By Jim Rossignol on July 26th, 2011 at 10:59 am.
Excitable Wedbush Securities analyst Michael Pachter – who is allowed to comment on the games industry for some reason – has been talking about crunch time at development studios. Here’s what he said (via Industry Gamers): “The cool thing about this industry is, if you’re good, you’ll make a ton of money. I just don’t have a whole lot of sympathy for people who say ‘I worked for such-and-such, and I didn’t get paid, and that’s not fair’. If you want to be an hourly employee, go build automobiles, and what will happen is they’ll close down your autoplant some day and you’ll be out of work.”
Uh-huh.
Unwisely, Pachter continued: “I think there’s a legitimate complaint if crunch time is never-ending. Crunch should be the last three to six months of game development.” So IF you are trapped in some kind of Greek allegory where you are forced to crunch game dev for all eternity, then you are allowed to complain. But to who? Hades himself, probably. But he won’t care, he’s from my Dad’s generation, and therefore too old to understand videogames.
It’s best to imagine that if you work in game development, then you’ve won a fantastic prize. If you don’t get paid for overtime that’s fine, because you’re in Disneyland!
Pachter also attacked the idea of unions within game development, saying that people who earn a lot of money don’t need any protection, apparently because money provides them with a cloak of impenetrable entitlement: “I think unions are in business to protect workers from, I think, dangerous working conditions and unfair labor practices. Sweatshops should have unions but games studios, which tend to pay people a lot of money, shouldn’t. I just don’t think people who make over $100,000 a year need a whole lot of protection cause they might have to work overtime.”
There aren’t any people who make less than $100k a year in the games industry, incidentally. They are all so rich. It’s great.
Pachter’s opinions drew plenty of discussion from developers, including Size Five Games’ Dan Marshall, who commented: “Actually I think he’s right. If you lot in The Games Industry just pulled your fingers out and worked a bit harder ALL games could be 9/10. Look at LA Noire! If you lot in The Games Industry just stopped whinging so much and worked more hours, ALL games could be like LA Noire.”
Which is a fair point to make, I think. Anyway, I’m off to play Sweatshop, why don’t you join me?
26/07/2011 at 11:05 Teddy Leach says:
Well, LA Noire could have been a whole lot better… Not that it wasn’t good, of course.
26/07/2011 at 11:42 Jonas says:
Did you just explain the joke…?
26/07/2011 at 12:11 McDan says:
Don’t listen to him, he ruins everything. I was thinking that if they know crunch time is a part of making a game, and it occurs for nearly every game made, then why don’t they have special pay or whatever for it? Seeing as they know it’s coming. Doesn’t make sense not to, except to save money, the bastards.
26/07/2011 at 12:11 thebigJ_A says:
No, he just didn’t get the joke. :(
26/07/2011 at 12:17 McDan says:
…What I said was also a joke, I know the guy.
26/07/2011 at 20:42 DrGonzo says:
I’m puzzled, I think this is maybe the cringiest first comment on RPS ever. Completely misunderstood the joke or am I not getting another joke of some kind?
Oh and no, it wasn’t any good. It looked great, it was possibly even a good interactive film, but a game it was not. Also, an LA Confidential rip off it certainly was.
26/07/2011 at 11:09 torchedEARTH says:
I’m not off to play anything – I’m at work.
To answer your question: I’m waiting for more Deus Ex videos.
26/07/2011 at 11:09 Jim Rossignol says:
Me too!
26/07/2011 at 11:28 JackShandy says:
In that case you all absolutely have to watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js02m-7qHyE&feature=player_embedded
26/07/2011 at 11:34 Teddy Leach says:
That was amazing.
26/07/2011 at 12:00 Vague-rant says:
Amazing, or awful. I get confused between the two.
26/07/2011 at 12:05 westyfield says:
I spill my drink!
26/07/2011 at 12:40 MadTinkerer says:
Having already preordered Deus Ex, I’m putting a personal embargo on all related news. I’ll read the Wot I think after I beat it. :)
26/07/2011 at 17:32 Davee says:
You just made my day, Jack :D
26/07/2011 at 11:10 Freud says:
Sweatshop Tyccoon
26/07/2011 at 11:59 Monchberter says:
If that’s your model Gabe Newell will shout “YOU’RE DOING IT WRONG!”
And then not hire you.
http://www.develop-online.net/features/1192/Gabe-Newell-on-Valve
26/07/2011 at 19:32 dethgar says:
That’s silly, just cause Gabe is doing it right doesn’t mean the rest of the industry does it wrong…
…but they do.
26/07/2011 at 20:04 Berzee says:
Woot! Tremendously fun reading, thanks.
(His ideas about charging people extra money if they’re annoying, though, is idiotic. Server admins do not need extra “help” from publishers).
26/07/2011 at 11:10 Jockie says:
Michael Pachters job is to spout spurious bullshit at literally anyone who will print him, he’s essentially a troll in a suit, don’t bite!
26/07/2011 at 11:19 Erd says:
He sounds like a consultant, of the well paid, uninformed opinion kind.
26/07/2011 at 11:25 Jockie says:
Thing is, I don’t think he’s so much uninformed as he is deliberately provocative. I wrote for a website once and he granted us an interview, I took some insane quote he gave us about Uncharted 2 ‘underperforming’, turned it into a news story and posted to n4g and it gave us about 20,000 hits in one day, which is about the same as we would normally get across several months.
The man knows how to push buttons and it means websites are often eager to interview him and watch the hits roll in, which raises his profile etc.
26/07/2011 at 11:36 konrad_ha says:
Exactly this. Pachter knows how to draw an audience by extreme trolling. Also: he has no soul.
26/07/2011 at 12:23 rocketman71 says:
It must be that. Otherwise, I can’t understand how websites staffed by supposedly intelligent individuals (i.e. Gamasutra) can publish every single rambling this idiot has to say.
26/07/2011 at 19:58 sinister agent says:
There’s no need to repeat yourself.
26/07/2011 at 21:23 Dreamhacker says:
But… many of my friends are consultants!
26/07/2011 at 23:23 Nalano says:
You should make new friends.
27/07/2011 at 07:00 anonymousity says:
What’s really ridiculous is that we realise he’s a troll and we can see that he’s trolling yet we all still respond to it, because there’s a little voice inside us all going ooh a chance to be justifiably righteous in verbally smiting this oaf, when he doesn’t even give a shit because we’re still giving him page hits. If only we could ignore him.
26/07/2011 at 11:12 markside says:
He knows nothing of The Crunch.
26/07/2011 at 11:28 President Weasel says:
Oh, a little day trip round the Crunch, we can all go as tourists.
26/07/2011 at 11:36 TheApologist says:
Crunch time! *applies demonic knitting needle to Pachter’s head*
26/07/2011 at 13:20 Malibu Stacey says:
How dare you even speak of the crunch!
26/07/2011 at 14:33 Xercies says:
No he can’t, only I have the recipe
26/07/2011 at 16:58 Wodge says:
Art
26/07/2011 at 18:10 jeffthewonderbadger says:
Oh here we fuuucking go! The crunch this, the crunch that; why are you so obsessed with the crunch?
26/07/2011 at 19:34 dethgar says:
Cap’n Crunch
26/07/2011 at 11:14 Arglebargle says:
What a peckerwood! Doesn’t know his ass from a hole in the ground, apparantly. I do know a lot of workers (and ex workers) in the industry, and I can count on the fingers of one hand….with change… how many are living gloriously off their game company largesse. The strong majority of ‘em are strugging just the same as most folks these days.
I doubt he’d spew the same BS about the Movie trade…..
