By Jim Rossignol on March 18th, 2012 at 11:00 am.

Sundays are for looking at far away places on the map and feeling a bit like Truman. I should like to go to Fiji. One day. Now though, it’s time to consider other escapes, and the things people write about them.
- We’ll have our own feature on this soon, but I wanted to link to Gnome’s Lair’s coverage of Wing Commander Saga, the freeware project intended to bring that franchise back to life in the Freespace 2 engine: “Features don’t make games great. What makes them great is the love poured into them, great game dynamics, and solid storytelling–and we’ve done our best to make sure Wing Commander Saga has all of that. We, as designers, wanted to ensure that the entire experience is exciting: the game makes you feel that you are not just watching the action but actually stepping into the role and experiencing what it is like to be Sandman.”
- Tom Jubert writes a response to the BAFTA talk by Bioware: “The punch that’s pulled – the willingness to actually pin down what art is beyond what we think it is – renders the art world a much less interesting place to be. It means there is no right and no wrong in taste; that the statement ‘video games are art’ is meaningless, because we can say with equal validity ‘Kenco coffee is art’, provided someone somewhere considers it so.”
- I’ve been meaning to link this for a while, and finally remembered. Campbell’s “The Dark Side Of Digital Distribution“: “While we can’t think offhand of a more heinous or blatant case, Touch Racing is far from a unique one. (The first well-documented iOS example was probably Paper Toss, originally a free game but which was downgraded with ads just before it started to add content.) WoSland is a pretty wily consumer, and currently has eight apps sitting in its iPhone’s “update” queue which are never going to get those updates, because the “update” in question is in fact a downgrade, removing functionality and/or adding ads. We’ve deleted many others altogether for the same reason.”
- “Why are adults still launching tabletop war?” asks the BBC, somewhat condescendingly. Kieron Gillen replies: “[There's] the satisfaction of looking at ranks of badly-daubed Skaven (man-sized anthropomorphic rats) and knowing they’re yours and you made them in a real way.”
- Bogost’s review of Journey at The Atlantic: “When they speak about their games, Jenova Chen and Kellee Santiago often express a hope that they might explore or arouse positive emotions in their players, emotions they do not feel from other sorts of games. Isn’t this sense of delight and vitality precisely what they are after? Yes, to be sure. But it is also the thrill of all victories, and the vertigo of all dizzinesses. Chen and Santiago sell themselves short with this this trite incantation about emotions. For their journey has not been one of creating outcomes, but of culturing a style, an aesthetic that defines the experience without need for their aphorisms. Instead: the sand and the ruins. The wind and the fabric. The silence of a cryptographic mythology. The vertigo of breeze, the swish of dunes.”
- Notch at the BAFTAs.
- When games were more than a download: “Some experiences are better for a little struggle though, and I maintain that clicking a link in Steam – or, if you swing that way, Origin – simply isn’t the same. It’s more convenient, no question. It’s faster. But just like a paperback book still feels more real than a Kindle download, there’s something to be said for a physical thing to lust over and lay your hands on. A row of games on a shelf may take up space, but it also acts as a personal trophy cabinet, an at-a-glance reminder of battles won, universes saved, calls of duty successfully answered. A set of bland DVD cases lacks the same oomph, and even those are on the way out – especially on PC, where direct-download services are king.”
- The Mittani talks about giving players a voice in Eve Online: “Yet, on the whole, the CSM project has been on the side of CCP’s bottom line since the beginning. The CSM was vehemently critical of the Tyrannis and Incarna expansions before their releases, both of which were duds — duds which came to threaten the company’s survival. The Crucible expansion, on the other hand, is a laundry list of CSM-sponsored changes to the core gameplay of EVE, and the disaffected customer base has responded by re-subscribing in droves. Democracy can be dangerous if you defy it, but profitable if obeyed.”
- Some Economics of Pay What You Want Pricing.
- Warren Ellis asks: Is Magazine Publishing Really Screwed?
- This guy does not do enough to influence game design.
- Speaking of buildings, Arno Raps really knows how to photograph them.
No music this week. Just this image, via Mr Sutcliffe. Choose your own theme to that. (Even if it is the obvious answer of Daft Punk’s Tron soundtrack.)



18/03/2012 at 11:09 KDR_11k says:
That BLDGBLOG reminds me of when they built the new train station in Oberhausen. Due to the crazy design of the thing the city got several calls from concerned citizens that “the train station has collapsed!”
18/03/2012 at 11:27 mckertis says:
“http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-03-16-an-interview-with-comedian-dara-o-briain”
I was astonished he didnt say “fuck” or “shite” even once, as he usually does in his shows. Or maybe it was redacted.
Oh wait, i missed it at the very start. Figures.
18/03/2012 at 11:28 AlwaysRight says:
BBC being condescending indeed.
Why is it such a British thing to think that Games Workshop is for kids? The complexity of its systems, the patience and skill needed for the hobby and the reading age of its writing are all aimed at adults. Its weird that the average age for a hobbyist in the UK is 14 and is considered a bit childish, yet in America or Spain the average age is closer to the mid twenties and has much less of a negative stigma attached.
(As Jim hasn’t given a music recommendation; my album of the week is Julia Holter – Ekstasis)
18/03/2012 at 12:06 BigJonno says:
It’s because Games Workshop aim their products at kids. They have a very clear “hook ‘em while they’re young” strategy that results in their stores being largely occupied by teenage boys. The reading required for their rules and novels is firmly at a 12-14 year old level (which is being quite generous) but so is the majority of the mass media, which renders it less noticeable.
