By Nathan Grayson on April 11th, 2012 at 9:00 pm.
I suppose there’s always a catch. On the upside, Namco Bandai’s officially given in to our appropriately tough-as-nails, stubble-faced Internet petition, and Dark Souls: Prepare to Die Edition has been pegged with an August 24 release date. By and large, it’s a port about as straightforward as a monster whose single, child-like aspiration in life is to brutally maul you, but it’ll have two new treats in tow. Well, OK, one of them – new bosses – is a treat. The other is GFWL. I’m hoping, of course, that it’s an in-game manifestation of Microsoft’s much-maligned “service” that’ll supplant the current final boss. It’ll hurl login errors, connection drops, and convoluted menus at us, and we’ll stab it to death – just like I’ve always fantasized. I suppose, though, that it wouldn’t be Dark Souls without some hair-pulling punishment. Take an all-too-brief glimpse at some of the new content in a trailer after the break.
Looks nice, huh? Shame it’s going to be burdened by GFWL, which – while highly obnoxious and certainly worthy of discouragement – shouldn’t be the sole reason droves of people steer clear of a wonderful game. So, anyone up for another petition?
11/04/2012 at 21:01 deadstoned says:
New Petition to have GFWL removed has started 600 sigs in 30mins :)
http://www.change.org/petitions/namco-bandai-and-from-software-release-dark-souls-pc-edition-without-games-for-windows-live#
Edit: Now over 20,000+ in a few days O_o. Keep signing to make it clear GFWL should never be considered for any game. This should force other publishers to reconsider their positions as well.
11/04/2012 at 21:08 Koshinator says:
GFWL.. just why….
signed.
12/04/2012 at 02:22 Sparkasaurusmex says:
This is broken.
http://goodexperience.com/tib/
12/04/2012 at 02:48 cassus says:
I guess they get some money for being a GFWL game, and they are probably afraid they’ll make about 240£ in sales, total, on the pc because of piracy and the fact that a LOT of pc gamers already bought it on the PS3 (lots have both.) I don’t know how GFWL works, but I believe MS gives away some $ to people who decide to add that crap to their games.
12/04/2012 at 02:57 swebjh44 says:
http://www.wp3.pl/321sd/Classic Wired Game Controller for Nintendo GameCube NGC and Wii
12/04/2012 at 05:26 thebigJ_A says:
Lots of people bought in on the 360, too. I picked it back up last week and the multiplayer aspect on the xbox is still going strong.
11/04/2012 at 21:13 Duckee says:
I do condone the fact that this petition tries to get rid of GFWL, but the way the letter is worded and the fact that it wants Steam in place of it is a bit bewildering. Now, I hate GFWL as much as my neighbour and I love steam and its services, but I find that the petition should not make this suggestion. It should just be against GFWL, and then leave the stage to allow a healthy debate to occur on what to do instead.
Please, edit your post so people are aware that if they sign the petition you have linked to they will be supporting the Steam platform in its stead (in case some people do not read the letter)
11/04/2012 at 22:41 povu says:
I’m not too happy with the wording either. Especially the ‘Steam or no sale’ bit, that just sounds too demanding.
11/04/2012 at 22:54 alpha nexus says:
I agree with you, I don’t like the petition suggesting to them to use Steamworks. Let’s just tell them that we don’t like GFWL and have them figure out how to deal with it.
12/04/2012 at 00:17 Bonedwarf says:
Better to offer an option than do what you said and have them go “Hey! Ubisoft did that always on thing. Let’s do that!!!”
GFWL is a deal breaker. I’m done running laps around these idiots. Do it sensibly, or not at all.
12/04/2012 at 00:09 Zelius says:
I don’t understand why developers can’t make seperate versions for whichever digital distribution service they sell the game on.
Why not make a GFWL version as well as a Steamworks version? And no, this does not mean bundling GFWL on Steam. That would just be silly.
12/04/2012 at 00:47 MadTinkerer says:
Because you would have to maintain two different codebases. It would basically require doubling your Q&A budget.
With software development, bugs can show up anywhere, anytime, or anyhow, and one “minor” change to fix anti-aliasing issues on someone’s graphics card can break the game’s inventory system. Or maybe you tweak a combat move so that it takes 0.0001% longer to pull off and suddenly no one has any clothes on and putting things back the way they were doesn’t fix it. Why? Well congratulations, “why” is the reason you’re not going home today until you find out.
If you maintain two different versions of something, for testing purposes you might as well have two completely separate projects. If someone were to maintain a GFWL version and a Steamworks version, they will have different bugs show up because they are effectively different programs. Oh dear, suddenly every guard in the world wants to kill you whenever you play for at least 5.37 hours on the Steamworks version and it doesn’t affect GFWL. Why? Well congratulations, now you need to make sure it’s 100% fixed in both versions before you go home.
12/04/2012 at 04:41 malkav11 says:
They do this occasionally. For example, Kingdoms of Amalur has two versions, one on Steam, and one everywhere else. I -think- the other one forces Origin, but I’m not 100% sure.
12/04/2012 at 09:28 urughak says:
I wont be buying if it has GFWL. Made the mistake of buying Bulletstorm on last Christmas Steam sale. Lo and behold it installed GFWL and I spent 5 days trying to get it to work. Steam support is shit. Always heard how customer friendly they are. That’s BS as well. Refused to refund money even tho I wasn’t able to play and I contacted them within a few days as well as refusing to escalate ticket to somone who could. All over email since there’s no phone numbers to call. Steam sucks now IMO. As much as I hate Steam tho? GFWL is worse.
12/04/2012 at 15:02 HothMonster says:
I agree steams customer service is shit, but how is it their fault that GFWL is a broken piece of garbage and won’t let you play a game?
12/04/2012 at 00:30 theleif says:
Agreed.
I have no love whatsoever for GFWL, and I do like Steam, but I can’t sign a petition that says Steam or no sale.
Vendor monopoly, (unless for public services) are never a good thing.
12/04/2012 at 08:17 Sian says:
By the sound of these comments, the wording has been changed:
“We recommend Valve’s Steamworks in place, as this DRM is much easier to use, less intrusive, more reliable, and more accepted among PC gamers. Please reconsider the use of GFWL, or offer the game on both services.”
I can’t find any mention of “Steam or no sale” at all, in any case. I only just saw it, so I’m probably not looking at the original wording.
12/04/2012 at 09:40 Khemm says:
Steam reliable? Are they kidding? Steam community goes down once, twice a week at least, and Steam’s server stability is horrendous. Try playing Shogun 2 or Dawn of War Retribution, it’s a nightmare.
12/04/2012 at 16:41 RavenGlenn says:
I don’t know what Steam you are using Khemm, but it’s been nearly perfectly reliable for me over many, many years. I’d say 99.99+% reliable. I can play my games when I want without fear. I can’t even remember a time where I wanted to play a game and couldn’t because of some service interruption.
12/04/2012 at 18:47 HothMonster says:
His internet sucks which is of course Steams fault.
But when he said community goes down I believe he meant the forums which does go down for 10-15 minutes all the time. It also amuses me to know he must be trolling the shit out of those forums.
12/04/2012 at 14:55 Duckee says:
“but for a lot of customers it’s Steam or no sale.”
11/04/2012 at 21:19 Nameless1 says:
Signed.
WTF.
11/04/2012 at 21:24 db1331 says:
It would be great if this petition got more sigs than the original “Bring Dark Souls to PC” petition. That might get the message across.
12/04/2012 at 01:17 FakeAssName says:
that a bunch of addicted asshats are throwing a tantrum?
… yeah, I’d say that they are getting the message loud and clear.
12/04/2012 at 03:03 PopeJamal says:
I can’t help but agree:
“I want a fucking pony! Now! Right this instant!”
“What am I supposed to do with that brown monstrosity? I want a WHITE pony. A WHITE ONE! With a bow, and a pink saddle! NOW!!!1111111!”
Seriously, they do US a favor by sticking their necks out and porting it for our platform of choice instead of telling us to bugger off, and now you complain because they’re not using your favorite brand of ketchup in the cafeteria. You do realize that there’s a very good chance that GFWL is an artifact of them porting over from the Xbox 360 version, don’t you? But why would you notice that when you’re too busy complaining about the color of the water fountains in the lobby.
And then we wonder why people think we’re a bunch of elitist, ungrateful assholes.
Now let’s pitch a fit because they’re not doing a Linux version…with a collectors figurine…Ingrates…
12/04/2012 at 03:24 Phantoon says:
“Do us a favor”
What? They want your money. It’s not a favor. They’re expecting you’re going to buy it.
12/04/2012 at 03:34 db1331 says:
Um, what? I don’t want it to use GFWL because GFWL rarely ever works. I’ve had it nuke my saves, and I can’t even play RE 5 co-op with a friend (the whole reason we bought the game) because GFWL errors out when we try to join up.
So to use your pony analogy, I’m not upset about not getting the color pony I wanted. I’m upset that the pony I got only has three legs, and just lies on the ground wallowing in its own piss and shit instead of letting me ride it around.
12/04/2012 at 04:08 ThatGuy says:
I’d say it’s more akin to a child begging their parents for a year for a pony, saying they’ll even pay for it as long as they can have it, then the parent finally caves and goes through the ordeal of figuring out how the hell you look after a pony and what it needs to live.
After this, the parent finds a pony, locks it in this incredibly confusing box with an incredibly strong lock and using a key made of wafer the child must unlock the box, and if the key inexplicably breaks or just outright doesn’t work, the pony is eviscerated, and the parent then removes the childs pocket money for the next few years to pay for the pony mist the child bought.
Everybody is grateful for the port, and extra content is fucking brilliant, but GFWL should never be resorted to. The only games I own with it are games I was not aware used it.
Having said all that, I will still be buying it, but I do so hope they change their stance with GFWL. I want my pony, eviscerated or otherwise.
12/04/2012 at 07:14 phylum sinter says:
I’ve only seen severe problems with GFWL on cracked games, or computers that have cracked version of games that have GFWL.
12/04/2012 at 08:53 chackosan says:
Well, I’ve only ever seen GFWL problems on purchased games (Dawn of War 2, Arkham City). They didn’t quite break the game, but made it a major chore to get it working in the first place.
12/04/2012 at 12:34 beekay says:
I’m not sure you understand analogy.
What’s happened here is more like a country’s government announcing that human development indicators in the country are the highest in the entire world, and to celebrate, they’ll be distributing free uranium pellets from the sky.
The first thing is excellent! … or would be, if it didn’t happen in exactly this way.
12/04/2012 at 14:47 aepervius says:
Favor ? Ingrate ? Why not throw an entitled here to complete the picture ?
We are BUYING a product. Feedback is given by potential consumer, producer can ignore that feedback and lose some sales. That’s capitalism and “informed sales” between consumer/producer on which our economy are based. All those talk of entitlement and whatnot by tossers, completely miss that over. That has nothing with being ingrate or whatnot.
Seeing how much lately in forums space / game blog / magazine such “entitlement / ingrate” post seem to crop up , I am guessing a lot of you don’t even understand either how capitalism is supposed to work , informed sales or even what “sense of entitlement” really means and use it in place where it does not begins to belong to.
Bottom line is : feedback was given to the producer : we don’t want GFWL. Now they can ignore it for example, lose some sale, and we the buyer are now aware of the DRM and can do an informed choice whether we want the game or not. There is nothing much beyond that.
13/04/2012 at 02:07 Savagetech says:
I’d rather get *NO* Dark Souls on PC than have Namco release the game with an asinine and broken online component. It’s going to hurt their sales and discourage them from releasing more games on PC.
11/04/2012 at 21:28 Valvarexart says:
But I don’t like Steam. I don’t want it to be Steamworks. Why ask for a lesser evil?
11/04/2012 at 21:55 _PixelNinja says:
Dark Souls: Prepare to Lose Your Saves Edition
12/04/2012 at 08:56 Milky1985 says:
Werern’t all of the “lost saves” stuff from things like batman patched out by the game developer.
I.E. The game developer was doing it wrong and using the wrong commands/features, not GFWL?
11/04/2012 at 21:56 ThatGuy says:
…because it’s the lesser of two evils? I personally don’t mind Steamworks as I use Steam a lot and seem to be one of the lucky few who haven’t fallen on hard times with their offline mode, but I can 100% understand the complete no DRM stance.
But it’s like the difference between a swift kick to the gonads and a gunshot to the knee. I’d go for the swift kick, despite my reservations about both. No DRM would be amazing, but nowadays it’s just not going to happen unless GOG has more impact (which I really hope they do, TW2 with no DRM is something else, effortless and I love it).
11/04/2012 at 23:11 HothMonster says:
The thing that bothers me in these arguments is that steam isn’t by default DRM. There are games that you can buy on steam and launch through the games .exe without steam running. Including steamworks DRM on a steam game is a devs choice as is any other DRM they want to put on. But sometimes steam is merely a store and a game has no DRM even if it is on steam.
11/04/2012 at 23:28 Mistabashi says:
Yeah, at some point people started saying “Steam is a DRM” and everyone started believing it.
As for this petition, I’m afraid it’s probably a lost cause, if they’re advertising it as a GfWL game then they’ve already signed the contract, they can’t just change their minds on a whim.
11/04/2012 at 23:33 Khemm says:
All Steamworks games are DRM’d. Just because a few (mostly small indie) games have Steamworks SUPPORT (like LA Noire and Batman on Steam) doesn’t doesn’t change anything. When you take advantage of Steamworks, you have to use Stem DRM, too.
11/04/2012 at 23:52 HothMonster says:
Khemm, that is not true.
EDIT: Old news but ill leave this here anyway http://imgur.com/gEgah because it proves all you bitches wrong :b
11/04/2012 at 23:55 rareh says:
By definition steam is DRM.
11/04/2012 at 23:57 Alexrd says:
What? Steam is DRM by default, there is no argument there. And of course it’s the devs choice, the same way they can choose GfWL if they want to.
I won’t sign that childish petition. First, because it’s a stupid Steam apologist petition (and Steam is less intrusive? Last time I checked, being dependable of third party servers and making you install a third party software is very intrusive). And second, with GfWL at least there is a chance that it doesn’t make you dependable of an internet connection to install and play a game that you legally paid for.
12/04/2012 at 00:14 HothMonster says:
By definition steam is a store. If you can buy a game on steam and then launch it through the exe with steam closed there is no drm. While it is not the majority case it is an option devs have. If you are arguing that is drm the gog is drm, hell then best buy is drm and credit cards are drm.
I understand most games on steam use steamworks drm or another drm but that is not a requirement to use steamworks or be on steam.
I am also not arguing that saying get rid of gfwl and replace it with steam makes any sense. It should just say get rid of gfwl.
The fallacy that anything on steam is automajically drmed just annoys me. Steamworks is a multi-faceted API. DRM is one option that is available when using the API but is not a requirment to use the other parts of the API.
12/04/2012 at 08:58 apocraphyn says:
Steam is, in 99% of cases, DRM. Sure, there are times when they don’t tie the programs into Steam – remember the brief period where Skyrim wasn’t leadened down with Steam’s shackles? Ah, that was a wonderful time. But that’s not the norm.
It is the lesser evil between itself and GFWL, but it’s still an evil. The people who made that petition are only hurting themselves by tying themselves to Steam – I would have considered signing if it weren’t for the mention of it, and I’m sure many others would have, too.
12/04/2012 at 16:48 RavenGlenn says:
I’ve never understood the hate for Steam some folks have. In most cases, I can only come to the conclusion that the person just refuses to have to sign up for anything, kicking and stamping their feet in protest.
I’ve been using it for quite a long time, and pretty much buy all my PC games through it at this point. It’s a hell of a lot more convenient than having a mound of PC boxes, not being able to find my damn discs, having to change discs everytime I want to play something, having to track down my CD keys, etc. Not to mention the massive sales and cheaper prices, linked together with friend support and chatting in-game.
I have 198 games on my Steam account and will continue to buy more with no fear that I’m somehow getting screwed. I’ve been having a grand, secure, reliable time for years now.
GFWL is an entirely different ballgame. That service just plain bites. You can’t login half the time, or get kicked. Hell, sometimes it just plain refuses to launch or load or work at all on a system. The whole thing is an archaic and terrible system that has no place still being used.
12/04/2012 at 08:27 Wisq says:
Because if we don’t suggest they use Steamworks, they’ll undoubtedly manage to choose something even worse than GFWL, like Gamespy. Murphy’s Law and all that.
12/04/2012 at 00:18 Luciphear says:
I rarely sign these types of things, but this one I did. It’s for the game’s own sake. GFWL is a death sentence… GoG, Origin, Steam, Direct2Drive, anything is better than GFWL..
Anyway. Signed.
12/04/2012 at 09:19 Ny24 says:
I really appreciate GFWL. Gonna get me some achievements! ;)
12/04/2012 at 12:54 Arnulf says:
I can understand the resistance.
On the other hand Dark Souls needs a multiplayer component. That From Software chose a system that’s already there and have probably used in a similar form for the X360 version is weighing much more. Also: achievements.
GFWL may not be ideal, but it’s almost on par with Steam now (it’s changed through the last iterations). I prefer GFWL over Origin any day (or GameSpy for that matter).
What I’m more concerned about is that they added content. As a console only player I’d be pissed about that now.
12/04/2012 at 16:02 Slaadfax says:
I think a lot of people would be more okay with GFWL if they just fixed the save corruption thing, and maybe streamlined the idiotic updating process. It is *NOT FUN* to lose anywhere between 30-60 hours of your gameplay just because for some reason they decide the save games which are still *actually on your hard drive* are just not good enough anymore.
11/04/2012 at 21:01 dangermouse76 says:
Can GFWL be effectively removed or is it a total ass hat to do ?
11/04/2012 at 21:30 Fwiffo says:
It depends on what functionality the game uses. In Fallout 3, for example,it could be completely bypassed, but most games with online features are lumbered with it.
11/04/2012 at 21:54 Vorphalack says:
Fallout 3 remains the only GFWL game I have bought since Bioshock for that very reason. Unless someone can come out with a similar disable, I wont be touching Dark Souls with a 10 foot pole. Was really looking forward to this as well, not gonna gamble £35 on a game that might not even run.
11/04/2012 at 21:55 HothMonster says:
Yeah, for instance BatmanAC & AA single player game saves are encrypted and then decrypted when signing into GFWL
11/04/2012 at 22:10 Heliocentric says:
XLiveless removes live’s hold over saves for GTA4 and episodes.
http://www.gtaforums.com/index.php?showtopic=388658
11/04/2012 at 23:12 HothMonster says:
Thanks for the heads up. Does using it effect your ability to play online?
12/04/2012 at 00:37 DXN says:
I presume GfWL will be used for the multiplayer aspects of the game, which are pretty important but not necessarily essential. So,if you can do without them, I’m sure a GfWL-removal hack will be popping up at some point.