26/07/2011 at 13:08 Twitchity says:
The key differences being that the film industry is heavily unionized, incomes are quite reasonable, and crunch time is basically unheard of.
Perhaps we should chain him to a desk for the better part of a death march project and see when he starts hallucinating from lack of sleep. Hour ten for a git like him, I’m willing to bet.
26/07/2011 at 11:14 stahlwerk says:
A man with a vision. A man after my own heart.
He’s not afraid to go on record.
He gets the results.
He’s Michaeeeeeel
PACHTER!
26/07/2011 at 11:15 MD says:
Man, unless Size Five is some sort of subtle dirty joke, I really wish they’d stuck with Zombie Cow.
Anyway, regarding the article, I haven’t read Pachter’s comments but unless you’re misrepresenting him somehow (which seems unlikely given the lengthy quotes and the fact that you’re not a dodgy hack), well said Jim.
I especially liked this bit:
26/07/2011 at 11:19 AbyssUK says:
100k USD a year, this man is in some sort of crazy double rainbow world…
26/07/2011 at 11:46 Jonas says:
According to the last GameCareerGuide statistics roundup I read, $100,000 a year is what technical directors tend to get, and that’s absolutely the highest salary for a proper development job (meaning not marketing, business management, etc.) So yeah I don’t know what he’s thinking. The average salary for a game designer was $65,000 a year.
27/07/2011 at 02:52 noclip says:
I find it interesting that $100k is where he chose to draw the line. Some people working for $40k a year don’t get paid overtime, would he take issue with that? Does *he* get paid overtime (or as he calls it, his annual bonus) at his $150k/year job?
26/07/2011 at 11:19 Crimsoneer says:
Partly, he has a point – gaming is an incredibly competitive sector, and is likely to get more and more competitive as gaming becomes more popular. Like investment banking, it’s what every man and his dog wants to go into. The larger the amount of prospective employees becomes, and the higher demand for them becomes, the more you’re going to have to work very hard to stand out.
I’m not saying I agree with everything – we need solid legislation to deal with this sort of thing – but I suspect in the future you’re more likely to compare gaming studios hiring model to consultancy and financial firms than software firms: hiring only the very best and paying them quite a lot on the condition that they accept they’re going to dedicate their life to their work. What we’re going through now is just the labour market adjusting.
26/07/2011 at 11:26 Vayl says:
There are many competitive sectors that are not based on slave work. This only shows a complete lack of management skills. Most civilized world have laws against this sort of things btw, that’s why the gaming industry is mainly focused on places they can exploit their workers to their hearts content.
26/07/2011 at 11:40 Kdansky says:
Sadly, there is a huge difference:
People go into gaming for their passion, but into investment banking purely for the money.
Games are a real product. Investment banking is based on the simple principle of juggling money long enough until either your customers lose theirs or the gouvernment bails you out, and you pocket the difference.
26/07/2011 at 11:42 Grygus says:
He may have a point, but that’s not it; if there is a glut of talent on the market then salaries drop and they’re not all making six figures anymore (not that they are now, I’m just saying that it isn’t consistent with his logic). In addition, with all that cheap labor there would be no reason for crunch time to even exist; hiring more people working sane hours would mean fewer errors, better games, and happier employees. So that can’t be what he’s getting at; he has to believe that the talent is still rare, or he isn’t making any sense at all.
26/07/2011 at 12:11 Crimsoneer says:
Don’t worry, I think you’re both right – apart from Kdanski who’s being an idiot – and I do think there should be legislation in place to stop crunch time turning into slave labour, but I think a few facts are pretty unlikely to be contested:
1) More and more very clever people are going to want to go into games development
2) Game devs are going to be able to pick out the top talent, and it’s going to be an incredibly competitive labour pool
In ten or so years, I do see the gaming industry being a very intense lifestyle that pays excessively well, with flexible laws. What happened during L.A Noire development was definitely pushing it, but I think it’s likely the gaming industry as a whole is going to have to adapt to some serious crunch and long working hours.
26/07/2011 at 12:38 JackShandy says:
“Adapt”? You’re talking like game studios don’t have long hours or serious crunch now.
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011/05/the-death-march-the-problem-of-crunch-time-in-game-development.ars
26/07/2011 at 13:16 Deano2099 says:
And when that happens, more and more talented people will leave that sector as they realise the very skills they have acquired can be used for software development work that pays twice as much and has sensible hours.
26/07/2011 at 20:39 DrGonzo says:
How was Kdansky being stupid? He was spot on.
26/07/2011 at 23:24 Nalano says:
Because it’s like saying, “if you like helping children, we shouldn’t have to pay you to teach them.”
It’s complete and utter bullshit.
27/07/2011 at 00:50 steviesteveo says:
Re: not paying teachers.
Additionally, the only reason you’d even suggest not paying people who enjoy their job is because you hate yours and want everyone else to be miserable too. People who drag others down to their level like that can absolutely GTFO.
26/07/2011 at 11:19 Tei says:
Before a software proyect is started. People plan schedules and work. For some software projects (for governement) is legally mandatory.
If you still get crunch time after this planning… and you planned not crush time, you obviusly suck at your work: planning.
If you planned crunch time, then probably you sould be violating a few laws, and if these laws don’t exist, sould be created (your opinion abou this may varied depending on your political views, and the hour of the day ).
So the problem, the root cause is: the people planning the schedule. Bad direction.
The secondary problem is people that allow that. The workers. But is a tough call, and not everyone can use a door to abandon a building. It can be a too tough decision to take for some people.
We have a system to protect the weak people. So again, laws sould make that imposible, to protect people that don’t have the ironwill needed to say NO to obvious abuse.
26/07/2011 at 14:12 Gnoupi says:
There is a third factor, other than bad planning or workers going with it: money.
If you come with a full planning, realistic one, your publisher “might” frown seeing at the “luxurious amount of time” you are taking. Or in the middle of development, even if planning was correct, they might decide that it’s a better marketing occasion if the game is released one month earlier.
26/07/2011 at 14:21 TsunamiWombat says:
Tei, as ever, speaks wisdom
26/07/2011 at 15:56 ankh says:
Wise words but sometimes its not about “iron will” regarding not tolerating abuse but rather just a logical decision because the consequences outweigh the benefits.
26/07/2011 at 11:20 Carra says:
All this is doing is making sure that every few months a group splits from the crunch factory and starts making indie games for themselves.
26/07/2011 at 13:23 Malibu Stacey says:
I see no downsides to this situation.
26/07/2011 at 16:06 ankh says:
Unless there is some kind of link between people who have talent and people who dont like crunch time. Don’t get me wrong i love indie titles but all in all i want creative talent backed up by lots of money as i think this has the greatest potential to produce good games. (I had to really give it some thought to come up with a possible down side :P)
26/07/2011 at 11:20 Juicetin says:
I’ve been watching Pachter for some time and have always been a little bit worried about his political leanings. It’s possible that the height of his mighty skyscraper view makes poor grunt workers at games devs look rather insignificant. Regardless, someone needs to tell him that unions aren’t evil. Although I think he’s a republican so that might be pointless….
26/07/2011 at 14:14 Berzee says:
Ewww, unions.
26/07/2011 at 14:23 TsunamiWombat says:
Ewww, social movements where like minded individuals get together to protect themselves and their families from the fickle whims of an unpredictable downward trending capitalist market in a completly non violent and legal way.
The hell is that, eh? Nothing like a political party which is a protected and established element of all democractic systems, thats for certain.
