Brilliant: Players Waging Actual War On EVE’s Economy

By Nathan Grayson on April 28th, 2012 at 8:48 am.

Wow. Just wow.
I’m not an EVE player. I know it sucks in some people like a massively multiplayer black hole, but the actual act of playing it has never exerted much of a gravitational pull on my attention. I’m probably dumb. Regardless, though, I can’t help but admire the sheer insanity this place constantly generates. Years-in-the-making corporate conspiracies, thousands-strong space battles, the very existence of Dust 514 – it is, at times, nearly unbelievable. Case in point: the ever-mischievous Goonswarm is up to its old tricks again. And by “tricks,” I mean bringing an entire economy to its knees. The best part? CCP’s totally loving it.

So, the short version: temporarily banned former Council of Stellar Management boss Alexander “The Mittani” Gianturco is leading a 15,000-strong assault on EVE’s biggest trade hub, Jita. Thousands of players will suicide-attack industrial ships in the “safe” core systems, ruining trading and blockading the main trade hub area. It’s the final, ear-piercing key stroke in a perfectly orchestrated plan involving all sorts of alloy price manipulation before and after the launch of EVE’s recent Inferno expansion. Basically, though, players have stockpiled alloy and will now space-skyrocket space-sale prices in space by, you know, literally murdering trade. And, amazingly (in a good way), CCP’s not planning to lift a finger in opposition. Senior producer Jon Lander explained to Eurogamer:

“I tell you what, it’s going to be fucking brilliant. They’re going to do exactly what you’re able to do in the game, and people will have to roll with it. It’ll be great. We want people to be able to do this. If Goonswarm want to do it, we want them to do it and we want them to have a great time doing it… Last night I got an email – Jita was at 2100. Time dilation kicked in at 15 percent. And there were people just watching the shit that was going down. It was brilliant. It was absolutely great.”

Meanwhile, lead game designer Kristoffer Touborg’s simply fascinated by the potential outcomes of this absurdly large-scale invasion. At the moment, he sees it as a chance to wipe the slate clean and force players to pull themselves up by their bootstraps again.

“The people they’re going to hurt now are people who have quite a lot of security. There’s not a lot of turnaround on ships and goods in Empire. I think it might be healthy if we lose a lot of this industrial power, if they have to go back and save up for their ships again and be a part of the cycle of life everyone else is a part of. I don’t like complete security, and I do like when a large group of players who live in complete security have that pulled away temporarily. It’s going to be healthy.”

So, in a word: brilliant. If you’d like to watch the madness unfold, there are roughly a billion livestreams of the galaxy-eclipsing assault. Goodness, though. This is really quite the thing. I may cancel my weekend plans to watch a videogame. What a silly, amazing world we live in.

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202 Comments »

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  1. Premium User Badge

    skalpadda says:

    So, I read about this on EG earlier, but can someone explain in intelligible English what exactly it is they’re doing?

    • Rob Maguire says:

      Here’s my (limited) understanding of the situation:

      A powerful player gets banned for organized mass harassment of a suicidal player. CCP gives him a token slap-on-the-wrist punishment (a 30 day ban, when he’s a corp leader – ie, most of what he does takes place outside of the game). He apologizes to the community, then gets upset that he’s still banned because he ‘owned his mistake’. He plans a massive raid to, uh, prove that he’s not a bad person? CCP will allow him to get away with it because he backed them into a corner by saying the ‘old CCP’ would let it happen.

      Here’s some earlier RPS coverage of this: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/03/29/the-mittanis-crime-punishment-in-eve-online/

      • St4ud3 says:

        Only that that is not the reason whatsoever…

      • Batolemaeus says:

        Basically what Rob Maguire said. Someone got majorly butthurt and is now vowing to minorly inconvene a few people.

      • Abi79 says:

        30 day ban for harassing someone who then killed himself? Am I the only one thinking that CCP are being way too lenient and also that someone should have pressed charges against him in real life?

        As for the raid, I was under the impression that they’ve been planning this for months, at least from what the Eurogamer article said. Weren’t they? Or is this actually his reaction to getting banned by CCP?

        • Jim Rossignol says:

          No one killed himself.

          And this attack is very much the sort of thing that Goonswarm do. They’re pushing the mechanics of the game.

        • St4ud3 says:

          It’s been planned months before that whole debacle. Also he didn’t kill himself. Mittani got drunk and told people on an internet stream to kill the ship of a guy who mailed him months earlier about how he got seriously depressed about them killing his pretend space ships.

          • Batolemaeus says:

            Mittani told the guy to “kill himself”. And other people to mail and harass him. At a public event. Streamed live to thousands of people.

            This is worth an instant permaban almost everywhere.

          • Stevostin says:

            God I hope you’re wrong. What a world if you’re right. Ban, yes, but perma ? Sanction has to be in relation with the crime. He was joking, it was oral, not written, and the only thing that put weights to the accusation is that having the influence he has and considering the audience it’s a reasonable assumption that someone may be stupid enough to do what he said. But he aslo nearly instantly apologised by himself. I think it’s pretty awful if each time you’re making wild humor (ie “that can be a bit in bad spirit”) you’re actually working along the cliff. He didn’t orchestrate bullying of a depressed person by a long shot. Chill, people.

          • psyk says:

            Ok if you say so, Stevostin I hope you slit your wrists and remember its up the street not across, I’m sorry you were friztled from birth to young adult hood but you were obviously a waste of space, a mistake that your parents would of rather killed and forgotten but the guilt would of rested to heavy on them so they locked you in the basement instead.

            Everyone go to http://www.worldofmakles.com/dotclear/ and show your disgust at the mistake that is Stevostin still breathing.

          • Mctittles says:

            @psyk

            According to your sarcasm, what do you think your real life punishment should be for the joke you just made in these comments?

          • psyk says:

            A banning that is impossible to enforce :(

          • Ghil says:

            @Stevostin: Inciting suicide is still a very grey area in the legal department. The Melchert-Dinkel case (Minnesota, 2011) convicted Melchert-Dinkel on two accounts of assisted suicides. Granted it is a lot more serious than The Mittani, but it is still something that should not be overlooked. The Mittani wasn’t just in the wrong. He made an horrible mess that very well could’ve lead to a worse outcome; one that could’ve cost the life of someone.

          • Hmm-Hmm. says:

            You know, it seems about right to permaban someone for that. Harrassment of that sort can be really hurtful to people. I mean, seriously, that Mitanni guy is messed up.

            Of course, it’d also be rather satisfying if it happened to the Mitanni.

        • coldvvvave says:

          Th guy didn’t kill himself, I think. He was just depressed.

        • j6m says:

          @seronx

          Odysseus, perhaps?

      • dsi1 says:

        Rob: there was no mass harassment of the depressed player until The Mittani’s personal (in-game) enemies brought it up almost 3 days (maybe two) after the fact.

        They wanted to take down Mittani/the Goons out-of-game because they can’t do it in-game, they’ve failed gloriously of course.

      • Xiko says:

        They were going to do it if Mitanni had 10k votes on the CSM election. He did and they would do it anyway. They only renamed the event because he was then banned and they he was unbanned they did this.

    • RobinOttens says:

      From what I gathered: They’re destroying a big trade hub (space station?) after having stockpiled a bunch of goods (alloy) they’re going to sell back for profit afterwards? I’m assuming the point is they get to decide prices and availability of alloy and the predictability and security of the market in that region evaporates. Also, in a way, it’s too late to counter-attack, since Goonswarm has basically taken that alloy as a hostage. Players are gonna lose a whole lot of resources and easy trade either way.

      What I’m wondering is, are other players just gonna let this happen?

      • Batolemaeus says:

        You’re aware that there are incredibly large stockpiles of resources in Eve and that Jita is only a tradehub ob several, right?

        • RobinOttens says:

          Yeah, I know that. I played Eve for a week or so, and the one thing I learned is that that world is really really huge.

