PDA

View Full Version : Shall we talk about Skyrim?



Pages : 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9

Berzee
09-11-2011, 08:29 AM
Re: path-finding, I got Outcast for my birthday (yay!) and was rather easily impressed by the fact that in a village, you can ask any villager for the location of a particular person, and depending on the distance they'll either say "I think I saw him in such-and-such direction a while ago..." or "He's in that direction, but I can't see him from here" or if he's very close they'll point to him.

I've seen other games do the pointing, but not one game with three options! It was awesome. =)

Althea
09-11-2011, 09:59 AM
According to Steam, you can now pre-load Skyrim. Thought some people would like to know.

deathcarrot
09-11-2011, 11:35 AM
Re: path-finding, I got Outcast for my birthday (yay!) and was rather easily impressed by the fact that in a village, you can ask any villager for the location of a particular person, and depending on the distance they'll either say "I think I saw him in such-and-such direction a while ago..." or "He's in that direction, but I can't see him from here" or if he's very close they'll point to him.

I've seen other games do the pointing, but not one game with three options! It was awesome. =)
TES has done something similar before with Daggerfall; the person either didn't know, gave a vague direction, or marked it on your map. I'd certainly prefer a fuzzy direction that gets progressively more precise as you get closer, rather than a marker that points exactly where you need to go, but it becomes more difficult to implement when dialog is fully voiced.

baboonanza
09-11-2011, 12:56 PM
I like quest arrows. I don't have enough free time to spend it sweeping areas of the countryside to find a particular dungeon/quest giver/what-have-you. That's not to say that I don't enjoy wandering the countryside in ES games, but I want to do it when it suits me.

To each their own basically, but I think you'll find that people who want fuzzy directions to be a minority of players.

Squiz
09-11-2011, 01:47 PM
Out of curiosity: To those people who have pre-ordered the game, which retailer (if any) have you chosen? The best price I can see at the moment (the one listed at savygamer (http://savygamer.co.uk/2011/11/04/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-physical-map-pc-24-98/)) is ~24.98GBP, plus shipping if you are ordering from outside the UK. I was thinking about getting the game on release (or shortly thereafter) and would prefer to get a boxed copy.

apricotsoup
09-11-2011, 01:59 PM
I went with shopto just because I trust them.
Not the cheapest in this instance but they did email me a photo of my parcel, which despite being odd did let me see that I ordered it to my parents house by mistake, thankfully I can get someone there to send me the code.

Dugular
09-11-2011, 02:22 PM
Out of curiosity: To those people who have pre-ordered the game, which retailer (if any) have you chosen? The best price I can see at the moment (the one listed at savygamer (http://savygamer.co.uk/2011/11/04/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-physical-map-pc-24-98/)) is ~24.98GBP, plus shipping if you are ordering from outside the UK. I was thinking about getting the game on release (or shortly thereafter) and would prefer to get a boxed copy.

I got mine from GAME for £29.99. Mainly because they have a reputation to uphold in trying to be the 'gamers' store. What this means is they ship pre-orders early to make sure you have them by launch day. This often results in you getting it 1-2 days early. They emailed me yesterday morning saying they had shipped it, so if you order from them now, it'll go out today.

Squiz
09-11-2011, 03:12 PM
Hm, I made some unpleasant experiences with GAME in the past (missing activation codes), so it is unlikely that I'll buy the game there. Plus, I am living outside the UK, so it wouldn't be here right at release date anyways. On the other hand, they DID refund me and I've already got an account at their webpage.

Cheers anyways guys!

deathcarrot
09-11-2011, 03:54 PM
Preordered on steam because I wanted the Quakecon Bethesda pack at a discount. In hindsight it would have been cheaper just to buy the pack full price and get Skyrim elsewhere as the steam euro-zone price is €50 (£42).

Ian
09-11-2011, 04:04 PM
I think I ordered from The Hut for £27.85.

Fiyenyaa
09-11-2011, 07:02 PM
I went with shopto just because I trust them.
Not the cheapest in this instance but they did email me a photo of my parcel, which despite being odd did let me see that I ordered it to my parents house by mistake, thankfully I can get someone there to send me the code.

Same with me. Never used shopto before, so the whole sent-me-a-picture-of-my-order thing was a little odd - but holy heck it's shipped first class today! Please let it arrive tomorrow! It's my effing day off!
Not that I'm giddy as a schoolgirl with excitement for something that'll probably not happen or anything...

JamesG
09-11-2011, 07:16 PM
Ordered from Bee.com, £21.59. Not used them before, but know that they are legit. Not dispatched yet though, so no idea when I'll receive it. Had to change the delivery address at one point, which I couldn't do automatically, and basically had to place a new order. Customer support did give me a new discount code though.

Interesting to hear good things about ShopTo though. I've almost used them before, but the registration process was a bastard, and they wouldn't let me buy PSN credit until I had placed an order for something else with them.

Slychocobo
09-11-2011, 09:11 PM
Same with me. Never used shopto before, so the whole sent-me-a-picture-of-my-order thing was a little odd - but holy heck it's shipped first class today! Please let it arrive tomorrow! It's my effing day off!
Not that I'm giddy as a schoolgirl with excitement for something that'll probably not happen or anything...

I hate to burst your bubble, but if it does arrive tomorrow (Thursday) You still wont be able to play as Steam will prevent you from launching it.

:(

Fiyenyaa
09-11-2011, 09:18 PM
I hate to burst your bubble, but if it does arrive tomorrow (Thursday) You still wont be able to play as Steam will prevent you from launching it.

:(

Yeah, I just realised that after talking with a couple of friends on steam. I may be something of a steam fanboy (or at least, I like it most of the time) but BALLS TO YOU STEAMFACE in this instance.

Slychocobo
09-11-2011, 09:25 PM
Dont feel too bad Fiyenyaa. I never realised it till I got Deus Ex HR 2 days early and tried to install it only to get the "PreLoad" option instead, Almost went a little Shanter "STEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMMM!!"

*cough*

Fiyenyaa
09-11-2011, 09:49 PM
Dont feel too bad Fiyenyaa. I never realised it till I got Deus Ex HR 2 days early and tried to install it only to get the "PreLoad" option instead, Almost went a little Shanter "STEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMMM!!"

*cough*

Still... pretty galling to know that the console folks are playing it already, if they have been lucky enough to get their copies early.

Smashbox
09-11-2011, 10:22 PM
The texture resolutions may be galling them, however.

I did the pre-load Steam thingie after searching high and low for a cheaper version. Why are games $60 now, again?

I am really looking forward to it. In a freakishly lucky turn of events, I have Friday off from work due to the pseudo-holiday known as Veterans' Day.

Jockie
09-11-2011, 10:38 PM
Will just weigh in and say Shopto have pretty much the best customer service I've encountered in Uk online retail, even if they're not the cheapest. Not to sound like one of those fake website 'customer' quotes but they go the extra mile (failed).

Also, the Skyrim Nexus site is up, they tend to do the best modding community sites for Bethesda games - http://www.skyrimnexus.com/ (nothing good up yet mind)

db1331
09-11-2011, 10:59 PM
Still... pretty galling to know that the console folks are playing it already, if they have been lucky enough to get their copies early.

Are they though? Is it lucky to be utterly ignorant enough to play an Elder Scrolls game on a console?

TillEulenspiegel
09-11-2011, 11:00 PM
The texture resolutions may be galling them, however.
It's the analog stick controls that make me cringe. Watching someone try to aim a bow is painful.

The menus are plainly designed for a gamepad; they look like they work fine. But first-person combat? No thanks.

Hm. I wonder how a gamepad with something closer to a trackball would work. Finer control, instead of using a big lever that only allows coarse movement.

sopabuena
10-11-2011, 02:17 AM
I will follow the hype and preorder this game, I have to questions you may help me with:
1) Never been a fan of RPG, but this year I played both Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas and loved them. Will I find Skyrim appealing?
2) I understand the game requires Steam, and I like having my games on Steam so I'm OK with that. Is there an online distributor that has the game cheaper now (with voucher codes or stuff like that?)? If I buy from eslewhere should I be able to get an Steam code and preload the game right away? I know this probably has been mentioned before but I could only find retail versions offers.

Thanks for the help!

Wizardry
10-11-2011, 02:27 AM
1) Never been a fan of RPG, but this year I played both Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas and loved them. Will I find Skyrim appealing?
You'll probably like it considering it's just as much an RPG as those two games (i.e. not very).

thegooseking
10-11-2011, 02:39 AM
It's the analog stick controls that make me cringe. Watching someone try to aim a bow is painful.

The menus are plainly designed for a gamepad; they look like they work fine. But first-person combat? No thanks.

Hm. I wonder how a gamepad with something closer to a trackball would work. Finer control, instead of using a big lever that only allows coarse movement.

Even melee combat in Oblivion was better with a mouse than a pad, and that just doesn't happen.

Speaking of melee combat, I tried playing Star Wars: TFU on the Xbox. It takes a full four seconds to turn through 360 degrees with the analogue stick. I'm not trying to aim a sniper rifle here; I'm trying to twirl around with my lightsaber! So much for "Jedi reflexes".

Spider Jerusalem
10-11-2011, 03:34 AM
1) Never been a fan of RPG, but this year I played both Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas and loved them. Will I find Skyrim appealing?

well fo3 was oblivion with guns and skyrim is going to be fo3 with dragons so i think you'll find it to your taste.

BobsLawnService
10-11-2011, 05:36 AM
I'm leaving on holiday on Sunday and will be away from my PC for two weeks. Remind me why I preorderted again?

soldant
10-11-2011, 06:46 AM
Got my copy on my desk, ready to play. Just waiting now for Steam to unlock it.

Does it bother me that the console gamers are playing it right now? Kind of. But then again I have Deus Ex: Human Revolution on the PS3, and I know from the texture quality and resolution that it's worth waiting the extra 8 or so hours.

EDIT: You know another annoying part of Steam? I can't use the install media to preload. If I want to preload, it has to be via download. Can't see why they can't just let me install it but keep it locked... unless the EXEs/missing parts are actually on the DVD and they won't let it install as a result.

thegooseking
10-11-2011, 07:33 AM
Edit: Never mind. Apparently I was wrong in this instance. It has been known to happen.

Edit again: No, I was right. Or wrong about being wrong, if you prefer to see it that way. The download is encrypted. I was just wrong about there being no files missing from the download.

So the Steam download is encrypted but presumably the files on the DVD are not. That'd be why you can't pre-install from the disc.

Binho
10-11-2011, 08:27 AM
Also, the Skyrim Nexus site is up, they tend to do the best modding community sites for Bethesda games - http://www.skyrimnexus.com/ (nothing good up yet mind)

Should we start taking bets on when the first hentai mods/nude mods will come out? :P I say 24hrs post-launch. Tops. :P

Althea
10-11-2011, 09:53 AM
1) Never been a fan of RPG, but this year I played both Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas and loved them. Will I find Skyrim appealing?
Ignoring the troll-like comments above, I'll try give this a go.

Obviously, we don't know exactly how Skyrim will work out, but I personally think if you liked FO3 and New Vegas then Skyrim will be up your street. Chances are it'll sit between them in terms of the complexity of the ruleset and/or gear choices, which is by no means a bad thing. The melée combat will very likely be like it was in FO3/New Vegas, in that a quick mouse press is just an attack, whereas if you hold and release you get a power attack.

Yeah, I think you'll like it, but if you're not sure then I would suggest you just wait a short while for it to come down to a less "risky" price.

Vexing Vision
10-11-2011, 10:31 AM
I'm leaving on holiday on Sunday and will be away from my PC for two weeks. Remind me why I preorderted again?

Clooooooth map. *drools incoherently*

JackShandy
10-11-2011, 11:16 AM
If you liked FO3 absolutely get Skyrim - from what I've seen it's very similar. Scripted intro, release into large world with goal at the end, emphasis on main quest. Prettier, and with swords.

That's what's kind of putting me off. I played Morrowind for the first time just now. I threw the main quest in a ditch and ran directly into the ocean. I expected a quick reload, but after activating water breathing I found I could dive for pearls, worth 100 GP each. From then on I totally ignored my epic destiny and just grubbed around there as a skin-flint scavenger; exploring caves, fighting off skullfish, harvesting fungus for water-walk potions, scraping the bonemeal off skeleton's in a shipwreck.

Skyrim begins with a 25 minute scripted tutorial that starts you on your epic destiny, and gives you a companion from the get-go. It's immediately obvious that the game would never let you throw the main quest in a ditch.

ado
10-11-2011, 11:29 AM
Skyrim begins with a 25 minute scripted tutorial that starts you on your epic destiny, and gives you a companion from the get-go. It's immediately obvious that the main quest will never let you throw it in a ditch.

That kinda sucks if true, especially if this NPC requires extensive hand-holding and is a nagging turd about the main quest. I doubt that the NPC follows you around for too long though.

Althea
10-11-2011, 11:32 AM
Skyrim begins with a 25 minute scripted tutorial that starts you on your epic destiny. It's immediately obvious that the game would never let you throw the main quest in a ditch.
Morrowind had the ship, Oblivion had the sewers, FO3 had the Vault. I don't think 25 minutes of tutorial will really matter all that much.

