Sickstarters: Yogventures Dead, Confed. Express Postponed

By Alec Meer on July 17th, 2014 at 5:00 pm.

Important note: none of this means Kickstarter is broken or doomed or mostly abused. It’s just two instances of something not working out, in these instances because the particular people involved made particular (and perhaps troubling) decisions that were not to their backers’ benefit. I retain plenty of faith in the Kickstarter model, but I would like to see more checks and balances.

Tale of woe the first: after two years in development and a long period of silence, the official Yogscast game has been confirmed cancelled, despite bringing in over half a million funbucks on Kickstarter in May 2012.

The enormous YouTube network – already courting controversy this week, after disclosing that it’s making deals to provide coverage in exchange for a share of games’ revenue – is pinning the blame on Winterkewl Games, the at the time outta-nowhere third-party developer tasked with making sandbox title Yogventures. In an email to backers that’s apparently stirred up discontent, Yogscast co-founder Lewis Brindley confirmed recent concerns that the project had run aground, revealing that “Winterkewl Games have stopped work on Yogventures” and going on to claim that “this is actually a good thing.” His reason for this being that the game had turned out too ambitious for the six-person team at Winterkewl, who had several days before announced that the studio was dead.

Arguably the bombshell line, however, was “Although we’re under no obligation to do anything….” He’s not wrong as such, as Kickstarted projects do not legally have to be completed in order to receive their funding (the refrain which often flies around from online commentators is ‘Kickstarter is not a pre-order system’, which is very much true), but that is a very particular interpretation of ‘obligation.’ One that presumably does not include ‘moral obligation to the people who gave us their money in good faith.’

Brindley did, however, claim that “we’re going to do our best to make this right, and make you really glad you backed the project.” While there may very will be more replacement rewards yet to come, all this means so far is a free Early Access code for open-world survival game TUG. “In many ways TUG is the game we were hoping Winterkewl would create,” claimed Brindley. “It has huge potential for the future. We’ve been playing the Early Access version on Steam and you’ll soon be able to see us playing the game on Yogscast channels.” Which is at least partly because Yogs are now business partners on the project – which takes us back to the cash-for-coverage issues from earlier this week.

Wicky-wicky-wild-wild.

Calls from some backers for refunds have so far proven unsuccessful, but in terms of the now-cancelled in-game rewards (physical rewards were sent out long ago) for higher pledge tiers, Brindley says that “we’ll do everything we can to find cool things to take their place.” The company certainly has the resources, so hopefully they can make good in that respect. But speaking of the company having the resources, what most troubles me here is that they apparently won’t spend some of those resources (and presumably tons of art, sound etc assets from the aborted game) on getting the game finished by someone else. Not anything like a perfect comparison I realise, but we did see the Penny Arcade Adventures series continue on a smaller scale, with another dev at the helm, after the fancier-pants versions proved apparently non-viable. Of course, what we don’t entirely know is whose game Yogventures really was – Yogs’, Winterkewls, or both? – and thus what legal status the name and concept now has. Existent work has been passed to shonkily-named TUG developers Nerd Kingdom, so it’s not a given that nothing will live on, but the word ‘failure’ has been officially pinned to Yogventures.

Yogs have since issued a new statement to Eurogamer, which tries to be a little less breezy than the initial acknowledgement of the cancellation. “The failure of Yogventures is a matter of deep regret for the Yogscast, we put a lot of faith in the developer Winterkewl, including allowing them to use our likenesses and brand,” they claim. “However the project was too vast in scope to be realised and despite a huge amount of hard work from Winterkewl they have had to abandon it. The game as it stands it is not capable of being released and certainly wouldn’t live up to the expectations of the people that backed the Kickstarter or pre-ordered the game.”

As for Winterkewl, they acknowledge that the project proved too much for them – despite lead dev Kris Vale stumping up $25k of his own cash and the torrid development apparently costing him his marriage – and claim that they’ll “probably” shut down now. While the line from both parties is that Yogscast didn’t want to promote pre-orders because they were unhappy about the state of the game so far, the nature of the partnership and who was calling what shots and when is decidedly murky, too. Vale is taking this one for the team, however: “I’m deeply sorry that despite our best efforts we never reached a level of play-ability that inspired enough confidence from not only the community but even the Yogscast themselves. This is my fault, I agreed to every feature request we got because I didn’t want to lose the opportunity.”

Two days ago, Lewis from Yogs was implying that Yogventures would live on post-Winterkewl, as part of that new collaboration with TUG, and today confirmed that what code and assets did exist would pass to TUG devs Nerd Kingdom. So perhaps we may yet see a game with ‘Yog’ in the title, but it’ll be a different game from a different studio, and possibly a rebranded one at that. Certainly, not the game that people backed. What a mess, basically.

Meanwhile, tale of woe the second: backers of tactical RPG Confederate Express are dismayed by dev Kilobyte’s sudden announcement that they’re switching focus to ‘sister project’ Knuckle Club, leaving development on Confederate Express “postponed.”

As an apology, Confederate Express backers will receive “a free reward pack from Knuckle Club,” whatever the hell that means, and whatever the hell relevance a 2D brawler will have to people backing a zombie apocalypse RPG. Release dates are up in the air, people are unhappy that none of this was communicated until after a long period of near-silence in which there’s little sign that the project has moved past its initial demo status, and… yeah. Also what a mess.

It’s hard not to worry that companies setup Kickstarters speculatively until a better offer comes along, or to help fund a better offer. Who knows the truth in either of these cases, but it is sad to see the essential Kickstarter promise – giving fans what they want without middleman interference or ulterior motives – get polluted on occasion. I hope controls can be tightened, and that people using Kickstarter to fund their projects feel their obligations to backers are absolute, no matter what the small print might say.

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110 Comments »

  1. Chalky says:

    I have to say I saw this coming as soon as this Yogventures was announced. A gigantic scope and a team that had never made a game before.

    This guy had a very good blog post about it when the kickstarter first went up:
    http://projectorgames.net/blog/?p=209

    Sorry to anyone who backed it – I imagine we will be seeing a lot more news like this over the next 12 months as people realise making games is actually really really hard.

    • Stargazer86 says:

      It does feel like many of the Kickstarter projects are far too broad in scope to ever realistically succeed. With Indie developers, which Kickstarter was created to support, you really need to have a focused, tight, defined idea that stays within actual, obtainable boundaries. Even with Kickstarter funding, they don’t have the resources or manpower to allow feature creep. Yogventures could have certainly been a fine adventure game but certainly not in the sort of size or scale that they had pitched on Kickstarter. With that sort of massive scope, it was bound to fail from the beginning. It just goes to show that you really need to think carefully about what you back and realize that, yeah, there’s a decent chance you may not see a finished product.

