A criticism of Space Marine and game criticism

[Kollega]

Yes, you read the title right: a criticism of Space Marine, and of game criticism at once. But not by me, no. By the authors of this webcomic over at the Escapist (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/9123-Critical-Miss-Space-Marine). Go and read it before posting

Read it? Good. Now tell me, and be honest: how many of you usually complain about brown-and-grey space marine shooters for being too samey and boring, yet bought the game the title of which actually is "Space Marine"? And on the contrary, how many of you have given it a pass because of it's "manly man shooting space-orcs with future-guns" aesthetic and plot even if you generally like third-person shooters?

I understand that the main object of RPS readership's hate and derision - the Call of Duty series - is about actual marines rather than space marines and thus even more boring, but as far as i know, generic space marines aren't liked here that much either. So please, let's discuss this. Is it significant in any way that some people are willing to criticise games for their space-marine-ness and insist that all space marines are boring and uninspired, but will waive these criticisms as soon as space marines they actually like come along?

Further yet, the commentary for the comic poses another criticism, and i think it's a fair one: we should not be allowed to treat basic game design elements like regenerating health or cover systems like they are anathema to good design. These systems are just tools: sure, they might bore us today when there are a lot of them on the market, but in the times of old-school shooters a Gears-style game would be treated like a pinnacle of innovation, on par with how, say, Plain Sight (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/tag/plain-sight/) looks to us today. Similarly, regenerating health seems to work fine when it's actually a shield that protects your other, actual and non-regenerating health. And so on. Wanting cover systems, health regen, limited weapon storage, and so on to be gone forever is irrational: sure, they make for a more "gritty and down-to-earth" sort of game, and there are too much of these right now - but sometimes, a gritty and down-to-earth game is exactly what you need, as long as it's done well.

So, let's discuss this all. And honestly... i do not know how we're going to keep two separate discussions in the same thread working, but let's try anyway.

[Nalano]

Read it? Good. Now tell me, and be honest: how many of you usually complain about brown-and-grey space marine shooters for being too samey and boring, yet bought the game the title of which actually is "Space Marine"?

Because generic look-a-likes tend to rip liberally off of a very specific number of sources, and it's better just to go to the source. Fans squee for 40k while hating on Gears of War or Army of Two for the same reason WoW outlasted all the "like WoW but..." clones. We don't want them to just file the serial numbers off (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SerialNumbersFiledOff).

Also, WH40k is a universe whose very purpose is to sell painted figurines. It's still controlled by the folks who originally did, and is already in so many genres over a variety of platforms that having one shift in direction will not pigeonhole or otherwise limit the franchise as a whole.

That's quite different from a franchise that was invented on the computer as a genre staple, and is now taking its first steps out of that niche a decade later in a completely different genre by a completely different team.

[Kollega]

Because generic look-a-likes tend to rip liberally off of a very specific number of sources, and it's better just to go to the source. Fans squee for 40k while hating on Gears of War or Army of Two for the same reason WoW outlasted all the "like WoW but..." clones. We don't want them to just file the serial numbers off (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SerialNumbersFiledOff).

Well, okay. So it's the Grandfather Clause (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrandfatherClause) then. Thought so. And i figured that if you can link to TV Tropes without it being strictly neccesary, so can i.

I have to say, i doubt i'll get another type of answer to that, and it's not that important anyway. Do you think i should just delete the question and focus on the "game criticism" part instead?


That's quite different from a franchise that was invented on the computer as a genre staple, and is now taking its first steps out of that niche a decade later in a completely different genre by a completely different team.

Hey hey hey, i didn't say nothin' about X-Com or Syndicate! Nothin', i tell!

Seriously. I didn't have them in mind when i wrote this.

[tengblad]

Criticizing a game and not liking it are two different things. The crux of the argument here seems to be that if you're a person who complains about modern shooters being too gray and brown and having the same kind of overused mechanics (such as regenerating health or quick time events) you're not allowed to enjoy or buy that kind of game. I think that's wrong. You CAN enjoy and consume something despite knowing and/or feeling that it has faults.