JackShandy
10-11-2011, 11:48 AM
The ship? Come on, that's five minutes to allot your stats. Oblivion and Fallout 3 both had large, replayability-impeding intros, yeah. I shouldn't have been surprised.

To be fair, it was a lot more entertaining than the intro of either of those games. I still have nightmares about that birthday party.

EDIT: It's more that, from the 3-hour preview I've seen, this kind of emphasis on scripted moments carries on through a lot of the game. Getting some of your main abilities, for example, involves a long, apparently unavoidable sequence of talking to monks about your epic destiny and how great you are.

I don't mind that stuff at all, but it's not what I look for in an elder scrolls game. I don't want bioware in my bethesda.

soldant
10-11-2011, 12:15 PM
Clooooooth map. *drools incoherently*
I hope I ended up with a not-cloth map, because if mine's a cloth map, it's awfully rigid and feels a lot like paper. Thick paper, but not like cloth.

Squiz
10-11-2011, 12:20 PM
I don't want bioware in my bethesda. :) I'd like to express my approval of this particular comment.

Vexing Vision
10-11-2011, 12:23 PM
I hope I ended up with a not-cloth map, because if mine's a cloth map, it's awfully rigid and feels a lot like paper. Thick paper, but not like cloth.

Oh. Well. I expect mine on Monday. :/

Fiyenyaa
10-11-2011, 01:01 PM
Got my copy on my desk, ready to play. Just waiting now for Steam to unlock it.

Same. I feel like this day off is going to be a waste. Getting a haircut is quite the same...


Does it bother me that the console gamers are playing it right now? Kind of. But then again I have Deus Ex: Human Revolution on the PS3, and I know from the texture quality and resolution that it's worth waiting the extra 8 or so hours.

More like 16...


EDIT: You know another annoying part of Steam? I can't use the install media to preload. If I want to preload, it has to be via download. Can't see why they can't just let me install it but keep it locked... unless the EXEs/missing parts are actually on the DVD and they won't let it install as a result.

I found this very odd too - I can only assume you're right about the install hoo-hah. I also found it a little odd that Steam is only mentioned in a little warning box - no logo. It gave me some false hope for a while there, annoyingly enough.


I hope I ended up with a not-cloth map, because if mine's a cloth map, it's awfully rigid and feels a lot like paper. Thick paper, but not like cloth.

Yeah, it's more like reinforced paper or something. Pretty sturdy, but not cloth.

soldant
10-11-2011, 01:26 PM
More like 16...
I'm in Australia, 11/11/11 is tomorrow for me! Also judging by the unlock clock it'll unlock at 2300 Brisbane time, which is pretty cool by my standards!


Yeah, it's more like reinforced paper or something. Pretty sturdy, but not cloth.
So... this really is the premium quality cloth map? I'm... really disappointed. I was honestly expecting actual cloth, like something I'd roll up or possibly use as a placemat. Not thick card which I could possibly turn into a hat.

Dugular
10-11-2011, 01:47 PM
I hate to burst your bubble, but if it does arrive tomorrow (Thursday) You still wont be able to play as Steam will prevent you from launching it.

:(

Wait, what? The boxed copy of Skyrim requires Steam? Please tell me this isn't so! My game is due to arrive today!

Unaco
10-11-2011, 01:48 PM
Wait, what? The boxed copy of Skyrim requires Steam? Please tell me this isn't so! My game is due to arrive today!

It's a Steamworks game so... duh... of course it requires Steam.

Dugular
10-11-2011, 01:52 PM
It's a Steamworks game so... duh... of course it requires Steam.

It's only 'duh' if you are aware of it being a Steamworks game. I was not aware.

Unaco
10-11-2011, 01:58 PM
Did you not read the requirements for the game, to make sure you can run it? They all state "Internet Access for Steam Activation" as being required.

soldant
10-11-2011, 01:59 PM
Yay, just unlocked for me!

Also, I thought it was common knowledge that Skyrim was a Steamworks title? Which was met with 50% joy, and 50% hatred?

Dugular
10-11-2011, 01:59 PM
Did you not read the requirements for the game, to make sure you can run it? They all state "Internet Access for Steam Activation" as being required.

Not on the most common UK game retailer! I'm worried now! I may have to go burn down one of their stores.

http://www.game.co.uk/en/the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-88094?pageSize=20&searchTerm=skyrim

Vexing Vision
10-11-2011, 02:00 PM
It's only 'duh' if you are aware of it being a Steamworks game. I was not aware.

Hum, Amazon certainly made no mentions of this.

Unaco
10-11-2011, 02:03 PM
GAME and Amazon don't have the System Requirements on their pages. So I'm assuming you didn't read the System Requirements, on another site, or in an article, or on SkyRim's Wikipedia page even.

Drake Sigar
10-11-2011, 02:08 PM
I am physically holding the game in my hands and cannot play.

This may be the first time I've seen a timelock with my own eyes. What does everyone think of them? Why hasn't there been a huge backlash? Why do the exist? What madness is this?!


Hum, Amazon certainly made no mentions of this.
Amazon never tells you anything, you have to be willing to do the research yourself.

Dugular
10-11-2011, 02:08 PM
GAME and Amazon don't have the System Requirements on their pages. So I'm assuming you didn't read the System Requirements, on another site, or in an article, or on SkyRim's Wikipedia page even.

You assumed correctly. I never check System Requirements as I'm comfortable with my PC's performance.

To be honest, even if I HAD seen that it was a Steamworks game, I probably wouldn't have thought about the whole "Steam disallowing you to play until release date" thing, purely because I never get games before release date and generally don't care if its Steamworks or not cause I love Steam. This is my first time ever pre-ordering so never had to think about it before. Oh well, lesson learned!

soldant
10-11-2011, 02:11 PM
I am physically holding the game in my hands and cannot play.

This may be the first time I've seen a timelock with my own eyes. What does everyone think of them? Why hasn't there been a huge backlash? Why do the exist? What madness is this?!
You must wait for the arbitrary clock to count down to zero. Meanwhile, the console peasants are playing the game. Spoiler: once it ends, you install it. Then you wait another 4 to 10 minutes for extra stuff to download. Then... maybe, assuming the servers don't overload, it'll decrypt and you can play.

Althea
10-11-2011, 02:19 PM
Hum, Amazon certainly made no mentions of this.
The customer discussions certainly did, though.

Dugular
10-11-2011, 02:23 PM
Guys, quick question.

Is the unlock time in steam the same world-wide, or region specific? I'm in the UK and wouldn't mind having an hour session after midnight. Or do I need to call in sick at work so I can beginning playing at 6am when the states cross over?

Althea
10-11-2011, 02:25 PM
You would be better served by going to sleep and activating it in the morning or evening after work. The time Steam says it'll unlock is rarely the time it actually unlocks. I've had games unlock at 1am, for example.

Dugular
10-11-2011, 02:34 PM
You would be better served by going to sleep and activating it in the morning or evening after work. The time Steam says it'll unlock is rarely the time it actually unlocks. I've had games unlock at 1am, for example.

Thank you. I guess I'm forced to be responsible and just wait for an enjoyable Skyrim weekend. I just may go to the pub tonight and do something sociable as it may be the last time in awhile :)

Jockie
10-11-2011, 02:35 PM
Embargo is gone and it looks like it's the game most of us enthusiasts were hoping it would be.

Work tomorrow will be hell, knowing I have the shiny box sitting there waiting for me. Even worse, what if it's a double jewel case and won't fit through my letterbox, precipitating an evening trip to the post office depot, meaning that the inconveniently and selfishly arranged birthday party I am grudgingly attending will stop me from playing it at all until Saturday Morning at the earliest.

(I think the hype finally got to me).

Anthile
10-11-2011, 02:45 PM
You must wait for the arbitrary clock to count down to zero. Meanwhile, the console peasants are playing the game. Spoiler: once it ends, you install it. Then you wait another 4 to 10 minutes for extra stuff to download. Then... maybe, assuming the servers don't overload, it'll decrypt and you can play.

You should be able to install ("pre-load") it now. If the servers are too busy, try to change your server location to some far away country (Vietnam worked quite well for me).

sinister agent
10-11-2011, 03:27 PM
You should be able to install ("pre-load") it now. If the servers are too busy, try to change your server location to some far away country (Vietnam worked quite well for me).

Why, that's practically communism!

Jockie
10-11-2011, 03:32 PM
According some photoshop meme on my Facebook wall, the Ukraine gives the fastest speeds in Europe for steam servers.

Edit:


Removed the image because it's big and lame.

soldant
10-11-2011, 03:53 PM
You should be able to install ("pre-load") it now. If the servers are too busy, try to change your server location to some far away country (Vietnam worked quite well for me).
Why would I do that when I have a physical copy of it? I just waited until it unlocked, then installed it. Took about 15 minutes for the install. No decryption either.

Initial impressions:
- I think V-sync is forced, or at least it looks like it is and I can't find anywhere to toggle it. Performance is pretty good on my mid-high system (GTX570, i5 2500k, 6GB RAM)
- New engine is pretty good, animations and conversations aren't anywhere near as static as Oblivion. Also there's more than the 6 or 7 voices they've been reusing since Morrowind.
- Holy hell, new Argonian model is... friggin' weird.
- The starting sequence isn't exactly 30 minutes but it drags on a bit, and the old "save before exiting sewers" style bypass doesn't help.
- Dual wielding is pretty cool. Can't block if using magic and weapon though, or if you can I don't know how.
- No classes. Not sure if this is good or not.
- Alchemy has to be done at a bench, ingredients now have effects revealed by eating them. Higher skill = more effects revealed. Not sure if this is an improvement or not.

Althea
10-11-2011, 04:02 PM
Soldant, could you possibly post a pic or something to explain what you mean about the Argonians?

The class thing never really existed in Morrowind/Oblivion, anyway. The "classes" were just preset configs.

baboonanza
10-11-2011, 04:05 PM
I have the box in my hand right now. The pre-order map is pretty nice actually.

It's been a while since I was this excited about a game release, and I'm going to be away all weekend. I think I'll have to get up at 6am tomorrow to get some play time in :)

Drake Sigar
10-11-2011, 04:06 PM
You must wait for the arbitrary clock to count down to zero. Meanwhile, the console peasants are playing the game. Spoiler: once it ends, you install it. Then you wait another 4 to 10 minutes for extra stuff to download. Then... maybe, assuming the servers don't overload, it'll decrypt and you can play.
I see.

Anyone want to buy my copy of Skyrim?

Smashbox
10-11-2011, 04:09 PM
Alex Meer:

I think, at last, there is a new Best Elder Scrolls Ever.

TillEulenspiegel
10-11-2011, 04:43 PM
Already cracked btw, mere moments after the Australian release.

Which just emphasizes the silliness of local time locks for a release date.

Squiz
10-11-2011, 04:50 PM
So, judging by the box cover this is both a Steamworks and a Games for Windows game? Why would you do this to any program that is designed to be fun?

Althea
10-11-2011, 04:54 PM
So, judging by the box cover this is both a Steamworks and a Games for Windows game? Why would you do this to any program that is designed to be fun?
Games for Windows =/= Games for Windows Live.

Unaco
10-11-2011, 04:54 PM
Games for Windows does not equal Games for Windows Live!

Games for Windows is a certification that games get if they meet certain requirements (easy install option, compatibility with x64 architecture, compatibility with certain features of Windows 7, widescreen resolution support, parental controls etc). Games for Windows is a good thing.

Squiz
10-11-2011, 04:58 PM
@Unrav, Unaco: Oh. Stupid me, thanks for clarifying. I assumed that it would be the same as with Bioshock 2 (Steam version). That just makes no sense.

Althea
10-11-2011, 05:03 PM
Very few games remove GfWL for their Steam releases, if any. It's like Steamworks in that it's an integral part of the game, whether it's the content management, the social features, the matchmaking or some other aspect of the game. Dawn of War II + Chaos Rising are, I believe, the only two games that require both Steam and GfWL.

Vexing Vision
10-11-2011, 05:09 PM
Dawn of War II + Chaos Rising are, I believe, the only two games that require both Steam and GfWL.

The GFWL-requirement was removed in a patch a few months after Chaos Rising was released.

acidtestportfolio
10-11-2011, 05:13 PM
i know some dudes are already saying 'oh this is a refinement of what made morrowind and oblivion great!' which doesn't exactly inspire a great deal of confidence in me.

all i know is i want a ronnie james dio mod and the necessary patches + unofficial patch before i dive in

Althea
10-11-2011, 05:16 PM
The GFWL-requirement was removed in a patch a few months after Chaos Rising was released.
I'm pretty sure that's untrue, as I have both and both still require GfWL.

Vexing Vision
10-11-2011, 05:20 PM
I'm pretty sure that's untrue, as I have both and both still require GfWL.

My apologies, I just double-checked. GFWL is patched out retroactively with Retribution.