      This is also the sort of thing that gets me worried about Star Citizen. People have dumped truck loads of money into the game and features just keep getting added and promised whilst actual produced content gets pushed back. Even with (what is it now? 24 million dollars?) the money they have, they need to tighten up and focus on getting a solid playable game out before they add more and more stuff. I know it’s supposed to be released in ‘modules’ and whatnot, but it just makes me a tad worried.

      • Shadowcat says:

        More than double that. It’s currently at: $48,236,021. The mind boggles.

      • ShadowNate says:

        My main concern about Star Citizen, is that by now it is quite the common knowledge that a kickstarter/crowdfunding campaign exhausts many resources. Many project creators have publicly stated that their kickstarter campaign was a full time ordeal and could not focus on any development during that period. A few went on a few days vacation directly afterwards.

        Star Citizen is doing a never ending crowdfunding campaign (whose extended/stretch goals often fund the campaign rather than the game itself – at least not directly, see: space ship commercials for ships not yet implemented), and it seems unlikely that they are putting all the resources they could afford in the actual game development.

        • DrollRemark says:

          Yeah, that’s the thing that baffles me the most about Star Citizen: They just keep adding stretch goals.

          I find that far more dubious than if they’d just said “Do you know what folks? We’ve done the Kickstarter, that was our funding, anything after that is just profit, thanks!” I mean, that’s the way anybody else works, and if I were a backer, it would be reassuring to know that they have some reserve of cash to plug gaps, should things go badly. Instead it’s alien languages and video trailers.

    • Lemming says:

      Oh, jeebus I just read that, and I read their response in the comments and just realised what’s happened: Kickstarter has become X-Factor for game developers.

      Seriously look at the developer responses. It’s all ‘but with love and the fans etc’…as if that ever was a replacement for ability. It instantly made me think of this:

      • dfk0nNL says:

        It really does seem like it. You wouldnt kickstart random people to make you a highway bridge.

    • solidsquid says:

      Interesting thing from Vale’s responses in that blog post. From what he says, the group who put together the Kickstarter and agreed to all the features that were decided on were visual artists of one kind or another. They were planning on using the Kickstarter money to bring coders in, meaning they didn’t have any coders working there they could bounce the features off to get feedback on the feasability. With any development project, it is absolutely crucial to have someone with an understanding of programming have some kind of input on what features would just be possible to realise, but not having this they (not surprisingly) agreed to too much and weren’t able to implement it all

      • Premium User Badge Nogo says:

        It’s incredibly crucial that they have some sort of competent project manager.

        I really wish I could find it again, but a while ago I read an accomplished indie-vet blog-post basically saying “it is better being mediocre at every aspect of running a studio than it is being excellent at one aspect and crap at the rest.”

    • Shuck says:

      Wow. I hadn’t read about this project before now, but reading the description, DjArcas’ analysis is dead on. This game was always an unrealistic fantasy. A bunch of artists promising to do something technically complex? (So no programers to offer reality checks.) An ambitious game design? (Unavoidably long dev time.) Too little money raised? (So they couldn’t hire the people they needed to have any hope of actually making this in the large amount of time it would take.) Yeah, this was never going to happen.
      The reality is that most games get canceled during development, and often for good reasons. DjArcas talks about money usually not being the limiting factor, and that’s true for traditional development processes. When you add the problem that there’s not enough money being raised via Kickstarter to actually fund the whole development, it’s pretty amazing that any games on Kickstarter get made at all.

  2. Orija says:

    A part of me feels rather giddy thinking about all those chumps who blindly threw money at this.

    • noodlecake says:

      There’s nothing “chumpy” about investing in creative people and the project not panning out. You aren’t buying the game, you are allowing a creative process to happen which may or may not result in a finished game. I’m happy as a kickstarter funder to be part of that. I didn’t fund this, though. It looked like a weird minecraft rip off with annoying yogscast characters injected into it for no particular reason.

      • Orija says:

        That comes without saying, but not when you put money into blatant cashgrabs like this or what Sarkeesian came up with.

        • Neurotic says:

          *goes* without saying.

          • Orija says:

            My bad, thanks for correcting. Not that it’s any excuse, but I’m a non-native speaker of English.

        • lorddon says:

          Yes, those who backed Sarkeesian are still waiting for her to release any of the videos she promised…

        • noodlecake says:

          Sarkeesian released what was promised, and I don’t know how you can say this was a “blatant cashgrab”. Do you work there? Do you personally know how the money was invested in the Yogscast game? No. You don’t.

      • secuda says:

        Yea sure, but what about the tiers you can choose from? it clearly say you will recive a game if you put in X amount of money when its done or even alph-beta test when it comes.

      • MisterFurious says:

        If you’re genuinely talented and skilled then you can find backing for your projects if you really try and have a great idea. Get some experience in game making and make a name for yourself. The problem with things like Kickstarter, and, hell, the internet in general, is that there is no quality control. You used to have to be good to get a record deal and then you got to make albums. Now, any jackass can make an album themselves and put it up online which creates a flood of crap so that genuinely talented people can’t get noticed. A lot of these people asking for money on Kickstarter are just dumbasses that really want to make the ‘greatest game ever’ and really, really passionate and have really good ideas but have zero skill or experience in making games, yet they are still putting the hat out and dipshits are happy to believe the promises and throw their money in. Then they try and make the game and find out that it’s really very hard to do and they fail at it. Then it’s “I’m sowwy!” but the idiots don’t get their money back. There’s also the problem of unscrupulous conartists making promises of games and collecting the money and then riding off into the night because they know they can.

    • Saii says:

      Yogscast’s main audience is children and young adults, so you’re basically saying “I’m glad all those kids were swindled out of their pocket money” (with the exception of the top tier backers, I’ll admit I found the people throwing £5-10k at it utterly baffling).

      • Koozer says:

        Who on Earth is letting their children spend their pocket money on high risk investment opportunities?

        • Shooop says:

          Stop right there.

          Kickstarter is not an investment. Never has been.

          You aren’t even allowed to invest on Kickstarter:

          Creators cannot offer equity or financial incentives (ownership, share of profits, repayment/loans, cash-value equivalents, etc).