          Anyway, apparently what I gathered from the article isn’t at all what they are actually doing. So ignore me completely if you will.

    • Jim Rossignol says:

      The main thing is that they are suicide-attacking people in Jita, which is the main trade hub and “safe” space, I believe. They will die in the attempts, but should be able to kill lots of industrial ships.

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        skalpadda says:

        Thanks for an answer that makes sense. So it’s essentially just a big blockade to prevent people from reaching or leaving the trading hub? Also, is suiciding (rather than just attacking) a way to avoid security measures?

        I don’t know much about EVE, but these things are interesting.

        • St4ud3 says:

          It’s suiciding, because the systems that are in the center of the Eve galaxy have a high security status and if you attack people in there you will automatically get shot by a sort of space police.

          You can think of it like going into the other factions main city in WoW and getting attacked by the town guards. You will die, but hopefully you will take as many ships as possible with you.

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            skalpadda says:

            Ah, I thought they might have been ramming ships rather than attacking to avoid something like that. See, I know nothing about EVE. Thanks. :)

          • Bork Titflopsen says:

            You can bump in to another ship but all that results in is you drifting apart from eachother a bit.

            However, if your ship is big enough and your ship is going to explode you can take other people down with the blast.

          • immerc says:

            Keep in mind that it’s a suicide attack, but it’s not permanent death, as it’s an MMO. The ship they’re flying is permanently destroyed, but they respawn instantly nearby, and as long as there are more suicide ships available, they can go back in and die again. Eventually the cost of all those ships starts to tell, on the other hand, they’re rich and have been planning this for months, and can probably even turn a profit by taking advantage of the disruption this causes in the game’s economy (i.e. overcharging for things in other systems that aren’t blockaded).

          • AzatiPrime says:

            @Bork Titflopsen Right about the first part but completely wrong about the second part. A ship blowing up in Eve does nothing to surrounding ships.

      • ghelna says:

        It sounds like they’re stockpiling alloy to support being able to keep up their rate of suicidal attrition.

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      El_MUERkO says:

      Jita is the biggest trade hub in the game, one station in particular Jita 4-4 assembly plant, if you want to buy or sell something in the game Jita is the place to do it. NPC police defend the inhabitants of Jita but once you’re in space anyone can kill you if they act fast enough and kill you before the NPCs kill them . Goonswarm have the numbers to lock down the station and the gates into the system and kill anything that looks like a trade ship thus trapping trillions in assets in the station and strangling the economy of eve. So they are.

      [EDIT] When I started typing there was one reply, stoopid mobile phone keyboards :-(

      • Premium User Badge

        skalpadda says:

        But your reply was the most enlightening. Thank you. :)

      • Noburu says:

        Thanks for the layman explanation for those of us that dont play Eve.

        Ive somewhat followed the game’s progress over the years. This sounds seriously epic/awesome/ragequitish all at the same time. Makes me wish I still had the time for MMO’s, but alas a wife, baby and full-time job make for very little “free” time.

    • cjb110 says:

      Although this is timed to conside with the end of banning, I thought it was more to do with the highsec miners v the nullsec PvP’ers. Afaik some of the players are pissed that the whole premise of EVE being anything goes is being eroded in highsec. i.e. its becoming PvE cept the E are just rocks.

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        El_MUERkO says:

        That’s kind of true, the risk / reward balance of the game is a very difficult balancing act and for many the rewards of leaving highsec are not worth the risk. CCP are endeavouring to change the dynamic.

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        Maltose says:

        Hey, space rocs are dangerous too!

    • Hoarr says:

      Don’t listen to people talking about the main goal of this being griefing or about ‘suicide ganking’. What goonswarm is trying to do is terrorism. Not in the fully emotionally charged or trolling sense of the word, but in the pure definition. Their main goal is the creation and use of fear as a force multiplier.

      The economy in eve works because, unlike pretty much every other MMO I’ve ever heard of, scarcity actually exists in New Eden (EvE). Players are forced to make DECISIONS and actions have permanence. Dieing doesn’t mean that you just have to run back to your corpse to get all of your stuff back, if you die, whatever you have with you is GONE. You have to make money again to buy the exact same thing that you lost. This creates RATIONAL ECONOMIC AGENTS. This means that people actually respond to their basic competing emotions of fear and greed. This, in turn, helps to create a real, no bullshit, functioning economy.

      Most of the time in the safe areas of eve, if you aren’t a complete idiot, you can move goods around pretty much without any fear of people messing with you. As an aside, being a complete idiot means that you are moving goods worth at least double (sometimes more, the loot gods have a habit of being cruel) the cost in ships it would take to kill whatever ship you were flying.

      What goonswarm is doing is they waited for a time period when the markets in eve were vulnerable (there are several changes for the most basic building blocks in eve(minerals) that have just happened), to use these attacks as a force multiplier in an effort to reach their stated mission “not to ruin THE game, but to ruin YOUR game”. Goonswarm has also (within the last week) organized an oligarchy of the major coalitions in the game to create an in game version of OPEC and have announced they will be severely tightening the supply of essential building blocks for the better ships and equipment. The timing of this cannot be a coincidence and just adds fuel to the fire of the ‘Burn Jita’ campaign.

      So in some ways, the events of this weekend could be construed as goons being goons; but in others it could be seen as some spectacularly high level economic warfare and price fixing. One thing is for sure, it’s an amazing time to be a resident of New Eden.

      That being said, RPS Holdings is recruiting – check us out here: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?246-Eve-Online-RPS-Holdings-is-looking-for-new-pilots/page23

      • Hikkikomori says:

        Thank you so much for the detailed analysis.
        Griefing and establishing trade dominance are certainly not mutually exclusive. The goons are having fun while getting rich. Interesting times for Eve.

      • S Jay says:

        Damn, I miss EVE. :((((

      • tetracycloide says:

        Most MMOs have scarcity and rational economic agents, certainly all the major ones. Perhaps you meant that the inflation rate is stable and reasonable in Eve?

        • Apolloin says:

          The difference in Eve is that most everything you want to buy has been made by a player from minerals mined by a player and has been hauled from the manufacturing site to the economic site by another player.

          I think the motivation behind Burning Jita has little to do with The Mittani (aka Mittens) getting banned and everything to do with an ugly split that has been forming in the Eve Community for literally years between the low risk/low reward Highsec players and the high risk / high reward Nullsec players. You might liken the Highsec players to PvE’ers and the Nullsec players to PvP’ers although, as with everything Eve, the reality is a little more complex.

          You’d think that the happiest solution would be to let the Nullsec players do their stuff in Nullsec whilst the Highsec players do their stuff in Highsec – but for some reason this has never really seemed to be an option. Militant Nullsec players dream of being turned loose in Highsec space to attack those that don’t share their vision of Eve and, increasingly, they’ve been trying to find ways to make this dream a reality.

          Goonswarm’s Burning Jita crusade is currently the posterchild for this sentiment. They’ve expressed their desire to literally wreck the game for highsec players and either force them to play the game nullsec style or else unsubscribe and go elsewhere. The Mittani, once the head of the player group elected to represent the player community to the Developers, is the personal standard bearer.

          You might think this is griefing of the highest order. You might think that this behaviour would result in perma-banning from just about any other MMO out there, especially in these times of dwindling userbases.

          However, all of this seems to be something that CCP are comfortable with and encourage. The majority of the content released in the last couple of years is either based in Nullsec or operates under Nullsec style rules (Wormholes). CCP seens to have a vision of a Galaxy in flames and whilst embracing the tendencies of individual players who are focused more on building digital sandcastles as necessary, firmly embrace a game where those sandcastles WILL get kicked over.

          It’s either genius or total madness – and CCP’s corporate decisionmaking lately makes either option equally likely.

          • thebluemonkey81 says:

            This freedom to do what you like and deal with the consiquences is why I play eve.