Althea
10-11-2011, 05:29 PM
My apologies, I just double-checked. GFWL is patched out retroactively with Retribution.
That also never happened. Retribution is an expandalone which never had GfWL applied to it. Instead of the strange half-breed Relic went for with the first two, it went full Steamworks and has been so since release.

DigitalSignalX
10-11-2011, 05:48 PM
If Mr. Meer spent roughly 30 hours without scratching the main quest, or seemingly many of the major side quests, anyone have a clue what the "completionist" play time might be? I'm hoping for 200+ hours.

Althea
10-11-2011, 05:50 PM
If Mr. Meer spent roughly 30 hours without scratching the main quest, or seemingly many of the major side quests, anyone have a clue what the "completionist" play time might be? I'm hoping for 200+ hours.
The speedrun for the main quest was 2hrs 16mins, so extrapolating and factoring in some bullshit numbers, I'm going to say it'll be at least 60 hours.

Smashbox
10-11-2011, 05:51 PM
A reviewer offhandedly estimated about that long in a livestream earlier

DigitalSignalX
10-11-2011, 06:20 PM
60 hours would be a little disappointing, considering I can put 3 times that into a FO:Vegas character from start to credits. That includes DLC, but still.

Althea
10-11-2011, 06:22 PM
60 hours would be a little disappointing, considering I can put 3 times that into a FO:Vegas character from start to credits. That includes DLC, but still.
It's a very, very conservative estimate. New Vegas, for me, was easily hitting the 70+ mark with the DLC and all that, and I think Skyrim will easily be longer.

Squiz
10-11-2011, 07:16 PM
Very few games remove GfWL for their Steam releases, if any. It's like Steamworks in that it's an integral part of the game, whether it's the content management, the social features, the matchmaking or some other aspect of the game. Dawn of War II + Chaos Rising are, I believe, the only two games that require both Steam and GfWL.Bioshock 2 does so too. I was both surprised and disgusted to see that I need to log in to GfWL to save my progression when there are things like cloud saving integrated into Steam. I guess it would mean more time and money to remove the "feature" from the game for a release on Steam. I'd like to circumvent the need for GfWL in this particular case as it makes no sense to me to have that requirement in the first place.

Althea
10-11-2011, 07:18 PM
I'd like to circumvent the need for GfWL in this particular case as it makes no sense to me to have that requirement in the first place.
Which particular case? BioShock 2?

BioShock 2 is a mess on so many levels. It uses GfWL for the multiplayer and for the DLC management, the only other options realistically are Steamworks or an in-house system, which can often be more problematic or costly to use.

Dugular
10-11-2011, 07:21 PM
It's in my haaaaaaaands. Bloody Steam, why do you deny me my pleasure. There is a huge launch event in London at midnight, so I hope that will entice Steam to unlock it on-time. Which means 6 hours of waiting. I guess I could see if I can get a new character in Baldur's Gate to Level 3 in 6 hours. Mmm, maybe Level 2

SephKing
10-11-2011, 07:58 PM
It's in my haaaaaaaands. Bloody Steam, why do you deny me my pleasure. There is a huge launch event in London at midnight, so I hope that will entice Steam to unlock it on-time. Which means 6 hours of waiting. I guess I could see if I can get a new character in Baldur's Gate to Level 3 in 6 hours. Mmm, maybe Level 2

Yeah, really pisses me off that thousands of pirates are enjoing this game right now and I have to sit here, after paying full price, to wait for the game to 'activate' on steam.

Squiz
10-11-2011, 08:08 PM
Which particular case? BioShock 2?

BioShock 2 is a mess on so many levels. It uses GfWL for the multiplayer and for the DLC management, the only other options realistically are Steamworks or an in-house system, which can often be more problematic or costly to use.Yes, Bioshock 2. I only launched it once to see the intro and experience the first moments of the game. I remember that there was a way to circumvent GfWL with Fallout 3 so maybe there is hope. I really don't care about DLC or MP in this case so maybe this is an option for me.

Mistabashi
10-11-2011, 08:31 PM
Yes, Bioshock 2. I only launched it once to see the intro and experience the first moments of the game. I remember that there was a way to circumvent GfWL with Fallout 3 so maybe there is hope. I really don't care about DLC or MP in this case so maybe this is an option for me.

There is a .dll floating around the interwebs that supposedly removes the GfWL integration from Bioshock 2, although I've never tried it so don't know if it works (or if it would cause issues with Steam). You can find it on Timeslip's Sourceforge page if you want to give it a go.

Stevo
10-11-2011, 08:32 PM
Seriously let down by the melee combat it really has no feel or weight to it. If anything it's worst then what Oblivions was.

Althea
10-11-2011, 08:34 PM
Seriously let down by the melee combat it really has no feel or weight to it. If anything it's worst then what Oblivions was.
Does it work, though?

Stevo
10-11-2011, 08:44 PM
Does it work, though?

Does it work as a feature? No.

Does it work in making sure things die. Yes.

You'll know yourself when you start playing it, you feel SO detached when fitting someone, your literally clicking your mouse and get honestly fuck all feedback bar the fact you may some blood spit out of them, it doesn't feel tactical nor does it feel intuitive.

Going down the stealth route to get away from this problem.

Althea
10-11-2011, 08:47 PM
Does it work in making sure things die. Yes.
That is all I care about. That instantly means it's a thousand times better than Morrowind's combat.

Wizardry
10-11-2011, 08:50 PM
That is all I care about. That instantly means it's a thousand times better than Morrowind's combat.
Morrowind has far better combat than Oblivion and most likely Skyrim too.

Smashbox
10-11-2011, 08:54 PM
I didn't know you thought that!

Wizardry
10-11-2011, 09:00 PM
I didn't know you thought that!
Daggerfall's was even better.

Zetetic
10-11-2011, 09:04 PM
So... is there currently nowhere cheaper than Steam at 35GBP?

Edit: That will give me a Steam code now! Amazon has it 30GBP.

(Bah, who am I kidding, my 9600 GT won't cope with it anyway.)

meloncrab
10-11-2011, 09:20 PM
@ Zetetic

It probably will: http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1248590-unofficial-will-my-pc-run-skyrim-thread-46-w-hardware-guide/

The Pink Ninja
10-11-2011, 09:25 PM
Daggerfall's was even better.

No game has had better fighting than pong

SirKicksalot
10-11-2011, 09:27 PM
Seriously let down by the melee combat it really has no feel or weight to it. If anything it's worst then what Oblivions was.

I hoped that since Arkane is part of the Zenimax family they would lend a hand to Skyrim's combat. Bethesda got John Carmack to work on the shadows, why couldn't they pull someone from Arkane to handle the feel of the combat? :(

Stevo
10-11-2011, 09:31 PM
I hoped that since Arkane is part of the Zenimax family they would lend a hand to Skyrim's combat. Bethesda got John Carmack to work on the shadows, why couldn't they pull someone from Arkane to handle the feel of the combat? :(

It's bad REALLY bad. To the point where the games melee combat situations feel lifeless. Here's another post I did for another forum



God you reminded me of playing Dark Souls there and the comparison between the combat is just insane. One does combat very well the other doesn't. The problem lies in the fact that you can't really tell a story about it.

"I ran up to this guy and clicked till he died with little resistance"

"I carefully approached this guy got a feel for his attacks, I made a dash to get him after he had left himself open and finished him"


Mean like at the start of the game you get a Axe (SPOILERS SPOILERS http://b-static.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/tongue.gif) and I was like Aww Yeah im going to feel like a badass now. But when I used it the only difference between it and any other weapon was one, the time it took to swing it, two how much damage it did.

There was no sense of any power coming through with my swings, the game recognised I had successful hit someone and that was that their health pool was deducted and they waited for a new collision.


It's such a shame because this could be one of THE best RPG's if they got it right but alas they don't and to me it's a serious let down.

Wizardry
10-11-2011, 09:35 PM
It's such a shame because this could be one of THE best RPG's if they got it right but alas they don't and to me it's a serious let down.
So it could have been the best RPG ever if it got the feel of weapons correct, even though that is completely irrelevant to the quality of an RPG? That makes little sense to me.

Drake Sigar
10-11-2011, 09:39 PM
Morrowind has far better combat than Oblivion and most likely Skyrim too.
If by better you mean as weightless and ineffectual as your own arguments, then yes. Often I said to myself "this is the best combat system since Rise of the Robots" as my character clumsily swatted at his enemies like a effeminate man with a deadly fear of butterflies.

Stevo
10-11-2011, 09:43 PM
So it could have been the best RPG ever if it got the feel of weapons correct, even though that is completely irrelevant to the quality of an RPG? That makes little sense to me.

All within your opinion. A game with mechanics that don't work and that take away from the experience clearly do effect the overall quality of the game. But if you want to go around shouting lightning bolt at enemies with no feel or reaction then hey be my guess.

Nalano
10-11-2011, 09:45 PM
All within your opinion. A game with mechanics that don't work and that take away from the experience clearly do effect the overall quality of the game. But if you want to go around shouting lightning bolt at enemies with no feel or reaction then hey be my guess.

Considering his opinions about graphics, action-based combat and sex, I'm sure "visceral" is not in his vocabulary.

Wizardry
10-11-2011, 09:46 PM
If by better you mean as weightless and ineffectual as your own arguments, then yes. Often I said to myself "this is the best combat system since Rise of the Robots" as my character clumsily swatted at his enemies like a effeminate man with a deadly fear of butterflies.
Well that's just you being punished for not developing the right character for your own play style.

Dugular
10-11-2011, 10:02 PM
So... is there currently nowhere cheaper than Steam at 35GBP?

Edit: That will give me a Steam code now! Amazon has it 30GBP.

(Bah, who am I kidding, my 9600 GT won't cope with it anyway.)

That's the card I've got, and I have my copy here, waiting for midnight. I'll let you know how it runs.

Ian
10-11-2011, 10:15 PM
I see Wulf's living it up in the WIT comments, as usual saying anybody who likes the things he doesn't is a brainless, emotionless dolt.

Drake Sigar
10-11-2011, 10:18 PM
Well that's just you being punished for not developing the right character for your own play style.

Why do I get the feeling questioning RPG credentials is your equivalent of insinuating an inadequate penis size? My character's unconvincing fights remained the same whether he was fresh off the boat or had max skillpoints. There's just no reaction, nothing solid to indicate a hit except a declining health bar. Morrowind's combat system never convinced me I was doing anything more than trading numbers.

Nalano
10-11-2011, 10:18 PM
I see Wulf's living it up in the WIT comments, as usual saying anybody who likes the things he doesn't is a brainless, emotionless dolt.

Eh. His stuff basically boils down to "I feel strongly about this."

Interesting enough, Alec Meer points out that characters remain Bethesda's weak point.


Why do I get the feeling questioning RPG credentials is your equivalent of insinuating an inadequate penis size? My character's unconvincing fights remained the same whether he was fresh off the boat or had max skillpoints. There's just no reaction, nothing solid to indicate a hit except a declining health bar. Morrowind's combat system never convinced me I was doing anything more than trading numbers.

That reminds me: One of the more fundamental aspects of whether I like shooters is if I like how they depict shooting.

Like when you're convincing your brain to return to your head in New Vegas' Old World Blues: If you have a high enough gun skill, you can point out the joy of feeling the kick of automatic weapons.

BF3, to me, is great, partly due to their excellent soundscape and the 'suppressing' effect on enemy players. Of course, I also spent 94% of my 17 hours as Support. Dakka dakka dakka dakka dakka dakka

Wizardry
10-11-2011, 10:20 PM
I see Wulf's living it up in the WIT comments, as usual saying anybody who likes the things he doesn't is a brainless, emotionless dolt.
I don't quite get Wulf. I don't really understand what he wants in games. He seems to be claiming that Morrowind is the best thing ever and that everything else is dumbed down, but without giving any reason other than that Morrowind's game world is more unique and alien.

Wizardry
10-11-2011, 10:24 PM
Why do I get the feeling questioning RPG credentials is your equivalent of insinuating an inadequate penis size? My character's unconvincing fights remained the same whether he was fresh off the boat or had max skillpoints. There's just no reaction, nothing solid to indicate a hit except a declining health bar. Morrowind's combat system never convinced me I was doing anything more than trading numbers.
That's not the combat system. That's the animation. If enemies actually ran dodge animations upon you rolling for a miss, it would seem far more reactive. Bethesda realised this, but instead of adding in extra animation they decided to avoid this problem entirely by scrapping hit rolls, presumably to save on having to trigger dodge animations in order to synchronise the visuals with the underlying RPG system.

Serenegoose
10-11-2011, 10:30 PM
I don't quite get Wulf. I don't really understand what he wants in games. He seems to be claiming that Morrowind is the best thing ever and that everything else is dumbed down, but without giving any reason other than that Morrowind's game world is more unique and alien.

I think that's it really though - what Wulf wants is to be dumped in a weird, fantastical, alien world, and left to puddle around and explore things and immerse himself in the worldbuilding. Everything else seems to be secondary. Which I understand to a large extent. I think it's a shame that we have somehow seemingly irrevocably bound things like 'branching, significant character arcs/attempts at meaningful plots/immersive worldbuilding' into what most consider the 'RPG' genre, as if those things cannot exist separately, or even just as something we can take as a given in -most- genres.