          • Koozer says:

            I’m no Peter Jones when it comes to economic terms, but I meant it in the sense that they donate money in return for a small chance of receiving a product.

          • spectone says:

            Kickstarter is an investment in dreams.

      • aepervius says:

        “Yogscast’s main audience is children and young adults” i keep eharing that but all the people I kno which knows about yogscast are older adult (30-40). Sure it could be a bias on people I know, but where is the statistic to back that claim ?

        • teije says:

          My 13-year old son and his best friend are huge Yogscast fans. I had never heard of them before we started talking about their Minecraft stuff. So that’s my highly scientific sample size of two :)

          • MisterFurious says:

            And I’m 38 and watch some of their stuff, so there!

    • MadTinkerer says:

      Haha, yes, some of us “chumps” are actually quite happy with the dozens and dozens of successful Kickstarters they’ve backed which have actually been released and are mostly good stuff. Some of us “chumps” are well aware of the risks and are frankly astonished by how much actually does succeed despite the risks of independent software development that is also multimedia entertainment product and thus always has all of the possible risks of all other media combined.

      Quest For Infamy was just released! Divinity: Original Sin was just released! I have Alphas and Betas of most of the video games I backed! I have physical goods from most of the physical games and documentaries I backed! But, oh dear, I also backed one failed software project and I guess I must be a chump. CLEERLY CHUMPSTATUR HAZ FAELD FOREVUR

      • Koozer says:

        Keep your hair on and/or don’t get your knickers in a twist, he only referred to one particular project.

    • nebnebben says:

      That’s me, I feel quite a fool.

  3. ChrisMidget says:

    Whilst in theory Yogventures received over 500000$ on kickstarted a lot of it was not received. 680000$ of just the higher tiers was never paid

    • paranoydandroyd says:

      Math is hard.

    • Premium User Badge Anthile says:

      Regardless, it’s still an enormous amount of money that conveniently vanished into thin air. If I was backer I would find that very suspicious.

    • Chuckleluck says:

      We need commas in our numbers, STAT!

    • teije says:

      Your math confuses me. So they ended up with a deficit of 180,000? That seems rather improbable.

  4. Geebs says:

    “a free reward pack from Knuckle Club,” whatever the hell that means

    I sincerely hope it’s not a sandwich

  5. Hanban says:

    The Confederate Express thing really sucked. I mean delays are to be expected, but this just feels really shitty. They announced the sister-project thing a few months back, but at that point they made it seem like they were just helping out with some details and would return to developing the game I backed during spring. Well.. that didn’t happen. Just shitty communication for the most part, but I can’t help but feeling bummed out about it.

    • ShadowNate says:

      Not only that, this sister project that was supposedly only a small project that would end in 2-3 months time, now has actually launched a kickstarter campaign of its own! With a projected release date being this November (at this point, this is hardly to be taken seriously).

      The update of Confederate Express (and the developer’s comments on this one and the previous ones) make it seem that the engine developed for the new game is to be used in Confederate Express, but all development on CE was put on hold since the end of the last kickstarter (last November) and will resume (they say) after the end of the new kickstarter campaign for the sister project! Yeah right.

      A total mess. Sure they are not obliged to deliver anything. But they have to show that they tried to keep their promises. And they do get to wear the stain of being unreliable developers and/or project managers (at best) for the rest of their careers in the field. A lot of people are going to make sure of this.

      • InternetBatman says:

        It’s especially troubling since Knuckle Club is under a different name so it looks like a first time project with good pixel art.

      • kwyjibo says:

        A few people have backed it $1 just to sound off in the comments – https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kilobite/knuckle-club/comments

        “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me – you can’t get fooled again”

        • InternetBatman says:

          The developers comments on people’s demand that they finish their previous game funded by kickstarter before going back to kickstarter:

          “What an embarrassing witch hunt.”

      • malkav11 says:

        Oh wow. I don’t begrudge temporarily sidelining a game in development for something else that can quickly pay the bills, especially if some of the effort can be shared. I don’t begrudge starting a new Kickstarter project if you’re a large enough studio to need multiple titles in the pipeline, like Double Fine or inXile. But actively stopping development on the Kickstarter project you already collected money for in order to pitch an unrelated project to Kickstarter takes some serious gall.

    • JFS says:

      Glad I didn’t back it. It looked to good to be true at that time, and apparently it was.

  6. noodlecake says:

    Yeah. I’ve backed kickstarter projects but I don’t mind at all if they fail. It’s a shame but it’s a worthy sacrifice to provide creative opportunities that allow innovative and original concepts to exist. I’m an artist so I definitely understand what a wonderful thing kickstarter is despite projects not always going as planned. (I’ve never kickstarted anything. I’m just saying this as a backer and someone who appreciates creativity outside of the constraints of pleasing corporate shareholders)

  7. Bluestormzion says:

    Welp, that’s that. Kickstarter isn’t a pre-order. It’s giving people a gift if you believe their idea should exist in reality, and if they make it a reality, you may receive a gift in thanks for helping them get started.

    I’ve backed a couple kickstarters. Some have come through for me, some have not, and one came through but my jackass brother/cousins didn’t like the boardgame I got from it (Got Dangit, Kaosball is fun if you don’t go into the game INTENDING to ruin the match for everyone else, JOSHUA. He’s such an asshole…) But I have to assume that I’m giving a gift that I will get nothing back from. That way I can’t feel slighted if the money goes nowhere. As soon as I click that Confirm button, my money is gone for nothing. Anything that comes to me later is a pleasant surprise.

    • MadTinkerer says:

      ” It’s giving people a gift if you believe their idea should exist in reality, and if they make it a reality, you may receive a gift in thanks for helping them get started.”

      Yes! Thank you! That’s why they’re called “rewards” and not “products”. Kickstarter is an inherently risky proposition: a gamble, not an investment. Failed kickstarters suck, but the results work often enough that it’s totally worth “wasting” some of the money. Just because some con artists and well-intentioned unprofessional flakes are posing as competent game developers, that doesn’t mean all Kickstarters should be written off, especially when we’re actually getting a bunch of good games out of this that we otherwise would never have.

      • Baines says:

        The rewards really are orders.

        When you create a Kickstarter, you are required to legally agree to fulfill promised rewards. You aren’t legally obligated to fulfill the project itself, but if you put something like “$10 Tier — A digital copy of the completed game”, then you have just legally obligated yourself to deliver that reward or to refund money if requested.

