The De-Dauntifying: DOTA 2 Gets In-Game Tutorial

By Nathan Grayson on March 2nd, 2013 at 11:00 am.

Even those who are less knowledgeable about MOBAs than they’d like to be but plan to rectify that as soon as humanly possible (IT’S ME, OK FINE JEEZ IT’S ME OH GOD I’M SUCH A MESS) know this much about DOTA 2: it’s the hard one. Thus far, League of Legends has paved my road to vague competence with copious pointers, helping hands, and utterly heroic shoves in the right direction, but DOTA’s idea of a red carpet involves my blood. Lots of my blood. So Valve’s decided to change that. Well, a little, at least. The storefront, hardware, and fuuuuuture creator that occasionally develops games has added an in-game tutorial to its arena battling opus. But this is just the beginning, and it wants your help.

The single-player tutorial, which stars Dave – sorry, Davion – the Dragon Knight, comes as part of this week’s patch. In short, it’s Valve’s attempt at making DOTA’s early hours less daunting and more entertaining, an intersection of intentions that just so happens to meet at Significantly Less Reading Lane. The mega-developer is, however, acutely aware that this is a work-in-progress, so it’s requesting player feedback:

“We’re sure that you’ll think of a million things that we’re not teaching new players yet, and you’ll be right. This is just the first step, and we felt it was important to ship it so that you could help us figure out the right next step. Bringing new players into Dota is something we’ll be doing in collaboration with you, combining single player tutorial adventures with features like the recently released Hero Guides.”

Promising! It remains to be seen just how effective the tutorial will actually be versus, you know, just diving into the deep end, but this is Valve we’re talking about. If it’s actually dedicated to the cause, it’ll certainly find an interesting (and hopefully workable) way to achieve it.

This week’s DOTA patch is actually quite a hefty one, and you can read up on it in detail here. So, right then, I suppose it’s time for a new spin on a debate that’s so ragged as to be nearly disintegrating from use: whose new player experience do you think is better at this point? LoL’s or DOTA’s? I mean that in terms of both short-term and long-term education, too. Especially in MOBAs, do you think a trial-by-fire is part of the experience’s appeal, or is it just a needless extra layer of complication?

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165 Comments »

  1. maximiZe says:

    I very much like the approach of the first chapter, it requires you to last hit multiple times in several sections before you can move on, instead of just telling you “if you last hit creeps you get gold” and leave it at that.

  2. Premium User Badge

    Luringen says:

    Guess I’ll give it a shot. I’ve played one online MOBA match (in LoL) before. All of us said it was our first time, except one. That one guy kept telling us how shitty we were in all caps the rest of the match. We lost against the bots. The words “GARREN NO JUNGLE N000B” will forever haunt me.

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      Continuity says:

      Its something of a faux pas to go into a MOBO game and not know the basics, you have to consider that the other people on your team are basically stuck with you in that match for 30+ minutes, and your skill will directly affect their enjoyment of that time.

      I didn’t even go into coop vs bots until I had a pretty good grasp of the basics, I think I was lvl15…cant remember exactly.

      • Yosharian says:

        I disagree, any game played versus bots is strictly for learning only. Anyone complaining about noobs in a co-op game versus bots needs a lobotomy.

        • Kitsunin says:

          Bots can still steamroll you if everybody is feeding super bad, which can make it pretty hard to learn. Still, I agree with you.

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          jrodman says:

          That seems easily falsifiable. You could definitely construct a very challenging, demanding game vs bots.

          For example, that’s basically what a WOW raid can be (though there are definitely easier experiences in there too) and if you show up for one of those without any idea how to play you’re a jerk.

          In the world of MOBAs though, I agree. It’s fundamentally a PVP game, and having bot matches is for learning.

          • Stevostin says:

            Actually human vs bots in DOTA2 aren’t trivial at all. Some things, like grouping and nuking, are done deadly well by the AI. I was playing against bots first then switched to regular matches and it was WAY more easy.

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            jrodman says:

            I didn’t claim that the bots in DOTA 2 are trivial or undemanding. I claim that they’re not intended as the primary experience, and that that their existence is essentially there as training wheels.

            It might be hard to learn to beat them, especially on their harder settings, but if you manage to do it, continuing to play against them is going to be pretty dull. In a game where ‘playing against the computer’ is the idea, there’s going to be a lot more involved than “do it again”.

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            Malibu Stacey says:

            The bots in Dota 2 are bullshit levels of OP even on lower difficulties. They will time their use of their abilities to the microsecond to keep you permanently disabled when they come to gank.

            Annoyingly only the enemy bots seem to be able to do this, try playing a game with 4 bots on your team & it’s pretty much a simulation of your average matchmaking game.

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          Continuity says:

          Well you’re partially right at least – I mean nobody who has progressed to PvP takes coop seriously, its just treated as a scratch pad for experimental builds and learning new champions -, but I think the principle holds, its just a question of degrees. There are those who haven’t yet progressed to PvP and they will take coop much more seriously.

          You don’t jump into PvP without at least some time in coop and imo you don’t jump into coop without at least some time in custom vs bots.

          I guess maybe I’m just too considerate… ?

          • Ringwraith says:

            How dare you be considerate and reasonable on the internet, and in a MOBA of all places! Despicable.

      • RvLeshrac says:

        Yeah, new players are such dicks, not wanting to spend 40 hours outside the game reading wikis and 1000-page guides on what the current meta is before they play games which aren’t particularly enjoyable anyway due to the assholes who populate them.

        • fuzzy_dunlop says:

          man you said what i wanted to post!

        • MrUnimport says:

          “We didn’t want to play your dumb game anyway! Everyone point and laugh at those nolifers!”

      • arccos says:

        I understand the attitude that poor team play affects your enjoyment of the game, since I share the same problem. But if you can’t enjoy the game when teammates play poorly, the problem isn’t them. It’s you (and me) and the way you pick your matches. You’re inevitably going to run into people that are significantly better and worse than you. The only way to avoid it is to play with teams around your skill level.

        I would argue it’s also a flaw in the design of LOMAs as well, since so many people share our issue.

    • misterT0AST says:

      I suggest you learn the basics with LoL before passing to Dota. It really IS more simple and intuitive, and you don’t necessarily have to know what does what for playing.

      For example, in Dota there are spells that hurt you until you kill something, or cast a spell, or if you move. The game punishes you for not knowing a LOT of rules.

      LoL has more escape mechanics, and abilities do simple things (damage/stun/blind/silence/slow/taunt and that’s it).

      The community in Dota is more acid: the mentality “I don’t deserve such teammates therefore I can leave/insult them” was born in Dota 1 and carried over to Dota 2, while LoL was the first game of this kind for many, and it actively discourages you to leave or insult EVEN IF you’re surrounded by idiots.

      Leavers and flamers are present in both scenarios, but in LoL you can tell those dipshits they’ll face the tribunal, and some people farming for a “green ribbon” will actively try to be polite just to earn it. in Dota they will go away with their own sense of morality intact, just blaming “those other idiots” who didn’t play as they wanted, without the ominous gaze of Riot, the Summoner’s Code, the Community looming on them.

      To recap LoL has a centralized, dictatorial system of values that are to be respected no matter what, in Dota all is left to the individual, and some of them misbehave, and then keep on misbehaving thinking that the fact that they are good gives them the right to whine and insult just because the 4 people in their team are hurting their enjoyment.

      The fact that “it’s acceptable to be aggressive if you’re right” is NOT discouraged in Dota by any means.

      My skin has hardened a lot in 1200 games of LoL, so now I play Dota without any problems, I can defend myself, both playing and talking, but for newbies I strongly, STRONGLY suggest you start with LoL.

      • maximiZe says:

        This is simply wrong. You’ll suck and get flamed to hell and back jumping into either game, and the basic mechanics LoL would prepare you for are nothing more than glorified RTS standards which you could pick up in two bot matches in Dota 2 as well. Further than that it’s just building bad habits you’d have to unlearn completely if you want to go anywhere in Dota.