I haven't really read all the reviews or pursued all the forum threads about Space Marine, but from what I've been able to gather no one is actually healing it a perfect, fantastic game. Rather, most people seem to be in agreement that it is a good game but a flawed one. And that those flaws are repetition and samey environments, mainly.

I will fully admit to being one of those people who can complain about generic, grey-and-brown games. Yet I still bought, and enjoyed Space Marine. Because it's god damn fantastic to wade into a horde of Orks with chainsword swinging -- and I'm not even a WH40K fan. Yet I still criticize the game for being repetitive both in gameplay and environments -- and I do this because I want to game to be better. I do it because I don't enjoy those elements of it and would like them to be improved for the inevitable sequel.

So what I'm trying to say, I guess, is that people are fully allowed to have positive feelings toward a game despite berating elements of it. Sort of like a parent being upset at their child slacking off in school -- it's criticism out of desire for improvement.

As for people who, as a blanket statement say that *all* space marine games are boring and then go out and buy them anyway? That's just internet hyperbole at work. Sort of how all game companies would've gone under ages ago, if all the people who threaten with boycotts whenever a developer or publisher do something they perceive as a personal insult, actually went through with it.

[Giaddon]

RE: Space marines v. Space Marine

Disclaimer: I don't have the game and have no interest in it.

"Space marine" is a label used for generic action heroes, not military people in space. When people complain about space marines, they aren't complaining about that specifically, but rather about how boring generic characters/settings are.

Take Mass Effect for example, where you are literally a space marine. Few complain, because the world is extremely well-developed, and the characters are strong and distinct. You're not a space marine, you're XXX Shepherd.

Similarly, the world of WHMR40K is developed and interesting. You're not playing a generic action hero, but rather a very specific, and frankly sinister, superhuman fascistic soldier that's part of a mindbogglingly abusive empire that, for all its horror, is the reason the human race hasn't been destroyed.

Lore matters.

[Kollega]

I will fully admit to being one of those people who can complain about generic, grey-and-brown games. Yet I still bought, and enjoyed Space Marine. Because it's god damn fantastic to wade into a horde of Orks with chainsword swinging -- and I'm not even a WH40K fan. Yet I still criticize the game for being repetitive both in gameplay and environments -- and I do this because I want to game to be better. I do it because I don't enjoy those elements of it and would like them to be improved for the inevitable sequel.

So what I'm trying to say, I guess, is that people are fully allowed to have positive feelings toward a game despite berating elements of it. Sort of like a parent being upset at their child slacking off in school -- it's criticism out of desire for improvement.

So your point is that you can buy and even enjoy space marine shooters, but still criticize them for their sameyness because you want them to do better? That's a fair point, but the hyperbole-ish-ness of the Angry Internet Men (which you have also so annoyingly tackled, making me clearly lose the argument - drat and double drat!) leads to them implying that they don't want any space marine games at all... then running out and buying them anyway because it's their favourite space marine game.

[Drinking with Skeletons]

I agree with the comic writer. The regenerating health issue in particular is an interesting case, in that it raises questions about how we should approach the core gameplay of a title. Many people seem to see regenerating health as being a drain on the challenge of a game. For me, it is a way to remove an unnecessary burden from the player. Except for the rare game which makes actual injuries--broken legs, for example--a core part of the experience, health bars are little more than an arbitrary resource to manage. Let health regenerate between fights and focus on making the encounters interesting in their own right rather than make me be an HP accountant. If a game can't be challenging or interesting without managing your health, then maybe there are bigger problems in play.

[Jorum]

I agree with above, context matters.
In things like GOW there isn't any context and it just seems puerile uber-macho and ridiculous.
WH40K is in many of it's own ways ridiculous, but the context makes a difference. A Space Marine is a quite a nuanced and complex thing.
Although admittedly Ultramarines are the most boring and "goody" version possible. A game that explored some of the Dark Angels or Blood Angels lore would be much more interesting.

