impressed. Hopefully you understand this and we can move on. It certainly wasn’t moronic or trolling. It wasn’t off-topic either, so “Now back to the topic” can go straight back in the wheelie bin. On the other hand, just labelling me a moron and troll certainly was, so no cookie points for you, I’m afraid. “Jumping to an easy Godwin”? Try conjuring an apt metaphor for my opinion and presenting it clearly. I’m sorry if that seems so “easy”, I was just born this way.
*EDIT* Just googled the concept of a Godwin, and that’s not even what I was doing. “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1″. I wasn’t saying “if you like sexual degradation of women in games, you’re a bit like the Nazis”, I was using the Nazis as a video game bad guy cliche because that’s a decent example. If it upsets you so much just substitute “1944″ and “Nazis” for “1971″ and “Communists”. There, I fixed it for you.
You’re incredibly rude, by the way, what’s your problem? Do you get slapped around a lot, too?
Man, I thought this was a nice place. I’m gonna go cool off with some gin and juice, TGW just really wound me up a treat with that one
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@Bilbo.
A bit harsh there from the Great Wayne – I certainly woudn’t accuse you of trolling.
My Nazi analogy was just an example. There are lots of other games that involve killing people who aren’t Nazi’s where you simply don’t have a choice in the game but would have done if the situation occurred in real life. Also, not all of those who joined the German Army were out and out evil with no humanity to them (and some would have been able to speak English besides, just like I can speak a little German).
As for triggering a slap being fun, well one man’s meat is another man’s poison and all that. I think it’s fun (and so does the wife, if you’re asking :).
In the end it boils down to choice. The designers probably chose to include it because A. It was fun B. It fit with the tone of the game and C. It gets them publicity. No-one has to buy it if they don’t want to, and those that do are not going to go around slapping unwilling women on the arse (unless, possibly, they are rescuing them from violent space-pigs) or view them purely as sex objects any more than they possibly already do, just as women who play it won’t think all men are muscled, sexist, cigar-chomping nymphomaniacs.
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Well yeah, I can agree with you on all of those points pretty much. I get that it’s maybe implicit when someone’s voicing a negative opinion of a design choice in this age of boycotts and scandals that said person is also advocating class action against the game, or laying accusations of corruption at the feet of the developers, but I’m really not trying to do any of that – just trying to break through what I perceive to be a bit of a misunderstanding about the negative reaction this feature is getting from some commenters.
I don’t want to get into great detail about the whole “nazi analogy thing”, just point out that I did qualify “mostly don’t speak english”, and that of course I do acknowledge that not all members of the german army were inherently evil, etc, etc. I did sort of make it sound like I was accusing all 1940s era german soldiers of being unrelenting killers, but that wasn’t my intention. My central point was just that in the context of a WW2 battle the individual soldier doesn’t generally get a chance to negotiate, whereas in a fantasy sci-fi setting there’s no explicit reason on show for why these female captives can’t simply be reasoned with or reassured verbally. In other contexts, as you rightly point out, there’s definitely a lot of room for alternative courses of action to violence to be presented as gameplay features, and I’d point to Swat 3 and its ilk as examples of good ways to handle this, and I’d even concede that on the whole the lack of alternatives to violence in so many games does aggravate me in the same manner as this does. I fully appreciate that the crass off-colour humour is part of the game’s appeal and I really don’t hold the decision against the developers – I just sympathise with all those who find the idea distasteful, for the reason I suggested, and can see a delineation between the role of violence in a video game and the role of sexual degradation in a video game, thus finding the argument that “if you aren’t offended by normal violence in games why are you offended by sexual violence in video games” not immediately valid.
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It’s quite amusing that Gorgol believed the ass slapping to be some kind of punk rock affront to the holy video gaming establishment. Huuuuuuuuge lol’s. Forgive him Lord, he knows not what he is talking about.
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Smash the System!
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@Bilbo.
Fully agree with you (isn’t this lovely?). I too can see how some people might find this distasteful, and also be the same people who happily run people over in GTA at the same time. I’m fairly vehemently anti-censorship of any kind, except when there really is no choice or it is obviously black and white (child porn, rape etc.), which is where I’m coming from on this. The whole Daily Mail style ‘Ban this filth’ thing just really gets on my tits (not saying that Jim or RPS were saying that of course though).
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Yeah, I remember Mark Kermode saying something about how younger people needed to be careful about giving voice to moral qualms, and that if they were old enough to remember the “video nasties” thing they would be more tolerant. There’s definitely some truth in that, I think.
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I’m not sure the arguments here are comparing Apples with Apples. Most people (apart from one or two) here seem to agree that slapping a complete stranger (whether male or female) on the arse is offensive, and generally more offensive if a man does it to a woman because of historical oppression perpetrated by man against woman.
What I don’t agree with, is that a game shouldn’t ever portray such an act. The duke is a clichéd sexist, rude and bigoted character. The duke is also a caricature of poor taste, and questionably satire too, so everything is exaggerated. Not having him act in a sexist, rude and bigoted way is tantamount to a film containing a bully who isn’t ever shown bullying anyone because that’s a mean thing to do.
Maybe one thing that’s objected to, is that as the player, you’re required to initiate the action. It makes you feel seedy. But that makes me wonder what the hell people are thinking when they’re shooting people in the face in other games.
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@Bhazor
“How about you ask how a woman feels about condescending slaps on the ass?”
I am sure a condescending slap on the ass will annoy them and I agree if i ask excatly like that I will get an answer of yes. It is a rather loaded question however :P
The one we are talking bout I don’t think is condesending. I’m sure if someone actually sees it … (wait for it)…. in context with everything else in the game the answer will be different. Context is king!!
If someone slap someone else in the face in one case it could be assult, in the other case trying to get someone hysterical to calm down, it all depends on the context of it.
Now run along now ! [gives everyone a basketball player style buttslap, and by everyone i mean everyone!]
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@peanut, there’s a difference between scripting a one-off Duke-being-Duke slap and designing a game mechanic in which women need to be slapped to calm down. And it is NOT that the player feels “seedier” in the latter. It’s that the script makes a statement about Duke, while the mechanic makes a statement about the way a world works. A script says Duke slaps women, a mechanic says women need to be slapped.
Also note that you call Duke sexist and bigoted, but I suspect that if you tried to make a big budget game just as racist as this game is sexist that the industry wouldn’t let you get away with that. Imagine a strategy game where people of a different race were lazy and you had to push the yell button to make them start working again.
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Slap on the ass, vs Murder, Torture, or Genocide. It’s quite disturbing how many think the first is a more offensive thing to depict than the other three. Sure the first can be offensive depending on context, but the other three much more so, in any context, and I don’t see “ban this filth” Daily Mail style pontificating from PC gamers everytime a CoD sequel or WoW expansion comes out. I shake my head at you all. Also try to remember its just a game, made of pixels on a screen…
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Okay – and how often is it on the ass?
When someone is flipping out, slapping them in the face may or may not be appropriate – but slapping them in the ass never is.
The thing is, it just doesn’t make any sense! If you’re a woman who’s been captured by pig aliens, then re-captured by some burly guy, and are now flipping out because everything around you is exploding – would getting slapped on the ass be more likely to calm you down, or to make you flip out even more?
The real answer is, you probably wouldn’t even feel it! The only carrying position I can think of where ass-slapping would be feasible is the classical “hero carrying a damsel” pose, with the victim’s torso thrown over one of the rescuer’s shoulders; the thing is, that fucking hurts because your stomach is pressing in to their shoulder and it’s just really painful all around. There’s a reason why soldiers in real life use a fireman’s carry when they need to move someone around! A little slap on the ass isn’t going to feel like anything when you’re nearly barfing from the pain of having your stomach driven into some douchebag’s shoulder while he “rescues” you.
So: not only is this mechanism in bad taste, it makes no fucking sense. The end.
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@Tacroy: please, re-read what you’ve written and *facepalm*. Seriously.
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It would be much more interesting if the women were the combatants and Duke was the one captured and slapped.
Call the mode “Sadie Hawkins.”
Done.
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I think most people would agree that replacing the distressed woman with a black man in chains, and bringing him under control with a whip to the back would be pretty offensive. At least in the US. I doubt any publisher would even try to ship such a feature.
Alternatively, most people would probably agree Duke getting captured and spanked by female combatants wouldn’t be offensive.
So where does the feature as-is stand? Without playing it, to me, its more of the first than the second, since women have historically been treated misogynistically and stereotyped as weak and defenceless, and this continues that particular viewpoint. If it is successfully potrayed as a parody or satire, either by going so over the top with the misogyny to lampoon how video games still portray women ridiculously, or by showing Duke as completely out of touch with reality, then kudos to the dev team.
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What really disappoints me is what a betrayal this is to the Duke Nukem franchise’s history of progressive feminism.
Even back in Duke Nukem 3D, you had strong female characters who were so confident in their social equality that they had the power to extort resources from Duke and then humiliate him by casting off their clothing in his presence.
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@Shih Tsu: Yes, and it was discussed back when DN3D was released, too.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZf64NfQATM
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A view from an actual lady: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHip-xZ61bY&feature=related
So: blow it out your ass.
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@Consumatopia
Shooting people is a game mechanic, does that mean people need to be shot in the face? The difference? Shooting people is a far worse crime. I mean sure, a game mechanic is a type of rule, but imagination is supposed to help the player to believe those rules aren’t universal. Just because I can’t open those doors that don’t have a protruding door handle in half life 2, doesn’t mean I can’t imagine rooms behind them. The same way I can imagine female characters elsewhere in the dukeverse that don’t have to be spanked at that very brief moment in time.
Shooting people in most other games is also not satirical – DNF is clearly satirical. It’s based on those Seagal/Van Damme type action films with extremely backward views of gender roles. It’s clearly trying to be humorous, though is often tasteless, and questionably funny. COD etc on the other hand are continuations of those old backward action movie themes, though mostly they don’t even contain female roles. So probably worse. Lazy, in fact. Don’t even get me started on the fact that they’re basically just whack-a-mole with a range of different hype-charged mallets.
When I labelled the ‘duke’ as sexist I was referring to the character, not the game. I obviously wouldn’t like to see a racist game. A game featuring a racist character however, would be fine. Although it was about aliens, Mass Effect braced a few racism issues in a reasonable fashion. The game isn’t racist though.
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@peanut, you’re missing the point. A mechanic is not just the capacity to perform an action like spanking or shooting. It’s also the way game responds to that action.
In the game, when you shoot people, they die. Everyone agrees that this is likely to happen in the real world.
In the game, when you spank panicked women, they stop panicking. This is not how the real world typically works. See @Tacroy.
(As an aside, even if this WERE just a matter of which action capacities you offer, you still wouldn’t be in the clear. For example, a non-ironic game where every time you press a button your character yells something racist. Even though murder is worse than racism, a racist action capability would be more suspect than a murderous action capability.)
I get that Duke Nukem bears similarities to some action movies from the last century. However, I think that similarity is more a matter of inspiration rather than parody. Duke Nukem laughs with sexism, not at sexism.
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Yeah, ‘cos this scene is sexist… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0GW0Vnr9Yc . Give it a rest will ya? You’re just making yourself look silly. None of you have a leg to stand on to support your pontificating and you know it. Ahhh, you’re all trolling. Wow. Well done. I won’t feed the trolls anymore then.
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That Airplane scene actually demonstrates what I’m talking about with mechanics. The woman never calms down. Slapping women to calm them down didn’t work. And the motivation of slappers was clearly shown to be sadistic. That is how satire is supposed to work.
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To be completely honest I find the sheer stupidity of the gamemode’s premise more offensive than some buttock slapping. Although I am curious, will there be but smackage every time duke saves one of these helpless ladies? If so, one could make the argument that the people will be influenced by the repetitive exposure to this imagery. Then again I’ve been shooting people in the face for years and I’m totally fine *twitch*
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Well, this is sure to end well.
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…wait, what?
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It should be noted that the slap feature is apparently on the lady’s hindquarters.
http://uk.kotaku.com/5784253/duke-nukem-forevers-capture-the-babe-mode-has-a-spank-button
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“The rest of DNF’s multiplayer, supporting up to 8 players at once, ”
Thats the most shocking line from that article. Jeeze.
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I’m waiting for the Fox News version before I make my mind up about this.
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:D
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See, now I’ve thought practically all the big video game controversies were overblown gibberish on the part of the media. Being the terrorists in COD, having sex in GTA, spectacular violence in Christ-knows-how-many things… but this is offensive.
The thing is, I think they know it is. It’s a cry for attention. We have been cheapened.
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Desperate.
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I love how Xbox Magazine tries to justify this. You “Gently” give her “Reassuring” slaps. It’d be nice if magazines could make at least small criticisms of games they’re previewing. Even tiny ones like, y’know, suggesting that portraying women as objects to be captured and slapped when they get out of line might cross the line slightly.