      • Low Life says:

        I don’t know if it’s because I only play Single draft and All random in Dota 2, but I very rarely see people being abusive. If they’re being proper shitheads, the ignore functionality is just a couple of clicks away anyway. Of course that means I won’t see anything useful they might say, but they probably care more about winning than I do so it’s all good (and the three other people are just collateral damage, sorry!).

        I’ve played about a hundred matches now, and “very rarely” would be like 5 matches at most.

        • maximiZe says:

          If the first thing somebody says is scapegoating or blatant flaming chances are that they won’t contribute anything useful to the game plan, so using the ignore function is highly advisable.

        • DerNebel says:

          I have similar experiences. It may be because I’ve never actually made it to lvl 30 in LoL, I much prefer Dota2, but the community feels a lot more toxic than Valve’s creation. League players never really seem to give up. In Dota you might get flamed a bit if you play really badly, but they’ll let up on you. This is compared to a certain type of LoL player that will see you make a bad play, flip a switch and shout at you at every single turn for the rest of the game.

          My friend who is new to both games has had about the same experience, though we ARE stacking a lot, so we might just have a lower frequency of terrible people.

      • Sic says:

        I play DOTA2 quite a bit (started playing a couple of months back), and I haven’t encountered anyone being abusive whatsoever.

        The only guy that ever even used coarse language was a guy that kept spamming about DOTA2 being shit, and that LoL was much better.

        I was pleasantly surprised about the amount of really well mannered people playing DOTA2. I expected it to be a cesspool of human waste. It really isn’t anything like that.

      • FionaSarah says:

        It’s literally amazing to me that you think the community in DOTA2 is more toxic than in LoL. Nothing could be further from the truth IMO.

    • godofdefeat says:

      If you want to join the DOTA 2 RPS group, then here is the link:
      http://steamcommunity.com/groups/RPSDota

      Or if you are more of an casual gamer, here is ANOTHER group:
      http://steamcommunity.com/groups/casualdotachums

      Our mumble server is the classical:
      server.herosquad.org
      Port: 64738

      Also you might want to check Purge´s tutorial: Welcome to DotA 2. You suck.

  3. Yosharian says:

    The best advice I can give to someone attempting to learn this game is to invest in a mic and get someone to play with who knows the game. Good communication and a bit of advice here and there makes the game a lot easier to learn.

    • RobinOttens says:

      ^ This very much. Better yet, get someone to teach you in person, on a PC/laptop next to you or watching over your shoulder.

      A friend of mine who’s way into DOTA 2 did this, took me along for a bunch of matches and explained all the basics. Even took me on some one-on-one practice rounds to teach me specific characters. Way more compelling than reading or watching tutorial vids.

      I guess a playable tutorial is a great first step to get you started as well.

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    Jackablade says:

    The thing is, while a tutorial is a nice start, the real problem with getting new folks interested in these MOBA games is their reputation for having the most aggressively vitriolic community in gamedom and being designed in a fashion where anyone trying to learn the ropes or making the slightest mistake will immediately incur the ire of these people.

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      jrodman says:

      Yeah, I agree with you, but my perception is that the racism, sexism, homophobia, misogyny and general rage is trending downwards in DOTA 2, at least. I think the “low priority” system combined with attrition is having a positive effect.

      It’s still a fairly low bar though.

    • NothingFunny says:

      it happens like in 1 out of 10 games and there is ignore option, you know
      so just mute/ignore those ragers

      • boe2 says:

        -completely- disagree.
        I tried DOTA2. I was new, so I chose a match VS bots with difficulty on easiest.
        Tried 3 matches, in all 3 I got got obliterated by the most insane flaming and insulting within literally the first minute of the game. It’s not just calling people “noobs” either. It’s downright agression and suggestion to throw yourself in front of a truck IRL because you picked the wrong lane or something.

        Never trying DOTA2 again. The reputation of having the most rotten player “community” is completely justified.

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          wengart says:

          Comp stompers are usually bigger douches than normal players.

        • Askeladd says:

          You got “meta-gamed” there bro!
          The “community” got you, but isn’t it even more fun to find people you really like amongst the filth?
          Also 3 games is nothing. Play 300 and come again with an opinion, because your ‘tier’ in which you play is important too.

          • boe2 says:

            Ah, I should play 300 online games (invest about 150 hours) before Ill start liking what Im spending time on. Got it.

          • Askeladd says:

            Well, and I like games that have depth. Those 300 games which will probably take 200 hours are just to get you familiar with all the heroes and teaching you more advanced tactics. At that point the game really starts to develop because you slowly specialize. Took me half a year? Dunno I haven’t been playing in the last two months.
            If you don’t have the time you aren’t in the consumer group games like this are aimed at, which makes me wonder why people bitch about its time investment. You can compare this to EVE Online which is kinda like a second job, but I find Dota 2 to be fun.

          • boe2 says:

            You willingly spend 200 hours on something you don’t enjoy. I think we both reached the same conclusion here.

    • LionsPhil says:

      You know what’s hilarious?

      I tried a game vs nothing but bots so I could newbie around in the interface without inciting the rage of any angry internet men, since the Steam friend who’d gifted me the invite wasn’t around to play with and had gone off the game anyway.

      A good half-hour in, having started to get the hang of things and begin to push toward a win, I got a “connection error” and it crashed back to the menu.

      Singleplayer. Only bots.

      Got uninstalled after that.

      • elfbarf says:

        A recent patch made it so single player bot matches are hosted locally. The game is still in beta and uninstalling it over something so minor is practically the definition of overreacting.

        • LionsPhil says:

          The other thing that’s hilarious is the rabid fanbase.

          Having your singleplayer skirmishes not depend on a network connection was a solved problem seventeen years ago.

          But, hey, let’s make this crystal: it wasn’t the only factor by a long way. The game is a clumsy mess all over and does nothing to indicate that pouring hours into learning its gratuitous complexity will ever pay off.

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          jrodman says:

          Yeah, a seemingly deliberate player-unfriendly design choice is no reason to stop playing a game!

          Okay sarcasm over.
          It may not be the accurate determination, but it’s plausible, and a perfectly legitimate reason to kick something to the curb.

          • MrUnimport says:

            Surely if RPS commenters got so worked up over user-unfriendly design STALKER wouldn’t have such a cult following around here. I imagine it’s the elitism of the awful DOTA community getting people’s feathers ruffled to the point where they look for excuses to give up on the game.

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            jrodman says:

            Okay Mr jerk-face. People don’t need *excuses* to not like games, they only need *reasons*.

            As someone who actually appreciates this game, I can say it is *correct* that it has both needfully and needlessly unhelpful design and UI issues. I can recognize that people have experiences that cause them to depart from games that may not represent the true nature of those games. Even if I’m a fan of the game. I can also recognize that those choices often, but not always, reflect more on the game than the player.

      • Askeladd says:

        Your post reads like this:

        (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻)

        • SuperNashwanPower says:

          It reads like … the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man shouting at a woman’s breast sitting next to two push-tacks connected by fishing wire?

          I honestly didn’t take that way from it. However, Ghostbusters. Awesome.

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          Malibu Stacey says:

          Most of LionsPhil’s posts on any number of topics read like that.

  5. 1Life0Continues says:

    I wish I could like MOBA games, I really do. But until they fix the player mindset (which will never happen) I’m not even stepping foot into the games.

    Instead of yelling at me, TEACH me. The bots can only take me so far, but the meta game concepts are something I’m not going to get without practice. And you yelling at me and insulting my family and my supposed sexual preference doesn’t help me in any way.

    • Vorphalack says:

      ”The bots can only take me so far, but the meta game concepts are something I’m not going to get without practice.”

      Spectate your way to competence. I honestly think the DotA 2 live game browser is the best learning tool in any multi-player game on the market. Obviously there comes a point where you have to learn to play the game yourself, but enough time in spectator mode will make sure you are practicing the right things from the start.