            Luckily it’s the first MMO I started palying and has made me unable to play other ones (I tried wow for a while but there’s just no PvP. By that I mean, if I’m awesome I get points and advance, if I suck I still get points and advance only slower, which is just out right wrong. I should lose something for losing)

      • Phantoon says:

        Number one: That’s terror.
        Number two: That’s terror.

      • ThatGuy says:

        Everything I read about this game just gets me more and more enticed. God damn the addictive virtual mistress.

      • Josh W says:

        It’s not terrorism, but it is villainy: Isn’t this exactly what the enemies in baldur’s gate were up to?

        • Uninteresting Curse File Implement says:

          I love it. I love that there are villains in this game that are not appointed by the developer like Freeport or the Horde, but are allowed to act out of their own genuine rottenness.

          What a fascinating game that I will never play. God bless CCP.

    • wisnoskij says:

      The industrial and trade center of the game, which holds 1500 players at any given time normally, is protected by an unbeatable fleet of NPS police that attack anyone who engages in violence.
      These aggressors are using suicide ships to destroy the players in this area.
      Most prevalent seems to be ships with a single artillery ammo what takes long to to reload but does massive damage.

      They have already stockpiled lots of minerals and are hoping to have some fun and make a profit when this war drives up the price.

    • Alexander Norris says:

      That this kind of thing is possible is what makes EVE so awesome. It’s a shame about Goonswarm being racist, misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic twats, though.

      • Alex Bakke says:

        When you have a corp that large, you’ll get racist misogynistic homophobic transphobic twats. Quite a few decent guys in Goonswarm though.

        • S Jay says:

          I can vouch for that, when I was in my first days, a random guy just gave me the money to buy a better ship, because I was not being able to beat an epic arc boss.

        • Phantoon says:

          That’s the image they’ve fostered, though. It’s the internet version of beefing up at the gym just so people don’t pick fights with you- just double up on the bigotry and people will avoid you unless they have a thick skin.

          A lot of the people that spout such bullshit don’t believe it- they just do it because it drives away those that wouldn’t fit in. I’m not saying there aren’t people that actually do believe in it, but believe it or not, there ARE lines that can’t be crossed, even in a community such as the goons.

          Entrance to a community such as that does usually mean you have to be a dick though.

          • FunkyBadger3 says:

            From how you describe it it pretty much does.

          • Nate says:

            “A lot of the people that spout such bullshit don’t believe it- they just do it because it drives away those that wouldn’t fit in.”

            Yeah, well, the message it sends is that if you’re not white, male, and straight, you wouldn’t fit in.

      • Mctittles says:

        “racist, misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic ”

        Looks like you got all the ‘Hot Topics’ in there. You should write articles :).

      • Alikchi says:

        Actually, speaking as a gay pilot in Goonswarm, I’ve never encountered any unironic homophobia. We have several notable black members, and our female pilots are the best in the game. Rydis, our Sky Marshal, just masterminded the taking of two nullsec regions. Our propaganda emphasizes this, actually:

        http://i.imgur.com/t0BXU.jpg

        Good job with the baseless attack though!

        • TODD says:

          I was going to say, Goonswarm is one of the most tolerant/accepting alliances in the game. They’re not Reddit, and they’re not 4chan, even though they are allied with the Reddit alliance and other unsavory types.

        • FartFarticus says:

          I don’t know if you’ve been informed of this yet, but trying to cover homophobia, sexism or racism with “irony” doesn’t really change the fact that those comments are homophobic, sexist or racist. I thought SA was beyond the “but its just jokes hyuk” phase at this point!

          Also I remember some really awful defense of “Jewing” as a pejorative by a goonfleet member being posted in the minority gaming thread. Is that guy still around?

    • Sweatypitts says:

      The way I heard it, they originally planned to do it because CCP kept nerfing high-sec ganking, and Mittens got banned so they postponed it until he was unbanned.

      After that, they declared war on several freighter corporations and other corporation stationed out of Jita. It gave them a TON of targets to shoot, and they would also attack High-Value targets with suicide gank squads if needed.

  2. PitfireX says:

    I didnt understand the majority of this article lol, BUT it sounds cool that organized gamers can abuse a system that a dev set in place and FINALLY have a dev understand that stuff like that happends and be okay with it…. maybe one day Origin will be gamer ran!….but we’ll just destroy it….

  3. zeekthegeek says:

    Chairman for life!! All hail Chairman LMAO

  4. Yosharian says:

    Wow, that explained… nothing. What is Jita Hub and why should I be bothered that Goonswarm is owning it?

  5. wuwul says:

    Sounds cool!

    But, ahem, what did the article say?

  6. benjamin says:

    What they are doing is fairly simple:

    1) They stockpile alloy
    2) They make sure alloy comes into short supply by attacking a major trade hub
    3) They sell their stockpiled alloy at vastly inflated prices due to the shortage. The less supply there is the more the price will increase.

    The real life equivalent would be stockpiling oil then blowing up all of America’s oil wells and then selling your oil at a really really high price.

    • St4ud3 says:

      This has nothing to do with profit.
      The point of this whole thing was to celebrate 10k votes in the election and make the people who think they are safe in the biggest tradehub in Eve whine, which is working perfectly by the way.

      There were many deaththreats already and there is a whole lot of threads complaining about it in the official forums.
      The point is having fun at the expense of others and feed on their tears.

      • benjamin says:

        As an economist I always find that hard to believe but I’ll take your word for it. I was just summerizing the above article.

        • nil says:

          I suspect any profits taken will mostly be just a way of retaining the capability to do it (and/or lulzy things of a similar nature) again. Humans are pretty far from rational actors, and that goes double for pseudonymous trolls on the Internet.

          • Mobius says:

            I think any economists looking to analyse this event, and MMO economies in general, should learn from this discussion and starting taking in “lolz” as an extra endogenous(?) variable in their models.

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            drewski says:

            (time spent on activity X income forgone by spending that time) + unit cost of EvE subscription for time spent = value of lulz

        • St4ud3 says:

          The occupation of Jita is only for 2 days and is not enough to interrupt the economy in a large scale. Our market manipulation schemes are mostly more elaborate.
          Forming an alliance with all producers of a particular resource for the sole purpose of driving prices up (named Organizaton of Technetium Exporting Corporations fittingly) or putting high bounties on producers of a much needed fuel source for a month, while sitting on huge stockpiles is more up our alley. :)

  7. ghelna says:

    I’m surprised it hasn’t happened earlier on such a scale.

    • Premium User Badge

      El_MUERkO says:

      It kind of did, when you declare war on another corp you can kill them and the NPCs won’t get involved, a few years ago a corp wardec’d everyone and hilarity ensued :-D

  8. iainl says:

    So the Goons have finally got bored of the way that all the people who aren’t as unpleasant as them have gone to play somewhere else rather than put up with their childish rubbish, and decided to throw vast amounts of suicidal resource at trying to ruin their day even in the bits of the game that are designed to stop them? And that’s a good thing?

    Once again, I’m reminded why I don’t play this thing.

    • PopeJamal says:

      Yes. “Brilliant” is the word that someone used to describe it. Apparently, the definition of the word has been changed recently. I was not aware of this.

  9. Spinks says:

    I don’t really get why anyone ever thought CCP would interfere with this. Anyhow, no time for EVE since I found out that players regularly use jew as slang for rapacious capitalists in game (not like that has a bad history or anything), and Goons are associated with loads of sexist and racist harassment. But somehow, journalists never focus on that.

    They’re a bucket of twats and glad they have their own sandbox to play in and stay in.

    • St4ud3 says:

      We have lots of women and people from all over the world in our alliance, but thank you for your valuable input.

      • Alphabet says:

        Some of your best friends are members of groups your groups uses discriminatory language against? How unprecedented!

      • Skabooga says:

        My word! That thusly absolves them of all guilt! Jolly good!

      • elnalter says:

        u got schooled hella hard

    • MSJ says:

      If they are so mysoginist and racist, how can they be goons? Something Awful routinely bans those types, and more often than not outright permabans them.