What’s the bet capturing the “Flag” makes the girl give some kind of striptease?
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Most men wouldn’t know where to find the flag anyway.
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Most men would run out of ammo before getting to the flag then fall asleep.
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Most men would get the flag once and spend the rest of the game bragging about it over voice chat.
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Off-Topic
Rose & Camellia
http://nigoro.jp/game/rosecamellia/rosecamellia.php
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That game is far too hard for me. I don’t do fast mouse movement stuff.
Also, it is definitely not off topic :P
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That’s an easy way to keep me from buying your game. Insult my intelligence and do it with sexism. Hell, make it so we play the whole mode in blackface. That’ll strike about the right balance.
Between this, and the marketing for Deadspace and Bulletstorm, I’m really tired of being treated like a particularly dumb 14-year-old. For me, it’s gotten to the point where I can’t ignore it any more. I’m not buying any game that thinks its target market is primarily interested in sniffing glue.
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This.
It is essentially devs saying “This shit is good enough for you. We don’t even have to try anymore, because you buy it anyway”.
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Agreed.
It’s too late to keep Gearbox from getting free publicity because of this, but I for one won’t be buying the game. Not because I’m offended or shocked, but just because it looks boring, patronizing, and (if you’ll pardon the turn of phrase) half-assed.
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Concurred.
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I think Pitchfork is trolling us in earnest, now.
The most bizarre thing about this is that the controversy that this will generate will create more retail sales, as people ‘have to see it for themselves just to believe it.’ I wouldn’t mind betting that MW2 likely doubled its boxed sales with that trick, too.
/colossal_facepalm
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One would like to believe that but considering Blops sold more than MW2 without having a sensationalist set piece, one has to conclude that it sold because people actually like it…
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Yeah, but I didn’t imply that it sold purely because of that, but rather that it helped to bolster sales by a magnitude that we can’t really know. I wouldn’t mind betting that it helped with a non-trivial per centage of sales though, because people do love sensationalism.
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“An open-handed slap is justified – if all other alternatives fail and there has been plenty of warning. If a woman is a bitch, or hysterical, or bloody-minded continually, then I’d do it. ” –Sean Connery
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Sean Connery has to be my favorite misogynist.
Though to be fair, we’re all a little bit sexist. If we weren’t, we’d either be equally shocked if Duke was a woman and she went around saving wimpy dudes and patting them on the ass, or not shocked at all as it is a completely normal thing.
But since no one goes around patting strangers on the rear (not without ending up in jail!), we can assume the first. And really, I’ll take moral outrage over either alternative.
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Deej, are you saying you wouldn’t be at all “offended” (I’m trying to use the term lightly, because people are confusing offense with RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION) by a game in which the males were subverted like this? The men had nothing to offer except exposing flesh, giggling, buttplugs littered the game levels, and to motivate them to move the heroine simply gave them a “reassuring slap on the behind”? I mean, purely because it’s such a reversal of the social double standard, I’d probably laugh briefly at the absurdity of it, but then I’d be a little pissed at my gender being so misrepresented. I think it’d be just as offensive the other way around, to be honest.
I might’ve totally misunderstood what you were getting at, actually.
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“if Duke was a woman and she went around saving wimpy dudes and patting them on the ass”
Mod waiting to happen?
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OK, not going to buy this game then.
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Seriously? We really talking about the maturity of a game that has a section where you pick up shit and throw it at people?
It is, at least, thematically appropriate, funny or not.
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This.
Still, how much would you bet that if it was a man slapping another mans arse, a woman slapping a mans arse, or a woman slapping a womans arse this would never have appeared as a story.
Not that that makes it right, but the reaction in these comments so so massively and moronically overblown it is kind of sad.
There are many issues in womans rights that as a man I would stand up and support, maybe drum up some outrage over – unequal pay, work rights, equal access to employment and education (and as an Engineer in a 99% male dominated industry this is a real issue) health rights, things that contribute to real, measurable gender inequity.
This isn’t one of them.
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Not just a because it’s a man slapping a woman’s arse, but also the context, helpless woman, needs a slap to calm her down, it does make a big difference. Mostly because it’s something rooted in actual, existant sexism.
The important point is that it’s one among many instances ot bias against women in media that contribute to a culture where this can be seen as acceptable. It isn’t going to turn all the players into sexists, but creates an atmosphere where women are okay to be exploited in some ways for men.
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@Starky
Spot on. I agree totally.
@arienette
Do you not think your taking this a little too seriously? Where was the outrage in Postal 2′s ‘capture the bitches’ mode?
I think this will not affect anything, as it is a silly videogame. Duke Nukem 3D didn’t affect anything, Bulletstorm didn’t affect anything and neither will this. The only lasting effect will be these over-the-top comments about how it will make us all mysoginists.
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Great. I think my manshoots have been somewhat lacking in misogyny, so this is just the thing!
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Let’s wait and see what all of this is about when there is some footage to see, shall we? Not that I think that such a “feature” is something worth looking forward to, but people tend to get excited so easily over nothing.
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HE TAPS HER ASS PEOPLE.
RPS, can we avoid the daily mail scare philosophy from now on?
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ditto
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It worries me that you think that ‘just’ tapping her ass is OK…
I agree with squirrelfanatic: we should wait to see it before we judge, but I seriously doubt I will be swayed as to its value.
Just to be clear. I believe in freedom of expression. Developers can make this sort of stuff all they want as far as I am concerned. I love bad taste humour. But this crosses a line for me personally (and I suspect many others). So I will not be subjecting myself to their product. Other people are welcome to enjoy it, I’ll just think less of them ;)
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You’re right, the next time one of my female colleagues is having a bad day I’m going to gently tap them on the ass and I’m sure they’ll soon be in much better spirits. Thank you for putting the issue in perspective.
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@Crimsoneer
A genuine question – are you being sarcastic in mocking people’s outrage? Or are you actually making fun of people who are arguing that sexism is not ok?
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Tapping her ass isn’t okay or any better than slapping her face.
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“Nothing says ‘job well done’ like a firm slap on the behind”
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Hold on, it’s the ass tapping that pushed you over the line? You’ve been tempted by Duke Nukem so far, but now that there is ass tapping involved, you can’t look past the school girl lesbians, plot that involves abduction of young women, or omnipresent strip parlors?
It’s Duke people. It’s as much a satire of chauvinistic, heteronormative culture as a glorification of it. If slap on the ass is what pushes you over the edge, you need to re-examine your values.
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“Oh Duke! I’m so upset! I am wailing and flailing with fear, pain and disgust at what those aliens did to me! Please, spank me to make it better!”
The above was originally intended to highlight how unnecessary the spanking is. But actually, if it were presented somewhat like that (i.e. she ASKS to be spanked for some incomprehensible reason) that would make it “more goofy than offensive” in my book…
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Well, since the ass-tapping is the whole story… yep that’s the problem!
Specifically though, it is the non-consensual aspect of it that bothers me (as I think my above post points shows). All the other stuff is ridiculous and chauvinistic, yes, but until this the player hasn’t been involved in harassment.
Also, in fairness, I haven’t been particularly interested in DNF for a long while. I probably wouldn’t have bought or played it anyway…
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Please look at the last decades comedy TV and tell me when “ass tapping” became offensive exactly.
It is weird as a game mechanic (being prone to overuse) but it is right in line with what Duke has been doing so far
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I guess game-characters should give their consent before being brutally killed by the player then.
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“It’s Cindy, isn’t it? My name’s Duke, I’ve come to rescue you. You poor thing, can you walk? No? Well, we have to get out of here quickly before more of them come, so I need to carry you. And I need one hand free, so I’ll have to carry you firefighter style. It’s going to be uncomfortable, but we’ll get to safety as quickly as possible and then the doctors can have a look at you. One last thing, Cindy, I need you to be brave and keep quiet as much as you can. Is it all right if I pick you up now? OK, up we go. Cindy, remember you need to be quiet. Shhh, there there. You’ll be home soon.” The hostage over his shoulder, Duke patted her backside absently, wondering whether he was telling the truth…
–
Somehow I don’t think so.
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the ass slap is at least “merely” totally misogynistic and sexist, as opposed to also having domestic violence overtones. In the sliding scale of “seriously? do you really feel the need to include this in a videogame in 2011?” it’s a couple of notches less extreme, though whether that makes it come in below the tastelessly tacky bar is a different question
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Generally, I would say that someone pointing a loaded gun at someone else is implicitly consenting to be shot. They are willing participants in a gunfight. If you hold a weapon and intend to use it, you are in combat. So please, don’t compare shooting opponents in shooty games to molesting bystanders/scenery…
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@Giant, fussy whinebag
So, what you are saying is that Jack Thompson was correct on his crusade against GTA, as you can shoot bystanders?
This whole outcry smells like hypocrisy.
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@Kaira: Not really, no. Part of the point of GTA is to be a world simulator: you’re able to attack unarmed bystanders, much as you are in the real world. There’s no real reason to do so, though, and if you get enjoyment out of it I think there’s something odd going on in your head…
Anyway, as I tried to say earlier, my view is that people are welcome to enjoy these sorts of things, but I won’t be one of them and I will think less of them. Just because I disagree with it doesn’t mean I think it has no right to exist…
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I, for one, welcome our slapping overlords!
Since when is DNF supposed to be politically-correct? How about never? :)))
Do away with the prudence, life should be enjoyed!
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If you find that funny knock yourself out. I don’t find it funny, but I also stopped laughing about fart jokes in my teens. So maybe I’m the wrong one to judge this.
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Okay, NOW someone’s gone too far. There’s nothing wrong with laughing at farts. I won’t have fart gags besmirched by comparison to gross sexism.
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Last time I laughed about a fart joke was about the time I played Duke Nukem 3d, thus the mental connection.
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If the lady in question farted on Duke’s hand it would almost be worth having in the game. :)
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I admit, that would be funny :)
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Maybe she did fart in his face and that’s why he’s spanking her?
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@Makariel: Oh, so slapping asses is wrong, demeaning and abusive, while farting on people is funny. Gotcha.
Some people are seriously confused. Maybe because they are being outraged by a game intended to be played for fun, as opposed to being played for educational value and moral guidelines.
Even if the ass-slaping feature is a reflection of the sexist reality, how about we go try harder to do something about the reality rather than the byproduct?
PS: The farting comment was written with a tongue-in-cheek attitude. Don’t get your knickers in a twist over it.
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Yes, some people certainly are confused, well demonstrated.
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For the purposes of gaming, Duke Nukem is a Sexist Asshole. He always has been, always should be. As much as I wouldn’t slap a woman’s ass in real life – and there are some rather enjoyable and intimate situations in which the women herself will happily accept this type of behaviour – I’m going to enjoy the hell out of doing it in game, because in the game I’ll ‘BE’ Duke.
For everyone getting upset, please see all the arguments we’ve ever had about violence, and the delineation between Real Life and Make Believe that we constantly whine about people and tabloid journalists not getting. If it’s ok to shoot some digital bastard in the digital face a million times then it’s ok for digital women to get slapped on their digital backsides. It has about as much moral impact as Doom does. Or are we going to have the same discussion about any Mario game ever released, whose portrayal of women is generally even worse? No, I thought not.
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So much for this crazy idea of video games becoming more mature. This publishing stunt puts DNF on the very bottom of my to-buy-list. Right onto the part of the list that get’s flushed down the toilet.
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have you ever played a duke nukem? the whole idea is NOT to be mature…
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There’s being immature, and there’s selling violence towards women as entertainment. I’m all for the former, but the latter is surely not ok, and really not needed?
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I’d probably agree with you, if it was the case that you could repeatedly beat the girl and see her in pain and cry, that would just be tasteless. I hardly think that’s the case here but then again we’ll see when it comes out.
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Violence toward women is unacceptable, violence toward angry russians, evil nazis and crazy arabs are completely ok. Maybe we should shoot women and tap on the ass of sexy aliens , would that made this more fair?
Are we going to start balance our fantasy videogames with reality to check what can we do and what not? Because, you know, there is a like a ton stuff you can do in a videogame that you can’t (or shouldn’t) do in reality, it would be awfully boring.
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why is it acceptable in films and books and not in games? is it really because of the “interactivity” of it?
imo, no.
if a game was completely tame but had a cutscene showing horrible stuff which is shown daily in films or books (i.e. with no interactivity), the media and probably you would go all apeshit about it anyway.
double standards. videogames are just what gangster rap was in the 90s (80s?)
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@heretic.
Videgames are NOT what the hip-hop movement was in the 80s.
Just, no.
And IMO yes the players agency has alot to do with why this feels more offensive.