      • AngoraFish says:

        I refuse to research a game, that I don’t know, for hours in order to get some vague sense of what I’m supposed to be doing. This is not a professional sporting career, it’s supposed to be a game. Watching others play a game is not fun, playing is fun. Listening to shirteads throw abuse at random strangers is not fun. Ergo, DOTA2 is not a game.

        • Brun says:

          By that logic sports are also not games.

          • AngoraFish says:

            At a professional level you are correct, at least from the perspective of the participants.

          • Brun says:

            No, even at the amateur level that logic implies that sports are not games. I’ve watched and played in exactly 0 games of Cricket, therefore I could not be expected to know what to do in a pickup game with some randoms without someone at least taking 10 minutes and explaining the rules to me, and even then I’d be pretty terrible.

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          jrodman says:

          Your general position that you don’t want to spend time watching others play games is certainly valid. However I challenge you to try it sometime (if you have not) because I think it’s pretty fun!

          That it happens to prepare you to play the game better is pretty irrelevant to me. I’m not ever going to play it. I just find the really good players going up against each other fascinating.

          • AngoraFish says:

            I played over 100 hours of DOTA, which I enjoyed, but I’ll admit that my tolerance as a n00b since then has decreased. I think I was able to get into DOTA because I did have a group of friends who were all at the same level. We played exclusively against bots until we started getting a clue. Probably took 30 hours of play, minimum, to get to that stage. Unfortunately, that group of gamers has dissipated so I’m back to playing on my own for 30 hours or passing on the game entirely.

        • Vorphalack says:

          While it is obvious you are trolling, i’ll bite because I want to drop a metaphor regarding people who don’t do any preparation for a multi-player match.

          Imagine a 5 a side football team that finds itself one short for the weekly game. They decide to get a friend in, only this friend has not only never played football before, hes never even seen a game in his life. No problem the team thinks, everyone with a vague interest in sport should at least know the principles of football, its pretty simple and he will pick it up. So the match begins, but the new guy sits on the bench for the first 5 minutes while he decides where he wants to stand. After finally getting onto the pitch, his team notice he’s wearing a tutu. As bizzare an item choice as that may seem, no harm has been done yet so they play on. The new guy runs around aimlessly for a bit until the ball finally falls at his feet. He immediately picks up the ball and runs it into the opposing teams goal, to the disbelief of his team mates. After getting a yellow card and some choice words of ”encouragement”, he understands that picking up the ball was the wrong thing to have done. Determined to learn from his mistake, next time the ball falls at his feet he resists the urge to pick it up, and instead volleys it into his hands and runs in another spectacular goal. The referee is left with no choice but to send him off, award 2 penalty goals to the opposition and bar him from future competitions. Upset and humiliated, he still isn’t sure what he did wrong as his former team mates jeer him off the pitch. Clearly football is a stupidly over complicated game with a despicably abusive community.

          You can choose not to prepare a bit, and you will be that guy. No one likes that guy.

          • Premium User Badge

            jrodman says:

            Dunno, that guy sounds pretty awesome.

          • Vorphalack says:

            He did score twice.

          • AngoraFish says:

            Sounds like the problem is your initial (obviously flawed) assumptions, coupled with a range of bizarre, irrational and extreme mis-characterizations.

            Your examples are tragically evocative of the kinds of hyperbolic invective and casual vitriol tossed around simply because someone chooses to buy a Hammer of Might instead of the Helm of Invincibility. A better example might be that your hypothetical philistine player tragically turns up in Nikes instead of Adidas.

            Maybe next time you might, instead, offer the guy a friendly, non-competitive kick-about to explain the rules, and a few mulligans, rather than throwing them in the competitive deep end straight up and losing a potential convert to your code.

            You know, some people do actually find the exercise of kicking a ball around kind of fun, without any need for the potential of a superficial ‘victory’ at the end to justify the effort.

            Thank you for demonstrating my point.

          • Vorphalack says:

            5/10 needs more sarcasm and bile.

        • joker101 says:

          Ergo, you’re a dumb shit.

    • Triplanetary says:

      Meh, I agree that the yelling and assholery are uncalled for, but they’re not under any obligation to teach you. If they were they’d be spending every minute of the game tutoring noobs instead of, y’know, enjoying the game. That’s what tutorials and bot matches are for. And there are shittons of web sites and YouTube videos and guides online more than happy to teach you.

      And after that, you may still get some shit from some asshole in your first few matches, but that’ll be their fault, not yours.

      • Premium User Badge

        jrodman says:

        Teaching can be very low-impact. You see someone make a mistake you let them know.

        “You probably want to save your stun for other players, it’s a lot of mana to use on a creep.”

        The only problem here is people get their back up for being criticized in a group, and Steam lacks direct-player-messages to work around that.

        • sabrage says:

          “stfu I feed”

        • Smoky_the_Bear says:

          Very true, many a time i have offered helpful advice to someone making a mistake only to be met with a torrent of abuse because the misguided idiot cannot handle any sort of criticism even if it was completely constructive and friendly advice.

      • Smoky_the_Bear says:

        Well also there are levels in the game for a reason, it should equate to everyone at lvl 1 being similarly nooby and will screw up loads. Ofc that doesn’t happen because max level people create a second account so they can faceroll noobs, then get their panties in a twist when people cost them the game. People just need to not worry about jumping in and playing imo, low level games are generally messy anyway and by the time you progress high enough you will have played enough games to understand enough to not suck, just ignore the idiots along the way.

    • Shookster says:

      No, I totally agree. The MOBA community is definitely the thing that keeps me away from these games.

      A couple of my roommates in college were big LoL players, and they told me I should join them. So I installed the game, and was going through the tutorial when one of my friends walks in to watch me, and after standing there silently for 5 seconds, yells, “Yeah, Shookster’s never played a game like this guys, it’ll be a while before he’ll be ready to play with us!”

      After that, and a couple games where my being a n00b was the most offensive thing in the world, I gave up. I play games (especially multiplayer games) to unwind and have some fun. I’m not ever going to take a game that seriously.

      • Lemming says:

        This, and the fact that these games aren’t nearly fun enough to justify that learning curve and hostility, IMO.

        • Askeladd says:

          Learning is fun. They never taught you that huh? That’s what DotA players do and they enjoy the game. They get better, and at some point – the knowledge they learned – opens up a totally new game which seems to appear out of nowhere.
          But if you have to force yourself learning this game, then it’s certainly nothing for you. I just think some people aren’t approaching it the right way – also it’s very hard at the beginning if you never played a MOBA.

          Remember: this is still in beta, tailored for DotA 1 players.

          • Lemming says:

            Passive aggressive much? I’m happy to learn things that are worth while. In my opinion this is not one of those things. Being berated every step of the way while learning something is not what I call fun learning. If that’s how you get your rocks off, then good luck.

    • Apocalypse says:

      Tournaments are amazing to watch and amazing resource to learn how the game works. And with good commentary the effect is even stronger. Furthermore at least the league of legends matches are on their own very enjoyable because the outcome of battles and matches is never sure. Some little stupid mistakes can change a whole game if the opposing team sees their chance and use it.

      At least for my taste LOL is more fun to watch than Dota2, because LOL is less complex and more straight to watch, but in both games watching a few matches can give you much more insight about those games, and entertaining.

      • shostakovich says:

        jrodman,

        Are you sure you’re not picking a couple of particular situations with random people and labelling it as the “COMMUNITY”? I play this game for almost 10 years, I know how bad people can be in online, competitive games, and still I think you’re not talking about the community I live. I cover the Dota 2 competitive scene on Team Liquid, I run a website containing statistics from the professional scene, I help casters and they think I’m awesome because of it. I hang around on reddit and /vg/ and both places are really nice, I hang around with goons and they’re also very nice, not to mention Team Liquid.

        If you really want to say that the community is shit, at least mention names. Or your only COMMUNITY experience was inside a USW/USE server?

    • midnightspecials says:

      well if you still willing to play Dota 2, add me up on steam(DAT ASS). I can help you go through the basics. You definitely cannot rely on pub players to teach you.