Fiyenyaa
10-11-2011, 11:17 PM
Morrowind's combat system never convinced me I was doing anything more than trading numbers.

But don't you know that that's basically the best combat system ever devised? Who cares about things like weight, action, and satisfaction when you could be rolling virtual dice?
Jeez... It's almost like people have different standards when it comes to an RPG or something.

As has already been mentioned, I think first-person RPGs could learn alot (or at least please me) by ripping off the combat from Dark Messiah of Might and Magic. That was first-person melee combat done right.

Wizardry
10-11-2011, 11:19 PM
As has already been mentioned, I think first-person RPGs could learn alot (or at least please me) by ripping off the combat from Wizardry 8. That was first-person combat done right.
Couldn't agree more.

Fiyenyaa
11-11-2011, 12:41 AM
Couldn't agree more.

Hahaha, editing fun!
To be fair, I was considering doing that with one of your posts, so I won't try to hold too much e-highground.

I assume The Wizzardly Eight was some kind of menu-based fun (which to be fair I do like from time to time)? Sounds old.

IDtenT
11-11-2011, 12:44 AM
I'll be watching this develop. Maybe play a couple of hours of a friend's copy. I'm not overly optimistic since Oblivion bored me to death with its painfully boring world. I liked the adventure setting of Morrowind far more. In that sense I'm more optimistic about Amalur, even if it's a action game that transpires in segmented blocks rather than a true open world.

That said, I'd probably sink in a few hours and never actually do any main-line quests and enjoy it for the most part, but not for $60.

Fiyenyaa
11-11-2011, 01:08 AM
Oooh... currently doing the 1/3 steam-shuffle right now. I've already got DirectX installed, damnit!

Wizardry
11-11-2011, 01:09 AM
I assume The Wizzardly Eight was some kind of menu-based fun (which to be fair I do like from time to time)? Sounds old.
Old? Hardly. It came out in 2001 and was full 3D with continuous movement.

Drake Sigar
11-11-2011, 01:26 AM
It works! Now I have to go to bed...

FUUUUUUU-

Edgar The Peaceful
11-11-2011, 01:47 AM
30 minutes played. Crash to desktop. Awful animation. Standard cod voice acting. Strange skating around of horses and figures. Unskippable cutscenes even when you've watched it through. Can't say I'm impressed at all. Off to bed.

The JG Man
11-11-2011, 01:57 AM
So the pre-order I made with Amazon? Apparently it never existed. I was wondering why I never got a confirmation of the order e-mail. Anyhow, I've re-made the order and it went through, along with the confirmation e-mail. I hope I still get that damn map, I will be really slightly annoyed if I don't.

sopabuena
11-11-2011, 01:59 AM
So who esle is having trouble running this? Steam tells me the game is currently unavailable but I can run it from the .exe on the game's folder. But I can't run SkyrimLauncher.exe that should let me configure the game. Is it just me?

Spider Jerusalem
11-11-2011, 02:04 AM
been playing for the past few hours.

this interface. i can't handle it. the mouse doesn't even work in most menus. so clearly designed for an xbox360 pad that it's infuriating. save me, modders. save me.

jp0249107
11-11-2011, 02:32 AM
I was watching GiantBomb's livestream today and it was great. I get the feeling that I'm gonna have a great time with this game.

I'm not usually one to say that a platform is better than another. But I could see how much they had to cut back with the console versions in regards to visuals. The textures were a bit muddy and stretched sometimes. Not to mention his movement was so dang jerky using that awful gamepad.

Spider Jerusalem
11-11-2011, 02:34 AM
been playing for the past few hours.

this interface. i can't handle it. the mouse doesn't even work in most menus. so clearly designed for an xbox360 pad that it's infuriating. save me, modders. save me.
also the slow-mo kills from fo3 have to go.

arggggg.

TillEulenspiegel
11-11-2011, 03:04 AM
this interface. i can't handle it. the mouse doesn't even work in most menus. so clearly designed for an xbox360 pad that it's infuriating. save me, modders. save me.
My favorite part is that even though most of the interface works much better with the keyboard, you can't dismiss certain dialog boxes without using the mouse. Can't press enter, gotta click "OK". Just like Oblivion.

And I would bet actual money that, like Oblivion, you won't be able to fix that particular problem with modding.

Fiyenyaa
11-11-2011, 03:10 AM
Played about an hour and a half - really enjoyed it so far. It's Oblivion but prettier (and the optimisation has been done really well - it runs on High at a great framerate on my modest machine) more than anything else, but heck if that isn't good enough for me.
The interface is obviously designed for a pad, however, and that's the only real problem I've had so far (apart from some bloke shouting "I love a challenge!" as my sword went into his neck).

@ Wizardry: shows what I know I guess. I'll be honest - I'd never heard of the series at all before your posts on RPS mentioning them.

Wizardry
11-11-2011, 03:14 AM
@ Wizardry: shows what I know I guess. I'll be honest - I'd never heard of the series at all before your posts on RPS mentioning them.
Wizardry is the Doom of the RPG genre.

sinister agent
11-11-2011, 03:29 AM
If by better you mean as weightless and ineffectual as your own arguments, then yes. Often I said to myself "this is the best combat system since Rise of the Robots" as my character clumsily swatted at his enemies like a effeminate man with a deadly fear of butterflies.

I love you.



No game has had better fighting than pong


Pong's combat was rubbish. The best fighting was in Throw the Stick on the Campfire.

I am very tempted to buy this today. That's nothing like me. I never buy games on release. I hate you, RPS.

soldant
11-11-2011, 03:56 AM
Been playing a bit more. I agree with the others about the interface. I actually think it's better than Oblivion, but it's still pretty shit. This stupid Favourites menu is ridiculous, what was wrong with using the number keys? The new map screen is way better than in Oblivion though!

Apart from that though... it's different from what I'm used to, but I'm actually enjoying it. The world doesn't appear quite as big as in Oblivion but then again there seems to be more in it. Also I actually approve of them dropping all the attributes except for Magicka, Health and Stamina. It helps avoid the levelling problem that appeared in Oblivion. Combat feels better than in the previous games, especially magic, but I guess if you were a diehard Morrowind fan and hated the changes in Oblivion this won't help much.

The new characters make the game a lot better though. There's one sequence where an NPC is supposed to shout over the top of another and cut them off mid-speech, and the dialogue flows like it would in real life. That's a nice change from "I'm talking and you're going to talk over me abrupt en-" and the line stops mid-sentence before a short delay and the next line starting. It just flows really naturally.


To the guy who asked about Argonians: The TES Wiki has a picture, but basically they look much more reptilian and the skin has been completely changed to look a bit shinier. The skull structure also appears to have changed. The Khajit (sp?) now also look a lot more like cats. When I first saw them I did a double-take. The visual style has really been fixed up!

sinister agent
11-11-2011, 04:01 AM
The new characters make the game a lot better though. There's one sequence where an NPC is supposed to shout over the top of another and cut them off mid-speech, and the dialogue flows like it would in real life. That's a nice change from "I'm talking and you're going to talk over me abrupt en-" and the line stops mid-sentence before a short delay and the next line starting. It just flows really naturally.


That's good to hear. I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds that phenomenon really awkward and distracting. It's surprising how many games and even tv things get that wrong.

Anthile
11-11-2011, 06:26 AM
I actually wanted to try out Skyrim in the morning but then I was like "Well, I might as well try if it even runs". Well, it did. After doing the quintessential noob cave (which is mercifully short) I tried to go to bed but it didn't work out quite so well. Then this happened and now it's 6.25am:

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8042/2011111100003.jpg

Hensler
11-11-2011, 07:20 AM
I agree with all the complaints about the interface. But so far I've only had 1 glitch - a fox stuck in the river right outside the n00b cave, swim/running in circles - and 1 total freeze-up that required a hard reboot. So that makes it the best Day 1 release from Bethesda yet (though I guess there has already been a patch).

I love the game, my biggest is complaint is the marketing has convinced me I need to where that damned horned helm. Which covers up most of the fact I spent too long creating in the character creator.

The world feels so much more alive than Oblivion or the Fallouts did, pre-mods.

Bremze
11-11-2011, 08:40 AM
Didn't see this in the last few pages, but you can actually use the number keys as shortcuts. When in the 'Q' favorites menu, press a number key to assign it to the highlighted favorite.

Yes, there is a bunch of clipping, the interface is painful and the and the animations are "below average" up from Morrowind's and Oblivion's "amazingly horrid", but Skyrim has something that I felt was completely missing from Oblivion and what Morrowind had in bucketloads - atmosphere. It might be hype and I'll find lots of niggling faults(or huge glarring flaws like with Oblivion) with further play, but I really enjoyed the three hours I got in before noticing 3.5 hours of sleep is all I have left. It might be because I'm a huge advocate of substance over polish, but the clipping and stuff doesn't bother me. Except the slow-mo 3rd person takedowns, those can just fuck off.

Jockie
11-11-2011, 08:59 AM
At least I'm not the only person going into work this morning with a lack of sleep due to Skyrimmage (still an awful name!).

The way the mouse works with the interface is utterly stupid, but for me the 2nd last line of the Edge review is pretty much looking spot on - "The illusion frequently falters – and sometimes completely breaks – but when it does you'll want to conspire with the game to pretend you didn't see." Roll on 5pm.

Squiz
11-11-2011, 09:10 AM
...(apart from some bloke shouting "I love a challenge!" as my sword went into his neck).

Thank you for making me chuckle in the morning. :)

archonsod
11-11-2011, 10:37 AM
Only complaint I have so far is that character's appear to have some form of spine deformation which makes it incredibly hard for them to move their head on a vertical axis, but are perfectly fine on the horizontal one.

Dolphan
11-11-2011, 11:23 AM
Wizardry is the Doom of the RPG genre.

So what's the Wolfenstein 3D? Rogue?

Drake Sigar
11-11-2011, 11:36 AM
Would a Khajiit owning a dog be too ironic?

As always with a Bethesda game, it's the little things that bother me. Like why is my walking speed too slow to keep up with an NPC's walking speed, yet my running speed too fast for their running speed?

I saw fishies! They were leaping pretty high, I almost forgot you can wade in and catch them. My brain is still stuck on the idea that video game scenery can't be touched or interacted with. Stupid brain.

Stevo
11-11-2011, 11:40 AM
Just remember if your going to kill a towns chickens prepare to meet the consequences!

Squiz
11-11-2011, 11:43 AM
Just remember if your going to kill a towns chickens prepare to meet the consequences!Poor old Link. They never found his body.

Bremze
11-11-2011, 11:58 AM
As always with a Bethesda game, it's the little things that bother me. Like why is my walking speed too slow to keep up with an NPC's walking speed, yet my running speed too fast for their running speed?


Because otherwise NPC's would dash ahead of you in mad glee with no way to catch up or just be mindbogglingly slow.

agentorange
11-11-2011, 12:03 PM
Because otherwise NPC's would dash ahead of you in mad glee with no way to catch up or just be mindbogglingly slow.

Or they could just be...the same speed speed as the character? Hmm? No?

Anthile
11-11-2011, 12:05 PM
As always with a Bethesda game, it's the little things that bother me. Like why is my walking speed too slow to keep up with an NPC's walking speed, yet my running speed too fast for their running speed?


Invisible rollerskates.

Vexing Vision
11-11-2011, 12:09 PM
I loved the adjustable riding speed in Red Dead Redemption. That was so very well done, but I have yet to see a similar solution in another game.

thegooseking
11-11-2011, 12:18 PM
I disagree with all the complaints about the interface. I played it both with mouse/keyboard and with a pad, and it's bad with both, but that's hardly new for TES. So enough of your "obviously designed for a pad" nonsense. The same complaint was made about Oblivion, and was equally wrong then. Morrowind's interface was hardly wonderful, either. The interface is not great, but blaming that on 'consolitis' is just wrong.

Everyone knows I hate the phrase 'dumbing-down', but let's just say I dislike the "arrow goes where you point" archery mechanic rather than the "aim slightly above your target to account for gravity" of Oblivion. I missed quite a few times because I was trying to be smarter than the game wanted me to be. That was frustrating.

But that's pretty much my only complaint so far. Except the obvious technical issues. I got one bug last night when I got stuck in dialogue and had to quit - the exit dialogue buttons just wouldn't work, although all the other dialogue controls did. And the fact that my GT 240 is barely up to the task, but I was thinking about getting a new card fairly soon anyway.


Only complaint I have so far is that character's appear to have some form of spine deformation which makes it incredibly hard for them to move their head on a vertical axis, but are perfectly fine on the horizontal one.

I did have a problem with that, but after a couple of hours I kind of got used to it and it wasn't so bad. I don't know what's with the incredibly low default mouse sensitivity, though. It's not really a complaint, since the option is there to change it, but I don't know why they would think most people would want it that low.

Dugular
11-11-2011, 12:28 PM
The interface is not great, but blaming that on 'consolitis' is just wrong.

...

I don't know what's with the incredibly low default mouse sensitivity, though. It's not really a complaint, since the option is there to change it, but I don't know why they would think most people would want it that low.