Also you would not get a character slapping a women non-consensually in other media these days without strong mitigating context. Although arguably, it is “appropriate” for Duke as a character to hit a lady on the arse, is it appropriate for you, me, and that 12 year old over there to do it?
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@Heretic: I played Duke 3D when it came out, which was 15 years ago. I thought games might have moved on since then, but apparently I’m wrong.
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You realize there were Duke Nukem games BEFORE 3D, right?
Because there were, and I don’t remember any of them being sexist, or anything other than a difficult shooter.
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@Foxfoxfox
re your question as to whether its ok for me you or some 12 year old to do it, in the context of a game, yes, yes and no. the game is rated 17+ no 12 year olds should be playing it, if they are then that’s down to their parents. The game is aimed entirely at adults, and any sane adult knows the difference between fantasy and reality.
DNF doesn’t condone this behaviour in real life any more than GTA condones murdering cops and prostitutes
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I wonder if you can still give her dollars to see her tits, that would be controversy.
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Duke is duke, news at 11. I hope I can pay to see (uncensored) tits too, I expect no less.
Hail to the king baby!
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hear hear!
though tbh in duke nukem 3D the tits were so pixelated it kinda looked like they were censored anyway…
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Funny how “I was just gently give her a reassuring slap.” and “it was more goofy than offensive” was exactly what I told the judge. Stupid bitch still sent me to jail, can you believe that? I bet she was one of those lesbos who haven’t been fucked by a real man in ages!
And no I don’t see why having a multiplayer mode where strong men have to slap women could in some way be a bad idea?
It’s just fun!
And if it gets cut from the final game, it’s all just because those lesbian communist femi nazis hate free speech and freedom of expression and try to shove their agenda down our throats!
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sure didnt get sent to jail for all the murders though, because that is nowhere near as bad as sexual harassment
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I’D BUY THAT FOR A DOLLAR!
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BIG MONEY! BIG PRIZES! I LOVE IT!
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This game is so typical… it encourage the alien impregnation culture!
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I must concur with many people here, this is a lost sale from me. When we see such blatant sexism and objectification of women we need to let people know it’s not okay. It’s hard enough to find decent representations of women in games without shit like this.
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I’m quite confident this thing was added by gearbox and wasn’t in the original 3D Realms game.
That said, it’s JUST ONE MULTIPLAYER MODE GUYS, it’s not like his catchphrase is “it’s time to chew bubblegum and slap bitches, and I’m all out of bubblegum” now.
I just think, time will tell if the game is good or not. I’m just happy to see Forever getting released, it’s something I though it wasn’t possible.
And if it’s even half the good of Duke Nukem 3D I’ll be very happy with it.
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the ones talking about sexism never played a Duke Nukem game
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Sounds pretty much what to expect from Duke. I’ll buy it, haters gonna hate, and so forth.
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The best response to this would be if everyone just sighed and bought battlefield 3 and ignored this overhyped crap.
The game is already going to lose tens if not hundreds of millions. It couldnt happen to a more worthy franchise.
They just *know* that gamers will jump like lemmings to defend gaming to anyone, and they do this because its cheaper than the equivilant ad-spend. It’s frankly pathetic, and a sign that they can’t design games for shit. Nor, clearly can they produce them, as this one has taken longer than the fucking moon landings.
I’d be embarrased as fuck to work on a game pulling pathetic stunts like this.
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Well said cliffski.
When people are choosing to create big outrage-inducing publicity stunts instead of talking about the product itself… it is usually a sign the product isn’t very good, and they know it.
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The outrage and volume is coming from people like you Cliffski. If you didn’t let little things like this get your back up and rage about it on the forums, then no-one would feel that they have to defend the fact that games are made for all kinds of people, not just you.
Dislike it all you like, criticise it for being crap, if it is crap, when it comes out and you’ve actually played it, but don’t make crass suppositions and generalisations based purely on the fact that you don’t like the subject matter.
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I don’t want games made for people who find slapping a woman to be entertainment. Nor do i want interactive cross burnings sims, or rape simulations.
I don’t think I’m alone in wanting games to grow up in the way they treat women. You only have to look at the grief girl gamers get, to see how far we have to go to drag gamers attitdues into the 1980s, let alone 2011.
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Way to go massively OTT with your examples. From a playful slap on the arse to rape? That’s like going from a wedgie to disemboweling someone.
There are plenty of examples of this in other mainstream media and on primetime tv. Games should be treated no differently.
You say ‘gamers attiudes’ as if we are still some small geeky clique locked in our bedrooms who never grew up. Gamers are EVERYONE these days. Gamers attitudes are everyone’s attitudes. As such, different games are made to appeal to different people, just like books, just like movies, just like TV.
Fortunately, it’s not up to you to decide what games are and are not acceptable for everyone else based purely on what you do or don’t like.
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@Donkeyfumbler
>From a playful slap on the arse to rape? That’s like going from a wedgie to disemboweling someone.
He didn’t say one caused the other. He said he wouldn’t like having that presented as entertainment, either.
>There are plenty of examples of this in other mainstream media and on primetime tv. Games should be treated no differently.
“But other media do it” is not a very strong defense in my opinion, it is just a variant on the bandwagon. Racism was ok in films and books for quite some time, that did not make it right.
>Fortunately, it’s not up to you to decide what games are and are not acceptable for everyone else based purely on what you do or don’t like.
Nowhere did I see cliffski demand censorship or claim he had the final say in things. He is arguing his viewpoint, just as you are. And you are right, all sorts of people play games these days, and some of them obviously have a negative view on this. The one who seems to have a big problem with this is you.
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well put. One could argue that if you don’t like this misogynistic infantile rubbish just ignore the game. However pulling this kind of stunt just cheapens the entire media. How is gaming supposed to overcome the prejudices thrown around by outlets such as fox media when games such as this are actively reinforcing them?
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@Lars.
>He didn’t say one caused the other. He said he wouldn’t like having that presented as entertainment, either.
I didn’t say he claimed that one caused the other. Rather than lumping this in the same category as rape simulators was massively OTT (which it is).
>“But other media do it” is not a very strong defense in my opinion, it is just a variant on the bandwagon. Racism was ok in films and books for quite some time, that did not make it right.
I get it – you don’t like it, and you don’t think it should appear in any medium. That’s fine and your opinion, but the fact is that there are plenty of people who disagree with you. Oh, and I wasn’t using the ‘it appears in films’ line as a defense, just trying to make the point that games should be judged in the same way as other media.
>Nowhere did I see cliffski demand censorship
Cliffski’s line was ‘I don’t want made games made for other people who…………”. Now that may not be demanding censorship, but it’s certainly asking for it.
> The one who seems to have a big problem with this is you.
Hmmm, so Cliffski comes on and starts effing and blinding and I post a fairly calm response about allowing games to be made for all sorts of people and treating them in the same way as films and TV, and yet you say that I have the problem with this topic?
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To the protesters: I guess you haven’t been really looking forward to the REAL DN3D sequel then, the original wasn’t exactly political correctness central, mind.
I do think the game is supposed to be over-the-top, immature, full of steroids, political-incorrectness all around… it is supposed to make the die hard Duke fans young (or teenage for that matter) again. This game will be, as I see it, the first and foremost, a fanservice, a nostalgic piece from another era (it was supposed to be still a late 90s/early 00s game originally after all).
Ever since I first played DN3D I finished the elementary school, had my first sex, played bazillion of other games, finished the high school, started (and still far from finished if ever) going to university…not all that much happened, but I guess the older (the one that were actually of the right age to play the game) fans may have gotten married,taken on mortgages, gotten stable long-hours jobs, kids come along…so I don’t see why we can’t let them have a bit of nostalgic fun, really. Oh, sometimes I’d long for the 90s where slapping someone on the behind wasn’t a thing for the first page headlines…at least not in Central/Eastern Europe
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And I long for the early 1900s when women weren’t allowed to have their own bank accounts or vote. Good times!
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I played and enjoyed the original Duke 3D, but this really turns me off. And everyone saying “Duke has always been like this” makes me realize I’ve been a hypocrite.
“Give me a little bit of titillating sexism, but not too much!”
It’s not worth it. Sexism hurts people and I can give up a few stupid jokes and even a few fun video games to try to make the world less hurtful. I wish my daughters could live in a world where people did not find this crap entertaining.
This game sucks and the original Duke 3D sucks and I’m ashamed that I ever enjoyed it. I repent. And I’m voting with my wallet. I’m not buying DNF. I’m not buying Bulletstorm. I’m not buying games with this kind of sexist crap.
Is it hypocritical to draw the line at sexism when I enjoy games that are full of murder and killing and violence? I don’t know, but I feel like there’s a qualitative difference between the fantasy, “I wish I could run around shooting people and blowing things up” and “I wish I could treat women as sex objects.” Maybe it’s that the average gamer is much more likely to actually do the latter in real life?
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Oh wow. So do these people complaining even know anything about the Duke?
Have they played the original? I highly doubt it.
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Played the original, finished it, found it distasteful even back then.
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So?
If you found distasteful the original , I guess finding distasteful the sequel is quite fitting.
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why did you finish it if it was distasteful… maybe SECRETLY you ENJOYED it.
EDIT: err anyway what do you mean about the original, there’s a bunch of duke games you know…
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So basically, if you think DNF’s portrayal of woman is a sad affair, you’re not allowed to complain about it; either it’s okay because the first installment did it too, or because “it’s not your kind of game”?
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If this is the Duke Nukem I know spanking those women will just cause them to explode into a cloud of dollar bills whilst more enemies teleport in. I don’t want that happening near my base’s capture point.
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God, I can’t wait for the inevitable outraged Wot I Think.
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Been thinking a little about why this immediately seems like a bad idea to me.
Is it because of violence against women (if so, why is violence against men OK)? No, because I had no issue with shooting female splicers in Bioshock, I’d have no issue if CoD 8 let you play as female soldiers, etc.
Is it because of violence against non-combatants? Again no, if there were female scientists in the original Half Life, I wouldn’t have shot them, but it wouldn’t have upset me that people did. Equally, a quick knock, on the head or on the bum is nothing compared to what happens to civvies in games all the while.
No, it’s simply the parallels with domestic violence that make this very uncomfortable. The “flag” is relying on Duke for protection, while at the same time not having a choice about going with him. And he hits her. And domestic violence is a horrible, insidious thing, that while perhaps not a blight on our society is certainly more common than you’d like to think (2 domestic murders a week – about a 6th of all murders – in the UK, 25% of all violent crime). And anything that seems to encourage the thinking “that bitch needs a slap to sort her out” feels like it’s sending the wrong message. Suggesting it’s just a light-hearted thing only adds to that. (Oh, and making it a spanking rather than a face slap makes it more implying of sexual violence rather than domineering. Not sure that is any better).
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@Everyone in the previous comments supporting this
Immaturity in fine, it’s fun, there’s no need to be serious all the time. But just because 20 years ago they could do this is doesn’t mean we should now. It simply isn’t okay to treat women like this in a such a high profile game. There’s a difference between being politically incorrect and just being offensive.
I’m willing to bet most of the supporters are men and I get that it can be an especially difficult thing to understand from a male perspective as we’re in a priviliged position of not having to put up with this stuff throughout our lives. This game is reinforcing damaging views and I won’t have it.
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ok.
but please don’t have any of the other (much more high profile) crap too: rap, films and books which glorify all these things which you don’t like.
don’t take it out just on video games yo!
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@ arienette – I couldn’t have put it better myself. Totally agree with you.
I don’t often post on here, but I do feel strongly about this.
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Women being portrayed as sex objects is offensive, but men being portrayed as meatheaded pigs is totally OK. Huh.
Also, this is Duke, I thought it was supposed to be satirical anyway. The outrage seems silly.
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“…we’re in a priviliged position of not having to put up with this stuff throughout our lives.”
Speak for yourself.
“This game is reinforcing damaging views…”
But is it though? Or is it just a joke in bad taste? Is there any way of telling?
I see these kind of claims a lot, but I never see any real evidence. If someone could prove that this ass-slapping thing will have a measurable effect on people’s attitudes (and consequently their actions) then this would be a very big deal indeed. Otherwise it’s hard to see how this is any worse than any of the other ‘immoral’ things I do in computer games all the time.
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@choconutjoe
Please look up the gender politics concept of privilige.
If it is a joke it’s a very bad one where the poor taste far weighs the harmful reinforcement of male dominance in society. It’s not just the slap, it’s the context, the helplessnes and panic of the woman, put in her place by a powerful man.
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EDIT: Reformated the whole thing so that it makes a bit more sense. The post developed into a rant that addressed more issues then the ones raised by choconutjoe..
But is it though? Or is it just a joke in bad taste?
Yes it is. It’s reinforcing damaging views and it is a bad joke in bad taste.