26/07/2011 at 15:59 Quine says:
As Studs Terkel put it:
‘How many hours a day do you work?’ I ask. He says, ‘Eight.’ ‘How comes you don’t work 18 hours a day like your great-great-grandfather did? You know why? Because four guys got hanged in Chicago in 1886 fighting for the eight-hour day … For you.’
26/07/2011 at 16:26 Juicetin says:
The more factory-esque games production becomes the more likely the working standards within the industry will mirror that state: longer hours, devaluation of labour, disenfranchisement of workers. Let’s face it, if your priority in developing games is making profit, then that ethos is bound to diffuse into the way employees are treated.
Boo.
26/07/2011 at 16:27 Juicetin says:
.. I think I just out-Marxd myself….
26/07/2011 at 19:11 apollyonbob says:
@Quine:
I do work 18 hour days sometimes.
I don’t normally because my boss doesn’t normally ask me to. Why? Because I would quit if he did Why? Because I’m really damn good at my job and can get another somewhere that doesn’t ask me to work those hours.
But that’s only true because my job is in a free market that’s not obstructed, influenced, controlled, or touched in any way by unions, because I work in a state of At-will employment.
Unions cannot help me in any way. They can only hurt me, and I certainly don’t owe them a damn thing.
26/07/2011 at 19:17 Berzee says:
Yes, Tsunami, eww that. =P Because, did you know? You can ewww things that are legal.
apollyonbob — yes :) thank you for explaining what are essentially my thoughts too…it saves me having to say more than “ew” :D
26/07/2011 at 19:32 steviesteveo says:
I never got the hate that regular people can spit at unions. I can see hating the pants off unions if you employ people who are in a union but if you’re an employee rather than an employer it’s a defensive measure against companies that otherwise hold all the cards and, as legal persons, are functionally incapable of caring whether you live or die as long as it’s profitable.
26/07/2011 at 20:39 PFlute says:
@apollyonbob: I find it quite hard to believe that you “owe nothing to a union”. Here in America, minimum wage, weekends off, eight hour work days are all byproducts of union organization in the past. So if you live here and you’ve ever had a job where you enjoyed any of those things, then unions have, defacto, benefited you. I really don’t think there’s any capable argument against that, and if you think those things would have magically materialized via the good will of the free market if those rotten unions hadn’t come along, then I do question your sanity.
Or do you honestly think that being good at your job offers more protection than any Union could; That maybe if those fools had just tried harder they wouldn’t have had to organize? I don’t want to cause offense, but that seems like the height of naivete to me.
Of course I can’t speak for other countries. I assume similar labor histories for other first world nations, but Sagan knows I could be wrong.
@Quine: Ahhh I love Terkel. I think I actually have that book of his. I’ve been meaning to pick up more.
26/07/2011 at 20:59 Berzee says:
“minimum wage, weekends off, eight hour work days”
I’m salaried (so no minimum wage), and I worked 12 hours Sunday and until 3 in the morning on Monday. :3
27/07/2011 at 00:44 steviesteveo says:
I suspect it’s the same story around the world too. Historically the two ways to get better conditions if you work for a living in Britain have been 1) single issue do gooders in Parliament who happen to like the cause of reasonable working conditions, or 2) industrial action through unionisation.
Of course if you own the diamond mine or the software development company this is not relevant to you. if you work for someone who does then it is.
27/07/2011 at 05:50 Kamos says:
What if all emplyers decide 18 hours of work is a good idea, apollyonbob? I hope you’re “damn good” at some other completely unrelated field.
26/07/2011 at 11:20 westyfield says:
Hell, I only read about games, and even I’m loaded! Let’s all put on our diamond gloves and hold hands.
26/07/2011 at 11:44 Grygus says:
Wallace is polishing mine at the moment; could we switch to ruby mittens?
26/07/2011 at 12:08 JackShandy says:
Obviously I can’t use my hands so soon after the gold-plating, but I’ll send one of my people over.
26/07/2011 at 14:15 Berzee says:
Well *I’m* satisfied with my internet reading for the day. =P
26/07/2011 at 14:24 TsunamiWombat says:
You read? Peasent. I have the boy read these things outloud for me.
26/07/2011 at 11:23 PatrickSwayze says:
I hope GameTrailers get rid of his show after this comment.
It’d be interesting to see how some of podcasters on that website react to this statement…
26/07/2011 at 11:23 Vayl says:
How can someone be so stupid really, this mentality of that overworking people is the only way to do business is retarded.
26/07/2011 at 11:23 Mike says:
Not so much breaking the satire barrier as he is colliding with himself in the past, smashing into a thousand pieces, and providing scientists the first glance at ‘antisatire’.
The man is a securities analyst. On the one hand, we should probably expect little more from him. On the other hand – since when did unions become a luxury?
26/07/2011 at 13:24 V. Profane says:
Since Randian sociopaths like him appointed themselves rulers of the Universe.
26/07/2011 at 11:26 Alexander Norris says:
I think someone actually crunched some numbers up and came out with actual figures, but off the top of my head the same job programming games is paid about 40% less than a job in the software industry.
But hey, $25k a year at 30 is “a lot of money,” right? (I feel like retching now.)
Also, I really hope Dan was making a comment about how crunch is bad, and not actually endorsing crunch. :(
26/07/2011 at 12:06 Man Raised by Puffins says:
I’d hazard that Mr Marshall is of the opinion that LA Noir is a big pile of pants, thus lending his comments a biting sarcasm. I think it’s safe to say that he doesn’t concur with Pachter’s odious opinions.
26/07/2011 at 11:31 mattratcliffe says:
I”ll just leave this here:
http://www.develop-online.net/features/1184/The-Valve-manifesto
Gabe Newell on crunch time is about halfway down. Also that Pachter is a tool.
26/07/2011 at 12:08 Monchberter says:
This is the extended Gabe Interview version: http://www.develop-online.net/features/1192/Gabe-Newell-on-Valve
26/07/2011 at 12:40 JackShandy says:
Thanks for the links, guys. That was fantastic.
26/07/2011 at 21:00 Berzee says:
Good stuff, read it! :D
26/07/2011 at 11:31 Curvespace says:
I’d point him towards the book The Loss of Happiness in Market Democracies. It’d be good toilet reading for him, but I guess when you spout shit out of your mouth you don’t sit on the toilet all that much…
26/07/2011 at 11:31 Hagane says:
Pachter is a very intelligent person.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNnJqJ9hO4w
26/07/2011 at 12:24 Tams80 says:
http://www.youtubedoubler.com/?video1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DZNnJqJ9hO4w&start1=&video2=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DGpc5_3B5xdk&start2=&authorName=This+way
26/07/2011 at 11:32 pepper says:
This guy is a analyst? Sounds to me like he never worked a real job for a single day in his life.
And really, the actual developers almost never make a lot of money. The people that do make the big bucks are either the CEO types or investors.
26/07/2011 at 13:22 V. Profane says:
He doesn’t have a real job, he works in finance.
26/07/2011 at 22:46 Nalano says:
Win, V.
26/07/2011 at 11:33 Lu-Tze says:
Need to talk to our HR Manager and tell her my paychecks have been wrong for the last 5 years and I should’ve been earning $100,000+. This guy has opened my eyes.
26/07/2011 at 11:35 Monchberter says:
This is getting dangerously close to the commerce / art argument.
If you take the commerce argument, then someone working for a studio is just doing a job, they aren’t making the decisions about the financial viability of the thing they’re working on, that’s the project manager’s role and the responsibility of the company hence people should get paid
The art argument – which doesn’t work at all – is that you’re basically expected to always to be producing something that people should want to buy and that it’s your fault if noone buys it and hence you should only get paid if someone sees value in it. This may work if you are working by yourself or for a small indie reliant on raw sales but most games aren’t made like art. They are products like a box of cereal and the individual shouldn’t take the rap for a bad decision made by someone at the top.