        That’s the line that all these videogame Kickstarters cross. Despite the claims from some of the people involved in cancelled projects (like Clang!), Kickstarter isn’t free money nor is the legal obligation to which they’ve agreed hidden. At least not when you use Kickstarter as a pre-order service, selling copies of your game through the donation reward tiers.

        The Yogcast guys are being extra slimy here. Rather than just pleading corporate ignorance (Clang), pleading devastating real world “issues”, or even just offering silent indifference, the Yogcast guys are trying to spin the whole thing as a positive and something you should be thanking them for doing. If pressed, I’d get the feeling that they’d hold to the distinction that the Kickstarter was technically started by Winterkewl, even if the Yogcast guys were the ones truly responsible for it.

        • Premium User Badge Aerothorn says:

          Clang seems like a very odd example to pick, given that they delivered their backer rewards AFAIK (I got mine – was there some super-high-level one that wasn’t met?)

          And yes, rewards are a legal obligation, this is clear. If you can’t fulfill them, you have to give a refund.

  8. Neurotic says:

    Blech, Yogcast, far too big for their boots.

    • Hmm-Hmm. says:

      Whatever you think of them, it was really risky to put their name behind a game concept to be made by a small unknown developer. Moreso because one could argue that that also immediately brings their force of media presence to bear and anyone who backed it because it had to do with them might not have done so otherwise. Therefore this should reflect rather poorly on the Yogscast even though they did not participate in the development of this project.

  9. frightlever says:

    Some confusion from Alec I think.

    “He’s not wrong as such, as Kickstarted projects do not legally have to be completed in order to receive their funding (the refrain which often flies around from online commentators is ‘Kickstarter is not a pre-order system), but that is a very particularly interpretation of ‘obligation.’”

    Those who initiate a KS project are absolutely, legally obliged to provide what they promised, but Yogcast didn’t create the Kickstarter, Winterkewl Games LLC did. NB an LLC is the equivalent of a UK Limited company, ie if the company craps out you can’t go after the owners, with some provisos. Yogcast did lend their name to the project and obviously promoted it so there’s absolutely a moral obligation on their part, which, to be fair, they do seem to be pursuing.

    edit: LTK on the RPS forums, suggests that it looks far more like Yogcast approached Winterkewl to make the game, rather than the other way around. I think this needs clarification.

    • Premium User Badge Llewyn says:

      I see this written a lot, and I think it’s based on a fundamental misunderstanding. Kickstarters are obliged to provide the tier rewards, not to successfully complete the project. Of course this gets a little murky when most of the tier rewards are essentially the fruits of the completed project, but it would seem that the obligation can be met by releasing whatever there is in whatever state it’s in.

      I think software projects at least need some sort of rethink from Kickstarter. The obligation to deliver is essentially meaningless in that context, and IMO backers would be better served by an obligation to prove that all funds have been invested in the project in good faith.

      • Baines says:

        The tier rewards in this case include the completed game.

        The lowest tier, $15, promised a full copy of the game, as well as closed beta access. Higher tiers include things like multiple copies of the game ($30), the game plus alpha access ($25), and the game plus pre-alpha access ($60).

        It is debatable on how legally binding Yogcast’s involvement was with the Kickstarter project, and thus how liable it is for the legal promise to deliver those rewards. The Kickstarter is listed as created by Winterkewl, but lists yogcast’s webpage as the contact. The Kickstarter text is written as if it is written by Yogcast members, and not Winterkewl employees. And it isn’t like Winterkewl would have launched the Kickstarter without Yogcast’s permission and/or instruction.

        This seems a lot like previous attempts to dodge real responsibility when a high profile Kickstarter went belly up, like Clang!.

        • frightlever says:

          Yup. There have been a few game Kickstarters which were trying to raise seed money, and made this clear in the pitch even if some backers didn’t understand that. I think Brad McQuaid’s Pantheon was essentially going to be like that, though it failed. (SIDE NOTE: I tried searching for Brand McQuaid Kickstarter and Pantheon Rise of the Fallen Kickstarter – neither showed up in my UK Google results, so I’m wondering if they asked Google for a takedown of the Kickstarter link – or am I crazy?). 99% of games Kickstarters include the game as a reward.

          I mean sure, you could Kickstart a game and just offer your thanks and a mention in the developers’ prayers, but it probably wouldn’t work. This isn’t like paying a guy to make potato salad.

          https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/324283889/potato-salad

  10. Deano2099 says:

    They are legally obliged to finish it if the finished product was offered as a reward. Because they are obliged to provide all rewards.

    • Chalky says:

      Although this is allegedly the case on the kickstarter FAQ, you’d have to be living in a pretty bizarre reality for it to be actually feasible. The company making the game spends all the money and goes bust… legal obligation or not, you’re not going to get anything from them. It’s not like suing a bankrupt company is some how going to magic a bunch of money into existence for you to be awarded. That’s the whole point of declaring bankruptcy.

      • Deano2099 says:

        Wel yes, but that applies to all companies ever. If you buy a game from Amazon and they go bust before it’s delivered, you won’t get your money back either. But no says I’m living in bizarro world if I say ‘Amazon has an obligation to send you the game’.

        • Chalky says:

          If you said that after amazon had gone bust (like the developer has in this case) then I think you’d have real trouble getting your order, don’t you? Saying that someone is legally obliged to do something that is impossible is a pretty meaningless thing to say and your response reads like you knew this and intended to say something meaningless… which seems strange.

          • Deano2099 says:

            There are two developers in this story. One has gone bust, one has not and decided to simply stop making the game. I’ve no idea why you’d assume I meant the other one as obviously that makes no sense. And you said as much.

            I’ll have what you’re smoking.

      • frightlever says:

        This isn’t magic. You’re legally obliged not to murder folk, but folks be getting murdered all over the place. Failure to do what you’re not supposed to do has consequences. In this case, going bankrupt is one of the consequences. When a private individual does it, it can get messy, which is why most of those Kickstarters are now being offered by limited companies. Even then, being a director in a bankrupt company can hurt you financially for many years.

        • Chalky says:

          Well according to the blog post the guy is not only bankrupt but also his wife left him so I don’t think anyone is implying that kickstarter failure is a top notch business model with no consequences.

          What I’m saying is you can say the words “they have a legal obligation to give me my game” until the cows come home, you’re still not going to get that game. When a company goes bust, there are a whole load of people lining up to ask the receiver for a slice of the liquidated assets. Minor investors are going to be very low on the list, and if there is any money to sue for, it will be the people they rent offices or equipment from that are suing for it, not some chap who’s owed a £30 video game.

