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View Full Version : So How's the "Occupy Wall Street" Going?



squirrel
03-10-2011, 01:19 PM
Some of my friends forwarded me this.

http://occupywallst.org/about/

And the NYPD seems to be very tough on the issue, and this is a peaceful demonstration, not a riot. Is disruption of traffic in peaceful demonstration a criminal act in America?

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/10/01/business/wall-street-protests/index.html?iref=allsearch

I envy you mates from democratic world, who always have the right to express you opinions on political affairs. Yes those disrupting public order would be subject to punishment, but they will have fair trial. We also have economic problem here, riots are becoming more frequent. Most of them won't see the light of news report.

I dont know. I am going to have another round of Operation Metro to see if I can forget all those hardships.

Tei
03-10-2011, 02:31 PM
The concept of demostration is a disruptive one. If you make not disruption whatsoever, the people in power can choose to ignore you completelly.
There are more than two ways to do it, one of then is to try to respect the law as much as possible. But is not the most popular one... some people is attracted to the idea to incite the police to violence. Is not a good system, but is a system.

Nalano
03-10-2011, 02:38 PM
Totally egotistical link to my blog post on the issue (http://www.bigsmokestreetcorner.com/?p=1329).

Thing is, we in NYC have peaceful protests all the time. When the Iraq War started, we protested. When the GOP came to town, we protested. When the Tea Party bussed people in to protest the Mosque downtown, we protested. Whenever Bloomberg threatens city workers' pensions or Ahmadinejad or Strauss-Kahn show up in town, we take to the streets - and all these without major incident or mass arrests.

But these people seem to be making a concerted, special effort to annoy and antagonize the cops.

Tei
03-10-2011, 02:51 PM
From your blog:


We have record corporate profits and yet the middle class is shrinking. I, like a lot of people, am worrying about where rent’s going to come from. But what’s that in your hand, protester? A $400 Apple-branded consumer product?



It sounds like you see theres a reason to protest, but you don't like his phone.



The message comes first, THEN the protest.


This is a spontaneous movement, as oposed the organized ones we know well.

Nalano
03-10-2011, 02:59 PM
It sounds like you see theres a reason to protest, but you don't like his phone.

I don't like his attitude, and I think he's counterproductive to an issue I hold near and dear. It's as if they're attempting to get arrested merely to earn a merit badge to prove they Did Something.

Yes, there is clearly a reason to protest. And these people are Doing It Wrong. It's a class struggle, and these people are the wrong class. Their demographics and education put them in the upper tier of society - the laptop charging stations near the first aid huts are evidence - but their mannerisms turn off the working classes they claim to be sympathetic to. They're looking to get arrested because they can afford to get arrested (not to mention they can afford to risk unemployability by spending three weeks getting their faces on national TV), and most of all, they're making liberals look bad.

They're professional protesters. I've seen 'em every protest I've ever attended. They make it more difficult for actual grassroots movements to get any credibility: They antagonize the cops, they hog the camera and turn mealy-mouthed, and they largely do nothing but travel around on their parents' dime calling attention to themselves.


This is a spontaneous movement, as oposed the organized ones we know well.

And we can plainly see what happens when you try to force the issue with #OccupyWallStreet instead of actually having a popular movement behind you. Kinda reminds me of the sorts of astroturf tricks people try on 4chan to get an unfunny meme to trend.

Tei
03-10-2011, 03:24 PM
We have a movement like this one on my country. Is called the "15M movement" or "los indignados".

(you can use a webtranslator to read about it here)
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movimiento_15-M

Is very similar, so I assume is the same movement.


On my country, the movement started neutral, with people from the left and the right, but started becoming left wing has was "made looks bad" by the media.

It also turned into more "fight with the cops" than anything sensible. I can't say I hate it, because hate is too strong a sentiment, but I don't like the idea to create conflict with the police to generate media attention, Is something stupid, and I hate it (so I hate the tactic, not the people).


- - -

The thing is... the ACTA continue forward, here on europe, the music industry have extend copyright to 70 years. All these things are against the interest of the people, but the people in power is doing whatever want. While we live in democracies, are not working well, with the people in power using his personal power to help some groups profit. It feels somewhat like the people in the bottom has not power anymore. The system needs some finne tunning so the people on the top respond to the demands on the people in the bottom, just now don't seems to work. So some change and "revolution" is needed.