      • Sheng-ji says:

        SA routinely permabans people because it costs them £10 to get back on each time. I forgot which of the management team made this comment, but one did – he basically was laughing at the way in which people will pay time and time again and pointed out that profiting from the kind of idiots who use SA is a public service.

        I should point out that I am a proud member of SA, the disabled gaming community there is the finest on the internet.

    • sysdefect says:

      What most people fail to realize is that goons, their guilds/clans, and their forum have a very us versus them mentality. So it’s not that they’re all hetero male white supremacists, it’s that they’re goons, and everyone else is part of the unwashed masses. This is not unlike many parts of the internet and their communities. Their values, morality, and rules do not align with the typical pseudo honor and principles that are endemic to other players and is focused exclusively on self/group preservation and exploitation of others for laughs, only on the sake that the people have found the internet to be serious business and have for many years. Goons just happen to be brutally effective in this policy and effecting it in online games.

      80% of the people here who are complaining or flaming goons think the internet is serious business and that is the problem.

      • Phantoon says:

        I wouldn’t say it’s a hatred of everyone else, it’s just that they have standards.

        • PopeJamal says:

          Exactly! They’re just standards in regards to sexuality, gender, and ethnicity.

          They are so MISUNDERSTOOD and it’s not fair.

          • Alikchi says:

            Hey buddy. Gay Goonswarm pilot here. We treat women and minorities with respect – a lot better than most alliances in this dumb game – but it’s good to know that people will jump to conclusions about Goons as easily as they always have.

            It’s despicable but predictable – folks resort to baseless accusations of bigotry because we’re playing your video game in a way you don’t like.

            Gamers will never change, I guess.

          • Skabooga says:

            I agree. Goons have such a bad reputation as it is that there is really no need to tarnish it further.

          • Gnashy says:

            Calm down Mr. Defensive Gay Goon Pilot. You voluntarily chose to label yourself a “goon,” which by definition, is one who acts with a group of fellow simple-minded followers to “terrorize” others.

            All the negative criticism the SA Goons have accumulated over the years is duly earned. If you don’t want to get covered with the same blanket of condemnation, chose your bedfellows more carefully.

          • Apolloin says:

            Well, less that you’re playing in a way that others don’t like and more that you’re attempting to stop anyone who doesn’t play in a way you like from playing.

            Let’s be fair here. You’re essentially claiming that people who want you to stop griefing are griefing you…

    • sysdefect says:

      What most people fail to realize is that goons, their guilds/clans, and their forum have a very us versus them mentality. So it’s not that they’re all hetero male white supremacists, it’s that they’re goons, and everyone else is part of the unwashed masses. This is not unlike many parts of the internet and their communities. Their values, morality, and rules do not align with the typical pseudo honor and principles that are endemic to other players and is focused exclusively on self/group preservation and exploitation of others for laughs, only on the sake that the people have found the internet to be serious business and have for many years. Goons just happen to be brutally effective in this policy and effecting it in online games.

      80% of the people here who are complaining or flaming goons still think the internet is serious business. 80% of the people there in Jita who are complaining or flaming goons still think space ships are serious business and unfortunately for them, the game enables and encourages risks that literally annihilates their efforts, so this ends up being a precious bit of memento mori.

    • psyk says:

      O really? the mods got pissed when i was mining and singing “throw a jew down the well so our system can be free” no sense of humour in that place in less it involves griefing.

      • wodin says:

        That was damn funny on Borat. The Americans just didn’t get him at all. I like the way they all joined in singing it in that bar.

        “I’m afraid your wife is dead”

        “Hurrah, high five”!

  10. amisysally says:

    I am very lucky to be able to come to your weblog and I will bookmark this web page in order that I could come back another time [some spammy link]

  11. Simes says:

    Yay griefing?

    • Premium User Badge

      jaheira says:

      I never understood why people complain about griefing. It’s what you sign up for when you decide to play the game. I think people are importing real-world morality into virtual spaces, and getting confused and angry when other people don’t.
      So yes, yay griefing.

      • Alphabet says:

        So you’re saying that real-world morality should be off by default in virtual spaces? Because I find that very odd.

        • hjarg says:

          Thou shall not kill in online mutliplayer games?

        • Premium User Badge

          jaheira says:

          In the real world we have developed a set of rules for behaviour – morality.
          In computer games we have a different set of rules – literally the rules of the game we are playing.
          Complaining about somebody exploderising your fave spaceship in Eve is the equivalent of complaining about somebody taking your favourite pawn in chess, it’s just a misunderstanding of the situation.

          • NathanH says:

            No, not buying this. First of all, the rules of the game are more akin to the laws of physics in real life: you can’t break them, they’re just there. Just because the game has rules doesn’t imply that questions of morality can be instantly thrown out of the window.

            I don’t like the chess analogy either. When I sit down to play someone at chess, there is the implicit understanding that we’re both going to make an effort to win the game. The goal is the same; it’s a symmetrical situation. We’re not sitting down for a game of peaceful co-existence, and if that was what we were after we’d do something other than play chess. Griefing, on the other hand, is far from symmetrical. Often the goal of the griefer is just to piss off their victim; the act might have neutral or negative impace on their in-game progression. A more fitting chess analogy would be someone wandering into a random chess tournament they knew or cared nothing about, picking a random board, and swiping a pawn from a random player.

          • Premium User Badge

            jaheira says:

            “We’re not sitting down for a game of peaceful co-existence” The Goon squad clearly don’t see Eve as a game of peaceful co-existence. They’ve decided that they’re going to have fun ruining somebody’s day. Unacceptable in the real world, but I would argue totally fine in Eve where everybody knows what they were signing up for when they started to play.

            Your chess analogy doesn’t work either by the way. If you wandered into a chess tournarment and swiped a random pawn you’d be breaking the rules (both of chess and the expanded rules of behaviour for organised chess)
            The Goons aren’t breaking any rules.

          • NathanH says:

            Your original comment didn’t deal with goonswarm, this particular incident or even EVE in general really, hence I did not either and will not.

            Are you saying that if it was in the rules that someone could walk into a random chess tournament and take a random pawn, then you’d think that was OK, because it was in the rules, even though it didn’t help the person who did it in any way and is just plain nasty? Of course you don’t think that.

          • PopeJamal says:

            Here’s a question for you then:

            When I’m sitting in a dark room in California, staring at a screen all day and using a joystick to fly a drone in Asia while I kill “bad guys” on the screen with my “video missiles” and “video guns”, should I be using “Real” morality or “Videogame” morality?

            Because I didn’t liberate that man’s intestines and his head in a fiery explosion, I’m just playing a “game”.

          • Premium User Badge

            jaheira says:

            Nathan,
            Yes it would be fine. Everyone at that bizarre tornament you’ve described would presumably know of the rules and would for some reason have decided to play chess on that basis. Of course I wouldn’t play in it myself and I’ve no idea why anyone would organize a tourney on that basis but errr… well it’s your analogy!

            PopeJamal,
            If that was directed at me I can’t answer your question because I have no idea what you’re talking about.

          • NathanH says:

            OK, so what we’ve actually established is that you think that any action that is not illegal is acceptable. I disapprove.

          • Premium User Badge

            jaheira says:

            I’m not clever enough to work out how you came to that conclusion from my attempt to wrestle with your weird chess tournament scenario.
            Congratulations on your disapproval by the way. Let us know how that works out for you.

          • NathanH says:

            I’ll explain it step-by-step then

            Step 1: Taking the pawn is just nasty
            Step 2: It is within the rules
            Step 3: You said it would be fine to do
            Step 4: You think that nasty things are fine to do as long as they are within the rules

          • ChrisGWaine says:

            If it’s a game where “nasty” things have been decided to be part of the rules, then it is indeed absolutely fine to play according to those rules. You may in fact make the game less fun for the people who like that game and chose to play it, if you were to take part and start complaining with your attitude about people who follow those rules.