Adults who play their games tend to play with friends and buy most of their stuff online, or even in other hobby stores, where they’ll be cheaper. As a result, the adults you get in their stores are the ones who either don’t have anyone else to play with, or are quite happy in the company of teenagers, and generally perpetuate nerd stereotypes.
18/03/2012 at 12:20 AlwaysRight says:
What a shame
18/03/2012 at 13:42 theblazeuk says:
Because of people like this.
18/03/2012 at 14:27 BigJonno says:
Hey, I’m a life-long fan of GW’s output, I just don’t have any illusions about their business practices.
18/03/2012 at 14:36 LionsPhil says:
Because the “AWESUM TURNED UP TO ELEVEN IN HELL” styling of the 40K universe is pure teenage-boy-idea-of-cool. They have SWORDS that are also CHAINSAWS and full-auto GUNS that fire BULLETS that are actually ROCKETS and there are DEMONS whose HERESY you PURGE with EXTERMINATUS and and and…*excessive-blood-sugar convulsions*
18/03/2012 at 15:06 ukpanik says:
I liked this quote in the comments to that article:
“Critics who treat adult as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence.” – C. S. Lewis.
19/03/2012 at 00:28 BigJonno says:
CS Lewis was an incredibly wise man. I was a at a mate’s house the other night, helping him to spray up a Nerf gun and build a prop rocket pack for a LARP event in a couple of weeks. He made some crack about the fact that he was a 41 year old man spending his evening building a rocket pack. I just pointed out that we were having fun and that the “normal” alternative would have been sat around watching telly.
18/03/2012 at 11:48 fiddlesticks says:
The first song I thought of when I saw that image was this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTD8nWs4QjA
I don’t know what that says about me, but I’m scared.
18/03/2012 at 20:42 arqueturus says:
Instantly made me think of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjli3hj0ZkM
In fact the whole Interstella 555 saga.
18/03/2012 at 11:48 FCA says:
Oh, the irony of criticizing video games as art by comparing to Schindler’s List, a big bucks Hollywood production, which many art critics would disqualify as being art itself.
18/03/2012 at 17:36 TJ says:
LOL, I take the irony. I just preferred to use examples that I could guarentee everyone would be familiar with. No doubt I come across pretentious enough without referencing obscure works of art ;-)
18/03/2012 at 18:44 FCA says:
Fair enough. I don’t know enough about Hume or Kant to dispute you, but I’d say big bucks game production can just as much be art as big bucks movie productions.
18/03/2012 at 11:51 godwin says:
Having a defined (dominant) set of rules to read/critique works that appear in the form of video games is rather silly. Art criticism no longer even works like that anymore. Here you have a medium with the advantage of not lugging with it massive historical and theoretical baggage, and you want to attach that to it? Well, by all means go ahead; the point is that people will choose to read things the way they want, based on what they know — and no Theory will change that (and I mean, by the fact of it existing; of course people can and will also draw upon theory as part of “what they know”).
Being able to talk about something with big words does not automatically make it more important or better. Stop thinking about art like it’s some grand thing; an object of inspiration; the apex of aesthetic achievement; and things become a lot simpler (not simplistic — it’ll be less aggravating or grating).
18/03/2012 at 17:42 TJ says:
I don’t know if you take it to be, but my purpose here wasn’t to establish a practical critical framework of the type you dislike. People will, as you say, like whatever they like – however, I’m interested in understanding *why* they do.
“Stop thinking about art like it’s some grand thing; an object of inspiration; the apex of aesthetic achievement; and things become a lot simpler (not simplistic — it’ll be less aggravating or grating).”
This I do rather like :-)
18/03/2012 at 11:51 Gasmask Hero says:
I find it difficult to be moved by the plight of iphone wielding tosspots. Quoting the Sale of Goods Act is neither big nor clever, presumably Apple are well aware of this legislation and if it was such a heinous crime they would have fixed the issue by now.
And anyway, their policy is clearly stated in their t&c, as quoted in the article. I see no issue here.
18/03/2012 at 12:27 Llewyn says:
You have my sympathies, because this isn’t a terribly complex one to understand. People have paid for access to an application which has later been removed, with a requirement for them to pay for it again in order to access it again. They are not happy about it.
The iPhone bit, which seems to have blinded you somewhat, is really a red herring.
18/03/2012 at 12:32 InternetBatman says:
I really, really hate Apple and their products. But that doesn’t change the fact that what those companies are doing is wrong. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean that you should or make it right.
Also, by your logic corporations never break the law if they know what they’re doing is against the law.
18/03/2012 at 12:49 eks says:
I know right, idiot consumers expecting a product they paid for. The fucking nerve of them.
Please….. I wonder what would happen if any of the PC digital download services did this. What if a game on Steam you have already purchased updates and starts putting existing features behind a paywall or adds in game advertising where there previously were none?
I personally don’t care about Apple’s walled garden, I will never own an Apple product, but these sorts of things have the dangerous ability to set precedents in the industry. The fact that you think it’s acceptable behavior to take away a product that a consumer has already paid for proves that point.
18/03/2012 at 14:40 LionsPhil says:
Steam is a pretty good one to point at for this, since I don’t believe you can actually ever stop it updating a game. You can tell it not to pre-emptively update it whenever one is available, but whenever you go to play, it will enforce that the game is up-to-date first.
This is already a minor bummer for if a game had simple gameplay balances applied. Want throwing knives to be powerful in Deus Ex? Don’t play the Steam version; it’ll have the nerf applied. You’ll have to find a proper CD version where you’re in full control of what you run.