26/07/2011 at 12:43 Alexander Norris says:
Surely it should be the other way round? The commerce argument should be “only produce that for which there is a demand,” and the art argument should be “only produce that which has an intrinsic value.”
26/07/2011 at 13:05 Monchberter says:
@ Alexander Norris
Yeah, I agree with you. But my point was that its about responsibility. Of course commercial decisions should be based on demand, but if you’re the developer working away on a flop for a big studio, it shouldn’t be you who takes the rap for it. Its the company’s role and its directors to ensure that you’re being employed to produce something that will sell. What our wonderful trolling analyst seems to be saying is that if a game fails – noone should get paid. But blame is not that cut and dried in the big corporates.
26/07/2011 at 22:49 Nalano says:
To put it succinctly, blaming your “lazy” staff – how dare they take evenings and weekends off! – is the mark of a bad manager. To punish them for your mistakes is not only morally reprehensible but very, very illegal.
26/07/2011 at 11:35 Jumwa says:
Well you can see why a guy who gets paid for repeating stuff that’s been common knowledge in the gaming community months after the fact wouldn’t have any empathy towards those who work for a living.
26/07/2011 at 11:37 WJonathan says:
“Analyst…Become”?
26/07/2011 at 11:42 Handsome Dead says:
who is michael patcher and why should i care about what he thinks
26/07/2011 at 13:33 Okami says:
He’s an analyst whose predictions usually turn out to be hilariously wrong.
27/07/2011 at 00:59 steviesteveo says:
Generally, if you find an analyst who makes predictions notable enough to get into the press, they’re going to be so outlandish in one way or another that the predictions never come true.
The analysts who sit there and go “lots of people will probably buy what Apple releases next” don’t get in the press — they’re busy writing reports for people to genuinely act on. The ones who say “not a single person in the world will buy another computing product when I say now”, get in the press.
I’m saying the press have some responsibility for why we almost never hear about an analyst who sounds like they know what they’re talking about.
27/07/2011 at 03:31 noclip says:
An analyst and a therapist — the world’s first…
(Good for you if you know the reference)
26/07/2011 at 11:42 ChaosSmurf says:
He’s not the analyst we deserve.
Or need.
Where was I going with this?
26/07/2011 at 12:25 NotoriousR says:
Pachter rambles too much.
26/07/2011 at 11:43 Calneon says:
For somebody who is meant to know a lot about the industry, he knows very little about the industry. I’m studying Computer Games Technology at university and from the information I’ve gathered, being a games programmer or artist pays less than a respective programming job in a big software development company.
You’re looking at £30,000 for a junior position, going up to about £50,000 if you’re a lead programmer/artist. That’s only in the UK though, I’m not sure how much big studios like Valve or EA pay their employees, but if every game developer makes $100,000 over in America, I know where I’m moving when I have my degree…
26/07/2011 at 11:48 Monchberter says:
Valve? Big? Big reputation maybe. But they run very much counter to the way most places are run and it looks inspirationally anarchistic.
http://www.develop-online.net/features/1192/Gabe-Newell-on-Valve
And for the record, this is probably one of the best gaming related interviews i have ever read.
26/07/2011 at 12:12 Bhaumat says:
Er, yeah good luck with that. If you’re talking straight out of university you’re more likely to be looking at a £18-20k salary, and that’s only if you can get your foot in the door. Many software places ask for 2 years of experience, but I get the impression game studios tend to be a little more savvy when it comes to finding competent new blood.
Obviously once you have some industry experience, those numbers start to look more realistic.
Pretty much like any other workplace, really.
26/07/2011 at 12:43 Tams80 says:
Some pretty good examples.
http://www.jagex.com/careers#/vacancies/game-programmer
Read the requirements.
26/07/2011 at 16:37 wererogue says:
I got my start at Jagex – they’re one of the only places that will take graduates, and even then they test and quiz you pretty thoroughly to make sure you know what you’re doing.
Good times :)
re: the story – Pachter is an tool and has bizarre ideas about how much the average dev makes. That figure is offensive for a programmer, and spits in the face of designers, artists and especially QA.
26/07/2011 at 11:45 pyjamarama says:
The fact the he is a ultra liberal is no surprise, but to actually say it’s okay to rob people if they aren’t able to fight back is just scum. His comments use to be entertaining bullshit most of the time but this is scum.
26/07/2011 at 12:20 reticulate says:
Uh, you might want to read up on your History of the Labour Movement, champ.
I’ll give you a hint: It’s not the ‘ultra-liberals’ that are against unionising or fair pay.
Edit: Unless we’re talking the Tory “Classical” Liberal as opposed to the US Liberal. In which case I blame whoever decided on the distinction.
26/07/2011 at 12:39 Alexander Norris says:
Pretty sure he meant the UK meaning of the word “liberal,” and not the US one.
As with everything that split between the two, the UK is of course right, and the US wrong.
(Except for tomato.)
26/07/2011 at 22:52 Nalano says:
To further confound the “liberal” tag, this ‘analyst’ seems distinctly “neo-liberal,” which basically means he’s a libertarian: Economically ultra-liberal – as in anything goes – but not classically liberal – as in progressive.
26/07/2011 at 11:46 sonofsanta says:
What a shame
No, wait, the other one: what a dickhead.
26/07/2011 at 11:47 Gothnak says:
I think Pachter is a dick… (Don’t quote me on that, but it’s true)… Also, i don’t know many people in the Uk who earn over $100k (in British Pounds of course) in this industry.
26/07/2011 at 11:49 Greg Wild says:
Of all the things Pachter has said, this is the only one which has ever really struck a chord with me.
That chord suggests Pachter is a colossal douche, and can go fuck himself.
26/07/2011 at 12:55 Giaddon says:
I hear more of a melody, something like: DCBAG
26/07/2011 at 11:51 Vexing Vision says:
But he’s not wrong.
If you want to make money, go work in banking or sell insurances or comfort people by providing hotline support.
If you want to work unpaid overtime, weekends, on call all the time and sitting unhealthily all day in front of a computer to either analyze billion lines of code or billion lines of excel, then come and work for games.
My personal choice between those two is clear.
(And it’s still the best job in the world. Unless you’re at EA.)
26/07/2011 at 11:58 jalf says:
Do you actually work in the games industry?
No, what you describe is not the best job in the world. (And I fail to see what EA has to do with anythnig. If you “work unpaid overtime, weekends, on call all the time and sitting unhealthily all day in front of a computer to either analyze billion lines of code or billion lines of excel”, I don’t really see what EA could do to make your job worse. Take away your chair, perhaps? Threaten to beat you up in your lunch break?
He’s wrong. You’re wrong.
26/07/2011 at 12:02 Pop says:
@Vexing Vision
I disagree. I’ve worked in the industry and I’ve met a few people with far better jobs.
One guy worked designing burglar alarms, basically sitting there thinking: “how are they going to get around this one”. On top of that he then had 1 day every week to work on what ever he pleased. That’s the best job in the world.
A great job is one where you’re empowered to do it well, working as part of a great team. It doesn’t really matter what you’re making – providing you don’t morally object to it. Indie game development might be one of the best jobs in the world, but AAA development has always struck me as one of the worst.
You don’t see many video games companies climbing up the times 100 best companies to work for after all. Partly because how interesting can life be when you’ve just been coding bloody vehicle physics for 7 years, or if you’ve just made Fifa 2010, and guess what you’re on next?!