            A version of chess where you can steal pieces doesn’t sound as tough as, say, boxing, but that’s a legitimate sport which people enjoy.

          • Premium User Badge

            jaheira says:

            I see. The problems are Steps 1 and 4.
            It wouldn’t be “nasty” for the interloper to take the random pawn. Everyone at your tournament would know of the possibility and factored it in (assuming they are good NathanH-chess players) Under these bizarro circumstances “nastiness” wouldn’t apply to this any more than it would to an opponent playing an unexpected and devastating Rook sac.
            Given that Step 1 is problematic, you’re extrapolation in Step 4 fails.

            Edit: ninja’d by the above

          • NathanH says:

            So, as I said above: you think that everything legal is acceptable behaviour. Everything that is not against the rules is acceptable behaviour. Because if it was unacceptable behaviour it would be against the rules, right? And you will, I assume, never criticize anyone for doing something that’s not against the rules, because it’s totally OK for them to do it? Is that right?

            No, of course it isn’t right. Just stop and think about what you’re saying.

          • psyk says:

            So jaheira, So your playing a one life team game with ff on and someone is teamkilling your team in the spawn over and over again and that is GREAT and should be encouraged? would that person do the same thing if they were at a LAN? what is the difference exactly apart from by going one route your safe at home with no retaliation by most possible and the other you have the risk of getting punched in the face?

          • Premium User Badge

            jaheira says:

            Nathan,
            I think the problem here might be the definition of “acceptable behaviour”. Where is this standard of acceptability coming from? Don’t you think that anybody playing these games has already designated anything within the rules of the game as “acceptable” by signing up to play it?

            Psyk,
            I am neither encouraging or disencouraging griefing. I’m simply confused as to why some people complain about it. It’s as if they’ve decided to go for a little swim in waters that they know perfectly well are infested with sharks and then whinge to their mummies when the sharks bite their legs off.

          • NathanH says:

            No, of course I don’t think that. For instance, if someone takes an action that is within the rules, makes someone else unhappy, and does not provide anything to themselves other than a pleasing rush of spite, I’m going to criticize them for it, always. I don’t see why I should ever consider allowing such actions to pass without criticism. Just because the rules of a game allow antisocial behaviour, I see no reason to tolerate or condone it.

            Anyway, it’s totally unreasonable to expect a set of rules to outlaw all possible nastiness or be policed sufficiently to catch all possible nastiness, thus giving us yet another reason to have some sort of moral code.

          • Premium User Badge

            jaheira says:

            Yes, I sort of see what you mean. The problem is that the moral code you refer to is not universal. What we designate as right or wrong changes with personal outlook, upbringing, geography, circumstance, religion, the era in which we happen to be alive in etc. As a society we codify morality in the law. I would suggest that an MMO codifies it in the rules of the game and the Code of Conduct. Just as what would be perfectly acceptable in, say, 13th Century Persia would not be acceptable in 21st Century England, so what happens in Eve online is not subject to the same moral criticism as real life.

          • Consumatopia says:

            Are you saying that if it was in the rules that someone could walk into a random chess tournament and take a random pawn, then you’d think that was OK, because it was in the rules

            Who wouldn’t think that? If it’s actually “in the rules”–if the rules to a particular tournament actually literally say “it is okay for people to walk into this chess tournament and take a pawn from any player”–then of course it would be okay. Maybe it’s some weird game in which players are supposed to concentrate on both the game and physically defending the board. In which case, by trying to take a pawn, I’m totally within the spirit of that game.

            This does not mean that anything not banned by the rules is okay (for one thing, in your example we aren’t talking about something not being banned, we’re talking about something explicitly permitted “in the rules”.)

            A better example might be if they forgot to add “threefold repetition” to chess rules, and it were a viable strategy to force your opponent into a repeating cycle of moves and continue that cycle until one of you passed out from lack of nutrition.

            But overall, it’s complicated. Just because there is a logical structure simulated on a computer that has intended analogies to some aspects of the real world doesn’t automatically mean that every moral rule that applies to real world entities applies to game world entities.

            It also doesn’t mean that only significant rules are mechanically enforced rules–if the developer of a game calls something an exploit and tells players not to do it even though they can’t enforce it in code, that makes it wrong. Depending on the nature of the game, it might also mean the game is poorly designed, but once you’ve chosen to play said poorly-designed game you are bound to both its formal and informal rules.

            Also, communications intended to harm not just the avatar of a player (“Consumatopia is a pirate!”), but the real world player behind the avatar (“Consumatopia is a fag!”), are immoral.

            Spite alone is not a disqualification. Sometimes taking things from others is the only point to the game–in fact, the only thing that can be taken is your capacity to in turn take from others. If you’re playing a multiplayer FPS, that’s basically all you’re doing–racking up points whenever you stop someone else from doing what they were trying to do. (“You’re just sniping everyone when they go to grab the rocket launcher, you never try to grab the rocket launcher yourself! You’re griefing!” No, I’m winning.)

            It isn’t necessarily the other person’s fault if you’re unhappy. Say I see someone’s shirt and notice colors I believe to be so jarringly mismatched that it offends me to see it worn. I yell at this person “Never wear that shirt! It is so ugly that it hurts to see it!” Is it really unethical for the other guy to wear that shirt more often just to piss me off?

        • Mordsung says:

          Well, yeah. Considering there are no real consequences in online games, morality ceases to have meaning.

          If I kill you in game, you’re not actually dead.
          If I blow up your pretend ship, nothing of real value is lost.
          And if you become upset due to my actions, that’s your problem and an issue with how your brain works, not with me.

          You should never become upset about anything without actual consequence.

          On the internet, the difference between bully and victim is one of choice, as every one of us is a titan online and every one of us has access to the same tools. It’s not like one of us bigger and picking on the small person.

          • NathanH says:

            What an odd point of view. Do you only consider things you can actually touch to be of value?

          • Phantoon says:

            False dichotomy. More cunning people will always do best on the internet. Being brainy here is the new brawn.

          • Alphabet says:

            But irritating people is not only a real consequence, it’s the motivation for griefer’s actions.

          • Mordsung says:

            I hold things as valuable when they have proven their value.

            Everything begins as worthless and works its way up from there.

          • psyk says:

            People standing up for grifers you do know it looks like your standing up for anon trolling of epilepsy websites and sites parents have set up for there dead kids.

          • Skabooga says:

            Strength in numbers is the brawn of online communities, just like it is in real life.

            Or as Boondocks more eloquently puts it:

          • Mordsung says:

            griefing people in an online game is a far, far cry from trolling the parents of dead children.

            The fact you even create an equivocation between the two shows a dangerous disconnect from reality.

            And, I would argue that killing someone in an area of the game where they are capable of being killed is never griefing.

            Sending them insulting tells and the like would be crossing the line, but ganking is not griefing and never has been. Neither is corpse camping, for that matter.

          • elnalter says:

            mord, i dont think hes correlating between trolling parents of dead kids and player killing. he’s saying that goons are exactly the same people that troll the parents of dead kids.

          • psyk says:

            Mordsung “Sending them insulting tells and the like would be crossing the line,”

            *clap* *clap* a type of griefing

            “On the internet, the difference between bully and victim is one of choice, as every one of us is a titan online and every one of us has access to the same tools. It’s not like one of us bigger and picking on the small person.”

            What? Just makes no sense, an eye for an eye is always the way to go YEP.

          • FunkyBadger3 says:

            Phantoon: you’d be amazed how few brainy people there are on the internet.

          • St4ud3 says:

            I really hope this was a reference to a great 2004 article we had on SA: http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/were-all-gonna.php

            And yes, I still think it’s ok to make fun of those people.

  12. Zarunil says:

    Say what you will about Eve, but it never stops fascinating me. What an amazing environment.

  13. McDan says:

    This is the kind of thing that makes EVE such a unique and great MMO. wish I had the time and the money to spend playing it, I’ve had a taste and I want more! And the stories of things that happen like this are just amazing.