(As always, the likes of OnLive and browser-based games are the ultimate in control here. You will “run” what the server has installed.)
18/03/2012 at 18:19 Lemming says:
I don’t think that’s true is it? If you select the option for the game to ‘not apply or check updates’ it just leaves it alone. I’ve modded several of my Steam games and that’s the advice I”d been given for every one of them to avoid Steam detecting the mods as an error. It’s only a problem if you need to then apply an official patch after the fact.
I think you are correct when it come to some multiplayer games, but then that’s a good thing surely? Otherwise we’d be up to our eyes in god-mode mods for maximum frags.
18/03/2012 at 18:50 LionsPhil says:
Well, for multiplayer games not keeping up to date would mostly probably just lead to failure.
I’m reasonably sure that is the case, but even so, it’s a “you can never go back” approach, since installation is always to the newest version. Maintaining an old version is fundamentally more fragile than when you have that old version installable from CD. (Something something Steam’s backup system, I guess.)
18/03/2012 at 19:57 eks says:
Is that really important? The majority of people have all their games set to auto-update as that is the default and is supposedly one of the main features of Steam (“Not having to worry about patching your games”). But just the act of a developer offering an update that cripples their existing product by removing features or adding ads is outrageous. Although in saying that, Sony did it with their “Other OS” option on the PS3 and that was dismissed in court…..
Perhaps we are doomed to remain bottoms up waiting for the inevitable pain handed to us by the industry we hold so dear.
18/03/2012 at 11:53 ReV_VAdAUL says:
With the Giant Bomb guys returning to the Gamespot website umbrella, something I feel quite uneasy about, we finally get the inside scoop on one of the most controversial moments in games journalism pretty much ever;
Was Jeff Gerstmann fired because of that Kane and Lynch review?: http://www.giantbomb.com/news/and-now-the-rest-of-the-story/4037/
18/03/2012 at 19:04 Shooop says:
Good thing I don’t think Giant Bomb is a credible review source either.
18/03/2012 at 12:05 Retro says:
How I love the following sentence from http://wosland.podgamer.com/the-dark-side-of-digital/
“Just a few months after the first Guardian app came out, Spanish developer Bravo launched an acclaimed racing game at the same high-end price point.”
The “high-end price point” in question? £2.39
Isn’t this race to the bottom just as dark a side of digital distribution?
18/03/2012 at 12:34 RevStu says:
If only the piece hadn’t previously qualified such comments with “£2.39 (which is fairly premium-priced in iOS terms)“, then you might sound less of a tool. But I’m sure you’ll be along to fix that in a moment by pointing out that such a sum is “less than a cup of coffee!”, thereby removing any remaining shreds of doubt.
18/03/2012 at 14:50 Retro says:
Whatever. Not interested to discuss with someone hurling insults around.
18/03/2012 at 17:01 RevStu says:
Don’t be a tool, then. It rather invites people to make the observation.
18/03/2012 at 18:44 Shuck says:
That qualifier changes nothing – why is such a low price considered “premium”? @Retro’s question remains valid. No need to be rude about it. These personal attacks are complete unwarranted. You’re the only one acting like a “tool” here, I’m afraid.
Edit: And let me make clear, the issue bought up by @Retro is completely separate from the underhanded/idiotic tactics by developers brought up in the article, which are inexcusable regardless of what people paid for the apps.
19/03/2012 at 08:01 RevStu says:
why is such a low price considered “premium”?
Because it’s four times what most stuff in that market costs. Next?
18/03/2012 at 12:36 InternetBatman says:
Why? Some developers will make less money, but it allows people to experiment and buy games from unknown studios. I have a whole list of indie games I’ve gotten that I just don’t like, but it hasn’t put me off buying them because I haven’t lost a ton of money.
18/03/2012 at 18:59 Shuck says:
It’s not as simple as “indie/low budget games cost less.” A given game will be sold on iPhone/iPad for a tiny fraction of what it sells for on any other platform. In fact, right now on iOS devices, expecting people to pay anything has almost become “premium” pricing. (Which in turn means that game developers must rely on free-to-play revenue mechanics, which in turn restricts game designs to those that support f2p schemes.) On Android it is, if anything, worse. This sort of pricing expectation seems to be spreading to other mobile game platforms if nothing else (where having to support f2p schemes is quickly becoming mandatory), but things like Steam’s frequent, rock-bottom sales are surely having an impact as well.
18/03/2012 at 23:46 InternetBatman says:
I don’t see that as a bad thing, just that the markets have not evened out.
Take TV vs. Cable, there’s an example of a free ad supported one to cable, which has ads and is a premium service, to HBO which is an extra premium and not ad supported.
Similarly there are free newspapers, ad-supported cheap newspapers, and subscription magazines.
19/03/2012 at 02:29 Shuck says:
It’s true, it’s all in flux right now, but unfortunately the markets right now are evening out in the wrong direction – towards less sustainability and reduced variety in game designs.
19/03/2012 at 08:17 RevStu says:
reduced variety in game designs
Compared to what? The £40 boxed-game market, that bastion of originality and innovation?
Whatever their problems, the iOS charts still showcase a far wider range of game styles than any other format, and blaming low prices for a lack of variety is plainly mad anyway, because the higher up the videogames price ladder you go the less variety you tend to get.
18/03/2012 at 12:06 The Godzilla Hunter says:
The difference between Kindle v. paperbacks and retail v. DD is not the same at all. When you read a paperback, you spend the entire time holding the product. Most of the time, the experience with a retail copy and a DD copy is exactly the same.