[tengblad]

So your point is that you can buy and even enjoy space marine shooters, but still criticize them for their sameyness because you want them to do better? That's a fair point, but the hyperbole-ish-ness of the Angry Internet Men (which you have also so annoyingly tackled, making me clearly lose the argument - drat and double drat!) leads to them implying that they don't want any space marine games at all... then running out and buying them anyway because it's their favourite space marine game.

Yes, that's my point entirely. Disliking parts or elements of a game or genre does not mean you should not be allowed to enjoy games of that particular kind. The problem with that argument, of course, is that from a developer or publisher's point of view those games sell well and they might therefor believe that those kind of experiences are exactly what gamers want. And publishers in particular, as we all well known, are not creatures that are happy to embrace change once they've found a formula that seems to stick. These days I think that enough people inside the games industry follow Twitter and other social media enough to still get an accurate picture of what the players want. Bioware's recent attempts at smothering the fan rage-fuelled flames of the Dragon Age 2 drama being one example.

[Nalano]

Hey hey hey, i didn't say nothin' about X-Com or Syndicate! Nothin', i tell!

Seriously. I didn't have them in mind when i wrote this.

Well, you may not have, but the webcomic artist certainly had it in mind.

Regardless, it's like base propaganda or idiot advertising: We keep seeing it because it works. We like the image of the space marine boldly going into the unknown and doing battle with eldritch horrors while looking like he's still in Vietnam 'cept with a couple high-tech doohickeys attached. This is why we have Doom and Quake and Aliens and Predator and Starship Troopers and Warhammer 40k and Halo and Starcraft and many, many others.

That each iteration of the feed may not necessarily win us over entirely doesn't diminish our (sometimes unspoken) love of the genre overall. You could say that our deep resentment of specific examples stems mainly from the potential we see in our mind's eye.

[Flint]

In an amusing twist, I've always enjoyed the whole space marine setting in gaming (probably because I love scifi settings in gaming and SPACE MARINEZ always means it's going to be futuristic) but the WH40k marines have always left me completely cold.

[Nalano]

In an amusing twist, I've always enjoyed the whole space marine setting in gaming (probably because I love scifi settings in gaming and SPACE MARINEZ always means it's going to be futuristic) but the WH40k marines have always left me completely cold.

But that's why we have the Imperial Guard to lorehump.

[Kadayi]

I think the big point about the turn based criticisms is really to do with existing PC franchises (X-Com, Syndicate) with turn based combat being re-imagined in the 3PS/FPS mould rather than turn based war games per se. Not being a huge WH40K guy I'm not aware that there's a legacy of turn based PC games relating to the franchise (IIRC the dawn of war stuff is all RTS?).

[deano2099]

The problem is when developers lean too much on a generic trope like space marines. WH40K is space marine done well, and thing with that license is that even if you don't explicitly put much backstory in the game, you're designing it to be congruent with a whole universe of backstory that gives it something more. So the characters feel a little developed.

If you just take random space marines in your own fiction, we know enough that they're heavily armoured walking killing machines, but we don't know what other backstory elements you've lifted. Does it have the whole religious thing? How do they become marines? And so on.

Halo may or may not be to your taste but it's another game featuring a space marine but it works because it's done well. It sets up its own world and story.

[Nalano]

I think the big point about the turn based criticisms is really to do with existing PC franchises (X-Com, Syndicate) with turn based combat being re-imagined in the 3PS/FPS mould rather than turn based war games per se. Not being a huge WH40K guy I'm not aware that there's a legacy of turn based PC games relating to the franchise (IIRC the dawn of war stuff is all RTS?).

I think the webcomic artist was attempting to conflate tabletop games with tactical PC games.

(inb4 Wizardry)

[deano2099]

I think the big point about the turn based criticisms is really to do with existing PC franchises (X-Com, Syndicate) with turn based combat being re-imagined in the 3PS/FPS mould rather than turn based war games per se. Not being a huge WH40K guy I'm not aware that there's a legacy of turn based PC games relating to the franchise (IIRC the dawn of war stuff is all RTS?).