That's consolitis.

thegooseking
11-11-2011, 12:31 PM
That's consolitis.

No it's not. I played it with mouse/keyboard and pad, remember? The mouse sensitivity and analogue stick sensitivity are independent. (Although it only shows one option for sensitivity, it's the option for the device you're currently using, and switching back to the other device will go back to the sensitivity you were using for that device.)

Dugular
11-11-2011, 12:36 PM
Didn't see this in the last few pages, but you can actually use the number keys as shortcuts. When in the 'Q' favorites menu, press a number key to assign it to the highlighted favorite.

Yes, there is a bunch of clipping, the interface is painful and the and the animations are "below average" up from Morrowind's and Oblivion's "amazingly horrid", but Skyrim has something that I felt was completely missing from Oblivion and what Morrowind had in bucketloads - atmosphere. It might be hype and I'll find lots of niggling faults(or huge glarring flaws like with Oblivion) with further play, but I really enjoyed the three hours I got in before noticing 3.5 hours of sleep is all I have left. It might be because I'm a huge advocate of substance over polish, but the clipping and stuff doesn't bother me. Except the slow-mo 3rd person takedowns, those can just fuck off.

I love you. Those shortcuts will help!

And the 3rd person 'fatalities'. Agreed

Dugular
11-11-2011, 12:38 PM
No it's not. I played it with mouse/keyboard and pad, remember? The mouse sensitivity and analogue stick sensitivity are independent. (Although it only shows one option for sensitivity, it's the option for the device you're currently using, and switching back to the other device will go back to the sensitivity you were using for that device.)

You're right, actually. I just wanted to use the new word you gave me.

Bremze
11-11-2011, 12:44 PM
Or they could just be...the same speed speed as the character? Hmm? No?
See 1. NPC's running at the same speed as you makes it impossible to keep up if you are not looking for shortcuts constantly. Seeing a chest off the path meters away would make you choose between getting the loot or staying with the NPC, because you can't catch up with him.

Dugular
11-11-2011, 12:55 PM
See 1. NPC's running at the same speed as you makes it impossible to keep up if you are not looking for shortcuts constantly. Seeing a chest off the path meters away would make you choose between getting the loot or staying with the NPC, because you can't catch up with him.

Your game design skills have increased. You should rest and meditate on what you have learned.

Malawi Frontier Guard
11-11-2011, 12:56 PM
Here's a funny video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt5aUdijAN8

IDtenT
11-11-2011, 01:25 PM
Everyone knows I hate the phrase 'dumbing-down', but let's just say I dislike the "arrow goes where you point" archery mechanic rather than the "aim slightly above your target to account for gravity" of Oblivion. I missed quite a few times because I was trying to be smarter than the game wanted me to be. That was frustrating.
Oh my God. That is epically terrible.

TillEulenspiegel
11-11-2011, 01:40 PM
See 1. NPC's running at the same speed as you makes it impossible to keep up if you are not looking for shortcuts constantly. Seeing a chest off the path meters away would make you choose between getting the loot or staying with the NPC, because you can't catch up with him.
Not at all. Simple enough to do rubberbanding - if player is not within a few meters, slow down or speed up. Stop if they're too far behind.

TillEulenspiegel
11-11-2011, 01:41 PM
I disagree with all the complaints about the interface. I played it both with mouse/keyboard and with a pad, and it's bad with both, but that's hardly new for TES. So enough of your "obviously designed for a pad" nonsense.
If you can't tell the difference between an interface designed for a gamepad/keyboard and one designed for a mouse, I really don't know what to say.

A pointing device lets you design more powerful types of interfaces. A gamepad limits you. Both console and PC got a very limited, menu-driven interface designed for a limited controller. It's the same old story - we all get lowest common denominator mediocrity, rather than something specifically designed to take advantage of the tools at hand.

soldant
11-11-2011, 02:40 PM
The major issue I have with the interface is that it occasionally seems to swap between mouse and keyboard control, causing some of the UI elements to jump around a lot.

EDIT: Not sure if anyone else has posted this yet, but here are some useful options in SkyrimPrefs.ini (found in Skyrim folder).

iPresentInterval=0 //Sets VSync off
bMouseAcceleration=0 //Bakes sweetrolls. Alternatively, turns off mouse acceleration.

Finally, adding "fdefaultfov=##" to the end of the [General] block and inputting a number for ## will allow you to modify the FOV.

Drake Sigar
11-11-2011, 02:50 PM
Here's a funny video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt5aUdijAN8
She's looking a little PAIL! Mwhahaha.

DigitalSignalX
11-11-2011, 02:54 PM
It's totally made for a controller IMO. The fact that I couldn't even get a mouse cursor to appear without completely unplugging my 360 pad (not just disabling in hardware manager) is illuminating. It's not as bad as it could be though, Two Worlds II had a worse UI by miles and that was also obviously made for controllers.

That stealing video is epic hilarious. I must try that now.

thegooseking
11-11-2011, 03:00 PM
If you can't tell the difference between an interface designed for a gamepad/keyboard and one designed for a mouse, I really don't know what to say.

Oh, I know the difference between a mouse-driven and pad-driven interface. What I'm saying is it's bad on both. In fact, the only input device I can imagine being good for the interface is a touchscreen... But, actually, a touchscreen would be really good for the interface. Oh my. If you could play the game proper on your monitor, but have a tablet PC linked up to take care of the menus, that would be something special.

So I wouldn't be surprised if the interface design was driven by aesthetic decisions (after all, touchscreens are cool) rather than functional decisions ("hey, we should make it for a console interface").


It's totally made for a controller IMO. The fact that I couldn't even get a mouse cursor to appear without completely unplugging my 360 pad (not just disabling in hardware manager) is illuminating.

You couldn't get it to appear just by switching off Xbox 360 Controller in the game's options menu? That worked for me.

Kadayi
11-11-2011, 03:03 PM
*watches vid*

OMG, that's pretty hilarious.

*notes to always carry a large bucket in inventory*

meloncrab
11-11-2011, 03:04 PM
[..]If you could play the game proper on your monitor, but have a tablet PC linked up to take care of the menus, that would be something special.[..]


That sounds a lot like the Wii U.

thegooseking
11-11-2011, 03:08 PM
That sounds a lot like the Wii U.

My brother tells me you can do it with a PS3 and PSP combination (although the PSP isn't touchscreen, of course).

So I guess that is kind of 'consoley'. But I wouldn't call it one of the bad features of consoles.

Althea
11-11-2011, 03:18 PM
It's totally made for a controller IMO. The fact that I couldn't even get a mouse cursor to appear without completely unplugging my 360 pad (not just disabling in hardware manager) is illuminating.
I'm not sure about the disabling thingy, but that's a common thing with Games for Windows games. I know Fallout: New Vegas was like that, although some (GTA IV, Fable 3, Batman) do have some very good on-the-fly detection going on.

archonsod
11-11-2011, 03:35 PM
My favourite stealing trick at the moment is metal laundering. Swipe metal ingots, craft weapon or improve existing weapon, sell weapon back to the smith you stole the ingot from. Once I've got my forging skill high enough I think I'll go into serious crime - food laundering.

BobsLawnService
11-11-2011, 03:49 PM
150mb on my crappy connection and I get to set foot in Skyrim. W00t and suchlike.

Hensler
11-11-2011, 04:33 PM
I love this game.

G915
11-11-2011, 04:45 PM
I really don't have the energy to read through a 34 page thread so apologies if this was already asked (and answered) but how can this game be only 5.7GB on steam?

Althea
11-11-2011, 04:47 PM
I really don't have the energy to read through a 34 page thread so apologies if this was already asked (and answered) but how can this game be only 5.7GB on steam?
Improved compression techniques.

G915
11-11-2011, 04:51 PM
Improved compression techniques.

Thanks for the answer, I hope more games implement this thing, downloading 18 GB games can be a little painful with my old 4 Mbit line.

apricotsoup
11-11-2011, 04:54 PM
Aye, will have to wait a few hours to see the quality but that is a tiny size for what I hope to be decent texture resolutions and the rest of it.

Althea
11-11-2011, 04:56 PM
Thanks for the answer, I hope more games implement this thing, downloading 18 GB games can be a little painful with my old 4 Mbit line.
There's a few other things they've done, too. Instead of Oblivion's two-piece armour (i.e. cuirass and legs), they've gone for a near-Fallout system and instead armour is gloves, body, feet and head. That apparently helps improve performance, but it'll also help tidy up one's interface and give better looking sets of armour.

Icarus
11-11-2011, 05:59 PM
I wish I could contribute to this thread, but Asda are useless and didn't deliver my preorder yet :( Despite their reassuring me yesterday that it would be here on time, I've had an email from them saying it won't be here until tomorrow. Anyone else in the same boat?

Fiyenyaa
11-11-2011, 06:04 PM
You couldn't get it to appear just by switching off Xbox 360 Controller in the game's options menu? That worked for me.

That worked for me.

Wizardry
11-11-2011, 06:13 PM
So what's the Wolfenstein 3D? Rogue?
Don Daglow's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Daglow) 1975 RPG Dungeon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_(video_game)) for the PDP-10.

Wizardry
11-11-2011, 06:26 PM
See 1. NPC's running at the same speed as you makes it impossible to keep up if you are not looking for shortcuts constantly. Seeing a chest off the path meters away would make you choose between getting the loot or staying with the NPC, because you can't catch up with him.
But this fundamentally prevents NPCs/enemies from running away from the you. Why is it fair for you to be able to run from enemies but for enemies not to be able to run from you? It's a broken one way system. The game should have a level of consistency.

Do you know if wounded enemies move slower in Skyrim?

BobsLawnService
11-11-2011, 06:29 PM
Wow, the intro is even worse than Oblivion but now that I am out it's getting better. Also the graphics defaulted to medium on my 9600gt and I've cranked the view distances up to max and it looks gorgeous. It is almost intimidating how open it feels.

KauhuK
11-11-2011, 06:44 PM
The intro section is quite bad but after that it gets a lot better. Looking good enough and playing nicely. The UI is quite horrible. Overall I'm liking it for now.

BobsLawnService
11-11-2011, 07:13 PM
Yep, I'm really enjoying it. I've decided to follow the main plot for a bit and then finding my own path. I think that it justifies my anticipation.

GO BUY IT IF YOU HAVEN'T ALREADY!

Squiz
11-11-2011, 07:38 PM
@Bob: I'd like to but the game is just too expensive for my tastes at the moment.

Jajusha
11-11-2011, 07:39 PM
A bit unhappy with the inventory management, particularly for armor. I should have tabs for "feet, legs, chest, hands and head". Right now, it's a clunky mess.

On the other hand WHOOOOT dragons and all that stuff.

KauhuK
11-11-2011, 07:53 PM
Have you noticed this?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXgF_IDpFNI

I have it and it is very disturbing. Maybe it's because of tweaked .ini files but I doupt.

lasikbear
11-11-2011, 07:53 PM
Anyone know if its possible to see your character in the item menu? So you can say, 'hey, those boots I just put on look great!'

Have only played maybe 45 mins last night, so forgive me if its something obvious.

BobsLawnService
11-11-2011, 07:58 PM
@Bob: I'd like to but the game is just too expensive for my tastes at the moment.

I can relate to that. Skyrim is the first full price game I've bought in a long time. The game isn't going to get worse so put some cash away for a month or so and buy it when you can. I suspect it is going to monopolise my gaming time for a long while.

Squiz
11-11-2011, 08:09 PM
The problem with waiting is that the spoiler risk increases as a function of the amount that the price decreases... or something. ;)

DigitalSignalX
11-11-2011, 08:31 PM
Have you noticed this?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXgF_IDpFNI

I have it and it is very disturbing. Maybe it's because of tweaked .ini files but I doupt.

I have all settings maxed on my ATI, and the flash is subtle, but there. It's not rage inducing though, and I imagine a fix is pending since it seems like Nvidia cards are experiencing it too.

thegooseking
11-11-2011, 08:37 PM
I like some of the little touches. I dropped a worthless jug in Whiterum, and an old lady picked it up and gave it back to me, saying, "I think you mislaid this, dearie." The pompous guy didn't do that, though. He just complained about littering. The world definitely feels a lot more 'alive' than Oblivion's.

Also, it's kind of weird, but I really like the children. Children in games are often done very poorly (and especially by Bethesda, in Fallout 3), but the kids in Skyrim are great. I played hide-and-seek with them. Which wasn't really fair, given that I'm going for a stealth build.

Unfortunately, the storytelling kind of suffers from awkward pacing, since it's an Elder Scrolls game, and you might have several narrative threads going on at once. I headed out to Falkreath to deal with a minor Spriggan problem for the Companions, but on arriving at Falkreath, found myself in the middle of a dramatic dragon battle. That kind of ruined the flow of the Spriggan story.

archonsod
11-11-2011, 09:41 PM
The world definitely feels a lot more 'alive' than Oblivion's.


It's a little too alive tbh. Wandering back towards Whiterun after doing a quest, it's half one in the morning. The road is packed with farmers.