You have to slap poor defenceless women on their ass to make them follow you to your base so that you can score. Do I really have to explain to you why this might be reinforcing damaging views? Do you really think that everybody who plays this game will think “Ah, those intelligent and witty game developers, who no doubt have all read Simone de Beauvoir’s ” Le Deuxième Sexe”, are using this multiplayer mode to make fun of and challenge our heteronormative world view and I totally get the joke and will always respect women and never think that women are sex objects, to be collected and herded by strong men!”
By creating a game mode in which you have to save defencless, objectified women by means of slapping them on their butts, the developers are reinforcing the view that women are defenceless objects that are ok to be slapped on their butts. And no, saying “it’s just a joke” doesn’t make it better – because we all know, that it’s not meant as an attack on masculinity and it’s not so much making fun of these things as just pretending to do so.
And could we all please stop using the tired old “it’s just satire” argument. Satire and Irony are the whores of reactionary assholes everywhere who’ll use them as windowdressing for their stupid, hateful and outdated views “Oh, but it’s just a joke and if you don’t get it then you are boring and hate fun and you take everything too seriously!”.
Fun fact: 100% of people who say that video games don’t influence people and are thereby allowed to pull off any kind of racist, misygonist and reactionioary shit also send death threats to Roger Ebert for claiming that games are not art. It’s true, I read it on the internet.
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@arienette
I’m well aware of the gender politics concept of privilege, and I don’t think for a second it justifies making crass generalizations about people you’ve never met. Bigotry is bad whichever direction it goes in.
You can wax lyrical about the context all day long, you’ve still failed to provide anything like empirical evidence to support you’re claim.
@Okami
Yes it is. It’s reinforcing damaging views
Again, my point: How do you know this? Is this anything more than a wild guess?
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Of course it won’t. No one makes decisions about the world based on their experiences in DNF. I still think this is pretty messed up and won’t be buying it, but jeesh!
It’s Duke Nukem, it’s misogynist crap, we’ve known that for over ten years, just don’t buy it like me if you don’t like it. No point wasting your energy here.
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@Okami
“Do I really have to explain to you why this might be reinforcing damaging views?”
No you don’t have to explain why it might be. You have prove why it is.
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@Okami
So you think people on the whole are too thick to decide for themselves and must be lead to the desired outcome? I find that outlook as offensive as the sexist behaviour Duke carries out. And yes, satire and irony are used by the right, as are many other things. It would be a bit odd to stop using them because they do too. They use knives and forks presumbly too, are you going to start eating with your hands even when it’s not fishfingers and chips for dinner?
For the record, yes it’s in bad taste and it’s not becoming behaviour but is completely apropos to the satire of the character and the series. That some people won’t get that doesn’t mean you should dumb it down to appease everyone.
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So what? It’s Duke Nukem. It’s always been about this kind of stuff. Lowest denominator young male power fantasy.
I never liked it before and this won’t make me like it more. But neither like it less, as it’s doing (or going to do) nothing I wouldn’t expect from it.
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I’m actually appauled by this whether it makes it into the game or not. The very fact they are even considering it makes me shake my head in sadness. It’s another nail in the coffin for why I won’t buy this game. It’s a further shame that this kind of distasteful stunt will drive more women away from games and reinforce the perceptions of misogyny in gaming.
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why are you worried that this represents gaming as a whole?
there are games which are geared at a specific audience, this one is for men.
there are magazines geared at specific audiences too… playboy probably shows women in a degrading sort of way, oh no it will drive women away from the magazine industry!
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@heretic
It seems to me to be more targeted at a charicature of men rather than an anyone I’ve met.
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true, I imagine most men you’ve met don’t act like duke, but then that’s the beauty of video games, it allows normal men to enjoy a media which portrays them acting like kids sometimes :)
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@Jubaal
But video games are on the whole misogynistic, as is wider society. Why would you expect things to take place in a bubble, or that video games should be any more progressive than other media?
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Duke slapping a lady’s arse? Meh. Nothing to write home about. Everything in Duke is objectified: the men, the women, the bubblegum, everything. Tongue is firmly planted in cheek. Duke isn’t sending “messages”, he’s guffawing in the back of the classroom with a towel around his shoulders, sunglasses firmly in place and party streamers tied to his tackle dancing in the wind.
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There’s a difference between what this says about Duke as a character, and what this as a piece of culture says about the mindset of the people making it and the people defending it.
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It’s silly, it’s juvenile, but then what isn’t in Duke Nukem? It’s an adult game that small children shouldn’t be getting their sticky hands on. It’s not saying that this behaviour is appropriate because nothing about Duke is appropriate.
This isn’t about gender equality or correctness. The entire game is a mashup of stereotypes and the exploitation of everyone involved.
So I say again: not really anything to write home about. And certainly nothing to get up in arms over.
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I’ma just leave this here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0GW0Vnr9Yc
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you 4chan monkey you xD
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Distasteful! Film industry showing again how immature they are.
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@acosta
so you have something against all forms of media?
that’s fair enough by me. I just can’t stand people who criticise video games while not coughing at other forms of media which deal with the exact same things.
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A) Features both men and women inflicting violence, unlike the matter here
B) Is actually funny
Relevance: little
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I don’t think there’s anything particularly offensive about this. Complaining about something that is obviously meant to be silly (perhaps even in a postmodern, “oh-look-at-how-ironically-poliitcally-incorrect-we-are” kind of way?) is akin to taking Bulletstorm seriously and thinking it really does cause you to rape people, or in this case become a misogynist. Am I the only one who thinks that Duke Nukem is, more than anything, a parody of the one-liner-spouting, womanising action hero? From what I’ve seen, this is more ludicrously over-the-top than any of the previous games, so I don’t see what the fuss is all about.
@arienette: you’re taking things too seriously. If you continue along that line, most games should be banned, because they reinforce the idea of “man the hunter”, discriminate against Russians, are hurtful to aliens (you never know what they’ll think about all these alien-blasting games when they finally contact us!), show a distinct preference for cubes over cones, etc., etc.
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With one major difference: whereas the rape story was (as John Walker beautifully showed us) completely without any sort of factual basis, there is a lengthy discourse about how male-centric media production (of which this is a very obvious example) promotes misogynic views.
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You’re a guy.
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You sure you know what post-modernism is?
Other than that, I take sexism seriously yes, and rightly so. I am a man, but I want nothing more than to see games (and media in general) show us other viewpoints. Even then, a man doesn’t have to be a hunter, and a hunter doesn’t have to be misogynistic.
You’re putting far too many words in my mouth, I don’t want to ban anything, but I don’t think we as people should accept this treatment of women in media. It contributes to an overall culture of sexism in which these things can be taken as normal. Put yourself in the shoes of a woman who may have to put up with or have experienced sexual harrassment at some point. We shouldn’t trivialise it.
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@Stijn: you’re right, that is a difference. I think, though, that you can compare it to the old chestnut in which violence in computer games is thought to cause violence in real life, for which there is no proof. In the same way, misogynistic behaviour in computer games does not translate to misogynistic behaviour in real life.
@Okami: not sure what you’re getting it. If it was meant as an ad hominem (i.e. “You’re a real man, man!”), I’d appreciate it if you didn’t do that, since you don’t know me. Otherwise, guilty as charged.
@arienette: yes, I do. (But I would admit that only the final product will reveal whether it can be taken as some form of postmodernist commentary, perhaps about exactly the kind of behaviour we are discussing and the morals that it represents, but it is sort of the impression I have at present. Edit: I may be giving the game more credit than it deserves, but ah well!)
Anyway, you say that the sexism in this game “contributes to an overall culture of sexism in which these things can be taken as normal.” This is similar to what I think Stijn was getting at: if we accept violence in game as being somehow unconnected to real-life behaviour, then why should we make a fuss about certain other elements in games, vis-a-vis the slapping of a digital lady’s behind in a silly game? I think it’s a case of having your cake and eating it too: if you don’t think that shooting people in games will cause you to shoot people in real life, then why are you worried about a game in which, apparently, women are objectified?
Thanks for the discussion, I appreciate it.
Edit: clarified something a bit.
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That’s not what I was getting at at all. Misogyny and violence are two very different things. I’m also not saying playing Duke makes you hate women. What I do believe though is that games like this can (I haven’t played it!) reinforce the long-lasting status quo of portraying women as the weak sex, et cetera – conforming the dominant feminist views on media production – while glorifying masculine, dominant behaviour. Which I personally don’t think is a very healthy premise.
The problem of course is that it’s a subtle, and thus easy to play down. Just like playing violent games will not make you go out to buy a gun and shoot your classmates, but could (research is still inconclusive) theoretically have subtle effects on your attitude towards resorting to violence as a means to resolve conflict.
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I don’t think shooting someone in a game makes you a killer in real life, and I don’t think slapping a woman in a game will make you beat your wife. But modern sexism isn’t overt normally, it’s incredibly subtle things, these potryals in media, in all media, create at atmosphere from which we learn. The difference with violence is society is quicker to teach you violence in real life is unacceptable in overt ways. But sexism is hardly addressed in these more complex manners.
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@hedgemonster:
Actually I wanted to write: Let me guess, you’re a guy.
And by that I mean:
Of course you don’t find anything offensive about something that not only objectifies women but does so in a very base way and also makes what’s basically sexual harrassment appear like it’s a fun thing – because you’re a man and not a woman.
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@Stijn and @arienette:
Both of you make good points that sexism is a more subtle thing than violence (because violence is more easily condemned and controlled), and that misogynistic behaviour in a computer game could promote a culture in which women are treated differently from men. Apologies if I misunderstood you earlier. The problem, though, as you indicate yourselves, is that we don’t know what the effects are, especially as research seems to go back and forth on these issues.
But I think most reasonable human beings will be able to divorce their actions in a game from their actions in real life, which is the original point I was trying to make. Would you agree with that?
@Arienette, you don’t want to ban this behaviour from games (or books, film, etc.), so how would you deal with this problem? “Not accepting it”, as you stated earlier, seems like effectively the same thing, only self-imposed or imposed by others through societal pressure. There is a line to be drawn, certain parametres between which most media functions (the game would be universally condemned if it contained, say, bestiality), so that demonstrates your point that sexism is a function of our society, even if it is to be condemned in real life.
It’s a tricky issue, because if sexism in this game is condemned, it may open another can of worms entirely. Where do you draw the line? Should the Super Mario games be condemned for having an Italian plumber rescue a helpless princess from a reptillian monster? If not, why not? If there is a line to be drawn somewhere, I don’t know where it should be placed or who should draw it in the first place. Perhaps society itself will furnish the answer if DNF ends up selling poorly, but what if it becomes a hit?
Apologies if I’m starting to ramble a bit, but it’s an interesting discussion; thanks again.
Edit: @Okami, I see. Perhaps my sex does preclude me from the necessary experience to properly evaluate the sexism in DNF. In my defence, I can only say that I try to live my life as decently as I can, treating my fellow humans with respect, regardless of sex, race, creed, or age. Games and other media provide me with escapist fun.
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Yeh, I’m very much of the opinion that it’s something we need to police socially, not legally. By which I mean do what some of us here are doing, take a stand against things we find unacceptable and argue the point hard. It’s a matter of educating people more rather than preventing access.
There is no hard and fast line I don’t think, but a lot of it is about the context. Is it only men saving helpless women? Do you save men as well, why do we need to slap them on the arse? Watch something like madmen and it shows sexism but makes very serious points in doing so. Where as duke is exploiting women for entertainment.
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@arienette: I see your point. Societal pressure is the only way to solve the issue, one way or another.
As a final point, it’s perhaps worth noting that in my experience, once you get familar with a game, the theme itself becomes subservient to the game’s rules and mechanics, you sort of mentally strip away the veneer. In other words, the “capture the babe” mode becomes just a variation on the age-old capture the flag: the “women” become simply the objective that you have to capture, interact with (“slap”) when prompted, and then carry back to base to score points and win the match. In that sense, misogynistic behaviour in games is perhaps less harmful than in other media?
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I’m not sure, I mean, I know eventually it gets stripped down in your mind to the base mechanics of what to do and where to go. But that is still essentially reducing the women to a mere object. And a large part of why this crosses the line is a mechanic in which you slap her arse to calm her down, which is rather egregious. Essentially, I don’t think that player agency changes things too much or makes it worse in anyway but that it still contributes to a culture where these things are seen as acceptable.
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@arienette: That is perfectly reasonable, even if I don’t think that, speaking for myself, it’s a problem. Time will tell what the general reaction will be like, and I am curious to try the game out and see what the developers have done to contextualise the action: will it be ridiculously self-conscious and self-deprecating (what I expect it to be) or disappointingly mean-spirited?