  11. fdisk says:

    When backing Kickstarter projects, a lot of common sense needs to be employed on the part of the backer.

    So far every project I have backed has come out or it’s well on its way to come out with frequent updates showing their progress.

    The things I alway skeep in mind are:

    - Does budget being asked for seem to fit the scope? Amazing graphics, features, or things that have never been done before for a $50,000 goal is a huge red flag.
    - Pedigree. Is the game being developed by a first time developer or someone with years of experience?
    - How far along in development is it before the pitch? Early Kickstarters got away with crude drawings and artwork but current Kickstarters need to at least have an engine in rough alpha that shows the game’s features are plausible and not a pipe dream.
    - Is it just a cash grab? Are they really hoping to make an awesome game or are they just trying to milk a nostalgic audience or already existing fan-base?

    Yogscast fits the first three to an extent but it was a very obvious cash grab. Why would I pay to fund a game that is basically just a Minecraft clone? Why not just play Minecraft?

    A lot of people are concerned about Star Citizen’s features but I’m not; they have the budget to implement them, they’ve released a pretty sweet alpha already, and they have the right team working on it.

    • Bull0 says:

      So people should follow your simple rules for happy kickstartering, but Yogventures satisfied your simple rules anyway? Good advice there.

      Sorry, I guess I’m just not that into the victim blame that gets advanced whenever a kickstarted game folds. If people believe your promises and put their faith in you (in this case kids! ffs) that doesn’t make them the bad guy when you don’t deliver.

      • fdisk says:

        Actually Yogventures didn’t pass my Rule #4 and was really weak on Rules #1 and #3 which is why I didn’t back it. Like I said, if you use common sense Kickstarter is great. So far every project I’ve backed has come out or is well on its way to coming out. Banner Saga was my only disappointment, it got made, they delivered everything they promised, but the game was very boring. Other than that Divinity has been fantastic, I loved Broken Age Part 1, Shadowrun Returns, and the rest are about to come out (Pillars of Eternity, Wasteland 2, Dead State, etc)

        • Bull0 says:

          Yes, I too have only backed successful kickstarters for quality games, I just don’t revel in pretending people who don’t have the same tastes as me are idiots. And I disregarded your rule #4 because it’s nonsense – your “blatant cash grab” is another person’s dream project. The others are based on something approaching logic and Yogventures satisfied them all. So, yeah.

          • fdisk says:

            Firstly I never said nor implied the word “idiot”; secondly, I’m trying to share a set of rules to follow for people who are thinking about backing a Kickstarter project because they have worked for me so far; thirdly, yes it does, it was a blatant cash grab since it was nothing more than a Minecraft clone with Yogskin, it did nothing new. Fourthly, when I think about it now, it didn’t really fit Rules #1 and #2 either.

    • Nixitur says:

      Hang on, how does it fit the first three?

      The budget was way too low for such a project as pointed out by DJArcas.
      Yogventures was Winterkewl’s first project, so they really had very little experience.
      I suppose they did have a playable alpha version, but that didn’t really provide much except a proof of concept of the voxel engine.

      So, it clearly failed three of those criteria and maybe, sorta fulfilled one of them.

      • fdisk says:

        You are right; the way I saw it when they first announced it the features didn’t seem very ambitious; just a Minecraft clone for $500K so it loosely fit #1; it had pedigree in the sense that famous people were attached and they wouldn’t want their names smeared (Which happened) so it loosely fit #2.

        You are right though; I was being generous. It definitely did not fit #4 though.

  12. InternetBatman says:

    The Confederate Express is a real surprise for me. Especially since they have a currently running kickstarter for Knuckle Club. It’s under a different company name. That’s shady as fuck.

  13. Irishjohn says:

    Well, Kickstarter seems to have made the point that creators ARE legally obliged to complete the project. Now, reading below, the term “good faith” comes into it, and this statement basically acknowledges that it’s not particularly enforceable. It’s still worrying, though.


    Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

    Yes. Kickstarter’s Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don’t. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.

    https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/accountability-on-kickstarter

    • Chalky says:

      Although this is the case, the “creator” in this instance is a developer called “Winterkewl Games”, which now no longer exists after having gone bankrupt.

      That makes this Terms of Use clause pretty meaningless.

    • Shooop says:

      Tell that to Neal Stephenson and Subutai Corporation.

      • frightlever says:

        I think they released their alpha to those who had a download of the “game” as a tier reward. It was pretty much unplayable but appears to have been, technically, enough for them to avoid a class action lawsuit. They were only funding the initial part of their vision of the game and not the whole game. Yeah, total bullshit but like I said, they appear to have gotten away with it.

    • Burzmali says:

      Here, here. Far to many voices are repeating that “it isn’t a pre-order”, and that creators “have no obligation”. If the backers of this project are in the mood, nothing is stopping them from filing a class action suit against Winterkewl and Yogcast. Hell, they probably will too, without all that much trouble, they could even take a chunk out of Yogcast most likely as Yogcast’s grasp on the law is fairly suspect.

      edit:typo

  14. xfstef says:

    So two youtube “celebrities” make a halfassed video about them wanting to make a game and although they obviously weren’t going to make it themselves, a bunch of people donate a crapload of money to them ?!?!? Not to mention that the team they hired for the job was pretty green for any kind of project, let alone one run by two childish and way out of their league youtubers.

    You know what, I’m not even going to hold it in: you’re all morons for giving them the money in the first place.
    Honest and hardworking people try everyday to succeed in this world, but you choose to help the two funny twats that you watch on youtube instead of the people who deserve it. Great judgement some people have…. *slow clap commences*

    • MadTinkerer says:

      Dude, I’ve backed lots of projects, not just Yogventures. And unless you said something back during the Kickstarter, your opinion is not “in the first place” at all. You are just piling on the bandwagon.

      There are lots of honest and hardworking people who have successfully released games Kickstarted by me. I backed Yogventures because it was one of the few projects that was a celebrity-endorsed-but-these-other-chaps-are-actually-making-it that I was interested in. I took a gamble, and it didn’t work out. But you know what would have been even more moronic?

      Always buying from big publishers and never Kickstarting anything.

      • Shooop says:

        There’s not many things more moronic than pre-ordering something that doesn’t exist, and could possibly never in the future either.