  14. ukpanik says:

    yawn

    • FataMorganaPseudonym says:

      Thank you for your valuable contribution to the discussion.

      • ukpanik says:

        My point is, this is what the game should be like. Exciting. Instead of mostly chatting and tweaking ship setups.
        Something happens in EVE and everyone goes crazy, proclaiming it the greatest game of all time.
        They are just startled something has actually happened. They are in shock.

  15. Hematite says:

    So you’re saying that a trade federation has blockaded the peaceful planet of Jita and negotiations have broken down? I have a bad feeling about this…

  16. Syra says:

    Shit just got real.

  17. Belsameth says:

    Some of the losses so far (Moving multiple plexes through Jita. While this is happening. Why!?!?)

    http://www.evenews24.com/2012/04/27/the-freighter-list-of-shame/

  18. cassus says:

    This sounds like more SA yawnietimes.. I get the impression that they think this is hilarious, while most others go “so… what does it accomplish again?” Wouldn’t this just end up being, for the people trading alloys and staying out of nulsec, more like “so I guess I’ll have a break from EvE for a week, then go back in and produce alloys and make a TON of money for a week, effectively paying for my vacation tenfold.”

    This seems absolutely moronic.

    • Blackcompany says:

      What I think you are missing is this: GS has stockpiled materials in preparation for this even. Meaning that, for a time, they will be the sole provider to the market of the materials in question. Meaning, they stand to make a huge profit.

      Though I am curious: How much profit do they rake in once they repair/replace the suicide ships from this raid, in prep for their next show? Surely they cannot just leave their allies and members to deal with these losses on their own?

      If a corp asked me to sacrifice this much of my own stuff toward a raid then left me feeling the losses alone, I would…definitely remain a member of that same corp. Absolutely. I would still be their fanatical little gopher, making willing sacrifices for their gain.

      And all the while I would happily pass on their plans to highest bidder.

      So yeah…I am pretty sure GS has to help replace losses after this. I wonder what their margin of gain is once that is done. But the fact remains: Its not just about griefing, but about market manipulation.

      • Phantoon says:

        They probably already built up extra supplies leading up to it.

        People can complain about Goonswarm all they want, but they sure make EVE sound like an interesting and fun game to play.

        • Blackcompany says:

          Agreed. The corps have the power, in game, to stop these things. I would do it thusly:

          Send advance ships to market, to arrive before I send important trade vessels.
          Send armed escorts alongside important trade vessels
          Mix it up; guard empty trade vessels sometimes; send to “caravans” at once, moments apart, and leave Goon guessing; split up my materials across too many ships for goon to harass them all; different strategies on different days.
          Harrass Goon space/territory when with raids while I send the most important trade vessels to market

          Keep your enemy guessing. It seems to me getting predictable means getting dead. Or at least losing out big time.

          • PopeJamal says:

            The easier thing for the corps to do would be to have everyone stop playing and subbing for three months or more.

            I spearheaded this campaign to great success four years ago.

            Granted, I don’t advocate whining on forums to have people make everything better, but I do believe firmly that allowing people like this to grief large groups under the guise of “lol gameplay! real economy!!!” does more overall damage to the culture of multiplayer gaming on the internet than any so called progress towards building ecosystems with more emergent gameplay.

            Large groups of people voting with their feet would teach both devs and griefers the lesson that nobody wants to play with an asshole. If the only :”emergent” behavior we can get is “assholery”, then they can keep it. I want no part of their so-called progress.

          • MrUnimport says:

            In reply to Jamal’s comment:

            Right now, player agency is a non-quantity in the vast majority of games out there on the market. The “culture of multiplayer online gaming” has been in the toilet since the first FPS with friendly fire, the first game with blockable doors. Griefing isn’t a result of culture, it’s a result of human nature combined with freedom and a lack of consequences.

            Now, given that virtual freedom is so very rare, especially in the MMO genre, populated largely with theme-park-pattern clones, why is it so terrible that a developer has decided to take the training wheels off and let players really go at it? Freedom in a video game imbues virtual objects and actions with meaning: a weapon is a weapon, not something to hose down streams of pop-up target enemies with. EVE keeps making headlines because man’s inhumanity to man isn’t an exploit in the game mechanics, it’s a factor to be taken into account.

            Also, from what I hear, an opposing alliance attempted to spearhead the defense of the station by declaring war against the goons, allowing them to target the blockaders without being shot at first. They pulled out because nobody cared enough to join them, whether because they were profiting from the blockade themselves, because they didn’t want to make enemies, or because they simply couldn’t be bothered when they had other business to conduct.

          • psyk says:

            Or because goons make up such a large amount of players it would be stupid to try. (If i remember correctly the reason for larger corps being in the game is due to goonswarm)

          • jalf says:

            @PopeJamal What makes you think that is the *only* emergent behavior Eve gets? What exactly do you propose CCP do?

            People *already* voted with their feet. 10+ million voted for WoW. 2-300k voted for Eve. But I don’t see how trying to turn Eve into WoW is going to help anyone. For better or for worse, Eve’s selling point is that it is very much player-run, and that players can, with very few restrictions, do what they like, and affect the universe with their actions.

            What exactly is it about this operation that you feel is/should be against the rules? Why exactly does CCP need to clamp down on *this* specifically?

          • iainl says:

            Well, the essence of highsec is that PvP is supposed to be punished by in-game Space Police. This act is basically a big highlight from the Goons that CCP need to decide if the punishment isn’t harsh enough, or if they’re as uninterested in sub fees from highsec players as all their expansion work being aimed at nullsec suggests.

      • Xiko says:

        The corp provide the ships. They produced a lot more than 15k trashers. I have no idea the number of tornados and guns/ammo etc.

      • TODD says:

        Goonswarm reimburses all ship losses through taxes, planetary customs, and alliance moon mineral production provided they’re fit correctly and are lost in the right place. Often the reimbursement goes above and beyond the normal cost of the ship, so pilots are literally paid to die. Every goon who throws his ship into the fray this weekend will walk away slightly richer, and he who made certain wise investments in the last two months will walk away phenomenally richer.

  19. wodin says:

    Whatever it’s about it tells me no other game has come close to this one for Multi player. It’s some amazing feat. This is the only game I really know about that has actually created a whole new alternative universe.

    Mind blowing when you think about it.

  20. Arglebargle says:

    Seems a lot like Lord of the Fly-ers….

  21. jellydonut says:

    It’s not a ‘15000-strong assault’ – they’ve built 15000 ships for the occasion, seeing as they die every time they fire on someone in a high-security area like this. They die, respawn in their clones, take out a new ship, die again.

  22. Blackcompany says:

    Every time I read about EVE, I want to get into the game. The more I learn about the way CCP runs – or rather, does not run – an MMO, the more fascinated I become.

    Then I remember that pretty much your only avatar in game is a spaceship, that combat is a matter of lock-on-and-watch, and I shy away again. Just hard to imagine spending a monthly sub just to “be” a space craft all the time. (Not knocking it for those who like it; just personal preference.)

    Would love to see CCP, or other, similar-minded dev, take on an MMO in a post-apocalyptic or sci-fi setting (outside of space craft.) Looking forward to their take on World of Darkness, as well. Growing gradually more curious about true, developer-hands-off Sandbox MMO games and less interested in the Themepark MMO.

    • S Jay says:

      You really should try, the community is very very different from other MMOs. And the faction wars, probably unique.

      • Blackcompany says:

        S Jay:

        I think I likely will try before too long. By Winter, I strongly suspect I will complete the Mass Effect Trilogy, which I almost think is the final great, single player RPG series I have missed out on. As I have tried numerous Thempark MMO games – and found each of them, from Wow and Rift even up to Tera, very much wanting – I suspect I will finally find the courage, and the time, to delve into a Sandbox MMO.

        In light of my increasingly serious consideration, I must ask: Why do other corps not plan ahead for Goonswarm antics? Seems squirreling away some resources would be a good plan. Also, lending their own strength to some of the major trade hubs might prove worthwhile for a time.