Edgar The Peaceful
11-11-2011, 09:44 PM
Ok. My initial disappointment with the clunky intro is ebbing away. I like the grey and muted green palette. Have enjoyed watching some incidental faction battles. The perk system is intriguing and moreish.

Has anyone had any trouble with missing textures? I suddenly lost some armour textures and you could see the luminous purple mesh instead. As you can imagine this broke the immersion.

I like.

Wizardry
11-11-2011, 09:47 PM
It's a little too alive tbh. Wandering back towards Whiterun after doing a quest, it's half one in the morning. The road is packed with farmers.
Radiant AI's radiance is strong enough to illuminate the seemingly impenetrable blackness of Tamriel's night. To the NPCs under its spell there is no night and day.

Well, that and glowing sheep. Does it have those?

Utnac
11-11-2011, 09:54 PM
wow... game's brilliant, that is all xD

Hensler
11-11-2011, 10:00 PM
I didn't really have a problem with the intro. I thought the Dragon wrecking everybody's shit was pretty cool.

Edgar The Peaceful
11-11-2011, 10:04 PM
My problem with the intro wasn't so much the story, but with the fact that it displayed the game's faults immediately - a horse sliding around like it was on rails, some crappy voice acting - even before it had showed its glorious bits. But, as I say, I'm enjoying it now.

archonsod
11-11-2011, 11:26 PM
I think the main improvement was that the intro was entirely scripted. If this had been Oblivion / Morrowind, the execution would have been interrupted by some old geezer wandering up and engaging the executioner in a conversation about mudcrabs. Which would certainly make for a less dramatic escape. Not to mention the poor guy who did get beheaded would probably have been forced to listen to a six minute monologue about how one of the executioner's neighbours houses smells bad.

Wizardry
11-11-2011, 11:31 PM
I think the main improvement was that the intro was entirely scripted.
Does not compute.

agentorange
11-11-2011, 11:39 PM
Does not compute.

At the very least it's better than giving a shoddy illusion of freedom, whilst still being completely scripted and unskippable, and far too long, like the intro of Oblivion.

Wizardry
11-11-2011, 11:42 PM
At the very least it's better than giving a shoddy illusion of freedom, whilst still being completely scripted and unskippable, and far too long, like the intro of Oblivion.
Best possible way to start an open world game? Let you click somewhere on the map and dump you down on that spot. Perhaps add a "random location" button for usability.

Serenegoose
12-11-2011, 12:08 AM
Best possible way to start an open world game? Let you click somewhere on the map and dump you down on that spot. Perhaps add a "random location" button for usability.

Does that really work, however? Not that I'm against to this idea in principle, it sounds like it is very interesting - but if you're going to offer a plot inside the open world to also be explored, would allowing the player to say, begin their adventure in the final encounter room be the best choice? I'm all for letting players spawn in bandit camps and so on to learn the errors of their choices, but it seems to be there may be some balance needing struck for more plot sensitive locations. I suppose you could simply bookmark a few good starting choices and if the player wishes to do that to themselves they are free to.

At the very least in games like an oblivion, 'skip this bit and let me -play-' would be a first step, and it frustrates me they don't allow for it.

Jeremy
12-11-2011, 12:20 AM
Best possible way to start an open world game? Let you click somewhere on the map and dump you down on that spot. Perhaps add a "random location" button for usability.

I would like even a little bit of character story creation added into that. Who am I in relation to where I am on the map? Traveler? Farmer? Mercenary? Student? Granted, that probably wouldn't be up your alley, but I like the idea of being able to play any kind of character in an open world. Am I a farmer turned merchant? A guardsman that turned to a life of crime? Just some chump that's been stuck in a backwater village for the last 20 years? Those kinds of things add value in my experience when playing any game, RPG or not.

Wizardry
12-11-2011, 12:22 AM
Does that really work, however? Not that I'm against to this idea in principle, it sounds like it is very interesting - but if you're going to offer a plot inside the open world to also be explored, would allowing the player to say, begin their adventure in the final encounter room be the best choice? I'm all for letting players spawn in bandit camps and so on to learn the errors of their choices, but it seems to be there may be some balance needing struck for more plot sensitive locations. I suppose you could simply bookmark a few good starting choices and if the player wishes to do that to themselves they are free to.

At the very least in games like an oblivion, 'skip this bit and let me -play-' would be a first step, and it frustrates me they don't allow for it.
Well, technically you are correct if the game plays out so that the important plot locations are scattered around the open world ready for you to wander in on your travels. But if those locations open up through the main quest then you don't have to worry about accidentally stumbling into them, because you won't be able to at the start of the game.

But my point is that in open world games it's best for the player to discover the main quest for themselves. Perhaps a player stumbles into a village and hears a rumour about some occult group working from inside a dungeon nearby. Upon investigating the dungeon the player finds notes linking the occult group to the head of a wealthy and powerful merchant family operating in the heart of the capital city, with connections to the regional leaders. Alternatively, the player could walk through the gates of the largest city within the first minute of play, allowing him/her to stumble upon the main quest in another way through secret investigative missions given out by the leader of the town guard, or through sabotage quests given out by rival merchant groups, or perhaps through "accidentally" acquiring jobs from the "evil" merchant group themselves (before you realise what's going on).

There's plenty of ways to go about it without having a scripted linear starting sequence.


I would like even a little bit of character story creation added into that. Who am I in relation to where I am on the map? Traveler? Farmer? Mercenary? Student? Granted, that probably wouldn't be up your alley, but I like the idea of being able to play any kind of character in an open world. Am I a farmer turned merchant? A guardsman that turned to a life of crime? Just some chump that's been stuck in a backwater village for the last 20 years? Those kinds of things add value in my experience when playing any game, RPG or not.
Sure! You can do that. A number of RPGs allow you to select various character backgrounds to influence gameplay (and perhaps even your starting statistics). You could choose between being a farmer from village X, a merchant from family Y operating in city Z, a lumberjack living on his own out in the forest etc. Each one of those can start you off in a difference place, allowing you to discover the game's plot as you go about exploring the game world as above.

Perhaps your character's background can play a direct role in which ways you can stumble across the main quest. Perhaps each of the entries into the main quest line could require minimum skills. The merchant quests could require a certain mercantile skill level. The city guard quests could require a certain combat skill level. Learning rumours about the occult group working out of a nearby dungeon could require a certain speech skill level. Then, if your background affects your starting statistics (a lumberjack may be better at combat than a merchant), your background would aid in influencing how you experience the game, without actually cutting you off from content.

Harlander
12-11-2011, 12:33 AM
Re: bucket-based larceny

That is...

Other than being hilarious, I really wouldn't expect that to work. I'll have to try that..

Odd that it models the blindness caused by having a bucket on your head, but not the irritation that would result.

I find myself indulging in a kind of willing suspension of disbelief, a maintenance of kayfabe where, knowing at the weak spots of the simulation, I won't poke at them, in order to maintain immersion.

Anyone else take that kind of tack?

Drake Sigar
12-11-2011, 12:51 AM
Rosh motherchuggin' Penin. His official role in Skyrim is 'additional voices' which apparently counts for a large slice of the game's population.

I found the Brotherhood!

I would like even a little bit of character story creation added into that. Who am I in relation to where I am on the map? Traveler? Farmer? Mercenary? Student? Granted, that probably wouldn't be up your alley, but I like the idea of being able to play any kind of character in an open world. Am I a farmer turned merchant? A guardsman that turned to a life of crime? Just some chump that's been stuck in a backwater village for the last 20 years? Those kinds of things add value in my experience when playing any game, RPG or not.
Just copy & paste the entire intro of Mount & Blade. Nobody gives a damn about the main quest anyway.

Edgar The Peaceful
12-11-2011, 12:54 AM
Just played a side quest through - 'walking nightmare'- and it was truly dreadful. The exposition was so garbled it was hard to know what was going on. Then, right at the denouement, the quest character bugged into a stationary combat stance and wouldn't finish the quest. I had to leave whole quest area and return to spark him to life. This quest was shoddy, garbled, and unfinished.

The game really veers around from exquisite to awful.

deano2099
12-11-2011, 01:00 AM
But my point is that in open world games it's best for the player to discover the main quest for themselves.

Some people don't like that though. Some people want something that will ease them in to the open world, and without it you risk alienating those people. That said, someone will mod it out soon enough.

Serenegoose
12-11-2011, 01:08 AM
Some people don't like that though. Some people want something that will ease them in to the open world, and without it you risk alienating those people. That said, someone will mod it out soon enough.

I think 'introducing you into the world' and 'ham fistedly forcing the main quest at you from minute one' need not be the same thing.

sabrage
12-11-2011, 01:09 AM
God you guys complain a lot. This game is great.

TillEulenspiegel
12-11-2011, 02:02 AM
I find myself indulging in a kind of willing suspension of disbelief, a maintenance of kayfabe where, knowing at the weak spots of the simulation, I won't poke at them, in order to maintain immersion.
I can't quite do it. The dialogue is just a mess - from NPCs spouting random lines of dialogue at inopportune moments (ALL THE TIME!), to the glaring lack of context (eg, telling me to go see another NPC when he's sitting right next to you).

I'll abuse the uncanny valley metaphor, because it's similar. Once things have reached a certain level of realism, the remaining flaws really stand out. You expect these little computer men to act a bit like minimally intelligent humans, but they really really don't. They're constantly reminding you that they're just extremely simple bots. The first problem isn't even that difficult to solve - if there's a semi-cutscene going on, tell other surrounding NPCs to shut the hell up.

I don't think full voice acting will ever be a workable solution for anything but scripted, linear games. Text is much more powerful, able to account for any number of situations and be adjusted accordingly on the fly.

Smashbox
12-11-2011, 02:05 AM
Yes - A+ I have already played an alarming amount. I.e. a large percentage of the game's released hours.

DigitalSignalX
12-11-2011, 02:15 AM
I've gotten my first CTD about 12 hours in, seemed random. Only other issue was I started a quest from someone with the dialog "I over heard your argument..." when I hadn't. Then I was wandering by 10 minutes later and heard the argument in question.

thegooseking
12-11-2011, 02:24 AM
Well, there are three ways to introduce people to the world. There's scripted (like Skyrim and a lot of modern games do), there's pseudo-scripting by narrowing the scope (like Oblivion did), and there's blunt exposition, where you present information to the player "out of character" as it were (seems to be favoured by older games, especially back when people actually read manuals, but might also take the form of an opening video or text-scroll).

Blunt exposition has been dismissed in proper drama for a while. Ok, longer than that: it was Horace just before the big B.C./A.D. switchover who encouraged drama starting in medias res rather than ab ovo, but the earlier Aristotle had other ideas and more fans. He was basically the Call of Duty of his day. Aristotle's ideas persisted at least until the 19th century, when Gustav Freytag, who was basically an Aristotle tribute act, said that plays should begin with an exposition phase.

In the 1940s, Hungarian-born Lajos Egri, whom we might consider the Johnny Rotten of drama, said that exposition is boring, and that spectators should learn everything they need to know from the action. Everyone celebrated and started writing plays without tedious openings.

In 1995, though, Ernest Adams was talking about gaming as "The New Hollywood" (or rather, talking about the dissimilarities between games and movies) and one point he made was what he called The Problem of Amnesia: the player doesn't know anything about the game world, but the player has a certain degree of responsibility to act in-role, and so there are things the player must know. Broadly speaking, there's an incongruity between what the player knows and what the player character is presumed to know, which plays all manner of hell with the concept of agency and, yes, role-playing.

So what do you do? Either give in and provide blunt exposition, causing Lajos Egri to spin in his grave and Horace to cry (but getting a thumbs-up from Gusty and Arry); or you provide the information in a scripted sequence, ensuring it's delivered as you want it; or you narrow the scope of the player's interactions so that it's more likely they'll stumble across the exposition (which is less controlled and has a lower guarantee of quality, but gives the player more agency up front).

I wouldn't presume to say which of those is the best -- honestly I think it depends on the nature of the game and on the story of the game -- but I think any of them's better than just dumping the player in the world and telling them to get on with it. In any case, I think openness is something that has to be meted out relatively gradually.

Wizardry
12-11-2011, 02:35 AM
But there's constant exposition throughout the game. Why have a scripted beginning, an open middle and a scripted ending? There's a lack of consistency there. If you've got an open world game you need an open beginning and an open ending for it not to feel like something linear with a bit of space to do some side quests. If you want to heavily script sections then just go to BioWare route and dump the RPG elements.

soldant
12-11-2011, 02:48 AM
I've gotten my first CTD about 12 hours in, seemed random. Only other issue was I started a quest from someone with the dialog "I over heard your argument..." when I hadn't. Then I was wandering by 10 minutes later and heard the argument in question.

I've found a reproducable crash near an Imperial camp. There's a bandit nearby, and if they die, the game crashes. No idea why.

Keep
12-11-2011, 03:53 AM
So what do you do?

Isn't it obvious? Set every RPG in a D&D-inspired Tolkienesque universe with an implied moral order in the background and a Big Bad Threat needing to be resolved.