        • programmdude says:

          It’s not moronic to “invest/donate” money into a good project in the hopes that it succeeds. If people didn’t do this, we would only have games from huge companies, most of which are pretty crap. The reason why we have so many fun games such as minecraft is because someone gambled some of their own time/money into a project and they got lucky.
          Kickstarter is just a way of getting the startup money to bring your project to life, the alternative would be for the project to never exist at all. It might not work all the time, projects can be too ambitious or just plain bad, but when they work we get awesome games that companies like EA would never have attempted at all.

          • xfstef says:

            “It’s not moronic to “invest/donate” money into a good project in the hopes that it succeeds.”
            Dare I stop you right there and reiterate on my opinion about their project video. I believe I used the term “halfassed”.
            Anyone that knew Yogscast should have expected the project to be a flop, more so when an unknown and newly established studio was supposed to be doing all the development and Yogscast themselves probably threw in a whole load of crap features just for the fun of it without any consideration towards the chances that the game would actually ever get finished.

    • Chalky says:

      It might have seemed obvious to many of us but there’s no need to be an asshole. There are good things coming out of kickstarter and people simply aren’t really used to making judgements about how realistic software development timescales and budgets are.

      I write software and people who aren’t familiar with it just don’t have a clue and will either believe anything you say or start reeling off ludicrous and impossible features like it’s just pushing a button. As someone who’s familiar with software, it’s easy to look at something like that and think “wow, it’s probably cheaper to burn your money”. To others, it’s all magic, so who says half a million can’t make it happen?

      • xfstef says:

        I also write software (games) and as it stands I’m on the verge of starting an Indiegogo campaign myself. So maybe now my anger will be better understood since I have no big “name” to back up my project although I have been working on it for quite some time now and I’m passionate about becoming a serious game developer.

        But it won’t matter how many hours I’ve already put into my project or how many will follow, since I don’t have a famous youtube alterego that makes fart jokes and plays minecraft all day long, so that people trust me enough to fund my project.

        Was I acting like an asshole, maybe, yes, but I’m a frustrated asshole in case that will help anyone better understand my point of view.

        • Chalky says:

          I feel for you, it must really suck to see money like this getting flushed away like this when your own project struggles with no attention. What’s worse is that this sort of thing will make it harder for all indie developers to get funding and it’s only going to get worse, the more kickstarters go belly up the more jaded potential gamers will get about the whole concept.

          But still, it’s not the fault of the backers for not understanding what they were funding, it’s really the fault of the developers for writing checks their skills couldn’t cash. It’s easy to talk yourself up, but understanding your limits is the most important aspect of any project. The Yogscast were clearly naive here and to be honest they probably should have known better, but they showed some backbone by letting this fail now rather than taking pre-orders like the developer wanted in order to raise funds for something they didn’t think was up to scratch. I can respect them for that, it’s clearly a horrible situation to get into.

          Good luck with your game development, I hope you get the chance to make something great. :)

        • clockworkaugment says:

          Xstef, if its true you are making your own game, i have some advice for you which just might save you from destroying yourself in the future.

          Drop that attitude like a red hot coal.

          It will not be doing you any favors. That first post of yours was especially bad. Jealous, insulting, condescending, misanthropic and arrogant. Yes, i saw this coming too from a mile away. Doesnt mean i decide i have to insult the yogscast, their fans and anyone with a bit of charity for a possible game project.

          Those Youtube quote-celebrities-unquote (as if you are implying that they are somehow less deserving of their status than other celebrities and look at me being the person to judge how someone should get to live their lives and what you should choose to enjoy viewing) are a major force in todays videogames. Them finding your game and finding it fun could make your day, and more accurately your early retirement. Because all it takes in the world is spreading the word, and they can. On the other hand, if you take petty snipes at them or people like them you might find they and their fans a lot less interested in buying your work. I know people who purposefully ignored Fez because the creator was an especially vitriolic individual for example.- and posts like that which are full of petty hate and jealousy are just things waiting to be dug up by journalists when they are writing an article on you.

          Now more than ever, success is based on connections and the relationship you have with your fans. Harrison Ford famously got big in acting because he happened to be working as a carpenter putting together a cabinet for George Lucas, and dozens of indie developers with unheard of games have woken up one morning to discover some lets player or another decided they wanted to spend their time telling their fans why they really liked New-Obscure-Indie-Game. If you are suddenly outraged that people can get things because of who they know i advise you to douse it by reading a brief history of the entire human race forever ever – because it has been and always will be the case.

          On the other hand, posting or twittering or whatever that you think so-and-so are morons for whatever reason? Thats gonna have people look at you and think ‘well, why should i support this guys game? It may be exactly what i want, but he’s clearly a massive asshole’.

          TL;DR = Choosing to insult the exact kind of people who would be most interested in helping you succeed has never been considered a survival tactic.

          • xfstef says:

            The survival tactics that you are talking about are partially true and applicable maybe to the scenario I am currently finding myself in, yes, but let’s not forget that the Yogscast are not the only youtube gaming and let’s plays channel out there. In fact there are thousands of such channels and me bowing forcefully down before them and playing it safe with them may or most likely may not give a great sales boost for my future products. Let’s be honest, they mostly play minecraft and zombie games, because those are their main cash cows.

            I dare think like this because nowadays the chances that you get discovered by a huge youtube channel are pretty low if your game isn’t either brilliantly funny or very well implemented and backed already by a decent fan community. Youtube isn’t just free advertising for indie developers as you portray it to be. For most decent and famous youtubers it’s a job. It pays their bills, it puts food on their tables, or at least they keep working at it hoping that someday it will.

            With that in mind I think that the balance of opportunity and respect between youtubers and indie developers is doing pretty well, although recent developments (like paid reviews and let’s plays) are starting to show the world that it’s all about the money and that indies can and will still get shafted even by a guy who although only affords to work in his underwear from his home office, still is easily bought with flights, hotels, game codes, etc, by a big gaming industry company that spams the internet full of marketing until they sell enough for their shareholders to allow them a chance at another project.

            TL:DR = Jealousy is usually used to describe the feeling of resentment towards a person who has more success than the one who is jealous. In this case, you accusing me of being jealous is pretty pointless since the Yogscast failed miserably at making a computer game, while I haven’t yet even tried.