18/03/2012 at 14:49 Mungrul says:
I’d even go so far as to say in most circumstances, I actually prefer my Kindle to a “real” book. I read the whole of “A Song of Ice & Fire” on it and it was easy and convenient. Have you seen the sheer size and unwieldliness of the actual paperbacks?
Let alone which, it has saved me sooooo much shelf space.
18/03/2012 at 19:45 deke913 says:
I just added that to my Kindle (on my phone no less) yesterday and started reading last night!
I like being able to read at night without having to have a light so I don’t disturb my wife sleeping next to me.
18/03/2012 at 12:09 phenom_x8 says:
And another nice interview with schafer about Psychonauts Post Mortem.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-03-16-the-cult-of-psychonauts
I’m gladly join the cult if it was called ‘The Cult Of Schafer’
18/03/2012 at 12:28 BooleanBob says:
Anyone out there able to explain that Economics of PWYW chart in words that an idiot could follow? I’m really interested in the subject, but to me it resembles a Day Today parody.
18/03/2012 at 12:50 cliffski says:
I wouldn’t bother, the assumptions are laughable. Firstly he describes the price vs quantity graph as a linear equation, which is frankly unbelievable (they are always curves of one sort or another, depending on the product), and secondly, hand-waves away marginal cost as zero, whereas digital distribution ahs both marginal costs in terms of payment processing, and also more subtle ones such as server-support, tech-support costs etc,
There is also a low price point at which effective marketing becomes pointless. You never see adverts from developers with $0.99 games, because a product that cheap, as a one-off purchase cannot be profitably advertised.
The economics of pay what you want are nowhere near as simple as is made out. Anyone can make some silly assumptions and draw a graph, it doesn’t make it vaguely true.
18/03/2012 at 13:26 FCA says:
“Dividing the world into linear and nonlinear equations makes just as much sense as dividing the universe into bananas and nonbananas” is what I think anytime somebody proposes a linear relation between two things.
18/03/2012 at 13:30 InternetBatman says:
Oddly enough, one time I was doing a bio 101 experiment and the results were exactly linear. It’s never happened before or since but it was pretty cool.
18/03/2012 at 14:42 LionsPhil says:
Biology, eh?
Were you experimenting on bananas?
18/03/2012 at 18:13 Baines says:
I still remember my Physics lab instructor’s directions:
1) Decide what curve you want
2) Plot your data
3) Draw your desired curve, trying to match it as well as possible to the data points present
4) Mark any/all points that are too far from the curve as invalid data
18/03/2012 at 18:16 Gap Gen says:
Baines’ physics teacher has clearly never seen an astronomy figure. “There’s probably a trend in this huge blob of points on this graph.”
18/03/2012 at 13:39 endaround says:
No marginal costs pretty much are zero. Tech support is pretty much a fixed cost and payment transaction comes from the the revenue side not the cost side.
18/03/2012 at 16:17 lightstriker says:
That’s… basically the same thing. It raises the price by X for the developer to make Y. It doesn’t matter where it comes from. There is essentially no difference between Paypal taking .10c per game and the developer paying 10c per game sold, because no matter which way it’s handled, the developer needs to charge 10cs more to make the same profit.
18/03/2012 at 18:13 cliffski says:
Tech support is a fixed cost?
Really?
You run a tech supprot department?
It definitely is not.
18/03/2012 at 23:49 InternetBatman says:
It’s a fixed percentage if you only use download services and never update.
18/03/2012 at 14:27 Tony M says:
I’m too dumb to fully understand that graph. But I got the impression he made a number of assumptions in order to to present a thought provoking theory. Like when physicists assume zero friction or no wind resistance. I don’t think he was presenting it as empirical proof that Cliffskis profits would increase 12.5% if he went PWYW.
18/03/2012 at 15:12 TheWhippetLord says:
The problem is that the assumption is so dominant to the ‘proof’. It’s not a ‘neglect friction’ assumption, it’s an ‘assume spherical cow’ assumption, as the old physics joke goes. Look at the price/quantity graphs in the two game examples – nowhere near linearity. As a back of envelope thought experiment it might be fun if you’re into that kind of thing (I don’t judge), but I don’t think it’s worth much consideration if you’re thinking about that kind of thing in real life.
18/03/2012 at 18:19 Gap Gen says:
It depends if the assumptions are reasonable – I guess if it’s useless he could have said it was just an illustration. But to use your physics example, a sphere in a vacuum is a fine model for some things, but parachute designers might want to steer clear.
18/03/2012 at 12:56 InternetBatman says:
So that shows a demand curve, which basically says the higher priced your stuff is, the less people will be able to or want to buy it. If you have a fixed price, the point, the income you receive is the area inside the square it forms. He’s saying that by making a pay what you want system you make a lower demand curve, but you get the area under the whole line, the grey area. Which may or may not be better.
It does as Cliffski says have a bunch of errors, but I think he was trying to make it as simple as possible.
18/03/2012 at 13:23 cliffski says:
well he is just putting in a graph what most people think in there heads. And factually it’s just wrong. Ask 10 people the most they would pay for product X and you get some number Y. Actually price it at Y+5 and those people still buy it. This is even more true if they know the answer to the ‘what is it worth? question actually *becomes* the price.
So comparing peoples actual price behavior against their claimed price behavior in response to picking a price, is crazy, the relationship does not vaguely hold.