Also in this case, yes it's fine that Relic are making Space Marine and turning an RTS in to an FPS as we know they're working on Dawn of War 3 as well. Had EA announced Syndicate as a top-down RTS then announced they were also developing an FPS for the same property no-one would really mind.

[Kollega]

Well, you may not have, but the webcomic artist certainly had it in mind.

Oh, wait, yes they did. Sorry, i totally ignored that. My bad.


That each iteration of the feed may not necessarily win us over entirely doesn't diminish our (sometimes unspoken) love of the genre overall. You could say that our deep resentment of specific examples stems mainly from the potential we see in our mind's eye.

Well, i never liked the "space marine" genre as-defined-by-Aliens. Retrofuture like steam- or dieselpunk, or actual future with brain uploading and nanoweapons, now that's something more interesting!

[Kadayi]

I think the webcomic artist was attempting to conflate tabletop games with tactical PC games.

Yeah but the point is, that's not what people were getting irate about with X-Com or Syndicate. I'm not agreeing with the OP. Just pointing out the differential between to the two states.


Also in this case, yes it's fine that Relic are making Space Marine and turning an RTS in to an FPS as we know they're working on Dawn of War 3 as well. Had EA announced Syndicate as a top-down RTS then announced they were also developing an FPS for the same property no-one would really mind.

TBH the only thing people mind is the use of the names. 4 person co-op cyberpunk action game? Sign me up!! Syndicate? Die in a fire!!

[Nalano]

Well, i never liked the "space marine" genre as-defined-by-Aliens. Retrofuture like steam- or dieselpunk, or actual future with brain uploading and nanoweapons, now that's something more interesting!

I never liked the Might & Magic genre of games, which is exactly why I never raged against them. As they say, the opposite of love isn't hate; it's indifference.


TBH the only thing people mind is the use of the names. 4 person co-op cyberpunk action game? Sign me up!! Syndicate? Die in a fire!!

You wanna see a forum blow up?

Calvin and Hobbes: The animated series.

[Kadayi]

Calvin and Hobbes: The animated series.

Would Bill Murray be Hobbes though? Or does him being Garfield preclude him?

[Kollega]

I never liked the Might & Magic genre of games, which is exactly why I never raged against them. As they say, the opposite of love isn't hate; it's indifference.

And that's what i am towards the space marine genre: iddifferent. I never claimed to hate the sci-fi shooter genre... just Warhammer :P (And even that one i see as a missed opportunity for black comedy and ultraviolent fun.)

[Nalano]

(And even that one i see as a missed opportunity for black comedy and ultraviolent fun.)

But that's what Orks are: Black comedy and ultraviolent fun!

[Tei]

Theres nothing generic in Space Marines. Contrary to the generic space marines of your generic space fantasy. The Space Marines of Warhammer 40.000 do fun things like live in ships that look like huge religious gothic buildings, are genetically engineered to be gigantic monsters with multiple organs to survive wars, and so on... really, are interesting and are full of flavour.

[GothicEmperor]

Even the stereotypically bland Ultramarines have their rigid adherence to the Codex Astartes, which is directly referenced in Space Marine on several occasions. Also, they're dressed in giant blue and gold armour. They're not half as bland as Private Built-as-a-Fridge McBrown-Uniform.

[Smashbox]

Theres nothing generic in Space Marines.

I think the reason people see generic-ness in Warhammer is because they are so often imitated, and failed to capitalize initially on their ideas in computer games.
Like:
Seinfeld Is Unfunny (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeinfeldIsUnfunny)

[Kollega]

But that's what Orks are: Black comedy and ultraviolent fun!

And i wish entire world of 40k was like that, not just the Orks. Case in point: Angry Marines. Of course it'd be a little narrower in scope, but damn if it wouldn't be totally fun to read/watch/play!

[Nalano]

And i wish entire world of 40k was like that, not just the Orks. Case in point: Angry Marines. Of course it'd be a little narrower in scope, but damn if it wouldn't be totally fun to read/watch/play!