12/04/2012 at 03:48 DK says:
The original doesn’t HAVE GFWL, so it’s about “is it a hassle to remove”. It’s about WHY THE FUCK would you implement it in the first place.
12/04/2012 at 12:07 adonf says:
@DK The original has Xbox Live. GFWL is the PC version of XBL, I suppose that it’s very simple to port from one to the other, maybe as simple as hitting the ‘Compile’ button.
11/04/2012 at 21:03 ZIGS says:
Maybe GFWL is supposed to be one of the new bosses?
11/04/2012 at 21:24 DiGi says:
Hehe, epic :-D
“Download game update”, “Download GfWL update (next level is for x64 OS)”, “Your country is not supported” and hardest “You just lost your saves. AGAIN.”
11/04/2012 at 21:24 Suits says:
Thanks for relieving me of misfortune for a couple of seconds with that comment.
11/04/2012 at 21:04 Ed123 says:
Welp, there goes my purchase.
11/04/2012 at 22:56 Amun says:
Mine too.
11/04/2012 at 21:04 Suits says:
Where does it say GFWL?
11/04/2012 at 21:14 El_Spartin says:
Their facebook page has a picture of the box art w/ GFWL on the top. Needless to say all the comments on that picture are fairly upset.
11/04/2012 at 21:23 Suits says:
Alright thanks, I guess this is the one http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/564618_305259969547054_119869331419453_757375_113075776_n.jpg
12/04/2012 at 09:03 Milky1985 says:
You realise that a hell of a lot of games for PC have that at the top now right? Reguardless of if they actually have GFWL on them.
12/04/2012 at 09:07 Inigo says:
They say “Games for Windows”, not “Games for Windows LIVE”.
11/04/2012 at 21:04 derbefrier says:
Damn, still gonna buy it though. I have never had any issues with gfwl other than ot being annoying, but I was an xbot for years so maybe I have just gotten used to it. Kinda sad though now everyone will pirate it and we will never see another dark souls game on pc again.
11/04/2012 at 21:05 caddyB says:
Good job. Not buying it then.
11/04/2012 at 21:32 Khemm says:
Thanks for no help.
11/04/2012 at 21:42 Unaco says:
Maybe… this will be for the best. We want their games on PC, yes. But, I would think, we want their games done well on PC. We don’t want throw-away ports with no or little consideration given to what gets tacked on to them, and what options and PC specific stuff we get. They know there’s a market, clammering for their game on PC (the first petition told them that). If they see how that market evaporates when they make decisions like this, maybe (hopefully) they’ll stop making decisions like this.
If they do their PC versions shoddily, then they won’t get far. Do them well though and get it right, and people will be willing to throw their money at them.
11/04/2012 at 21:49 Khemm says:
Capcom uses GFWL and their ports are STELLAR. You’re not making any sense.
11/04/2012 at 21:53 Unaco says:
But, this is coming from Namco… not CAPCOM. CAPCOM may use GFWL and it may be stellar. A whole load more devs/publishers use it and it’s less than stellar. CAPCOM getting it right is no guarantee that Namco/From Software will get it right. Does that make sense?
11/04/2012 at 23:22 pkt-zer0 says:
The online matchmaking part of things in SF4, you know, the thing that actually relies on GfWL? It’s garbage and a major pain in the ass. The rest, sure, it’s pretty good. Would be nice if you didn’t have to suffer through GfWL though.
12/04/2012 at 03:26 Phantoon says:
I’ve never heard anyone praise Capcom’s ports before.
Probably because the ports are bad.
What, did Gaben run your dog over or something?
12/04/2012 at 07:15 Khemm says:
@Phantoon
Dude… stop living in 2006. Just because the last Capcom game you played was RE4 or DMC3 from half a decade ago doesn’t mean you know anything about Capcom’s efforts since 2009. So, please stop saying their ports are “bad”, because you’re misinforming people.
12/04/2012 at 15:04 HothMonster says:
Yes, he is the one spreading misinformation…
12/04/2012 at 16:14 Slaadfax says:
So is this guy both a Games For Windows Live AND Japanese publisher apologist? “Capcom has made great decisions…”
That pretty much says it all. Capcom has been struggling to achieve mediocrity in the last few years. What, did you also think Konami really *did* make a great decision by releasing three Silent Hill games in the same month?
12/04/2012 at 02:49 Pointless Puppies says:
Do you realize both this game and Demon’s Souls are niche titles in the industry? As in, Demon’s Souls was incredibly close to never being released anywhere outside of Japan at all?
Keep those expectations realistic. We’re not talking about EA or Activision, we’re talking about a small dev with a pretty complex online multiplayer component whose backend probably relies a lot on the XBL format. From is a pretty small dev, and if you would’ve told me Namco (the people who are famous for refusing to translate, not port, translate games they already made) told From Software to make a PC version (wat) of Dark Souls (WAT!) based on an internet petition (WAT THE FUCKING FUCK) I would’ve told you you’re out of your mind. Going back and pissing that it’s got GFWL is like having sirloin steak fall out of the sky only for you to loudly complain the silver fork it came with was scratched.
Trust me, I dislike GFWL as much as the next guy, but come on. This is the last studio that we should be demanding they cater to the intricacies of PC development. Let’s save the dignified whining to truly lazy publishers/devs like EA.
12/04/2012 at 03:27 Phantoon says:
Are you talking about FROM, or Namco?
12/04/2012 at 05:09 Pointless Puppies says:
I’m talking about both, really. FROM is a modest developer who makes relatively niche titles even in the console side of the industry and hasn’t done a PC game since King’s Field (though I might be wrong on that one). Namco’s frequently referred to as “Scamco” for their assholish tendencies to be horribly fickle about what games they want to release in what platforms and even when the games are done they wrinkle their nose at translating for specific regions for no good reason. The publisher side of the industry laughs off internet petitions, but for some reason Namco decided to roll with it, and had FROM (who, again, hasn’t done a PC game in a very long time), do a quick PC port in a few months. This alone is really beyond the wildest dreams of port beggars everywhere.
It’s also important to note that the Souls games in particular are a series where the adjective “barely” was used multiple times. FROM barely had Demon’s Souls published for regions outside Japan, they barely kept the servers of that game alive for several years (they just announced today they’re finally shutting down for good at the end of May :’( ), the sequel was barely greenlit, and now it got barely ported over to the PC. And yet the games are fucking fantastic and deserving of every praise they get. They really shouldn’t be held to the same “GFWL=NO SALE!!!” standards that we hold with, say, EA, who definitely do have the power to rewrite netcode at will but choose simply not to because they want to save a couple of bucks. What we’re getting with Dark Souls are really extraordinary circumstances, it’s silly to dismiss this ENTIRE effort simply because FROM chose to use the online API that’s easiest for them. I say they should totally use it if it means they get to put out the game on the PC.
12/04/2012 at 05:43 Wisq says:
There are, unfortunately, some of us who have had such terrible experiences with GFWL — often just for singleplayer games — that we will never go near it again.
To extend your analogy: sirloin steak falls from the sky … but it happens to be rancid. Dream becomes nightmare due to one small change.
12/04/2012 at 07:20 Khemm says:
@Wisq
Except the problem with many people is they tried GFWL years ago and keep repeating arguments which might have been true a year or two, but aren’t anymore. It’s like saying “my experience with Steam was so bad with Half Life2 I refuse to use that service anymore”.
I’m not saying some people aren’t having problems even today, it’s unfortunate some oddities still happen, but until someone shows me some statictics explicitly showing that the number of people having troubles with Origin or GFWL is higher than the legion of folks constantly having issues with Steam, I’ll keep saying Origin/GFWL hate is blown out of proportion.
12/04/2012 at 11:30 Xan says:
@Khemm First impressions are important.
12/04/2012 at 15:10 HothMonster says:
@khemm
where are the stats that show legions of people are constantly having problems with Steam? You had problems with steam so are quick to accept the fact that everyone else’s problems with steam are current and legion. You have never had problems with GFWL therefore everyone else is either stupid or making shit up.
I have had steam since its inception and never had any problems worth speaking of. I have had 3 gfwl games and they have all been a pain in my ass and the last one erased 60 hours worth of saves. So I am done with it. I manage to not call everyone who doesn’t like steam a liar or an idiot though.
These are not year old dead problems people are talking about. Save game deletion still happens, update problems still happen, it still constantly links to broken/dead webpages, and customer support is still may as well be non-existent.
12/04/2012 at 17:39 Slaadfax says:
Yep, save game decryption corruption is still an issue, as well as clunky interface, the same updating issues, and of course GFWL customer service remains pretty much nonexistent.
Where are these miraculous improvements?
On other subjects: it’s actually very beneficial to release niche titles on digital distribution platforms. The ability to price them far below retail and have mega-sales means that there’s a large potential for audiences to purchase and try it out without spending the 40-60 dollars.
Not needing fabrication of materials and shipping also cuts down massively on the cost of distribution as well.
However, if the game gets a 70 on Metacritic because the port is bad and the multiplayer doesn’t function because of poor netcode, then the game will *definitely* not sell as well as it could have otherwise.
11/04/2012 at 22:40 caddyB says:
I was very excited to get it on PC, but I don’t want to throw money on them when I’m not sure how good it will run on my computer because of GFWL. I had a lot of problems with that piece of borderline malware and I won’t touch it. Same goes for Origin.
11/04/2012 at 21:06 pkt-zer0 says:
Where did they say it was GFWL? Can’t find a source for that. Kind of crappy, if true. GFWL’s terrible reputation will do more harm to the game than its actual lack of features and poor implementation, though, I’d say.
11/04/2012 at 21:30 Khemm says:
GFWL and Origin’s reputation is a direct result of a vocal group of Steam fanatics labelling everything that isn’t made by Valve as “crap” rather than the quality of these two services.
They aren’t flawless, but neither is Steam.
11/04/2012 at 21:37 RobF says:
No it isn’t. Stop being barmy.
11/04/2012 at 21:46 ThatGuy says:
Yes because it’s only Valve fans that enjoy retaining saves of games they’ve put fucktonnes of hours into. I suppose frequenters of GFWL games have become accustomed to it and have adopted it as a new difficulty, that random chance of “Does my gamesave still exist?”, a fun past-time for any gamer.
Except Valve fans, apparently. Nailed it in one, Khemm.
11/04/2012 at 22:24 Khemm says:
Because people have TOTALLY not been reporting that Steam Cloud corrupts their saves and some Steam games TOTALLY let you backup saves (example:Space Marine).
12/04/2012 at 07:30 jalf says:
SO your argument is that because there is *one* game on Steam which behaves stupidly, and because of possible bugs that *sometimes* causes you to lose a savegame, that means it’s ok for GFWL to *consistently* lose your savegames in *any* game *all* the time. By design…
Sorry, but you have to be a pretty radical fanboy to see that one.
Besides, I don’t see the relevance of Steam *at all*. We’re not saying “Steam is the solution to all our worries, Steam can do no wrong”. We’re saying “GFWL sucks. In countless ways”. The fact that Steam *also* sucks doesn’t change that at all. Why would “Steam sucks” be an argument for forgiving GFWL its flaws?
12/04/2012 at 09:07 Milky1985 says:
ERM GFWL has not been consistantly losing save games. Please show eviedence for this.
I know batman lost saves, but this was patched out BY THE DEVELOPER.
If something is patched out by the developer then its logical to think that hte developer was doing something wrong in the first sodding place.
Also it was occasionally, i love how much GFWL hate there is that the od case of it happening has changed to constistantly
12/04/2012 at 10:46 Khemm says:
“SO your argument is that because there is *one* game on Steam which behaves stupidly,”
It’s called AN EXAMPLE. I have no idea how to back up my Space Marine saves and there have been reports of new Steamworks games suffering from the same problem – which means the “GFWL doesn’t let me back up my saves” argument will lose its merit soon.
“and because of possible bugs that *sometimes* causes you to lose a savegame, that means it’s ok for GFWL to *consistently* lose your savegames in *any* game *all* the time. By design…”
Biased much? Plenty of people have never had these issues. SOMETIMES Steam fucks something up and SOMETIMES GFWL fucks something up.
12/04/2012 at 15:21 HothMonster says:
Right and after steam fucks up too much for a single person they stop using it. You have no problem with that as you are a steam basher yourself. But if someone has had their fill of problems with GFWL their complaint is invalid and they are being stupid and childish?
As far your warhammer saved game it should be in “\Steam\userdata\10613168\55150\remote” not having local saves in a logical spot is the devs fault though not steams. Though steams cryptic folder tree is their own stupid fault.
11/04/2012 at 21:53 jalf says:
Er, no. I’m not really a fan of Steam, but GFWL is an abomination. It really is a big pile of poop.
Origin is actually a very reasonable service IMO. The client is pretty slick, and unlike GFWL, the service *doesn’t get in your way*.
But GFWL? I have *nothing* positive to say about it.
11/04/2012 at 22:09 NorfTehBarbarian says:
Holy fuck… You’re an idiot.
12/04/2012 at 10:48 Khemm says:
I love you, too.
11/04/2012 at 22:17 gritz says:
Yes, that must be why GOG is struggling so terribly.
11/04/2012 at 22:25 Khemm says:
People on GOG are pretty anti-Steam too, so what’s your argument again?
11/04/2012 at 22:46 caddyB says:
Or it might have something to do with personally having zero problems while running Steam games but lots and lots with the other two.
There’s nothing fanboyish about choosing the stuff that actually works on my personal computer, as a personal decision.
11/04/2012 at 23:46 zakihashi says:
You’re almost right here, GFWL have gotten it’s reputation on it’s own, because it’s pretty half ass’d and unreliable. Origins however, is rabid Steam fanbois fault alone. If you accept Steam you sure has hell must accept Origin, nothing wrong with Origin if you put Steam at it’s side, it probably even got less issues. Like selling you games, but not having cd keys(as steam often do), you’re games er never unreliable that you buy there. Is it got a working offline mode.
I’d rather have Origin then GFWL, and I rather not have Origin nor Steam, sell it on Steam, GWFL, and Origin, but let me buy it on Gamersgate, d2d, Impulse or whatever, without being forced to use Steam or Origin or whatever it is you want to force on people, give me a clean game where I don’t need unessesery things like Steam or GFWL.
11/04/2012 at 23:49 rareh says:
This is 100% true. Glad someone had the guts to call out all the valve fanboys.
I personally had no problems with gfwl or origin, while with steam i had a lot over the years.
Funny when someone says 1 reasonable thing against valve or steam 100 people come with nonsense.
While with other companies u can say any shit u want even if its completely unreasonable.
12/04/2012 at 00:03 MDefender says:
GFWL is a hassle but I’m not getting up in arms over it not going the steam route. Not every game benefits from that treatment, in fact it’s often the opposite that occurs in many small ways.
I’m still just glad I don’t have to cave and buy a PSTriple for this game, really. Saved me the horrid indignity of purchasing overpriced, mostly redundant hardware and being quietly judged by the internet’s malignant, vigilant scrutiny.
12/04/2012 at 07:40 Screamer says:
Overprised? I’d say its probably the best time now to buy a PS3, they are dirt cheap now, and get all the games that never got or ever will get to PC. Uncharted, RDD, Heavy Rain….quite a few that really make it worth it. And of course Dark Souls
12/04/2012 at 09:05 Milky1985 says:
You were doing well until you attributed the bad rep to steam fanatics. Now you just sound (like in all of your posts) like a steam hater who wants to bash steam somehow.
11/04/2012 at 21:06 shiromar says:
I have to ask, Why? It seems obvious to me and my fellow pc gamers that we dont want GFWL yet they still include it, why?
We get nothing out of it does Namco get anything from MS for this?
11/04/2012 at 21:08 CMaster says:
Namco get a system that they can probably plug in in the place of XBL without any notable changes.
11/04/2012 at 21:09 shiromar says:
Batman and the like got GFWL out of laziness? Considering the debacle that was dx11 and deleting saves thanks to GFWL on Batman. I still don’t get why they dont receive clue ; /
12/04/2012 at 19:00 HothMonster says:
No Batman got it because WB uses it on all their games, because they are clueless and stupid. I am sure Rocksteady hates it. Batman doesn’t really need to worry about netcode, its just leaderboards they did it because of WB.
11/04/2012 at 21:11 iDragon says:
Yeah, sadly, it’s probably being done because it’s the cheapest/easiest option, requiring fewest code changes.
11/04/2012 at 21:38 Underwhelmed says:
If I had to make a random guess, it is because it is an existing system, that the original version of the game already used (though we are talking the 360 version) and will serve as a means to keep some semblance of order over the online masses and prevent the rampant cheating and hacking you get with a lot of PC games that allow for anonymous users.
I’m not saying that this was a good choice, GFWL is at best, a bit of a mess.
11/04/2012 at 21:07 MatW says:
Of three GFWL games that I’ve bought, only one has worked properly.
Ironically, Bulletstorm was the only one that went without any trouble.
11/04/2012 at 21:28 Kodeen says:
Of the 4 GFWL games I’ve played, 4 have worked properly.
11/04/2012 at 21:52 rei says:
Of the 1 GfWL titles I’ve bought 1 has worked properly, but it was such a pain in the ass that I will never buy another game that uses the system.
11/04/2012 at 22:27 Adekan says:
I’ve owned 4 games with GFWL.
Grand Theft Auto 4, which at one point had GFWL completely stop working and would not allow me to play the game at all. GFWL then had to be reinstalled to play the game.
Fallout 3 in which I never actually had to log in to GFWL to use ( Thanks Bethesda! )
Dirt 2 which beside the constant annoyance of having to restart my computer to update their useless GFWL software every time I wanted to play, seemingly worked fine.
Dirt 3 which I got for free with my video card and never actually installed because I don’t want to deal with GFWL any longer.
It offers me no services I would ever use, I don’t even own a console so half of the crap they are trying to peddle has no value to me ( If you want people to take your platform seriously, don’t patronize them by making it use everything from the Xbox live system including sharing login/support website ). It is completely devoid of purpose except as extremely obnoxious DRM to me. I will actively avoid titles with GFWL.
12/04/2012 at 07:23 Khemm says:
GFWL has been improved since then, you know? Besides, what OS do you use?
12/04/2012 at 07:27 jalf says:
Improved? How? When? I’ve seen several updates, but none that offered actual *improvements. You’ll have to be more specific.
12/04/2012 at 15:53 pkt-zer0 says:
re: Dirt 2. It uses encrypted savegames, couldn’t manage to get them to load in Win7 after upgrading from WinXP. Fun times.