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    Gap Gen says:

    The tutorial is just a teenager racially abusing you, right?

  7. Premium User Badge

    jrodman says:

    Overall this tutorial feels like the beginning of a game I would actually like, rather than a tutorial for a PVP game I refuse to even try to play. It makes me imagine some kind of single-player vaguely strategy, mostly hero-based game that might be fun to play. I don’t like RTSes because they get all fiddly with controlling too much on a tight time budget. I don’t like “MOBA” games because they involve competition and other people, two things I prefer to avoid. But maybe some intersection could create a fun new hybrid of semi-strategic action-”rpg”?

    Of course, that’s not where these “quests” are going, but as they release them, I’m going to play them and pretend.

    • Low Life says:

      Yeah! I guess it all goes, naturally, back to WC3. I loved the hero-centric missions (with no base building and little to no other units) in it, and this just makes me want more of those.

      • Premium User Badge

        jrodman says:

        They were a bit crap though, with too many units to control, and crap controls that had them walking into damage and such.

        The DOTA 2 general game design is a lot simpler on the controls and tighter in response.

    • Lemming says:

      Sounds a bit like you want Dawn of War 2, tbh. (the latest stand-alone expansion only, unless you’re happy with GFWL).

      • Premium User Badge

        jrodman says:

        Hmm, the theme / setting and use of the term “RTS” convinced me not to dig any deeper. I don’t seem to be able to find any demos of Retribution. Does the “Dawn of War 2 Single Player” demo do it justice?

        (I refuse to give money to any game that has GFWL, and refuse to install it either.)

        • Lemming says:

          It’s a kind of RTS/ARPG hybrid. It’s really quite something. The demo you refer to should give you an idea of how it plays, yes, but retribution itself is far more varied and you aren’t just restricted to a space marine campaign. Retribution is Steamworks, where as Dawn of War 2 vanilla and Chaos Rising are both GFWL.

          The game in brief:

  8. Dowson says:

    DotA 2 is quite easy to get in, play with Medium bots, who will win 4 vs 5 without you to get to grips with everything, go to Hard bots, who I find are better than a lot of actual players, and once you feel decent against them go into some proper games.
    Though be aware bots have the downside of being near impossible to coordinate with.

    Then in proper games, you’re with people who have never touched the game, including solo with bots, and die about 10 times by 15 minutes in meaning the game is just a steamroll, or about 2 people will leave before 10 minutes in, odds are both from the same team, making it a steamroll.
    Occasionally you get both.
    This will probably go on for about the first 20 games and you realise that winning or losing has absolutely nothing to do with your ability to play in such a low bracket, and by the time you play with people slightly better you should be pretty okay.

    • The Magic says:

      I find that even easy bots are better than most players i’ve been up against in the past 30 games or so. They’re almost impossible to kill, so i just use it to get used to the controls and the game and the hero.

      • Askeladd says:

        A lot depends on hero choice you make. The AI tends to get a gank-train team. If you really want to kill them solo without help from other humans you can go Nyx mid and gank the side lanes after you have at least some kind of boots and hit lvl 6. Then with full mana you combo them. R, Q, W, maybe E. Something like that. Try to hit both of them with your Q if the other one can stun you.

        Or just pick Sand King and get somebody to support you. They will feed.

        • Nick says:

          just remember to right click attack out of your R stealth before Qing!

  9. Jahkaivah says:

    If Valve really wants to help new players into the game they really shouldn’t have left it in paid-for beta for as long as this. It is going to cause serious problems when it finally releases and the people who were interested in not buying the game they were told was supposed to be free are dealt with that sudden “F2Per” stigma.

    • Dowson says:

      Its not paid for beta, I imagine less than 1% of people playing it now paid for beta access, the vast majority just get one of the tens of invites players receive, loads of websites are dedicated to giving them out and I think someone even set up a bot to automatically hand them out now.

      • Jahkaivah says:

        Thank you for letting me know about that bot, very helpful.

        Still reckon there is going to be a problem though unless Valve is prepared, plenty of people who aren’t interested enough in the game to bother with the invite nonsense.

    • Premium User Badge

      wengart says:

      I’m not even sure how that would be a thing. You have no way of knowing when someone started playing.

      • Premium User Badge

        jrodman says:

        I don’t think there’s anything terribly “exclusive” about early access to dota 2. People signed up, they got approved and got in. But the experience has been available for years as Dota not-2. The potentially exclusive early-players period happened many years ago.

        You can claim to be part of an exclusive club by talking about “pre-all-stars” or whatever, but I don’t see anyone taking it very seriously. I think a game that’s 6 years old or whatever just doesn’t have a lot of that energy anymore.

  10. DiamondDog says:

    I think I might be officially sick of hearing people say they will never touch a MOBA because of the community when they actually have zero experience of it.

    The idea that LoL and Dota players will all bite your head off as soon as you get in a game has turned into a pathetic stereotype that just isn’t true, and if that perception is actively turning away new players that’s pretty sad.

    I can’t sit here and pretend there aren’t some complete scum playing these games, but guess what, you’re on the internet. Good luck finding any community that doesn’t have a vocal minority of bastards. What you might have to do is grow a bit of a thick skin to deal with terse and short corrections to mistakes you make. If you’re in the middle of game you can’t really expect another player to type out a lovely little essay detailing where you’re going wrong. They’ll put it pretty bluntly.

    Anyway, ALL of that can be avoided if you play these games the best way. That is, with a good group of people, on comms. Both LoL and Dota have good RPS groups with people more than happy to give advice. There’s no excuse.

    • Premium User Badge

      RedViv says:

      Good words. If you would want to find a thing to enjoy that has any kind of fandom, community, or whatever, which has none of these toxic people (that even show up to comment on the SUPER SERIOUS WAR OF MOBAS in this very comment thread NO DON’T CALL THEM MOBAS YOU IDIOT) around… Then you’ll quickly find yourself out of any possible enjoyment, other than solitary rock-on-rock banging.

      • Chris D says:

        The difference is that most other activities don’t exaccerbate the situation by having mechanics mean an inexperienced player can unwittingly give a major advantage to the opposing team. “Feeding” just isn’t something that happens in even most other competetive games.

        I also find it curious that both of you seem to think that a good way to demonstrate the genre’s unforgiving reputation is undeserved is by effectively saying “Man up and get over it you wuss!”

        • JackShandy says:

          No, I think they’re saying you should fix the problem by playing with people you like instead of internet strangers.

        • Premium User Badge

          RedViv says:

          I would go more for “Don’t get demoralised because some people need to be arses, when the vast majority are really not like that, and rather enjoy the thing with friends and friendlies.” myself, though I can see how it could be spun that way.

        • DiamondDog says:

          At no point did I say anything like “man up” or do I think anyone is a wuss for being frustrated by unhelpful players. Don’t put words in my mouth. I went through the same things and I know it can be shitty. I just think there’s a bit of a difference between being insulted or shouted at, and a person rather bluntly telling you your item build is bad, or your ward placement isn’t good. You might have to accept people being less than saintly when they interact with you.

          You are of course completely right that the very mechanics of these games lead to pressure, and people losing their temper. If that isn’t something you’re prepared to deal with then I’m not going to change your mind. But these games didn’t invent griefing.

          All I really object to is the lazy vilification of a community that many people profess to having no experience with.

        • Chris D says:

          All right I guess I misinterpreted what you were saying. Apologies for any misrepresentation.

    • The Godzilla Hunter says:

      I agree, the majority of my matches in DOTA are with friendly people. Though, if you are really thin-skinned, just play with Russians/Chinese. That way, you can’t tell if they are abusing you!

    • Premium User Badge

      Jackablade says:

      Team Fortress 2 has a lot less asshats than the average online game. It’s debatable why that was the case, but I think a lot of it is down to a very well considered design that is easy to pick up and learn as the game is in progress so there’s less reason to denigrate the newbies.