Thanks again for the enjoyable discussion.
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I don’t think fox news will be complaining about a bottom slap in a game where Randy Pitchford has proudly said that theres a “interactive gloryhole”, and theres already videos of a certain vibrating object with the line “you know you wanna touch it” :P
I think that sets the tone for the game and a slap on the butt fits right in tbh (as hes saving them from being impregnated by aliens…). Its immature humor yes, but if i’m being honest i like the immature humor a bit so will be getting this to have a laugh.
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Most of you won’t have played God Hand, a work of minor genius that also featured spanking women in a supposedly comical fashion.
The difference was context and tone.
In God Hand, you were spanking women who were trying, for no discernable reason, to kill you. In the same vein you were kicking men in the groin, stamping on chihuahuas and kicking midgets into space. The whole cheerfully misanthropic tone of the game was both entirely undisciminatory and in a distinct vein of self-defence.
Duke Nukem, in the meantime, apparently has you doing it to defenceless, nonaggressive women in order to kidnap them.
The point is not that spanking people in a game can’t be comical, but that the way this particular game is doing it has uncomfortable undertones of misogyny and domestic violence.
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Um, guys, the Return of Matt Hazard game (which turned out to be a mediocre third person shooter which was much better on paper than in execution) already had the main character spanking female enemies on a regular basis. Considering that Matt Hazard basically was their take on Duke Nukem, I have to say this isn’t particularly surprising.
It’s also not particularly offensive or controversial compared to the entire rest of Duke Nukem Forever. Seriously: it’s just Capture The Scientist mode from Science & Industry but with “babes” instead of Kleiner doppelgangers.
If I was somehow in a real-life situation where I’m in the middle of a war zone on a rescue mission and someone’s freaking out and they refuse to listen and there are enemies all around, then a light spanking is plenty justified. I’m just saying: I’d rather spank someone than let them get themselves killed, regardless of what they look like. It’s the compassionate thing to do. And if they happen to coincidentally be a hot babe, then I’ll just have to spank them in as gentlemanly a manner as possible.
EDIT: Come to think of it, Bayonetta also has a spanking move, among other things. How come it’s not offensive when she does it? Double standard, there.
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We might be the only two here to have played (or even remember) Science & Industry. Good times were had with that Half-Life mod.
Anyway, I agree with you. This spanking just fits in the territory of Duke Nukem. It’s certainly not tasteful, but if I were really pining for a game with any sort of taste, I’d just go play something else.
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citing a shitty console game that nobody played and a game with a heavy bdsm theme doesnt really help here.
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Fuckin’ love Science and Industry.
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I can’t help but feel that people saying ‘OH LOL YOU DON’T CARE ABOUT THE VIOLENCE SO WHY THIS?’ etc are missing the point somewhat. Everyone right minded knows that real violence isn’t something thats cool, but casual stuff like this is somewhat insidiously reinforcing certain behaviours/mindsets. And yes rap videos are often horrifically worse, but we aren’t on a rap music website talking about rap music and just because something is worse doesn’t make other bad stuff ok too.
Plus I like flags. WON’T SOMEONE THINK OF THE FLAGS?
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but casual stuff like this is somewhat insidiously reinforcing certain behaviours/mindsets
[reference needed]
in any case, I would agree with you that people with a disturbed mind would probably be influenced by this (in fact, ANYTHING), much like john lennon’s killer.
however I don’t think it affects normal minded people who can tell the difference between this and reality.
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Oh do go away.
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Sometimes I argue with John that much of gaming is stuck in the mindset of the puerile adolescent. I now realise how wrong I was. Sorry, John (slap!).
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@Lars Westergren wrote “Denying people their agency, establishing power over them as if they are your slave and you are their master… this stuff is funny to you?”
It’s apparently only funny when you assert power over men or monsters by unloading a gun into their face. I don’t see how slapping a fake lady’s bum, one that is generated by my computer for a tongue-in-cheek computer game, is infinitely more offensive.
Edit: reply fail makes me sad.
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>It’s apparently only funny when you assert power over men or monsters by unloading a gun into their face.
I don’t find that funny. In fact I find the constant focus on violence and gore in games rather sad. Games that expect me to laugh at it, like Bulletstorm, especially so.
>I don’t see how slapping a fake lady’s bum, one that is generated by my computer for a tongue-in-cheek computer game is infinitely more offensive.
It is not infinitely more offensive, but I thought it crossed a line.
If you are shooting someone in a game, you are usually taking the role of a liberator or someone who chooses to defend themselves. You are not expected to go around and shoot for instance unarmed civilians in the face for amusement or profit. Some people do that in the real world right now though, like mercenaries hired by Ghadaffi for instance . So a “Soldier of Fortune 2011 – Libyan conflict” game I would find extra offensive and depressive.
And this game expects us to take the role of the aggressor and oppressor here, to reinforce revolting gender roles, and expect us to think it is funny, and “not a big deal”.
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“I don’t find that funny. In fact I find the constant focus on violence and gore in games rather sad. Games that expect me to laugh at it, like Bulletstorm, especially so.”
if you find that focus sad then play games which don’t involve this…
I don’t really get you, you find duke nukem distasteful yet play it through the end… there are intelligent strategy games which are completely tame which would seem to suit you better.
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“If you are shooting someone in a game, you are usually taking the role of a liberator or someone who chooses to defend themselves. You are not expected to go around and shoot for instance unarmed civilians in the face for amusement or profit”
No russian and the legion of GTA players who just go on killing sprees beg to differ. In some games youa re the liberator (ironically in the game in question as well) but not all, in some your the bad guy!
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Lars, I don’t remember Bulletstorm wanting you to laugh at the shooty bits.
I remember it wanted you to laugh at the gay jokes.
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Wow just wow, okay so everyones worried about the whole crass sexism angle but clearly Gearbox havent even considered the logistics of spanking women, how is that supposed to calm a woman down?! Surely that would scare them more!
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REASSURING SLAPS ON THE BUM CAUSE RAPE AND THE COMPULSION TO SHAG KITTENS.
I will NOT buy buying this after 12 years of waiting.
Leads me on to another question. DO consoles really deserve this? Even though i’m not buying it? which I am.
In my humble opinion they (being people who insist on playing FPS’s on the console) should have to wait the same time we all have. Pricks.
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I think that sexism and bigotry will only be truly dead when we can put things like this in games, and nobody complains because nobody even considers the idea that such a thing is conceived of as being acceptable with real women.
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then sexism and bigotry will never be dead.
people still complain about these things appearing in books and books have been around for a loooong time.
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sexism and bigotry will never be dead until people can be sexist and bigoted without anyone calling them out – crane
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There’s a huge difference between irony and simple provocation. This is the point John made about the mass graves in Homefront, and Kieron made about No Russian back in the day. If you’re going to deal with important, sensitive issues like violence against women, war crimes or the killing of civilians, then you’ve got a responsibility to make your treatment of them matter. Otherwise you’re just making cheap gags out of other people’s misery.
The point about irony is that it reveals something about the teller as much as the story. Slapping women is only ironic if it’s done to illuminate something about the kind of mindset that thinks that’s ok (like Mad Men, or that Family Guy sketch someone quoted up thread). If you’re just doing it for a few laughs, you’ve failed miserably. And Jesus, it’s depressing how few people can distinguish between the two.
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“If you’re going to deal with important, sensitive issues like violence against women, war crimes or the killing of civilians, then you’ve got a responsibility to make your treatment of them matter. ”
was homefront or cod trying to deal with it in a responsible way? maybe, from popular opinion it looks as if they failed, but the thing is… ITS OK.
if they tried to deal with it responsibly but failed, thats fine, you have to try a few times before getting it right.
if on the other hand they were just being distasteful… well… ITS OK TOO. this distastefulness will appeal to some people and not to others, in any case its mission accomplished for them if their objective was to appeal to some people and not others.
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“its mission accomplished for them if their objective was to appeal to some people and not others.”
I guess my point is that, if you’re dealing with important stuff, your objective should be a little bigger than this.
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Oh, lovin’ all the offended chucklefucks in here. It’s you people who practically assure I’m buying the game as soon as it’s out.
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do you own a dickwolves shirt?
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Yeah, especially since everybody knows you calm down panicking women with a reassuring slap to the face.
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Using virtual guns to kill virtual people is mature and respectable form of entertainment, a virtual slap on a virtual ass is a immature and outrage act against humanity.
I enjoy FPSs but if are going to make a relation between screen action and reality almost every thing you do in the game pales in comparison to the act of shotting someone.
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Perfectly put, 100% agree.
Its interesting that all the outraged anti-sexist people repeat their anti-sexism chants but this point (“yeah, and mass-murdering is ok?”) was made several times but so far left unanswered…
Why so?
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Ditto, double standards galore around here.
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I addressed this very point above:
To which I would add that I also thought “No Russian” was pushing things somewhat, but let’s not get into that…
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It’s an interesting point. One answer is that fighting and killing people who threaten us or things we hold dear is culturally acceptable. Most of the time the “mass murder” we commit in games is against people who are established in the plot as evil and/or threatening. Killing unarmed or innocent people is less common, and more controversial, as the No Russian example shows. The justification for violence may be weak, but there usually is one.
The real answer is perhaps that we don’t take enough notice of what games ask us to do. And the most interesting games, to me, at least, are those that ask us to think in a little more detail about what it really means to use violence – Deus Ex being the king example.
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Ditto what Giant, fussy whingebag (:D) and deejayem said.
Just because people aren’t saying anything about mass violence right now (hint: there’s a reason they’re called MANSHOOTS around these parts) does not somehow invalidate people taking issues with sexism.
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hello my name is pyjamarama and I cant distinguish between an action game glorifying action movie violence and a game glorifying domestic violence
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Hello my name is poop and I can’t distinguish between a video game and domestic violence.
Edit: You can tell when someone has a great point by the way that they move up and down a thread replying with the same answer, without waiting to be responded too. :P
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Well hell almost nothing is worse than shooting someone, so lets get cracking! In this game, you should rape the girls and get them pregnant yourself, then the aliens can’t also impregnate them. Sounds good right? Better than ‘shotting’ them isn’t it?
Seriously, you basically saying “genocide is out, everything else is in”.
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I’m a man, so my opinion is unequivocally biased and irrelevant on this topic, because of my gender.
Let’s leave wild accusations of bias due to male dominance sexual fantasies at the door, because that’s not only entirely sexist, it’s also hypocritical and horrendously immature. Plus you could well be talking to a gay man, who has no sexual interest in women.
Getting this wound up by a satirical work like Duke Nukem is idiotic – it’s like a die-hard Tory complaining of the John Major sketches in Spitting Image. Satire. We’re allowed to depict many, many things in art and entertainment that we’re not allowed to in real life, and in satire this can go very, very far, as it does here. Of course, we can see genuinely insensitive examples in other games – Resident Evil 5 was accused of racial insensitivity – so it does exist. But this is a game where, as has been frequently mentioned above, an unabashed and deliberate stereotype of male meat-head heroism shoots aliens. That’s the concept. The concept has made Duke Nukem notorious but also unique.
Also – Isn’t the argument that objectifying women in video games harms the role of women in the real world the same argument that says that violence in video games causes real world violence? And isn’t a outright moralistic ban on deliberate depictions of sexism in video games merely bubble-wrapping a problem and allowing it to brew under the surface? If the womanising side of Duke’s character and world was edited out due to prudence reasons, wouldn’t he be far less of an interesting character?
I’m not a gender expert, and worse, I’m male, so I don’t doubt I’ve missed a good counter-argument here or there. To the people who have decided to not buy this game, there’s nothing wrong with that. But I don’t think this really justifies an immediate moralist counter-argument.
Please note there was no use of the vacuous term “politically correct” in this post. Escapist Magazine’s The Big Picture has a good episode on PC and I hope everyone here watches it.
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If nothing else it’s pretty obvious that the world is a lot more politically correct today than it was when Duke Nukem 3D was released.
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you might say the world has grown up a bit.
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I’m not sure that’s true.
DN3D had strippers who you could pay to see the goods. Everyone expected the same from DNF. I’m sure some people got upset at the objectification there, but they’re probably much more busy trying to get actual strip clubs shut down.
It’s the implicit encouragement of (and seemingly supportive attitude towards) sexual and domestic violence, behind a “oh it’s playful and funny” screen that’s got people wrankled.
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Grown old and cranky by the looks of things. Has anyone actually seen this “domestic violence”? Or is this just another moral majority “think of the children” borderline baseless outburst? Because a lot of what I’m seeing here I’d expect from Fox News.
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Navagon, you need to keep in mind that there is very little room for moderate discourse when it comes to sexism on the internet.