Duh.

agentorange
12-11-2011, 03:57 AM
Isn't it obvious? Set every RPG in a D&D-inspired Tolkienesque universe with an implied moral order in the background and a Big Bad Threat needing to be resolved.

Duh.

Fallout mostly does what Wizardry is talking about, and as far as I remember there were no elves or dwarves prancing around.

Keep
12-11-2011, 04:03 AM
Fallout mostly does what Wizardry is talking about, and as far as I remember there were no elves or dwarves prancing around.

A fair point.

Hensler
12-11-2011, 04:35 AM
Odd that it models the blindness caused by having a bucket on your head, but not the irritation that would result.



With my limited game design knowledge, I'm guessing it models line of sight for NPC's detecting you. So anything that blocks their view would let you steal from them, buckets are just the easiest things to use.

Wizardry
12-11-2011, 04:39 AM
With my limited game design knowledge, I'm guessing it models line of sight for NPC's detecting you. So anything that blocks their view would let you steal from them, buckets are just the easiest things to use.
Yep. Probably a simple ray cast from a point in the centre of their head (or specifically between their two eyes). It's just as computationally expensive as a ray cast from the centre of their body, or their feet, or 10 metres above them. The only reason this problem has shown up is down to being able to put pots over the heads of NPCs. The game seems to have far better collision meshes this time as you could hardly do anything with pots (or specifically concave objects) in Oblivion.

redspielened
12-11-2011, 04:40 AM
Well, it seems to me that it's a beautiful work, I like to run around and just explore, see the world, it's very well done visually. But the combat itself is horrendous, I'm not sure I'll play it past the "let's see what's happening in this world" phase. I'm also enticed by the Empire faction, been re-reading Livy these past few days, plus there's always been some sort of attraction to all things ancient.

If I think about it though, my favorite game didn't have that good of a combat system either, but it was quite smooth. It's enjoyable though, haven't played an immersive RPG since DA2.

Hensler
12-11-2011, 05:33 AM
I'm hoping for a perk or power-up at some point that let's me use my god powers more than once a day.

Wooly Wugga Wugga
12-11-2011, 05:55 AM
I haven't been disappointed. I even thought that the intro provided some much needed context to the game.

There are a few tiny glitches here and there due to the nature of the world but they're inconsequential when you take into account the massive scale and complexity of the world. Little things like a bard singing a ballade about imperial soldiers fighting and dying for a far-off province of the empire they don't really care about add so much flavour to the world. Also you can't complain about the writing since the world is just so full and alive with characters to talk to.

I'm hooked and have a very real sense of playing something special. Certainly, Skyrim is the most complex and detailed game world I've ever had the pleasure of experiencing - and it is a tremendous pleasure.

BobsLawnService
12-11-2011, 10:13 AM
Ok, I have my first major gripe. There are no red squirrels in skyrim. This shall not stand. Bethesda - what the hell were you thinking? Modders - get to it!

Batolemaeus
12-11-2011, 10:51 AM
Whoever designed this abomination of a UI needs to have his bones broken one by one by beating them with a usability handbook.
And then forced to use it without a single unbroken bone in their body.

Wolfenswan
12-11-2011, 12:23 PM
Whoever designed this abomination of a UI needs to have his bones broken one by one by beating them with a usability handbook.
And then forced to use it without a single unbroken bone in their body.

I.... I don't mind it? It's a bit annoying that there's no PC mannequin but apart from that it's sleek, quick and efficient.



So far I love it far more than I expected to do. I have a knack for boring, down on earth European (pre)medieval fantasy and so far it delivers on that field. I'm sure there's more fantastic stuff hidden but I love the tundras and caves. I agree with the combat being a bit weird/annoying at times - especially against human opponents - but it works splendid against most non-humans. I bested my first giant in melee the other day after dodging his blows for minutes and it felt amazing.

I've found that a few skills level too fast or too slow (the armor skills being as always the slowest of the slow). I got pickpocketing from 10 to 50 in maybe 15-25 minutes by robbing the first questhub dry.

archonsod
12-11-2011, 12:56 PM
I.... I don't mind it? It's a bit annoying that there's no PC mannequin but apart from that it's sleek, quick and efficient.

I actually prefer it for that reason.

strange headache
12-11-2011, 01:56 PM
Just a quick question, can you join multiple factions?

***Minor Spoilers***
I know that Stormcloaks and Imperial are mutually exclusive, but what about the companions, the college and dark brotherhood? Will joining one of these exclude you from the others?

Batolemaeus
12-11-2011, 03:13 PM
I.... I don't mind it? It's a bit annoying that there's no PC mannequin but apart from that it's sleek, quick and efficient.


It is none of these things.

It's not sleek. It wastes space on eyecandy, has tons of wasted space for nothing. It's only thin on content.

Neither it is quick. Changing weapons takes more time than in an unmodded Fallout 3. Quickly assessing which quest leads where takes longer than in Oblivion.

Neither is it efficient. Just trying to get an overview of what each perk does involves awkwardly trying to navigate a menu that quite obviously was never meant to be navigated by anyone. Just as awkward is trying to get a quick overview of different armor or weapon stats. Even an unmodded Oblivion UI made this easier.


I don't get it. A lot of effort went into skyrim. The people who managed to get such impressive effects and lighting done on such limited resources deserve a medal. There's some serious worldbuilding in there. When I look at some of the stuff they did with a small budget in texture resolution and polycount, I'm in awe.

Then i have to open the UI. Dwarf Fortress has more consistency and a well thought out design in comparison.

Also, when I assign a spell to my right hand, my left mouse button will activate it. I electrocuted a person I was trying to heal because of it. I know it comes from the ancient "press left mouse button to attack, but character is right handed", but come on..

psyk
12-11-2011, 03:17 PM
"Best possible way to start an open world game? Let you click somewhere on the map and dump you down on that spot. Perhaps add a "random location" button for usability."

So your all for enemies that lvl with you or a game that requires a lot of restarting (making the choice of where to start pointless) and basically making it a difficulty slider for the start of the game.


@Sabrage I think it's because they don't actually enjoy playing games anymore and instead of realizing that it might be best to move on like so many people find with things they used to like they stay stuck in this rose tinted hell where they hate everything released and just find joy in posting about what is annoying them.

JackShandy
12-11-2011, 03:21 PM
I.... I don't mind it? It's a bit annoying that there's no PC mannequin but apart from that it's sleek, quick and efficient.

I don't know anything about usability (Except that mapping your left hand to the right mouse button is fucking insane), but it seems like they didn't test it on PC at all. Here's one example:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/615805-the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim/60953745

You can't rebind the keys used in menus; but if you rebind a key that's used in-game and in the menu (Like F) it'll change the menu key as well. Without telling you. The UI will still say "Press F to favourite" when you should be pressing whatever other key you've changed it to. This really isn't a hard thing to discover and change.

I've had a bunch of technical gripes like that - keeps crashing to desktop - but otherwise I'm hooked. It's much, much better at feeling real than Oblivion or Morrowind, no matter what Till says. Just the little touches - when I rent a room in an inn, the lady gets up and shows me to it. When a guy is close to death they'll fall down panting and begging for their life. When you're riding your horse, elks can come up and run along beside you.

Serenegoose
12-11-2011, 03:22 PM
"Best possible way to start an open world game? Let you click somewhere on the map and dump you down on that spot. Perhaps add a "random location" button for usability."

So your all for enemies that lvl with you or a game that requires a lot of restarting (making the choice of where to start pointless) and basically making it a difficulty slider for the start of the game.

Most enemies in any decent overworld ought to be mooks. It's the segregated zones - your volcanic lairs, evil castles, bastions of terror and what have you - that ought to contain the threats. Most wildlife or bandits or whatever can be safely assumed to gravitate to a specific point the world over, with the odd spikes - a bear in north america isn't vastly more dangerous than a bear in siberia - a boar in Algeria isn't much worse than a boar in germany. So mostly anywhere you spawn should be OK, and it would only be some locations which would be massively poor choices and lead to a quick restart - and having more than a set of grid co-ordinates (say a view of the actual place you'll be spawning, inhabitants and all) will let you scope out anywhere that's too foolhardy, like a swamp full of crocodiles.

psyk
12-11-2011, 03:31 PM
"Let you click somewhere on the map and dump you down on that spot. Perhaps add a "random location" button for usability."

With that start your response is moot, If you can pick anywhere to stat you could choose castle of all evil and get had then you could start on top of that mountain that you can't get down because you have no skills etc

Didn't read the last part but what amounts to a difficulty slider

If you want df style losing is fun it would work but most people don't.

Serenegoose
12-11-2011, 03:36 PM
"Let you click somewhere on the map and dump you down on that spot. Perhaps add a "random location" button for usability."

With that start your response is moot, If you can pick anywhere to stat you could choose castle of all evil and get had then you could start on top of that mountain that you can't get down because you have no skills etc

But if you'd read the thread I brought up the exact same point and he answered it - he did not mean all points in the game were immediately accessible, like the final dungeon, as those would be unlocked by progressing in the main quest or other ones, or any number of other routes, but your basic 'overworld' such as it is, would be fine. Frankly, if you can see that you're spawning on a mountain, that's your business. Developers shouldn't restrict players from the freedom to play a sandbox game in the manner of their choosing just because idiots might make poor decisions - that's their business. Even a random button could easily be designed to drop you somewhere for a given value of relatively safe or at least survivable. Personally, I do think it's a great idea that I wish more contemporary games would explore. I love the idea of starting up on a shoreline with a 'shipwrecked' history, or in a dark alley of the games capital with a 'beggar' history. If a game is going to be about what I make of it, that process should affect everything, including how I begin the experience.

psyk
12-11-2011, 03:43 PM
"Best possible way to start an open world game? Let you click somewhere on the map and dump you down on that spot. Perhaps add a "random location" button for usability."

No he said the above, you can't change what the meaning of that is there is no room to interpret what you want out of it and from what your saying it sounds like you want an open but no challenge over world with dungeons (instances) of varying difficulty levels.

JackShandy
12-11-2011, 03:56 PM
I would 100% prefer to play Wizardry's intro, but I don't blame Bethesda for making theirs.

Skyrim is two games: The Main Quest, which is a linear path through hopefully entertaining pre-made obstacles, and the real game, which is about wandering around a world at will. The idea is that you can play the first game until you're ready to deal with the second.

Forcing you to play the first game for twenty-five minutes every time you restart is a bad decision, but including it is a good one. A massive amount of potential players are going to be totally bewildered if you confront them with that many decisions instantly: letting them ease themselves into the freedom and choices is a Sound Business Practice, and also a nice thing to do. I'm in favour of it.

Now in Skyrim, the linear game hurts the free-roaming one. The game forces you to play a linear sequence at the start, you start off with no character stats besides Race, a lot of decisions have been stripped out to avoid hurting the linear game. But that doesn't have to be true - I think you could definitely make a game with an easy, linear route for new players that still dumps veterans into the thick of it.

Hopefully Skyrim will be like that in the future, once the modding scene has taken off with it. I would be all over a Random Start Location mod.

Serenegoose
12-11-2011, 03:56 PM
"Best possible way to start an open world game? Let you click somewhere on the map and dump you down on that spot. Perhaps add a "random location" button for usability."

No he said the above, you can't change what the meaning of that is there is no room to interpret what you want out of it and from what your saying it sounds like you want an open but no challenge over world with dungeons of varying difficulty levels.

What you're saying only has merit if it wasn't contradicted every day by the 7 billion people on earth who usually distil their points into quick, not fully accurate statements that get across the jist of what they're trying to say without adding every single qualifier every single time. This is a forum on the internet, not a meeting on international diplomacy, and people just sort of saying this is actually just sort of fine, especially when they can clarify what they meant when asked, which is what happened. So you're just trying to drag the discussion back to make a point that sounds increasingly petty.

As for me, where on earth you pulled that from I have no idea, but I shall clarify for you precisely what I enjoy in very specific terms, since apparently everything I say on the internet is on the record and set in stone.

I'd rather a consistent overworld than the chance of taking 3 steps into a random encounter with a golden bear and having to restart (arcanum) or a world where I can go around killing bandits until brigands come at me wearing crystalline armour (oblivion) though I do not think that means 'no room for challenge' in the overworld. I generally favour characters of smaller power, such as it is that a mythical creature like a dragon or a manticore would remain a challenge if you were level capped and wearing the best armour. Bears would be formidable foes most people would have to run from, but would only be particularly aggressive if hungry or aggravated (say by skinning another bear within 40 yards) and bandit camps would almost always require a party, or very, very great care to engage. Actually far from a gentle overworld, I think it should be one where surviving is not taken for granted, and care and preparation must be made, especially in the lower levels.

casimirsblake
12-11-2011, 04:15 PM
King's Field is the Doom of the RPG genre.

A touch late, admittedly, but there - fixed that for you.

Anyway...

Skyrim is not nearly as clunky or unoptimised as Oblivion. Whether it's better than Morrowind or not (who the hell cares?), it is an edition of TES that is entirely fun and playable without modding. Which is an achievement in itself.

(Had to use the mouse control INI tweaks though, it was horrible by default. Mouse acceleration should be illegal and whichever bright spark decided to employ it as a default deserves to be clopped on the bonce with a brick.)