18/03/2012 at 13:39 InternetBatman says:
I wouldn’t be comfortable saying it’s wrong or right until I had the data sets from at least one of these pay what you want events. Obviously it’s not linear, but the idea that you get a larger portion of the demand curve and that it could outweigh the pricepoint model very well could be.
18/03/2012 at 16:22 lightstriker says:
That’s… incredibly hard to do, because there’s so many outside factors (HiB is probably absolutely meaningless for evaluating the model, for example)
However, let’s notice that the HiB has turned from being not so much “Pay What You Want” as it is “Pay What You Want with massive pressure and incentives to pay above value X.” That probably indicates something.
18/03/2012 at 18:24 Baines says:
Indeed. That was an issue that really came to light for people when Internet auctions caught on. People would decide what the most they’d spend on an item was, but when someone else bid past that point, they’d raise their own bid in response.
And the flip-side is true as well. If you ask me what the max is that I’ll pay for a particular game, I might tell you a number. But when the game is released at that price, I might or might not buy it. Stuff like Steam sales really hammer this home. There are so many games where I say “I’d buy that immediately if I saw it 75% off”, but then you hit a Steam sales and my mental security kicks in to keep me from spending more money than I can afford to spend, and I start rationalizing away buying it when it actually is 75% off. (And then two months later, I might buy it somewhere when it is 50% off…)
18/03/2012 at 14:22 formivore says:
He is actually claiming that you would make exactly the same profit using pay what you want as you would using monopoly pricing. (Monopoly pricing is the way people usually sell games). You’re right that the idea behind the graph is that you will get more customers with pay what you want than you will with with a fixed price. Tabarrok made a bunch of cute, highly unrealistic assumptions so profits from the two pricing schemes turned out to be exactly the same. It’s just an intellectual exercise but it doesn’t claim to be anything more than that.
18/03/2012 at 13:46 formivore says:
He is assuming that people give half of the consumer surplus, i.e. “what this game is worth to you”, to the seller. This is based on on lab experiments where people choose to split profits 50/50 even when they have the power to give the other guy nothing, because apparently in lab situations people tend not to be total dicks. IMO this is basically falsified by the real world reports people have done for pay what you want schemes. Most people pay like 1$, and its hard to imagine the consumer surplus is really only $2 even for a small game. More likely people are used to buying entertainment where the consumer surplus is much greater than the ticket price, and then when it’s pay what you want they will pay an even smaller proportion of their surplus. Buying a product isn’t ruled by the same social norms as the 50/50 split in the dictator game Tabarrok is basing this on.
The graph is a neat little exercise but no more than that and I would hardly take it as the last world on pay what you want.
18/03/2012 at 12:28 Chris D says:
I think Tom Jubert misses the point somewhat. I think he’s right in that narrower boundaries make for more interesting conversations but the problem is that however you slice it “Art” is still too big a category to be useful for that purpose anyway.
To use the example he gives: Schindler’s List vs Men in Black. Schindler’s list is a more affecting portrayal of the holocaust but Men in Black is funnier. To take another example: Monty Python Comedies. Well Holy Grail made me laugh more but Life of Brian deals with issues of faith better while also still being pretty funny. Even narrowed down to that level “better” is still a meaningless term unless we have some system for valuing social comment against laughter. Even then, maybe Holy Grail didn’t make you laugh at all.
Basically you only get interesting conversations when you narrow things down to a level way lower than “Is it art?” so stop worrying about it and fi we want more interesting conversations let’s actually ask some more interesting questions.
18/03/2012 at 13:09 Bobka says:
fi we want more interesting conversations let’s actually ask some more interesting questions.
My thoughts exactly. “Is it art?” is a mostly uninteresting question anyway, unless you take it to mean something really specific like “How socially valuable is this?” or “Can we apply art theory to this?”, which is usually not what the people debating the question want to talk about.
18/03/2012 at 13:36 InternetBatman says:
I’m going to go even further and say that I don’t like the concept of Art at all. It seems like an unnecessary and exclusionary way to categorize works of creative expression rather than judging them by their component aspects. I write this knowing that it’s an extreme position.
18/03/2012 at 14:45 LionsPhil says:
I am in favour of this position, especially if it makes people stop fretting over whether games can join the cool polo-neck sweater and rimless glasses club.
18/03/2012 at 16:26 LennyLeonardo says:
Totally agree. “Art” has become loaded with the same intellectualist nonsense as “Literature”. Let’s get rid of them.
18/03/2012 at 16:57 Bobka says:
I wouldn’t say it’s an extreme position – “art” is a really, really vague term, and I think a lot of people would agree it’s not especially helpful when discussing creative works. We could get rid of the word, replace it with something specific to the situation we’re discussing, and probably not lose much at all, if anything.
18/03/2012 at 17:46 TJ says:
I actually agree about the categorisation thing and the uninteresting nature of ‘Is X art?’
Truth is the academic essay on which the posts are based isn’t concerned at all with what is art, only with what might make for a standard through which to judge how aesthetically valuable a work is. I rephrased the question to reflect the way it’s usually posed around these parts.
I’m not so interested in ‘are games art?’ as I am in ‘are games good art?’
18/03/2012 at 19:25 Shuck says:
I’d argue that to call something “art” describes its function on some level, so it’s a useful distinction. The label should not be and is not, a value judgement. To say that it’s “art” is not to say that it’s good (or bad), but can give you a framework for semiotic evaluation.
And I’d argue it isn’t vaguely defined. It’s self-referentially defined, but defined by a great deal of precedent. It’s just that it take a long time to learn where the boundaries of that definition lie, and most people haven’t done so.