The mafia works by breaking some noses, and people work by doing these type of protest. I only hate these protest wen focus on generate media attention to causing violence. Anyway I understand that this violence "works", has create media attention. But I think is the tool of the dumbs.

lasikbear
03-10-2011, 03:51 PM
My office is on Wall Street (I work for a software company but we happen to be located there) and as far as I have seen the protests have been entirely peaceful and non-antagonistic. Most of the police officers here are just doing their jobs as well, and for the majority of the day they just have to stand at the barricades (which are currently closing 50-75% of most of the pedestrian only streets).

I haven't heard anything about the protesters antagonizing cops, but I have heard plenty about the NYPD overstepping its bounds multiple times, including a white-shirt (Lieutenant or higher) trying to lean over the barricades to grab people and a couple instances of pepper spray.

In terms of how its going as a protest...not entirely sure. It seems like most people only started to hear about it in the past week or so, even my friends still in college an hour from here. The police brutality incidents and some of the arrests have given it more media coverage, but generally those stories are mainly about the police and have little of the actual protest. I've heard of similar events in Chicago, Boston and SF, but I think they are all pretty small for now.

(Also note that all of my evidence for how aware people are is completely anecdotal and mostly comes from a few converstaions+facebook statuses)

Skalpadda
03-10-2011, 04:01 PM
Nalano: That sounds like an awful lot of generalisations to attach to quite a lot of people, especially seeing as, from what I've read about it (mostly BBC coverage), it's been pretty calm. I don't know if an iPhone is an actual status object in the US, but it seems a bit weird to say that because someone happens to belong to the middle class, can afford some luxury items and uses twitter, their voicing of opinions is invalid (or even somehow harmful).

Nalano
03-10-2011, 04:17 PM
Nalano: That sounds like an awful lot of generalisations to attach to quite a lot of people, especially seeing as, from what I've read about it (mostly BBC coverage), it's been pretty calm. I don't know if an iPhone is an actual status object in the US, but it seems a bit weird to say that because someone happens to belong to the middle class, can afford some luxury items and uses twitter, their voicing of opinions is invalid (or even somehow harmful).

If you read my blog further, you'll see I tend to dislike the public image hipsters make, especially when they get political. Critical Mass, for instance, hurts public image of bicyclists in this city, and has been the only thing that's prompted the NYPD to start confiscating bicycles and harassing bicyclists. The folks in Critical Mass treat it like a lifestyle, not a necessity, and stage events that needlessly showboat and antagonize.

I specify iPhones and Twitter because they are status symbols, and while the reality is a bit more complicated, the divide between these middle-class college-educated bourgeys beating drums like it was the 60s all over again and, say, the folks from the projects up a few blocks or right across the river is quite stark. They don't mix. In fact, they don't even like each other. The traditional church/union/block association/neighborhood committees that usually become the mouthpiece for the working class are notably absent in these proceedings, and instead are replaced by social media and Michael Moore. For such a grassroots movement, the police end up looking more diverse than the protesters.

Point is, gross political change - and large, spontaneous demonstrations - happens when people are desperate, and people are not desperate enough for this one to take off. That's why it keeps coming off as a circus in the media, and why we care more about Tony Baloney than the One Demand and why the idiots that thought you could walk on the roadway on the Brooklyn Bridge are getting more coverage than, say, the nepotism between Wall Street and the White House.

lasikbear
03-10-2011, 05:26 PM
Also 24 people were arrested in Boston for civil disobedience at a protest at Bank of America. The organizers claim there were 3000 people at the protest, not sure how accurate that is.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iHhlXOqrYokey_WrIkJuEM5SiQ5g?docId=CNG.744d1 6200e5347083eda023b63ff4507.01

Skalpadda
03-10-2011, 05:55 PM
My impression from reading news over the last 10 years or so is that the middle class in the US have quite a lot to protest and be worried about. I do agree with you that if there are people protesting for the sake of protesting or just out to pick a fight with law enforcement to try and relive some sort of idealised civil rights struggle, well yes that sucks and they should be ignored. That's just not the impression I'm getting and it's a shame if a few attention-seeking idiots divert the focus from those who are worried and frustrated and want to express that in some way.