12/04/2012 at 16:23 HothMonster says:
All the GFWL games encrypt there saves, have to protect the useless gamerscore system after all, when you back up your saved games you also have to back up a cookie that GFWL saves in your appdata folder. If you move that to the new install and sign in with the same profile there is a 80% chance your saves will still work. Ahhh features!
11/04/2012 at 21:07 Stellar Duck says:
And here was be being slightly interested in the game. I’ve no idea about what the game is, but all the constant talk about it made me curious. Looked like something I might enjoy. Not now.
11/04/2012 at 21:09 whexican says:
Dammit…now I have to run a cracked exe to bypass GFWL like I did for Fallout 3.
11/04/2012 at 21:58 HothMonster says:
While that is fine in a SP game like fallout, multiplayer in DS is much more essential.
11/04/2012 at 21:09 allanschnorr says:
I was planning to buy it day one, but if the GFWL part is true, I’ll only buy it for $10 or less.
11/04/2012 at 21:29 FunkyBadger3 says:
You, sir, are killing PC gaming. And are possibly worse than Hitler.
11/04/2012 at 21:41 Stellar Duck says:
Nah, he’s worse. At least Hitler killed Hitler.
11/04/2012 at 22:34 Theon says:
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/486/1286280-guybrush_and_elane_never_pay_more_than_20_bucks.jpg
11/04/2012 at 21:10 alundra says:
Cheer up, they need an expiatory sacrifice in case it fails, they will blame piracy and those evil (and bitchy) PC gamers.
12/04/2012 at 16:48 lordfrikk says:
Exactly what I thought. This situation makes me sad, because while I will probably buy it it’s going to be bogged down by GFWL. Funny how both GTA4 and Batman AA were constantly refusing to log me in and when they did let me in the service was getting disconnected every 5 minutes or so. I so hope to fuckin god they will change their mind.
11/04/2012 at 21:10 Paul says:
I am buying it no matter what because I want more From games on PC, but GFWL still sucks and I still hope they will reconsider. If not, then I at least hope GFWL will somehow works well and will not destroy my saves or something like that.
11/04/2012 at 21:23 Khemm says:
Thanks for being at least partly reasonable instead of behaving like a retard.
11/04/2012 at 21:36 Ganjatron says:
I’ve never had issues with GFWL, and I use an offline account. I also would like to thank you for giving the first level headed remark in here.
11/04/2012 at 23:13 Necroscope says:
I am buying this regardless of GFWL or steamworks or other setup. Worked fine with batman:arkham city and sf4. I’ve no complaints at all. I don’t like intrusive drm that causes the game to load slowly or stutter or crash. That’s quite infuriating. That’s the kind of bullshit I would demonstrate with other PC gamers against and be vocal about it, but I can’t say I’ve had problems myself with GFWL so….I’m buying it and am feeling happy to support the devs.
11/04/2012 at 23:19 Enso says:
Same. I will buy multiple copies if they bring me Armored Core.
12/04/2012 at 02:58 Pointless Puppies says:
Same here. I don’t like GFWL, but it’s a necessary evil. The fact we’re even getting this is nothing short of a miracle, so I don’t know exactly where people are coming from decrying this PC port simply because of GFWL.
11/04/2012 at 21:10 Unaco says:
“Shame it’s going to be burdened by GFWL, which – while highly obnoxious and certainly worthy of discouragement – shouldn’t be the sole reason droves of people steer clear of a wonderful game.”
After the reaction to Epic’s recent announcements about Bulletstorm and its cancelled sequel, I can’t imagine this being said with a straight face… unless it’s followed up by some silence and then “Right guys? Guys… Guys!? Where did you get those pitchforks!?”
GFWL doesn’t put me off… I’ve not encountered it much (Batman AA, FO3 – easily removed/avoided, and Bulletstorm), but it’s never caused me any more grief beyond an extra 5 minutes on install. It’s not great… I’ve never been glad to have it on a game, and I’m kind of confused as to what it actually does… but I’ve never seen it as an abomination. I know many, many people do though… So I feel for them.
However, some of the other news I’ve been hearing (graphics, key binding) has me concerned, worried even, that they aren’t going about this whole port thing as I would like, and I feel we deserve.
11/04/2012 at 21:45 Wild_Marker says:
I used to think like you. Untill I lost my Arkham City save game. 30 hours in. THIRTY. HOURS.
Oh and also, GFWL games can’t be sold on steam in some countries (like mine). I never understood why, it’s really weird, but I know it’s exclusively a GFWL thing. To get Batman I actually had to exchange it via Steam Trade.
11/04/2012 at 21:54 ThatGuy says:
That’s bad, man. I mean I’ve lost more, but Batman was a better game. My GFWL just ate up my Gears of Wars game, the first one back when it was new.
My account doesn’t have it, my code repeatedly informs me it’s used (by me!) and so I can never play it. Still don’t know if it’s a good game or not. 2 sequels later I’d imagine the first was at least competent.
11/04/2012 at 21:51 Archonsod says:
Not only is it clunky as hell, but it has a tendency of demanding you patch the game or quit. Which in itself wouldn’t be so bad, if it wasn’t for the fact that it has a tendency to incrementally patch rather than doing the whole thing at once (although given the download rate it has is only marginally faster than IP over avian carrier that might be understandable).
Install a slightly older game and you’ll spend most of your night waiting for GFWL to update itself, then update the game repeatedly, and then if you’re lucky it’ll actually let you run it. After deleting all your saves and profile because one of the updates rendered older profiles incompatible.
And that’s when it actually works. When it fails, such as say by botching a patch install, your only solution is usually to spend a few hours eradicating all traces of the game and GFWL from your system and go for a reinstall. At which point the cycle begins again …
11/04/2012 at 21:11 QSpec says:
Spoiler alert:
The game won’t sell as well as expected due to GFWL.
Industry uses it as an example as to why they don’t develop for the PC.
11/04/2012 at 21:18 Khemm says:
People who claim they’re not going to buy it were never interested in buying this in the first place, so no big loss here.
Even if it was a Steamworks title, they would say “awesome, will pick it up when it’s 75% off”.
GFWL is not perfect, but it’s not a deal-breaker. To claim otherwise is absurd and reeks of Steam fanboyism.
11/04/2012 at 21:21 Phantoon says:
It is a deal-breaker, and I was going to buy it.
Why are you always so nasty?
11/04/2012 at 21:23 Stellar Duck says:
Look man, Steam is generally highly annoying and the costumer service is a fucking joke. The offline mode as well. I can tolerate it, but it does mean that I don’t buy games at full price if they’re Steamworks. I view it as a reason for me to knock off the price.
I do most of my game purchases on GamersGate or gog.com. (if a GamersGate game has Steam I also wait for a drop.)
But GFWL is even worse, so for me it’s a deal breaker. Annoying as Steam may be, I’ve never had to spend hours and hours figuring out how to make a game run. And it has never eaten my saves.
11/04/2012 at 22:32 Khemm says:
How? Really, how? You must have pirated Windows being a total mess, probably stll use XP, or don’t have GFWL properly installed (NET3.5, Windows Live Essentials installed, Windows Live ID service running), you don’t have ports opened or something along those lines.
GFWL works on all three computers I installed it on with no tinkering.
11/04/2012 at 22:35 Unaco says:
Good for you Khemm. And Steam works perfectly for me, on the 4 PCs I have it installed on… so you must just be using Steam wrong. Right?
11/04/2012 at 22:48 QSpec says:
I just don’t see the point in having an inferior product installed on my computer.
11/04/2012 at 23:00 Stellar Duck says:
Not that you’ll believe it, I’m sure, but I’m running 64 bit Win7 (Ultimate at that, expensive though it was). Ditched XP back in 2008 for Vista and then ditched Vista in 2010 or something. All bought and paid for (though XP and Vista were OEM versions).
And really, why on earth wouldn’t I have updated those pieces of software? And ports open? Really? Since when was that a good reason for something not to work? In any case, they are.
But I guess it’s just me being a pirate. You’d know what I do after all.
Full disclosure: the game that wasn’t working properly was Red Faction Gorilla. And the saves that got eaten was the ones for Arkham City. I believe I’m not alone in having that happen in AC. But I guess we’re all just running pirated XP.
11/04/2012 at 23:23 Khemm says:
@Stellar Duck
Oh don’t be so butthurt now, I’m not accusing you of anything, just wondering if people reporting problems with GFWL have something in common, like Live ID not running.
11/04/2012 at 23:50 Malk_Content says:
Any piece of software that requires me to go online and search for a solution to get it to patch itself is a poor piece of software (Bulletstorm). Any piece of software that after loading up a game, finding I require a patch to continue (to GFWL, not the game) makes me close down the game (reasonable), restart my computer (semi reasonable) reload the game only to find it has applied 1/3 of the patch and I’ll need to do that twice more, is a poor piece of software. Any piece of software that requires me to enter it’s directory folder to find my save games, to move them to a different folder just so it can find them when offline (GTA4) is a shite piece of software. Any piece of software that does this and offers me no additional benefits, not even the guarentee of a good matchmaking system (DOW2, Gotham) really shouldn’t exist.
@ Khemm specifically.
Also note how you are always the first person to bring up Steam in these discussions. All the above are flaws with GFWL that are common with every release that comes laden with it, none of them are me endorsing Steam or being a fanboy. Also I was going to buy the game, despite the fact I already own it on the PS3, purely to encourage the move. GFWL is absolutely 100% a lost sale from me as I will not support a move that is a bad choice for the gamer.
12/04/2012 at 00:17 Stellar Duck says:
@Khemm
“Oh don’t be so butthurt now, I’m not accusing you of anything[...]”
“You must have pirated Windows being a total mess, probably stll use XP[...]”
Nah, no accusations there.
12/04/2012 at 07:28 Khemm says:
@Stellar
FFS, stop it. I’m not a native speaker, I should have written something along the lines of “it might be a result of” instead of “you might/must have”.
People get offended way too easily these days. Internet, sigh.
12/04/2012 at 08:42 Jim9137 says:
The best armor is not the one that can be worn at will, but laden with trains as needed.
12/04/2012 at 10:44 Asuron says:
You seem to have a clear enough understanding of the language to right paragraph after paragraph about why you hate Steam for asinine reasons and to insult people with it.
I find it almost funny how you jump so quickly to hostility and then back off like a scared rabbit when someone calls you on it. Back that up with your hilarious “arguments” about why Steam is bad and why your right about everything you argue for reasons that don’t make sense and it starts becoming actually funny.
If you want to ignore GFWL long and noted history of not working for consumers who try to use it, then what is there left to say to you? You would rather deny reality than face the cold , hard truth of you being wrong
11/04/2012 at 21:29 Farkeman says:
of course it’s a deal breaker , I like my games to work when I buy them…
11/04/2012 at 21:32 daq says:
I’ve had trouble with every single GFWL game I ever played – so yes, it is indeed a dealbreaker for me. I dont much care if it is Steamworks or the like, but I won’t buy a GFWL title. I’d prefer it being on Origin exclusively over GFWL.
11/04/2012 at 21:53 Archonsod says:
Really? Cuz GFWL is a deal breaker for me, and I’d say Steamworks is a deal breaker too. So that’s that theory blown out of the water.
11/04/2012 at 22:00 ThatGuy says:
Do you see everything in black and white? Every post of yours on here regarding DRM has this line, where it’s either like GFWL or be a Steam fanboy.
Not the most mature mindset to take really, is it? Some people tolerate Steam because of deals and handy services, the shitty DRM is just a side-effect, GFWL is just intolerable from every side of the fence with no upsides, and I say that with a fair amount of GFWL titles myself (-1 actually since it decided it didn’t want me to own Gears of War anymore).
11/04/2012 at 22:02 HothMonster says:
Dealbreaker for me. I guess Ill go and pick up a used copy for my netflix box, finally. I got re-excited about this and was going to day 1 purchase.
12/04/2012 at 01:18 zaprowsdower says:
“reeks of Steam fanboyism.”
Good job repeating the same statement OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN in this thread.
12/04/2012 at 02:55 Mordsung says:
GFWL is an objectively inferior set of tools on the PC.
Steam, and even Origin, does everything GFWL does but does them better, with interfaces designed for PC instead of brought over directly from the console.
There is not one thing GFWL does even on par with other similar offerings.
Even taking it’s stability issues completely off the table. Even taking the fact you have to pay MS points to change your online name. Ignoring those two points completely, GFWL is still an inferior system.
The value of their product has diminished due to the use of this inferior system.
This isn’t even opinion. I could put a side-by-side comparison of GFWL’s features beside nearly any similar system and show GFWL to be the inferior of the two.
12/04/2012 at 11:12 Khemm says:
GFWL would be actually awesome if it had the interface from the console – because currently it uses its own.
When GFWL launched, its UI was very fast, intuitive, nice looking – a direct copy of the 360 UI, but it worked perfectly fine. Then in 2007 or so they changed it to this clunky one.
12/04/2012 at 12:36 Mordsung says:
You and I have completely different ideas of what a good UI is.
The 360′s UI, and this comes from someone who worked for Xbox 360 customer support for 3 long, tired years, is a monumental piece of shit.
The new GFWL UI was actually a minor improvement, but it was like a layer of icing on a cake of shit.
Let’s talk about GFWL customer support, considering I sat 2 rows down from these gents, for a moment.
Let’s ignore the fact most of the actual individuals working for GFWL support couldn’t tell you the difference between a router and a modem and go right to the meat. I’m about to give you inside insight to how GFWL support works, as it works somewhat similarly to Xbox support and actually generally hires it’s people directly from the lower tiers of Xbox support.
These people, when faced with a problem, go online to forums, mostly the Steam forums, and basically repackage player solutions as GFWL solutions.
I worked in Xbox 360 Corporate Support, meaning I dealt with either very abused customers, ones on their 4th or 5th console, or important members of the games press and other such people. I, occasionally, got GFWL problems through the corporate support email. I had guy after guy after guy get so frustrated with GFWL support that they’d email advocate@microsoft.com and eventually end up in my court. Most of these problems required about 30 seconds to a minute of me thinking about it, as I was a PC gamer, not a console gamer, I actually knew how a PC functioned.
GFWL is inferior on the end-user side, and it is inferior on the support side. I know the mouth breathers who work for GFWL. I was forced to converse with these people. They’re only a few steps above primates.
12/04/2012 at 16:56 RavenGlenn says:
Dear lord…do you work for GFWL Khemm? That’s about the only reason I can come up with for your vitriolic hate on Steam and overwhelming love and praise for GFWL. The overwhelming majority are in total opposition to you, but you just keep on trucking, don’t you?
12/04/2012 at 17:10 Brun says:
From reading Khemm’s comments (and some comment conversations with him), it seems that he hates Steam so much because he has a slow and/or unreliable internet connection and as a result downloading and installing games with Steam (or Origin, or similar client) is a pain in the ass for him. That, and he resents having to install through Steam even if he buys a retail disk.
No product or service is ever going to satisfy all of its users. Khemm is just one of those edge cases for which Steam doesn’t work too well – through no fault of Khemm’s. But Steam isn’t really at fault either. It works quite well and is (compared to Origin, GFWL, and some forms of UbiDRM) much slicker and less obtrusive.
I, like many others in this thread, would prefer Steam over GFWL. Of course, I would prefer no DRM over Steam, but I’m trying to be realistic here. Namco is a console publisher – the PC is a foreign environment for them and they’re going to have some form of DRM whether we like it or not. Out of all of the DRM I’ve used, Steam is the least obtrusive – bar a few issues with Steam Cloud eating save games, I’ve had no problems with it. That seems to be the case for the vast majority of other Steam users. I can understand Khemm’s frustration with Steam, since it’s essentially being forced upon him despite the fact that – for him – it doesn’t work well. But his failure to acknowledge that he is, in fact, an unusual case makes him seem like a troll.
11/04/2012 at 21:11 oceanclub says:
Have to say, I’ve never had any real problems with GFWL so it won’t put me off. The fact it’s hard-as-nails might… naw, I’m intrigued enough to get it.
P.
11/04/2012 at 21:17 Spacecraft says:
I’m the same way. I don’t get this hate.
11/04/2012 at 21:20 Khemm says:
I would buy this even if it had Steamworks, and everyone knows I don’t like the service. BECAUSE I’M ECSTATIC THIS GAME IS COMING TO PC AT ALL.
That means GFWL haters are even more childish than they accuse ME of being.
11/04/2012 at 21:28 Phantoon says:
Except Steamworks isn’t as bad as GFWL.
So that’s a false comparison.
11/04/2012 at 21:42 Fincher says:
Since when was sticking to your guns about lame DRM being childish? Shouldn’t abandoning your morals at the sight of a shiny game be the childish choice?
Of course, that’s more akin to a magpie.
There are reasons people don’t take the video game consumer base seriously, one of them being that half of them are so deluded and wavering.
11/04/2012 at 22:03 Shooop says:
People don’t accuse you of being childish, they accuse you of being a pathological liar and imbecile. And they’re correct.
11/04/2012 at 22:36 Khemm says:
Oh look, Steam tards resorting to name calling. Typical.
11/04/2012 at 22:43 Fincher says:
How very presumptuous of you, when Steam is a similar flavour of nasty DRM. Who’s to say he doesn’t support stuff like GoG or Gamersgate? Stop swinging your arms around and think.
11/04/2012 at 22:50 Shooop says:
The truth always strikes a raw nerve doesn’t it?
When you’re done flailing about your room angrily in between fits of bashing your keyboard with you head, amazingly spelling out “Steam fanboy retards!” maybe you’ll have enough time to consider why you are exactly what we say and what you can do to change it. Or you could even ask us.
12/04/2012 at 01:21 Nick says:
Nail on the head.
11/04/2012 at 22:04 HothMonster says:
No you are being childish in saying “I hate this service and will never use it until something I want comes out on it then I will buckle like a……um buckle”
11/04/2012 at 21:44 mckertis says:
“The fact it’s hard-as-nails”
Its not a fact, its an opinion. Go to youtube and watch LP’s of it. Its not harder than any average game. You die a lot, but you only lose money and then respawn. Some punishment. Seriously, where does this “its hard as fuck” myth comes from ?? Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup is hard. And it has permadeath. Dark Souls ? Not so much, plus unlimited lives.
11/04/2012 at 21:50 ThatGuy says:
I don’t quite understand either, considering PC gamers have the largest collection of games to choose from, some of which are ungodly difficult without any of that bullshit difficulty why Dark Souls has suddenly picked up such infamy.
Hell, I’ve died more in Stalker trying to get out of Garbage than I did in my entire DaS playthrough. But that’s more due to AMK than Vanilla, but still.
12/04/2012 at 02:24 JackShandy says:
False comparison, stalker has quicksaves.
11/04/2012 at 21:51 Fincher says:
Surprisingly, watching people play is a lot easier than the actual act of playing it yourself. Difficulty and unreasonable punishment aren’t the same. Nobody would finish the game if it had permadeath.