In reality the video game industries blessing (and major failing) is the people who work in it. There are some incredibly talented people, who are a joy to work with. But there’s always a few idiots who are determined to ride this train to glory town, who can sour it.
If anyone is looking to make games, do it in your own time! I’ve no idea why anyone wants to work on AAA games. I’d rather work in finance than be a small cog in someone else’s vision.
26/07/2011 at 12:37 Alexander Norris says:
So can you provide any reason why we should in any way be content with how the games industry treats its employees, rather than demand they be both treated like human beings and given an opportunity to actually do something they like?
Pachter is colossally wrong on every possible level, here. He’s even more wrong than usual.
26/07/2011 at 14:31 Vexing Vision says:
Yeah, I do work in games for more than ten years now.
Crunchtime happens because people like me abuse the passion for games of people like myself. It works out, despite the overtime and lack of weekends because we still love what we do, in a semi-masochistic relationship with our products.
Anyone working voluntarily in games is insane, is my point.
EA is not a place I would recommend for the working climate. It’s a brilliant place to have on your CV, but expect to move on exhausted after two years.
26/07/2011 at 23:07 Nalano says:
In a non-dickish way to say it, Vexing, you’re saying that the flood of people who want to work in this industry is depressing the bargaining power of the people who already work in it, by the simple capital notion of supply and demand: It’s an employer’s market. Thing is, every industry is an employer’s market, now. We’re in a recession, after all.
Now, this flood of labor need not make those currently employed suffer. Indeed, this hurts unions only in right-to-work states, which forbids unions from making deals with employers where-in only union employees may be considered for hire. Because of those right-to-work laws, employers have an endless pool of legal scabs if ever there’s a problem.
Now, I shouldn’t have to say this, but just because people want to work in a particular industry doesn’t mean they deserve to be exploited by it. Work is work, and while working in an industry you like is rewarding, you still work primarily to get paid. As such, the issue here isn’t that they’re artists who are being given their big break and are just paying the toll for the privilege. The issue here is that labor laws in a lot of places are too weak to defend them.
On a related note, this ‘analyst’ is still wrong on another front, which is that if you overwork your staff, you get less results. If you turn your workplace into a high-turnover, low-remittance hellhole, you get exactly what you pay for. It’s bad economic policy, it’s bad social policy, and it’s simply bad management.
26/07/2011 at 11:55 Pop says:
Dam, I was working for the wrong videogame company! $100000 is easily twice what I was on. To be fair, I never had crunch… do I still get to moan about my salary?
I do agree with him to some extent. If you’re a programmer (as I am), if you don’t like crunch, get another job! Possibly working in finance where you actually stand a chance of making over £60K – the automotive industry being a bit on the dead side in the UK.
If people quit because of crunch, the industry will have to change. You can’t exactly run a company without a work force.
Even as a consumer you have enormous power. If you boycott Rockstar/Team Bondi games until they change their working practices, they’ll either go bust or reform. I’ve refused to buy LA Noire, and am not going to buy the next Team Bondi game unless they show they’ve remunerated their staff.
There are plenty of great indie games which don’t seem to suffer from bullying naive graduates into working ungodly hours just to produce mediocre titles.
Out of interest: can someone tell me why people do this?! They waste their lives working on some flop of a title and are usually being paid poor money! If you’re passionate about games, why do you put up with working on crap?
26/07/2011 at 11:59 Rinox says:
This man’s remarks are symptomatic of everything that’s wrong with unbridled capitalism. The employee/worker should be glad that he’s being abused and squeezed out like a lemon, in their view. The balance between personal and professional is going to shit, and with it personal sovereignty. Your job owns you.
The worst thing is that these kinds of rules and ideas are now being enforced everywhere to pay for the ‘financial crisis’. Cutting down on social security to pay for the gaping hole left in the economy by rich speculators – the genius of corporate capitalism.
26/07/2011 at 12:35 Alexander Norris says:
This is the unfortunate effect of having governments who owe their allegiance to businesses rather that the People. The economic downturn only gave them an excuse to get in power by making their “austerity” measures seem acceptable to the average person, who sadly has very little political awareness, apparently. :(
26/07/2011 at 12:54 Gunde says:
It’s more in line with fascism, using the state to work against unions on the behest of corporations. Capitalism doesn’t have anything against labour unions per se, because they’re simply organising workers to create a better negotiating position against the employers.
But that’s beside the point, because the Pach is just pushing everyone’s buttons, like he always does.
26/07/2011 at 12:57 Rinox says:
@ Alexander Norris
Agreed. :-( Problem is that pretty much the entire political pantheon seems to be ‘in’ on the deal, even the socialists/labour. The only party that seems to be radically opposed to the notion are the communists, and I don’t want to give my vote to them either. Gah.
Time for our own political party, then?
26/07/2011 at 23:10 Nalano says:
Didn’t you know, Alex Norris?
Corporations are people, too!
26/07/2011 at 12:01 World One Two says:
“So IF you are trapped in some kind of Greek allegory where you are forced to crunch game dev for all eternity, then you are allowed to complain. But to who? Hades himself, probably. But he won’t care, he’s from my Dad’s generation, and therefore too old to understand videogames.”
Ha.
26/07/2011 at 12:02 somini says:
Pachter is trapped in Carmack and Romero’s golden age…
26/07/2011 at 12:08 LuNatic says:
Whilst I agree that if you earn 100k a year you have no right to complain about overtime, I seriously doubt that many game devs earn even close to this.
26/07/2011 at 12:23 Curvespace says:
How much you earn should have no effect on the time you should (by law) be allowed to spend with your loved ones.
26/07/2011 at 12:10 Cunzy1 1 says:
When will the games industry grow up though? I can’t think of any other industry that is so haphazard retail models are broken, products are often forgotten about two weeks after launch, there’s very little job security, developer studios form, ship an average game then crumble with absurd frequency, the list goes on….
There are exceptions to the above examples and they tend to make some good games to boot but considering how often we’re told it’s a billion pound industry it still seems to be largely run like Toon Town.
26/07/2011 at 12:13 Stormbane says:
This article should have read:
“In other news Michael Pachter said more stupid shit. Lets play Sweatshop!”
26/07/2011 at 12:19 reticulate says:
I’ve never met anyone in the industry on 100k a year. Of course, I’ve never met the likes of Carmack or Levine, so there’s that.
26/07/2011 at 16:27 ankh says:
You ask everyone you meet how much they earn? Must be awkward.
26/07/2011 at 12:24 kwyjibo says:
Asking an investment banker about work/life balance isn’t going to be productive.
He’s right about unions though. If you’re skilled, you shouldn’t need them.
26/07/2011 at 12:26 CMaster says:
“He’s right about unions though. If you’re skilled, you shouldn’t need them.”
What’s the reasoning behind that?
26/07/2011 at 12:33 Alexander Norris says:
In the magical land of Capitalism, corporations don’t shit all over the rights of skilled workers, you see, because they are skilled and it is a magical meritocracy where skill is rewarded.
26/07/2011 at 12:36 kwyjibo says:
If you’re skilled, the power lies with the employee. Even if you get canned, you have mobility.
If on the other hand, you’re a sorry tube driver, who can and should be replaced by robots, then you probably need to go on strike with the RMT.
26/07/2011 at 12:50 Rinox says:
Wow. We can only wish not to be a tube driver in your utopia.
I wonder, how would your vision be in its extended version? Only graduates getting jobs (or deserving them), so what do we do with all those who didn’t receive higher education?