        Face it: Corps have a literally vested interest in trade hub stability. Seems to me you keep yourself at war with GS (police won’t touch you if you declare war on them) and then station permanent protectors, on rotating shifts, near major trade hubs. Its boring, I get that; but its part of a game like this. If GS knows they might get jumped – and handily, and right away – the moment they try such a raid maybe it slows them down some.

        Also, if GS knows other corps have stockpiles of minerals with which to combat any attempt at OPEC like domination of the market then these raids go for nothing except showing their assess, taking losses and generally getting behind in the arms race against other corps which they doubtless must maintain in order to pull this shit.

        Or am I missing something else because I don’t play?

        Edit: Better yet, corps should stockpile and NOT advertise the fact. That way, next time GS or someone like this pulls a fast one and raids the market, they can sit back and take advantage of GS losses with none of their own. Laughing the while.

        This is why CCP do not get involved. Just as the game gives Goon the power to be, well, Goon…it also gives others the power, in the game, to put a stop to these sorts of Shenanigans.

        • Premium User Badge

          phuzz says:

          I’m gonna guess corps are doing all of those things, not to mention the number of opportunities for scamming, I spotted someone trying to sell “safe lists” :D

        • TODD says:

          Goonswarm annihilated its main rival less than two weeks ago and secured its borders. That was a condition of deploying to Jita on schedule.

  23. fTB7tkKO says:

    I think CCP should immortalize this event by replacing the Goons with NPC’s when the invasion is over. Like a permanent Goon Incursion.

    It would be healthy for the game to have Jita replaced.

  24. SwedishChef says:

    Wow this really makes me miss this game and wonder why there arent more like it. CCCPs philosophy has always been you can do what you want as long as you deal with the repercussions. They dont punish people for pushing the limits. I remember when Zombies set up a smart bombing battleship in a major hub with unallied people repairing faster than the space cops could do damage. BRILLIANT! This is opposed to most games that are extremely strict and if you do something that displeases them, even if the game allows it, will get a piano dropped on you from a tall building. I got to be a part of the first Fountain alliance and spent several years in a small merc corp. I have never had so much fun in a computer game and doubt that I will again.

    • psyk says:

      How is that brilliant? its exploiting fucking stupid game play mechanics, that LOL are getting fixed.

  25. S Jay says:

    Would be very interesting if a new trade hub was started.

    • Apolloin says:

      There’s already a trade hub about 10 jumps away in Gallente space. Plus Amarr is a bit of a trade hub further up in Amarr space.

      Jita is just the biggest one. Really, the blockade should be causing way less terror than the random suicide ganking of more expensive ships in high sec at random and at will.

  26. Erhard says:

    Mmm, now on Caldari Business Tribunal place. Nothing happening right now.

    Just applied for this game (14 days trial). It has potential, jumped to Jita, nothinghappening, just a lot of police ships buzzing the jump gate.

    • Blackcompany says:

      Its between 0730 and 1030hrs US time. Not saying All EVE players are from the US. But I would give it time. Might be it will resume later today.

      Might also be that other corps are sending ships to Jita and declaring war. Which unless I am mistaken would be very bad for Goon.

      • Erhard says:

        Is that East of West coast?

        At the jita jump are already some patrol ships. The way see it, there wil be alot of stuff to salvage after the raid anyway, outcome of the battle does not matter who wins.

        But it strikes me that they didn’t opt for a diplomatic solution, like in the real world. It’s only banking.

        • Blackcompany says:

          Currently 1114hrs East Coast time. That means 0815 on the West Coast. Probably too early for much to happen. Damn, were I at home I might well sign up for a trial just to see this shit go down.

          I wonder whether corps other than Goon will gets ships in place around Jita and try to fight back. Also, could be everyone is simply avoiding Jita now. CCP has a banner up warning folks not to go there; even that little bit of interference seems too much, to me, but it is what it is. Sure Goon is pissed about it.

          Be interesting to see whether anything more happens. My bet’s on the raid has been spoiled by the internet, no one goes to Jita and thus Goon has no one else to raid there. Now, whether they adjust their plans and raid another trade station instead remains to be seen.

          • iainl says:

            As an organisation whose only reason for existence is upsetting others, I’m surprised The Powers That Be don’t troll Goonswarm more often, really.

          • Blackcompany says:

            Yeah, I never understood that. Why don’t corps get together and essentially resolve to return Goon to the Stone Age? I mean, surely, there are a large enough number of corps who hate Goon – especially after today – to do so. So why not launch a coordinated counter-offensive?

            Anything else would be illogical.

          • Phantoon says:

            Because
            A: That isn’t what trolling means, and
            B: Their end goal isn’t “ruin fun for everyone, ever”

            Good job demonizing them, though. Makes you look intelligent and reasonable when you come out of the gate swinging… at what amounts to a chess tournament with drama.

          • Soon says:

            I suspect rallying a large number of forces to a common cause and then effectively coordinating their actions is much harder than Mass Effect has us believe.

          • psyk says:

            “B: Their end goal isn’t “ruin fun for everyone, ever””

            yes it is they have proven that time and time again in many different games.

            “CCP has a banner up warning folks not to go there; even that little bit of interference seems too much, to me,”

            Why? CCP rule eve why would they not put out travel advise?

  27. Premium User Badge

    Kirrus says:

    This sounds awesome. I’ve twice tried to get into EVE, with no luck, just keep finding getting cash a bore, and those dead-times between corp ops also boring. :(

  28. Megadyptes says:

    This is beautiful.

  29. Phantoon says:

    Even for the people that hate Goonswarm (for whatever reason), can any of you deny they don’t make EVE more interesting? Any of the times I’ve heard of EVE news and wanted to play it, it’s when they went and did something.

    • PopeJamal says:

      Yes, very interesting, but interesting != fun.

    • cckerberos says:

      Interesting for me, someone who doesn’t play the game, to read about? No doubt. But I don’t think particularly think they make playing the game more enjoyable. I mean, I like reading about all kind of terrible things that I never, ever want to personally experience myself.

  30. Gnashy says:

    I can’t really comment on the Goonswarm or Eve but I would like to speak on the Goon culture.

    I was an original SA member back in 2000 right after Lowtax switched from his existing message board software to Vbulletin. This was back when Lowtax was making his name with Jeff K. and forum moderators like Jeddite, CLSG and Artfag were prepping the canvas for the eventual creation of the Jackson Pollockesque self-portrait of the Goon culture as SA shat and dripped itself and its members across the internet.

    SA has always been a mean-spirited, low-self esteem refuge for angst-ridden, socially retarded geeks, nerds and malcontents. SA was founded on the spirit of harassing and bullying others on the internet. What started with the Awful Link of the Day has morphed, 12 years later, into what is going on now in EVE and every Goon-related escapade in-between.

    It’s incredible, and slightly depressing, to see how much money Lowtax has squeezed out of a site and the mob mentality of the Goons, but I suppose a 10 dollar forum membership fee is a pretty cheap price for companionship for the average Goon, so in retrospect, it’s not surprising at all.

    The only good things that ever came out of SA were several early memes, Ewe Boll kicking Lowtax’s ass and already.be.

  31. Kaiji says:

    Probably the dullest and least immersive game I’ve ever played.

    Whenever I read stories about people’s amazing adventures in EvE I imagine someone wearing a forced grin while swimming in treacle.

  32. psyk says:

    Goons grief by numbers that’s all they can do.

  33. Bungle says:

    Eve is all the proof I need that capitalism is evil and democracy is not to be trusted.

  34. Geen says:

    Bleh. Goons. All I can think of is how much they grief Space Station 13 servers.

    • zeekthegeek says:

      You mean the game that they’re basically the only community of? The game that is literally entirely about griefing and nothing else? Yah, they’re so fucking evil right? They also host most of the servers and do most of the map editing.