11/04/2012 at 23:22 Psychopomp says:
There is nothing bullshit about Dark Souls difficulty. It is exactly as difficult as your are bad, impulsive and impatient..
12/04/2012 at 23:17 clumsyandshy says:
Exactly right. Well put :)
11/04/2012 at 21:12 Eclipse says:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
WHY
WHYYY.
I demand a new petition :(
11/04/2012 at 21:12 Moonshine Fox says:
It’s absolutely HILARIOUS how terrible some distributors are. We pray on our very KNEES to get the game to PC, and they give in finally….and straddles it with the WORST matchmaking system the world has ever seen. Why? It’s been proven again, and again, and again how absolutely TERRIBLE GFWL is, and still people turn to it? There must be something really awesome dev-wise for them to turn to it. Well, guess that’s a no-buy then, because that absolutely horrible piece of crap software is just not worth it.
11/04/2012 at 21:13 Mordsung says:
Went from a day 1 buy to a “Will wait till 5 bucks”.
GFWL is unacceptable at this point. It is 2012.
11/04/2012 at 21:14 PleasingFungus says:
Huh, I guess I’ll get around to picking this up on the PS3 at some point.
11/04/2012 at 21:16 Spacecraft says:
I don’t understand the GFWL hate. I know it’s not great, but I’ve never had a problem with it. I actually like being able to chat with my xbox live buddies every now and then because I don’t have an xbox anymore.
And GFWL has great matchmaking when it’s done RIGHT. The main problem is that GFWL is only ever in shoddy ports and devs put little to no effort into integrating it well into their games.
11/04/2012 at 21:26 Phantoon says:
You don’t understand because you’ve never had a problem with it.
Which you said yourself. You are lucky. The rest of us? Had major problems.
12/04/2012 at 09:10 Milky1985 says:
Really, “Rest of us”?
There is a lot of chouting at gfwl on here but i get the feeling its the same level of the peopel who were shouting at johnathon ross and russel brand, i mean after the daily mail ran the story.
Basically legions of people shotuing who have NEVER HAD THE ISSUES.
ITs simply because its microsoft, if micrsoft do something it must be bad and awful .
Yeah sure its not the best pc implementation of things, but its no-where near as bad as people say.
11/04/2012 at 21:51 Crimsoneer says:
For me, GFWL can’t update games at all. It downloads it, quits that game, then restarts the game…and asks me to update again. FOR EVERY, SINGLE, GFWL GAME. The only way to deal with the problem is go digging through my appdata to manually install the patches.
11/04/2012 at 22:09 CMaster says:
@Crimsoneer.
Sounds a lot like what I had to deal with.
Try going to xbox.com, logging in with your GFWL account details, and accepting the xbox live terms of service. I had to do this before I could even play DoW2 SP.
12/04/2012 at 01:23 Nick says:
I never had a huge problem with it (apart from its rather annoying clunkyness and shit updating method and terrible MP functionality), untill it ate my savegames for no apparent reason. Never again.
11/04/2012 at 21:17 Nameless1 says:
WHAT THE F*CK.
11/04/2012 at 21:17 Aemony says:
Well, there goes my full price purchase. I’ll wait and pick it up when it gets a sale on Steam instead.
11/04/2012 at 21:17 Dowson says:
Well, they say its a difficult game.
Having to install a patch 5 times because GFWL deletes it when it restarts and then has to redownload is quite difficult to stomach.
As is the disconnects, failing to log in, and of course the corrupt saves.
Its all a mechanic to make the game ultra difficult.
11/04/2012 at 21:21 Unaco says:
PC Gamers have demanded a more difficult, more ‘hardcore’ version than the consoles… and they’re delivering. You’ll probably also need 3rd party programs to change control pad bindings, and the inis (that you’ll need to edit manually to change any options) will all be encrypted. In Enochian.
11/04/2012 at 21:18 FieldOfTheBattle says:
Oh come on stop being babies GFWL is bad but it’s not a deal breaker.
11/04/2012 at 21:20 Eclipse says:
last time I tried to play Arkam Asylum I spent 15 minutes just to convince it to log me in, so yeah, it’s a deal breaker.
11/04/2012 at 21:24 CMaster says:
It once took me an hour, and advice from a non-MS related forum to get to play Dawn of War 2 singleplayer.
11/04/2012 at 21:24 Phantoon says:
Want your save games when you’re not connected to the internet (even though they’re physically on your machine)? Well with GFWL, it’s easy! It’ll demand you log in and deny you your save games from when you either weren’t logged in and now are, or were logged in and now are.
When I said easy, I mean easy to motivate you to pull your hair out.
11/04/2012 at 21:35 FieldOfTheBattle says:
Use offline profile.
11/04/2012 at 23:59 Malk_Content says:
At which point the use of GFWL is? Apart from making me spend a few seconds fiddling with the menus to go offline. Advice also only useful when you know that GFWL does something as idiotic and easily remedied (but never is) as store Online and Offline saves in a different place AND not know where to look for them, which is something you find out for the first time after it has become a problem and can quite easily forget (or assume has been fixed) when you come back to the game in 6 months time or buy a new game saddled with it.
11/04/2012 at 21:25 Stellar Duck says:
It ate my Arkham City saves. And I spend a bloody age getting Dead Rising 2 to work. So yea, it’s a deal breaker.
11/04/2012 at 21:30 Phantoon says:
It ate my Fallout 3 save when I went to install Broken Steel. My level 20 save with oodles of stuff.
I was not pleased about being forced to start over.
11/04/2012 at 21:36 Stellar Duck says:
Ouch. My sympathies.
Also I thought this was mildly amusing in my head:
Dey took our saves!
12/04/2012 at 09:12 Milky1985 says:
No, arkham city ate your arkham city save.
It was patched out byt he developer not though a GFWL patch, thus was much more likely something the developer did.
But since everyone hates GFWL cause its MS and related to consoles they added 2 and 2 and got 22
12/04/2012 at 18:40 HothMonster says:
No GFWL did. GFWL is what encrypts and unlocks the save files, it is also what fucks up and fails to unlock and then corrupts the save files. This is not a problem limited to Batman, happened with Fallout 3 and GTA as well. Probably other games these are just the ones I have seen people bitch about the most. Because saved game encryption is mandatory if you use GFWL.
11/04/2012 at 21:33 DiGi says:
Sorry, it IS dealbreaker.
11/04/2012 at 21:19 Oozo says:
Wouldn’t that be the perfect occasion for that already once asked for piece on “Why you should be looking forward to Dark Souls” (even if it uses GFWL)?
11/04/2012 at 21:20 RedViv says:
And there I was, looking forward to improved multiplayer. A pitiful thought, ruined hopes for a poor lass. Blessed with a service that deletes saves and rolls dice on whether it grants lag or disconnects.
11/04/2012 at 21:20 Oozo says:
Edit: Since the first post was eaten by a gaping dragon…
Wouldn’t that be all the more reason to write that already once before asked for post about “Why you should be looking forward to Dark Souls” (…even if it uses GFWL – it’s THAT good)?
Oh, and, by the way: Can we talk about the CHIMERA now, please?
11/04/2012 at 21:20 trjp says:
This is hilarious – it really is – the only thing worse than not having a game is having it on GFWL.
A game with a single save – which GFWL WILL lose for you at some point – it’s just a classic.
Actual LOL
11/04/2012 at 21:23 pkt-zer0 says:
Oh, SHIT. You just reminded me about GfWL’s savegame DRM and related wonkiness. Ouch.
11/04/2012 at 21:50 Defiant Badger says:
I think at this point the only way this game could get any more masochistic is if you had to play it with a keyboard made of rusted nails.
11/04/2012 at 22:50 trjp says:
In fairness, the 360 version lost my save twice (fortunately within the first 2 hours) so it’s not unique to PCs that the game will screw you over…
It’s not a positive sign tho – the developer doesn’t have a stellar record of PC ports, adding GFWL into the mix is only going to make things uglier…
12/04/2012 at 03:03 Pointless Puppies says:
Yes indeed, not having the game at all is definitely better than having GFWL. /sarcasm
Jesus, listen to yourself.
12/04/2012 at 16:10 HothMonster says:
If you play the game for 60 hours and it eats your save you will probably wish it didn’t exist.
12/04/2012 at 21:07 Pointless Puppies says:
Because that’s completely guaranteed to happen with this particular game, right? It’s not like every other game with GFWL I’ve played hasn’t done this (including infamous ones like Arkham City), or that there are plenty of GFWL games that don’t do this at all, right?
12/04/2012 at 22:26 HothMonster says:
“Because that’s completely guaranteed to happen with this particular game, right?”
No, thats why the sentence starts with IF. It is a supposition; an uncertain possibility.
IF it was guaranteed to happen I would have started the sentence with WHEN.
11/04/2012 at 21:20 Phantoon says:
Welp.
Went from wanting this, to not wanting it, and in fact wanting them to not make it.
11/04/2012 at 21:22 D-e-f- says:
I’d love to know who makes these decisions and what their though process is. I REALLY want to know. Someone needs to explain to all of us why they make the choice to support GFWL … especially in 2012!
11/04/2012 at 21:27 Drinking with Skeletons says:
Did no one play this game? This is exactly the kind of arduous, purposeless punishment Dark Soul embodies!
Having to wrestle with the software itself just to install and run the game? The potential for crashes which will force you to backtrack through areas you’ve already completed? Keys permanently bound to work only for the service?
GFWL is the perfect medium for this game.
11/04/2012 at 21:30 Phantoon says:
GFWL isn’t part of the game design, and there’s no victory in beating it.
Only frustration.
11/04/2012 at 21:38 Drinking with Skeletons says:
It relies entirely on the user’s skill in navigating GFWL and working around its flaws and limitations.
The victory is getting to play the game.
11/04/2012 at 21:29 Teddy Leach says:
I’ve had far more problems with Steam than GFWL.
11/04/2012 at 21:31 Phantoon says:
Do you use Steam more than GFWL?
11/04/2012 at 21:34 Teddy Leach says:
About equally, actually.
11/04/2012 at 22:40 Khemm says:
Welcome aboard.
I wonder when was the last time people complaining about GFWL actually used it and keep judging it based on horrid ports like Bioshock 2.
11/04/2012 at 22:45 gschmidl says:
This year, trying out MS Flight. Flew into an apoplectic rage instead of the sky.
11/04/2012 at 23:03 Stellar Duck says:
At least you flew.
13/04/2012 at 12:29 chackosan says:
Arkham City – went into an infinite update-restart loop, and after a few attempts, I had to go to the forums, search for a while and download an external tool to trick GFWL into allowing me into the game. So that’s one less thing to wonder about.
11/04/2012 at 21:31 hbarsquared says:
This actually makes a lot of sense. GFWL, disregarding its flaws, is purportedly similar to the netcode behind the Xbox 360. Since FROM doesn’t develop for PC, and is planning an August release, I don’t see why they would re-write their entire networking backend when there is a drop-in replacement for it.
I wish GFWL wasn’t the steaming poo that it is, but this is the exact usage case it was designed for.
11/04/2012 at 21:32 Phantoon says:
It’s pronounced “lazy”.
12/04/2012 at 03:06 Pointless Puppies says:
We’re getting a PC port pretty much against all odds. The fact that Namco is practically the only major publisher in history that actually listened to an internet port begging petition, plus the fact that From is a tiny studio with a complex online infrastructure that hasn’t coded anything for PC in well over a decade gives them every reason to be a little “lazy”.
Sometimes I wonder if gamers even know just how fucking hard it is to code games. Throwing the word “lazy” around like this makes my blood boil.
12/04/2012 at 07:33 Khemm says:
Some people prefer to behave like spoiled teenagers who get angry they get a yellow toy car instead of a red one for Christmas.
And people wonder why developers, console gamers and publishers think that PC gamers are a bunch of elitist assholes. It’s because of this vocal Steam fanboy group.
12/04/2012 at 09:15 Milky1985 says:
For the love of god, again doing well, until that last sentence.
The gfwl hate is not just “a steam fangroup”, its a mix of peopel who have legtimiatly had issues (a small ammount of them) and others that just hate gfwl cause its console related and microsoft.
13/04/2012 at 12:32 chackosan says:
If the car’s willingness to start depended on its chromatic qualities, then that analogy might make sense. Otherwise, nope.
11/04/2012 at 21:36 Unaco says:
Wait… GFWL was designed? Not forged in the fires of Mount Doom? Not birthed from the pit of obscenities known as Min-Uroikas/Golgotterath?
12/04/2012 at 02:41 Reapy says:
Yeah its clearly because they ported from xbox 360 and wanted to keep the networking stuff in. The main reason I’d go PC after I have it on 360 was for better network connectivity. Still, going to wait a bit now after release and see if pc users will dig into it and patch it out so you can get dedicated servers to leave comments on and hopefully always be stocked full of people instead of waiting 20 minutes for someone from japan to connect.
11/04/2012 at 21:35 Gvaz says:
I can’t believe it, the best news has the worst news with it. This is awful.
11/04/2012 at 21:37 rockman29 says:
IDIOTS!
11/04/2012 at 21:41 Underwhelmed says:
What a bunch of crybabies. I bet 3 McRibs that half of the people going on about how they won’t buy it due to GFWL will either buy it within a week of launch, or wouldn’t have bought it in the first place.
11/04/2012 at 21:58 Vorphalack says:
Accusing others of unprovable apathy to justify your own inability to resist the next flawed shiny thing is about as low as it gets on the internet.
11/04/2012 at 22:26 svge says:
If that’s as bad as you think it gets on the internet, you have not traversed very far into it.
11/04/2012 at 21:52 MistahThorn says:
If anyone who signed that damn petition and swore that they were going to buy it but turn their back and say that they’re not buying this game is an asshole. They spent a lot of time and money for something YOU wanted pc gamers, but when they make ONE mistake and you feel the need to boycott it, then they might be discouraged from making pc ports in the future.
11/04/2012 at 21:58 Unaco says:
Or, be encouraged to not make mistakes like this. There is a market for their games on PC, but they need to get their PC versions right to capitalise on that market. For myself, I’ve said, GFWL isn’t a deal-breaker… But it does smack of an ill considered port, along with news of no rebinding of keys and limited (or no) graphics options (not confirmed yet). If that’s the case and it does seem like a shoddy port, then I’m afraid I can’t support them.
11/04/2012 at 22:05 MistahThorn says:
I don’t care what anyone has to say about GFWL, it’s like a 16 year old getting a beat up truck for christmas, and crying that it wasn’t a Ferrari. She should be happy that she got anything. And so should everyone. I don’t have anything against your opinion however, was just further explaining mine.
11/04/2012 at 22:09 Unaco says:
That analogy would maybe work… If this were a gift from them. But it isn’t. We’re going to pay them for it. To use your analogy, it’s like paying for a Ferrari, but receiving a beat up truck. A truck that gets lost whenever you park it and go out of sight, and refuses to recognise your key in the ignition.
11/04/2012 at 22:13 Crimsoneer says:
You do realise you’re a customer right? Not a bumbling adolescent?
It’s pretty simply – if I think your game is worth my money, I’ll give you my money. In my experience, most Xbox 360 -> GFWL games are TERRIBLE ports. I still remember being terribly burnt by the Saints Row 2 port, so now I’m going to wait for reviews before I commit to this.
11/04/2012 at 21:53 Solidstate89 says:
I’ve never once had an issue with GFWL. Not discounting the fact that others have had massive problems but it has worked flawlessly for me.
I guess that makes me better than you.
13/04/2012 at 12:35 chackosan says:
More fortunate, certainly. Though probably less intelligent, judging by your logic.
11/04/2012 at 21:55 Vartarok says:
It includes a lot more things than two new bosses. In fact, all of the following:
New Bosses – Including Artorias of Abyss, Chimera of Tomb, and more
PVP Online Matchmaking System – Quick matching for co-op or PVP
New Areas – Including Oolacile Tomb, Old Ruins and more
New Enemies – Including Abyss Guard, Chained Prisoner and more
New NPCs – Including Hawkeye Gough and more
New Weapons and Armor – Equip some from the new bosses, enemies, and NPCs
More details to be revealed…
So it is clearly NOT just “a straightforward port”.
11/04/2012 at 21:57 Blackcompany says:
I used to play Fuel. I still like the game. Kind of relaxing to just free roam that big open world, driving really fast and dodging trees and wrecks.
Except…I don’t get to do that any more. See, I only play it when I am in the mood to relax. And since I first have to manage a password reset and 30 updates – each with a separate fucking reboot – for GFWL before I can play, I view Fuel as a $4.99 lesson courtesy of Steam.
Never. Buy. GFWL games. Not. Ever.
Now, I’m no fan of Steam either. I mean hell, this game’s been out more than a year once its released on PC. Why go DRM at all at that point. How bout gog.com and other sites, no DRM and $30. You will sell two to three times the number of games you will achieve using SFWL (figure it out, it ain’t hard.)
I still want the game. I am going to try and steel myself to buy it. I really am. But why anyone would put this app on their game – why anyone would want to partner with MS for any reason at all when they don’t explicitly need to do so – is beyond me.
11/04/2012 at 21:57 deathguise says:
I am convinced that one day, someone will actually post a well-thought out explaination as to why GFWL is a bad thing, to which I can have a mature discussion upon. Unfortunately, the cycle of hating for the sake of hating continues without any serious discussion on the issues, rather just endless reposting of a few issues only a few users have encountered, whilst giving no heed to the massive improvements the service has made as it has matured, exactly like the early days of Steam.
Feel free to prove me wrong though, I’d love a real discussion.
11/04/2012 at 22:01 Unaco says:
The corrupted and lost save problems isn’t a reasonable explanation as to why GFWL is bad? Tying saves to the GFWL system even when they’re on your hard-drive, refusing to access them due to problems logging on? Personally I’ve had very few problems with it (the one that stands out was a corrupted save, only 30 minutes of play though, luckily), but a great many people have reported serious issues with that aspect of the service.
11/04/2012 at 22:03 Mac says:
Corrupted save in Batman, corrupted save in DoW 2, and don’t get me started on the patching process in Fallout 3.
GFWL embodies everything that is bad about client based DRM.
11/04/2012 at 22:46 deathguise says:
I’ll try to cover my opinions on both the save-related questions in one reply for convenience. I really appreciate what you’re saying but at the same time, at least they’re providing a method for multiple users to keep their own games and saves without having to quit the entire game and service completely (ala Steam). Yes, the saves could be less obsfucated, yes they could be freed of the restriction of being permanently attached to the Live account, however this is mostly a holdover from the way the Xbox Live system was designed and also to discourage save sharing to unlock achievements.