I always liked Noise Marines, myself. And Nurgle is always fun, 'cuz he loves you!


Even the stereotypically bland Ultramarines have their rigid adherence to the Codex Astartes, which is directly referenced in Space Marine on several occasions. Also, they're dressed in giant blue and gold armour. They're not half as bland as Private Built-as-a-Fridge McBrown-Uniform.

I still like the plain-as-day parable that the SM's biggest enemy, despite being in a grimdark universe with all manner of galaxy-eating monsters, are the SMs.

[Smashbox]

I still like the plain-as-day parable that the SM's biggest enemy, despite being in a grimdark universe with all manner of galaxy-eating monsters, are the SMs.


http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1886495646640

[Berzee]

Kollega, you are becoming more subtle.
*nods approvingly, and continues to observe*

[GothicEmperor]

I always liked Noise Marines, myself. And Nurgle is always fun, 'cuz he loves you!

Nothing beats the Thousand Sons. Rubric Marines are like zombies but actually threatening, dangerous and very hard to kill. Plus they've got sorcerers literally everywhere.

[Drake Sigar]

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QhbQ3ZaUH6k" allowfullscreen="" width="560" frameborder="0" height="315"></iframe>

[Kollega]

Kollega, you are becoming more subtle.
*nods approvingly, and continues to observe*

That is because, as i've said, those are not my arguments.
:P


You're right. But most of the time, those mechanics are just abused.

Why did you edit your post to just video? With some words, it seemed to make it's point better - even if that quote was huge.

And i have to say yes, you're right - but again, if Plain-Sight-esque combat based on leaps, dashes, and planetary gravity would be the order of the day, we would see a lot of cheap rip-offs of that instead. I think we shouldn't blame "cover systems", "regenerating health" or "limited weapon selection" - but we should blame "stiff and unesponsive cover systems of game X", "badly-paced regenerating health of game Y", or "limited weapon selection that leaves us unprepared for the enemy hordes in game Z".

[Land Squid]

how many of you usually complain about brown-and-grey space marine shooters for being too samey and boring, yet bought the game the title of which actually is "Space Marine"?

I've only played the demo, but isn't space marine quite colourful? The marines are bright blue, the orks are green, there's red blood everywhere. Brown-and-grey-and-blue-and-green-and-red shooter, surely?

Also, I don't think it's significant that someone will say they don't like Call of Duty on a forum and someone else will say they like Space Marine. Unless you're talking about specific people.

[Drake Sigar]

Why did you edit your post to just video? With some words, it seemed to make it's point better - even if that quote was huge.
Because it made me seem like less of a dick, and I have my self-imagined dickish reputation to uphold.

[Mistabashi]

<video tabindex="0">

My mind is literally blown. Well done games industry, well done.</video> -video-

[Althea]

Also in this case, yes it's fine that Relic are making Space Marine and turning an RTS in to an FPS as we know they're working on Dawn of War 3 as well.
Did you just refer to Space Marine as an FPS?

I want to address the Space Marine/Gears of War thing. From what I played of Space Marine's demo, it's a multi-style combat system with one playable character and an art style that fits with the source material. Gears of War is a stupidly dark cover-based third person shooter with weak melée mechanics. They're different things. To criticise Space Marine for its art style is ridiculous as it, and its universe, had that stylistic element long before many of the games we play today even came out. It'd be like criticising the next Dungeons & Dragons game for having Elves with pointy ears and Dwarves with beards - It's a trademark of that setting.

I don't mind brown-coloured games. I have more problems with offensively coloured games, such as Deus Orange: Orange Revolution and Mass Orange 2/3. I like my eyes as they are, I don't need them to bleed with the amount of bright orange the developers chose for those games.

[Nalano]

Deus Orange: Orange Revolution and Mass Orange 2/3

Nonsense. If anything, it was Mass Blue 2: The Bluening.