Tei
03-10-2011, 06:22 PM
I think "the system" is too stable just now.

And with stable, I mean "dead", osified.

We are seeing progress this weird way because all other ways progress can happend has ben neutered.

Take unions. Unions are part of the system, part of the bureaucracy monster.

So how can people start something really disruptive? the first step is to ignore all stablished groups, like unions, political parties...
..the system dominate these groups, and don't serve the people in the bottom, but the people on the top.

Fist step: Ignore all stablished powers, start your own.
Second step: ????
Thirds step: Freedom!

CuriousOrange
03-10-2011, 07:00 PM
I think it's necessary to antagonise now. Peaceful protests happen all the time to no attention. Look at how much has happened because of the riots in the UK. No attention would have been brought to that if it hadn't got violent.

But then, I'm just waiting for someone to organise me into a group, arm me and tell me to take parliament.

icupnimpn2
03-10-2011, 09:55 PM
Maybe I'm in need of an update, but is everything in the UK sunshine and rainbows now because a bunch of people terrorized their own neighborhoods?

Nalano
04-10-2011, 12:51 AM
The organizers claim there were 3000 people at the protest, not sure how accurate that is.

I just assume the organizers double the numbers, the local authorities halve them.


Maybe I'm in need of an update, but is everything in the UK sunshine and rainbows now because a bunch of people terrorized their own neighborhoods?

If you ask me, I always thought the problem with riots was that they terrorized the wrong neighborhoods.


That's just not the impression I'm getting and it's a shame if a few attention-seeking idiots divert the focus from those who are worried and frustrated and want to express that in some way.

I appreciate that and if I agreed that the organizers of this particular showboat were capable of doing anything but make fools of themselves I'd willingly do more than mock them from the sidelines. That said, honestly, this ain't exactly fire-hoses and machine-guns territory.

Also, on a personal note, I really ought to be selling t-shirts downtown: "I Marched On Wall Street And All I Got Was This Concussion"

outoffeelinsobad
04-10-2011, 01:53 AM
It seems to me, the NYC protest is more symbolic than effective. So far, it has inspired similar protests in Boston, Chicago, LA, San Francisco, and DC, but it has realistically accomplished fuck all, aside from providing an opportunity for Anthony Bologna to get his rocks off by brutalizing innocent kids.

We liberals need to get it in our heads that democracy takes place at the voting booth. The Tea Party fucking ROCKED the 2010 election because they understood that, and now their bull-horned, red-faced idiots have taken our government hostage and are waging war on civil rights.

Nalano
04-10-2011, 04:55 AM
The Tea Party fucking ROCKED the 2010 election because they understood that

The Tea Party rocked the 2010 election because they're an astroturf movement heavily bankrolled by the Koch brothers. Further, all that's accomplished is cause a ridiculous divide in the Republican party where every candidate nowadays has to go through a hazing where he beats all the others in being as doctrinaire as possible in order to secure nomination while those in office, to secure re-election, can only stand in obstinate lockstep to an ideal so unworkably backwards as to hold the entire nation hostage.

Yeah, let's be more like them.

Alex Bakke
04-10-2011, 01:37 PM
Some of their demands are ridiculous, and wearing costumes will not get businessmen to take you seriously.

A lot of the stuff they're demanding would be better directed towards Washington - It's a bit weird going to the bankers and saying 'Er, can you make a bit less money please'.

squirrel
04-10-2011, 03:30 PM
It's a bit weird going to the bankers and saying 'Er, can you make a bit less money please'.

Yeah, commoners or even the government cannot, but the Central Bank can.

Totally nationalize the Central Bank can be a solution. Our People Bank of China is truly a wholly state-owned bank. I am so much surprised to learn that most central banks in the world are not actually stated-owned. For instance, it is quite a stunning fact to me that the Bank of England, established in 1694, started out as a chartered bank which is actually owned by bankers, not by the British government. I mean, it is very unjust to grant the currency issuing right to such a non-government institution. I was taught in high-school that central banks are traditionally considered to be running effectively only if they are independent. I just can't believe that in western economies they are that "independent". More frightening fact that the Bank of International Settlement, the infamous "central bank of central banks" used to have private stock holders sometime before Y2K.