In all seriousness I will rein in on the save corruption issue. It has never happened to me, or any of my friends, however I can see why 30 or more hours of your life disappearing in front of you is a huge issue. The problem I have is tarring the whole service because of this, as it not only an issue that does not affect every game, but also an issue that does not affect every user of a game it has been reported in. Arkham Asylum had a particularly prevalent save problem, but did Section 8? Even considering GFWL to be the problem, this is something the devs should pick up in testing and solve there. If not every game has the problem, why do some of them?
But I digress, I really want to thank you guys for discussing the issues properly, rather than bitch.
11/04/2012 at 23:19 HothMonster says:
What games does steam make you only have 1 saved game for? I honestly don’t understand the complaint.
You can only attach a game to one GFWL account just like for steam. Beyond that the amount of save games slots and multi profiles is an in game feature.
Yes after GFWL erases 60 hours of my time, by deleting my AC saves multiple times. I no longer care to give any money to it. Not to mention the customer service and the frustration of the issue.
I had the save game on my computer still but it no longer worked because “something something sign in decryption code changed something irreversible” That is basically what I finally got out of a rocksteady rep. After GFWL telling me I had to contact the DEV, then rocksteady telling me it was caused by MS and there hands were tied, then GFWL still continued to not have a support page (it just says go to your dev) so I called xbox live who said its not heir problem, then I called MS’s main tech support who said its not their problem. When I asked them whose problem it was they transfered me to xbox live who again told me to call the dev who finally gave me an intern who let me yell at him for 20 minutes, told me everything would be ok, except of course it wouldnt.
But hey I hear the end of AC is great….
11/04/2012 at 23:40 deathguise says:
Sorry, I must not have been clear. When I said “users to keep their own games and saves without having to quit the entire game and service completely (ala Steam)”. I meant more multiple users using the same computer and game. In cases on Steam where there is only one ‘save slot’ on a game (let’s use Modern Warfare 3 as an example) if you wanted to change your user you have to quit the game, quit out of Steam, log back in with the other account then boot the game back up. In GWFL, you just log out of your live profile in-game, then log in with the other user, thereby switching your profile without having to exit the game or GFWL.
I appreciate that in both cases you have to have bought the game on each profile you’re playing on, and although profile slots are a game feature, in games which are effectively ‘one copy, one profile’ it’s quicker to switch users on GFWL.
EDIT: Sorry, you edited while I was replying. Customer Service is supposed to be pretty bad, never had to contact them myself though, there’s actually a really interesting thread on Reddit at the moment where a GFWL support guy is explaining the problems they face trying to give half-decent service (http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/s4o9y/i_cannot_express_how_much_i_hate_you/)
12/04/2012 at 00:01 HothMonster says:
your complaint is now understood thank you for clarifying.
From my experience there is no dedicated gfwl support, any attempt to contact them leads to a brick wall that says contact the games dev even if we are the cause of your woes. Which is extra annoying if you are looking at your save game file and just need them to decrypt it or rollback the code tied to your account so it decrypts properly on loading.
Steams support is shitty but at least they exist even if its just to say, yeah we fucked up but can’t do anything. Of course after the three bot responses they send you.
But thanks ill check out the reddit thread.
13/04/2012 at 09:35 Mac says:
I’m sorry, but being able to swap profiles from within game in GFWL is not a feature I would crow about – for one, it takes as long to hit Home and wait for the dialogue box to pop up and change ID (given how slow the GFWL client is) as it does to close down Steam, log in as a different user and re-launch the game.
In addition, if this is the only “feature” which provides a benefit over Steam then lord help us. It certainly does not compensate for the poor patching, lost saves, and general annoyance of matchmaking.
Further, I do blame devs for not allowing multiple profiles – it’s just a cheap money grab, and thankfully there are few games which adopt this policy.
It shows the commitment of MS when they have even changed GFWL to just be called XBOX Live in any case.
GFWL should either commit to the PC and make a solid client or die … how many times have MS re-re-re-re-re-re-re-launched their commitment to PC?
11/04/2012 at 22:16 Crimsoneer says:
it refuses to update games for me, yet doesn’t give me any other way of updating. Downloads update, closes, doesn’t install, rinse and repeat. The only way to bypass the damn thing is to go digging in appdata folders.
Oh, and it completely broke Batman Imposters.
11/04/2012 at 22:32 deathguise says:
A number of GFWL games provide a manual patcher in case you can’t use the in-game updater. The in game updater does need work, however until updates are handled by a central client this will always be an issue for the platform, as due to the fact that GWFL is not a background process (like Steam) and people refuse to accept ‘another’ download service (see Origin), the only way to provide centralised updates is to run the game (which starts GWFL as a process) then having to quit the game to patch while GFWL is running in the background (can’t patch a game if it is running). If you look at the marketplace on Windows Phone and Windows 8, this issue is more or less resolved, and will hopefully be fixed in all GFWL games come Windows 8 and the change over to Xbox Live for Windows.
11/04/2012 at 22:55 Crimsoneer says:
Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure GFWL will work fine one day, but this problem has been around for ages. I first had it with Bioshock 2, and had it most recently when I bought Bulletstorm. MS has just stopped working on GFWL. I’m sure it COULD work great, but for me it just doesn’t work.
Also, linking save games to one online profile is idiotic.
It also has the most IDIOTIC multiplayer userame system: once you’ve picked a username, that is the only name you can every dsiplay in multiplayer. So my original account was FirstnameLastname, and now, ehenver I play online with GFWL, that’s my display name. Unless I PAY TO CHANGE IT….ARG.
11/04/2012 at 23:14 deathguise says:
In all likelyhood, work on GWFL probably stopped some time ago when Windows 8 was coming into the picture, get ready for convergent services I guess. I think with proper development it could, as you say, be great, especially if GWFL itself wasn’t a port. The whole ‘unique username’ thing fell out of fashion forever ago, but bear in mind that the architecture behind Live (Xbox and GWF) has been pretty much set in stone since the original Xbox Live launch in 2002, the console implementation has effectively been holding the pc implementation back considerably, MS know how to make content delivery systems and all that cool shit Steam was only dreaming of back in 2003, but they had to work with the original Xbox as a base. It would be nice to change your username to whatever you want, but it is a unique identifier at least, if someone is cheating or hacking, any idiot can report them without having to reverse engineer a Steam User ID list (MW3 looking at you).
In all honesty though, I wish more people had tried the original GFWL implementation that shipped with games like Gears and The Club, it was fast, minimalist and there were barely any bugs to speak of, hilariously ‘it just worked’ unlike the confused program we have now, there’s the executable, where you have to download DLC out of game, which is also a store, then the in game menu, which looks different, ehhhh. Like I said, lots of niggles solved in W8 hopefully.
11/04/2012 at 23:42 Phinor says:
How about the little problem that GFWL is only available in 35 countries in the world? Rest of the 150+ countries actually can’t play GFWL games at all unless you create an illegal account with fake information. Of course you wouldn’t care about this issue if you happen to be among the 35 lucky countries but I’d say it’s a bit more than an inconvenience.
11/04/2012 at 23:59 Khemm says:
It’s over 50 now. And I can play online fine using an account registered to a supported country.
12/04/2012 at 01:18 deathguise says:
Inconvenient yes, and I do know what it’s like to be shut out of a service based on region (Zune). However at least in those supported countries, you can trade in local currency as opposed to Steam which only supports four currencies, and does a very weak job of it in terms of localised pricing, so does Origin in fact.
There is room for improvement, but this is in fact occuring thanks to Windows Phone, as Microsoft have been expanding the WP marketplace (which uses a Live account) as to be competetive in the mobile space (nobody wants a phone with no apps nowadays).
12/04/2012 at 09:16 AlexV says:
Also, GFWL breaks my media streamer.
No, honestly, it does. GFWL requires the Windows Live Sign-In Assistant to be installed, and the Windows Live Sign-In Assistant makes a small change to the SMB networking protocol that broke non-windows access to windows shares. (https://bugzilla.samba.org/show_bug.cgi?id=7577)
Of course, the Samba team produced a workaround, but as there’s been no updated firmware for my media streamer box that sits under the TV (and not looking likely to be either), it means that if I install GFWL then it can’t access my windows shares, and can’t play my shared media.
Just another reason why GFWL sucks.
12/04/2012 at 11:05 Khemm says:
So it was Windows Live Sign-In Assistant that broke compatibility and Samba’s fault, yet you’re blaming GFWL?
12/04/2012 at 14:43 deathguise says:
OK, so blame can be placed on the LSIA breaking Samba, however as the above poster says, this is not GFWL fault directly (should have been picked up by the LSIA dev team), however if Samba have produced a fix and haven’t pushed a firmware update that’s Samba dragging their heels on the matter not Microsoft.
I really hate to say it but this is a big part of the hate for GFWL, one thing breaking another, I mean, a lot of people complain about .NET not working, but pretty much every Steam game installs it, so do we blame .NET (yes), the game installing it (nope) or Steam (definite nope). Hopefully you can see where I’m coming from here, it’s definitely not a personal attack.
11/04/2012 at 22:00 Eukatheude says:
And guess who they’re gonna blame after the game sells poorly?
Fucking idiots.
11/04/2012 at 22:07 MistahThorn says:
Piracy. That’s how big game publishers think they’re getting off the hook.
12/04/2012 at 00:01 Khemm says:
The only fucking idiots are people using GFWL as an excuse to pirate the game. Retards.
12/04/2012 at 00:54 Eukatheude says:
I’d probably buy it and then play the pirated version.
11/04/2012 at 22:02 Mac says:
Namco snatching defeat from the jaws of victory with the dick move of using GFWL
11/04/2012 at 22:12 Kaira- says:
Meh, no problem for me. I’ll probably get the PC version somewhere down the line when some of the problems that might be created by GfWL will be cut down. And besides, Steam has been so much more trouble than GfWL it isn’t even funny.
11/04/2012 at 22:18 best_jeppe says:
Even if I am not the target audience for this game I have still followed the turns and was sincerely happy for all the Dark Soul-fans out there when a PC-version was announced…but somewhere I always knew it was to good to be true. I personally hate G4WL and I pray all the time (that is, if I was religious) that G4WL gets shutdown sooner rather than later. G4WL just destroys any gaming enjoyment.
11/04/2012 at 22:20 Ezhar says:
At first glance I thought the title read something like “GFWL: prepare to die” and I was happy. Then I read it properly. Not so happy now.
11/04/2012 at 22:22 Ysellian says:
Well this sucks :/
11/04/2012 at 22:28 archieoi says:
Why cruel world… I still cant play Bulletstorm due to the GFWL, and mind you I payed 60 bucks for this game…
11/04/2012 at 22:37 Vinraith says:
Headline a few weeks after release: Namco announces it will never port to PC again, blames piracy for low Dark Souls sales numbers.
11/04/2012 at 23:27 Psychopomp says:
Counterpoint: Games with even worse always on DRM still top the Steam best sellers list over and over again.
12/04/2012 at 01:19 Vinraith says:
Nevertheless, any sales that are lost as a result of GfWL will be chalked up to the great industry boogeyman.
12/04/2012 at 03:00 Mordsung says:
Name an always on DRM worse than GFWL.
I personally can’t think of one. Ubi’s isn’t as bad, Steamworks isn’t as bad, Origin isn’t as bad.
11/04/2012 at 22:41 yobobjm says:
Just thought you guys would like to know, the website shows a box without the GFWL banner, if that means anything. http://preparetodie.com/en/preorder/
11/04/2012 at 22:49 D3xter says:
I’m very conflicted about all of this…
Why would they do that? :/
They already have a few different games on Steam and !!!MICROSOFT!!! has been adding their games to Steam lately, their “Age of Empires: All in Wonder Bundle” was at the Top of the “Top Sellers” list for a few weeks now while discounted… they likely made more money on Steam than through their Launch on GFWL.
11/04/2012 at 22:50 ffordesoon says:
Ahahaha. Ha. Ha. Haha. Ha. Hoho. Heehee.
No, we can’t just get the game. Nooooo. We need to be kept in line, because piracy.
I use Xbox Live. I love Xbox Live. GFW Live is like if Xbox Live had its legs hacked off and replaced with cotton candy. It’s garbage.
I’m still buying this, though. But goddammit, Namco. Why do you have to be so fucking “Japanese publisher” about this?
11/04/2012 at 22:57 Shooop says:
https://imgur.com/z8k42
This raises even more questions! Why would the German release be tethered to GFWL and the U.S. not if box art is to be believed?
11/04/2012 at 22:58 kud13 says:
interest level—PLUNGING
the biggest problem with GFWL is that M$ doesn’t support it for shit. every time I decide to play a GFWL game (I have several), it tends to require updates.
When I got Dawn of War 2, it required about 30 minutes to set it up the first time, I always used offline mode, no issues.
Batman:AA-no issues.
Arkham city, after over a year, of not firing up GFWL, took me TWO HOURS. during which i’ve re-installed the bloody thing FIFTEEN TIMES. Usually by using third-party sites to find the installer, because the official Xbox site (despite this being a PC issue), was unavailable.
If I recall correctly, the only way I was able to update was after hours of sporadic chanting, by engaging the mystical ritual of… Windows Update. yes, I had to manually find fhe proper components, and coaxe teh machine spirits to delve into the cosmos of the web and retreive the arcana that would make it possible for me to play my bloody game.
I have, to date, to discover how to make it work on a mew PC i’ve built, with a fresh GFWL installation. having spent about 3 hours trying, I gave up playing Batman AC on a 21-inch screen with a good framarate (due to new computer actually having a GPU),a nd went back to 12 fps on my 19-inch laptop with an Intell graphics chip that could.
on the contarary, I can’t recall ever having issues with offline Steam (and I offline is my default use of it,, even in Uni, where I have super-stable connection)
I signed the petition. I know Dark SOuls is supposed to be an MP-focused game, but I like offline play. Steam lets me d that more often, and does not require me to use creative workarounds.
I was considering getting Dark Souls. now I probably won’t.
Khemm, that being said, you are getting ridiculous. not everyone who prefers Steam is a “valve fanboy”. I have a number of games I bought on Steam that I consequently re-bought on GoG, because I prefer to have them unencumbered by any form of DRM. I also have Origin, which I got after buying some cheap games off EA directly, and it has not been as intrusive as some people find it, and I don’t need it to run Dragon Age, which basically means I have it DRM free on that machine. I have a Gamers-Gate account as well.
none of this means that I can’t think that, objectively, from my personal experience, Steam has been a less stringent form of DRM, taking less effort to get along with, then GWFL.
11/04/2012 at 23:03 Sic says:
Easy choice.
Not buying.
11/04/2012 at 23:14 Oneironaut says:
This will probably be the first game where I’m actually willing to buy it on day one despite the inclusion of GFWL. I’ve passed over quite a few games because of it. I’ve still signed the petition in the hopes that it will be removed.
11/04/2012 at 23:27 PoulWrist says:
People always moan and overreact. I will wait and see what reviews say. Hopefully positive. Never had any actual issues with gfwl, so whatever. Maybe it is horrible to some, but so are strawberries.
11/04/2012 at 23:35 povu says:
So why do devs still use GFWL when they should all know how much people hate it? Is it that it’s easy to port the system over from Xbox Live? Or does Microsoft give incentives for games that use it? Or are these Japanese developers/publishers just completely clueless about the western market and how it tends to react to GFWL?
12/04/2012 at 02:39 Pointless Puppies says:
The first one. It’s easy.
The fact that GFWL is there is a little disappointing, but let’s be realistic here, the game is barely getting the PC port and the budget for this is probably pretty low. The “Souls” series has never been known for hugeass AAA budget (the first game just barely even made it out of Japan). Hell, even plenty of hugeass AAA budget titles still come with GFWL.
11/04/2012 at 23:36 PC-GAMER-4LIFE says:
GFWL is excellent news to me I own around 50 GFWL games & never had a problem so not sure what all the fuss is about either I am a supreme being or there are a lot of cry babies who complain about nothing!
As long as you have Open NAT + UPNP enabled GFWL will work as intended its such a simple program not sure why there is so much fuss about nothing it even has a fully working at all times offline mode once activated you can just minimise it to the background set to autologon & never notice its even there either! Steam does not push out the latest GFWL client either on older games you have to manually download that from GFWL cannot really blame MS for that when Steam are too lazy to update their packaging suite!
85% of the 360 code is already contained in GFWL which is why Capcom & WB Games & now Namco Bandai like to use it as it saves a lot of time/money on porting costs.
In the next few weeks there are at least 5 games coming to PC which use GFWL (Resident Evil ORC, Street Fighter x Tekken, Crash Time4, Insanely Twisted & either Toy Soldiers os MS Splosion Man).
11/04/2012 at 23:50 D3xter says:
Twisted at least won’t require GFWL as far as I can tell: http://store.steampowered.com/app/205730/
You know there’s a problem with your platform when even your own company (Microsoft Game Studios) decides to not include it in releases and makes Megabucks off it like it happened with Age of Empires 3 etc. on Steam
12/04/2012 at 00:27 PC-GAMER-4LIFE says:
Look again it uses GFWL on all versions. MS are just selling GFWL games on Steam direct now as they know their own GFWM store is poor but remember GFWM Store & GFWL are 2 different things altogether!
All GFWL does is handle achievements, matchmaking, ingame messaging & works like Steam in only allowing 1 unique user per game serial number. So its only DRM is to limit the game to 1 per user thats it no great hidden DRM secret anywhere whatsoever!
GFWM is a PC store & yep its terrible but its to get PC sales from 360 gamers you can tell the way its designed so poorly! All MS are doing is selling games direct on Steam as the Steam store is obviously a good place to sell games.
GFWL vs Steamworks is at best a draw both have good/bad points if Valve turned around tomorrow & used GFWL instead of Steamworks few would say anything about that!!
GFWL is mainly a perception thing most haters probably never bought a PC game unless its on sale in the Steam xmas sales anyway its not like Dark Souls will sell less on PC because it uses GFWL or not is it the difference will be minor & balanced out by the no piracy aspect.
12/04/2012 at 01:18 D3xter says:
It doesn’t say “Games for Windows Live” anywhere on the Twisted Shadow Planet page (like it does on the Microsoft Flight or Batman: Arkham City page), so I’m going to assume that you are wrong unless you can prove differently.
Also GFWL is trash, I’ve unfortunately had the displeasure of having to use it for a few titles like Resident Evil 5 and Batman: Arkham Asylum and a few more in the past and I still haven’t bought or played Arkham: AC because of it and Activation Limits, there was a nice picture floating on the web about that: http://www.abload.de/img/dzplmgukur.jpg
It’s really that bad and just a damn chore in general and needs to just die already :/
If you think that Valve “turning to GFWL tomorrow” wouldn’t ensue in the biggest shitstorm in the universe and likely start World War Three you are beyond deluding yourself.