18/03/2012 at 12:49 Napalm Sushi says:
That image has been added to my wallpaper cycle. Unfortunately I was listening to Cyanotic’s Medication Generation at the time, which wasn’t the most apt of themes to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFC7apJ6LKY
18/03/2012 at 13:19 Sarlix says:
Uh-oh, Gillen is talking about Skaven again.
18/03/2012 at 18:21 Gap Gen says:
Rats!
18/03/2012 at 13:22 Rii says:
Umm, how about a spoiler warning on that Journey piece?
Now to read up on this Csikszentmihaly fellow…
18/03/2012 at 14:10 Runs With Foxes says:
You walk around a desert. What’s to spoil?
18/03/2012 at 14:29 Rii says:
The name of the desert for a start…
No, really: there are spoilers and the article spoils them.
18/03/2012 at 13:27 Lambchops says:
Wing Commander Saga looks interesting. Never played any of the Wing Commander games (though my earliest gaming memory is watching my Dad playing Privateer) so I don’t get nostalgia for the setting but any chance to dust off the old joystick is surely a chance worth grasping.
18/03/2012 at 15:24 Zenicetus says:
You didn’t miss much with the setting. It was a generic, militaristic space opera that ripped off Larry Niven’s Kzin (big bad space cats) as the alien enemies. The Man-Kzin war stuff written by Niven and others in that universe was much more creative writing, as space opera goes.
But as a computer game, it was a landmark for its time, combining some quasi-RPG elements with cockpit-level fighting to advance the story. I think that was the first time a game offered branching story lines for a game like this. The ending didn’t change much, but there were different ways to get there. You could actually fail a mission and still move forward in the storyline, which is a design that’s still rare in games.
The space combat was very simplistic in the original series, and I’m hoping the Freespace engine brings at least a little more use of tactics into the new version. The devs say speeds will be a bit faster, the fighters a little less maneuverable, and they’re using finite fuel for afterburners. That sounds like an improvement over the original.
I hope this new project turns out well. If it does, then maybe it will encourage one of the major developers to take another shot at this neglected genre.
19/03/2012 at 13:15 bill says:
The setting was generic, and the story wasn’t great. The flight dynamics had no feeling (which might possibly be close to reality in space, but wasn’t fun). But the integration of characters and at least an attempt at story into the shooting was revolutionary at the time. These day’s it’s probably nothing special.
18/03/2012 at 14:48 RedViv says:
More and more articles about this very wobbly, yet deadlocked situation the games industry has driven itself into.
Products aimed at teens, marketed as adult, made by adult teens.
Artsy things that barely fit the definition of “games”, yet want to be that. Games with artful work in them, which are sadly completely neglected.
Publishers speaking of games as services, developers creating them as experiences, consumers demanding very different varieties of toys, the products themselves getting stuck somewhere between those, where nobody is happy, but at least something is sold.
And then there’s the whole meta level where all this comes together, where publishers want critical and commercial success, modelling their ideal view of the industry after the big film business, a place where it’s perfectly acceptable to achieve only one of those, which for the game industry twists and distorts and abstracts everything mentioned up to this point.
It’s a turf-covered mess.
18/03/2012 at 16:35 Reefpirate says:
It’s funny, even after reading your comment I actually am very excited about the state of PC gaming these days and particularly this year.
18/03/2012 at 17:55 RedViv says:
Oh, I see PC gaming as that shining beacon of hope myself. It’s just this somewhat higher number of articles lately that was bothering me.
Anyway, PC: More independent developers, more caring long-time fans, and I can just avoid most of the bothering aspects the big suits try to scourge me with. Someone complaining about a lack of interesting RPGs with new mechanics? Eh, I played Geneforge and the likes.
I hope this Kickstarter business can finally give some power back to bigger teams of developers. Risky route, but worth exploring.
Hear that, Obsidian? I’m still here and patiently putting more money aside for you! Delicious coin, and I don’t give a fling about Metacritic!
18/03/2012 at 17:11 DXN says:
A hot, turf-covered mess.
19/03/2012 at 13:21 bill says:
Heh… I like your comment. It seems we have to choose between adult-teens or suits though…
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18/03/2012 at 15:58 Persus-9 says:
On that “The Dark Side Of Digital Distribution” thing, I’m almost glad they’re doing this because this has been a problem for a long time which people have been ignoring because it hasn’t been used in such and evil fashion before.
If that is the dark side then I think there is a grey side as well which is that patches and updates to games may not take the game in a direction that the player agrees with. Couple of examples from my own experience: ‘Dangerous High School Girls in Trouble’ changed their character art for one I disliked, Terraria changed the spawn rates to make the whole thing far more action centric and damn near ruined the game for me and most famously PopCap changed the dancing zombie on all Steam copies of PvZ (even the ones with automatic updates turned off) by replacing it with PvZ: GOTY edition.
These are aesthetic choices but the result was still that single player games that I bought and were enjoying were made less enjoyable to me and there was nothing I could do to get the old game back. I think there should be a campaign to get developers to make all patches of single player games optional and all older versions of the game should be available. If a developer or two did that I swear I’d boycott everyone who didn’t. It isn’t too much to ask not to have our single player games changed against our will. We gamers have essentially sleep walked into a situation where the creator has the right to wreck our games.
Funny to call it ‘the dark side’ since we’ve essentially walked into George Lucas’ dream world where he could delete every copy of ‘Return of the Jedi’ that didn’t include his latest butchering of the end sequence. We’ve surrendered all protection against rogue creators making retroactive changes and nobody seems to care. It is awful.