          • clockworkaugment says:

            > But it won’t matter how many hours I’ve already put into my project or how many will follow, since I don’t have a famous youtube alterego that makes fart jokes and plays minecraft all day long

            That, and perhaps a link to whatever the kind people at the Oxford Dictionary have as their ‘definition of envy’ page is all i really need to say about that. But though you were wrong about the idea of the yogscast making a videogame – they werent – you were very much right on one account. No, you have yet to even begin failing at making your videogame. It would be a shame if it were to come about due to no faults with your game, but because of a prickly personality and a general resentment of others in the strange group of social circles that constitute videogaming.

            At any right, i was not referring exclusively to the yogscast, and certainly i was not suggesting anyone do any bowing. I merely recommend that you adopt in your Public Relations policy the idea of not insulting public figures, especially when they have fans who might otherwise be your fans. Even if you never expect them to review your game. Because that makes for bad PR and reputation is becoming everything in this new world of kickstarters, campaigns and social media. Adopt it right above the other policy that states that declaring large swathes of people you dont know – or even that you do know – as morons is probably not a great idea, because morons might still buy games.

            Although i nevertheless point out the debatably slim odds that your game is picked up by lets players become undebatably slimmer when you needlessly deliver insults upon some of them.

          • xfstef says:

            “…but because of a prickly personality and a general resentment of others in the strange group of social circles that constitute videogaming.”

            Here’s where I keep having a problem with the way you argument your responses. You keep assuming that I am in general this type of person. There seems to be no way of getting an opinion out nowadays without someone putting a huge target mark on you and branding you as the devil, the evil one, he who hates all, drinks the tears of orphans and such.

            I am most definitely not that which you think I am and I’d appreciate it if people would stick to the discussion at hand, the discussion in which I challenge the mental prowess of people who donated a lot of money to a project that had obviously very low chances of getting done, because nobody in that whole team was actually either experimented enough or serious enough to see it done.

            My opinion of this one instance / story does not make me the PR nightmare that you’re trying to depict me as, and you also keep forgetting that the internet isn’t one big happy family. I’m not fighting alone against you all, on the contrary I think that most people that commented here are either in agreement with me or share some common points with view of the situation.

            We all love crowdfunding and this is a clear example of why and how crowdfunding can fail. People who don’t know what they’re getting into give up their money and people that don’t know how to get things done abuse the first group. It’s as simple as that. I can understand trying and failing for 50k $ or 100k $, but for 500k $ (which was already more than double of what they initially thought would be enough), failing and having nothing to show for it (no alpha, nothing) is borderline criminal, as in should be punishable by law.

            Regarding my apparent envy for their arguably unfair advantage, I can only say that people need to be a lot more careful when it comes to trusting personalities. Let me put it this way. We all love Jackie Chan and we’ve seen his movies. We trust him to be a kick ass fighting movie actor, but if we would need someone to fix our plumbing we would most likely not trust Jackie with it, although he would offer to do it. The same about the Yogscast. Them being (apparently) funny while playing games does not and probably will not make them game designers.

  15. Advanced Assault Hippo says:

    I’ve never backed a kickstarter and never will. At least not until such time the whole system changes in a fundamental way.

    Personally, the whole concept is laughable and a great mystery to me. But maybe I’m too long in the tooth these days.

    • Shooop says:

      Maybe you’re better educated than the thousands of fools throwing their money into it.

      You’re not investing in anything when you Kickstart, you’re basically giving money away. Kickstarter itself even bans people from making investments:

      Creators cannot offer equity or financial incentives (ownership, share of profits, repayment/loans, cash-value equivalents, etc).

      • Hmm-Hmm. says:

        I will admit kickstarters are very idealistic things. You put in some money to give some people the opportunity to make something happen. If you don’t, it might not get funded and attempted at all. But if you do, well, it just might work out and you have helped in that process.

        That’s why I don’t see them as pre-orders (which I really dislike) or early access (which are generally a bad idea). Pre-orders and early access are for putting money into a game which is coming out anyway (if it’s any good).

      • InternetBatman says:

        I bet the backers of Divinity Original Sin and Shadowrun Returns are feeling pain right now. Those poor foolish fools.

        • njursten says:

          Actually I kind of regret backing Shadowrun Returns. I didn’t very much like it. A foolish preorder! :(

    • Premium User Badge xao says:

      And in shocking news, some of us like giving money away to people who are trying to make products we want. We’ll just have to mourn our dearth of education with a few rounds of Zombicide.

      I’ve backed a number of Kickstarters. A few have flamed out, most have delivered, and many have delivered spectacularly. What can I say? I guess I just like to live on the edge. Sometimes I even pay money to see movies that I HAVEN’T SEEN BEFORE. I’m a rebel like that.

  16. Simes says:

    “our likenesses”?

    The “Commander Riker” and “Dwarf” skins they use? Seriously?

  17. Heliocentric says:

    Something something, fools, money, parted, something something.

  18. zachforrest says:

    I’m delighted to see these talentless shits have betrayed and disappointed their halfwit fans. Delighted.

  19. Freud says:

    It’s healthy for Kickstarter as a market place for investment in game development that some projects fail. Perhaps that will lead to smarter decisions when it comes to what is a realistic project and what isn’t.

    Then again, that Richard Nixon just got the $35k he asked for (when asking for $900k fails…). Perhaps people just have too much money and too little sense.

  20. Frank says:

    Penny Arcade have always been sketchy flakes, but Yogscast is so clearly run by committed slimeballs that this is not surprising at all.

  21. DrManhatten says:

    Wow I was toying to back Confederate express since it had a rather unique setting glad I didn’t do in the end. This will definitely put even a further downer on the already clearly existing kickstarter fatigue.

  22. DanceComm says:

    There is a post on the KS for CE that I feel explains a lot of the confusion, of course I feel like the angriest people are the ones who somehow forgot this side project was being done for a butt load of cash for CE. Also surely this isn’t the first time a indie dev overshot the est time is it? Call it poor or lazy planning sure but these are the risks we take in helping out a indie dev and I for one can wait a year or two for something promising. I’m pretty shocked as how misinformed RPS was in this case and just went on throwing speculation but mistakes happen and I forgive you.