I might still buy this game DESPITE of it and because I signed the petition, but my pleasant anticipation of the title has been killed dead by this…
12/04/2012 at 02:06 PC-GAMER-4LIFE says:
Should have gone to specsavers mate as it says this on the Steam page:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/205730/
“Featuring both local and Games for Windows – LIVE multiplayer game modes.”
“© 2012 Shadow Planet Productions. Multiplayer play and other LIVE features included at no charge; games may offer additional downloads that may require additional fees. LIVE is not available in all countries, visit http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/countries for more information. Features and system requirements may change without notice. Subject to Terms of Use (at http://www.gamesforwindows.com/live/termsofuse). Broadband Internet service required (sold separately). Some broadband services may not work with LIVE and performance may vary. Under 13 requires parental consent. See http://www.gamesforwindows.com/live for full details. ”
MS are also the publisher on Steam store page!
Also just FYI but Arkham City activation limits are set by WB Games for Securom nothing whatsoever to do with GFWL which nowadays has an unlimited GFWL activation limit when the game uses an SSA key like Arkahm City does. Blame WB Games for securom activation limits not GFWL!
As for your shitty pirate bay sourced BAC installation jpegs I can see this is the version you NEVER bought (your real problem with GFWL) as it forces you to actually buy an SP based game if you were savvy enough you would have seen BAC for sale a few days ago for £8.99 digitially!! But I guess you were too busy hating on GFWL to notice the 1 day bank holiday sale price…….
12/04/2012 at 02:59 Lemming says:
Actually it does, look at the bottom in grey after the copyright sign:
“Multiplayer play and other LIVE features included at no charge; games may offer additional downloads that may require additional fees. LIVE is not available in all countries, visit http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/countries for more information. Features and system requirements may change without notice. Subject to Terms of Use (at http://www.gamesforwindows.com/live/termsofuse). Broadband Internet service required (sold separately). Some broadband services may not work with LIVE and performance may vary. Under 13 requires parental consent. See http://www.gamesforwindows.com/live for full details.”
and in the ‘about the game’ section at the top: “Featuring both local and Games for Windows – LIVE multiplayer game modes.”
THIS is why GFWL is a bag of shitcocks. If you use Steam you are penalised instantly because you have to sign into something AGAIN to get to your game. I’ve opened up a digital distribution and community service to BUY your game, why are you making me do the same thing again?
Frankly if Valve turned around and said ‘no more GFWL games on steam’ I wouldn’t blame them.
12/04/2012 at 18:54 HothMonster says:
@PC Gamer
The joke is he goes to the pirate bay after dealing with all that bullshit. The instillation pictures are from a legit install. Pirated games will not run inside steam like that. Not to mention people who pirate the game do not have to activate it or deal with GFWL at all. People who pirate games have 0 issues with GFWL because it isn’t in a pirated copy. But of course only thieves and people stupider than you have problems right?
12/04/2012 at 03:52 HothMonster says:
I almost surprised 50 games worth buying use gfwl. It was my 3rd gfwl game that wasted an insane amount of my time. My hate is grounded in reality.
“Absolutely no piracy,” that is hilarious that people still think any drm does anything to pirates.
12/04/2012 at 03:04 Mordsung says:
Connection problems have nothing to do with why I won’t buy GFWL games. I’ve actually personally never had an issue with stability and connectivity.
The problem is, GFWL is inferior to other similar products. It does everything worse. It provides no benefit over other similar products.
11/04/2012 at 23:41 CaptainHairy says:
GFWL, as shit as it is, is probably the reason we’re getting this at all. I love Dark Souls, so I am willing to overlook GFWL’s steaming pile, because without it and its networking code, chances are the development of the port would have been too expensive to consider for what most large publishers (correctly or not) see as an incredibly risky platform, especially for a comparatively niche title like Dark Souls.
Yes, it sucks that people have to put up with GFWL’s bullshit, but without it, the game probably would never have made the jump to PC in the first place.
12/04/2012 at 00:04 Khemm says:
EXACTLY.
It’s a miracle we’re getting this at all, they simply had to use GFWL because it shares so much net code with the 360 version.
12/04/2012 at 00:08 povu says:
I don’t know how expensive developing netcode is, but considering all the hate towards GFWL I’d almost guess that the money it costs to go with a non-GFWL setup is cheaper than the ‘cost’ of lost sales due to GFWL.
12/04/2012 at 07:38 Khemm says:
That would still take a lot of time and money, not to mention additional testing to ensure everything works. The game has built in LIVE and PSN support, adding support for something drastically different and new wouldn’t be an easy task, I’m sure of it.
12/04/2012 at 00:00 Ridnarhtim says:
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO *Gaaasp* OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
12/04/2012 at 00:01 sneetch says:
Oh well, buying it anyway. I have all the major delivery services on my pc and I can get them all to work for me with varying degrees of pain, but hey at least I don’t have to fiddle with the config.sys and autoexec.bat anymore.
12/04/2012 at 00:01 eclipse mattaru says:
I have no trust for a developer that uses GFWL in this day and age. You need to be REALLY out of touch with our beloved system to insist with that crap.
Suddenly, I foresee plenty of “Press Start”, ridiculous framerate caps, low resolution textures, letterboxing and performance-murdering memory leaks in this one.
12/04/2012 at 00:06 Khemm says:
Fun fact: plenty of Steamworks game are shitty console ports which barely work, and then there are plenty of GFWL games which are awesome ports (see Capcom).
12/04/2012 at 02:18 Delusibeta says:
SSF4AE had shoddy netcode and matchmaking, although considering the only developer who’s capable of making fighting game netcode and matchmaking worth a damn is Arc Systemworks in my experience, that’s probably to be expected.
12/04/2012 at 03:24 eclipse mattaru says:
And who said anything about Steam? I know you have a daily quota of Steam-bashing you need to fill or something, but you’re really pushing it.
What I’m saying is that GFWL is hands down the single most widely hated platform in PC gaming, and it has so many well-documented problems that several gaming websites (this very one included) have dedicated pieces to them.
If a developer *still* chooses to go with it, what they’re telling me is that they are completely out of touch with PC gaming, which leads me to expect the shoddiest kind of port. Maybe I am wrong, as you say, there are a handful of GFWL games that are very well ported, but I’ll have to see it first hand before I believe it.
Also, as many others have pointed out, GFWL always, always fucks up the multiplayer aspect, which happens to have a certain relevance in this one, so things look pretty bad already.
12/04/2012 at 00:14 Lemming says:
It’s a shame that the multiplayer on this is such a big part of the appeal.
With Fallout 3 I just used an unofficial uninstaller to rip GFWL out of it (It’s surprising how much quicker it seemed to load up as well), but that doesn’t look like it’ll be an option here without sacrificing a big part of the game.
The only other thing I ever had with GFWL was Dawn of War 2, but I uninstalled that the minute I’d completed the single player and now just have Retribution with Steamworks.
12/04/2012 at 00:32 FRIENDLYUNIT says:
Sing with me! This is whatchu want, this is whatchu get.
12/04/2012 at 00:39 TwwIX says:
And there goes my interest in this game.
12/04/2012 at 00:41 AlternatePFG says:
I’m not the biggest fan of GFWL (I’ve my issues with it in the past, same with Steam, Origin and any other DRM service in the past) but really, I totally see why Dark Souls uses GFWL. GFWL is similar in framework to Xbox Live, so it’s much easier to port the game from Xbox Live to GFWL than creating a whole new framework for the mutliplayer from scratch.
People call that lazy, but be realistic here. Namco was already iffy on porting it, the petitions gave them reason to do so. However, that still means that ports cost time and money. I’m certain that if the port was too long in the making, people would lose interest. Creating a whole new framework to accommodate Steam would cost more money, and take more time too. FROM isn’t very experienced for porting to PC. They’ve had one other PC port done I believe, and that’s about it.
So I think this is about a reasonable compromise as you would expect. Certainly not ideal, but I believe it was either get it this way, or don’t get it at all.
If the port turns out to be a piece of crap, that’s a different story.
12/04/2012 at 02:46 Lemming says:
How does that explain the PS3 version? They must have access to the game in a form that has no XBL/PSN tie-ins to work from as a base, so why not just port that straight to Steamworks? It’s a lot less hassle than using GFWL and probably having to pay MS a large sum. Steamworks is easy to integrate and transparent which is why it has encouraged so many indie developers, with a built-in community of PC gamers.
12/04/2012 at 08:17 mondomau says:
Somebody feel free to correct me, but I don’t think that’s how console development works for PS3 / Xbox (then PC) titles – they have to be developed entirely separately due to the radically different set up of the hardware. It’s not a case of ‘here’s the basic code, now bolt on the required platform trimmings’.
12/04/2012 at 13:20 Lemming says:
You are right that, at a certain point, the development has to go it’s own way for the PS3. But the raw version of the game is always going to be PC-native. It’s not as if they have to create artwork, audio and game design elements from scratch for the PS3.
12/04/2012 at 01:23 zeroskill says:
Such a shame, i’m having big issues with GFWL to the point where it doesn’t allow me to play my games online that use the “service”. I won’t buy a product that isn’t fit for purpose for me.
12/04/2012 at 01:34 fish99 says:
I notice the click boxes still aren’t lined up with the icons in the GFWL interface. That bug was there the day Fallout 3 launched and it’s still there today.
12/04/2012 at 01:41 des0lar says:
Everyone defending GFWL should just read this:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=25072153&postcount=146
All the justification you need to hate on GFWL. It sucks. The amount of people having problems with GFWL far exceeds the people that have problems with Steam. Goddamit even Microsoft has said GFWL sucks and that they plan to change that in the future so I don’t know why ANYONE would defend the service. They have even removed the storefront because it was simply unneccessery. No one is buying stuff for this thing.
12/04/2012 at 02:15 PC-GAMER-4LIFE says:
You know Neogaf is full of pirates & hateful trolls. Its about the last place you could ever find a balanced opinion. (You obviously did not know if you did then I doubt you would link to it!)
12/04/2012 at 02:28 Delusibeta says:
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. You do realise all of these complaints are well documented:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/03/09/on-the-rocks-games-for-windows-live/
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/8365-Games-for-Windows-FAIL
Considering your other posts in this thread, you’re probably a GfWL fanboy trying to argue that it doesn’t deserve the (justified) criticism by the internet equivalent of urinating in the middle of the road.
12/04/2012 at 03:29 PC-GAMER-4LIFE says:
Those complaints are ridiculous if they cannot get GFWL working they must be seriously incapable of being a PC gamer at all it takes less time to setup once than Steam ever does!!
Open NAT
UPNP Enabled
Setup a gamertag
How hard can it be to do those 3 simple things Steam has a longer list of requirements before it works 100%!!
Knock yourself out here with some FAQs from GFWL:
http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/Live/PC/FAQ#title13
http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/Developers/PC
12/04/2012 at 04:13 HothMonster says:
Step 4) Let it destroy your saved games even when using an offline account for a multitude of ridiculious reasons.
Even wehn you get it working its still broken. Seriously encrypting single player saves and putting the key on what is basically a cookie? Yeah great feature!
12/04/2012 at 05:45 kud13 says:
i’m not even gonna point out how the fact that I have to go on a console website to get support for a Computer product, is a total and utter show of disrespect to PC gamers.
oh, wait. I just did.
I mean, I’m sorry, but it’s the freaking Microsoft we are talking about here. these people have built the framework of the computer age. is it really that hard for them to maintain a dedicated website for a service targetting their operating platform?
also, that Batman: AC poster. that happened to me. when I bought a new PC, and hooked up my external hard-drive which my Steam directory on it. Steam installed fine, without a hitch–I can swap the external between my laptop and desktop with impunity.
But Baman AC, which I already had working on my laptop. through Steam and GFWL. threw a hissy fit. because of GWFL.
EDIT: out of morbid curiousity, i’ve visited both links. provided by PC gamer 4 life.
neither mentions anyhting about opening NAT, or forwarding UPNP.
in order to instal steam, i’ve had to…. use the installer.
in order to install GFWL….. don’t get me started again.
12/04/2012 at 09:54 jrodman says:
You sure love blaming the victim.
12/04/2012 at 01:57 Lars Westergren says:
It’s like seeing a nervous Japanese exchange student at an airport, obviously abroad for the first time. A greasy man walks up to him, claims to be from airport security, and the student should hand over his valuable luggage for safekeeping because there are thieves about. The student gratefully does so before you can stop him.
Now, you can get angry with the him and call him an idiot, but he got the worst of it and the whole situation is just so damn sad.
In this anology, Khemm is the glassy-eyed Hare Krishna.
12/04/2012 at 02:14 DrozzRith says:
Signed with like 50 names, not gonna let this happen
12/04/2012 at 02:21 Lars Westergren says:
Thanks for hurting the cause. Why not create an autoposting bot and make the whole petition *completely* meaningless while you are at it?
12/04/2012 at 02:19 PC-GAMER-4LIFE says:
To anyone dumb enough to sign that petition you do realise that Namco are already using GFWL on Street Fighter x Tekken due next month (a co developed PC game with Capcom Japan) & your petition has zero chance of success all it will do is make Namco disinterested in funding PC ports in future for ungrateful gamers who constantly moan/whine about everything & anything!
Dark Souls is virtually finished now it will be within the MS WHQL labs by early June so I doubt any petition would make the slightest difference it will just make Namco less likely to bother with PC gaming in future like they ignored it for years anyway!
12/04/2012 at 02:32 Lars Westergren says:
Yes, how dare I complain about them including a system which has destroyed my save files multiple times in multiple games, and made other games I’ve bought a hassle or downright impossible to play?
Clearly I should just shut up and be happy about it.
12/04/2012 at 02:50 PC-GAMER-4LIFE says:
No do not be happy about it but blame the developers as they chose to encypt savegames on older GFWL titles but even then its easy to work around just backup the xlive folder on your OS before formatting it as it contains all the data to recover your save game when you copy paste into your new install! As long as you use the same gamertag the save was created it will work everytime.
Back this up folder (windows 7 example):
C:\Users\%USERNAME%\AppData\Local\Microsoft\Xlive
Some developers like to encrypt save games to prevent hacking/cheating or limit piracy by binding the savegame to the gamertag it was saved with but no GFWL game for a long time has save files you cannot recover (Halo2 & gears Of War1 are the only 2 which you cannot move save files on as they are cloud based as you guessed it GFWL supported cloud saves since 2008 but few devs bother using that feature so no-one knows about it!).
12/04/2012 at 05:14 HothMonster says:
“No do not be happy about it but blame the developers as they chose to encypt savegames on older GFWL titles”
Bull, they do it to prevent save game trading because then people could cheat their gamerscore. Personally I think the better option would be to ditch the useless gamerscore, or let cheaters cheat as they still can in-game anyway, instead they just waste peoples time.
MS does that, no sane developer would request it. Especially for single player only games like the batmans.
12/04/2012 at 02:35 Pointless Puppies says:
Seems like a lot of people think that some suit in a large, oval table sat down and went “Right. Online functionality. I googled how to do it and this ‘Games for Windows Live’ popped up. Do that”, which obviously didn’t happen.
To the people crying “why!?!? It’s 2012!!” It’s this: GFWL is an easy to use API for devs to port from 360 to PC. In case you haven’t realized it, this isn’t going to be a super dedicated project with full mod support and high res texture packs.
From hasn’t exactly been very experienced with the PC industry as of late, nor are they a huge studio with copious amounts of funding and a “when it’s done” release schedule. You tell me what you’d do if you’re porting a game to a platform you haven’t coded for in over 10 years and are expected to complete the project in a few months. If you say you’ll bet your mother’s life that you’ll never use the easiest API to handle some of the online implementation among other things (GFWL) because it’s evil and it once deleted some guy’s save file for some random game, you’re insane and/or lying.
If you give me two choices, one with Dark Souls for PC but saddled with GFWL and the other being no Dark Souls for PC at all (which what would’ve happened had it not been for that petition), I’m going to pick the former any day of the week. This is fucking Namco we’re talking about, the same studio that refuses to TRANSLATE a bunch of their games to English because it’s too much work (the ports are DONE, it’s just the translation and they still refuse to do it). The fact that this company is porting an entire game to PC, from a PETITION no less, is an complete anomaly. So put the pitchforks down for put aside the anti-GFWL crusade for ONE second, okay?
12/04/2012 at 02:56 kungfucolin says:
Great comment.
It’s a shame that there are so many people here who are clearly being disingenuous. It would be nice if people were a little more honest about their reasoning. The clear perception of GFWL does not equal the reality.
I believe if people were being more honest, they would say something like: “I want it to come out on steam, because if so, I’m sure I can grab it at a very low price at some point”
12/04/2012 at 03:15 Pointless Puppies says:
Well, people have been trained for quite a while to develop a Pavlovian hatred for GFWL. As in, those five words (or letters) being anywhere in the press release and people start foaming at the mouth. Of course, it’s not absolutely baseless given all the times game saves simply disappear, but plenty of people here aren’t keeping their expectations realistic when it comes to this particular game. Its online is really quite unique and as such the netcode is most likely pretty unique as well. I’m not angry at all that From gets to use the GFWL API to facilitate getting that unique online system to work, because without it the chances of getting this game on the PC would’ve been much lower.
I said it in another comment, but the very fact we’re getting this game at all is an absolute miracle given the publisher and the circumstances in which it was greenlit. And now we’re bitching that this miracle, while miraculous, isn’t super DUPER miraculous, and therefore WE REFUSE TO BUY IT RABBLE RABBLE.
Seems awfully petty.
12/04/2012 at 08:53 mondomau says:
While you make an excellent point about the most likely reason Namco have gone with GfWL (and I am in total agreement with you – it’s a logical choice), I feel you are conflating two separate issues here – regardless of why it is GfWL, it is clear a lot of people have good cause to be upset / worried that this greatly anticipated product is going to be attached to a service with a proven track record of fuck ups.
Does that mean they have a right to make further demands of the publisher? No. Does it mean they are being straight up ridiculous in claiming this is some bungling money-whore corporate decision? Yup.
What it doesn’t mean is that they have no right to complain or be annoyed by this turn of events, or that they are being ‘entitled’ for doing so.
12/04/2012 at 05:01 kud13 says:
I would prefer a “when it’s done” schedule for the port, with a DRM scheme that does not involve hours of chanting and praying to make GaWFL client update itself from the x-box site which is conveniently down when I want to play my PC game, having never touched M$oft’s playbox in my life.
note i’m not expecting them to go DRM free-i’m not naive, and I don’t expect a console-centric publisher to appreciate it being a pita and issue for pC gamers.
but if I have to put up with DRM, i’d rather it be somehting I can trust to work 95% of the time, over somehtign that (in my experience), works 50% of the time, and only 25% of the time without me putting in extra effort.