18/03/2012 at 16:34 DXN says:
Jubert’s attempt to tie aesthetic value to a specific set of criteria is only partial, so it’s only partially wrong and meaningless.
Simply calling an artwork beautiful is no longer sufficient justification; we can now explain clearly the real features of the work which promote this response.
Jubert certainly can’t. The distinctions he draws between Men in Black and Schindler’s list are purely arbitrary. The statement “Schindler’s List has greater power-to-produce feelings of beauty in its viewers” is still completely dependent on the viewer.
18/03/2012 at 17:49 Reefpirate says:
So ultimately it’s wrong and meaningless to discuss art in any sort of critical way? A lump of turd is artistically of equal value to Schindler’s List or Men in Black? I think this whole ‘it’s all about what YOU feel’ is the most boring type of cop-out comment you can make about art.
18/03/2012 at 18:17 Bobka says:
So ultimately it’s wrong and meaningless to discuss art in any sort of critical way?
That seems like a strawman. Just because there might not be objectively true standards for the aesthetic quality of art doesn’t mean we can’t discuss the social implications of an artwork, the message that artwork communicates, the way that artwork reflects on the society that created it, the effectiveness with which an artwork uses certain techniques, etc. There is plenty of room for critical discussion without trying to invalidate other people’s aesthetic reactions to a work.
18/03/2012 at 20:23 thestage says:
Those very discussions to which you refer devalue the work, or even render it entirely irrelevant
18/03/2012 at 17:57 TJ says:
What I think Hume’s ‘power-to-produce’ achieves is a greater awareness of the fact that aesthetic value, as much as it is subjective, isn’t just something random that floats around in the ether. It’s very real, and it’s causally related to very objective features of the world. It reminds us, in the end, that “I like this just because” is often not sufficient justification for an aesthetic judgement, and that we oughtn’t assign the same respect to everyone’s judgements. These, for me, are positive and highly explanatory elements of the theory.
Funnily enough, the same ideas presented to the King’s College Philosophy Department usually promote disagreement for the opposite reasons: aestheticians tend to admonish relativism. Seems like I’m too relativist for the academics and too realist for everyone else. Or, perhaps, just not very good at selling these concepts ;-)
18/03/2012 at 17:15 linzhanaa says:
http://redir.is/aSc
18/03/2012 at 17:46 Jahandar says:
The sentimentality over games on disc went away for me when I lost several games to flooding from hurricane Katrina a few years ago. I’m not exactly sure where my Grim Fandango and other discs ended up on their grand surfing adventure, but I hope they had a grand time.
And really, once the install finishes and the game starts, none of that really matters anymore. I’ve also grown to love the virtual trophy case of my steam library as much as the ever-increasing shelf-space that was taken up by dvd boxes. It also has the added benefit of actually being seen by others, and more often by me.
18/03/2012 at 18:13 WLF62 says:
Why do people think that games have to have a story. Game were mean’t to be games. If I want a story than I watch a movie.
18/03/2012 at 18:47 gwathdring says:
Why do people think movies should have a story? Movies are meant to be moving pictures. If I want a story I’ll read a book. Why do people think books should have a story? Books were meant to be pleasing words on a page. If I want a story, I’ll sit around the campfire with grandpa.
People want stories in games because stories are one of the most universal forms of entertainment. They show up everywhere and we are culturally conditioned to appreciate, seek, and tell stories. There’s nothing mystical about it, really. Saying “games are meant to be games” really doesn’t MEAN anything and certainly doesn’t mean that games aren’t meant to have stories. Plenty of fun and awesome games don’t have a narrative to speak of, you’re right, but that doesn’t mean a lot of games aren’t better off, more fun, and more interesting when attached to a narrative. Just like “game” transcends the idea of a story-driven, linear challenge, the idea of “narrative” transcends the idea of a tacked-one, inessential, garbled excuse to shoot things.
18/03/2012 at 19:30 Shuck says:
Very nicely put.
18/03/2012 at 20:18 Chris D says:
Yep.
19/03/2012 at 00:00 InternetBatman says:
Games don’t have to have a story but it’s nice when they have a good one.
18/03/2012 at 18:39 gwathdring says:
I understand the main thrust of “What’s In A Box”, but am a tad confused. How is a “Bland DVD” case different from a came cartridge or a floppy disk? Especially if it requires a disk check: it still has to be kept clean and popped into a sometimes-finicky mechanism for the game to work. And even if it doesn’t, it occupies the same shelf space in the same way with the same cover art and as any jewel case or SNES cartridge, and the DVD rattles pleasantly one the way home. There’s no unexpected swag, but there wasn’t in a lot of old-school games either. Sure it happened, but it wasn’t exactly universal.
18/03/2012 at 19:18 Eddy9000 says:
I’m loath to play another game for a while after being repeatedly kicked in the balls by shitty game endings. ME3 finally broke me after Fallout 3 & New vegas, DX:HR and Call of Pripryat.
I’m not a big gaming authority though, perhaps someone can recommend me some relatively recent narrative driven games that don’t fall to pieces in the last 20 minutes?
18/03/2012 at 19:25 DrGonzo says:
What? New Vegas had a fantastic ending, probably my favourite of recent times. It actually allowed player choice that had different consequences.
Mass Effect 3 I agree though, just got to the end. Fucking points?! This whole thing boils down to fucking points?
18/03/2012 at 20:14 MattM says:
What was wrong with STALKER:Cop’s ending? The story in the game wasn’t as large in scale as the one in SoC, and the escape ending fit nicely.