      When I heard that Valve were working on a MOBA game, I kinda hoped that they’d have a go at doing the same thing – streamlining and reworking the traditionally steep learning curves and harsh penalties of the genre into something a bit more friendly to the casual player.

      • Triplanetary says:

        Fuck that. Fuck casual players.

      • Chriller says:

        The idea that there is a hat which TF2 doesn’t have the most of is intriguing.

      • maximiZe says:

        Go to a random Valve server and then say that again. I’ve had great online times playing TF2, but that’s simply because I found a server with cool dudes on it. Online communities aren’t homogenous, you can’t judge them based on little fraction of people..

        • Premium User Badge

          Jackablade says:

          Interesting. Maybe the US/UK community is different. The Australian TF2 servers are almost entirely free of jerks in my experience, and I’ve played a lot, on whatever server happened to have a good ping at the time. And that’s certainly not indicative of what the community is like as a whole – you’ll still get aspersions cast against your race, religion, sexual pursuasion or lineage if you log into a lot of other Aus game servers.

        • SkittleDiddler says:

          When I play TF2, I play nothing but random servers. That’s been the case for me ever since I installed the game over four years ago. My experience with the drop-in community has been positive overall because flamers and trolls tend to get kicked pretty quickly.

          My experience with DOTA2, on the other hand, was not good. The public noob matches I joined were inevitably filled with the most abrasively abusive players I’ve ever had the displeasure of encountering in any game. Because of the format DOTA2 follows, flamers and trolls don’t get kicked, which means you have to put up with them for the entirety of the match.

          I still have TF2 installed on my PC. DOTA2 was there for about a month.

      • MikoSquiz says:

        They seem to have gone with “let’s just inherit all the awkwardness because that’s the way the oldbies like it” instead, though, which is a shame. That shop system! Oy!

        • LionsPhil says:

          I never did work out how the hell that was supposed to work.

          Also, were this Valve at their usual, they’d have streamlined down the utter mess of tens of overlapping hero types into some core archtypes and then given them ways to vary playstyle within them.

          • MrUnimport says:

            “Also, were this Valve at their usual, they’d have streamlined down the utter mess of tens of overlapping hero types into some core archtypes and then given them ways to vary playstyle within them.”

            As much as I like pre-items TF2, is this really necessary? Is it that awful to have 100 characters in a video game? Does Super Smash Bros. have too many characters? Should you throw out the roster and replace it with five archetypes who can swap out attacks from their loadouts? Is there a fundamental reason why Demoknights and Demomen should be the same class and not two separate ones?

          • Askeladd says:

            100+ heroes? And somehow picks one of the worst heroes and finds a way to make him work? Something that was always there and nobody really thought about it before?
            This can’t happen when you streamline. A hero is not just created as a means to have a certain mechanic.
            Some people play heroes and buy all their sets because they love them.

        • maximiZe says:

          No, that’s the way it has been proven to work. Blizzard didn’t streamline StarCraft II, strangely they weren’t criticized for that – people who don’t like StarCraft simply accepted it was not for them and went on to play the games they liked.
          Apart from that the game is constantly being changed fundamentally (that’s for WC3 DotA and Dota 2), and the shop system has been revamped completely for Dota 2. Boggles my mind how much uninformed bullshit people tend to spew over these kinds of games.

          • Premium User Badge

            jrodman says:

            Well this argument is based on a false premise. Starcraft 2 *was* streamlined as compared to Starcraft 1. The units manage themselves vastly better, they shoot the correct number of times at targets, they path more reasonably. There’s no need to micro every single little micromovement to maximize output.

            They left in a high skill cap, they left in the need to juggle actions. They left in the essence of the experience but they removed the warts of the clunk in both the AI and some of the construction UI.

            Granted that’s not the kind of “streamlining” some are talking about, but it’s perfectly similar to the notable lack of a store re-org.

    • Nova says:

      The idea that LoL and Dota players will all bite your head off as soon as you get in a game has turned into a pathetic stereotype that just isn’t true

      Exactly. I’ve been preaching that for quite some time, too.

    • dE says:

      You’re getting tired of it? Good. I’ll rub it in some more. Moba Communities really are the worst. I’ve played those games, I know. Putting it bluntly does NOT explain the idiotic amounts of racism, death and cancer wishes. You want to paint it as isolated cases: That’s just not true. One example amongst many: The utter racist hitlerstorm League of Legends had when they split european realms. Those weren’t just a few, those were several thousand players dipping into their racist basement and digging up what racial slurs they could find.

      It’s not the internet either, there are some real shitstain communities, but even they don’t go that bad.
      Whereas many communities have abusive elements and moments of general aggression, Mobas DO take the cake, by a large margin.

      It’s not their fault though. It’s the way the game is designed. Everyone is hyped up to be the hero. The kicker is the respawn timer. The players unique snowflake just got thrown off the throne, for everyone to see. Announced in blaring sounds, flashy letters and autotaunt voiceovers. Look everyone, some player messed up. And thanks to that player, the enemy team is now much stronger. Congratulations player, you messed up real good. Control is taken away from that player. Enjoy spectating while the fire of shame burns within. But wait, that hero over there, isn’t he overextending just a bit? And that one down there, her stun timing was off a second. Oh, that explains it. THEY are messing up and what could anyone do about that. All that burning shame turns into pure utter hatred, it’s a vent that will lash onto anything it can find. Small mistakes, foreign sounding names, wrong language, anything goes.

      For reference, for the longest time Counter-Strike had a similar issue with its community. Oh was it the very worst. And there, the culprit was the respawntimer as well. Again the feeling of shame of having lost while being forced to sit still, watch everyone else play. It’s human behavior to seek for scapegoats.
      You could design around it. For example give dead players something to do, like (bad examples) give them blurred vision, without hud indicators and slow scrolling speed – of the entire level (without minimap of course) so they can scout the map in a very limited way. Allow them to ride shotgun with a still living player, providing some very minor buffs to them. Just give them something to do so they can’t focus on their shame so much. But stuff like that won’t happen, the Moba formula is too set in stone for any changes. And as long as people get all the time in the world while the game happily shames their failure, mobas will have the worst communities known to the internet. Yes, even worse than THAT place.

      • Brun says:

        The kicker is the respawn timer. The players unique snowflake just got thrown off the throne, for everyone to see.

        It’s cute that you say that, and it (ironically) betrays your hatred for members of these communities (or at least your belief that they are all egotistical assholes). But I don’t that’s really what it is. The respawn timer – or even dying – doesn’t really piss people off.

        DoTA, LoL, and other MOBAs are all team games. And what really ticks people off is the fact that having even one weak link (new or bad player) on your team puts you at an enormous disadvantage. Like, huge. To the point where sitting through the entire match feels like a waste of time, as you’re likely doomed from the start. People value their time, and good players want to spend that time on rewarding matches, instead of being continuously dragged down by new players. It wears on their patience after a while, and that’s what causes them to lash out. When an experienced player is looking to just sit down and get their First Win of the Day in (for the bonus XP and IP, in LoL at least), but instead has to sit through hours of terrible teams and losing games, it’s not unreasonable to expect them to get rather peeved.

        This is fundamentally a good thing, as it indicates that the game is balanced enough to reach that level of competitiveness – that is, you can’t (easily) carry dead weight, EVERYONE must contribute or your team will lose.

      • DiamondDog says:

        Well dE, you’re welcome to that opinion but I’d have to strongly disagree. Firstly, I said nothing about isolated cases. However, the thousands of which you speak are a drop in the ocean for the millions and millions that play LoL and Dota2. And frankly your assertion that other communities “don’t go that bad” is pretty laughable. To me, there is a big difference between the frustrated player that loses their temper once in a while, and the out-and-out hateful bigots. As I said, every community has that element. LoL and Dota2 are no different. Obviously both issues need to be addressed, and in LoL Riot have tried a few things to get players co-operating and also flag up abusive players.