12/04/2012 at 18:31 Tams80 says:
I think more people need to learn to compromise. The fact that we’re getting the game alone, let alone due to a petition is enough.
If From Software/Namco Bandai start offering more PC games/ports, maybe then would be a better time to reasonably and politely ask if if we could more than GfWL. That said, if Dark Souls doesn’t have any GfWL issues then I don’t see why it would be worth it using other platforms that would require time and money to develop for. Nobody would be able to validly make the argument that this would stifle competition either as I’m fairly sure other retailers can sell product keys.
I think it would be best to keep complaints about GfWL only for if Dark Souls has issues and then only if they aren’t fixed fairly quickly.
12/04/2012 at 23:55 eclipse mattaru says:
>> From hasn’t exactly been very experienced with the PC industry as of late, nor are they a huge studio with copious amounts of funding and a “when it’s done” release schedule. You tell me what you’d do if you’re porting a game to a platform you haven’t coded for in over 10 years and are expected to complete the project in a few months.
How about dong the exact same thing the Alan Wake guys did? Because the situation seems awfully similar.
12/04/2012 at 02:50 Muzman says:
Prepare to crack, is more like it.
12/04/2012 at 02:54 Lars Westergren says:
@PointlessPuppies
> GFWL is an easy to use API for devs to port from 360 to PC.
This is a claim that often pops up, and I have to ask you, do you have any evidence that this is the case or are you just assuming that this is easier than, say, steamworks?
> The fact that this company is porting an entire game to PC, from a PETITION no less, is an complete anomaly.
So we helped them take a business decision once, perhaps we can do it again?
12/04/2012 at 03:24 PC-GAMER-4LIFE says:
http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/Developers/PC
http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/Live/PC/FAQ#title13
“How much effort does it cost to develop for Games for Windows — LIVE?
The Games for Windows — LIVE development process is streamlined to offer significant cost savings to you, the publisher. There are a total of 5 API calls to get the Guide up and running and the code interacting with the LIVE service is almost identical to Xbox 360 code. Over 85% of the APIs are identical between Xbox LIVE and Games for Windows — LIVE. If your title has an Xbox 360 SKU, the investment to implement Games for Windows — LIVE is minimal. In fact, using other online gaming platforms will result in an increased risk and cost.
The Games for Windows — LIVE SDK provides all of the components and tools you need to successfully develop with the platform, and extensive documentation is available both with the SDK and also online to make your experience as painless as possible.
In addition, the same developer support infrastructure is available as with Xbox 360. Game developer support is available to assist you with any issues and engineering assistance is available including site visits and architectural review through XNA Developer Connection.”
12/04/2012 at 03:51 Shooop says:
Remember Sony used to call their PS3 the most powerful computing machine on the planet when it appeared but actual PCs were already ahead of it. They kind of have to hype their own product because they want people to use it.
What we need is a developer who’s worked with a GFWL game.
12/04/2012 at 07:24 Lars Westergren says:
Thanks for taking the effort, but I was hoping for a comparison, not just marketing material.
12/04/2012 at 23:54 eclipse mattaru says:
Seriously, you’re using a Microsoft FAQ to bolster your argument? You do realize that is PR-talk of the most transparent sort, right?
12/04/2012 at 03:52 Pointless Puppies says:
^What PC-GAMER-4LIFE above me said.
Perhaps Namco would listen, but I highly doubt it. I don’t have a huge problem with the petition itself, mostly just the knee-jerk gamers “NO BUY. EVER. $5 ONLY. PIECE OF SHIT IS LITERALLY THE WORST THING EVER”. That’s just unnecessary and won’t do anything but drive Namco away from doing this in the future.
12/04/2012 at 18:37 Tams80 says:
Could I just say that you’ve provided even less evidence to support your points.
12/04/2012 at 02:55 yourgrandma says:
Thanks to GFWL i have lost my saves twice in gears of war twice in lost planet and in kayne and lynch. This problem still exists and has happened in recent games like batman arkham city. This is reason enough alone to not bother with any GFWL game. Do you seriously expect me to trust my saves to GFWL in this balls to the walls hard game?
12/04/2012 at 03:21 Shooop says:
I’m amazed you actually got to play Gears of War on PC enough to get two saves.
I had that game and it ran only the first time I installed it. And then never again.
12/04/2012 at 07:54 Khemm says:
Did you switch between online and offline profiles?
12/04/2012 at 08:44 yourgrandma says:
Nope kept one single offline profile for all 3 games. Funny it has happened in both xp and windows 7 as well.
12/04/2012 at 03:20 Shooop says:
Why are people asking for Steamworks instead of no DRM instead?
12/04/2012 at 04:01 Baresark says:
I think they are asking for it because the matchmaking tends to be better and Steamworks hasn’t in recent memory broken any aspects of games. Where GFWL has. And also, the likely hood of a major game release being DRM free is next to nothing. It just makes more sense to ask for the lesser of two evils.
12/04/2012 at 09:15 Xan says:
Because it has a multiplayer framework with matchmaking similar to GFWL and as such would work fine for the game.
I’d prefer the game with no DRM at all but seems GFWL will stay because they didn’t code a different option for online.
12/04/2012 at 03:29 DOLBYdigital says:
Noooo!! I actually haven’t had any issues with GFWL (knocks on wood) but I just know this will lead to much less sales for this game which makes me a sad panda! I wanted this game to sell well so others would see that petitions and kickstarters can lead to successful games.
Maybe I should start another petition that just asks developers to stop using GFWL… Why has no one done this yet, imagine if a petition against GFWL got a couple hundred thousand signatures… maybe a few devs would listen?!
*I should clarify that I am definitely buying this game regardless. I desperately want more games like this on the PC!
12/04/2012 at 03:45 Pointless Puppies says:
@Lemming:
The point is that the 360 version netcode is already there, and GFWL specifically makes netcode working on the 360 easier to port. Using the PS3′s netcode on the PC would be harder.
12/04/2012 at 03:56 Baresark says:
That is a hugely stupid mixed basket. Did you know that GFWL doesn’t actually stop piracy at all. It has zero countermeasures for piracy. You can just sign into an offline profile and play a pirated game for free without even worrying about a crack. I’ll deal with it as long as it does not make the game unplayable (still kinda pissed about WH40K:DOW2). I like the idea of petition for no GFWL, but it’s worded horribly. I would prefer a petition that just states how unpopular that particular DRM platform is. At very least if we get a future release of a sequel, they should know how much PC gamers hate that. I will still grudgingly buy this with GFWL on it.
But what they are doing is ensuring that they do not get a lot of pre-orders……. I almost want to wait for release to see how they handle PC features and controls. They have practically zero experience with PC games afterall.
12/04/2012 at 07:51 Khemm says:
GFWL has Zero Day Piracy Protection, which prevents the game from being launched before release date and its online part is very secure. There are plenty of cracked Steamworks games you can play online, but GFWL online mode has not been bypassed (they fixed the CD key exploit a long time ago).
12/04/2012 at 04:01 Sythonz says:
Buying this day 1 regardless of GFWL or not, surely a great game is worth putting up with it?
12/04/2012 at 09:48 Ysellian says:
GFWL won’t stop me from getting this game as it didn’t stop me from getting Batman either, but the savegame issue is VERY real and not overblown sadly. I have lost save games myself and it’s not something I would want to have occur to me in a difficult game like Dark Souls.
12/04/2012 at 04:17 Demiath says:
*Sigh*, here we go again. I guess it’s just awkward old contrarian me, but there have sure been a lot of moments like this in recent times. First the heated response to Dragon Age 2, then the massive praise of Witcher 2, then the unprecedented campaign against Mass Effect 3′s ending and now I once again I feel utterly alienated from large parts of the rest of the PC community (at least as it presents itself on RPS), which insists on taking principled positions I frankly can’t even begin to comprehend.
Sure, complain all you want about the inclusion of an all admittedly rather annoying and occasionally truly problematic form of DRM. But a “deal-breaker” even for those of us who really respect the gameplay and have been signing petitions and spamming Namco Bandai about a PC ports for months on end? Come the f**k on, people…
12/04/2012 at 04:42 JohnH says:
Yeaaaaah, GFWL = no sale. If I want my savegames to mysteriously disappear over night I’ll just format my harddrive. And I’ll rather bang my head against the wall for an hour than try getting two GFWL clients to connect after having tried that before in other games.
12/04/2012 at 09:23 Milky1985 says:
Unfortantly comments liek that will destory any chance of a petion working again.
This is the one chance PC gamers have to say “OK thanks for releasing it, we don’t like your choice of GFWL so don’t do it again, but buying this one”, showing that we can be reasonable.
RIght now the PC gamer market is looking like a spoiled child “But mummy i wanted THAT ONE WAHHHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH”
12/04/2012 at 10:31 Unaco says:
“This is the one chance PC gamers have to say “OK thanks for releasing it, we don’t like your choice of GFWL so don’t do it again, but buying this one”, showing that we can be reasonable.”
Or Namco comes away thinking they can shovel out any sort of shoddy port and we’ll lap it up. If we don’t make a hoo-ha about this just now, do you really think the next game from From will have a proper, dedicated port, without GFWL? Or will it get developed alongside the console versions and they’ll say “Hey, a lazy port with GFWL tacked on worked fine last time… why change?”
12/04/2012 at 05:28 thebigJ_A says:
So, can they do like The Witcher 2, only in reverse, and give us 360/PS3 owners the new goodies? Please?
I want to know what the deal is with that dragon. A dragon in good shape like that is very important with regards to the lore.
12/04/2012 at 10:32 Unaco says:
Only if you accept GFWL on your consoles. Sorry… sacrifice and all.
12/04/2012 at 19:53 HothMonster says:
Microsoft doesn’t allow free DLC on xbox live over some minuscule size. So there will most likely not be a free expansion for xbox owners. If they were going to do it for PS3 they probably would have announced it at the same time.
12/04/2012 at 05:35 Wedge says:
Already expected this, the simplest port path is from 360 to PC, and they’re not exactly swimming in resources or experience to do a PC version. I’m just hoping it runs well and has proper graphics options.
12/04/2012 at 06:03 Kuroko says:
I need this game and I need to see it in proper high resolution and smooth frame rate, I also want to see the new areas, bosses and pvp, and also want to support that a game like this is coming to PC, so I will buy it, no matter what.
I know that GFWL Sucks, and their decision angers me, but if the petition says “Steam or no sale”, I just can’t sign it, because I would be lying. The game is worth it.
12/04/2012 at 06:49 bill says:
hahahhhahahahaa… that’s delicious.
Is this game just hitting big monsters?
12/04/2012 at 06:56 shopshop1 says:
http://goshoppingo.com so cool for business and earn money
12/04/2012 at 07:33 Matindo says:
I won’t be buying it and it’s sad because instead of realising why people didn’t buy it, Namco are probably just going to blame pirates.
12/04/2012 at 08:27 lurtze1 says:
I would rather have Origin then GFWL and I am a steam fanboy.
12/04/2012 at 08:38 Innovacious says:
All this talk about steam users being fanboys and hating everyone else :(
I agree there are some like that, i myself don’t want Origin, but for other reasons. Steam came first, i have a lot of games on it, i don’t want a SECOND program for managing my games. gog, gamersgate, d2d are all fine, i used to use d2d a lot actually. They are all fine because they don’t have a program you need to manage and run them. I can just add the shortcut to steam so everything is on one location. And in some cases, i can even activate those games on steam.
While i can add GFWL games to the steam list in the same way (and some of those games are on steam). I have had problems with GFWL in the past, in a majority of the games it comes with. “Oh its changed” people say, then they jump to conclusions and assume i havent used it since fallout 3 (which i lost saves in). But i have, i have had problems recently with arkham city and gotham city imposters (curse you batman!).
I signed the petition. Perhaps its changed somewhere along the line, it looks like it “recommends” steamworks over gfwl to me, not demands, its just giving them an option. But really, what other widespread system is there that can support multiplayer interactions without creating their own? Gamespy? Nobody wants that. This goes deeper than just a DRM argument, its handling the games multiplayer aspect.
12/04/2012 at 08:51 absolofdoom says:
Oh great!
>Company uses widely known shit system
>Many people who wanted it now steer clear
>Company declares that it wasn’t worth it, PC gamers are a bunch of bloody pirates
>Collective groan the internet wide
12/04/2012 at 09:13 Xan says:
Yeah it’s really sad that this will be the reality. I’d rather have the game have SecuROM with an activation limit then GFWL :/
12/04/2012 at 09:35 Khemm says:
Except if thieves use GFWL as an excuse to steal the game, then companies are 100% right.
12/04/2012 at 13:41 HothMonster says:
Keep parroting that shit khemm. He like the others that said it mean that lost sales due to gfwl will be blamed on piracy instead of their choice in using gfwl. Not that he is now going to pirate it.
Pirates are going to pirate no matter what. If those pirates need to make up shitty excuses to sleep well at night, oh well. But someone who would have bought the game now won’t.
12/04/2012 at 09:05 The Sombrero Kid says:
If you buy a game with GfWL in it, you deserve to have GfWL inflicted upon you.
12/04/2012 at 09:20 kud13 says:
’tis true. I gave in to temptation and bought Arkham CIty at 50% off during the holidays. I’ve paid my penance on one PC, but I’ve barely begun to do so on another.
12/04/2012 at 09:10 Xan says:
“while highly obnoxious and certainly worthy of discouragement – shouldn’t be the sole reason droves of people steer clear of a wonderful game.”
Sorry but it is the sole reason to steer clear of this game, wanna know why? Because I can’t even buy it thanks to GFWL.
So yeah there goes another lost sale and I bet the game will do poorly on PC and piracy will be blamed again instead of FUCKING STUPID DRM
12/04/2012 at 09:24 Milky1985 says:
you forgot to add elitest PC gaming jerks, who have a daily mail like mentality of making small issues bigger than they are and in many cases have no experience of the thing they are outraged with.
12/04/2012 at 09:43 kud13 says:
except they don’t. GaWFL has a track record of terrible support. there’s a Reddit thread referenced earlier–one of their tech support guys talked a bit about his job. there are 15 tech support reps for the entire region of North America. Microsoft makes zero effort to support GaWFL, to find any kind of answers to its legendary update issues, one must look on the Xbox site, which helpfully starts to give you advice on how to fix your console. When GaWFL tells me I need to update my client, online, and accept a new ToS, online, and neither site i’m being sent to is working, there is a problem. When I have to spend hours trawling the internet, looking for ways to INSTALL the GaWFL client, with a version that works and doesn’t crash 30% through installation, there is amajor problem.
Look, few people are actively [i]blaming [/i] NAmco for the choice of DRM. it’s well understood–they are Japanese, they are console-centric, they don’t know PC games, the fact that we got the game is a miracle, I get it. However.
with going through with the PC port, Namco are making a statement. it is “We want PC gamers as customers. We want their money”.
If I am willing to be a paying customer, I feel it is my right evaluate the product i’m offered to determine if my perceived value of it matches the asking price. In this particular case, the choice of DRM devalues the product, because I will almost inevitably have to spend a few hours performing shamanistic rituals in front of my PC to achieve the perfect planetary alignment in which there is a direct link between the XboXLive servers, my PC, and the GaWFL servers (if such a thing exists–I mean, there appears to be such a thing, but by august? who knows), allowing me to successfully update the client, so that I may choose one of my several offline accounts, and be able to play my single-player game in peace. this particular prospect lowers the value of the game for me, most likely way below the asking price, if the other rumours (iffy controls) prove to be true.
Now, since I realise that we are facig a miracle,, etc, I would like to support the developer, and I would like to send them a message that they should entertain further titles on PC< because variety=good. As such, I feel i'm perfectly within my rights to communcate to them that, while I appreciate their gesture, their choice of DRM may affect me in such a way so as to make their asking price upalatable to the extent that I will not buy the game.
12/04/2012 at 10:13 Xan says:
Look my issue with GFWL is that I CANT BUY THE GAME. That’s it. GFWL simply dosen’t work for me.
12/04/2012 at 09:33 Khemm says:
GFWL in itself isn’t DRM… It’s just a service providing online functionality, achievements and automatic patching.
The only (optional) DRM mechanism GFWL has is ZDPP – one time activation to prevent the game from leaking before release.
12/04/2012 at 09:50 kud13 says:
except half the time “online functionality” includes “ability to save progress”.
and yes, I know about (and use exclusively) the offline mode, that’s not the issue for me, never was. the issue is that the way the client itself is integrated into games and the motherF%&*ING UPDATE PROCESS, Which makes me want to slaughter things. Which is a hurdle I must needs climb over at snail’s pace roughly once in 8 months when I am sufficiently tempted to try a game that is riddled with GaWFL.
Although I haven’t played any of EA’s recent (last 4 years) releases, and am thus, perhaps, a poor judge, I will add that my experience with Origin, both as “EA Download Manager” and as Origin following its rebirth, has been completely hassle-free. but, once again, I own two EA games–Dragon Age: origins, and Mass Effect, and only played one of them, so i’m a poor judge here.
12/04/2012 at 10:18 Khemm says:
I agree that patching should occur before the game is lauched, and it seems GFWL might evolve in this direction – Age of Empires Online gets patched that way, last time I played it.
I admit GFWL isn’t perfect, but it’s a minor inconvenience in the grand scheme of things – we’re getting the PC version of Dark Souls, it’s incredible! It took the PC community a lot of effort to achieve that goal, I can’t imagine anyone who really wanted this game changing his mind now.
12/04/2012 at 10:38 kud13 says:
lol, Khemm, we appear to have radically fdifferent views on the value and issues involved.
you have tons of problems with Steam’s offline mode. I can’t recall ever having those. You have great experience with GaWFL. 75% of the games that I have that use it have cost me hours of my life to get them to work.
We place different values on these things. I like the idea of Dark Souls coming to PC. I like the ideas behind many of the (usually PS3 centric, and japanese in origin) console games, and I feel its a shame so few get ported. I’d love to support the initiative. of Namco. However.
I am not forgetting that I am a paying customer. This is a 2-way relationship, and in exchange for my money, I would like a quality product.
And given my experince with GaWFL, the fact that Dark Sould will be using it does a lot to deflate its value for me. Does that make me shallow? possibly. But i’m at a stage in my life where I value my time and money. And though I support Dark Souls in principle, i’m not super-duper-excited, it’s not a dream come true, and as such, in my personal opinion, its value, whilst pretty high, is subject to serious quality considerations, since it is a game of a genre i’m mildly interested in.
Edit: I’d like to stress once again, I’m not blaming Namco, or From Software for including GaWFL. nonetheless, it is a consideration that will play a role in my decision when I decide whether the value of the product (influenced by quality considerations, such as the state of the port and GaWFL) matches their asking price.