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Wait, what? The Fox News analogy doesn’t work, does it? Or am I going crazy, here? Fox News has always struck me as strongly supporting old world values, the sort who’d drive the world back 50 years if they could. So teaching kids that patting women on the bum is okay would be perfectly fine according to the olde worlde view of Fox News.
I thought that was always the problem people had with Fox News.
And it isn’t the objectification that bothers me either, really. Just people trying to justify it. Like I said earlier, I think Pitchfork is trolling us in earnest now. I said that because he doesn’t try to justify anything that happens in Forever as okay. And yet parts of the RPS community are doing just that. Think about it.
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I might be wrong about this but I thought that Fox News existed primarily as a means of trolling its republican audience? Games are new and scary to concerned parents. Spanking womens’ arses shows plainly that all games ever made teach kids to be wife beating alcoholic thugs just like their old m-
Oh okay, maybe you’ve got a point there.
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@pipman3000: “you might say the world has grown up a bit.”
You might also say that the world has become toxically pretentious.
Seriously. All this outrage comes across as stupidly disingenuous. If growing up means becoming morally outraged over the minor details in over-the-top videogames, then count me the fuck out. To me, this whole things seems so much more childish coming from the people who’re outraged.
If people want to be outraged over something real, maybe it should be that it’s taken a decade for this game to come out and the result is probably going to be a pretty boring game.
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it’s okay guys it not like women play video games anyone!!!!!1111111
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RE: Most of the wonderful internet responses to this. It’s the classic south park response; Anyone who gives a shit one way or the other is painted as “frothing at the mouth” and “self righteous”. Any hint at all that gaming, by and large, is still the domain of young men or teenage boys and their distortions of femininity, and that this is anything other than ideal for any medium? Self righteous feminazi, blowing everything out of proportion. Do people honestly believe that an artificial representation of any act is in no way a mirror of the common values of a group, despite its nature as fiction? And are people really being so fucking thick as to think that the “B B But the other boys did it!” is any form of moral justification? “Other games depict violence, in a variety of forms and levels of seriousness, therefore the fictional, played for comic effect belittling of women is equivalent entirely”, completely ignoring the fact that there is no evidence that people who play games as recreation are any more violent than others, there IS heaps of evidence that the merest mention of the fact that a player is female in an online, anonymous gaming setting leaver her open to a torrent of gender specific abuse.
If gamers were often blowing people away in real life with shotguns, then maybe it would be time to seriously examine and even condemn the way violence is depicted in games. However, gamers are guilty on a depressingly common basis of harassing and abusing women. Therefore it makes sense to examine negative portrayals of women in games, wouldn’t you say?
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hello my name is Bodmizer and I cant distinguish between an action game glorifying action movie violence and a game glorifying domestic violence
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“However, gamers are guilty on a depressingly common basis of harassing and abusing women. ”
Wut, Fox News much:-O? I wouldnt know…if your experience is different, thats another story…
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In my experience it is extremely common in online communities for women to be harassed and treated abhorrently – sometimes without it necessarily being visible to those who don’t engage in it. For females of the species, misogyny and bullshit are often – if not the bread and butter – then at least the red, sticky jam of online interaction.
Or doesn’t this count?
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@ Prosper0_cz – I could have sworn that RPS had done a story on http://fatuglyorslutty.com/ I don’t know if that counts as “extensively documented,” given it’s only one platform, but there is some documentation.
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First thing about the game that makes me want to buy it (well… aside of that trailer and it being Duke), can’t wait till Postal 3 comes around and see people’s reactions if it’s anything like 2… cuz ppl want to take their pixel-arts all serious nao.
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It’s a little sexist, but Duke SHOULD be a little sexist.
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Spot on.
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I don’t really take any stance on the issue, because I kind of expected this sort of thing from Duke Nukem.
However, I do find OXM’s stance on this to be appalling, and something that always just makes me feel nauseous thinking about their mindless fawning over whatever “big” game the publishers have punted them that week. Finding a word of critique in any of their previews or editorials is impossible, which has lead me to completely discount their editorial integrity.
Even the wording of that quote suggests that the writer believes it to be inappropriate, but was overruled by his editor as being overly (read: at all) critical. It’s why I’ve had to ignore 90% of the games media in favour of trusting RPS to hold onto its credibility.
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Perhaps in the midst of combat we will note the ludicrousness of Duke, the way he treats women as objects to be saved, things that can be reassured as he likes, and we will learn something. Or perhaps a bunch of teenagers will giggle about it and reinforce their rather one sided view of women. Only the future can tell.
So why is the difference to violence? There are a paucity of games that actually require you to murder innocents to succeed, and while GTA is the easy go to, your opponents are usually defending themselves. Also, in the context of a game its possible to make arguments about the world thats been constructed. Multiplayer lives in a universe which is already more than a little hateful.
If I’m honest its not so much the actions of this game that bother me, although it is tedious, its that if the mainstream media get hold of it, we need to defend it. I will always defend free speech, but find it a bit distressing when I have to defend garbage like this.
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hello my name is misterk and I cant distinguish between an action game glorifying action movie violence and a game glorifying domestic violence.
atleast you know it is garbage while you say that :)
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huh? I don’t quite understand your point? I think I articulated at least part of the difference…
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Oh I see, you’ve gone through the thread responding to comments without reading them properly, to the point where you attack someone who is agreeing with you. Bravo sir. Bravo.
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There’s nothing more embarrassing than a bunch of nerds trying to defend women, like drunken friday knight in shining armor syndrome, but on a pc gaming website, on a tuesday morning.
You won’t see more “action” if you defend them, y’know.
Personally, I can’t wait for a bit of arse slapping.
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theres nothing more embarassing than a bunch of nerds revealing themselves as sexist on the internet literally every time something like this comes up
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I like your name
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I’ll admit, this one cracked me up a little.
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It’s all been down hill since Kieron’s rather sad little cat calling ruins lives effort to be honest.
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Now that would be the time when many trolls came out of the woodwork and claim women who dress provocatively deserve to get raped. That’s not taken out of context, that is what some commentes actually said. though those were edited out of the RPS article you could still read them on the original article RPS linked to. Yet somehow it was Kieron who was called the troll. (Relevant I feel http://www.chainbear.com/?issue=596&PHPSESSID=d0e5a998171a37b51971332750c2f1b2)
Nothing sadder than a nerd proving they’re socially inept chauvinist scum. I lost a lot respect for some of the regular RPS commenters that day.
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am I the only one who gets the impression that this is an attempt to drum up some outrage publicity
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Perhaps, but that doesn’t mean the debate isn’t worth having.
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@poop
Seeing you are the one who has provided most of the outrage, it seems very successful
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As much as I find the idea of this both unsurprising and unappealing, I’m more worried that it’s been turned into a post on RPS.
This kind of thing runs a little close to tabloid tactics for my taste. You’re working people up over something none of them have seen. Of course, people don’t have to actually witness something to know if it’s offensive or not, but what we have here are lots of people discussing the finer points of a scene they have no experience of. How can we put it into context, or discuss it properly when none of us have played it?
I don’t know, it just seems a little lazy to put this up on RPS and then offer no opinion. After some great articles by John recently it seems a little cheap to point at this, shrug and leave everyone to work themselves up about it.
Also, please don’t get me wrong, I’m not defending the game. I just think the original post was maybe a bit pointless.
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Beyond the fact that Duke Nukem is a game where women are accessory and mostly irrelevant objects and it is fine (unless you’re a hypocrite that hated the first games for this very reason and still post here), what really grates is the fact that this comments section gives in to the intended controversy and provides free publicity to a game which doesn’t even look worth it.
This is the first time that I’m glad I’m not a RPS subscriber anymore. And that makes me honestly, profoundly sad. I feel bad and dirty, both because of my own gut reaction and because of many commenters here including Walker.
Sorry for the drama queen ending. Sort of a cathartic way of dealing with disgust, I’m aware of it so you don’t have to point it out.
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Do violent games condone/promote violence inreality? Y/N
Do misogynistic games condone/promote violence towards women in reality? Y/N?
I’m going to play this and enjoy it because I enjoy some political incorrectness in my Duke Nukem and I understand the difference between a make-believe dodgy joke in poor taste and true violence towards women.
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I would say that the game can be seen as condoning both but fantasy violence between a really buff dude and some lizard people is a far less real issue then violence against women.
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Replace lizards with people in a real world setting ala Grand Theft Auto?
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its still action movie violence, please refer to that post I copypasted all over the comment thread
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Action movie violence vs. action movie misogyny?
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I was totally looking forward to the next Duke game, until now. Sexism in my Duke Nukem game? NO WAY! I’m boycotting this! That will teach em that before releasing a game you let Alec Meer check it for any profanity. Like the guys from the Witcher 2 did.
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poop: Your arguments are indeed stellar. Except that usually nowadays, the opponents are not some lizard people but human-looking (and you are not just shooting, but in case of e.g.BLOPS also torturing them) and “the women” are not real women but stereotypic virtual stripper bimbos… So yeah, there is definitely a difference.
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Duke is like Blazing Saddles people… would anyone call Blazing Saddles racist?
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“where all da white women at?”
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Blazing Saddles was satiricial. This does not sound like satire.
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Duke is VERY much satire. It’s a satirical look at the macho man action hero.
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You are massively incorrect, Duke has never ever EVER been satire. That’s just horse shit. If you knew anything about the 3d Realms Devs behind it, you’d know that Dukes opinions are very closely related to their own.
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I was too young to read much about 3D Realms at the time but if Duke Nukem isn’t satire then I’m the king of England.
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Having spent plenty of time reading the opinions of the top people and Devs at 3Drealms over the last decade i can safely say Duke is most definitely NOT satire. George Broussard and his ilk are USA USA USA! dinosaurs that belong in the past.
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I can’t decide whether I’m too old for Duke or if Duke’s just changed. Either way I didn’t laugh when I read this on PCG yesterday, and I’m not laughing now, although I was initially under the impression that it was a slap in the face, not across the rump, due to some poor wording in the article (the PCG article not this one), which takes me from genuinely disturbed to just mildly disturbed but only if I think about it for long enough. I didn’t think much of the PAX footage either if I’m honest.
Still, any distaste aside, the more recent Duke Nukem reveals haven’t made me giggle, they’ve just made me raise an eyebrow. I have a theory that Duke has, in the eyes of the gaming world, gone from Parody character to Hero character, meaning Gearbox and possibly 3D Realms before them weren’t making a game in which the main character is a piss take of the macho-hero stereotype, but rather a game in which we celebrate all things Duke, meaning Duke Nukem has come full circle and the parody character now is simply just another macho-hero stereotype, to stick along side gamings many other gravely voiced twats with not a sense of irony in sight.
On the other hand it’s more likely that I’ve changed, and Duke just doesn’t tickle me any more.
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Over the last year I’ve gone from wondering whether this game will ever come out to not giving a damn if it doesn’t. I’m impressed that Gearbox picked it up, but it’s sounding less like my idea of fun each time they release information on it.
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Genius.
This is something that feels weird and misogynist enough to stir up a whole load of a debate and controversy, but unlike, say, having actual boobies or shagging in the game, won’t cause any issues with the classification boards, or really upset the “ban this sick filth” crowd and end up getting the game banned in Australia or something.
Bravo Mr Marketing!
Also: ick.
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Clearly none of you have slapped a woman on the ass to reassure her. I suggest you all do. It’s quite liberating.
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The whole “Duke is a parody!” stuff is kind of contrived.
When DNF started production, it was justifiably a caricature but now that its source material is massively out of date it’s somehow become a parody.
The game is only tongue-in-cheek if you want it to be.
To clueless non-gamers, this could be as representative a game as exists; to knuckle-dragging meatheads, titties and guns could be the bestest partners since cheap alcohol and bar fights.
But slip on a beret and claim that the game is tongue-in-cheek and suddenly slapping digital strippers on the arse and trotting out the old dick-moves from ’90s boss-fights becomes clever parody.
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This stuff is like skin disease. Paying attention to it will only make it get redder and itchier. Can’t we all just agree to not give a shit? It feels kind of wrong that this even made RPS, frankly.
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Awful lot of white-knighting going on for non-existent women
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We don’t get out much.
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Urgh, white knighting is not a great term. Its reserved for specific cases for a reason, otherwise every time a man calls something sexist they are apparently white knighting.
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@misterk
I agree entirely, and I feel this is one of those cases. No-one here has played the game or pressed the slap button, yet people are comparing it to domestic violence without a trace of irony.
Defending sexism is important, but this is just ‘inventing sexism so I can defend it and if you don’t agree you are sexist’
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I don’t think too many people are getting upset about it here to be honest, the most expressive and animated language seems to be coming from those defending it, i don’t think it’s related to domestic violence, it’s sexism of course, which has been in Duke games since 3D, the older Duke platformers were just too basic to implement anything like that, but the folk who played those games have grown up. I think a lot of RPS people are just too old to find this sort of stuff funny anymore. I mean when i was a young teenager Duke seemed hilarious, but Forever just feels like it’s trying too hard, it’s a really clumsy and scatter shot effort at being offensive, if anything it makes me yawn at this point.