If central bank is wholly state-owned, and the government is a representative government, by elect your government you can also have a say on how those bankers conduct their business. I mean, you dont have to outlaw those greedy bankers (assume they really commit some dishonest acts they are accused of), just close the water tap will do the trick: and that's exactly what our government always does (but our government is not an elected one of course).

outoffeelinsobad
05-10-2011, 12:29 AM
The Tea Party rocked the 2010 election because they're an astroturf movement heavily bankrolled by the Koch brothers. Further, all that's accomplished is cause a ridiculous divide in the Republican party where every candidate nowadays has to go through a hazing where he beats all the others in being as doctrinaire as possible in order to secure nomination while those in office, to secure re-election, can only stand in obstinate lockstep to an ideal so unworkably backwards as to hold the entire nation hostage.

Yeah, let's be more like them.

Is that a refutation? The reason astroturfing works is because it gets people to vote, which is what I want liberals to do. I never said we should emulate the Tea Party, except in the way that they mobilize voters.

Anyway, anyone with an interest in the topic could do worse than to read this HuffPo article (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/edward-murray/occupy-wall-street-protest_b_988341.html).

Nalano
05-10-2011, 01:05 AM
Is that a refutation? The reason astroturfing works is because it gets people to vote, which is what I want liberals to do. I never said we should emulate the Tea Party, except in the way that they mobilize voters.

So you want to spend millions to buy politicians and string along a poorly-educated constituency in order to cynically drive your self-serving agenda into policy at the cost of the nation's ability to govern itself? Just making sure I'm understanding you here.

outoffeelinsobad
05-10-2011, 04:49 AM
Seriously? No, I do not think misleading voters in order to commit heinous bullshit is a positive thing. I would just like for the generally neglectful, apathetic 20-something to go to their local school/church to cast a damn ballot every couple of years. Jeez.

Xercies
05-10-2011, 10:01 AM
But in this country we did that actually, you saw loads of neglectful apethetic 20 somethings actually go out and vote for the party that seemed to really want to go for those people...unfortunatly after the vote it changed to the party which was the exact opposite of what we voted for.

And thats why you get these protests and to be honest even if it was more organised and even if it did have a singular view I don't think it would do much. It just seems what they want is a very fundamental change to a system that won't change because there is just to many people that like it how it is. And those people have the real influence.

Nalano
05-10-2011, 01:05 PM
It just seems what they want is a very fundamental change to a system that won't change because there is just to many people that like it how it is. And those people have the real influence.

I wouldn't necessarily say too many people so much as a few people who are way too rich.

Thing is, they tend not to hang out at Wall Street. Only their workaday underlings do.

As for getting 20-somethings to be more politically active (and not just talk guff), my solution is necessary though not at all convenient: Education. Even the college grads are poorly under-served in figuring out the important bits. Our standards have fallen, we're not at all supporting academics (and indeed in the NYC Department of Education we've just had more than 700 layoffs this year - as well as more than 700 two years ago - and straight budget cuts for the last five), and as such it's no surprise (to me at least) why our latest generations have a poor understanding of the goings on of our government and are so easily misguided by the endless nonstop barefaced propaganda blaring at us daily.

Pijama
05-10-2011, 03:36 PM
No war like the old class war.

outoffeelinsobad
05-10-2011, 08:00 PM
But in this country we did that actually, you saw loads of neglectful apethetic 20 somethings actually go out and vote for the party that seemed to really want to go for those people...unfortunatly after the vote it changed to the party which was the exact opposite of what we voted for.


In 2008 we went out and voted for Obama, but when 2010 came around we stayed at home.



Thing is, they tend not to hang out at Wall Street.

Truth. They hang out at Capitol Hill. That whole revolving door thing is a real pain in the ass.

Nalano
05-10-2011, 09:55 PM
In 2008 we went out and voted for Obama, but when 2010 came around we stayed at home.