12/04/2012 at 11:00 Khemm says:
I’m honestly wondering what bugs people encountered that forced to try to make their games work for HOURS.
You install a game, launch it, hit Home key, choose offline profile and play or online profile and log in. That’s how it should work, at least in theory.
12/04/2012 at 15:04 Shooop says:
Do you put conscious effort into learning nothing Khemm? It really looks like sometimes.
The problem isn’t how GFWL works in theory, it’s how it actually ends up working: for many people, not at all. Your problems with Steam are exactly what some people experience with GFWL.
12/04/2012 at 15:20 suibhne says:
Well, Khemm…I can honestly say I’ve wasted at least two hours of my life on GfWL, because it’s caused at least 30 minutes of downtime for each of four games I purchased which used it. A fifth game, Bulletstorm, worked fine for me. My problems have seemed mostly due to GfWL’s godawful update process, which rarely works; I think Bulletstorm was smooth sailing only because I played it shortly after another GfWL (Bioshock 2, I think?) which had already eaten up over a half-hour of my life simply to get the client updated and recognizing my account. For both Batman:AA and Batman:AC, I had to repeatedly reset my account pw because I kept encountering an error through which my account worked fine on MS’s (multiple, misleading) websites, worked fine in the GfWL standalone client, and yet was not recognized by the GfWL wrapper in the game. Absolutely ridiculous bs that required me to finally delete some hidden files and force them to be recreated.
On top of that, savegames in GfWL’s offline mode haven’t always been usable in online mode, wasting even more of my life.
I get that you hate Steam. Jeez, how could anyone miss that fact? But defending GfWL is just downright unhinged. I hate to impute motives, but I can’t imagine why anyone would maintain such a pro-GfWL position unless they were simply trying to stake out an even stronger rhetorical position against Steam.
12/04/2012 at 17:08 Lekker Pain says:
I have to register for the sake of letting you know, that it’s pointless to waste a breath on this guy.
He defends Ubisoft DRM for christ sake!
12/04/2012 at 13:49 HothMonster says:
What are you talking about? Not being able to save single player games unless you are signed in and encrypting locally stored saved games is drm.
12/04/2012 at 09:39 zakihashi says:
So I just wen’t to my Xbox.com profile page, to check which games I have played to use GFWL, and it’s quiet a bit of them:
The Club, Gears of War, Resident Evil 5, Flatout UC, AoE Online, Fable III, Section 8 Prejudice, Red Faction Guerrilla, Universe at War, Dawn of War 2, Bulletstorm, GTA IV(horrible, but not GFWL’s fault) Dead Rising 2, Bioshock 2, Lost Planet 2, Super Street Fighter 4, Batman Arkham City, Batman Arkham Asylum. That’s 18 games, Batman ARkham Asylum I still got my save file from Day 1, and I just had to check it, so I started it, it had an update, and it took about 30 sec to update it, and my save files worked just as well as on day one.
I have never had an GFWL issue a single time, and when I launch a new game, I need to put in a cd key, and I never see GWFL again. It logs in during one of those videos in the start, and I never see it. I got the toasts of, so I never see that either for achivments. Really, if this service is so horrible and almost every gamer in the world got issues with it, its’ funny how none of my 18 games have had a single issue. Even my saves works in offline mode.
I can not see this is a deal breaker, I’d rather see no GFWL, no Steamworks, and no Originworks(or what it’s called), but if any of them are included, I’d still buy it, even if I prefer having my game clean, which is why gamersgate is my choice of store.
Steam is pretty junkish, which on both my systems slows down when I end up with around 80 installed games on Steam, Imagine trying to play Dark Souls with Steamworks in offline mode hu? That’d be fun, since the offline mode is so “great”.
Come to think of it, I think I’d rather have GFWL then Steamworks.
12/04/2012 at 09:57 kud13 says:
to each his own. of the 4 GaWFL games I own and played
(DoW2,+ first expansion, Bioshock2, Batman: AA and Batman: AC), the only one that did not result in me having serious issues starting the game was DoW2. I have Fallout 3 yet to play, and before I do I intend to patch is with xliveless. Same thing if I ever get around to GTAVI
on the other hand, I don’t think I can recall having issues starting Steam in offline mode. Ever. because, I keep it offline all the time. unless I’m buying/browsing the store/downloading.
as such, we are entitled to our own opinions, but to me, presence of GaWFL severely undermines the value of the product.
12/04/2012 at 09:52 Silvermarch says:
I would rather have a system that have a working offline mode (i.e Origin and GFWL) than one that don’t.
12/04/2012 at 15:33 Ravenger says:
Origin doesn’t have an offline mode that works for BF3 (Single player) or ME3. Sure, with ME3 you can play the vanilla game offline, but if you have any DLC you need a constant internet connection. It’s appalling.
12/04/2012 at 10:12 RegisteredUser says:
We just had a huge comment thread about the Bulletstorm thing also getting ruined by GFWL.
How idiotic is the industry, really?
12/04/2012 at 10:17 Unaco says:
As idiotic as customers let them get away with being?
12/04/2012 at 10:13 frightlever says:
Probably been said, but who can read all these comments. Obviously they’re already working with Microsoft to get the multiplayer aspects of the game working over Xbox Live, so the path of least resistance is working with Microsoft again on the PC version – that is going to be a lot less fraught than starting from scratch with Steamworks, or having to set up their OWN multiplayer infrastructure. And remember that Dark Souls IS very much a multiplayer game.
I’m definitely interested to see DS on PC, but… GFWL + the legendary difficulty/time commitment means it’s very much a buy it cheap in a couple of years type of game for me.
12/04/2012 at 10:36 Rebel44 says:
I refuse to buy any game that use GFWL.
12/04/2012 at 10:57 Khemm says:
So you have no idea what it is, don’t use it, but bitch anyway. OK.
12/04/2012 at 14:13 Conor says:
Or…maybe he/she does know what it is, has used it before, and that experience is what has made him/her dislike it.
Just a thought.
12/04/2012 at 15:06 Shooop says:
I guess it’s safe to assume you don’t know what Steam is then since you complain about it too.
Haha, making head-in-ass stupid assumptions is easy and fun!
12/04/2012 at 10:46 Bork Titflopsen says:
I’ve had mixed experiences with GFWL. On one hand I’m unable to play Section 8: Prejudice MP at all, but on the other hand Gotham City Imposters works perfectly and GFWL is no hindrance at all.
“But Bork,” you say “Not being able to play a game you bought is a bad thing!” While this is true, I lost 5 games on Steam for no apparent reason other than not having used the account in a few years and the games just not being there anymore.
Sure, GFWL is seen as the worse of two evils, but wait untill the damn game is out and see what problems it has before you decide not to buy it, FFS! The fact the game is coming to pc at all is a goddamn miracle.
12/04/2012 at 10:56 Khemm says:
Thank you for making sense.
12/04/2012 at 10:53 Mavvvy says:
Nothing and no one can ruin this for me, just getting it on a pc is amazing. Games for Windows valves watergate……same drink from a different tap and like cheap beer I’ve gotten used to it.
12/04/2012 at 11:27 Angel Dust says:
As much as an annoyance GFWL can be at times (I’ve been lucky enough to never have anything catastrophic happen) I’m still buying this day 1 because Demon’s Souls was the best game I’d played in years and the chance to play it’s spiritual successor on my chosen platform is not something I’m going to pass up.
12/04/2012 at 11:35 Xan says:
Also for people saying the game should be DRM free and not on Steam.
Here’s an argument for Steam : MASSIVE SALES, every time any game goes 50% off sale on Steam the devs tend to make more money then what they made from launch to that sale.. Valve only posted sales data once or twice, one example was for Left 4 Dead going on 75% sale, it increased the sales by 3000% yes 3000% that’s not a typo. Something like this does not happen on GFWL.
Basicly the devs could make back the money used for making a proper port and even get some profit out of it over a longer period.
12/04/2012 at 11:42 MerseyMal says:
Not a huge fan of GFWL, but never had a single issue with it either. Looking forward to finally playing this game.
12/04/2012 at 12:14 Ninjovich says:
GFWL or not, i’m gonna buy this game.
Signed the petition for it to come to the PC, they complied.
It’s enough for me for now, one victory a time so to say :P
I really don’t think they are the right ones to make this fight with.
12/04/2012 at 13:14 Mordsung says:
Then they should be informing us who the ones to fight are.
Only we, the gamers, can ensure that companies know what we want.
Now, demanding Steamworks on every game is not kosher either. There are other competitors, many of them just as good.
But GFWL is unacceptable and only we can ensure the development community learns this.
We, PC gamers, fight hard for our console. We’re commonly dismissed by bigger publishers. Games are ported in sorry states. We definitely should not switch from “fight mode” to “grovel in thanks” mode when a developer gives in.
A war is a series of battles. This isn’t a war about PC dominance or anything silly like that, it’s simply a war about being treated respectably as a player base. It’s a war about showing developers they can sell just as much on PC as on consoles, but they must show us the same respect they show to other platforms.
Would the PS3 community be up in arms if a PS3 game was shipped with Xbox 360′s interface? With Xbox 360 button prompts? No, they’d be furious. Xbox gamers would be the same if a PS3 interface and button prompts made it onto their console.
GFWL is an unacceptable platform. It is inferior to it’s competitors and MSFT makes no effort to improve it. They even shut down the dedicated GFWL sight and blended the phone support back into their Xbox 360 support.
We won one battle by getting Dark Souls on PC. The war still rages, another battle looms. We are fighting to make Dark Souls a better game. Sales will decrease as a result of GFWL.
If we want more From Software stuff on PC, we have to ensure they market it in such a way where it will sell. It will suffer from their current choice of platform.
We, as gamers… correction. We, as CONSUMERS, should NEVER consider what we’re given as “enough”. We are the ones that pay their cheques. Capitalism is based on the consumer having the power.
Informing a publisher they’re making a bad decision is not an entitlement problem, nor a steam “fanboy” problem (not saying you said either, but they’ve been said in the thread), it is healthy capitalism.
12/04/2012 at 13:15 Mordsung says:
by console, I meant platform. Herp derp.
12/04/2012 at 12:59 suibhne says:
I’ve played five games that required GfWL in the last few years. One of them actually worked with no fuss – Bulletstorm. For each of the other four, I had to spend at least 30 minutes, no exaggeration, getting GfWL to work before I could even play the game for the first time.
And in exchange for what? GfWL’s services ecosystem basically sucks, and the savegame management is a major detraction rather than a benefit. Heck, it’s the reason I lost over 25 hours of gameplay in Batman:AC after migrating to a new computer. (No, consumers shouldn’t have to use a third-party decryption utility nor spend a half-hour on Google to figure out how that can be fixed. I’ve built my own computers for over a decade, but there simply wasn’t an easy way to solve this GfWL encryption problem when I first encountered it – so I gave up and just gave my (physical) copy of Batman:AC to a friend, thus robbing the publisher of an additional sale.)
12/04/2012 at 13:03 BobbleHat says:
Personally I’ve not had any problems with GFWL, but I can see a lot of people are angry about this so it’ll no doubt hurt sales. Surely whoever decided to use it knew the general consensus on which is the least unpopular form of DRM.
12/04/2012 at 17:05 Tams80 says:
Does GfWL still have problems with offline saves. That and having the look of that MSN XP program (the ingame overlay UI) were the only problems I’ve had with it. It seems it varies with game to game though.
12/04/2012 at 17:12 Brun says:
Just playing devil’s advocate here, but has anyone considered the possibility that they want to use GFWL because it sort of mirrors the functionality of Xbox Live? It’s possible that GFWL has a similar back-end architecture as the Xbox Live system, which would minimize the porting effort.
12/04/2012 at 17:25 kud13 says:
a whole bunch of people considered that.
it’d be a fine argument, if not for the fact that M$oft will not give too shits about supporitng the GaWFL network, it is bug-ridden, causes ridiculous amount of issues for a signifcant portion of its userbase, and M$oft has done nothing to improve it, hoping this will drive more people to just use their playboxes instead.
12/04/2012 at 17:26 Brun says:
I understand that. But being an almost exclusively console-oriented publisher, it’s quite possible that Namco does not.
12/04/2012 at 17:43 kud13 says:
which is why I (and many others) aren’t blaming them. By signing the petition, we are simply indicating our position as consumers–putting GaWFL in your product reduces its value to us. Quite possibly below your asking price.
IF Namco wants my money (and they shoul,d since I signed the first petition), they may consider the costs/benefits. I’m not sure it’ll work out in a manner we will both be pleased in, but it’s my choice as a consumer to make a statement.
12/04/2012 at 17:25 Zarunil says:
I spent hours troubleshooting Warhammer 40K before getting it to work, and gave up on Age of Empires Online. Every game with GFWL has given me issues, so I hope they decide against using it.
12/04/2012 at 18:21 Kefren says:
I’d like to see it on GOG. Would then buy it in advance.
12/04/2012 at 18:23 Tom Servo says:
I have 11 GFWL games and only had serious problems with one of them (GTA4) not running. GTA4 didn’t seem that interesting to me so I never pursued trying to fix it much. GFWL was terrible when it started and its auto-patching is still horrid but I wouldn’t not buy a game because of it. I still won’t touch Origin due to its spying on me but I’m finding myself agreeing with those that say most people complaining about GFWL probably haven’t tried it in several years. I think it does make the community look bad when everyone complains for this game to be ported, beyond all hope it actually works and now everyone says they’re going to boycott it. I will be buying day one. Steam is hardly perfect either, I tried to play Borderlands last week for the first time in a few months and it said I didn’t have a key. Until GOG’s no DRM policy hopefully takes over, we are stuck with this middleware crap.
12/04/2012 at 22:44 kud13 says:
batman: AC came out 5 months a go on the PC.
google “Batman: Arkaham City Games For Windows Live problems”. enlighten yourself.
look, just because, you, Khemm, and others never had problems with GaWFL, doesn’t mean all thos ecomplaining about it are liars or “steam fanboys”.
You’ve had 1/11 problems with GaWFL. great, congrats. I’ve had 3/4 games waste hours of my life to get GaWFL to work properly. the most recent time was 4 months ago, on a brand-new PC. after it took me about 15 minutes to make my entire steam catalogue (except for the GaFWL games in it) work perfectly of an external hard drive that houses my Steam, my GamersGate install files, and my GoG installers. somehow, all 3 of those platform support me swapping my external between machines with ease, and only GaWFL throws a tantrum. does that give me a reason to sign a petition suggesting that using Steam (since they must use a DRM, obviously) is more preferable to me than GaWFL, which has a 75% problem record in my experience?
13/04/2012 at 02:10 Savagetech says:
This is a stupid move that will inevitably lose them sales. Apologists can defend FROM Software/Namco/GFWL all they want, but that’s the plain truth of the matter. Integrating GFWL might be *easier* for the developers but it’s directly at odds with pleasing a significant number of consumers. I’m sure some hardcore fans would be willing to put up with an even worse service just to play the game, but for anyone who’s on the fence it’s going to be harder to justify a $50-60 purchase when the product is saddled with such shoddy netcode bloatware right out of the gate.
I’ve had nothing but trouble when purchasing GFWL games. I’ve given them plenty of chances and it has gotten better since Shadowrun but it’s still consistently a chore to deal with. After my trouble with Bulletstorm I’m simply out of patience for companies who can’t be arsed to make sure I’m able to play the multiplayer of a game I paid for. Spend 6 extra months in dev for all I care, just get me a product that I can feel confident spending my money on.
Honestly I’d rather the game just not come out than have the GFWL parasite hanging off of its neck. PC sales will be reduced if GFWL is forced onto consumers, and Namco is more likely to say PC isn’t a reliable market (“2 MENY PIRATS LOL, GG NO RE”) as a result. The fact that they listened to the petition is great, but if they lose sales to GFWL and don’t recognize the correlation then they’ll be less likely to listen in the future.
13/04/2012 at 13:51 Chizu says:
Been offline for just over a week, nice to come back and find Dark Souls PC is now confirmed.
Shame about GFWL. To be honest, I personally have never had any actual technical problems using GFWL to work, but I still don’t like it at all.
Its a clunky, unpleasant service to use.
But, its not enough to stop me buying this game, my want is too great.
13/04/2012 at 14:37 chackosan says:
Hmm. Well, I guess it wouldn’t kill me to wait a few months after release, see if there aren’t widespread reports about GFWL screwing up the game and then decide on a purchase. Might be cheaper by then, if I’m lucky.
14/04/2012 at 12:11 robotslave says:
I will not be playing this, because I have had lots and lots of problems trying to play every GFWL game I’ve pirated.
Everyone I know who pirates GFWL games has had problems; if there’s anyone here who has been able to play pirated GFWL games without a hitch, please leave a comment letting us know how you’re doing it.
15/04/2012 at 02:52 Baresark says:
That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Post if you pirated it and it worked? There is nothing in GFWL that prevents piracy. You don’t even need a crack to play pirated games with it… If you can’t figure it out, that is too bad for you. Not buying a game because you can’t pirate it with GFWL (because you are partially retarded) is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
15/04/2012 at 10:40 chackosan says:
Fairly sure it’s an insinuation that complaints about GFWL are coming from people who pirated the games. If only that were true.
16/04/2012 at 04:31 Baresark says:
Haha, I may be dense. But, people who pirate GFWL games don’t have any problems what so ever playing them, so that is not accurate either. I had a problem with Ridge Racer Unbounded and was told it’s because I pirated the game and I shouldn’t be on the forums looking for help with my problem. People who make those assumptions are idiots.
15/04/2012 at 03:02 Baresark says:
I think Total Biscuit said it best. They are putting a game out that we asked for. It sucks that it has GFWL, but the main concern should be supporting them and then letting them know that we don’t like GFWL. Lots of companies have taken the consumer good will, listened to us, and changed it in the sequels. To name a few, Fallout 3 used GFWL and then New Vegas used Steamworks. Dawn of War 2 used GFWL and DOW2: Retribution used Steamworks. Companies in the past have learned their lesson, but I’m afraid PC gamers won’t learn anything. We should at least know if the experience is hurt or ruined by GFWL before we rage about it. It’s just common sense.
Giving ultimatums is only going to drive them away from the platform. It only takes a few bad apples to sour the whole barrel of cider.
As an aside, people are naturally atruistic, but none of that ever shows up on forums, which makes me laugh a bit. Someone who isn’t familiar with humanity would get the wrong idea from the internet.
16/04/2012 at 16:15 netizensmith says:
We have bigger problems than GFWL. The PC port is being handled by Hijinx. I shudder to think what it will run like. Their Silent Hill HD Collection was an utter balls up.
21/04/2012 at 18:14 rockman29 says:
If Atlus was still publishing alone, we would’ve got this sans retard… and not meaning being late…