26/07/2011 at 12:51 CMaster says:
But the point about environments like the game industry is that everywhere you move to has the same poor conditions. Your mobility and “skills” don’t help, nor are your skills in such short supply that your employer can’t afford to lose you. The only way that seems likely to change is with collective action? Honestly, there are few professions where your skills are genuinely so scarce that you individually have great power, and most of those where it is the case have artificial scarcity as a result of unions controlling the numbers who can be trained (Doctors, Lawyers, etc)
Also, if you really can be easily replaced by a robot, going on strike is probably a bad idea – it will just encourage your employers to do so. See Murdoch and the print unions.
26/07/2011 at 13:38 kwyjibo says:
Citigroup advertise their technical positions in Edge, they’re targeting professionals in the games industry. That’s a clear indication that those skills travel.
26/07/2011 at 14:37 TsunamiWombat says:
They travel to a different industry. That has labor law enforcement and unions. And when everyone travels, there will be no games industry left. Logical fallacy.
26/07/2011 at 15:05 kwyjibo says:
Investment banks have labour law enforcements and unions? Pull the other one.
And how is the ability to jump industries a logical fallacy?
26/07/2011 at 16:00 seattlepete says:
“Even if you get canned, you have mobility.”
You may have mobility, but you do not have health insurance. Not in the US anyway. I used to feel the same way as you…I worked 9 to 5, that was my mantra. If you needed me to work until 6, too bad. I’m going home. If you don’t like it, fine – go find someone else with my skill set. Oh that’s right, they all retired 20 years ago.
Then my wife got cancer.
Now I stay as long as they want because god forbid they do find someone else with my skill set and figure I’m too much of a hassle. I could probably get another job pretty quickly, probably while COBRA is still covering me, but why risk it? Obamacare technically means that my wife can’t get turned down for coverage at my next job, but what if the timing is bad and I am out of work at the same time that the other side attempts to repeal it? I could end up losing everything if my wifes condition went south while I was “moving my skills around”…
26/07/2011 at 23:17 Nalano says:
So a machinist isn’t skilled?
Seriously, this is such shit. Having a college degree in computer science doesn’t mean you have the money to move cross-country to chase jobs. It doesn’t give you a slush fund to survive being out of work.
I think the wrong word is being used. It’s not “skill.” I think what’s being said is that if you’re in the right socio-economic class – if you’re a manager – you will always be cared for.
Yeah. Donald Trump was at one point in personal debt to the tune of 900 million dollars. Personal. Not corporate. Trump’s also filed for bankruptcy a dozen times. People still lend Trump money.
We are not in the same class as Trump, and were I not sure this’d end up in an FBI file somewhere, I’d say what we should do to the likes of Trump.
27/07/2011 at 10:56 kwyjibo says:
Millions of the rural poor have flooded to the coastal cities of China to find their fortune.
If you have a college degree, and aren’t prepared to be mobile, then your lack of options is your own doing.
26/07/2011 at 12:29 Njordsk says:
Bondi are free men in viking culture. I find that funny for a team beeing enslaved. Well somehow funny I mean.
26/07/2011 at 12:30 PoulWrist says:
Everyone I know who works in game development don’t make a lot of money. We’re talking content designers, game directors, artists, writers, that sort of thing, on AAA MMO titles. They make a really average income. But kind of makes sense, since most the people who do work in the games industry is just some guy who came into it because he liked games, not because he had a long education making him an expert on the subject. Hell, I almost got into the game industry at the actual development level without any prior experience, only thing blocking me was they had an equally good candidate in the same country… and I’m not educated in content design.
26/07/2011 at 12:34 Njordsk says:
Please, not all like LA noire :’(
26/07/2011 at 12:45 VelvetFistIronGlove says:
I would take Michael Pachter so much more seriously if his company really was called “Excitable Wedbush Securities”.
26/07/2011 at 12:53 Tams80 says:
Excessive and preplanned crunch time surely is in the legal gray area? Doctors get lambasted for extra PAID hours. Well, there are attempts to in the EU at least.
The games industry can get away with it to some degree, as game development seems to be one of the industries where it is fairly common for people to be really passionate about their job. Using the ‘art argument’ is just exploitation of their passion. This is acceptable to some degree and probably more acceptable at indie developers, but the general impression given, especially at large publishers, is that it is taken too far.
26/07/2011 at 13:00 ReV_VAdAUL says:
Here is a quote a friend sent me yesterday. I sadly can’t link to the article itself but will try to find it:
In a recent report in a JP Morgan memo to their investors from Michael Cembalest, the chief investment officer he says, “US labor compensation is now at a 50-year low relative to both company sales and US GDP.” Cembalest continues to explain why corporate profits are so strong while the rest of the working class are feeling the pinch, “reductions in wages and benefits explain the majority of the net improvement in margins.” 75% of the increase in profit margins directly correlate with the reduction in workers’ wages.
So given Pachter’s job is to make the rich richer it is unsurprising he supports continued suppression of worker’s wages.
Also something worth thinking about is the context of the minimum wage, if you divide time worked by amount paid, crunch time could well lead even the mythically highly paid skilled employees in game design and elsewhere (I know for a fact Lawyers in big firms have to work crazy hours) get less than minimum wage. People like Pachter mask this by highlighting the monthly / yearly lump sum rather than the actual amount of hours a person is working.
26/07/2011 at 13:00 JackShandy says:
Guess it’s Pachter the drawing board with that theory!
26/07/2011 at 13:03 Jimbo says:
ZING!
26/07/2011 at 13:02 Dinger says:
What hasn’t been said so far is that, for every successful game that makes a lot of money and attracts a lot of attention, there are nine others that fewer people play. Just as many people are working on those nine as on the winner.
What do most of the losers (and many of the winners) have in common in terms of development strategy?
They’re managed by people who’ve realized that any number of qualified-on-paper 22-year-olds can be coaxed in working 80-hour-weeks for peanuts in order to “break in” to the games industry.
Such an approach is lethal to talented individuals, and to developing those 22-year-olds into talent. Fire and forget. The ability to spot creative talent, and to concentrate it in an environment that maximizes its potential, is a rare art, and is one strong reason why a relatively small studio like Valve can have such a huge impact.
26/07/2011 at 13:09 Monchberter says:
Unfortunately the gaming industry seems to be built on the same Darwinian foundations as the film and music industries. Produce quantity and hope something will make money for all your losses.
26/07/2011 at 13:24 JackShandy says:
Mmm. Apparently only 20% of games make a “Significant profit”.
http://kotaku.com/5098356/only-20-of-games-make-a-profit-+-eedar
No definition of “Significant profit” given, of course.
26/07/2011 at 13:23 JFS says:
If sweatshops had unions, they wouldn’t be sweatshops in the first place. Oh well.
26/07/2011 at 13:28 0mer says:
You never go full retard, Michael. Never.
26/07/2011 at 13:30 Okami says:
If your monthly income would depend on the contribution you make to society, Pachter would have starved to death long ago.
26/07/2011 at 13:43 vodka and cookies says:
Cherry picking comments is pretty unfair to Patcher did you even watch the original video where he is discussing this so some of his comments are made to sound harsh taken out of context although your own political viewpoints assuming your a British liberal may not jibe well with a American capitalist.
http://www.gametrailers.com/video/episode-222-pach-attack/717740
26/07/2011 at 14:52 Tams80 says:
“Taken out of context” is overused. The Sun, what was News of the World, The Mirror, Heat Magazine, Engadget, Gizmodo, Fox News and other others do so quite a lot and even more reputable (in my opinion) organizations do as well sometimes. However “taken out of context” is increasing used to defend a point/s, rather than actually being meant. Pachter said what he said and in fairness, RPS quoted several large chunks of it. I struggle to see how it was therefore taken out of context.