        Your thoughts about why the community is supposedly the worst on the internet are very colourful, but barking up the wrong tree, ultimately. It’s more about making angry players realise it’s within their interest not to start arguments with team-mates. In my experience this is where most games go down the toilet. Once the petty bickering starts it just escalates until the match is completely disrupted. Giving them something to do while dead, as you suggest, would solve nothing. They will happily continue their grievance once they spawn. There needs to be a strong incentive to make people think twice about the way they act in general, not just while they wait to respawn.

        Anyway, by your language I’d maybe guess you’ve made your mind up about these types of games. You’ll have to look elsewhere if you just want a rise out of someone.

        • Brun says:

          Or, they need to add a feature which makes sitting through a certain loss with a bunch of new players feels like less of a punishment/waste of time.

        • Askeladd says:

          Just make friends and queue with them. Or get better until you leave that trash beneath you.
          You seem to be judging this game on public matchmaking. It’s a team game, and player composition is random.
          Maybe in the future the feedback system will work properly and all the shit-talkers get their own pool.
          But never judge a game solely on it’s community.
          I can’t remember one person that made me especially mad in 400 games. Oh wait there is one. My friend adding me to a Skype conference while I was trying to win the game, he threw. I was really mad, looking at my desktop. We might have won.

    • Premium User Badge

      jrodman says:

      I’m not much of a competitive player — I avoid it — but I find competition interesting. As a result I’ve been following a lot of DOTA 2. One result of this has been interacting to a limited degree with the DOTA 2 community, and I can confirm that it is indeed among the more toxic, awful, disgusting group of gamers.

      In most gamer circles, the standards for acceptable behavior are lower than reasonable, but in DOTA 2 it is normal to encounter racist, sexist, and homophobic phrases as a matter of course. Sometimes they are trotted out without even provocation or context. If there’s some pocket of players at some ranking of randoms who behave, then great. But there’s a whole lot of highly visible participants who as a rule, do not.

      Based on my personal experience, i can confirm that these perceptions are *accurate*, and would suggest that spending time in this community is likely to ultimately make you a worse person by exposure.

      • shostakovich says:

        jrodman,

        Are you sure you’re not picking a couple of particular situations with random people and labelling it as the “COMMUNITY”? I play this game for almost 10 years, I know how bad people can be in online, competitive games, and still I think you’re not talking about the community I live. I cover the Dota 2 competitive scene on Team Liquid, I run a website containing statistics from the professional scene, I help casters and they think I’m awesome because of it. I hang around on reddit and /vg/ and both places are really nice, I hang around with goons and they’re also very nice, not to mention Team Liquid.

        If you really want to say that the community is shit, at least mention names. Or your only COMMUNITY experience was inside a USW/USE server?

        • Premium User Badge

          jrodman says:

          All the DOTA 2 servers have some of this problem.

          Heck, during The International 2 qualifiers (West) a player from an invited team showed up on stream and thought it was “funny” to call one person a nigger and another a faggot. I suspect this was meant “in fun”, but the standards are such that during a high profile event people think it’s okay to play around with language of racism and homophobia.

          MOST of the time, the competitive scene is well behaved, but that’s not true of the public games, at all. I’m not imagining this. I have thousands of hours of logged time experience on a variety of servers and a variety of skill levels. The number of games I’ve seen that are free of hate speech is far less than 10%.

          Edit: typed east, meant europe which of course is west.

          • Premium User Badge

            jrodman says:

            This doesn’t even touch upon the level of 24/7 disgusting sexual scat trolls that were around roughly a year ago when I first got into the beta — blissfully stamped out. Nor does it get into the number of high profile players (around 10%) who regularly change their names to explicit racial, sexist, homohphobic and xenophobic slurs because “It’s funny”. Look at a top pub roster sometime and you’ll see “jiggle yr tits” facing off against “sup faggot?” and “russian retard” led by “brzil have downs”.

  11. Beernut says:

    A nice and prudent addition to the game, especially the last-hitting-stuff. Lacking basic information and experience can prevent many people from joining the multiplayer, so they stick to bots out of fear for being flamed for their mistakes.

    There are several possible routes to go from here:
    1. offer additional tutorials which showcase the other aspects of the game using the DK.
    2. offer additional tutorials which showcase the other aspects of the game using a new character for each one.
    3. re-program the first tutorial, so that the player is able to select his hero, to showcase each hero’s basic skillset and item preference (which would make implementing an additional tutorial massively more difficult due to the expectation to cater to every character each time)
    4. A combination of 2 and 3, but not for each character. Instead, take representative heroes for a role (carry, jungler, initiator etc.) and use them for teaching players the basic ideas behind the concepts.

    No matter which way they proceed, the first step looks promising enough and is a great improvement over “no tutorial at all” and the purely theoretical studying of guides.

  12. Stevostin says:

    I love Dota 2 but seriously, the very idea of 5vs5 is plain wrong. 80% of the game I play are decided either by a leaver, either by a feeder (a terrible player), eiter because one team feature a sub team of 2-3 skilled player raising one’s account. That let you 20% game decided in part by what you (unless you’re one of the above, oc) and on those ones half will be the really great enjoyable game that will make you suffer 9 extra shitty game to get another one.

    On the top of that the pace is 30min-1h per game. When 9 out of 10 games are not really interested in the detail of your gameplay decisions because feeders, leavers, etc, that’s a hell lot of time to waste.

    MOBA are a fine game conceptually but we need 3vs3 15-30minutes games. 3vs3 makes it hugely more easy to get a pick up team. Even if not, it make it more obvious for players that games shouldn’t run with one less player. 3 vs 3 team match would be more understandable (and would be largely complexe enough that most player still don’t get every skills and item have been use on what in the match).

    I know LOL did that, at least the 3vs3. Sadly it’s butt head ugly, dumbed down and not an option when you like DOTA2. But I hope Valve see the light on this and do it too.

    • maximiZe says:

      Time to get yourself out of the trench.

    • TehK says:

      “MOBA are a fine game conceptually but we need 3vs3 15-30minutes games.”

      Oh, but we have that! It’s called Awesomenauts! Great game, lots of fun :D

      On topic:
      I played a few matches with friends and had a great time in Dota 2. I had no experience whatsoever with Dota (1), LoL or HoN before and now I’m trying to learn all the theory bits (like which hero is that on the picture and what does he do), but I still somehow haven’t had the time, “courage” or motivation to go in there on my own, although I actually didn’t encounter any of that “vitriolic community”.

      At least I’m starting to learn what’s actually happening there and why people are watching this as an eSport. I still think it has a learning curve that resembles a wall more than anything else, so I quite like the idea of the ingame build guides and that new tutorial. Everything helps to make this game less intimidating.

    • MikoSquiz says:

      LoL already has a 3v3 mode, in fact. It’s got a couple of new features on the battleground instead of the usual buffs+dens and is pretty neat.

    • Safewood says:

      If 3 vs 3 were to be added to DotA then I believe it would run into the same issues, not at all being balanced.

  13. Seafort says:

    I find the concept of DOTA intriguing but I’m not willing to give it much time as the reputation of MOBAs for being a harsh and overcritical environment for supposedly playing a fun game precedes it.

    Until the attitude of the gamers changes for MOBAs it can stay off my play list. I play games to have fun not to be abused by an anonymous person who’s having a bad hair day.

    It’s their loss as it could expand the genre if it was more newbie friendly but it isn’t.

    • Iamerror says:

      LoL is one of the most popular games ever and Dota 2 has the largest player base on Steam by a wide margin. I’m sure the genre isn’t that worried about being more accommodating to new players. Incidently Riot have added the tribunal, ribbons and have banned high profile professional players who have acted vulgar etc; all in a bid to fix the problem you’re worried about nonetheless.

      The ‘terrible community’ is severely over-hyped and really shouldn’t stop you trying the games.
      Sure it’s bad at times, but it’s no worse than the majority of other team based multiplayer games – the pool of idiots is just wider due to the vast player-base and the general focus of the game. Provided you actually try to learn the game before jumping into PvP [practise against bots etc] you should be fine.