  35. buzzmong says:

    No mention that Kristoffer Touborg (aka, CCP Soundwave) is a former (officially anyway) member of Goonswarm? I think it’s only fair.

    I holeheartidly support the Goon’s Burn Jita Campaign though, it’s fantastic and I’m not a fan of the Goons.

  36. Alikchi says:

    1) Goons do something.

    2) Those lacking the irony gene (or with a grudge) slither into comment threads and call us homophobic misogynistic racists. Or cyber-bullies! That’s in vogue lately.

    3) “Goons were cool in 2003 but now they ban me for being racist and bigoted. 4chan and reddit are cool now.”

  37. wodin says:

    It’s a game, thats all. Not life or death.

    I’m reading a book at the mintue where someone is talking about three different kinds of people.

    1. Those who take life seriously, work hard, move up the ladder, strive for wealth and material things. They find No2 people stupid and No 3 people weak.
    2. Those who see life is absurd and a big joke. They can laugh at it and find it all really rather amusing, don’t take it to seriously and are laid back. They find No1 people funny and No 3 people sad (i.e feel sorry for them)
    3. Then those who know life’s a joke but feel the joke is on them, thus get depressed and stressed and take it to seriously. They can’t understand No 1 or 2 and think they look down on them.

    In a game environment surely everyone needs to be type two person. I mean I find it real funny people take it all so damn serious, enough to get stressed and angry about it. Though in real life I’m a No2 withmy foot in No 3 aswell.

    • FunkyBadger3 says:

      A well reasoned excuse for being a dick, is still an excuse for being a dick.

  38. ghelna says:

    This makes a nice contrast to (for example) wandering into a higher level area than you’re supposed to and getting suspended for it.

  39. Premium User Badge

    drewski says:

    I find this interesting in the same way I find watching ants build a colony interesting. I’d never want to be an ant.

  40. Premium User Badge

    Erithtotl says:

    As I see it the fundamental flaw in emergent, no-hold-barrred MMOs like Eve, is that the balance of hard-core compeditive MMO players is shifted dramatically more towards ‘anti-social geeks who want to impose their virtual will on everyone else’ than in real life.

    In the real world, we don’t have anarchy because people have decided that is not a very fun place to live. Yes, there are people who might enjoy an ‘Eve-like’ world but they are in such a minority their opinions don’t matter much when the majority of society believes things like laws, police, morality, and social structures should be the more predominant factor.

    But online, the anarchists have a huge edge, because online gaming skews towards younger, male, single, often living-at-home types with limited social connections and tons of free time. Since the #1 online currency is time, the older, employed, married with children types are at a massive disadvantage.

    My point here is that the kind of free-for-all sandbox Eve promotes only really works if the players with an instinct to combat these sort of tactics has a chance. As it is, the number of asshats playing Eve, who get off on ruining other’s days, vastly outnumbers those who in the real world would band together and create some sort of counter.

    I have yet to see a game that allows total freedom where the player driven recourse for protection against ganking can match the power of griefing, because there are just so many more people with the time necessary to be good and powerful, who get off on griefing than the other way around.

    This situation in Eve would be a lot more interesting if there was an equally strong alliance of players fighting back against Goonswarm. But there is not, because the gankers rule the game, and those who might be inclined to fight back have lives.

    • SnakeNuts says:

      That’s exactly why I’m drifting away from MMOs more and more and will be reverting back to good old pen-and-paper roleplaying (and some forum-based ones) to get my escapist kicks.

      I’ve dreamt about creating an economy- or crafting-based MNO a while back and even started drawing up graphs and charts and writing a setting etc. But at every turn the thought that one or more players could basically make it descend into chaos and anarchy took most of the enthusiasm away.

      Sad, really.

  41. El_Emmental says:

    well, that’s EvE stuff going on : real-life stock-exchange greed… IN SPACE !

    (and in a video-game so there’s only virtual poverty, riots and massacres)

    What I found more fascinating is the current disinformation by the few people who read about the Mittani case.

    Friendly reminder :

    – Mittani got drunk during the EvE fanfest, despite having to make a public speech as the leader of the Goonswarm during the “Alliance Panel”, despite being the current chairman of the “Eve Online Council”.

    – he included in his presentation the “funny” (according to him, when he was drunk and made that choice) part where another player tells him the loss of something in EvE is strongly affecting him, to the point of bringing him to depression.

    – during that presentation (visible by attendees and everyone looking the video streams), he communicated the ingame identity of that player, so other players could contact him if they wanted, to harass/mock him even further (or to simply contact him), to bring that player in the spotlights, hoping it would generate more drama/nervous breakdown. Something not unusual on the Internet (see: trolling).

    – after becoming sober again, and after reading about the case online, he realized the true meaning and consequences of his actions and apologised : full public apology + contacted the targeted player to apology and send him some ingame money (~the equivalent of real-world compensations) + asked to be removed from his position as the chairman of the Council.
    * Oh, and he clearly rejected putting the blame on the alcohol, clearly stating he decided to get drunk and should fully face the consequences.

    – he was removed from the Council and the next one (= 2 terms ineligibility) and banned for 30-days from EvE. Despite “never” logging on EvE (a private joke of Goonswarm, as if their leader was too busy with the meta side of EvE to spent time inside the game itself), Mittani felt it was going too far for him (and his character) to fully accept it without losing face, so he protested against it – people on the Internet became even more mad at him.

    And this madness brought some funny details :
    – the depressed player now committed suicide and is now dead & buried
    – the depressed player is still depressed, suffering alone in his dark corner (in fact: his life changed, now EvE is not affecting him as much as before, he isn’t harassed)
    – the Mittani guy organized the harassment of a player (nb: there is an ENORMOUS difference between inciting and organizing a crime)
    – the Mittani guy is trying to be perceived as a good person
    – the Mittani guy is blaming alcohol
    – the Mittani guy never apologised
    – the Mittani guy should be put in jail for 3 to 5 years for pushing someone to suicide, something is wrong somewhere
    – the raid on Jita is a direct retaliation for the 30-days ban of Mittani (nb: that raid was planned for months before the EvE fanfest happened)
    – Goonswarm is full of racist, misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic twats. I don’t know why no one sneaked something about a totalitarian regime there.

    Whenever I read these details, and how the people are making up these informations, I see what people see as “evil”, as “bad”, from a sociology perspective, it’s a real goldmine.

    Informations most people won’t read :
    – I believe the 30-days ban was appropriate. I would have added a new written rule regarding harassment and communication of ingame or IRL identity during public events (such as the EvE fanfest).
    – I never played EvE. I read about it, I saw a friend playing it casually (he played it for a year, doing PvE), but I never played/installed it.
    – I never went on SomethingAwful, not even as an unregistered lurker. If days had more than 24 hours, perhaps I would check it out sometime, to see the real thing. Same with Reddit or 4chan, reading real-world and gaming news (and the damn Sunday Papers, why are these articles so long and interesting ?!) is already taking too time over my actual-gaming.
    – I’ve never been in a clan/alliance bigger than 30 people, and none of these groups came from another community.
    – I don’t believe harassment is fun, I don’t believe making other people suffer (physically or mentally) is the way to happiness and joy.

  42. Ultra-Humanite says:

    Honestly I don’t know why people think this is brilliant. I’ve played EVE and an overwhelming majority of the players I interacted with really just wanted to be left alone from shit like this. So when people drone on about how great and free EVE is, just remember that these “events” cater to the enjoyment of a miniscule fraction of the total population. So unless you define awesome as being a tiny handful of the overall player population ruining the game experience for the overwhelming majority, then this is actually pretty fucking stupid.

  43. Vandell says:

    I like this, but the reasons for it (an asshole was banned) is retarded. The guy harassed a person who expressed suicidal tendencies. I don’t fucking care if he was drunk – he did it, he’s a fucking asshole, and doesn’t deserve to play the goddamn game anymore. He should have been permanently banned for his actions – on any other game, he would have.