That's always been the case. High voter turnout: Democrat wins. Low voter turnout: Republican wins.

outoffeelinsobad
16-10-2011, 01:34 AM
Update. This is Times Square today: http://www.flickr.com/photos/32148883@N02/6248019380

This is the rest of the world: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2011/oct/15/occupy-wall-street-movement-global#/?picture=380478411&index=0

Nalano
16-10-2011, 02:57 AM
I dare say the protesters have certainly gotten the ball rolling: They've certainly changed the topic of debate, and it just seems to grow and grow.

Xercies
16-10-2011, 10:36 AM
I was really surprised about this when i heard it on the news that pretty much every city is having their own protest. I think that will definitely get people at least looking at you.

acidtestportfolio
17-10-2011, 12:03 AM
tax the rich up the ass

DigitalSignalX
17-10-2011, 12:12 AM
Those guys in Rome kinda went off the tracks (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/15/rome-protests-pictures-photos_n_1013203.html?igoogle=1) though. Not sure if burning cars is part of the no-greed script.

Nalano
17-10-2011, 12:56 AM
Those guys in Rome kinda went off the tracks (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/15/rome-protests-pictures-photos_n_1013203.html?igoogle=1) though. Not sure if burning cars is part of the no-greed script.

Depends on how closely you follow Fight Club.

Serenegoose
17-10-2011, 03:33 AM
Those guys in Rome kinda went off the tracks (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/15/rome-protests-pictures-photos_n_1013203.html?igoogle=1) though. Not sure if burning cars is part of the no-greed script.

The thing is with a protest, is that they can't check your invite at the door. Anybody who wants to start shit can start shit, and there isn't anything the protestors can do about it, except what they do, which is to say that it wasn't them, which naturally, nobody believes - being as it is so hard to infiltrate a random crowd of people with no set uniform with a brick, and then hurl it before anybody realises what you're doing.

Anthile
18-10-2011, 02:33 PM
http://i.imgur.com/UKlzD.jpg

Heliocentric
18-10-2011, 02:41 PM
Depends on how closely you follow Fight Club.

Don't talk about it!

Xercies
19-10-2011, 05:31 PM
I think fight club and V For Vendetta are to blame for every kid who wants to fight the system and protest now and just want to defeat the government RAAARGH!

outoffeelinsobad
19-10-2011, 06:27 PM
You think Fight Club and V for Vendetta are responsible for all present and future civil disobedience? Have they stopped teaching Thoreau in schools? What about G.K. Chesterton? Have they stopped showing MLK Jr.'s speech from the Lincoln Memorial? Ever heard of Gandhi or Guevara? Aung San Suu Kyi? Not everyone gets their education from pop culture, guy.

Nalano
19-10-2011, 06:44 PM
I'm not at all one to say that every contemporary protest is a rehash of pop cultural osmosis. God knows I've been to more than a few protests of varying degrees of organization and success (and funny enough, for all I think unions are selling out the young, they do good protests).

It's just that the guys downtown, despite their apparent success in tapping into deep-seated grievances about our current political gamesmanship, tend to look like the trust fund babies of ex-hippies trying to live an Across the Universe rose-colored interpretation of a '60s sit-in. When they complain (http://www.bigsmokestreetcorner.com/?p=1349)* about getting their $5,500 Mac laptops stolen, you gotta wonder.

*shameless self-promotion

Berzee
19-10-2011, 10:56 PM
I saw an "Occupy Cleveland" a few weeks ago, and I wanted to stand between the talking dude and the microphone and mumble "Occupy Occupy Cleveland...."

Xercies
20-10-2011, 09:42 AM
Have they stopped teaching Thoreau in schools? What about G.K. Chesterton? Have they stopped showing MLK Jr.'s speech from the Lincoln Memorial? Ever heard of Gandhi or Guevara? Aung San Suu Kyi?

Actually I've opnly really ever heard a few of those from pop culture, only MLK and Gandhi was taught in my school. The rest I had to get from films, news, pop culture and cracked.com

gundrea
20-10-2011, 11:01 AM
I read Descartes. I can't even prove that you exist.

Nalano
20-10-2011, 06:40 PM
I read Descartes. I can't even prove that you exist.

This is the internet. For all you know, I'm a clever bot.

squirrel
22-10-2011, 01:50 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmEHcOc0Sys

I am speechless.