    “Okay, I think we need a summary in here, because it looks like a lot of people have no idea what’s actually going on, which, you know, happens when it’s been over half a year since we backed something. If you feel confused by any of this, I hope something in here helps:
    Timeline
    October: Kickstarter begins.
    November: Kickstarter ends successfully.
    December: Maksym announces that just before the kickstarter ended, a venture capital group has offered to provide funding to allow them to meet all of Confederate Express’ stretch goals, if they set Confederate Express on the back burner and finish a game that’s currently in production (expected to take 2-3 months). At the time, all the backers who commented were thrilled at having a much better game in return for a longer wait.
    February: Maksym updates to show progress made on the engine for Confederate Express and the game that turned out to be Knuckle Club. Announces game is expected to end in April.
    Today: Maksym updates to announce that they’re running a Kickstarter for Knuckle Club, and adds that backers of Confederate Express will get the game for free.
    FAQ:
    What’s going on with this other game?
    Knuckle Club is the game that they’ve been working on for a venture capital group. See above or update #7 for a refresher.
    Why did you spend our money on this other game, or why are you making this game first instead of the one I backed?
    The money from this Kickstarter has supposedly not been touched, and is waiting until they can work on Confederate Express. All the money that went into Knuckle Club was from a venture capital group that already had the game in progress.
    Why have I never heard of Kilobite?
    Kilobite has been the name of the company from the start, as can be seen if you check out Maksym’s profile.
    Why are you running a Kickstarter for that other game?
    Good question! This is one I’d like to hear an answer to, as well. We’re purely in guesswork territory now, but I’d suggest it was the venture capital group’s idea, since they’re the ones in charge of the money for that game.
    How dare you ask us for money for this other game?
    Well, they didn’t ask us for money for this other game, and in fact they’re offering us the game for free.
    Why hasn’t there been any progress on Confederate Express, or how far along is ConEx?
    *points above to the thing where they agreed to make that other game first for a chunk of money they could use to make ConEx even better.*
    Not so good reasons to be upset:
    Kilobite working on Knuckle Club before Confederate Express: They told us about that last year, it’s a bit late to get mad.
    Kilobite asking for your money on another Kickstarter: They’re expressly not asking for our money, and are giving us the game (plus whatever else comes with a tier of about the same level as we pledged on this project).
    Better reasons to be upset:
    Confederate Express being pushed so far back: While Kickstarter delays are common and pretty much expected at this point, Knuckle Club’s development has taken far longer than previously suggested.
    Knuckle Club having a Kickstarter: Though I’d hold the venture capitalist group responsible instead of holding it against Kilobite.
    Okay, I think that should take care of most of the confusion/misinformation I’ve seen. I hope I’ve set some minds at ease, or at least helped people be upset for legitimate reasons.”

    • WhiteLando says:

      Poor and lazy planning is one thing, not getting into actual development of the project, which they earned nearly than four times their asking amount for, until a full year after the Kickstarter closed is extreme incompetence. So far, all backers have received is short, sporadic updates and the only evidence the game exists in any form is the pitch video and a handful of gifs. Also, don’t simply overlook what you pasted there, the whole reason they got into bed with third-party investors was to receive funding for their unmet stretch goals, but now they need $25k to finish that side project? Why should anyone believe this series of repeated delays will have been worth it now? I think it’s admirable as heck you want to take up sword and shield to defend those who aren’t even willing to address the completely understandable concerns of their backers themselves, other than to post a short comment on the Knuckle Club Kickstarter comment page claiming they are victims of a witch hunt, but if you’re willing to take them at their word on anything at this point then I have an exciting business opportunity for you in the form of a bridge I have for sale.

  23. Ajmist says:

    Kickstarter’s pass the risk of failer onto the consumer but keep all profits with the company sadly people line up to give them cash. Yet bizarrely complain about the banks doing the same thing

    There is only one situation in which the consumer benefits from kickstarter and that is when no one else is producing a similar product and all other avenues of funding have failed. The Yogscast kickstarter shouldn’t have been funded it was a generic minecraft clone of which a large number are in production and the Yogscast could easily have obtained the funding for it via traditional funding methods.

    Be a smart consumer don’t kickstart games in that could be funded by the rich people profiting from the game and don’t fund games that are in well serviced or of the moment genres.

  24. derbefrier says:

    Theres a lot say but its really no surprise. This was inevitable. Kickstarter is by its nature, risky. Crowdfunding any game is risky. I said the other day i have spent quite a bit of money on Star Citizen and while i am pretty confident in the project at the moment there is always that thought in the back of my head it could fail. Star Citizen and Path of exile are the only games I have ever helped fund fund. PoE turned out pretty much how I expected and I was happy with it. I have put 100s of hours into that game. Star Citizen is well on its way though a bit behind schedule(or a lot depending on your point of view) but I already enjoy Arena Commander though its not even close to what you would call “working” at the moment the foundation is there though, so it can only go up from here.

  25. ZombieJ says:

    The moral of the story? Only back Kickstarters that are featured on RPS! ;)
    I hear KS now has some kind of flexible funding thing? Sounds like they support scammers in some ways. Really it’s just a serviceable way to get your idea out there. I wait for it projects to get green-lit on steam, and even then it can be pretty risky.

    • Leucine says:

      Confederate Express was featured on RPS. It’s how I heard about it. I’d like to believe there isn’t anything untoward in the behaviour of the devs so I’ll wait and see what happens but it is irksome that the original suggestion that they’d be helping out on this project for the venture capitalists for a “couple of months” (or something to that effect, I believe it was near finished) has been completely thrown out the window.

      Delays are to be expected, yes but it’s irksome (and a little worrying) that so much time is being given over to an entirely different project.

  26. fish99 says:

    I remember watching the pitch video for Yogventures and thinking it looked like a cash grab and exploitative of their fantatical young fanbase. I also thought the game itself looked dreadful and the impression I got was that the people behind it didn’t know what they were doing. That was the day I unsubbed from the yogs. Sad to be proven right.

  27. namad says:

    @rps STOP saying this. kickstarter’s fine print absolutely states that you are legally responsible for providing all rewards. Game’s that didn’t exist were never meant to be rewards. Tshirts and mugs and such were. It isn’t just a moral obligation. It is a legal obligation. Also lewis is rich enough that he has the money to lose a lawsuit and pay out.

  28. stupid_mcgee says:

    Do the Yogcast guys really think they have zero obligations? Those chucklefucks might want to read the terms again.

    “Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.”

    “Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.”

    They are contractually obliged, according to agreed upon terms by Kickstarter, to refund if they do not fulfill. Failure to do so leaves them liable via civil lawsuit for breach of contract.

    So, yes, they are under obligations. Very much so.

  29. Winged Nazgul says:

    Breaking news on Confederate Express:

    http://www.polygon.com/2014/7/24/5933151/notorious-airbnb-squatter-may-be-the-dev-behind-two-flailing

    It’s not looking good.