[vinraith]

Nonsense. If anything, it was Mass Blue 2: The Bluening.

Yeah, that confused me as well. I don't recall there being much, if any, orange filtering in ME2, but there was certainly a lot of blue.

[Tikey]

Maybe he's referring to the collector parts.

[Drake Sigar]

Nonsense. If anything, it was Mass Blue 2: The Bluening.
If there’s a sci-fi game or movie that doesn’t use copious amounts of blue or green, I haven’t heard of it.

[Rii]

"Space marine" is a label used for generic action heroes, not military people in space. When people complain about space marines, they aren't complaining about that specifically, but rather about how boring generic characters/settings are.

In that case I would suggest finding a different term for what you're describing.

[Smashbox]

How about:

Action genre hero guy
(http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ActionGenreHeroGuy)

[Nalano]

How about:

Action genre hero guy
(http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ActionGenreHeroGuy)

Oh, TVTropes, where would we be without you?

[Berzee]

That is because, as i've said, those are not my arguments.
:P


lol, well said :D

[deano2099]

Did you just refer to Space Marine as an FPS?

Yes, because there's very little difference in gameplay between third-person cover-based shooters and FPSs so I lump them in one place in my brain (the "not interested" place). I don't think it distracted from my point though.

[Nalano]

Yes, because there's very little difference in gameplay between third-person cover-based shooters and FPSs so I lump them in one place in my brain (the "not interested" place). I don't think it distracted from my point though.

Space Marine isn't a third-person cover-based shooter. Space Marine is a beat-'em-up.

[Giaddon]

In that case I would suggest finding a different term for what you're describing.

Why? It's such a nice video game term (I assume it comes from Doom).

[Kollega]

space marine isn't a third-person cover-based shooter. Space marine is a beat-'em-up.

The Emprah has been kidnapped by cultists. Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the Emprah?!


How about:

Action genre hero guy
(http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ActionGenreHeroGuy)

And here, ladies and gentlemen, is another thing that we should really wail and rail against. Why does every action hero need to look and behave like John McClane, of all people? I can recall at least two protagonist archetypes from the older and indie games that are rather memorable: shorties in vividly-coloured impressionist worlds (Braid, Bastion) and a whole bunch of anthropomorphic fauna, some of it wielding badass space guns (any platform game from the late 1990s and early 2000s). Sure, the latter had the days when they overfilled the market - but i'd still take them rather than white Anglo-Saxon protestants with short brown hair wielding downsized weaponry and trying to rescue their loved ones from some nebulous threat.

[Althea]

Yes, because there's very little difference in gameplay between third-person cover-based shooters and FPSs so I lump them in one place in my brain (the "not interested" place). I don't think it distracted from my point though.
FPS = First Person Shooter. Space Marine is third person. And you can't have played many FPS' if you think they're the same as or similar to TPCBS games. Both have you running around shooting shit, yeah, but the tactics and play-styles are different. TBCBS tend to be much more unforgiving towards you running around like an utter twit.


Nonsense. If anything, it was Mass Blue 2: The Bluening.
There was also a lot of orange. I don't mind the blue, but the orange gets my goat. Mass Effect 3 looks even more orange.

[Krans]

Yes, because there's very little difference in gameplay between third-person cover-based shooters and FPSs so I lump them in one place in my brain (the "not interested" place). I don't think it distracted from my point though.
Um, Space Marine doesn't just have no cover system at all, but it provides incentives to avoid cover and engage closely with the enemy.

[coldvvvave]

Why people hate first Gears of War? Just because of it's community? Because it brought cover mechanics into mainstream? Because it was grey? I thought it was a pretty good game with good gameplay, good graphics, some atmospheric touches and amusing characters. And whats wrong with them being all buff, they are supersoldiers, right?

[Kollega]

Why people hate first Gears of War? Just because of it's community? Because it brought cover mechanics into mainstream? Because it was grey? I thought it was a pretty good game with good gameplay, good graphics, some atmospheric touches and amusing characters. And whats wrong with them being all buff, they are supersoldiers, right?