BobsLawnService
12-11-2011, 04:15 PM
Now in Skyrim, the linear game hurts the free-roaming one. The game forces you to play a linear sequence at the start, you start off with no character stats besides Race, a lot of decisions have been stripped out to avoid hurting the linear game.

I'm calling bullshit. Explain how the lack of classes have anything to do with. Hurting the linear game? If anything the stripping of classes helps the open world game because it allows players to make the decisions they want to make and be flexible enough to be whatever they want to be. No classes gives you choice instead of limiting it.

What the intro does is gives you an option right at the beginning to start the quest or do your own thing, whereas dumping the player in a random spot would force them to have one option and that is to wonder around until you find the maiun quest.

I choose options, not lack of options.

Wizardry
12-11-2011, 04:58 PM
A touch late, admittedly, but there - fixed that for you.
What?

1981 - Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord
1994 - King's Field

Plus it's an action game derived from Ultima Underworld.

I don't really understand your point. Could you explain it?


I'm calling bullshit. Explain how the lack of classes have anything to do with. Hurting the linear game? If anything the stripping of classes helps the open world game because it allows players to make the decisions they want to make and be flexible enough to be whatever they want to be. No classes gives you choice instead of limiting it.
You do know that classes in TES are mostly just templates, right? You can make custom classes, which effectively mean that the game doesn't have rigid classes. The Daggerfall character creation is praised for being one of the best character creators in gaming, giving you a whole host of options. Perhaps you should try it sometime instead of assuming you pick out of a fighter, thief and mage.

Batolemaeus
12-11-2011, 04:59 PM
I'm calling bullshit. Explain how the lack of classes have anything to do with. Hurting the linear game? If anything the stripping of classes helps the open world game because it allows players to make the decisions they want to make and be flexible enough to be whatever they want to be. No classes gives you choice instead of limiting it.

What the intro does is gives you an option right at the beginning to start the quest or do your own thing, whereas dumping the player in a random spot would force them to have one option and that is to wonder around until you find the maiun quest.

I choose options, not lack of options.

He never mentioned classes.
Also, you are not offered a choice. You have to play through the entire intro no matter what, deviating from the linear path is impossible.

thegooseking
12-11-2011, 05:37 PM
Ok, I bound stats to F1, inventory to F2, magic to F3 and journal to F4, Oblivion style (even though I rarely actually used those hotkeys in Oblivion). Now the interface is much less annoying.

Another cool thing about Skyrim is the quest compass. It works the same as Oblivion's, but unlike Oblivion, where a compass marker meant "go this way in a straight line", Skyrim is so full of impassable mountains that you still have to figure out how to get to your destination yourself (which isn't helped by the fact that the roads aren't very clear on the in-game map, so you also have to think about where roads are likely to be in that kind of geography). So until you get very close to your destination, the compass marker is only really useful as a guide to if you're going in roughly the right direction. It's kind of a nice compromise.

Also, you have no idea how much time I wasted wrestling with Oblivion's physics engine to try to put books on my bookshelves. Skyrim's bookshelves work just like chests (albeit with limited capacity), except that when you put books in them they are actually displayed on the shelves. Now, that's a total vanity thing (who's ever going to see it apart from you?), and a very minor point, but given the aforementioned time-wastage in Oblivion, I like auto-bookshelves.


Also, you are not offered a choice. You have to play through the entire intro no matter what, deviating from the linear path is impossible.

Approximately 0.5% of my time spent in Skyrim so far, a game that was released yesterday, has been linear. Are we really complaining about this?

Wizardry
12-11-2011, 05:48 PM
Approximately 0.5% of my time spent in Skyrim so far, a game that was released yesterday, has been linear. Are we really complaining about this?
No it hasn't. That 0.5% has influenced the rest of the game's design. Read my posts again.

Hensler
12-11-2011, 05:52 PM
I think my favorite thing so far is traveling around and listening to the various bards. Very well done bit of atmosphere there, especially if you have some Elder Scrolls experience.

Second favorite is finding clever ways hunt mammoths. Those big boys are mean.

Drake Sigar
12-11-2011, 06:06 PM
Is anyone else really uncomfortable by the Dark Brotherhood's exceptionally tight outfit?

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l1ax3ycp5R1qz88r6.gif

Batolemaeus
12-11-2011, 06:16 PM
Also, you have no idea how much time I wasted wrestling with Oblivion's physics [...]

Funny that you mention this, because:


<+Ulviirala> I can kick a wooden cart that probably weights 80kg or more over 30 meters away!
<+Ulviirala> you know in the cave with the bear?
<+Ulviirala> tried to get the vegetables off the cart
<+Batolemaeus> haha, that happened to me too
<+Ulviirala> kicked it in the water instead
<+Batolemaeus> me too. it flew away
I also nearly died from walking over a bone that glitched out.




Approximately 0.5% of my time spent in Skyrim so far, a game that was released yesterday, has been linear. Are we really complaining about this?

It just hurts replayability by forcing everyone trying out a new way to play through a 30 minute yawnfest. I was actually reading a magazine while the game showcased me the worst of exposition and console centric development. Hopefully someone mods it out.
Haven't bothered with the main quest since then and enjoying the world design and some of the better sidequests.

archonsod
12-11-2011, 06:52 PM
Neither it is quick. Changing weapons takes more time than in an unmodded Fallout 3. Quickly assessing which quest leads where takes longer than in Oblivion.

Erm wut? It's quicker than Fallout 3 for me, possibly because it's virtually the same system without the whole "look at wrist" anim the pipboy had whenever you opened it up. Quests you can check quite easily from the log by hitting J, you can have multiple active at a time or narrow it down to one, and set your own custom marker if you want to keep a few open and head towards one in particular. Throw in that you can access the map from the initial menu, via the M hotkey or from the journal to boot. All in all it's the best interface I've seen in TES, and a pretty good one compared to most other RPGs to boot.


Just as awkward is trying to get a quick overview of different armor or weapon stats.

It sticks a little up arrow on stuff which is better than the stuff you currently have equipped. And personally, I find a menu you can scroll through which gives you the info on the other side of the screen faster than the usual 'hover over icon until tooltip shows up' most others insist on using.


Also, when I assign a spell to my right hand, my left mouse button will activate it. I electrocuted a person I was trying to heal because of it. I know it comes from the ancient "press left mouse button to attack, but character is right handed", but come on..
Can't say that's been a problem for me, although I am of course right handed myself, so the idea "primary mouse button moves primary hand" is somewhat easier for my brain to deal with than "primary mouse button operates secondary hand" would be.


It just hurts replayability by forcing everyone trying out a new way to play through a 30 minute yawnfest. I was actually reading a magazine while the game showcased me the worst of exposition and console centric development. Hopefully someone mods it out.

Daggerfall (which wasn't available on the consoles funnily enough) had that introductory dungeon you had to climb through. Morrowind had the 'get off ship and process prisoner while creating character' thing, Oblivion had the escape from the Imperial dungeon. Skyrim's is shorter than Daggerfall and Oblivion's, it's also the first one to actually branch rather than being literally linear.

Hensler
12-11-2011, 07:05 PM
I'll agree with the mouse button things - my brain is still getting the left button equals left hand thing confused. It could come from playing a lot of consoles games, where the triggers usually match the on-screen arms when duel wielding.

Wizardry
12-11-2011, 07:07 PM
It sticks a little up arrow on stuff which is better than the stuff you currently have equipped.
What kind of sorcery is this?!

TillEulenspiegel
12-11-2011, 07:18 PM
Approximately 0.5% of my time spent in Skyrim so far, a game that was released yesterday, has been linear. Are we really complaining about this?
Are you kidding? Every single mission dungeon I've seen is linear. And formulaic. There's one path through, it ends in a final battle and then there's a shortcut out.

The bulk of your playing time will be spent on a guided path of one sort or another, unless you eschew missions entirely and just do whatever. It's a very nice theme park, and you can go on the rides in any order you like, but it is a theme park.

BobsLawnService
12-11-2011, 07:20 PM
It just hurts replayability by forcing everyone trying out a new way to play through a 30 minute yawnfest.

You must really suck at games because it took me about ten minutes. Out of the 12 hours that I've been playing the game.

Look, have you really played the game or are you just bitching for the sake of trying to show off how brilliant a game designer you think you are?

Wizardry
12-11-2011, 08:11 PM
You must really suck at games because it took me about ten minutes. Out of the 12 hours that I've been playing the game.

Look, have you really played the game or are you just bitching for the sake of trying to show off how brilliant a game designer you think you are?
Why do you keep thinking that the starting sequence being linear only affects the starting sequence? It can affect the entire game.


Well, technically you are correct if the game plays out so that the important plot locations are scattered around the open world ready for you to wander in on your travels. But if those locations open up through the main quest then you don't have to worry about accidentally stumbling into them, because you won't be able to at the start of the game.

But my point is that in open world games it's best for the player to discover the main quest for themselves. Perhaps a player stumbles into a village and hears a rumour about some occult group working from inside a dungeon nearby. Upon investigating the dungeon the player finds notes linking the occult group to the head of a wealthy and powerful merchant family operating in the heart of the capital city, with connections to the regional leaders. Alternatively, the player could walk through the gates of the largest city within the first minute of play, allowing him/her to stumble upon the main quest in another way through secret investigative missions given out by the leader of the town guard, or through sabotage quests given out by rival merchant groups, or perhaps through "accidentally" acquiring jobs from the "evil" merchant group themselves (before you realise what's going on).

There's plenty of ways to go about it without having a scripted linear starting sequence.


Sure! You can do that. A number of RPGs allow you to select various character backgrounds to influence gameplay (and perhaps even your starting statistics). You could choose between being a farmer from village X, a merchant from family Y operating in city Z, a lumberjack living on his own out in the forest etc. Each one of those can start you off in a difference place, allowing you to discover the game's plot as you go about exploring the game world as above.

Perhaps your character's background can play a direct role in which ways you can stumble across the main quest. Perhaps each of the entries into the main quest line could require minimum skills. The merchant quests could require a certain mercantile skill level. The city guard quests could require a certain combat skill level. Learning rumours about the occult group working out of a nearby dungeon could require a certain speech skill level. Then, if your background affects your starting statistics (a lumberjack may be better at combat than a merchant), your background would aid in influencing how you experience the game, without actually cutting you off from content.

thegooseking
12-11-2011, 08:24 PM
Are you kidding? Every single mission dungeon I've seen is linear. And formulaic. There's one path through, it ends in a final battle and then there's a shortcut out.

The bulk of your playing time will be spent on a guided path of one sort or another, unless you eschew missions entirely and just do whatever. It's a very nice theme park, and you can go on the rides in any order you like, but it is a theme park.

0.5% of the time was spent doing things when I couldn't have meaningfully chosen to do something else. If you're going to argue that choosing to do what you're asked is linear then you're stretching the definition of 'linear' just to be obtuse.

Nalano
12-11-2011, 09:23 PM
Played a while. It really is Oblivion with dragons.

Random thoughts:

- FPS remains high at medium settings, but then my computer overheats and dies.
- I'm not exactly sure why my character (http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e342/jonmphy/Lanos/ScreenShot4.jpg) isn't shivering.
- I'm not exactly sure NPCs have spines.
- At least two quests thus far have had problems of misfiring triggers.
- I'm not exactly sure how horses are useful if you're dragging around a companion half the time. Gallop, wait, gallop, wait.
- THEY'RE STAIRS. Stop getting stuck on the geometry!
- Hey assholes, stop hitting my horse!
- Yol! Everything's on fire. Sometimes my own voice surprises me.
- When I first came to that first town that wasn't being attacked by a dragon, I saw a dead NPC on the ground right in the center. A guard walked by, remarked, "how could anyone do this?" and kept walking. I looked up that NPC on the Elder Scrolls Wiki (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/TES_V:_Skyrim) and he was supposed to be part of a quest line as well as being a trainer and possible companion. Apparently killed by local fauna. Oh well. Related: I've noticed a lot of named NPCs wandering off and getting killed by angry mudcrabs.
- I hate the auto-leveling everything. If I learn how to blacksmith Orcish armor, suddenly all merchants sell Orcish armor as well as their components. If I'm level 5, so are the bandits, and so is the loot. If I'm level 10, so are the bandits, and so is the loot. What's the point of leveling? Such a treadmill.
- NPCs seem to travel along the roads based on where you are, not where their origins or destinations are. "Hi, I'm a pilgrim, and I'm going to X. Would you like me to point it out on the map?" And then I look on the map, and the pilgrim's halfway across the world from his destination, going the wrong way. Might as well just admit that this guy exists simply to mark a point on your map.
- I'm surrounded by Arnold Schwarzenegger. Surrounded.
- Apparently the quickest way to understand alchemy is to taste everything. Pass the hemlock!

Wizardry
12-11-2011, 09:30 PM
Don't speak ill of the best RPG of all time.

Anthile
12-11-2011, 09:35 PM
I, for one, ran into quite a few encounters I had no chance of winning or was only able to win through liberal use of poisons and health potions.