26/07/2011 at 16:10 Calabi says:
I watched the full video a few days before, and what Pach actually says is worse than Jims summarisation.
26/07/2011 at 16:56 Pointless Puppies says:
I watched the video and still think his statements are incredibly misinformed and idiotic. No “taking out of context” there.
26/07/2011 at 13:45 johnpeat says:
I love that he highlights the way hourly paid car workers will be put out of a job but that NEVER happens to games developers – oh no…
Reading what he says is like staring at a turd, you’re just fighting the urge to look away or puke, constantly…
26/07/2011 at 13:58 Kaira- says:
Respect breeds productivity. If you enjoy your work (meaning good pay, enjoy working on whatever you’re working on and good, planned hours) you are less likely to leave the company and on other hand, you are more likely to do better work than a disgruntled person who works at 50% efficiency, so to say.
26/07/2011 at 14:05 HeavyStorm says:
Well, I’m a dev myself, just not a game dev… I had never-ending crunching hours (15 hours days, 7 days a week) which lasted for as long as six months which, in dear Pachter opinion, is reasonable. Why? Is it punishment for working with what I want? Like typing code in an IDE is a perfect world.
You know, if he was talking about soccer players who make 1 million bucks a month to play soccer, well, I would understand. Not that it’s easy — playing professionally isn’t that fun — but becoming a millionaire by playing games is The Dream. Ours, at least.
Aaaaand, I don’t make 100.000 every year. I’m not from the US, so, if I take the exchange rate into account, I’d say I make a little bit more than half of what he said.
But this is capitalism, and we should make as much money as our work is worth. A lot of factors decide that: how much the product is worth to the market, how simple it’s to find someone else to do one’s job, etc. But the thing is that even if you are worth a lot of money, maybe you’d like to make a little less and work a little less, but that’s not an option. If you decide you’ll only work 8 hours days, you’ll probably get fired. And if that happens once, twice, three times, then you’ll be out of a job for a real long time, since the industry isn’t that big.
So we need unions, we have the right to complain, and the idiot who says otherwise should study the law — it’s against it to have bad working conditions and unpaid overtime.
26/07/2011 at 14:18 Berzee says:
ewwww unions :(
26/07/2011 at 14:42 TsunamiWombat says:
Ewww, social movements where like minded individuals get together to protect themselves and their families from the fickle whims of an unpredictable capitalist market in a completly non violent and legal way.
The hell is that, eh? Nothing like a political party which is a protected and established element of all democractic systems, thats for certain.
26/07/2011 at 14:57 Tams80 says:
What is even more confusing, is that is a lot of other industries, employers are required to pay increased wages for overtime (depending on the country). Now, many try their best to avoid this. Most just don’t give overtime, as the increased wages puts them off. Some, however find loopholes. To me crunch time just sounds like an exploited loophole.
26/07/2011 at 19:14 Berzee says:
Well, you don’t really get overtime if you’re salaried, though. At least I don’t. =)
And I reiterate: unions — ewwww. Regardless of how you phrase ‘em.
26/07/2011 at 19:16 Jim Rossignol says:
I’d argue that “ewwww” has a similar rhetorical weight to “pfff”.
26/07/2011 at 19:29 Berzee says:
Agreed =)
They both fall just a little bit under “bah”.
26/07/2011 at 23:21 Nalano says:
I do, Berzee.
Otherwise, I wouldn’t work overtime.
I’m very happy to be part of a union.
27/07/2011 at 04:15 Berzee says:
Lucky! Or not really lucky, but at least — that is a nice position to be in. =)
Me though, I don’t know if I could stand to be in a job where I was part of a union. Ew/pff.
27/07/2011 at 06:35 Nalano says:
I know, right? Having some modicum of defense against your bosses’ capricious demands is such a burden.
ESAD.
26/07/2011 at 14:38 del says:
I don’t even earn dollars, let alone that many! :(
26/07/2011 at 15:13 shoptroll says:
He should go back to making guesstimates about sales numbers and units shipped. The man knows nothing about being a developer and he shouldn’t be opening his mouth about things he doesn’t understand.
Webush Morgan pay him to tell stock market suits where to put their money. Not to make sweeping statements about how the industry works.
26/07/2011 at 15:13 Muzman says:
Libertarian scum. There ain’t a bus big enough to chuck them all under.
26/07/2011 at 16:49 Monchberter says:
Announcing yourself as a Libertarian is the same as saying “I don’t like to think too much”.
26/07/2011 at 17:45 Muzman says:
And it used to be a such a nice political position too, before the Randies and other yanks got hold of it.
26/07/2011 at 18:19 Alexander Norris says:
Hey, in all fairness, I am open to the possibility that there are actual libertarians out there – people who are just minarchists who believe a properly-set-up market can be the fairest redistributor of wealth.
Of course, I’m a colossal optimist and keep on being disappointed.
26/07/2011 at 15:22 AttackOfTheThumbs says:
100k is in no way the average and depending on where the studio is, is either a lot, or not that much pay.
Pachter has said some very dumb things concerning this subject. Very dumb.
Fact is, software is developed on a project basis. Create this, we pay X. If the company being paid decides to pay by hour and as a result requires a shit ton of over time, then the project had horrible, horrible planning and the man hours were drastically miscalculated.
If they pay employees a fair amount for x weeks/months spent on project, then there’s some sort of contract that likely states that you need to suck it up and work the OT. I don’t think anyone has seen the Team Bondi contract so I’m not sure anyone can even say if this goes against Labour laws there (Australia I think?).
What should have happened was that the deadline was pushed back to avoid OT without creating much additional cost and possibly asking the stakeholders for further payment, but again, it all depends on the contract. If there is no wiggle room, then you’re shit out of luck, really.
As said, without the signed contracts, there is nothing of any importance we can say looking from the outside in. For all we know they all signed very foolish contracts which are possibly illegal because of labour laws.
26/07/2011 at 15:24 Outright Villainy says:
Why do people listen to Michael Pachter? This is a legitimate question, and one I’ve never gotten a satisfactory answer for. He just says a lot of stupid shit, hoping some of it sticks. That ol’ broken clock proverb rings pretty true here methinks.
26/07/2011 at 15:48 ReV_VAdAUL says:
I watch his gametrailers videos because it is always interesting to know how the money men think. The people at the top of big games companies are going to have a similar mindset about making as much money as possible rather than caring about games.
I suppose the flip side of that is he says a lot of what those at the top want to hear. On a similar note I remember Activision being accused by a former employee of massaging focus groups so focus groups gave them the answers they wanted rather than genuine feedback. Yes men tend to find an audience among business leaders.
Thirdly the dude is a total brown noser, he will praise nearly any industry person or company he mentions to high heaven and name drops a good deal too.
26/07/2011 at 15:25 Brutal Deluxe says:
Pop will eat itself.
26/07/2011 at 15:42 Khann says:
Can’t wait for the day that people no longer take shit from their corporate overlords.
Unfortunately, people seem to be getting weaker, with less drive to question, instead accepting that “that’s just the way it is” and calling anybody who disagrees a “naive” fool.
If wishing the world was a better place and people fought for the rights they deserve makes me naive, then naive I am.
26/07/2011 at 15:46 HelderPinto says:
Amen my friend.
26/07/2011 at 15:51 ReV_VAdAUL says:
People have plenty of fight in them yet, it is just that a lot of effort is put into making us think they don’t:
http://mediamatters.org/research/201102180015
edit: One of the most important things you can do is talk to people you know, not just friends, about the problems you face because a lot of effort is also put into making us think only we have these concerns.