    • Askeladd says:

      Do you remember the first time you ate something, you thought of as something disgusting before?
      Getting over the smell/look and just eating it. As you let the taste fill your mouth you suddenly think differently about its smell/look.
      Congratulations, you have a new favorite food.

      • SuperNashwanPower says:

        Either that, or you are now happily eating shit

        N.B this is not a sarcy metaphor for any game, I just liked the idea of making yourself eat something that disgusted you :)

        • Askeladd says:

          I still have problems with some kind of foods. Sometimes just the thought of our weapons of mass consumption, that are all around us destroy any appetite I have for some dishes.

  14. Premium User Badge

    Ninja Dodo says:

    I once casually tried this after somebody gave me a beta key and was met with cries of “Go bot” and “Jaggernoob” and promptly remembered I have no interest in competing with anonymous assholes on the internet.

    They have their work cut out for them if they want to make this in any way appealing to the uninitiated.

    • Askeladd says:

      They don’t have time to explain to you. I Dota every second is important. Especially at the beginning, which means they can’t type anything to you, but be assured that every person that is at least decent is looking at what you are doing.
      In the end the problem you have can be solved by getting better at this game.
      Just look up PyrionFlax on Youtube. He sucked really at the beginning, but I think he carefully transforms into a good player with certain heroes, but as everyone else he has a long way to go to master the 100+ heroes.

      Btw: Hi, Pyrion.

  15. Stupoider says:

    Am I the only one who has never had problems with idiots in DOTA2? None as “vitriolic” as the anti-MOBA crowd perceive, that is. Of course you’ll get vocal people spouting insults in the chat but not on the scale people paint it as. Whereas in other team-based games where you can be relatively solo in your playstyle, DOTA2 REQUIRES team work. The effects of someone dragging the entire team back can be staggering. Of course, when a team works like a well oiled machine and everyone knows their roles, DOTA2 can be the most enjoyable, rewarding experiences you’ll ever have in a game.

    If you’re a new player, take some time to familiarise yourself with the RULES. You can’t just jump into a game and expect everyone to hold your hand and guide you through it. Can you expect to play chess without knowing the names of the pieces? How they move? How you win?

    http://www.playdota.com/learn

    There is a whole host of introductory videos available, and the PlayDOTA website still has a DOTA tutorial, most of which still applies to DOTA2. Also worth noting, SPECTATING. Perhaps the easiest way to learn the ropes, spectate a few games, ask other spectators if you don’t know what the acronyms mean or what is going on. Spectators are more likely to help you than someone currently in the middle of an already demanding game.

    Soon enough you’ll see why new players can try the patience of even the kindest player.

    • Premium User Badge

      Ninja Dodo says:

      Maybe it’s my mistake for trying it before release but, especially from a Valve game, you do not expect to have to study for a Masters and PhD in Playing This Game before you actually get to, you know, *play it*. If you can’t learn by doing it’s not something that’s ever going to appeal to more than a hardcore crowd of dedicated players.

      • Stupoider says:

        Perhaps it’s time to show a little more patience than the DOTA2 players and invest some time in reading up before you play? Do you remember game manuals? I linked to a video series, so you don’t have to read a word if you don’t want to.

      • Premium User Badge

        Ninja Dodo says:

        That’s totally fair enough, but the thing is I’m just not interested enough to invest that kind of time. I’m not that into competitive multiplayer at the best of times (except for local same or split-screen multi) so this kind of game, if it doesn’t grab me, I still have a backlog THIS big of games I actually want to play.

        There’s a point to be made here about how sometimes you have to invest a bit of effort to learn to appreciate something, but sometimes you just have to make the call that it’s “not for you”…

        That said, I might have another look if Valve does a developer commentary, cause those are always interesting.

        • Stupoider says:

          That’s entirely fine! Just don’t be afraid to give it another shot when it’s finally released, even if it doesn’t grab you at least you gave it a try.

    • Ysellian says:

      Chess is a 1v1 game, hardly comparable in this situation and besides chess is one of those games you can learn while playing totally unlike DOTA. DOTA is comparable to playing a team sport where a single poor playing player is enough to lose with very little room for the better players to make up for it.

    • boe2 says:

      “DOTA2 isn’t hard. Is it that much to ask to watch 10 hours of youtube vids before you jump in a game?”

      Don’t know if this hilarious or sad.

      • Stupoider says:

        13 videos averaging 9 minutes each, some of which are easily skippable. You’re looking at the length of your average film. Alternatively you could read the introductory guide I linked that you could get through in 30 minutes. Your call.

        What’s sad it pointless hyperbole.

        • Premium User Badge

          jrodman says:

          Stupidly presented, but I think the idea of his point is valid.

          Most players typically learn games in one of two patterns.

          1 – Play game, (reapeat)

          2 – Play game, research, (repeat)

          You are advocating some third pattern:

          3 – Research, practice, play game, (repeat)

          The really weird part here is where reserach is the first thing you expect people to do. That’s .. NOT what most gamers do or want to do. When games had manuals and I bought them, I was one of these people and would read the entire manual before beginning play, typically. I think I was the utmost exception. But nowadays when there are tons of games for cheap, and I would at least expect a demo to decide if it’s worth it, I’m at least shifted to pattern 2.

          So basically DOTA ensures the pattern 1 group encounters frequent failure with baroque design, and no proper documentation for lots of things you probably need to know. The pattern 2 group are ensured a bad first taste as well, even though they may eventually get somewhere.

          This is going to be solved, if at all, with the tutorial series, not a bunch of videos that no one is going to go looking for.

          • SuperNashwanPower says:

            I think I show both patterns depending on the game. On the one hand I mainly play single player games and do so for fun, the sense of reward. Its a relief from other things that don’t feel so good if you know what I mean, so generally if I start a new game I want to dive in, have some fun, and then learn stuff later if it grabs me.

            An exception would be RPG’s and character builds, where I might look at a YouTube videos to find out any hidden drawbacks or useful corners of a race or class. I was really glad I did that in Fallout 3, putting my INT up to 9 to maximise XP.

            So it depends on the game. If I wanted to play a game where I know that players are vocal towards people who do not know what they are doing, I would research before going in. My flat mate plays EVE and to be honest I would want to read an entire book before going in there.

          • Askeladd says:

            I think on the theory side Dota > EVE.
            EVE has more content that is dependent by player decisions, so experience is much much more important then the theory behind it.
            Dota also needs huge amounts of experience, but I find the theory deeper in form of heroes and item decision making.

          • boe2 says:

            WIth the major difference that there are large playergroups dedicated to helping new players in EVE. Announce in EVE that you are a new player looking for help, and you’ll get tons of suggestions of what to do next. Do the same in any dota game and you’ll be demanded to leave the game.

          • SuperNashwanPower says:

            Hmm thats cool, the EVE thing I mean.

          • Askeladd says:

            I think I somewhere wrote this already, but:
            It’s like asking how to shoot a gun in the middle of D-Day 1944.

            The people that get mad at you, because you are a noob don’t have the time to teach you everything. They have a hard time already just managing their own lane, and chatting is out of the question. You’d need to ask at the beginning of the game -before picking a hero – for directions, to have a chance at being helped. They just hope you are at least decent until you died 6 times in a row and the game’s already lost. Then the flame starts. And what are you gonna do next? You have at least 20 minutes ‘waiting time’ until the enemy team has farmed enough to crush your base. But everyone goes through that hell… at the beginning.

  16. mseifullah says:

    I find all RTS and MOBA games to be a pain to get in to. After repeatedly trying them and wasting a lot of time & money over the years and never once enjoying the experience, I’ve completely given up on them. In my opinion, MOBA games, aided by the community, are harder to get in to than any other popular genre of game. I painfully learned that no amount of hype is going to change that I just don’t like playing them (I’m looking at you “friends that convinced me to get StarCraft II after telling you that I don’t like RTS games”).

    With that said, I do enjoy watching Dota 2 matches play out; it’s quite a visual spectacle to see all sorts of swirls and explosions happening. I only spectate matches never ever *ever* attempt to play it.