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@Captain Hijinx
I don’t think too many people are worked up, I think the people that are worked up are shouting their way to majority by repeating themselves.
I’m beginning to hate posts about the ‘maturity’ of a game and the medium. For clarification: Pointing out that something is immature DOES NOT make you mature. Being mature would be ignoring it and moving on with your life.
EDIT: That last part wasn’t directed at you, just me venting :)
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Fair and well made point rigger.
However i couldn’t leave this topic alone, as i grew up with Duke and i can remember back in the late 90′s getting excited for this game, and now.. Over a decade later it’s here and i find that i’m completely uninterested, and that gulf that has grown in all of those years is interesting to me, has Duke changed? Is my memory coloured by a nearly forgotten fondness? or am i just getting older and harder to please?
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I think I’m in the same camp. The whole game seems very ‘meh’ on all fronts to me, and I loved DN3D. JohnnyMaverik said it best I think, that Duke is no longer any kind of parody because these heroes don’t exist anymore. When Duke 3D appeared it seemed to be mocking all of the awful (but awesome) ’80′s action movies – remember when every action movie would have a topless scene, regardless of plot?
Nowadays, we don’t see movies like that, and the ones that come closest (Expendables) seem to be parodies in themselves, making this kind of game have to stand on it’s own. And it is too weak for that methinks.
Still, time will tell. But I think Bulletstorm has stolen the Duke’s thunder and his crown
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I’m a bit disappointed with everyone taking this SUPER SERIOUSLY. I think this is more a joke than a sexism simulation and I don’t think the developers had debasing women in mind when they thought of this.
Also, like another commenter said, why is it so offensive when there’s stupid politically incorrect stuff in games but not when it’s on tv and in movies? I thought you guys were all about treating games as it’s own media instead of a toy?
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..Sorry, but where did you get the idea that no-one here considers misogyny in other media questionable? It’s unbelievable that this should have to be clarified to you, but okay:
This is a games website. Here we discuss games. This is a topic about something controversial in a game. Now, are people hypocrites because they haven’t begun criticising the same thing in other media? No, they haven’t done so because that would be off-topic.
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Duke Nukem: Molestation Simulator
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I would love to see crude pigmen and hot babes sex scenes if you fail to rescue them. Shame they won’t be implemented.
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So poop, virtual killing is a glorification of fictional violence, but virtual slaps on virtual asses is a glorification of a real world problem.
I understand that the more outrageous your actions are in game the more easy it is to disassociate it from real life, the idea that people would be running around with guns killing each other for points is so ludicrous that is easy to completely abstract from reality.
On the other hand slapping a women feels very close to a reality that is present on our society, something that could be happening on the house next door so that’s why I think people are felling so uncomfortable.
But that doesn’t mean that developers are glorifying the real situation, and the context of action in this case is of clear parody and slapstick humor.
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Don’t forget to wash your hands when you’re done playing with poop.
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I’m not surprised that people are offended, but I am surprised that this is what offended them.
Have you ever played a Duke Nukem game? Or followed the press for Duke Nukem Forever at all? This kind of humor, whether you find it offensive or not, is exactly what the game trades on. It shouldn’t be surprising anyone at this point…
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Sometimes the heat on the water gets turned up so slowly, that when the frog finally jumps out of the boiling pot, he looks back and says, “I should have jumped out of that pot a LONG time ago!”
Or as Marge Simpson put it, “You know, Fox turned into a hardcore sex channel so gradually, I didn’t even notice. Yeesh!”
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There is a fine line between humorous parody of sexism blatant crassness. This new Duke looks to have taken the shotgun approach, fire as much toilet humour scatter shot as possible and see what hits. Having watched shooters come so far in the dozen or so years since Dukey Forever was announced, it feels like he’s a relic of some other time that just doesn’t belong, like that new Rambo movie.
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The gaming industry believes we are all adolescent perverts – I recall an interview awhile back with Steve Gibson, one of the guys who used to run shacknews and who now works for Gearbox, where he was bragging that Duke will include a blow-job scene, as if somehow that will improve the game.
I know Duke is supposed to be a misogynistic action-hero parody, but at what point does the satire become an endorsement? Not saying there shouldn’t be a market for any type of game in a free country, but this one in particular just seems to get dumber and dumber with every tidbit we hear.
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As I said above I’m really not convinced it is Satire any more. I think Satire got chucked to the bottom of the “concepts we can’t be arsed with” box quite some time ago and is only being dragged out now because they’ve suddenly realised why a blow job scene and scantily dressed school girls could have in any way be considered as a good, funny idea in the first place. They haven’t been making a game about Duke the dark satirical commentary on popular cultures male hero’s. They’ve been making a game about Duke the hero, and so we come full circle.
Plus what’s the point of parodying macho-action hero stereotypes these days any way? Our hero’s are now emotional beings for the most part. In fact I’d go as far to say that the only area of popular culture where the macho action hero stereotype is still prevalent is in video games, and this certainly doesn’t seem to be taking the piss out of COD and/or Gears.
The people complaining could of course be extremely wrong, me included, but that’s hard to say before the game is out. I really wish Gearbox would keep it zipped until then to be honest, as another big problem could be these little snippets of info and gameplay footage being out of context. Perhaps in context a digital dildo bouncing across a table is hilarious, maybe the scantily dressed school girl scene will make us weep with laughter, maybe all the set up’s are great, and we’re only seeing the punch lines and therefore aren’t getting it. Before the game is out it’s hard to tell.
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Hey, a guy who never got all the way through the original Duke Nukem here. I like the idea of a big-ass over-the-top satire on the american action hero, but I feel like the way to do it would be to actually give the women full personalities, and then make him kind of an idiot.
The real question to ask here is: Are you meant to be laughing with him, or at him? If it’s the former, it’s not really being satirical. It really seems like you’re meant to be revelling in this with Duke, so I’d say DN isn’t really poking holes in our unbalanced perceptions of heroism at all. It’s celebrating them.
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Whether or not this feature is objectionable is going to depend heavily on the final implementation. It’s going to depend on the dialogue they are going to write for it, and on the animations they are going to use.
This is a world where Duke Nukem lives in a golden palace in Vegas and is worshiped as the the savior of humanity (I think). Maybe in this universe, it’s all girls’ dream to get rescued by Duke. Who knows? Maybe the slap is just meant to make men laugh at those silly women. Again, who knows?
I’m haven’t been able to make up my mind yet, because OXM’s description really doesn’t say anything about the tone or intention yet. Reasonable?
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Poe’s law: any sufficiently extremist view is indistinguishable from satire.
That said…
… I don’t have time to touch this one right now.
Good discussion, though! Carry on!
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Hm. The whole game screams “sexist”. The concept of “babe” is sexist. “Saving babes from alien insemination” sounds even worse, because it implies that women are incredibly precious only as earthling baby-making machines. The screen shot even shows a naked “babe”. etc, etc, etc,
I do wonder why in the context of this everyone gets so exited about the slapping part.
I seems the least “offensive”, since if IRL you were acting under pressure in a situation such as saving a drowning victim or kidnapping somebody (for their own good that is), they would be likely to panic and attack you in return. To actually help them you would need to somehow restrain them, which sometimes would involve slapping them unconscious and not just delivering a slap on the ass.
But really: games are a bit like dreams- people put into them whatever they can come up with in their imagination, and a lot of art work gets created in order to get something twisted out of the mind of the artist. People who get upset about the contents of games, should first start by examining their dreams. I do wonder sometimes what is the point of making a particularly violent or gross film or game, but just because I don’t like it, it does not mean it should be made in a different way. Somebody might find it cathartic or what not.
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some game themes respond to some innate feelings which most people have.
let’s face it: murder is one of them.
although I find killing another human being abhorrent and I am against war and the death penalty, I completely enjoy shooting and murdering other people in video games. I get a real kick out of killing people in Hitman for example.
It responds to the BEAST INSIDE if you will.
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Duke Nukem Forever!!! Capture the babe!!!!
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I’ve overdosed on popcorn reading this comment thread.
Who cares about enjoying videogames, when you can argue on the internet.
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I don’t see Gearbox caring for either side of this discussion. For all intents and purposes, Duke is a womanizing, ass-slapping bastard. He and his franchise likely has no future, and I think Gearbox, at this point, has pretty much ensured he’ll be leaving with a bang… or gangbang… heh…
Anyone who thinks to stay away from this game for such reasons as above, is probably well justified in their reasoning, but I do not agree with the notion that Duke, or any other game for that matter, should be subject to politically correct filtering. That, I feel, ought to be the developers’ initiative. There’s been enough information disseminated about this game that makes it quite clear what it’s all about.
I also do not agree with thinking the “reassuring ass-slap” unreasonable. What happened to context? It is unreasonable to you and me, but you’re not playing yourself, you are playing Duke.
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“There’s been enough information disseminated about this game that makes it quite clear what it’s all about.”
In which case there’s presumably enough information for people to disagree with it and make their feelings clear. They only become hypocritical eejits if they actually buy the game (fully aware of the tyoe of content in it) because they want to enjoy some other aspect of it and then become outraged by something somewhat sexist that was always there from the first place. See this Doug Stanhope article on offensive stand comedy, which while occasionally becoming a bit of a moan at the audience and wandering off into some iffy territory does get the above point across quite well – http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/guest-commentary/doug-stanhope-on-offensive-comedy-1.1083012)
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I certainly don’t hope any of the offended complainers have ever watched and enjoyed an episode of Married With Children…
Seriously, the difference between misogyny and making fun of misogyny completely seems to be escaping some people.
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Married with Children was extremely hilarious.
But at times, it just seemed to be encouraging you to cheer sociopathy. And I mean “cheer” in a very literal sense–the studio audience would be cheering and applauding rather than laughing. Sometimes for 15 second intervals!
Somehow, ironic sexism morphed into triumphant sexism. And with Duke Nukem, I don’t think they ever even bothered with the ironic part.
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You don’t think the people cheering the sexism were perfectly aware what they were doing? Just like the Top Gear presenters, when portraying ignorant buffoons, take the piss out of themselves rather than, say, Mexicans?
As far as I’m concerned, this kind of humour has everything to do with self-irony and nothing to do with sincerity.
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The people laughing may have been self-aware. Extended cheers and applause, though, tend to be sincere–at the very least, sincerely cheering the audacity of someone in transgressing the norm, which may not actually signal opposition to the norm. Perhaps not actual sociopathy or sexism itself so much as political incorrectness as a goal in and of itself–which is not the same as irony.
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Seems like gearbox are doing exactly what worked so well for bulletstorm, leave some controversy lying around and it will spark huge debates.
The people who hadn’t heard of this and find it funny will be more likely to buy the game, and the people who are offended by it wouldn’t have bought the game anyway…
win-win right.
in any case I expect we’ll see more of this in the future? that and with the EA dude saying games should court controversy for the free publicity…
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serious sam is still the better game.
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If it makes everyone feel better, it works a lot less offensive than it sounds. Picture the butt-patting that happens in American Football, rather than a full on backhand.
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I can’t wait for the Mad Men computer game to come out
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This is dickwolves all over again.
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Oh for pete’s sake this comment section is embarassing.
It’s Duke Nukem, a game designed to be a parody of brutish machismo, what did you expect? giving her a gentle neck massage instead?
Stop being up in arms at every little thing. It’s only as offensive as you make it.
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sounds like a very reasonable mode in the duke universe… don’t see the problem here at all.
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I think they should add an item shop so you can buy a nice pink dress for Duke.
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To put my own view on this into some perspective…
I can’t kill wolves or certain other predators in a game. I can’t do it. It’s not that I won’t do it, but some part of my brain absolutely refuses on a level where I’ll either find a way around this event, or I’ll just stop playing the game. There are going to be things that cross the line for everyone in a game. For some it might be certain kinds of violence, and for others it might be sexual objectification.
You’ll likely only hear people like me lamenting this in cases where it’s terribly overdone and there’s no way to subvert it so that it can be worked around without having to do that content. (You’re forcing someone who doesn’t want to into violence against dumb animals. Good job, developers!) I generally feel the same way about fantastic beasties, and I’ll be most vocally disappointed when the option isn’t presented to the player to simply not commit this act. If games are growing up, then you’d expect the option to be there.