Yeah, i also wonder about that. I've only played the first Gears, but the firefights were meaty and satisfying, chainsawing Locust in the face never got truly old, and the brown greyness or roid-raging protagonists didn't really distract all that much. Sure, it was a cliched game, but rather well-executed.

[Rii]

Why? It's such a nice video game term (I assume it comes from Doom).

Well I can't speak for the majority perception, maybe you're right, but when I hear 'space marine' I think of stuff like Starship Troopers, The Forever War, The Mote in God's Eye, Aliens, Avatar, Halo and Gears of War ... I don't see it as the catch-all term that you're suggesting and I'm not sure others do either. I would hesitate in describing Mass Effect as a 'space marine' game only because from what I've seen it doesn't appear as though Shepherd's actions occur in a military context, not because s/he's (apparently) an interesting character. Seems to me the best way to avoid confusion is to use a different term for Generic Action Heroes ... like Generic Action Hero. :P


Why people hate first Gears of War? Just because of it's community? Because it brought cover mechanics into mainstream? Because it was grey? I thought it was a pretty good game with good gameplay, good graphics, some atmospheric touches and amusing characters. And whats wrong with them being all buff, they are supersoldiers, right?

Because it was Xbox 360's first blockbuster game and marked Epic's betrayal of its PC roots. So, pretty much the Halo of its generation.

[Althea]

Because it was Xbox 360's first blockbuster game and marked Epic's betrayal of its PC roots. So, pretty much the Halo of its generation.
I dunno, the PC port wasn't too bad except for the fact it took half a year to install. Surely, though, it's the fault of Microsoft Gaming Wankers rather than Epic? Epic were just the dev, MGS the publishers.

[Heliocentric]

Why people hate first Gears of War?

Crap weapon balance, no dedicated servers, series stopped supporting pc meaning you cant invest in SP and population will inevitable dwindle.

If they brought out gears of war 3, sorted the weapon balance and the dedicated server I'd snap it up.

[gundrea]

Could Adam Jensen qualify for space marine? He is a generic action hero and goes briefly to space.

[deano2099]

FPS = First Person Shooter. Space Marine is third person.

Oh thanks for that, I was actually unaware what FPS stood for. Clearly I was wrong and you managed to point it out, so you win an internet point! When you get 200 you can trade them in for a pencil sharpener.

I used it as short-hand for shooter. Yes there's a distinction but it's such a tiny one that it barely matters. The differences between games at either end of the RPG genre are huge, for example. But fine, let's call it a TPS then.

Of course when you read TPS you have to stop and think slightly to realise what it means whereas in the context of what I was saying FPS puts the point across fine, but hell why not argue about the minutiae of definitions on the internet.

Or put another way: find me one guy that is annoyed Syndicate is being re-made as an FPS but would be fine with it being made in to a TPS.

[Land Squid]

There is usually a pretty big difference. Or at least enough that you can't really give them the same name. Third person shooters allow you to easily implement melee combat and cover mechanics for one. In real life you have a good idea of where all your limbs are without looking, in a FPS you don't, so the few first person games that do include melee combat that isn't just click to stab do it differently to TPS. For instance, Space Marine's melee combat wouldn't work at all in first person. The only FPS that has a cover system that I've played is Red Orchestra 2 and that feels incredibly awkward, because it restricts your movement in a way that doesn't feel right when you have no feel of where your body is. Whereas things like Mass Effect or GOW feel perfectly fine when you're in cover because you can see every part of your body. Also, slghtly linked to melee combat, movement can be more elaborate in TPS, like the rolls in GOW or Space Marine.

On the other hand, first person shooters have the advantage that you don't have your character taking up a large portion of your screen so you can aim a lot easier and quicker, and are also arguably more immersive because the view is the same as you have in real life.