18/03/2012 at 20:38 Eddy9000 says:
I was pretty underwhelmed by the explanation for the crash, but yeah I concede that a game about staying alive doesn’t need much more of an ending. Probably would have been better without the whole ‘moving anomaly’ thing and just gone for a heli crash – enemies that want to kill the crew – rescue and escape end. I think the ME3 one probably suffered in a similar (but much more extreme!) way, all people really wanted was to defeat the reapers, why fill it full of incongruent and unnessacary rubbish!
18/03/2012 at 20:11 Eddy9000 says:
Funnily I liked the actual ending of the NV main game, but thought the Lonesome road DLC ending was just confusing!
I’ve decided that ME3 ends when Shepard gets blown up, and after that I’ve invented my own ending that he dies, but records of his actions get sent to all the prothean beacons around the galaxy by the memory shard that the Prothean guy gives him. There is a lengthy cutscene which shows the alliance getting torn apart by the reapers, including moving deaths of his crew. Fast forward 50’000 years when an entirely new set of galactic races use what they learned about Shepard combating the reapers through the records in the beacons to defeat them. From watching his struggle to get people to accept the reapers they are taken seriously and prepared for much earlier. If renegade one race takes it upon themselves to become the strongest possible by dominating the other races, if paragon all the races work together. If Geth are befriended AI’s work with organics, if destroyed AI’s are strictly controlled so no AI/ organic wars weaken them. The reapers are then defeated through Shepards legacy. THE END
I have never before had to make up my own ending for something in order to validate the rest of the narrative, but here we are, thanks bioware.
19/03/2012 at 01:47 Hematite says:
Huh, actually your ending kinda makes me feel like I should play ME3. That’s the ending I’d like for the story of ME1.
19/03/2012 at 19:03 Acorino says:
Well, I made up my own ending for Pathologic, one I was very sure the game was heading towards to. The real ending left me so underwhelmed I just had to fabricate something in my mind so I didn’t feel like I just wasted a week of my time playing this whole goddamn broken mess.
18/03/2012 at 23:10 Skabooga says:
The RPS hivemind have expressed their general disappointment with game endings, so you are not alone there. Hell, Jim even did a post asking for examples of games with good endings, so you may find something here:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/08/02/rps-asks-what-is-the-best-game-ending/
19/03/2012 at 00:25 Eddy9000 says:
Thank you for that, perfect!
18/03/2012 at 19:23 DrGonzo says:
No, a box is no better. It’s a construct of your brain. The game is the only important bit, the data. The rest is imaginary and shallow, and contributing to lower standards in our society. It allows brands to get away with horrific treatment, and over pricing things. It’s absolute bullshit that should be easy to see through. It scares me a lot to be honest that other people value this stuff.
18/03/2012 at 20:11 Fiatil says:
I don’t really know where to put this, but I have to put it somewhere because it makes me happy. On the subject of Neo X-com:
“The separate PC UI will be part of that. The XCOM: Enemy Unknown screenshots that have been released so far have shown lots of Xbox controller command prompts, we asked if the PC build would use a similar system.
“No, no, no. Nooo. Oh man, no. I wouldn’t do that to you, are you kidding me? No,” he said. That’s six noes there, folks. “
18/03/2012 at 23:24 Dreforian says:
The presentation of the photos on Arno Raps’ website made me immediately think of in-game screen shots. Once the full sized photo loaded in I couldn’t help but feel like I was looking at screens from a Myst-like game. Are there any (successful) first person adventure games in this day and age that don’t employ this sort of fixed artistic presentational style?
19/03/2012 at 00:48 mendel says:
“Oil on canvas” isn’t art, it’s an art form. Nowadays pretty much everything can be an art form, so computer games certainly are: there’s enough in them for artists to express themselves with. It makes no sense to debate “are computer games art”, but we need to decide whether a specific computer game is art, and if so, whether it is good art or bad.
My touchstone for this is that artists must see (some aspect of) the world in a new way, and communicate this vision through their work. Hence, we value originality in art, and do not value art that is merely affirmative, i.e. confirms the view of the world that we already have. (To do: distinguish the fine arts from science.)
So, a vanilla formula one racing simulator? Not much of a work of art.
The umpteenth “click on stuff to blow it up” title? Probably no masterpiece.
A game that makes me exercise my mind in novel ways? Yeah, I’d call that art.
19/03/2012 at 02:26 Lokik says:
For some reason the One Must Fall 2097 theme music felt like the best choice for that picture. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdVnKYcYi3g
19/03/2012 at 04:19 jrodman says:
The only meaningful improvement I can see to ‘digital distribution’ is to require that users have full control over they do and do not wish to update the shit they paid for. A quality channel would allow users to comment and discuss what has changed on update, and provide a clean method to retain older versions they’d already used and return to them as desired.
Why steam doesn’t ALREADY work like t his is a real black mark on Valve.
19/03/2012 at 05:49 Thiefsie says:
As an Architect, Lebbeus Woods is a great philosopher and inspiration to myself and my work personally. He is one of the great thinkers, deconstructivist in my mind, spewing intellect relevant not only to architecture but many other fields, not the least which gaming (or gaming environments?) could at least steal some ideas from.
More here: http://lebbeuswoods.wordpress.com/
19/03/2012 at 13:04 bill says:
All that effort on Wing Commander? I really wish they’d made a decent Tie-Fighter sequel instead. I wonder if it’ll keep the horrible flight physics.