But when the option is there and others opt to do it anyway, I’ll just turn the other way, because it’s just part of a game, and despite me not liking this, most of the people involved are not absolute monsters. And committing violence in a game might actually be helping them stay away from it in reality, anyway, so have at it. I can understand how some people have a disconnect in a game from RL violence because I have no problem clubbing a human over the head in a game, but I won’t do that in reality because ending a life is just not cool. It never is. We know the difference between videogame violence and violence in reality.
One other thing that bothers me though is when people try to justify this. In the scope of the game, it’s a monstrous act, it’s their character committing something of an abomination and being a douche in the process. There have been many dissertations written on how RPG heroes are usually the most massive and twisted monsters known to the history of their respective world, so I won’t go there. The thing is is that I’m aware that slaughtering a crowd of people in Prototype isn’t really okay, it’s not a particularly great bit of imagery, and it is something that will upset some people. I can make the disconnect between videogame violence and violence in reality, but not everyone might be able to. In fact, if someone staying at my home is upset by videogame violence, I just tend to not play violent games.
We’ve become desensitised to it, we know the difference, but it’s still not okay. We shouldn’t pretend that it’s ever okay, really. And that’s what bugs me. Yes, objectification is there, and it will entertain some people. It is also virtual objectification with no real women involved. I get that. But let’s never actually try to justify it as okay. Because to be honest, trying to justify it is one step closer to being able to justify RL violence and blurring the lines between the two. The imagery can be pretty horrifying, after all. As humans, we can do some fairly horrifying things in the name of entertainment, in the name of gratification, in the name of pleasure, but providing that these things aren’t real, doing so to sate desires can be ethical. But let’s never go so far as trying to justify them as the right thing to do.
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Could you please just summarize what you’re trying to say a bit better. Are you referring to the act of comical butt-slapping as monstrous and an abomination? Isn’ that a bit strong? Why are you making so many references to RPGs? This is a FPS, not an RPG, choices are a bit limited. Do you understand the context that is Duke Nukem?
In conclusion, LOLWUT. Crude, but very fitting.
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[Minsc]Butt-slapping for goodness![/Minsc]
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This is the most derp filled comment thread in RPS history.
Bravo chaps.
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The banality of the comments seen so far indicates this man/woman has spoken true.
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Being a female gamer, I figure I’ll put in my two cents… >_>
At first I thought it sounded offensive, but then I saw it was a slap on the ass and not the face. It’s just immature and silly, which is kinda what Duke Nukem is all about. I don’t think guys are so idiotic that they’re going to play this and decide this is acceptable in real life. Give yourselves some credit here.
Is it tasteless? Maybe, but when you buy a Duke Nukem game you’re looking for something at least a little bit tasteless. Wouldn’t it be kind of a let down if everything was tame?
Basically…you can’t have a non-sexist Duke Nukem. It’s just not possible. If that’s a problem, you’re looking for a different game… >_>
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My lovely wife wanted to post a similar thought on this matter, but decided not to as it was apparent no-one would listen to her. You have a very good point, sensibly stated – but we’re defending women’s rights! Womens opinions mean nothing here!
Still, thanks for trying
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@Noni, 7rigger
Being a woman doesn’t automatically give you the final say in this.
I’m far from outraged, but when I first read the description, it felt very wrong and uncomftable – as I tried to analyse in my first post, the reason for that (to me)is it’s uncomftable parallells with sexual/domestic violence, not to do with any implied sexism (Duke is clearly a sexist character, in a game that well, panders to his sexism. That isn’t news)
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How about having any say at all?
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CMaster, I was just trying to contribute an alternate perspective. >_> In no way did I imply the being female gives me some kind of authority on the matter.
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Dear reader, if you have read this far you have a impressive amount of patience and tolerance. Have you posted yet? Before you do, beware! There seems to be lots of trolls about.
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Pah! This isn’t good enough. In Spelunky I could sacrifice the damsel in distress. Or throw her in front of an arrow trap. All I can do is give her a slap in the arse! Why can’t I sacrifice her to appease the gods damnit!
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I believe you can also unlock a mode why you play as the damsel.
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I know, I was just pissing around being facetious. All the serious ground has been covered so I might as well be silly!
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I read this article, I read the one on Ars Technica [linked for relevant video], I read the other comments, I really wanted to care enough to write something meaningful here, but this is just too absurdly pathetic for me to get properly worked up about. Boys will be boys, as they say, and sadly that means that to some men women will never be more than disobedient trophies to carry home on their backs, so if there’s a Farm Simulator for the eternal gatherer, it figures we get Duke for the eternal hunter, the self-sustained, self-proclaimed alpha male fallacy.
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Meh. Try harder Gearbox.
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The thing that I find so disturbing isn’t what the new Duke game is offensive and disgusting. That isn’t a surprise. It’s the fanatic manner in which so many guys who seem to genuinely fear and hate women take pleasure out of it all. The number of comments I’ve read over the internet where these people rejoice in this news as though they’ve won some massive victory against all the injustices of the world is puzzling, and ultimately very disturbing.
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I can’t believe how many people need to get laid on this site.
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And I can’t believe it’s not butter. What’s your point?
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I’ve been trying to mentally articulate an appropriate reply to this during the whole day. Then I remembered of what Steve Coogan wrote last month (about a racist joke in Top Gear). Surely a different context and situation, but many things still apply to what has been said in this comments thread.
“What makes it worse is that the Lads wear this offensive behaviour as a badge of pride, pleased that they have annoyed those whom they regard, in another lazy stereotype, as sandal-wearing vegans with beards and no sense of humour.
(…)
If I say anything remotely racist or sexist as Alan Partridge, for example, the joke is abundantly clear. We are laughing at a lack of judgment and ignorance. With Top Gear it is three rich, middle-aged men laughing at poor Mexicans. Brave, groundbreaking stuff, eh?
There is a strong ethical dimension to the best comedy. Not only does it avoid reinforcing prejudices, it actively challenges them. Put simply, in comedy, as in life, we ought to think before we speak. This wasn’t one of those occasions. In fact, the comments were about as funny as a cold sweat followed by shooting pains down the left arm. In fact, if I can borrow from the Wildean wit of Richard Hammond, the comic approach was “lazy”, “feckless” and “flatulent”.
(…)
It’s not entirely their fault, of course. Part of the blame must lie with what some like to call the “postmodern” reaction to overzealous political correctness. Sometimes, it’s true, things need a shakeup; orthodoxies need to be challenged. But this sort of ironic approach has been a licence for any halfwit to vent the prejudices they’d been keeping in the closet since Love Thy Neighbour was taken off the air.
(…)
The Lads have this strange notion that if they are being offensive it bestows on them a kind of anti-establishment aura of coolness; in fact, like their leather jackets and jeans, it is uber-conservative (which isn’t cool).”
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Someone has done/said something bad to a womans and now I am angry. How will this medium ever evolve if we keep doing this etc etc etc
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I’m sorry, but have you all gone completely mad?
This is a game. A work of fiction. It is based on humour. It’s a game revolving around a character that is entirely based on vileness and flashes of surreal and black comedy springing from being wholly a parody of the stereotypical Hollywood action hero, where male chauvinism (amongst other offensive things) is an integral part.
Are you following this?
It is a parody. It is supposed to be funny precisely because it is vile and wrong. The content (as opposed the form) of the parody is not a statement (unless you take it’s implicit subversive element seriously). It’s not something to be considered pertinent to the debate about sexism or feminism — and most importantly: seen in context, it’s not offensive. You’re supposed to find it humourous because it is an unrealistic portrayal. It is a pretend slap in the face to the politicised reality of the sexes. It is a joke, ladies and gentlemen. I repeat, a joke!
You might not like the joke, but you will recognise what it is, and stop with these politically correct “oh, I’m so offended” posts, because Gearbox knows it’s offensive, because that’s the whole flipping point!
It boggles the mind that I have to explain this, and really, I am quite frankly flabbergasted that so many of you are novices at modern media consumption to the point that you can’t recognise an attempt at humour when you see it. I couldn’t care less that you didn’t find it funny; but not recognising the fact that this is comedy, that, is inexcusable. The joke doesn’t magically become offensive if you don’t like it. To do so, it would have to be something other than a joke.
Ask yourself this: Would you have ragged on this specific comedic structure if it wasn’t controversial? If your answer is “no”, what are you left with as the basis of your rant? You are being vocal because, and only because, the structure has controversial content. You are picking things apart and judging things on premises not agreed upon.
In other words: You are missing the point. You are missing the context. You are missing the attempt at subversiveness. You are making a fool of yourself.
Comedy is never offensive. The worst case scenario is that it’s not funny. Taking the content of a parody seriously because you didn’t find the parody funny makes no sense whatsoever. The content is the joke. A joke is not meant to be taken seriously. No matter if it’s funny or not. If do take it seriously, the joke is on you, because quite frankly, then you’re a daft punter.
I guess that’s my final point. You’re daft punters. I’m not wasting more time on this.
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Duke Nukem is comedy. The joke is “ha ha, look at how sexist we can get away with being in our huge big budget game! Look how offended everyone is! We’re so politically incorrect!” It’s comedy in the same way that it’s comedy when all the kids laugh at the fat girl or the wussy kid. It’s a joke in the same way that a racist joke is a joke. “It’s a joke” isn’t a magic phrase that means human decency no longer matters.
Just to show a bit of graciousness to you, maybe when you said “comedy”, what you meant was “irony”. Otherwise, “Comedy is never offensive” would be an amazingly idiotic thing to write, especially in a rant that goes to such lengths to talk about how other people are making fools of themselves.
But I don’t see any indication that DNF is intended to be ironic. It’s intended to be politically incorrect, but that’s not the same thing.
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Can’t you take a joke? They’re just havin’ a laaaaaarf. It’s just a joke, like on top gear. Etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0i0RXMvzMs&feature=youtu.be
This argument has been raised since the beginning of time, and it hasn’t gotten much more convincing.
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They have been trying to appear sexist from the start of their marketing so this is not really a surprise.
Its just another gimmick by an ageing ip to get people to notice them.
This look at me marketing is a bit pathetic and stinks of desperation
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This all depends on how you look at it I suppose. You could look at it as being typical Duke Nukem behaviour, being fresh with the chicks. Or you look at it as being different to Duke Nukem 3D where being rough to women punished you by spawning in more enemies where here being rough to women rewards you by making them easier to handle. Which in that case it’s the opposite of typical Duke Nukem behaviour.
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One wonders how many purchases this article will have engendered come the game’s launch.
Is that ironic?
I’m no fan of sexism but surely this is a parody. And even if it’s not a parody it’s so blatantly and dare I say proudly crass and OTT that it’s hard to be genuinely offended by it. It’s more of an instant eye-roll reaction and a desire to move onto something worth getting worked up over.
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Wow, what a tempest in a tea pot here. Surely a game as Duke Nukem Forever doesn’t deserve this much fuzz. Those who find the slapping feature funny, go buy the game, those who don’t, avoid it. It’s easy as that! And if it’s distasteful, and a shitty game, sales will (hopefully, you sadly never know) be low. I’m suprised that DNF still has an audience that is willing to buy the game after their interpretation of the Forever part of the title.
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Man I don’t get why people think getting annoyed with sexual assault instead of violence/genocide is a double standard. You know why that is? Because if you go to a bar on a weekend, you’re really unlikely to find people shooting other people in the face and high fiving their bros like that’s okay. Whereas, you’re incredibly likely to find men smacking women’s asses without their consent.
Encouraging behavior that is rarely prosecuted is worse than encouraging behavior most people wouldn’t consider in their wildest misanthropic fantasies.
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Good to see the No True Scotsman fallacy in play with the brand new unquantifiable, unnattainable definition of satire introduced here. It really helps when I want to justify tastless pieces of art that don’t offend me while villifying tasteless pieces of art which disagree with my personal ethics.
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Okay, then. You go right on ahead trying to find the deeper ironic social criticism within Duke Nukem Forever.
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You do realise you’ve just demonstrated exactly what I just said, don’t you?
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I don’t get it. So this would be okay if there was no butt slapping? We’re already muscle-bound men and pig aliens forcibly moving women around a playing field for some unknown purpose, but the moment there is any kind of violence involved(!) it’s suddenly not okay anymore?
Hypocrites. Accept it all or accept none of it. People are turning their noses up at butt slapping but laugh at the blowjob scene like it’s just typical duke nukem.
I slap my girl on the botty all the time and I love her to death. Is it crude? Yes. Is it misogynistic? Only if you’re a DICK.
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Duke nukem gives the middle finger to all of the sputtering, drooling would-be moral watchdogs of America and beyond, and all I have to say is…
Delicious. Fuck them and their outrage.
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This game mode sounds similar to Super Cock Blockers… to the ass slapping detail!
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I know I’m slow, but seriously.. this is not news. Super Cock Blockers has been doing the capture the women including ass slap for quite some time. http://www.supercockblockers.com/
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