[Althea]

I used it as short-hand for shooter. Yes there's a distinction but it's such a tiny one that it barely matters. The differences between games at either end of the RPG genre are huge, for example.
RPG is a big, big, big term, just as strategy is. Civilization V is a turn-based strategy based around, generally, conquering everyone else, and as such is different to Anno 1404 which is a real-time game based more around economics and trade. Both are strategy games, but that is where the similarity ends. FPS is not a big, big, term. It's a specific one used for a certain gameplay feature, i.e. a shooter with a first person perspective, just as TBS is a specific term relating to turn-based strategy gameplay. There might be lots of first person shooters around, but it doesn't mean it works as a catch-all term for shooters, because it only applies to a certain kind.

[Smashbox]

Anyway...



And here, ladies and gentlemen, is another thing that we should really wail and rail against. Why does every action hero need to look and behave like John McClane, of all people?

I agree to a certain extent, but at least I find John McClane (if not his progeny) likable. The real problem in game character design is epitomized here (in a non-PC game):

http://www.thecinemasource.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/Infamous-1.jpg

It just reeks of focus testing, in my opnion.

[deano2099]

There is usually a pretty big difference....

Right, and how do any of those differences have any impact on the point I made in my actual post?

[Land Squid]

Right, and how do any of those differences have any impact on the point I made in my actual post?

Well, all the differences mean that third person shooters are not the same as first person shooters so I would say all of them.

[Heliocentric]

When I choose a game to play a game I don't make a distinction between first and third person, so I get what they mean

[Kadayi]

Or put another way: find me one guy that is annoyed Syndicate is being re-made as an FPS but would be fine with it being made in to a TPS.

But your presumption there is that those who are annoyed about Syndicate being relaunched as an FPS are reasonable people.

[Nalano]

But your presumption there is that those who are annoyed about Syndicate being relaunched as an FPS are reasonable people.

It's wildly arrogant of you to presume that they aren't.

[Mistabashi]

But your presumption there is that those who are annoyed about Syndicate being relaunched as an FPS are reasonable people.

Oh come on, that's a rather wide brush you're painting with there.

It's totally understandable that someone who holds a game in high regard would be slightly peeved to find that a sequel is being made but in a totally different genre, especially when we're talking about Syndicate, which even after all this time is fairly unique.

[Kadayi]

It's wildly arrogant of you to presume that they aren't.

*chortles*


Oh come on, that's a rather wide brush you're painting with there.

It's totally understandable that someone who holds a game in high regard would be slightly peeved to find that a sequel is being made but in a totally different genre, especially when we're talking about Syndicate, which even after all this time is fairly unique.

It's a counterpoint to Deans dismissal of the differential of the 3PS/TPS Vs the FPS. They all share similarities, but generally the experiences are notably distinct. I'd actually say that DX:HR does a great job of marrying both aspects given that by on large it retains the immersive qualities of the FP view, whilst allowing you as the player to slip into 3rd person view, when it comes to particular activities (I'd like to see more developers consider that approach tbh). However going 'the guys raging against Syndicate wouldn't care', therefore there is no differential is a weak sauce argument. The people raging against the new syndicate are locked into FUD, any change is to be abhorred.

[Smashbox]

I wish I knew the things that everyone thinks.

[Nalano]

I wish I knew the things that everyone thinks.

I'm sensing a pattern, here. An opinion he differs with is spam (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?1448-EA-Account-now-an-Origin-Account&p=38325&viewfull=1#post38325), and if lots of people disagree with him, they're just afraid (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?1448-EA-Account-now-an-Origin-Account&p=38122#post38122).

[Smashbox]

I, for one, am actually afraid.

[Kadayi]

I'm sensing a pattern, here. An opinion he differs with is spam (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?1448-EA-Account-now-an-Origin-Account&p=38325&viewfull=1#post38325), and if lots of people disagree with him, they're just afraid (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/forums/showthread.php?1448-EA-Account-now-an-Origin-Account&p=38122#post38122).

I've explained the what and why behind my post (with points) so quit with the OT trolling. If you want to disagree, disagree on point.

[Rossignol]

Are you saying I am not a reasonable man, Kad?

Behave, gentlemen.