26/07/2011 at 15:44 HelderPinto says:
Shit… I make 100k a year and I wasnt even aware of it!
also why does he give Infinity Ward as an example to make millions, they’re just a very easy success example to point out, out of thousands and thousands of companies who try hard and fail miserably.
26/07/2011 at 16:07 Stitched says:
I work in the game industry, and have been for 16 years now. All I want is the back-pay of those years where I didn’t make $100,000.
That should be … oh, around a million dollars by now.
Good thing, I didn’t ask to be paid for all that overtime. Would probably come out to well over a million.
26/07/2011 at 16:32 Gar says:
I work unpaid weekends and overtime (45-50 hours/week, paid for 40) and only get paid $30K per year. My “crunchtime” (60+ hours per week, for a month or so) comes before writing/submitting a paper, something that occurs more frequently than a studio releases a AAA game if things are going well. Soon I will begin classes on top of this, and my salary will drop down to about $26K for 4 or 5 years (though I will eventually earn a PhD if everything goes well). This is totally fine with me and I love my job; If I didn’t do it, someone else happily would. As Vexing Vision points out, if you want to make money and work 30-40 hours a week, get a boring job in banking or try to become a lawyer. If you want to work in a very competitive industry doing something you’re passionate about, this sort of thing is not exactly uncommon and I don’t really understand what all of the fuss is about. If you don’t like the conditions of your job, try doing something else!
26/07/2011 at 16:49 Stitched says:
“If you want to work in a very competitive industry doing something you’re passionate about, this sort of thing is not exactly uncommon and I don’t really understand what all of the fuss is about. If you don’t like the conditions of your job, try doing something else!”
Because changing the conditions of your industry is not worthwhile. Right? Right.
26/07/2011 at 16:59 Gar says:
No, it’s not worthwhile. A lot less would get done, thus grant money from the state and federal government would not be going as far as it is going right now. I am fine with the conditions, as are many others who are either in the industry or wish they were. There is only so much grant money available, and we are competing with other labs to get it.
26/07/2011 at 17:35 ReV_VAdAUL says:
There is a considerable difference between a big games having people work overtime for free so they get a bigger profit on the commodity they sell and someone working in academia.
Still though, your statement there is only so much grant money to go around is an odd one. I mean oil companies make huge profits and still want to keep federal subsidies for the oil industry. Why shouldn’t academic institutions and people working in academia push for better pay and more money for research grants even if it is something they love?
Everyone deserves a decent standard of living, not just people who work at the top of a few sectors that manage to hoover up the lion’s share of the money.
edit: just dug out this graph of Academic salaries. No reason to push for better or more equitable wages even within your institution: http://imgur.com/FXZzu.gif
26/07/2011 at 18:23 Gar says:
“There is a considerable difference between a big games having people work overtime for free so they get a bigger profit on the commodity they sell and someone working in academia.”
There are several similarities as well though. Game companies are often competing for gamers money; The average gamer simply doesn’t have the time or money to play everything. These game companies need to put out the best products they can while maintaining a budget allocated to them from the publishers, the same way we need to put out the most/best research we can using only what we receive through grants. If you don’t want to put in the long hours to work in your industry of choice, no one is making you, and someone else will gladly step into your spot if given the chance. This also applies to both.
My main point stands – if you want to get paid more and/or work less, there are other options available – but working in a desirable, competitive industry is going to have to require more work and less pay at the bottom, as you can’t simply hire everyone and there are always going to be people passionate enough to be willing to sacrifice some of their free time for their job without pay. And as far as that graph is concerned, I’m pretty sure my Graduate Student salary is significantly less than the average game developer, but you will get no complaints here.
26/07/2011 at 18:35 ReV_VAdAUL says:
The point of a union though is to balance out how little a company or organisation can get away with paying people because there are people competing for their job with the reasonable demands and expectations to a decent salary and decent amounts of salary.
The fact some silly people are willing to give their labour away for free leaves them out of pocket, with less free time and devalues everyone else’s labour.
Also while for you it may be “passion” that causes you to accept such a bum deal, Corporate America openly accepts that most of their profits now come from not paying employees a fair amount for their work.
I mean to make a comparison, do you accept that while corporate profits are going strong people should accept worse pay and conditions just because, in a time of high unemployment, there is a lot of competition for jobs? How much unpaid work and lost free time do you think is acceptable?
26/07/2011 at 19:10 Gar says:
I’m pretty sure both people in the AAA games development industry and academic research make a decent enough salary, and unions are not necessary for either (in my opinion). Both of these are skilled labor positions, and there comes a point where skill and quality of output becomes more important than the amount of hours put into it. Sure, there may be some bloke who is willing to give up a lot more hours, but is his larger amount sloppy work going to be as desirable or worthwhile as someone who puts out much better quality, though only willing to spend significantly less time doing it? Sometimes that answer is no.
I’m a firm believer in competition, survival of the fittest, you can’t have it all, life isn’t fair, etc etc. when it comes to certain industries. Manual labor is one thing and I’m all for unions in most cases involving it along with many others, but for the video game industry?!? Please. If you can’t stand your position in an entertainment/luxury industry, let someone else have it. If there is no one else who is qualified that wants it, then the terms and/or conditions will be improved until someone capable does. It seems silly to me to whine about being in a situation that thousands would rather be there than where they currently are.
26/07/2011 at 22:39 JackShandy says:
The “Thousands of people want to do it, live with your poor conditions” argument just never sounds right. (It reminds me of victorian england, to be honest.) If thousands of people want to do your job, and you’ve gotten it, you’re the best of the best and deserve to be treated fairly. One of the problems with Team Bondi was that they couldn’t see the difference between keeping long-term employees and firing everyone for one of the thousands of graduates willing to take their place.
I can only assume you haven’t read much about team bondi, because I can’t believe you’d call it fair working conditions if you had.
26/07/2011 at 23:04 Gar says:
If it was really so bad that a particular individual didn’t think it was worth it to stay through the crunch, then they should have quit. My main point still stands – you don’t have to put up with what you’re not comfortable doing, and no one is making you stay unless you signed a ridiculous contract or something. And if you did, well, tough luck, that’s your own fault.
If you’re not happy because of your conditions, but like your work and are skilled and/or experienced enough, then get a similar job elsewhere. If you’re not, do something else. It’s that simple.
26/07/2011 at 17:27 runtheplacered says:
Oh look. Another editor that has absolutely no idea what Pachter’s job is.
26/07/2011 at 17:58 Zogtee says:
So, people working in game development shouldn’t expect to get paid? And yet, they are all rich?
What a strange and magical world the game industry is!
26/07/2011 at 20:57 Hoaxfish says:
Teachers have unions, head-teachers have unions.
Please don’t cover this guy if you can help it. Another site seems to have an article every time he says something stupid like this, and it’s probably not healthy to read that much.
26/07/2011 at 22:48 medwards says:
I recently asked a friend of mine who is recently ‘upgraded’ to management at a game developer because I wanted to calibrate my expectations if I applied for a tools programming position (because its slightly shielded from crunch). To my embarrassment I discovered that I made more without my diploma in a more junior position. I hope you guys *really* love what you do…
26/07/2011 at 23:21 nootron says:
I agree 100%.
Just look at Tarn Adams and Marcus Persson. One has made 60 million dollars and the other has made enough to eat next month. And the only reason for the discrepancy is good old elbow grease, right Tarn?
/boggle
27/07/2011 at 18:55 puaemerson says:
The difference is games are artistic – building a car is not. Finding the fun is not as easy as “does this car drive”
28/07/2011 at 09:46 ThinKyX says:
100K $?
Where the hell do you get that kind of money?
I’m starting as a game developer in September and I’ll make 18k €….