    I always told myself that I’d give Dota 2 a chance once they put in a proper tutorial, but that moment has passed and I’ve no desire to even learn to play the game anymore.

    I find more enjoyment in just occasionally spectating a match and watching things beautifully die as I sit blissful ignorance as to what’s actually going on in-game.

    • Askeladd says:

      If you put +2 into research when you created your character learning MOBAs get so much easier.
      The economy, the hero choice, the item build, the player skill, the tactic, the team-play, the luck. All of that and probably something I forgot is a part of the MOBA genre.
      When you causally read a guide for Dota in your spare time you are doing it right. Because not knowing them puts you at a disadvantage. For example: Other people playing X hero already know him from Dota 1, you on the other hand try to develop from scratch. You are basically playing against a 10 year ripened version of something you are ‘using’.
      Dota 2 is really competitive and comes with a need to improve steadily or else it becomes boring, which is really rare to happen in a game with 100+ heroes and an unknown number of possibilities.

  17. Shepardus says:

    I’ve played League of Legends for several months now (I also have DOTA 2, but bounced off it due to its lack of a tutorial, which is apparently now resolved, and the fact that none of my friends play it), and I haven’t had all that much problem with the community. Yes, there are plenty of assholes, but from my experience most of the flaming happens in ranked games (“REPORT THIS NOOB FOR FEEDING”), which you could easily avoid entirely. People are especially tolerant in games against bots (the bots in LoL are a lot easier than the ones in DOTA 2 from what I’ve heard), and I do recommend getting familiar with the game by playing with bots.
    I’ve actually had more problems with people disconnecting than with people trolling or flaming.

    The learning curve for League of Legends specifically really isn’t that bad, no more difficult in my opinion than, say, learning what all the weapons in TF2 do. Each skill in LoL is generally easy to understand, even without checking the wiki and just observing, and the game actually helps you learn the basics of each champion by showing you a dialog box when you die that tells you what you took damage from and what you could do to counter that. It’s quite possible to learn to play LoL effectively with only a little outside effort put in to understand what terms like jungling, mia, blue/red buff, dragon/baron, and cc mean. I imagine DOTA 2 is significantly harder to learn, but as long as you’re tolerant of failure and are always willing to learn I think it’s perfectly doable for a mere mortal.

    And yes, it really is better if you play with friends. If you’re trying to decide which MOBA to play, and your friends all play one of them, pick that one. You’ll probably learn better from them, and friends are just more fun to play with.

  18. Mrs Columbo says:

    Crikey. I’ve never played Dota or any of these…’Mobo’…is it? things. Are they something to do with the hippety-hop music enjoyed by young people?

    I doubt I’ll try: it all sounds too fraught for me.

  19. ResonanceCascade says:

    I gave the tutorial a shot after being totally bewildered by the game itself. Playing Dota 2 is like listening to Ben Stein narrate the drying of paint on a wall.

    These games are so different from everything I love about gaming that they might as well be a different medium.

    • Askeladd says:

      Well, the tutorial is really boring. I hope you aren’t comparing the tutorial with anything Dota 2 related.

      I just want to put this here: http://youtu.be/lxyXasKGPRk Tobiwan loves his black holes.

      btw: You can’t find any ‘epicness’ in that video if you don’t understand what comes and goes with a single black hole and what it means for the losing and winning teams.

  20. dragondrop says:

    If you want to get into DotA2 you have to do it with the right mindset, I think.
    I watched some videos with commentary that got me interested, and from those I already knew a little bit about how the game works. Doing that (or reading a guide like the one from Purge) is better than just diving into it headfirst, for everyone concerned.
    What you have to keep in mind is that DotA2 is still a Beta at the moment. I would like to see these tutorials to eventually take over the basic training that guides/videos are doing right now.

    Regardless, if you start to play DotA, you have to come to terms with the fact that you are going to suck. But so are others. Once you realize that you can start learning from your mistakes.

    I’ve only seen very few persons that really are total assholes (one was exceptionally bad. Then I noticed his swastika steam avatar and I knew what was going on). The people that annoy me the most right now are ragequitters, because they are not helping anyone. Some of them are very good and rage because the rest of the team is bad, or they are very bad and quit because they get killed 5 times within the first few minutes and rather abandon the game than learn not to chase people under their tower early game. :)

  21. Premium User Badge

    Joshua says:

    TotalBiscuit’s “Hyper-Incomponent Single Draft Disaster” series actually already taught me a lot about the DOTA games, and did show that the community is not all that vitriolic. Atleast, not in single-draft

    (In single draft, you can pick between three random heroes, basically).

  22. deadly.by.design says:

    For prospective new players, I highly recommend playing your first few games with a friend who knows the game. Start out in a custom where they can show you the elementary parts, and then try playing coop vs Easy bots. When you aren’t a complete mess, try try try to play medium bots. I feel like you can start playing pub single draft once you can reliably beat Medium bots. You won’t have learned certain things players do, but I honestly think that’s better than going into pub games completely new.

  23. MellowKrogoth says:

    I have a hard time getting good at this game because of the need for farming and especially last-hitting. Some games can have long uneventful stretches where you’re just doing that, and I constantly feel the urge to run around instead and scout, or attack someone.

    Usually the results are bad, except the one time I played a cloaking assassin and terrorized the other team so much, all my money came from player kills. I was above everybody else in gear and levels and had barely done any last hit :P .

    I don’t know if I’m describing an innate flaw in the game or if it’s just not for me… I did have fun a few times, and watching matches is often fun (but too long for the entertainment I get out of it).

  24. Smuggins says:

    For those annoyed about the community, I’d say that Dota, like many online games, requires you to grow a thick skin. People like to be arseholes when protected by the shield of the Internet and Dota is no unique in this regard. Dota has the facility to mute people, and I would highly recommend using it. You can also report those who are abusive and nasty, though I think Valve has more work to do on this.

    Just a reminder to people that RPS has the Casual Dota Chums group for those of you who want a less flame-ridden and more educational Dota experience.

    http://steamcommunity.com/groups/casualdotachums

    Or find us on mumble:
    server.herosquad.org
    Port: 64738

    We’re a very mixed ability group and very friendly. Even if it’s your first ever game please come along one evening and we will get you going and teach you the basics. You will only learn so much in bot games, and personally I just jumped straight into playing (though have watched a lot of vids, read guides and had more experienced people teach me since then).

    It is a great game once you get into it, with a lot of interesting strategy, and I’d say you are missing out by letting some people typing mean words get to you.

  25. Zdg1233 says:

    IMO I find the “sink-or-swim” style of teaching more effective. In any multi-play games that teach you like this you try as fast as possible to learn how to play the game, while games where ppl accept mistakes a bit more and will rage after a lot of errors will make the player think:”no rush here, they aren’t really mad”. It’s kinda like choosing hard mode and Normal/Easy mode. Hard mode, although it makes the game hard (duh), will make the player get used to a higher level of play than most people are used to. That’s why when I buy or get a new game to play, I set the difficulty as high as possible so when I get used to that difficulty, I get used to all difficulties below it. That applies to MP games too; with the community being the difficulty setting. In short, the CHALLENGE gets bigger, the REWARDS get better.

    (BTW the title THE HARD ONE goes to HoN. Everyone rages there and it can be intense. And that’s how I got better, with ppl going WTF MAN U SUCK for the first 10 games. Best thing that ever happened in the game world to me. I DON’T HATE ANY MOBA’s.)

  26. dotareport says:

    The tutorial is a GREAT way to introduce and hopefully keep some new players in DOTA. The only problem I found was that it was a bit boring. I know it is only their first attempt, but hopefully any future mini “quests” they do will be a bit more interesting. There is a lot new players need to learn, so presenting it in a format that is both interesting and information will help them enjoy the game and want more.

  27. midnightspecials says:

    If any new players find that you need additional help or a guide, feel free to reply below your Steam name and I’ll be glad to help u guys out.